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Can the NY Giants survive & thrive without a healthy Saquon?

Klaatu : 6/14/2021 2:21 pm
This guy says no.

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They could  
CMicks3110 : 6/14/2021 2:23 pm : link
I would prefer having a healthy Barkley though
...  
christian : 6/14/2021 2:27 pm : link
Of course they can. The Giants just completely made over their pass offense.

RE: ...  
eric2425ny : 6/14/2021 2:30 pm : link
In comment 15286234 christian said:
Quote:
Of course they can. The Giants just completely made over their pass offense.


+1, I think the Giants learned their lesson the last two years. They are not running everything through Barkley anymore.
survive maybe. thrive, doubtful.  
Victor in CT : 6/14/2021 2:30 pm : link
Barkley is a major threat who needs to be accounted for by the defense at all times.
They are probably going to need to so the sooner  
Jimmy Googs : 6/14/2021 2:33 pm : link
they figure it out the better.

Saquon is clearly a valuable weapon that we would all like to play and stay healthy, but it hasn't been working out that way so far.
...  
christian : 6/14/2021 2:38 pm : link
I hope the Giants are planning their offense with two things in mind with Barkley:

- If he's ready day one, no guarantee he won't be slow to get into form

- Hard to expect 16 games from him, especially this year
I don’t think it would be ideal  
beatrixkiddo : 6/14/2021 2:46 pm : link
But I think they have added some talent to a very bare unit after the draft with guys like Clement and landing Armstead. They can make a committee approach work if need be, they found success doing it last year and that was with an horrid passing attack. We have receiving weapons that teams need to account for now, that should help.
RE: ...  
eric2425ny : 6/14/2021 2:48 pm : link
In comment 15286242 christian said:
Quote:
I hope the Giants are planning their offense with two things in mind with Barkley:

- If he's ready day one, no guarantee he won't be slow to get into form

- Hard to expect 16 games from him, especially this year


I’d be surprised if he averages more than 70% of offensive snaps even when he is off the early season pitch count. He’s not a Derrick Henry type you can just grind for 90%+ snaps every week.

I was a big supporter of them drafting Barkley and still think he is a terrific player, but I’ll eat crow and admit that the anti-draft RB at #2 overall crowd are winning that debate right now. And this is a player that had almost no history of injuries coming into the league. RB’s take a beating nowadays. They always have, but let’s be honest, the size, speed, and overall athleticism of defensive players is a cut above what RB’s were facing in the 70’s and 80’s. I mean you have defensive ends running sub 4.5 40’s now and those guys are hitting you in the knees on a regular basis.
I think Saquon makes a full recovery considering the advances and  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/14/2021 2:48 pm : link
prior comparison points with guys even older than him.

But anyone expecting him to be that until at least week 4 or so is being overly optimistic. The mental hurdle is massive and you don’t get any real reps as a RB until the season starts.

If he doesn’t make close to a full recovery, not seeing this as a playoff team unless the defense is top 10 percent in league. Yeah we reworked our pass offense, but the line still doesn’t pass protect well, and the weapons as a collective are probably a bit above league average. It just seems so revolutionary because of the crap we threw out there last year. The offense needs to operate through the run through the run game. So the Giants will probably survive considering the additions, but thrive I really doubt.
I agree with everyone here  
Bill L : 6/14/2021 2:50 pm : link
but I still would have taken a flier on a mid-round RB
in the last draft, I mean  
Bill L : 6/14/2021 2:50 pm : link
.
RE: RE: ...  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/14/2021 2:51 pm : link
In comment 15286247 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 15286242 christian said:


Quote:


I hope the Giants are planning their offense with two things in mind with Barkley:

- If he's ready day one, no guarantee he won't be slow to get into form

- Hard to expect 16 games from him, especially this year



I was a big supporter of them drafting Barkley and still think he is a terrific player, but I’ll eat crow and admit that the anti-draft RB at #2 overall crowd are winning that debate right now. And this is a player that had almost no history of injuries coming into the league. RB’s take a beating nowadays. They always have, but let’s be honest, the size, speed, and overall athleticism of defensive players is a cut above what RB’s were facing in the 70’s and 80’s. I mean you have defensive ends running sub 4.5 40’s now and those guys are hitting you in the knees on a regular basis.


