Duggan: Post minicamp roster projection

price is well worth it, imv..One of the best bangs for your bucks re sites out there, imo..Covers all sports.

to the practice squad, which I thinking he will.

LOL!

This roster is so much better

that might be debatable:

* Keeping only 5 WRs. Might need to go one more here and one less with RBs. Toney getting some carries could help.

* Some here like Kyle Murphy but not sure that is just wishful thinking.

* Defensive spots look good. The end of Sam Beal drama?

a pretty fair projection. I'm not sure about that many running backs. I think penny could be out and they will use a tight end in an h-back type of role or just bring in an extra offensive lineman.

we could carry 6 wide receivers with special teams being an emphasis.

According to his list there isn't any real surprise cuts and I believe there will be at least 1 or 2 that no one is expecting

only 10 defensive backs?

I don't think so.

This is a passing league

The Athletic is constantly having sales. At first I got one year for $30. I let it lapse, so they came back to me with 2 years for $24 ($1/month). If you're patient, you won't have to pay full price!

concerns of several WR's, I really can't see them keeping only 5. I could even see 7 make it, with dual use on ST's for the bottom guys

I disagree here, one of these positions groups needs to have 6. Gotta have speed.
But excellent write up, I appreciate the effort put into it.

In comment 15286045 GiantNatty said:

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The Athletic is constantly having sales. At first I got one year for $30. I let it lapse, so they came back to me with 2 years for $24 ($1/month). If you're patient, you won't have to pay full price!

👍🏿👍 Now you tell me! Even more of an incentive now..😎😎

In comment 15286050 ATL_Giants said:

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I disagree here, one of these positions groups needs to have 6. Gotta have speed. But excellent write up, I appreciate the effort put into it.

In this case, I'd drop one of the RBs

In comment 15286038 chick310 said:

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that might be debatable: * Keeping only 5 WRs. Might need to go one more here and one less with RBs. Toney getting some carries could help. * Some here like Kyle Murphy but not sure that is just wishful thinking. * Defensive spots look good. The end of Sam Beal drama?

Similar thought, but I'd get rid of a TE first. Don't need 4, especially when 2 of them (Smith/Toilolo) are replacement level. The other thing that stands out is the WR group has very little ST experience. Virtually none if you take out the PR/KR roles. I think the 6th WR will be a gunner-first type that ends up getting the 5th, and last, active WR spot on Sundays.

Penny doesn't factor into the offense much (5-6 plays/game), but he's a special teams cog (60% of ST snaps last year). Toilolo (38%) and Smith (31%) just don't have the same impact there.

Defensively, I'm hoping one of the CBs can show enough on the coverage units to surpass Ebner, who's useless outside of STs.

You keep your 53 best.

In comment 15286044 ChicagoMarty said:

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only 10 defensive backs? I don't think so. This is a passing league

We carried a ton of LBs last year.

...but otherwise seems reasonable, give or take a few.

For example, I think this staff likes Niko Lalos. Going into camp I see him having the edge over Ximenes.

Some things I think are more likely:

4 RB: Barkley, Booker, Armstead, Penny (Clement maybe if they don’t carry as many LBers and Barkley needs more time)
PS: Brightwell (unless he really shines in pre season)

6 WR: Golladay, Slayton, Shepard, Toney, Ross, and either Pettis/Sills
(Think with the injury history of just about everyone of these guys it’s safer to carry a 6th than rely on the health of them all)

LB: 11 total just seems like a lot. I don’t see us carrying that many.

Safety: cut Ebner, we will carry 4 (McKinney, Peppers, Love, and Ryan)

6 CB: Bradbury, Jackson, Robinson, Holmes, Yiadom, Williams

Over Elijah Penny... could save us a roster spot to use elsewhere basically.

Some tough cuts coming up.

so Ebner might indeed be expendable.

Agree more guys need to step up on a ST unit that struggled in second half of last year, surprisingly.

In comment 15286060 sb from NYT Forum said:

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...but otherwise seems reasonable, give or take a few. For example, I think this staff likes Niko Lalos. Going into camp I see him having the edge over Ximenes.

He has 5 safeties, unless you're not counting Ebner...

In comment 15286062 90.Cal said:

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Over Elijah Penny... could save us a roster spot to use elsewhere basically. Some tough cuts coming up.

Penny is a better ST player than either of them, so I'd give him the early edge if the last offensive spot is between 5th RB and 4th TE.

In comment 15286062 90.Cal said:

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Over Elijah Penny... could save us a roster spot to use elsewhere basically. Some tough cuts coming up.

Roster getting better, but not certain it has reached level to suggest there are really tough cuts yet.

