out to be worse than it is, I have no idea what type of level of cheating this is considered if at all, but man these texts just seem it's about doing something wrong.
From linked SI article:
Quote:
....“Hey Bubba, it’s Gerrit Cole,” came a message from Cole’s number in January 2019. “I was wondering if you could help me out with this sticky situation,” the text continued, along with a winking emoji. “The stuff I had last year seizes up when it gets cold, can you come up with, or do you have a mix that will play better in cold weather?”
“Hey Cole, the only thing I think I can do is put more tar in it and less [Mota] stick,” Harkins responded. “I’ll play around with it and see.”
The reply from Cole’s phone: “We tried mixing the liquid in it and it definitely helped but it was a sloppy mess. I feel like incorporating a different ratio from the beginning of the process would be more ideal.”
Two weeks later, Harkins mailed Cole a made-to-order canister with more pine tar and less Mota stick than usual. Then one more message was sent from the ace’s phone: “Thanks Bubba you tha man” with an O.K. hand sign emoji.....
From what I am hearing on sport radio ..mlb averages and runs per game are already trending up. Bauer got rocked in his last start...too early to tell but again this will be interesting to watch.
MLB is a complete mess with the rule changes (i.e extra inning runner at 2nd, 7 innings Double Headers)
and MLB knew about (and I find it hard to believe they did not) they have totally mismanaged the problem. You would have think they learned something from steroids.
itself in the foot mid season. How effin dumb can you be?
Agree. I think this all comes from having to negotiate a new cab next season. I mean they couldn’t even have the DH in the NL this season. Why, because it will get used as a negotiable pawn.
Sounds as if it should have been addressed a while a ago. Said it earlier.... MLB is a total mess. The rule changes have ruined the game. They continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
no doubt they are dumb as hell for a number of reasons
is completely on MLB. This was wide spread and well known. Eno Sarris had multiple long-form pieces about this dating back to 2018. I legit felt bad for Gerrit Cole having to answer these questions like a deer in headlights. It wasn't policed at all, the league looked the other way, then these guys use science to get an additional leg up and the league finally does something. This should have been done in the off-season.
being completely reactive once the media made it an issue. There's been rumblings of this for years, yet Manfred didn't care until it became a headache for him.
being both a whistleblower and then also the face of said issue....
"Trevor Bauer (トレバー・バウアー)
@BauerOutage
If only there was just a really quick way to increase spin rate. Like what if you could trade for a player knowing that you could bump his spin rate a couple hundred rpm overnight...imagine the steals you could get on the trade market! If only that existed..."May 1, 2018
Don't care about the fact that its midseason, and more than enough words will be spilled by others about MLB's inconsistency, and I frankly don't give a shit about that.
Getting rid of cheating is good, and less strikeouts will be good too. Simple as.
Don't care about the fact that its midseason, and more than enough words will be spilled by others about MLB's inconsistency, and I frankly don't give a shit about that.
Getting rid of cheating is good, and less strikeouts will be good too. Simple as.
100% not being a dick about this but you don't find it funny that your commenting on other people commenting about a topic you don't care to hear commentary about? lol
is an employee of the owners and I get that but how about having the guts to actually show your face and explain the process/decisions and not a memo sent to the teams?
because they hope it gets the least attention and provide enough ambiguity to do nothing or create loopholes to maintain the status quo.
it was a memo to stop video taping.
it was a memo to stop using apple watches
it was a memo to stop using supplements with andro
and I'm sure there is more..
even the NFL with spygate - it was a memo - not a formal public reprimand that would have ended it quickly, but a memo because they knew they didn't want to confront it if they didn't have to.
Don't care about the fact that its midseason, and more than enough words will be spilled by others about MLB's inconsistency, and I frankly don't give a shit about that.
Getting rid of cheating is good, and less strikeouts will be good too. Simple as.
100% not being a dick about this but you don't find it funny that your commenting on other people commenting about a topic you don't care to hear commentary about? lol
My post should have been less inflammatory.
I view the lack of balls in play and continued trend toward three true outcomes as an existential issue for the sport, and I very much hope that something like this can help revert that trend. So in that sense I view this as potentially a great change for the sport. In talking with Yankees fan friends about this, they'll give me procedural arguments, where its clear they're primarily emotionally motivated, arguing based on the feared detrimental impact on Cole's performance.