Going to disagree with this as a league wide thing. The game has opened up so much RBs take way less of a beating now. Unfortunately for Saquon, the Giants have been so inept that he has taken a complete beating often being hit by 4/5 guys on same play. The first two games last year it seemed like all at the same time.
RE: in the last draft, I mean  
eric2425ny : 6/14/2021 2:51 pm : link
In comment 15286250 Bill L said:
Quote:
.


Agreed, I was really hoping they would snag Michael Carter.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
eric2425ny : 6/14/2021 2:52 pm : link
In comment 15286251 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 15286247 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15286242 christian said:


Quote:


I hope the Giants are planning their offense with two things in mind with Barkley:

- If he's ready day one, no guarantee he won't be slow to get into form

- Hard to expect 16 games from him, especially this year



I was a big supporter of them drafting Barkley and still think he is a terrific player, but I’ll eat crow and admit that the anti-draft RB at #2 overall crowd are winning that debate right now. And this is a player that had almost no history of injuries coming into the league. RB’s take a beating nowadays. They always have, but let’s be honest, the size, speed, and overall athleticism of defensive players is a cut above what RB’s were facing in the 70’s and 80’s. I mean you have defensive ends running sub 4.5 40’s now and those guys are hitting you in the knees on a regular basis.



Going to disagree with this as a league wide thing. The game has opened up so much RBs take way less of a beating now. Unfortunately for Saquon, the Giants have been so inept that he has taken a complete beating often being hit by 4/5 guys on same play. The first two games last year it seemed like all at the same time.


Good point Zeke. I meant to cite the decline in offensive line play being an issue as well. And that does cover a lot of the league.
RE: RE: in the last draft, I mean  
Jimmy Googs : 6/14/2021 2:57 pm : link
In comment 15286252 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 15286250 Bill L said:


Quote:


.



Agreed, I was really hoping they would snag Michael Carter.


me too
Just want to point out  
Semipro Lineman : 6/14/2021 3:09 pm : link
that every year there are solid running backs available when team makes their final cuts. So I expect there to be at least one more running back addition to the Giants roster before the start of the season.

Also based upon the solid run results from last year (averaging 110 yards per game and 4.4 yards per rush), the Giants should be able to field a decent enough running attack to keep defenses honest which should help the passing game.

You can easily argue that the Giants being able to accomplish that last year without a strong vertical passing threat really means that the team's ability to thrive offensively will depend upon their new receiving weapons instead of the running game with or without Saquon.
RE: Survive maybe. thrive, doubtful  
Trainmaster : 6/14/2021 3:10 pm : link
+1

Yes. they can thrive if everything else clicks;  
TLong : 6/14/2021 3:30 pm : link
survive with other - minor problems and maybe make the playoffs. I don't think one player can make of break an NFL team.
Judge is building a team.  
Joe Beckwith : 6/14/2021 3:34 pm : link
While I think DGs plan was to feature SBs versatility behind a strong line and a functional WR Corp to spread D, SB got injured and the other 2 areas didn’t happen. And neither did quality depth to run with the plan. Not blaming DG, who modified ‘The Plan ‘ twice in his 3 years.
That said, Judges input on player acquisition has made the team a non -single -player focus on O and made it more versatile. In the meantime the original plan to run the ball, stop the run , play good D looks to have gotten the 2 D-oriented pieces in place.
The Giants will learn to thrive W/O SB, and whenever he IS available and how much will be a bonus to the O.
Surviving? Thriving? Driving? Jiving?  
Route 9 : 6/14/2021 3:57 pm : link
Score points. Win games. Win playoff games. That's it.
Screw the hurdling BS!  
TC : 6/14/2021 3:58 pm : link
I want to see him start trucking some LB'S and DB's. Watch what the guy in the video below did. When both Jim Brown and Ray Lewis are heaping praise on a RB, you know they're playing the game. And he did it at 205, whereas Saquon is almost 30 pounds heavier.

Healthy, or not, I consider continuing to try to run Saquon inside ultimately futile. Great moves, great hands and great speed, but he just doesn't like contact. Get him on the edge, and get him the ball in space and he'll contribute far more.

A 205 pound force of nature. - ( New Window )
A healthy Barkley probably gives you 2-3 more wins  
AnnapolisMike : 6/14/2021 4:45 pm : link
The guy in the podcast is right. Without Barkley..defenses are going to tee off on the pass. Barkley makes game planning for the Giants much more difficult. No Barkley probably makes getting to the playoffs unlikely for the Giants.
Absolutely, yes.  
mittenedman : 6/14/2021 4:45 pm : link
They couldn't last year, which is a mistake it seems they were determined not to let happen again. That is what a legit roster looks like, not dependent on any 1 player.