Such as where?

In comment 15286057 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 15286044 ChicagoMarty said: Quote: only 10 defensive backs? I don't think so. This is a passing league We carried a ton of LBs last year.

We carried ten, plus Carter and Ximines on IR. I doubt we carry eleven this year, considering how often we'll probably play five DB's (three S, two CB). Plus you've got a guy like Coughlin who can play ILB and OLB.

Note: 24 on offense 26 on defense. I'd ask for an extra WR if I'm the offensive coordinator.

In comment 15286070 giants#1 said:

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In comment 15286062 90.Cal said: Quote: Over Elijah Penny... could save us a roster spot to use elsewhere basically. Some tough cuts coming up. Penny is a better ST player than either of them, so I'd give him the early edge if the last offensive spot is between 5th RB and 4th TE.

I didn't think about that. But Penny doesn't play gunner I think he is the punt protector but still...

I thought the idea was to give Jones more weapons, not less.

One question: 8 Offensive Lineman?

Seems short, unless we have zero quality depth worth keeping on roster.

O-line will be 2022 off-season #1 priority.

Fun discussion -

Always seems to be a lot of smoke around Kyle Murphy - hoping they have something there.

I think Clement is a long shot to make the roster - as RB #3 he'd be expected to contribute to specials (and he'd probably be available in a pinch via FA if they needed him back)

What a difference at linebacker - they really churned the mid depth chart

In comment 15286074 Marty in Albany said:

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Note: 24 on offense 26 on defense. I'd ask for an extra WR if I'm the offensive coordinator.

I don't think it's warranted, even with the uncertainty surrounding Barkley. If you want to keep a FB, fine, but do you really need three backup HB's? Seems like one too many to me, even when you factor in ST's.

In comment 15286072 chick310 said:

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In comment 15286062 90.Cal said: Quote: Over Elijah Penny... could save us a roster spot to use elsewhere basically. Some tough cuts coming up. Roster getting better, but not certain it has reached level to suggest there are really tough cuts yet. Such as where?

Your probably right curious to see the decisions they make for those final 5 or so spots, interesting more so than "tough"

Im interested to see what happens with Pettis, TJ Brunson, RJ McIntosh, Brightwell, Williams, Ebner, the Fullback position and the overall numbers they roll with for each position group.

cut him, add a 6th WR who brings the most on specials

I know Judge values specials and likes having a vet special teams captain to rely on, but it's time for one of the younger vets to take on that role

I think we add one more WR and subtract one LB.

And none play specials besides returning. Yeah I don’t see that happening.

In comment 15286075 90.Cal said:

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In comment 15286070 giants#1 said: Quote: In comment 15286062 90.Cal said: Quote: Over Elijah Penny... could save us a roster spot to use elsewhere basically. Some tough cuts coming up. Penny is a better ST player than either of them, so I'd give him the early edge if the last offensive spot is between 5th RB and 4th TE. I didn't think about that. But Penny doesn't play gunner I think he is the punt protector but still...

Doesn't matter if he's a gunner. He's still more valuable to the ST units than either Smith or Toilolo (neither of them were gunners) and was more than just the PP. If anything, I'd guess Penny's role is harder to upgrade than Smith/Toilolo's roles who I believe were mainly blockers on the FG unit (maybe also inline blockers on punts).

And 4 TE’s with them cutting Pettis doesn’t make any sense to me.

I think they keep 9 OL with Murphy earning the final spot.

Add a WR and CB.

In comment 15286077 M.S. said:

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One question: 8 Offensive Lineman? Seems short, unless we have zero quality depth worth keeping on roster. O-line will be 2022 off-season #1 priority.

If Jones turns out to be a good (or even great) quarterback, I see off-season priorities as edge rushers (since we have three whose contracts expire after 2021 unless any are re-signed), offensive linemen (particularly guard), and tight ends since Engram's contract is up after his fifth-year option.

Last season Golladay played 5 games, Ross 3. And Shep's concussion history is scary.

be surprised if we cut R. Williams. Most prognosticators considered him somewhat of a "steal," and he has excellent length for the position. I'd also be surprised if both Carter and Ximines are on the final 53.

In comment 15286069 giants#1 said:

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In comment 15286060 sb from NYT Forum said: Quote: ...but otherwise seems reasonable, give or take a few. For example, I think this staff likes Niko Lalos. Going into camp I see him having the edge over Ximenes. He has 5 safeties, unless you're not counting Ebner...

Sorry, I was unclear, I meant I thought the Giants will go with only 4 safeties.

