With all the recent news surrounding UFO sightings (on radar by military aircraft, ships, pilot visuals) not to mention statements by high level government officials around the world, as well as astronauts, I cannot believe the relative lack of attention this is getting in the media. The implications of these events are potentially world changing.
Needless to say, I am fascinated and exited about the possibilities. So what are these vehicles? My list of possibilities are the following; would love to hear anyone else's ideas on this.....
(1) Hoax perpetrated on government/military
(2) Hoax perpetrated by U.S. Govt.
(3) U.S. technology.
(4) Foreign Govt. technology.
(5) Private Industry technology.
(6) Alien technology.
What else could it be?
And nobody cares.
If it's not us, I suspect it's not from our planet. And...the argument against it being us is these UAPs have not avoided other U.S. military assets that have been conducting exercises and/or operations. That seems like something military and intelligence leaders wouldn't do with deeply classified assets, I'm guessing.
A friend of mine has told me more than once we're barking up the wrong tree thinking whatever it is, is coming from space.
2) The crafts observed and recorded for the past 70 years + are not part of any known U.S. military program. They are also not part of any dark U.S. military program.
There are two possible options here.
1) These craft are from our known adversaries, China or Russia.
2) These craft are from somewhere else.
These craft have demonstrated the capability of dropping from 80,000 feet to sea level in less than a second. They have shown instantaneous acceleration. They break the sound barrier without sonic booms. They can travel from air to water to air without damage. They can accelerate at hundreds of miles an hour and stop instantaneously and can make right angle turns without slowing down. These craft sustain g forces in the thousands with out apparent damage. These craft have no observable flight surfaces, no obvious source of propulsion, no heat blooms, no exhaust. Lastly, these craft have been breaching U.S. military airspace for seven plus decades with impunity. We can't stop them. We don't even know what they are. We do know they aren't ours.
So the question really becomes have China or Russia developed technology which is estimated to be at least 1,000 years ahead of the most advanced U.S. technology? Side note - this would be the single biggest intelligence failure in the history of the country. Or, are these craft from somewhere else.
Which seems the most logical to you?
I have no doubt these phenomena are real, what it is I’m not exactly sure and is kind of crazy to think about, it may not be ‘aliens’ in the conventional sense.
To summarize where we are in clear terms I think it’s really beneficial:
1- The Pentagon has said the evidence presented is authentic
2- a task force report is due by the end of the month
3- The Pentagon has also confirmed that the phenomena implicated in the media published all over the world is not United States technology, secret or otherwise
4 - lue Elizondo former pentagon official assigned to deal with aerial threats and UFOs has come out and said It’s not ours, it’s not foreign adversarial technology either
5 - that leaves it up to us what we think it is
I think it’s a higher consciousness of some kind meddling in our lives but I’m not sure why. There may not be a purpose, it could all be for fun.
They could’ve been here the whole time, in our atmosphere, in our oceans who knows.
The government has without question covered up what they know and do not know and I think that’s the big secret they do not want us to know just how little they know about these incursions around our military weaponry and nuclear facilities, which has a massive track record and national security implications going back decades. There is no doubt this phenomenon is interested in our nuclear weapons to the point where operations to essentially lure in UFO craft have been undertaken. Our entire nuclear naval fleet is telling you they see these things on a daily basis over periods of years on both coasts. They have been captured optically, on video, and on radar above and under the oceans. And the technology lead required to do what these things are doing is between 50 and 1000 years ahead, beyond next generation technology.
In short, it ain’t us. It ain’t China. It ain’t Russia - they too for decades have experienced the same phenomena.
NASA is finally going to study it after decades of silence, denial, and ridicule. The stigma is slowly going away.
About lures- As an avid fisherman I went the other day and I got to thinking what a lure must look like to a fish. It mimics things that are in their environment, but it is made by an entire world full of species that they have no clue about - The lure is designed to attract the attention and elicit a response. Sometimes the lure is designed to be natural, other times metallic and shiny it’s erratic behavior and reflective properties eliciting the response.
The lure and the fisherman is not perfect, if you hit a snag or are you tie a poor knot the lure comes undone. If you don’t present the lure correctly it doesn’t work. Essentially you have a marvel of the machine age tied to a piece of monofilament so it looks invisible, but it’s actually connected to a fairly rudimentary tool from our perspective. Essentially a stick and a string. What it must be like for fish to swim by these foreign objects. If they could think like we do what would they be thinking, what would they be thinking about the lures that line the stream beds and lakes and oceans over the world. In a sense I think we are coming to terms with just what this means right now in our lifetimes and I can’t believe it’s actually happening.
I never thought this topic would reach the level of legitimacy that it has. The ride alone has been amazing. I hope the destination and the outcome is equally were warning and I hope humans as a species come together and evolve positively from it
I concur...Great analogy
Awesome post.
I actually had a similar thought last year. I had a mouse problem outside my house due to all kinds of deforestation/construction going on in the area.
I would catch them live in a 5 gallon bucket and release them in a field.
Reading up on it - it was recommended releasing mice at least a few miles away, as any closer and they potentially find their way back.
To a mouse, the thought of the distance between say New York City and Baltimore would be beyond comprehension. To us, its a mere couple of hours in a car.
We think of these galactic distances in the framework of our own understanding. If a lifeform were to have a few thousand (maybe million) years of evolution on us - who knows what technology comes with it
We think of these galactic distances in the framework of our own understanding. If a lifeform were to have a few thousand (maybe million) years of evolution on us - who knows what technology comes with it
The same can be said of our understanding of 'time'. Einstein postulated that time was an illusion. His proof of time dilation showed the 'relative' aspects of time. In other words, there're are a lot of things we don't comprehend... perhaps the 'laws' of physics are merely suggestions.
(7) Time traveling historians from the distant future.
I don’t believe that either.
I tend to believe it is some sort of optics thing but who the hell knows.
I agree that IF an extraterrestrial civilization has been visiting the Earth for decades without wiping us out, that fact would be truly remarkable. However, I have a really hard time believing such an advanced civilization capable of travel between the stars would be unable to avoid detection.
These observations being of human (not necessarily US) origin are much more plausible and therefore very much less interesting to me; almost a "nothing burger" IMHO.
Until there is irrefutable evidence provided, this just isn't worth much time discussing (see Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster etc.)
Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence: The Case of Non-Local Perception, a Classical and Bayesian Review of Evidences - ( New Window )
Anyway, that speaks to Trainmasters point. If they were smart enough to get here, they’d almost certainly be smart enough to hide their detection, because clearly that’s what they are trying to do.
As far as the sea stuff goes, I was in Navy and stood a fuckton of watch. People see all sorts of shit out there, it isn’t reliable. I’ve had an obsession with aliens since I’ve been a kid, but extraordinary proof requires extraordinary evidence. All we have is the pentagon coming forward and being maybe. There could be a ton of political reasons for doing so, namely funding. With high res cameras now in everyone’s hand you think you’d have something better than some blurry big foot footage
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“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” was a phrase made popular by Carl Sagan who reworded Laplace's principle, which says that “the weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness”
I agree that IF an extraterrestrial civilization has been visiting the Earth for decades without wiping us out, that fact would be truly remarkable. However, I have a really hard time believing such an advanced civilization capable of travel between the stars would be unable to avoid detection.
These observations being of human (not necessarily US) origin are much more plausible and therefore very much less interesting to me; almost a "nothing burger" IMHO.
Until there is irrefutable evidence provided, this just isn't worth much time discussing (see Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster etc.) Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence: The Case of Non-Local Perception, a Classical and Bayesian Review of Evidences - ( New Window )
The "aliens" described by witnesses are humanoid in appearance.... hard to believe that alien life forms would evolve in similar bipedal primate forms.
Or perhaps, worm-holes or parallel dimensions?