I agree, that the current "brand" of baseball is less appealing than what I've been accustomed to. I think people are just frustrated by the fact certain things are quite obvious to random fans and the league puts their heads in the sand. It's been estimated up to...85%!!! of pitchers have been using substances other than rosin (which is allowed). I suspect after the season what Liam Hendricks suggested (as did Eno Sarris and others) will be what happens... an accepted universal option for pitchers. Even Donaldson in his complaints about Cole noted he didn't have an issue with pitchers using previous means but these newer substances (Spidertact, whatever this Bubba guy called his stuff etc) were just too much in the pitchers favor.
we live in an age where admission of guilt is applauded
being completely reactive once the media made it an issue. There's been rumblings of this for years, yet Manfred didn't care until it became a headache for him.
My take is different: This is the system working. Specifically, this is the role of a free press in a free society: Expose cheating/wrongdoing, marshall public pressure on institutions to change policies and/or modify their behavior. We can complain that MLB shouldn't have needed the bad press and the public pressure, but institutions tend to reflexively protect themselves, not do the right thing. So the press put a light on something MLB didn't want to talk about and the resulting pressure made them change. That's how it's supposed to work.
Have been using substances for years. Al Leiter said when he played pitchers were using stuff to get a better grip.
Ehh, like sign stealing it went from a gentleman’s agreement to a complete disregard for reasonable competition. I’m also not big on letting things slide because it was ok in the past. Baseball needs to clean it up.
is by far the worst commissioner in sports. Easily the worst in the last 30 years too. I dont go back any further than that because of my age, but i'd be shocked if there were anyone close in the history of sports.
Don't care about the fact that its midseason, and more than enough words will be spilled by others about MLB's inconsistency, and I frankly don't give a shit about that.
Getting rid of cheating is good, and less strikeouts will be good too. Simple as.
Totally agree but also agree that Bauer made this transparent a long time ago. Kind of ridiculous it took this long. I also think that placing limits of two checks for SPs and one check for relief pitchers is nonsensical. So now a pitcher can manipulate the system and go to the sticky stuff still if the umpire checks have been maxed. Why would you do that without allowing any additional checks if there is "probable cause" perhaps observed by replay officials.
Again I'm a big fan of Alonso but his take on this is pretty stupid. You're a hitter, why would you willfully advantage your opponents against you. It's clear that the substances used have greatly advantaged pitchers in their ability to manipulate the baseball.
To me this is no different than old school pitchers making cuts on the baseball with a hidden razor blade, or applying vaseline to make a spitball, which has always been viewed as out-and-out cheating.
MLB needs to establish a better substance for pitchers to use. Rosin alone is going to cause a lot of pitchers losing control of the ball.
No it won't. These pitchers have been using just rosin for almost their entire lives. All it's going to do is reduce spin-rates. I doubt the data will prove anything but the most negligent effects on location, except for reducing the amount of movement on breaking pitches.
That’s simply not true. It’s an open secret, acknowledged and accepted by hitters, that pitchers have combined rosin with sunscreen or other oily substances to make the ball more tacky. I knew kids who did this in little league in the early 90s.
Lots of the recent reporting has hitters flat out saying that’s fine, because it helps pitchers locate the ball. What hitters object to is the glue like concoctions prevalent today.
itself in the foot mid season. How effin dumb can you be?
So don’t address it? Who’s not watching because of this?
Address it yes - at the end of the season. Anytime you start screwing with rules mid season, you end up with inconsistent application and half-assed explanations.
The threat of enforcement will be interesting - see how many pitchers suddenly aren't so dominant - Cole?, Morton(pretty certain) even Bauer the big mouth.
as much as it is the timing of the movement. These guys are getting pitches to break late.
That makes hitters struggle to pick up breaking stuff but it is also is wrecking the umpires ability to call balls and strikes.
So much about baseball is up in the air right now and the labor negotiations are going to be brutal and the MLB will not be able to climb out of the hole being dug
And blame the balls for being too slick.. sounds like Japan has the right idea, the balls some pre tacked.. all the balls. It’s actually a safety thing to help them throw the balls straighter. MLB is stupid.. more and more I’ve stopped watching.
itself in the foot mid season. How effin dumb can you be?