Ebner, Yiadom, Toilolo and Anderson.

unlikely to keep five RB, but perhaps Ryan is the sixth "CB".

any longer. He is clearly at risk if some of the new guys step up at Specials.

Would think Love is serviceable enough to get into games at CB if really needed.

and add another WR. Also I think Ross is going to have to prove himself and I think Pettis might be competition there. Additionally, I think Mack might make it as he’s on STs and he’s a good blocker with ok hands.

Could be Ximines or Carter. Anderson, Brown, I think one of those cats is not on the final 53.

Why only 5 DLs? 6 seems more reasonable. So definitely reduce the # of OLBs.

And I would definitely cut a safety and keep an extra corner. As many have mentioned, you have to design a defense to deal with the passing game first.

Keeping 5 RBs and 4 TEs is not efficient. I would aim to keep more OLs. Who the hell knows how that unit is going to shape up...

Only room for some minor meaningless tweaks, in the context of game day and practice squad.

I'd swap Clement for Pettis or possibly Sills based on who has a better camp.

Swap Cam Brown for Rodarius Williams (though I like Cam).

I expect they will swap the final depth guys on and off the PS here and there (LB for CB, WR for RB) given the gameplan.

I sure wish the roster would go to 55 permanently.

Probably doesn't matter but on my roster I have Odenigbo as a DE

In comment 15286115 chick310 said:

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any longer. He is clearly at risk if some of the new guys step up at Specials. Would think Love is serviceable enough to get into games at CB if really needed.

Judge all but guaranteed Ebner a roster spot. I agree with you but we have no idea if he may be "really good in the safety room".

and add a WR Sills or Pettis. Unfortunetly there will be injuries preseason/camp so they'll be a few that will make it that weren't projected to,

Pettis makes the squad

They kept 6 of each WR and DL last year. And only 4 RB. I’d bet Williams over Yiadom at CB but that’s a close one. 8 OL seems too few but Murphy or others can probably be on the PS. I wonder if Ebner is a keeper given the high talent level in the secondary. It’s a very tight roster given how many OLBs and DBs they probably want to keep. I think 4 TE are a bit of a luxury but they kept that number last year.

Also assume, some surprise cuts.

But his attempt is decent.Duggin is knowledgeable and knows the team better than most beat writers.

I am a member of Athletic and ita well worth it.

As injuries hit, I think the staff will seek a way to retain Rodarius Williams. Maybe he'll just be a candidate for an early promotion from the practice squad. But his age suggests that the team expects a more immediate return than they would from a typical sixth-round pick.

Among the TEs, I just don't see it with Kaden Smith. If the other three are healthy at cutdown time, and a spot is needed for another position, he seems completely expendable. I actually feel the same way about Toilolo, but his reworked contract suggests that he will stick.

are David Sills, Kyle Murphy and Rodarius Williams. Murphy over one of the veterans. Sills instead of one of the TEs or RBs. Not sure how to fit Williams in.

Who are convinced that the Giants will keep 4 TE’s. Toilolo played less than 25% of the snaps last season and now the Giants added Rudolph making it less necessary to carry more than 3. I would rather see them carry and extra WR, CB, or LB rather than a 4th TE.

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they are a lot of fun.

BUT - injuries and "injuries" will end up playing a huge role in the final 53.

In comment 15286092 giants#1 said:

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In comment 15286075 90.Cal said: Quote: In comment 15286070 giants#1 said: Quote: In comment 15286062 90.Cal said: Quote: Over Elijah Penny... could save us a roster spot to use elsewhere basically. Some tough cuts coming up. Penny is a better ST player than either of them, so I'd give him the early edge if the last offensive spot is between 5th RB and 4th TE. I didn't think about that. But Penny doesn't play gunner I think he is the punt protector but still... Doesn't matter if he's a gunner. He's still more valuable to the ST units than either Smith or Toilolo (neither of them were gunners) and was more than just the PP. If anything, I'd guess Penny's role is harder to upgrade than Smith/Toilolo's roles who I believe were mainly blockers on the FG unit (maybe also inline blockers on punts).

He blocked on kick returns but so did Kaden and Toilolo... he really was just the punt protector, that was his biggest role on ST, a role Kaden and Toilolo can fill just as they can fill the FB role and I'd think they'd be better than Penny. Can you think of one play, one example of why we should keep Penny? I cant.

And yes it does matter if you are a gunner vs punt protector... teams often save roster spots for ST gunner they don't really for punt protectors...

That looks pretty good. Hard to argue, but I am more interested in who is going to move up in each position group if someone isn’t fully rehabbed or gets injured in preseason and isn’t ready to go for Game 1.