I observed a UFO in the 60's, when I was a teenager. The experience remains vivid to this day. It was not conventional aircraft, astronomical object, swamp gas, birds, ball lightning or any other condescending B.S. explanation.
(7) Time traveling historians from the distant future.
I don’t believe that either.
I tend to believe it is some sort of optics thing but who the hell knows.
The other possibility is that it's some remnant of the code in our simulation..or just a "shiny object" in the simulation if we stick with that previous analogy...
so
(8) Further evidence of Simulation Theory
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“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” was a phrase made popular by Carl Sagan who reworded Laplace's principle, which says that “the weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness”
I agree that IF an extraterrestrial civilization has been visiting the Earth for decades without wiping us out, that fact would be truly remarkable. However, I have a really hard time believing such an advanced civilization capable of travel between the stars would be unable to avoid detection.
These observations being of human (not necessarily US) origin are much more plausible and therefore very much less interesting to me; almost a "nothing burger" IMHO.
Until there is irrefutable evidence provided, this just isn't worth much time discussing (see Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster etc.) Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence: The Case of Non-Local Perception, a Classical and Bayesian Review of Evidences - ( New Window )
I understand this point of view but that has to overlook the fact that they may very well have advanced technologies we can't even comprehend.
Interesting as hell, though. Got to wonder what secrets are worth such elaborate disinformation as GARNET and MJ12 documents.
Thanks. I was inspired by the thought while on the river fly fishing and when I got back in service and texted everyone I knew that fished about why they did so.
One person responded that they view fishing for Brook trout like encountering an alien - it was a great synchronicity
And yet they can't escape detection by our crude (likely by their standards) technologies?
I think if they wanted to be seen, we'd see them openly.
I think if they didn't want to be seen, we'd never see them.
This "we catch intriguing glimpses of them", doesn't make any sense to me IF these "UFOs" are actually extraterrestrials.
(7) Time traveling historians from the distant future.
I don’t believe that either.
I tend to believe it is some sort of optics thing but who the hell knows.
It could be a combination of things - rendelsheim forest incident comes to mind. The communication was essentially “we are you” and if you believe the binary code piece of the story that means time travelers.
If you think the binary code is bullshit - fine. “We are you” though could still be true. They could have helped our evolution along if they’ve been here … reminds me of the Bob lazar briefings he’s claimed to have read. Kindof makes some sense either way
And yet they can't escape detection by our crude (likely by their standards) technologies?
I think if they wanted to be seen, we'd see them openly.
I think if they didn't want to be seen, we'd never see them.
This "we catch intriguing glimpses of them", doesn't make any sense to me IF these "UFOs" are actually extraterrestrials.
IF the premise holds - you have no idea what their intentions are.
We do see them openly. Looking at the data 4 new unique incidents a week in the US alone.
They can appear and effectively disappear at will.
They can also shut down our nuclear weapons, jam weapons attack, jam aerial tracking devices. It’s clear they are in control whatever they are.
You strike me as someone who has not seriously looked at the evidence that has come out in recent years. I suggest you do so.
Then there’s also the appearance of beings themselves - explain the research done by John Mack on abductions - the first Harvard professor to work on such topics. He’s featured wonderfully in James Fox’s The Phenomenon which if you’ve not seen it, are on the fence, watch it immediately.
My main reasons are as follows:
(1) The sun is of the correct spectral type (G) to have planets that can support life. The general consensus is that only F (3%), G (7.6%), and K (12.1%) stars can do so. (Fifty of the closest 63 stars to the Sun are M class red dwarfs.)
(2) At 4.6 billion years old, the sun is of the right age, and is very stable.
(3) The sun is not part of a binary or trinary star system. To support life, planets must be in the “habitable zone,” that is be in an orbit around their parent star that allows liquid water to exist. That is much more difficult in binary and trinary star systems because a planet might have to be in more than one habitable zone.
(4) The solar system is in the Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy, which is far from its center, where life is impossible because of radiation and the supermassive black hole Sagittarius A.
(5) The astronomical geometry of the solar system is conducive to life. This is because the inner planets are to some extent protected from continual bombardment by comets and meteors (the dinosaurs notwithstanding) by the outer gas giants.
Why does all of this increase the chance that we have been discovered by extraterrestrials? Because there are an estimated 100 to 400 billion stars in the Milky Way. Factors like those I mentioned help narrow the list of viable candidates.
So when do I think we’ll actually make contact with extraterrestrials? Never. Any beings observing us likely have no intention of interfering, either to save us or the planet. Allowing us to occasionally view their advanced technology is likely just part of their observations, in that case by measuring our responses.
There is also the possibility that they are so advanced that they cannot communicate with us.
I think if we want to meet an alien species we will have to be the visitors by discovering interstellar travel.
Extraterrestrials have little need to annihilate us a la “War of the Worlds” or “Independence Day.” Creating anything they want from preexisting materials would almost certainly be easier than coming to a remote part of the galaxy to destroy our planet.
Aliens could easily be bipedal.
Alien Life - ( New Window )
Just saying’…
Just saying’…
Igor Sikorsky invented the helicopter in 1939 (it flew in Connecticut). A Brit named William Bourne invented the submarine and an Irishman named, JP Holland built the first practical submarine. The Nazi's did invent the first practical Jet... that's something
Or is because when those clips exist the UFO becomes something reasonably identified and cleared?
I never really believed Bob Lazar but I just watch 2 separate body language expert review his interviews and both came to the conclusion that he is not lying so now I am more intrigued about him and his story.
Like I said on the previous thread, we don't even have to get into "little green men" to label this as paradigm shifting stuff. If another country is capable of this, is that not of interest?
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I have watched many times
I never really believed Bob Lazar but I just watch 2 separate body language expert review his interviews and both came to the conclusion that he is not lying so now I am more intrigued about him and his story.
It's interesting because Christopher Melon is (I think) the most high ranking guy driving this push for disclosure and he seems to think Lazar is probably full of shit.
Link - ( New Window )
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doubtful of any of the things but the opening post asked what else it could be other than the six things listed. How about
(7) Time traveling historians from the distant future.
I don’t believe that either.
I tend to believe it is some sort of optics thing but who the hell knows.
It could be a combination of things - rendelsheim forest incident comes to mind. The communication was essentially “we are you” and if you believe the binary code piece of the story that means time travelers.
If you think the binary code is bullshit - fine. “We are you” though could still be true. They could have helped our evolution along if they’ve been here … reminds me of the Bob lazar briefings he’s claimed to have read. Kindof makes some sense either way
If any of the reported UFO encounters were time travel incidents, and not alien encounters, Bentwaters would be a perfect example. One of the most intriguing incidents to me, especially the binary message.
Someone on this thread mentioned funding, that makes a ton of sense, I know a report is due at the end of the month, but will us private citizens even see it? Also the Tic Tac/David Fravor sighting was 17years ago, kind of odd that it gets released now.
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doubtful of any of the things but the opening post asked what else it could be other than the six things listed. How about
(7) Time traveling historians from the distant future.
I don’t believe that either.
I tend to believe it is some sort of optics thing but who the hell knows.
It could be a combination of things - rendelsheim forest incident comes to mind. The communication was essentially “we are you” and if you believe the binary code piece of the story that means time travelers.
If you think the binary code is bullshit - fine. “We are you” though could still be true. They could have helped our evolution along if they’ve been here … reminds me of the Bob lazar briefings he’s claimed to have read. Kindof makes some sense either way
I believe the general hypothesis of the binary code story is they chose to do this as it is a universal computer language. The ones who believe this think this actually serves as a decent piece of evidence they are in fact future humans, who would thereby know not to leave a message in traditional language as so many different ones are spoken. In addition they would know the words would in fact be decipherable as more would be learned about binary code by humans, a fact a futurist would know.
I have no idea, it makes for an interesting thought.