So don’t address it? Who’s not watching because of this?
Address it yes - at the end of the season. Anytime you start screwing with rules mid season, you end up with inconsistent application and half-assed explanations.
The threat of enforcement will be interesting - see how many pitchers suddenly aren't so dominant - Cole?, Morton(pretty certain) even Bauer the big mouth.
While I don’t agree with the 2 random checks per game that’s a pretty simple task to apply and it isn’t so much a rule as it is a procedure. Either way just waiting until the season is over after admitting the problem would be even weaker from an already weak leadership.
And selfishly I want the players caught because it’s really not fun to watch only a portion of players play with a major competitive advantage. And if that’s Cole and the Yankees I root for so be it.
itself in the foot mid season. How effin dumb can you be?
So don’t address it? Who’s not watching because of this?
Address it yes - at the end of the season. Anytime you start screwing with rules mid season, you end up with inconsistent application and half-assed explanations.
The threat of enforcement will be interesting - see how many pitchers suddenly aren't so dominant - Cole?, Morton(pretty certain) even Bauer the big mouth.
While I don’t agree with the 2 random checks per game that’s a pretty simple task to apply and it isn’t so much a rule as it is a procedure. Either way just waiting until the season is over after admitting the problem would be even weaker from an already weak leadership.
And selfishly I want the players caught because it’s really not fun to watch only a portion of players play with a major competitive advantage. And if that’s Cole and the Yankees I root for so be it.
Half-assed rules.
But WTF, are they going to check the pitcher's person or the balls? Gloves, hat, belt, sleeves?
admitting there's a problem with no attempt at a solution would be an even bigger failure than it already is. I don't like the "rule" because there's loop holes but atleast its something. The dialogue being open and players now calling each other out and holding them accountable are all good things.
So IMO, put this in place, hopefully it curbs some of it, and add something more stringent in the offseason.
admitting there's a problem with no attempt at a solution would be an even bigger failure than it already is. I don't like the "rule" because there's loop holes but atleast its something. The dialogue being open and players now calling each other out and holding them accountable are all good things.
So IMO, put this in place, hopefully it curbs some of it, and add something more stringent in the offseason.
I'll admit, it may be more entertaining than watching the Yankees run the bases like T-Ball players....
I wonder if they will find another way again once they tighten the control on this issue?
It's almost as if players will continue to find ways to boost their performance, even at the risk of being caught, in order to succeed and make more money.
(can't believe I typed that lol) They use a new ball for practically every friggen batter. Hitters can request balls be changed out. Throwing a brand new ball is vastly more difficult. Go back to using a few balls a game or give the pitchers pre-tacked balls as some else mentioned.
That’s simply not true. It’s an open secret, acknowledged and accepted by hitters, that pitchers have combined rosin with sunscreen or other oily substances to make the ball more tacky. I knew kids who did this in little league in the early 90s.
Lots of the recent reporting has hitters flat out saying that’s fine, because it helps pitchers locate the ball. What hitters object to is the glue like concoctions prevalent today.
Oh well that settles it. Bet.
RE: I do think they need to address the slick balls
(can't believe I typed that lol) They use a new ball for practically every friggen batter. Hitters can request balls be changed out. Throwing a brand new ball is vastly more difficult. Go back to using a few balls a game or give the pitchers pre-tacked balls as some else mentioned.
Well they are mudded with that secret river mud to remove the factory sheen/shine... not the same as if you bought a brown new ball from Dicks Sporting Goods...
RE: RE: I do think they need to address the slick balls
(can't believe I typed that lol) They use a new ball for practically every friggen batter. Hitters can request balls be changed out. Throwing a brand new ball is vastly more difficult. Go back to using a few balls a game or give the pitchers pre-tacked balls as some else mentioned.