It is almost inevitable that several players will not be ready to start the season.

About wide receivers. Dangerous territory see with glass body Ross on the roster and Shepard always missing action.

I would keep 6 WR and keep two more on the practice squad. Sills has to be in contention for one of those spots. His size enough warrants it.

Maybe I have blue colored glasses on but looking at the roster in the OP, this appears to finally be a pretty good football team.

is a little light on WRs and maybe OL. And probably a little heavy on RBs and LBs.

Check out the guys with the least guaranteed money if you are looking for some possible cuts...

Quarterbacks: 2
In: Daniel Jones, Mike Glennon
Out: Clayton Thorson


Running backs: 5
In: Saquon Barkley, Devontae Booker, Corey Clement, Gary Brightwell, Eli Penny
Out: Ryquell Armstead, Taquan Mizzell, Cullen Gillaspia, Sandro Platzgummer

Wide receivers: 6
In: Kenny Golladay, Sterling Shepard, Darius Slayton, Kadarius Toney, John Ross, David Sills (possibly Pettis instead)
Out: Dante Pettis, C.J. Board, Austin Mack, Alex Bachman, Derrick

Tight ends: 3 (Rudolph may start off on PUP list; Smith or Toilolo get cut when he’s back)
In: Evan Engram, Kyle Rudolph, Kaden Smith, Toilolo
Out: Cole Hikutini, Kelvin Benjamin, Rysen John, Nakia Griffin-Stewart

Offensive linemen: 9
In: Andrew Thomas, Shane Lemieux, Nick Gates, Will Hernandez, Matt Peart, Nate Solder, Zach Fulton, Jonotthan Harrison, Kyle Murphy
Out: Kenny Wiggins, Chad Slade, Jackson Barton, Brett Heggie, Jake Burton

Defensive linemen: 5
In: Leonard Williams, Dexter Lawrence, Austin Johnson, B.J. Hill, Danny Shelton
Out: R.J. McIntosh, David Moa, Raymond Johnson

Outside linebackers: 6
In: Lorenzo Carter, Azeez Ojulari, Eleison Smith, Ifeadi Odenigbo, Cam Brown, Ryan Anderson
Out: Niko Lalos, Trent Harris, Ximines

Inside linebackers: 4
In: Blake Martinez, Tae Crowder, Reggie Ragland, Carter Coughlin
Out: Devante Downs, TJ Brunson, Cale Garrett


Cornerbacks: 6
In: James Bradberry, Adoree’ Jackson, Darnay Holmes, Aaron Robinson, Isaac Yiadom, Rodarius Williams
Out: Madre Harper, Jarren Williams, Chris Milton, Sam Beal


Safeties: 4
In: Logan Ryan, Jabrill Peppers, Xavier McKinney, Julian Love
Out: Montre Hartage, Josh Kalu, Quincy Wilson, Nate Ebner


Specialists: 3
In: K Graham Gano, P Riley Dixon, LS Casey Kreiter
Out: K/P Ryan Santoso, LS Carson Tinker

In comment 15286061 beatrixkiddo said:

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Some things I think are more likely: 4 RB: Barkley, Booker, Armstead, Penny (Clement maybe if they don’t carry as many LBers and Barkley needs more time) PS: Brightwell (unless he really shines in pre season) 6 WR: Golladay, Slayton, Shepard, Toney, Ross, and either Pettis/Sills (Think with the injury history of just about everyone of these guys it’s safer to carry a 6th than rely on the health of them all) LB: 11 total just seems like a lot. I don’t see us carrying that many. Safety: cut Ebner, we will carry 4 (McKinney, Peppers, Love, and Ryan) 6 CB: Bradbury, Jackson, Robinson, Holmes, Yiadom, Williams

5 WRS!?

take that to the bank. 6 top IMO. In years past guys were getting scholarships just because they were drafted by us. Could certainly see them cutting Carter, Ximenes, Anderson, or Brown. Possibly 2.

5 RBs doesn’t surprise me if Clement has anything left, although I see Brightwell starting on practice squad and Armstead possibly making team.

Our WR group talent wise is much deeper and not seeing them going with less than 6 there. The only teams that go with 5 are teams that have crap at the position. Duggan is pretty much applying years past roster cut downs to the current iteration of this team.

the mythical jon ross was already hurt in OTA's no fucking way he makes it over Pettis

1) I agree that someone's probably going to be added to the WR corps. I suspect that additional WR isn't on the roster now.

2) I'd be surprised to see Rodarius Williams cut. The Giants like to keep their draft picks and I doubt he makes it to the practice squad.