This is an imperfect analogy, but the best I can do. Let's imagine scientists hear a rumor about an undiscovered tribe in the Amazon. If the tribe truly were undiscovered, one would think they would be at least a millennium behind us technologically. But with our technology right now, even with satellites, it's possible we couldn't find them if we don't have a somewhat precise idea of their location due to tree canopies and such. In that situation, might we not look with drones or people or some other combination that is detectable? And if we eventually figured out they had some pretty advanced technology and/or defense systems, might we not want to probe them before contact?
So let's now assume that they can get here but for whatever reason they can't avoid detection. If that's true, they're probing our defenses and technology--they're not just coming out and saying "hi." That could be for their own protection, but it's obviously also troubling that our best technology can't fuck with them.
One scenario is a District 9 / Vernor Vinge Deepness in the Sky situation where the aliens are somewhat near us but in some way hobbled/stranded, and they're trying to test our limits and whether they can communicate with us, take what they need from us, etc.
If they *can* avoid detection, I'm not sure why their method of contact would be fucking with our militaries. In this scenario they could presumably glean whatever they need about our military assets without direct contact. But who am I to question the motives or methods about superior beings....I just think supremely powerful beings probably wouldn't announce their presence by making clear our military can't hang.
I think there is 0% chance this is Russian, Chinese, or other domestic technology. Do you think Putin or Xi would sit on this shit and not use it for military advantage? That seems impossible to me. Similarly if it's US technology it would be getting pushed into use ASAP.
I've read a fairly good argument that if we ever encounter alien technology, it would be AI and not "alive." This could definitely be that scenario.
If these are space tourists or parallel universe tourists, why are they testing our militaries? That aspect continues to trouble me but again what can I do?
Or it's just lizard people messing with us. Definitely lizard people.
Yeah I mean this could definitely be the military faking stuff to gin up more funding. Or our pilots/equipment are not as reliable as we think. (Which honestly is probably the most likely outcome.)
So what are these vehicles?
Exactly - nobody knows. HENCE UFOs.
Now everybody jumps right to the conclusion UFOs = Extraterrestrials.
Unidentified means nobody knows what they are ... until the GOVT. can prove they came from somewhere OUTER SPACE - there really is no story.
If there is definitive proof that these things came from another solar system in the milky way or another galaxy, etc ... there is no story.
If there ever becomes any proof that there is beings from another Galaxy etc , ... they will have to rewrite MOST of History and ALL of Religions.
Google navy patents and you’ll see some pretty amazing stuff. Makes ya wonder what kind of things they have that they aren’t putting out there at all. I’d love to see what kind of technology my greatgrandkids get to grow up with (great great great grandkids for some of you old farts around here :) )
Google navy patents and you’ll see some pretty amazing stuff. Makes ya wonder what kind of things they have that they aren’t putting out there at all. I’d love to see what kind of technology my greatgrandkids get to grow up with (great great great grandkids for some of you old farts around here :) )
I agree 100% Eli about your implication/statement that we cannot be all alone in this Universe. That has to be impossible ... that there is no life anywhere else in the Universe.
Hell, there is probably other life in this Galaxy (Milky Way) which is about 100,000 LIGHT YEARS across. I googled it.
My brain cannot even fathom how long that is. Holy crap - if we can develop a space ship that travels 186,000 miles per SECOND, it would take that space ship 100,000 earth calendar years (100,000 years) traveling at 186,000 MILES PER SECOND to get from one side to another. MY brian explodes just thinking about that type of distance.
And that is just 1 FUCKING GALAXY .... How many galaxies are there out there in the Universe.
I can't think about it - my brain wants to stroke (explode) out
It is a big SPACE .... lolol and we are selling land rights on the planet earth - lololollllll ...
of the Cosmos.
My Brain explodes trying to even picture it all but, there has to be other life out there.
I just don't believe the articles and videos (that were released in the last couple of weeks) proves existence of EXTERTERESTIAL life at this point.
Lucy is going to have some "Splaining" to do sooner or later. But, I am sure I will be dead before it happens - it might take another 40 - 50 Billion BLACK HOLES swallowing each other (bringing space closer in) .. to get life closer together? Who knows?
But, there has to be some other life out there than EARTH.
Discovery Magazine - ( New Window )
Things we don't understand but still believe require a certain type of faith. Whether you do or don't believe in life outside of the planet we live on requires faith. So neither position surprises me. Neither pro nor con have any real evidence...
In today's world of hot takes, sensationalism and forced drama the very idea that this isn't getting attention should tell you all you need to know about its legitimacy.
Put some decent evidence up there about UFOs beyond some blurry pictures and it will get some attention. It has only been 70 years and still counting.
So the explanation the entire time has been you would not risk a separate military training mission to test your equipment like this.
It also doesn’t explain the sightings going back decades of identical craft With identical performance
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The fact that so many people think we are the only “intelligent” life out there is quite amusing.
Things we don't understand but still believe require a certain type of faith. Whether you do or don't believe in life outside of the planet we live on requires faith. So neither position surprises me. Neither pro nor con have any real evidence...
In today's world of hot takes, sensationalism and forced drama the very idea that this isn't getting attention should tell you all you need to know about its legitimacy.
Put some decent evidence up there about UFOs beyond some blurry pictures and it will get some attention. It has only been 70 years and still counting.
Apparently much better footage does exist so just be patient. And by the way front page news on the New York Times in 2017 was kind of unprecedented
Yeah I’ve heard that explanation too. Don’t think that’s all there is to it.
Like I said on the previous thread, we don't even have to get into "little green men" to label this as paradigm shifting stuff. If another country is capable of this, is that not of interest?
American technology fails all the time (numerous examples from just Boeing in the last 5 years alone). That's why military systems have redundancy built in and many NASA systems include multiple layers of redundancy.
Many of the artifacts aren't even "failures" of the technology. They're known limitations of the systems.
Link - ( New Window )
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in the media?
In today's world of hot takes, sensationalism and forced drama the very idea that this isn't getting attention should tell you all you need to know about its legitimacy.
Put some decent evidence up there about UFOs beyond some blurry pictures and it will get some attention. It has only been 70 years and still counting.
Apparently much better footage does exist so just be patient. And by the way front page news on the New York Times in 2017 was kind of unprecedented
And its 4 years later and where did that unprecedented news story go? Look forward to better footage and coverage on this topic too when there is some credible evidence. And I have plenty of patience and hopefully another 50-60 years left in me, so will be waiting.
Seriously. If UFOlogists would acknowledge the clearly debunked stuff isn't alien in nature, it would lend more credence to their more legit claims.
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Yeah I’ve heard that explanation too. Don’t think that’s all there is to it.
One of the servicemen touched the craft. In the woods. Still think its a lighthouse?
Why do we need to 'trick' our pilots? Isn't a plausible scenario that we're testing out new, advanced technologies and that these technologies might simply be "buggy"? We have deployed military systems with plenty of software/hardware bugs (see JSF)...
I'm confident we're not the only intelligent life in the universe.
I'm also skeptical that any of these blurry images have alien origins.
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In comment 15287212 Greg from LI said:
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Yeah I’ve heard that explanation too. Don’t think that’s all there is to it.
One of the servicemen touched the craft. In the woods. Still think its a lighthouse?
Right, it was a lighthouse. I guess it was built earlier that day too, because it was never noticed before.
I thought that was a pretty reasonable point. It makes me feel these UFOs/UAPs actually being ourselves from the future is a more viable option.
I feel like a fucking crazy person saying "time travelers from the future is more viable than aliens", which is a statement that would have you marked as batshit insane as little as a decade ago.
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if most of this shit happens near our military, isn't the most logical explanation that it's covert military projects? Maybe we can't build crafts like that, but can we trick our pilots and systems into thinking they're seeing alien-like craft? That could be useful in a huge war and perhaps best kept hidden for a "big" war against opponents with legit professional air forces, no?