Recalling last year, when Barkley went down, they had no other options capable of running his zone plays (Why they kept Gallman as the #2 under those conditions is a mystery.)
Instead of turning to Gallman they started signing guys off the street who could run inside zone. When that failed (Freeman injured), they shifted to a power scheme suiting Gallman & Morris.

This year, they have a stable of solid, if unspectacular RBs. Tyrell Armstead looks like a real find.
It's water under the bridge ...  
Manny in CA : 6/14/2021 4:50 pm : link

But the should have drafted a RB right in the middle - Round 4

Instead, they drafted LB/Edge Elerson Smith at #116

The Panthers took Oklahoma St.'s RB Chuba Hubbard at 126th, a very high quality football player in 33 games - 36 TDs, 5.9 yds/game
If Saquon isn't 99% and a home run threat the offense takes a big hit  
SGMen : 6/14/2021 5:13 pm : link
Lets not kid ourselves, we'd "survive" but we would not likely consistently "thrive" without this superb HR threat.

Barkley is also a great receiving RB, far better than most and better than anyone we have on the roster now.

If Barkley is limited, hurt, pedestrian and therefore defenses don't need to focus on him the most it changes our offense and how we attack.

I believe he will be fine:
250-1300-10 (over 5.0 ypc)
70-700-5 receiving with a few HR receptions.

Simply put, we can't thrive consistently without our best offensive weapon after D. Jones (who will be very good).
I would hope so  
joeinpa : 6/14/2021 6:04 pm : link
Pretty small margin for success if it hinges on a guy who has suffered through some difficult injuries the past two years
If the OL is doing what we want  
Jim in Forest Hills : 6/14/2021 6:08 pm : link
then yes they can thrive without Saquon.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 6/14/2021 6:08 pm : link
Our offense hasn't thrived with him yet either.
RE: ...  
Semipro Lineman : 6/14/2021 6:51 pm : link
In comment 15286355 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Our offense hasn't thrived with him yet either.


Most here would take our 2018 offensive production again in a heartbeat if given the chance
RE: It's water under the bridge ...  
Semipro Lineman : 6/14/2021 6:54 pm : link
In comment 15286305 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

But the should have drafted a RB right in the middle - Round 4


Yes, thank you for reminding us two months after the draft of a guy who you saw youtube highlights of. I'm sure the Giants would feel more comfortable with a 4th round pick as their contingency plan for a pro-bowl candidate instead of already tested veterans
I have these  
Gman11 : 6/14/2021 7:01 pm : link
visions of what Barkley can do with just an average OL. Incredible things. The other running backs on the roster - not so much.
 
christian : 6/14/2021 8:00 pm : link
The 2018 Giants scored 90 more points than the 2020 Giants. They were a middle of the pack offense Barkley’s rookie year, and terrible last year.

If the Giants 23 points a game next year, it will be nothing short of a miraculous turn around.

I'd play my cards this way ....  
Manny in CA : 6/14/2021 8:18 pm : link

Start the season with the following presumption - he will NOT be available for the entire year ....

IF (big if) we do make it, only THEN if he's right that is the time to make the move. That would be a shock to apply to our opponents.
RE: RE: ...  
BrettNYG10 : 6/14/2021 8:28 pm : link
In comment 15286372 Semipro Lineman said:
Quote:
In comment 15286355 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


Our offense hasn't thrived with him yet either.



Most here would take our 2018 offensive production again in a heartbeat if given the chance


I think most people on this board are just hoping to make the playoffs. That might do that for us, but I don't think we'll be a SB contender with an average offense.
The graveyards are full of indispensable men.  
81_Great_Dane : 6/14/2021 8:48 pm : link
Saquon is a terrific weapon on offense. If he never played another game, the Giants would still have to find a way to survive and thrive.
The season hinges on Jones...  
bw in dc : 6/14/2021 9:03 pm : link
not Barkley. If Jones becomes who he needs to become we will have a successful season with or without SB.

RE: The season hinges on Jones...  
eric2425ny : 6/14/2021 9:03 pm : link
In comment 15286444 bw in dc said:
Quote:
not Barkley. If Jones becomes who he needs to become we will have a successful season with or without SB.