Well they are mudded with that secret river mud to remove the factory sheen/shine... not the same as if you bought a brown new ball from Dicks Sporting Goods...
not the same as if you bought a "brand" new ball...lol... had brown mud on my mind
If you don't know about this it's fascinating. 1 guy controls the supply of mud that is applied to every single baseball used in MLB and MiLB... south jersey, gets it from the Delaware river banks and processes it in his house.
you basically get a 10 day, paid vacation? Is that I how I read this? If so, JFC. Classic... ;)
Regardless, MLB baseball is a disaster on the field. So much of the game is unwatchable. If this helps generate more offense, this is a good step because offensive production is challenging historical lows.
Let's get rid of the shifts next. And then make the DH permanent in the NL.
From linked SI article:
“Hey Cole, the only thing I think I can do is put more tar in it and less [Mota] stick,” Harkins responded. “I’ll play around with it and see.”
The reply from Cole’s phone: “We tried mixing the liquid in it and it definitely helped but it was a sloppy mess. I feel like incorporating a different ratio from the beginning of the process would be more ideal.”
Two weeks later, Harkins mailed Cole a made-to-order canister with more pine tar and less Mota stick than usual. Then one more message was sent from the ace’s phone: “Thanks Bubba you tha man” with an O.K. hand sign emoji.....
link - ( New Window )
MLB is a complete mess with the rule changes (i.e extra inning runner at 2nd, 7 innings Double Headers)
Agree. I think this all comes from having to negotiate a new cab next season. I mean they couldn’t even have the DH in the NL this season. Why, because it will get used as a negotiable pawn.
So don’t address it? Who’s not watching because of this?
If they stop using the substance, odds are hitting numbers will go up, which would boost their ratings...
"Trevor Bauer (トレバー・バウアー)
@BauerOutage
If only there was just a really quick way to increase spin rate. Like what if you could trade for a player knowing that you could bump his spin rate a couple hundred rpm overnight...imagine the steals you could get on the trade market! If only that existed..."May 1, 2018
Getting rid of cheating is good, and less strikeouts will be good too. Simple as.
Getting rid of cheating is good, and less strikeouts will be good too. Simple as.
100% not being a dick about this but you don't find it funny that your commenting on other people commenting about a topic you don't care to hear commentary about? lol
Accountability seems to be a sometimes-thing with this idiot.
it was a memo to stop video taping.
it was a memo to stop using apple watches
it was a memo to stop using supplements with andro
and I'm sure there is more..
even the NFL with spygate - it was a memo - not a formal public reprimand that would have ended it quickly, but a memo because they knew they didn't want to confront it if they didn't have to.
Quote:
Don't care about the fact that its midseason, and more than enough words will be spilled by others about MLB's inconsistency, and I frankly don't give a shit about that.
Getting rid of cheating is good, and less strikeouts will be good too. Simple as.
100% not being a dick about this but you don't find it funny that your commenting on other people commenting about a topic you don't care to hear commentary about? lol
My post should have been less inflammatory.
I view the lack of balls in play and continued trend toward three true outcomes as an existential issue for the sport, and I very much hope that something like this can help revert that trend. So in that sense I view this as potentially a great change for the sport. In talking with Yankees fan friends about this, they'll give me procedural arguments, where its clear they're primarily emotionally motivated, arguing based on the feared detrimental impact on Cole's performance.
Ehh, like sign stealing it went from a gentleman’s agreement to a complete disregard for reasonable competition. I’m also not big on letting things slide because it was ok in the past. Baseball needs to clean it up.
He's absolutely awful at just about everything.
Getting rid of cheating is good, and less strikeouts will be good too. Simple as.
Totally agree but also agree that Bauer made this transparent a long time ago. Kind of ridiculous it took this long. I also think that placing limits of two checks for SPs and one check for relief pitchers is nonsensical. So now a pitcher can manipulate the system and go to the sticky stuff still if the umpire checks have been maxed. Why would you do that without allowing any additional checks if there is "probable cause" perhaps observed by replay officials.
Again I'm a big fan of Alonso but his take on this is pretty stupid. You're a hitter, why would you willfully advantage your opponents against you. It's clear that the substances used have greatly advantaged pitchers in their ability to manipulate the baseball.
To me this is no different than old school pitchers making cuts on the baseball with a hidden razor blade, or applying vaseline to make a spitball, which has always been viewed as out-and-out cheating.
No it won't. These pitchers have been using just rosin for almost their entire lives. All it's going to do is reduce spin-rates. I doubt the data will prove anything but the most negligent effects on location, except for reducing the amount of movement on breaking pitches.