Why do we need to 'trick' our pilots? Isn't a plausible scenario that we're testing out new, advanced technologies and that these technologies might simply be "buggy"? We have deployed military systems with plenty of software/hardware bugs (see JSF)...
Would you test unproven technology around nuclear assets both in the U.S and abroad you are asking for a disaster to occur. I think whatever this is it's very interested in our nuclear ability and military. It's a real problem with no solution it's almost impossible to study because it's unpredictable and hard to detect. IMO it's a ancient drone or drones that are parked deep in the ocean and come out every once and a while to check on things. Like curiosity on Mars is doing for us.
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In comment 15287221 Mike from SI said:
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if most of this shit happens near our military, isn't the most logical explanation that it's covert military projects? Maybe we can't build crafts like that, but can we trick our pilots and systems into thinking they're seeing alien-like craft? That could be useful in a huge war and perhaps best kept hidden for a "big" war against opponents with legit professional air forces, no?
Why do we need to 'trick' our pilots? Isn't a plausible scenario that we're testing out new, advanced technologies and that these technologies might simply be "buggy"? We have deployed military systems with plenty of software/hardware bugs (see JSF)...
Would you test unproven technology around nuclear assets both in the U.S and abroad you are asking for a disaster to occur. I think whatever this is it's very interested in our nuclear ability and military. It's a real problem with no solution it's almost impossible to study because it's unpredictable and hard to detect. IMO it's a ancient drone or drones that are parked deep in the ocean and come out every once and a while to check on things. Like curiosity on Mars is doing for us.
I don't know what nuclear assets you are referring to, but White Sands Missile Range is a major test facility for missiles (hence the name) and much of the development of nuclear weapons occurred there.
It also depends on what unproven technologies you are talking about. New radar systems? Sure.
I saw something at fairly close distance, in the spring of 1998 (on a rural road near Malvern PA, a suburb of Philly). It's kind of a long story, but long story short: I wasn't on anything at the time and it wasn't anything I'd ever seen before or since (and I'm not exactly a youngin'). It moved slowly and silently over my head and then took off. It wasn't a balloon, airplane, helicopter, Harrier jet, swamp gas or trick of the light.
I saw one craft. It was dark so I couldn't see the exact shape of the craft, but I do know it had a triangle of bright lights (underneath facing down). I pulled over to side of road, turned my car off and rolled down my window to see if I heard anything. There was no sound, at all. It freaked me out. A younger (more adventurous) me might have jumped out of my car, but I had seen "Fire in the Sky" 3-4 years prior, so I stayed in my car.
Wish I could've gotten a photo, but it was before smart phones.
Still don't know what it was; almost 25 years later.
I thought that was a pretty reasonable point. It makes me feel these UFOs/UAPs actually being ourselves from the future is a more viable option.
I feel like a fucking crazy person saying "time travelers from the future is more viable than aliens", which is a statement that would have you marked as batshit insane as little as a decade ago.
This. The Fermi Paradox is pretty convincing to me. Is there intelligent life out there? Probably, but then that life would need to evolve in a way it’s traveling massive distances. There’s also the timeframe issue. If it’s anything I think it’s time travelers. Or it’s the militaries across the world realizing this is good way to drum up money. Follow the money.
The astonishment over why these events aren't a bigger deal really is odd though. As are the claims that aliens have been seen "openly" and that they have the ability to control or shutdown whatever they please. Because something is unexplained doesn't make it nefarious or otherworldly. Some of these posts start veering off into paths that abductions and sightings aren't just recorded now, but that they are common. When neither is true.
I believe there is other intelligent life out there. And if there is that is trying to engage with us, I don't believe it is intentionally fucking with the military or testing our systems. It is likely probing our planet to see what exists, much like we would do.
Trying to tie explanations to unexplained objects really isn't fruitful. It's just unfounded speculation that often takes a snippet of information and uses it to try and prove validity.
“Every day,” Graves said in an interview with CBS’s “60 Minutes” that aired Sunday. “Every day for at least a couple years.”
The retired lieutenant’s matter-of-fact remark stopped “60 Minutes” correspondent Bill Whitaker, who cut in: “Wait a minute. Every day for a couple of years?”
“Mhmm,” Graves replied.
The astonishment over why these events aren't a bigger deal really is odd though. As are the claims that aliens have been seen "openly" and that they have the ability to control or shutdown whatever they please. Because something is unexplained doesn't make it nefarious or otherworldly. Some of these posts start veering off into paths that abductions and sightings aren't just recorded now, but that they are common. When neither is true.
I believe there is other intelligent life out there. And if there is that is trying to engage with us, I don't believe it is intentionally fucking with the military or testing our systems. It is likely probing our planet to see what exists, much like we would do.
Trying to tie explanations to unexplained objects really isn't fruitful. It's just unfounded speculation that often takes a snippet of information and uses it to try and prove validity.
Ultimately I'd also fall into the "I don't really care" category. For all the science fiction I watch I never actually spent much time on thinking "what if they are real". I don't know what that is but that's my attitude towards it. I suspect that aligns with most of the population and why this isn't getting more buzz. There's just too much other stuff happening around us that's definitively real and consuming our time.
“Every day,” Graves said in an interview with CBS’s “60 Minutes” that aired Sunday. “Every day for at least a couple years.”
The retired lieutenant’s matter-of-fact remark stopped “60 Minutes” correspondent Bill Whitaker, who cut in: “Wait a minute. Every day for a couple of years?”
“Mhmm,” Graves replied.
I’m going to tell you why I don’t believe this guy. If this were the case, the amount of scuttlebutt on the ship would be intense. This doesn’t happen in one person vacuum. There would be talk on the bridge and air wing command and control.
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Perhaps because for him and some of his former Navy colleagues, such sightings became a regular occurrence.
“Every day,” Graves said in an interview with CBS’s “60 Minutes” that aired Sunday. “Every day for at least a couple years.”
The retired lieutenant’s matter-of-fact remark stopped “60 Minutes” correspondent Bill Whitaker, who cut in: “Wait a minute. Every day for a couple of years?”
“Mhmm,” Graves replied.
I’m going to tell you why I don’t believe this guy. If this were the case, the amount of scuttlebutt on the ship would be intense. This doesn’t happen in one person vacuum. There would be talk on the bridge and air wing command and control.
I imagine someone would've taken a non-grainy photo of the UFOs during that time as well. And found a way to leak it. Every major news organization in this country would line up for the photos/videos and gladly spend millions to protect their source.
And yet they can't escape detection by our crude (likely by their standards) technologies?
I think if they wanted to be seen, we'd see them openly.
I think if they didn't want to be seen, we'd never see them.
This "we catch intriguing glimpses of them", doesn't make any sense to me IF these "UFOs" are actually extraterrestrials.
How do you know they "don't want to be seen"?
You keep posting in these absolutes based on your version of what you think they would do which is a bit absurd if they truly are Aliens.
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... we can't even comprehend.
And yet they can't escape detection by our crude (likely by their standards) technologies?
I think if they wanted to be seen, we'd see them openly.
I think if they didn't want to be seen, we'd never see them.
This "we catch intriguing glimpses of them", doesn't make any sense to me IF these "UFOs" are actually extraterrestrials.
How do you know they "don't want to be seen"?
You keep posting in these absolutes based on your version of what you think they would do which is a bit absurd if they truly are Aliens.
Well, if they wanted to be seen, why haven't we seen them yet?
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In comment 15287022 Trainmaster said:
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... we can't even comprehend.
And yet they can't escape detection by our crude (likely by their standards) technologies?
I think if they wanted to be seen, we'd see them openly.
I think if they didn't want to be seen, we'd never see them.
This "we catch intriguing glimpses of them", doesn't make any sense to me IF these "UFOs" are actually extraterrestrials.
How do you know they "don't want to be seen"?