+1
RE: …  
Route 9 : 6/14/2021 9:29 pm : link
In comment 15286400 christian said:
Quote:
The 2018 Giants scored 90 more points than the 2020 Giants. They were a middle of the pack offense Barkley’s rookie year, and terrible last year.

If the Giants 23 points a game next year, it will be nothing short of a miraculous turn around.


Too lazy to look it up but are you accounting for the scores the defense was responsible for? I think I remember the defense scoring like 4 time that season. Maybe the special teams did as well.

It's a damn struggle to show any interest in any of those loser seasons lol
RE: RE: …  
Angel Eyes : 6/14/2021 9:40 pm : link
In comment 15286476 Route 9 said:
Quote:
In comment 15286400 christian said:


Quote:


The 2018 Giants scored 90 more points than the 2020 Giants. They were a middle of the pack offense Barkley’s rookie year, and terrible last year.

If the Giants 23 points a game next year, it will be nothing short of a miraculous turn around.




Too lazy to look it up but are you accounting for the scores the defense was responsible for? I think I remember the defense scoring like 4 time that season. Maybe the special teams did as well.

It's a damn struggle to show any interest in any of those loser seasons lol

It was three; two pick sixes by Ogletree and another by Curtis Riley.
2018 New York Giants Statistics & Players - ( New Window )
......  
Route 9 : 6/14/2021 10:10 pm : link
Shurmur's ass should've been fired the second that 2018 road game ended in Philly. No bullshit. I know everyone wants to be cute about formalities and whatever but that guy sucked. Gained nothing by keeping him around after that.
......  
Route 9 : 6/14/2021 10:15 pm : link
Ok yeah I remember all of that now. Such a forgettable year. Saquon Barkley in the rain vs Jacksonville. Probably blocked all of that garbage out because Eagles were defending champions. May you stub your fucking toe on a 100 pound dumbbell, Matt Ryan.
 
christian : 6/14/2021 10:49 pm : link
And yet that terrible Shurmur offense was demonstrably better than the Giants last year.

To get back to that level, the Giants need a number of things to improve.

15 offenses scored 400+ points last year, the Giants scored 280.

The difference between the Giants and the 16th ranked offense was more than 7 points a game.
......  
Route 9 : 6/14/2021 10:54 pm : link
A bowling pin is demonstrably better than last year's offense.
......  
Route 9 : 6/14/2021 10:57 pm : link
That was an OBJ year, too.
RE: …  
BrettNYG10 : 6/14/2021 11:25 pm : link
In comment 15286507 christian said:
Quote:
And yet that terrible Shurmur offense was demonstrably better than the Giants last year.

To get back to that level, the Giants need a number of things to improve.

15 offenses scored 400+ points last year, the Giants scored 280.

The difference between the Giants and the 16th ranked offense was more than 7 points a game.


I think Garrett held this offense back last year a bit - I also think Garrett is good enough he will adjust with a full off-season.

I can't tell if I'm just talking myself into this to be optimistic, though.
......  
Route 9 : 6/14/2021 11:31 pm : link
It's a complete combo of all bad things these last close to 10 years.

Bad injuries. Bad coaching. Bad drafting. Bad players. Bad luck. Bad everything.
Yes they can  
Giants86 : 6/15/2021 7:40 am : link
Did anyone think we could win a Super Bowl without Tiki or Shockey?
RE: The season hinges on Jones...  
Bill L : 6/15/2021 7:50 am : link
In comment 15286444 bw in dc said:
Quote:
not Barkley. If Jones becomes who he needs to become we will have a successful season with or without SB.


I agree with this 100%. And I love the way it was said. Flat, absolute, no sneer nor snark. Probably, your best post ever.
What would be ideal would be if.....  
Britt in VA : 6/15/2021 8:44 am : link
the Giants can stay .500 or better while letting Saquon take his time and do it right, then slowly begin to work him in after the 1st quarter of the season, and the Giants make a playoff push with a then healthy and battle tested Saquon just hitting his stride. That would be an ideal scenario and an added dimension that could propel them in the playoffs should they get there.
...  
christian : 6/15/2021 10:08 am : link
The Giants didn't spend at the top of UFA WR market, use a first round pick on WR, and add a veteran tight end, not not have a materially better passing game.

The Coryell system utilizes a lot of play action, but also a lot of 4 WRR air out it looks.

The Giants have to operate an effective pass game when the run isn't working. Jones is too good of a deep ball passer, and there's too much investment in the WRs/TEs to just wilt if Barkley isn't healthy.
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