3) On the other hand, I expect some "surprise" veteran cuts. How much of a surprise is it if you think it's coming? The surprise will be which veteran gets cut.

4) The Giants seemed to be pretty high on Murphy. I'll be slightly surprised if he doesn't move up to the 53 this season. But competition is good. If someone else beats hm out for a job, great.

We may cut a TE Toilo and keep a rookie. Hard to say.

But overall, this "guess" is as good as any.

I don't think we will have more than perhaps one veteran cut surprise. Injuries will also of course come into play.

I also don't doubt we sign a veteran before camp.

I think Armstead, if he's recovered, can beat out Clement. He was on track to be lead back in JAX before he came down with Covid.

Pettis makes it as WR6.

They will not carry 7 OLB. One of Brown/Anderson/Ximines gets cut.

Williams will make the roster, possibly over Yiadom if they only carry 5 CB.

Also, Ebner seems this teams version of Herzlich. Will somehow make the roster even though I don't think he brings much value, even on ST's. Don't remember him standing out on specials at all last season.

I think it will be 4 RB's, 6 WR's, and 9 OL.

In the meantime, he’s a rugby seven player and shouldn’t be a significant factor in the team’s planning. I hope to see an open competition for the final DB slots, with no guarantees to vets like Ebner and Yiadom. I understand the bond between Judge and Ebner, but that’s a reason to hire him as a coach, not to bring him back as a player.

QB - Surely we can do better than Glennon; is Trubisky available (other vets will be displaced as the new crop of QBs come in)

RB - I like Gillaspia over Penny because he can play TE in a pinch; Platzgummer will surprise edging out Brightwell

WR - We need to find a place for Pettis; six receivers

TE - Toilolo is a luxury we can't afford; three tight ends

OL - Drop Harrison, add Murphy

DL - No argument

OLB - Drop Anderson, add Trent Harris

ILB - No argument

CB - No argument

Safeties - No argument

Special Teams - no argument

… and don’t call me Shirley.

Their guarantees are relatively inconsequential. The best case is that the young interior lineman are ready for prime time, and the veteran “insurance policy” backups get relegated to the street or the practice squad. My guess would have Fulton in and Harrison out, but it largely comes down to what guys like Murphy and Heggie show in camp.

...but didn't the special teams take a nosedive after Ebner got hurt last year?

In comment 15286550 mittenedman said:

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...but didn't the special teams take a nosedive after Ebner got hurt last year?

Think it was CJ Board to start...

mittenedman said:

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...but didn't the special teams take a nosedive after Ebner got hurt last year?

Yes, but the sample is very small. After Ebner was hurt at the start of the Cincinnati game, the special teams had, by far, their worst day of the season. That's a bit of a worst-case scenario: having to plug a substitute into multiple ST units on the fly. Ebner was back the next week, and actually played a higher percentage of ST snaps the final five games than he did in the ten before the injury.

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Have they announced the PS rules yet and will teams be able to protect players from being poached like last year?

And I bet at least one of them makes the team. Have to take that into consideration too.

In comment 15286532 Manny in CA said:

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QB - Surely we can do better than Glennon; is Trubisky available (other vets will be displaced as the new crop of QBs come in) RB - I like Gillaspia over Penny because he can play TE in a pinch; Platzgummer will surprise edging out Brightwell WR - We need to find a place for Pettis; six receivers TE - Toilolo is a luxury we can't afford; three tight ends OL - Drop Harrison, add Murphy DL - No argument OLB - Drop Anderson, add Trent Harris ILB - No argument CB - No argument Safeties - No argument Special Teams - no argument

Toilolo can play Fullback in a pinch alot better than Gillaspia can play TE in a pinch. At least IMO.

too many special teams only players.

replace ebner with rodarious williams

replace toilolo or kaden smith with kyle murphy

replace clement with stills

It's very rational. It'll be shaken up by injuries in camp and also by players that become available on cut down day, but all things being equal, Duggan's 53 man roster makes a lot of sense to me.

Given the current construct of the 90-man roster, I don't see the need to keep a 6th WR on the 53-man roster and the same goes for a 6th DL. It will be up to Pettis (or another WR) to force himself on to the 53-man roster with a productive camp/pre-season; the same goes for RJ McIntosh (or another DL). Meanwhile, Engram can serve as both TE and 6th WR and Odenigbo as both OLB and 6th DL. As for only keeping 8 OL, there really isn't anyone other than the main eight that can't be replaced with a roughly equivalent talent on the practice squad. Are we really that worried about Kyle Murphy being plucked off the practice squad?

These 53-man roster projections are interesting, but ultimately rendered pointless by camp injuries which continually reshuffle the deck.