You keep posting in these absolutes based on your version of what you think they would do which is a bit absurd if they truly are Aliens.
Well, if they wanted to be seen, why haven't we seen them yet?
Because not a lot of people live in the middle of nowhere...
Because that is where you find the type that say they saw a UFO...
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... we can't even comprehend.
And yet they can't escape detection by our crude (likely by their standards) technologies?
I think if they wanted to be seen, we'd see them openly.
I think if they didn't want to be seen, we'd never see them.
This "we catch intriguing glimpses of them", doesn't make any sense to me IF these "UFOs" are actually extraterrestrials.
How do you know they "don't want to be seen"?
You keep posting in these absolutes based on your version of what you think they would do which is a bit absurd if they truly are Aliens.
I agree about the absolutes.
Is it possible they just don't care very much if they're seen, on occasion?
Maybe the longer they're here, the more careless they may've gotten or the more they don't care if they're seen?
I'm not outright rejecting it. I'm 100% open to it, I just want verifiable proof of aliens, not situations with plausible explanations.
The iPhone was released in 2007 and there are supposedly "daily encounters" with alien UFOs, yet no one has managed to capture a HD photo/video of one?
I can’t see it being another country. No one else spends on that stuff as much as us as far as we know. I could see private industry doing it for sure.
But I believe we’re not alone so I could see a non-human form surveying/guiding us to an extent. I’ve always been a fan of the theory that they are below the surface of our oceans, we know less about there than we know about space. I wouldn’t be surprised by anything honestly.
Just gonna live my life and if there are aliens, I hope I’m around for that world changing event.
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In comment 15287022 Trainmaster said:
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... we can't even comprehend.
And yet they can't escape detection by our crude (likely by their standards) technologies?
I think if they wanted to be seen, we'd see them openly.
I think if they didn't want to be seen, we'd never see them.
This "we catch intriguing glimpses of them", doesn't make any sense to me IF these "UFOs" are actually extraterrestrials.
How do you know they "don't want to be seen"?
You keep posting in these absolutes based on your version of what you think they would do which is a bit absurd if they truly are Aliens.
Well, if they wanted to be seen, why haven't we seen them yet?
How do you know we haven't? No one in Govt has said these sightings "Are not Aliens". They're saying we don't know what they are.
Thank you, you said it much better than me. We can't view this via our intelligence and scientific levels given that we barely understand the Universe
Look, I haven’t studied this and I’m just talking. But maybe there are some downsides to that technology in terms of weaponry? I don’t know, like I said I’m just BSing here. But there’s just sooo much money being poured into that industry that I wouldn’t be surprised by the extent of the technology they’re still trying to master.
The physical pilot in a fighter jet is there for moral reasons as much as anything else at this point. We have drone's capable of launching precision munitions and could develop unmanned fighters as well (which would actually significantly reduce the cost) but it makes it a lot easier to go to war when you aren't risking actual human lives.
Link - ( New Window )
I doubt whether the Chinese or Russians could develop technologies capable of what we are witnessing, or that they could keep them a secret.
As someone said, one of the biggest problems is that intelligent life will likely evolve at entirely different times on different planets. An alien species visiting just a million years ago would have found nothing except early primates. We may not even be here a thousand years from now. The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. That is just one of many plausible reasons to be skeptical about claims that we have been visited by extraterrestrials.
What would be more interesting is if the government shows us what they are hiding at Area 51. The vehicles they've captured, the videos they have of beings in the vehicles, etc.
And to tell you the truth, it would only be mildly more interesting.
Whatever is out there, is pretty much just observing us. If they wanted more, it would be done already, and we wouldn't have much to say about it. We are like ants on the countertop to these beings. The government involvement doesn't change any of this. The aliens will continue to observe us. There is not going to be a giant coming out party, where we all suddenly have access to all this amazing technology and can book trips to other planets.
Many of the artifacts aren't even "failures" of the technology. They're known limitations of the systems.
I agree that technology failure does happen. I could believe one plane having some kind of malfunction and one pilot being confused.
I find it hard to believe an entire carrier group is having a malfunction across multiple systems and multiple veteran pilots are misidentifying another fighter jet with both their eyes and their equipment (which is what you would have to believe to buy Mick West's debunking theory).
I encourage you to watch the Chris Lehto videos I linked above. You have to be pretty sharp before they let you fly these multi million dollar aircraft.
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American technology fails all the time (numerous examples from just Boeing in the last 5 years alone). That's why military systems have redundancy built in and many NASA systems include multiple layers of redundancy.
Many of the artifacts aren't even "failures" of the technology. They're known limitations of the systems.
I agree that technology failure does happen. I could believe one plane having some kind of malfunction and one pilot being confused.
I find it hard to believe an entire carrier group is having a malfunction across multiple systems and multiple veteran pilots are misidentifying another fighter jet with both their eyes and their equipment (which is what you would have to believe to buy Mick West's debunking theory).
I encourage you to watch the Chris Lehto videos I linked above. You have to be pretty sharp before they let you fly these multi million dollar aircraft.
I watched the video of his "debunking" GoFast. It wasn't worth the time.
Hence the interest.
Of course it’s just a conspiracy theory but doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Supposedly the German’s had developed technology toward the end of WW2 where disc shaped objects could take off/land vertically, hover, and travel a very high rates of speed. After the war these same scientist were recruited by our intelligence agencies to continue the development of a top secret space program that is far more advanced than anything NASA is doing.
"What's fascinating to me is UFOs have always been the most difficult, but also the most easily proven cover-up by the true definition of the word out of anything that I've tackled."
John Greenewald @blackvaultcom on the UFO "cover-up".
Doesn't seem far fetched to think of a hypothetical advanced species wanting to avoid detection, but not caring that much if they are.
US intelligence experts have produced a dossier on what the government knows about unidentified aerial phenomena, examining whether decades of orb sightings constitute a national security threat.
Link - ( New Window )
I've never seen that discussed, which seems like an important aspect. But admittedly, I haven't dug too deep looking for that answer.
I've never seen that discussed, which seems like an important aspect. But admittedly, I haven't dug too deep looking for that answer.
I think the tic-tac, according to the pilots, was about 40 ft. long.
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
Military
Industrial
Complex
.
i.e Too much money changing hands
Link - ( New Window )
Doesn't seem far fetched to think of a hypothetical advanced species wanting to avoid detection, but not caring that much if they are.
Exactly. I mean we go on Safari's and explore undeveloped regions of the earth. And those that do it try not to insert themselves into the ecosystem other than to observe. But they aren't overly concerned if the Zebra's see them. Aliens may very well view us the same way.
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that is so classified that high ranking people in our government aren't privy to...is a possibility.
Of course it’s just a conspiracy theory but doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Supposedly the German’s had developed technology toward the end of WW2 where disc shaped objects could take off/land vertically, hover, and travel a very high rates of speed. After the war these same scientist were recruited by our intelligence agencies to continue the development of a top secret space program that is far more advanced than anything NASA is doing.
We didn't recruit them as much as capture them and make them work for us. Warner Von Braun was essentially the creator of NASA and he was the head of the NAZI's science/aeronautical program during the war. He eventually created the long range rocket engine and was part of (I believe) executing the first US manned space mission.
I believe it was Braun who also thought that a compelling way to take over the world would be to create a "fake" alien invasion. He thought it would be the best way to control the public and consolidate power.
Also we need to see what they look like. You know, for the psych profile and all that.
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would not feel comfortable with giving a psychological profile of the thought process of an alien without at least one in depth interview.
Also we need to see what they look like. You know, for the psych profile and all that.
Saucers, Spooks, and Kooks.... - ( New Window )
That's an interesting perspective.
On another note, I am flabbergasted this is not getting more attention.