Lots of the recent reporting has hitters flat out saying that’s fine, because it helps pitchers locate the ball. What hitters object to is the glue like concoctions prevalent today.
Quote:
itself in the foot mid season. How effin dumb can you be?
So don’t address it? Who’s not watching because of this?
Address it yes - at the end of the season. Anytime you start screwing with rules mid season, you end up with inconsistent application and half-assed explanations.
The threat of enforcement will be interesting - see how many pitchers suddenly aren't so dominant - Cole?, Morton(pretty certain) even Bauer the big mouth.
That makes hitters struggle to pick up breaking stuff but it is also is wrecking the umpires ability to call balls and strikes.
So much about baseball is up in the air right now and the labor negotiations are going to be brutal and the MLB will not be able to climb out of the hole being dug
Quote:
In comment 15286292 section125 said:
Quote:
itself in the foot mid season. How effin dumb can you be?
So don’t address it? Who’s not watching because of this?
Address it yes - at the end of the season. Anytime you start screwing with rules mid season, you end up with inconsistent application and half-assed explanations.
The threat of enforcement will be interesting - see how many pitchers suddenly aren't so dominant - Cole?, Morton(pretty certain) even Bauer the big mouth.
While I don’t agree with the 2 random checks per game that’s a pretty simple task to apply and it isn’t so much a rule as it is a procedure. Either way just waiting until the season is over after admitting the problem would be even weaker from an already weak leadership.
And selfishly I want the players caught because it’s really not fun to watch only a portion of players play with a major competitive advantage. And if that’s Cole and the Yankees I root for so be it.
Quote:
In comment 15286297 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15286292 section125 said:
Quote:
itself in the foot mid season. How effin dumb can you be?
So don’t address it? Who’s not watching because of this?
Address it yes - at the end of the season. Anytime you start screwing with rules mid season, you end up with inconsistent application and half-assed explanations.
The threat of enforcement will be interesting - see how many pitchers suddenly aren't so dominant - Cole?, Morton(pretty certain) even Bauer the big mouth.
While I don’t agree with the 2 random checks per game that’s a pretty simple task to apply and it isn’t so much a rule as it is a procedure. Either way just waiting until the season is over after admitting the problem would be even weaker from an already weak leadership.
And selfishly I want the players caught because it’s really not fun to watch only a portion of players play with a major competitive advantage. And if that’s Cole and the Yankees I root for so be it.
Half-assed rules.
But WTF, are they going to check the pitcher's person or the balls? Gloves, hat, belt, sleeves?
So IMO, put this in place, hopefully it curbs some of it, and add something more stringent in the offseason.
So IMO, put this in place, hopefully it curbs some of it, and add something more stringent in the offseason.
I'll admit, it may be more entertaining than watching the Yankees run the bases like T-Ball players....
It's almost as if players will continue to find ways to boost their performance, even at the risk of being caught, in order to succeed and make more money.
Who'd have thought!?
Lots of the recent reporting has hitters flat out saying that’s fine, because it helps pitchers locate the ball. What hitters object to is the glue like concoctions prevalent today.
Oh well that settles it. Bet.
Well they are mudded with that secret river mud to remove the factory sheen/shine... not the same as if you bought a brown new ball from Dicks Sporting Goods...
Quote:
(can't believe I typed that lol) They use a new ball for practically every friggen batter. Hitters can request balls be changed out. Throwing a brand new ball is vastly more difficult. Go back to using a few balls a game or give the pitchers pre-tacked balls as some else mentioned.
Well they are mudded with that secret river mud to remove the factory sheen/shine... not the same as if you bought a brown new ball from Dicks Sporting Goods...
not the same as if you bought a "brand" new ball...lol... had brown mud on my mind
If you don't know about this it's fascinating. 1 guy controls the supply of mud that is applied to every single baseball used in MLB and MiLB... south jersey, gets it from the Delaware river banks and processes it in his house.
Regardless, MLB baseball is a disaster on the field. So much of the game is unwatchable. If this helps generate more offense, this is a good step because offensive production is challenging historical lows.
Let's get rid of the shifts next. And then make the DH permanent in the NL.