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I believe that 'aliens' do exist. Not in the way that mainstream media refers to them or describes them but from a theological framework. In the book of Genesis, we are told that we did have visitors once before- not from another planet, but from another realm. Spiritual beings (fallen angels) that came and dwelled with men. I believe the recent uptick in attention regarding UFO's is a deception by these spiritual beings that works towards a biblical agenda (biblical prophecy).
That's an interesting perspective.
On another note, I am flabbergasted this is not getting more attention.
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In comment 15287928 Football Giants said:
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I believe that 'aliens' do exist. Not in the way that mainstream media refers to them or describes them but from a theological framework. In the book of Genesis, we are told that we did have visitors once before- not from another planet, but from another realm. Spiritual beings (fallen angels) that came and dwelled with men. I believe the recent uptick in attention regarding UFO's is a deception by these spiritual beings that works towards a biblical agenda (biblical prophecy).
That's an interesting perspective.
On another note, I am flabbergasted this is not getting more attention.
I think the government investigation of this theory is super top secret.
I meant the UFOs being "real" in general.
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In comment 15287928 Football Giants said:
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I believe that 'aliens' do exist. Not in the way that mainstream media refers to them or describes them but from a theological framework. In the book of Genesis, we are told that we did have visitors once before- not from another planet, but from another realm. Spiritual beings (fallen angels) that came and dwelled with men. I believe the recent uptick in attention regarding UFO's is a deception by these spiritual beings that works towards a biblical agenda (biblical prophecy).
That's an interesting perspective.
On another note, I am flabbergasted this is not getting more attention.
I think the government investigation of this theory is super top secret.
Yeah, super. Of all things they should be focused on, this goes right to the top of the list.
Our government…
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that is so classified that high ranking people in our government aren't privy to...is a possibility.
Of course it’s just a conspiracy theory but doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Supposedly the German’s had developed technology toward the end of WW2 where disc shaped objects could take off/land vertically, hover, and travel a very high rates of speed. After the war these same scientist were recruited by our intelligence agencies to continue the development of a top secret space program that is far more advanced than anything NASA is doing.
Look into the Nazi's Die Glocke, and then the Kecksburg PA UFO incident. There are a lot of alleged similarities between the two, which could lend credence to the further work on WW2 objects, and the work being furthered here in the U.S.
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I believe that 'aliens' do exist. Not in the way that mainstream media refers to them or describes them but from a theological framework. In the book of Genesis, we are told that we did have visitors once before- not from another planet, but from another realm. Spiritual beings (fallen angels) that came and dwelled with men. I believe the recent uptick in attention regarding UFO's is a deception by these spiritual beings that works towards a biblical agenda (biblical prophecy).
That's an interesting perspective.
On another note, I am flabbergasted this is not getting more attention.
There’s been podcasts dealing with this topic in the past year - really interesting.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 15287928 Football Giants said:
Quote:
I believe that 'aliens' do exist. Not in the way that mainstream media refers to them or describes them but from a theological framework. In the book of Genesis, we are told that we did have visitors once before- not from another planet, but from another realm. Spiritual beings (fallen angels) that came and dwelled with men. I believe the recent uptick in attention regarding UFO's is a deception by these spiritual beings that works towards a biblical agenda (biblical prophecy).
That's an interesting perspective.
On another note, I am flabbergasted this is not getting more attention.
There’s been podcasts dealing with this topic in the past year - really interesting.
Recently on somewhere in the skies it was suggested that part of the story that is very little known is that one military officer did not come back. It goes a little far to say that an abduction happened but Apparently there is a deep rabbit hole then I was aware of until recently.
All of those officers were basically separated all over the country and disbanded from their unit, Halt relatively recently gave a pretty good interview about it.
I’ve been into this for basically 20 years. During graduate school staying up all night I used to listen to coast to coast in my studio it was so much fun, borderline addicting. There are multiple podcast now they do the best of coast to coast with our pool which are always great to look back 15-20 years and listen to these things again, as well as the more recent ones where they take 20 minute chunks out of the more recent shows and put them on.
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I'm super impressed with the discussion and links and information being exchanged here. Very informative for someone who may not know much about this.
I’ve been into this for basically 20 years. During graduate school staying up all night I used to listen to coast to coast in my studio it was so much fun, borderline addicting. There are multiple podcast now they do the best of coast to coast with our pool which are always great to look back 15-20 years and listen to these things again, as well as the more recent ones where they take 20 minute chunks out of the more recent shows and put them on.
I'd love to see those best of coast to coast segments, that would be great as I used to listen to those all the time too. There's so many good podcasts out there for UFO stuff now. Lue Elizondo actually spoke about how they theorize UAP technology may work on Max Moszkowicz's podcast and the whole interview is spectacular. His podcast, mystery wire, somewhere in the skies, project unity, spaced out radio, and tons of other ones. The one guy I really don't like is Jimmy Church but I'll still listen to him when he has interesting guests on.
There is an old newspaper article from I think 1904 or so, in either Texas or maybe Oklahoma, about a craft that crashed with a tiny man not of this world killed in the crash. They buried him under a tree on the farm where it hit the windmill. They even had a grave stone for him. Of course they tried to go dig him up recently but there is nothing there. The craft pieces were dumped in a well on the property. The well is apparently highly radioactive.
The reason this one is fascinating is because it was before we were flying, and humans weren't really on alert about Aliens since the phenomenon didn't carry the stigma of today. The article is casually written and that is what leads me to believe that it's real.
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"The 1933 UFO crash in Italy recently mentioned by Lue Elizondo, has connections to Rendlesham Forest, mysterious deaths of scientists and Regans Star Wars Program." Link - ( New Window )
There is an old newspaper article from I think 1904 or so, in either Texas or maybe Oklahoma, about a craft that crashed with a tiny man not of this world killed in the crash. They buried him under a tree on the farm where it hit the windmill. They even had a grave stone for him. Of course they tried to go dig him up recently but there is nothing there. The craft pieces were dumped in a well on the property. The well is apparently highly radioactive.
The reason this one is fascinating is because it was before we were flying, and humans weren't really on alert about Aliens since the phenomenon didn't carry the stigma of today. The article is casually written and that is what leads me to believe that it's real.
Yup, I know exactly what you are talking about. In fact the place where documents on it was said to be housed just burnt down within the last month. I think if anything was there, it would have been disclosed already but the article is interesting.
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In comment 15288938 kelsto811 said:
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"The 1933 UFO crash in Italy recently mentioned by Lue Elizondo, has connections to Rendlesham Forest, mysterious deaths of scientists and Regans Star Wars Program." Link - ( New Window )
There is an old newspaper article from I think 1904 or so, in either Texas or maybe Oklahoma, about a craft that crashed with a tiny man not of this world killed in the crash. They buried him under a tree on the farm where it hit the windmill. They even had a grave stone for him. Of course they tried to go dig him up recently but there is nothing there. The craft pieces were dumped in a well on the property. The well is apparently highly radioactive.
The reason this one is fascinating is because it was before we were flying, and humans weren't really on alert about Aliens since the phenomenon didn't carry the stigma of today. The article is casually written and that is what leads me to believe that it's real.
Yup, I know exactly what you are talking about. In fact the place where documents on it was said to be housed just burnt down within the last month. I think if anything was there, it would have been disclosed already but the article is interesting.
Oh wow, I didn't know that. A little more mystery to stir the pot!
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The Nephilim
I think bringing religious stuff into an essentially scientific discussion will turn a lot of people off. Sort of like bringing Creationism into a serious discussion of the details of evolution. Just saying. I like freedom of speech:
Science has been anti-religion anti paranormal forever. So there’s that.
I think it’s also worth noting that Elizondo sites differences in philosophy on the UFO topic within government, meaning religious dogma prevents serious investigations into these incursions.
Freedom of speech, separation of church and state, objective research and scientific processes are continually stymied they are on egotistical visions of “reality”
Great incident. NY post podcast Stephen greenstreet did a breakdown of that one with nick pope. Really fantastic story
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In comment 15289022 mattlawson said:
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The Nephilim
I think bringing religious stuff into an essentially scientific discussion will turn a lot of people off. Sort of like bringing Creationism into a serious discussion of the details of evolution. Just saying. I like freedom of speech:
Science has been anti-religion anti paranormal forever. So there’s that.
I think it’s also worth noting that Elizondo sites differences in philosophy on the UFO topic within government, meaning religious dogma prevents serious investigations into these incursions.
Freedom of speech, separation of church and state, objective research and scientific processes are continually stymied they are on egotistical visions of “reality”
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In comment 15289029 Big Al said:
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In comment 15289022 mattlawson said:
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The Nephilim
I think bringing religious stuff into an essentially scientific discussion will turn a lot of people off. Sort of like bringing Creationism into a serious discussion of the details of evolution. Just saying. I like freedom of speech:
Science has been anti-religion anti paranormal forever. So there’s that.
I think it’s also worth noting that Elizondo sites differences in philosophy on the UFO topic within government, meaning religious dogma prevents serious investigations into these incursions.
Freedom of speech, separation of church and state, objective research and scientific processes are continually stymied they are on egotistical visions of “reality”
I think that you can make a much better historical case that religion has been anti science.
As Al said, religion is anti-science.
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This was 1897 in Aurora Texas. There is a History Channel show on YouTube with details. Sadly, lots of details and some evidence, but no answers.
Great incident. NY post podcast Stephen greenstreet did a breakdown of that one with nick pope. Really fantastic story
Yep. Of all the incidents out there, this one stands out the most to me. Simply because there was nothing for the paper to really gain writing that story at the time. And the treatment of the pilot being given a proper burial and religious ceremony was really fascinating. It was just matter of fact.
As Al said, religion is anti-science.
One caveat Fat Man... "Real" science is truly agnostic. Unfortunately, there is so much garbage passing for science and "settled" science is its muzzle. Relating this to UFO's, there is something out there and we have no clues. Science and theology are both stymied.
As Al said, religion is anti-science.
To intertwine science and the three Abrahamic religions as something that can work together is asinine. There's a reason the Church has fought against science for centuries now. It essentially invalidates a lot of the core text. You can still use the texts as a philosophy to life, but when a core tenet is the Earth is 6,000 years old....yeah. Science is agnostic, it doesn't disprove God, just their ideas of it.
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In comment 15289079 BamaBlue said:
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This was 1897 in Aurora Texas. There is a History Channel show on YouTube with details. Sadly, lots of details and some evidence, but no answers.
Great incident. NY post podcast Stephen greenstreet did a breakdown of that one with nick pope. Really fantastic story
Yep. Of all the incidents out there, this one stands out the most to me. Simply because there was nothing for the paper to really gain writing that story at the time. And the treatment of the pilot being given a proper burial and religious ceremony was really fascinating. It was just matter of fact.
In true Disney Cars fashion - the only explainable rationale is that the town was going to be passed by and it was drummed up for the tourism. I’m not saying I believe that or it’s solid conclusion - but that’s the caveat
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In comment 15289088 mattlawson said:
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In comment 15289079 BamaBlue said:
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This was 1897 in Aurora Texas. There is a History Channel show on YouTube with details. Sadly, lots of details and some evidence, but no answers.
Great incident. NY post podcast Stephen greenstreet did a breakdown of that one with nick pope. Really fantastic story
Yep. Of all the incidents out there, this one stands out the most to me. Simply because there was nothing for the paper to really gain writing that story at the time. And the treatment of the pilot being given a proper burial and religious ceremony was really fascinating. It was just matter of fact.
In true Disney Cars fashion - the only explainable rationale is that the town was going to be passed by and it was drummed up for the tourism. I’m not saying I believe that or it’s solid conclusion - but that’s the caveat
Was tourism a revenue driver for small town America in 1894?
I think your conclusion is partially right. This new stuff they are releasing could very well be exactly what you’re saying. The older reports before we even had driving technology couldn’t possibly be that answer.
1- skeptics are not familiar with the data
2- the govt has covered up and lied through its teeth for decades, the data of studies conducted are incongruent with the press releases.
3- there’s a major fear of ridicule in the academic and scientific communities about this subject
4 - stigmas exist to avoid the subject in the scientific community
5- Studying radio signals is a waste of time
6- What’s going on here is akin to the cargo cults of New Guinea
7- noisy negativism is completely opposite of what the data shows
8 - UFOs are real, meaning some are ET
1- skeptics are not familiar with the data
2- the govt has covered up and lied through its teeth for decades, the data of studies conducted are incongruent with the press releases.
3- there’s a major fear of ridicule in the academic and scientific communities about this subject
4 - stigmas exist to avoid the subject in the scientific community
5- Studying radio signals is a waste of time
6- What’s going on here is akin to the cargo cults of New Guinea
7- noisy negativism is completely opposite of what the data shows
8 - UFOs are real, meaning some are ET
A quote;
“ Scientific skeptics attempt to evaluate claims based on verifiability and falsifiability and discourage accepting claims on faith or anecdotal evidence. Skeptics often focus their criticism on claims they consider to be implausible, dubious or clearly contradictory to generally accepted science.”
Science has only been clearly “anti-religion” at most for the last 200 years. Maybe because science and religion come from the same basic human curiosity, trying to make sense of the natural world around us. Science has lapped religion, and has a higher hit rate, but that’s relatively recent.
Personally, I’m both religious and a firm believer there is intelligent life outside of the Earth.
The current crop of evidence is underwhelming. Great claims, great evidence and all that. If the Catholic Church rolled out a few blurry videos, and said “Who knows what that is (but wink wink pretty good chance it’s God), I’m pretty certain of the reaction we’d all have.
1- skeptics are not familiar with the data
2- the govt has covered up and lied through its teeth for decades, the data of studies conducted are incongruent with the press releases.
3- there’s a major fear of ridicule in the academic and scientific communities about this subject
4 - stigmas exist to avoid the subject in the scientific community
5- Studying radio signals is a waste of time
6- What’s going on here is akin to the cargo cults of New Guinea
7- noisy negativism is completely opposite of what the data shows
8 - UFOs are real, meaning some are ET
“Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes the possibility that there may have been an insufficient investigation to prove that the proposition is either true or false.[1] It also does not allow for the possibility that the answer is unknowable, only knowable in the future, or neither completely true nor completely false.[2] In debates, appealing to ignorance is sometimes an attempt to shift the burden of proof. In research, low-power experiments are subject to false negatives (there would have been an observable effect if there had been a larger sample size or better experimental design) and false positives (there was an observable coincidental effect). The term was likely coined by philosopher John Locke in the late 17th century.[3][4]”
I also never heard of the Cargo Cult thing mentioned in 6.I found d it an interesting study of human psychology,
On the other hand, those Navy patents loom large in the background. If these things are real and not us (present day humans) all governments would be racing to copy the technology. Did the US get there?
Personally, I believe this most recent hype of UAPs leans more towards military tech than anything.
The incident that makes me justify this happened in 1980 and is known as the Cash-Landrum incident in Texas. Look it up to read an amazing tale of what was most likely a government test of technology that didn't go as planned and unfortunately had innocent victims.
Cash-Landrum incident - ( New Window )
Personally, I believe this most recent hype of UAPs leans more towards military tech than anything.
The incident that makes me justify this happened in 1980 and is known as the Cash-Landrum incident in Texas. Look it up to read an amazing tale of what was most likely a government test of technology that didn't go as planned and unfortunately had innocent victims. Cash-Landrum incident - ( New Window )
As a former Army helicopter pilot, that story is so full of factual holes to be non-credible. Just in numbers of aircraft and the purpose of such an armada is absurd. Secondly is the location. There would have to be a serious and very traceable effort to muster that many rotary wing aircraft. When I read the story about the Chinook landing and chatting it up with the pilot, I call BS.
To say a small 2 to 3% of anomalous on identified Ariel vehicles exist, when the data produced showed it was over 20% and the correlation was actually stronger with the owner identified cases of the other ones that could be explained…. Hard to logically spin that conclusion.
Science has only been clearly “anti-religion” at most for the last 200 years. Maybe because science and religion come from the same basic human curiosity, trying to make sense of the natural world around us. Science has lapped religion, and has a higher hit rate, but that’s relatively recent.
Personally, I’m both religious and a firm believer there is intelligent life outside of the Earth.
The current crop of evidence is underwhelming. Great claims, great evidence and all that. If the Catholic Church rolled out a few blurry videos, and said “Who knows what that is (but wink wink pretty good chance it’s God), I’m pretty certain of the reaction we’d all have.
The allegation is that there’s much more evidence that has not come forward yet.
Even if it IS secret tech it does not bode well for the paradigm we’re being kept in.
It’s a lose lose no matter what
He claimed they look the way they look due to human evolution, just as we look different today compared to first humans for similar reasons.
Michael P Masters has a book on this idea and theory and in his opinion satisfies all the markers of the probability of reasons notion.
He claimed they look the way they look due to human evolution, just as we look different today compared to first humans for similar reasons.
Michael P Masters has a book on this idea and theory and in his opinion satisfies all the markers of the probability of reasons notion.
I love the "time is a flat circle" theory. For some reason, it really resonates with me.
1- skeptics are not familiar with the data
2- the govt has covered up and lied through its teeth for decades, the data of studies conducted are incongruent with the press releases.
3- there’s a major fear of ridicule in the academic and scientific communities about this subject
4 - stigmas exist to avoid the subject in the scientific community
5- Studying radio signals is a waste of time
6- What’s going on here is akin to the cargo cults of New Guinea
7- noisy negativism is completely opposite of what the data shows
8 - UFOs are real, meaning some are ET
But even this post is riddled with bias and prejudice!
Each one of the points has bias throughout it.
Skeptics aren't familiar with the data would indicate that believers are familiar with the data
In fact, there's no conclusion to be drawn from the "data". And what is called "data" to some isn't really data at all. The only thing laughable is when somebody is presented with the information that is known now and concludes that it is clear that either aliens exist or that they absolutely do not. If you are concluding something from "data", you probably need a better understanding of that term.
This isn’t a math equation or a test someone ran in a lab. It’s essentially all speculative.
I’m not a believer nor a denier. I simply am comfortable saying I don’t know because I myself have never seen one. And that’s what it would take for me to believe - my own two eyes proving it.
What "data"?? And what does his conclusion mean or represent?
Of course UFO's are real. By definition, not knowing what something is classifies it as an UNKNOWN object. Saying some aren't earthly isn't conclusive. Unless he's looking at asteroids.
Everyone should believe in UFOs for the same reason as noted above...because they haven't or cannot been identified as of yet.
But given a clear picture or video or a somebody that doesn't live out in the middle of nowhere, I am pretty sure most, if not all, of the remaining UFO sightings would be converted to IFOs...
And I'm not sure what being a "foremost expert" on a subject like this has to do with anything. One of the "foremost experts" on Bigfoot validated that a hoax of a gorilla suit in a box was proof several years back.
There are "foremost experts" on ghosts, there have been hundred of thousands of ghost sightings over the years. They have been featured prominently in literature and film often with a similar appearance of being transluscent and wearing tattered clothing. There's even references to spirits in ancient works. And yet, their proof doesn't exist, nor is there data to suggest they do. There also isn't data to conclude they don't exist.
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He studied the data. Was one of the foremost experts on the planet. His conclusion: UFOs are real. SOME UFOs are not earthly.
And I'm not sure what being a "foremost expert" on a subject like this has to do with anything. One of the "foremost experts" on Bigfoot validated that a hoax of a gorilla suit in a box was proof several years back.
There are "foremost experts" on ghosts, there have been hundred of thousands of ghost sightings over the years. They have been featured prominently in literature and film often with a similar appearance of being transluscent and wearing tattered clothing. There's even references to spirits in ancient works. And yet, their proof doesn't exist, nor is there data to suggest they do. There also isn't data to conclude they don't exist.
“Friedman relied on the argument from ignorance fallacy and didn't understand the principle of Occam's razor and thought that the quantity of evidence was more important than quality of evidence.”
That Stanton guy did an AMA on Reddit a decade ago and it was a complete disaster. He didn’t answer any questions and plugged his book constantly.
“Nickell received the 2004 Isaac Asimov Award from the American Humanist Association[44] and was a co-recipient of the 2005 and the 2012 Robert P. Balles Prize in Critical Thinking, awarded by CSICOP, now called CSI.[45] In 2000 was presented with the Distinguished Skeptic award from CSI.[46]
He was also presented an award for promotion of science in popular media at the 3rd Annual Independent Investigative Group IIG Awards, held on May 18, 2009.[47]
In October 2011 asteroid 31451 (1999 CE10) was named JoeNickell in his honor by its discoverer James E. McGaha.[48]”
I tend to agree with this foremost expert.
I don’t think we have have seen any quantitative data. We have random, conflicting accounts and observations. We have hundreds of years of these accounts, but no frame of reference . In many ways our ‘science’ are cockroaches attempting to comprehend trigonometry.
I did an alien timeline, and did sort of Walt Disney-esque cartoon drawings of the different types of aliens, starting in 1947 with some little green men, and showing the sort of imaginative variety of alien types over the years, of hairy dwarves, and cyclopean figures, and robotic forms and blobs and just all manner. Just as people would imagine; if I asked someone to imagine an alien creature, it would be all over the place. But then, with the Betty and Barney Hill case, you began to get the little big-eyed, big-headed humanoid, and that type came back and back until now, if you go into a toy store and you look at aliens, you see pretty much that's the standard model. Very unlikely that if life developed on some distant planet, that it would look so much like us. We tend to make the various entities that we're interested in in our own image. And so Bigfoot is our big, stupid cousin from the past, and ET is our futuristic relative coming from the future back to save us. These are forms of us. Of course, ghosts are transparent forms of us; angels are us with wings, and of course, vampires are us with an attitude.[41]”
It's true that some leaders of organized "religion" have been anti science. And I don’t mean to offend any Catholics out there, but I think leaders of the Catholic Church have been doing more harm than good, for the faith, for several centuries. But that's a whole other topic.
I don’t agree, however, with the idea that belief in God or being a follower of Christ, is incompatible with belief in science. I'm a chemical engineer (retired). My wife is a molecular biologist (for one of the world's largest Pharmaceutical companies). One of the Pastors at our Church was a biologist before he became a theologian.
Many great scientists believed in God. Many were Christians, including Isaac Newton. A contemporary scientist, who might not be famous, (but maybe should be) is Dr. Francis Collins. He led the International Human Genome project and is an atheist turned Christian. He's a Neurologist MD with PhD in genetics. Was atheist through med school and gradually concluded that science and belief in God aren't incompatible and that science alone can't totally explain life. He says DNA is incredibly complex and calls it "the language of God".
Belief that the earth is only 6000 years old is NOT a "core tenet" of Christianity. A very small minority of people might believe that. Most do not believe the earth was created literally in 6 - 24 hour days. The Hebrew word used in Genesis, "yom" that is translated to "day", has multiple meanings, including era, age or period of unspecified time. Each "day" in Genesis could be tens of thousands, even millions of years. It's not important. Peter even said "a day is like a thousand years to the Lord".
As far as alien life, its existence would have no effect on my belief. It's commonly accepted that Moses authored the first 5 books of the Bible, including Genesis. It's not unreasonable to believe that God made known to Moses what was important for humankind. The creation and extinction of Dinosaurs or life on other planets didn't qualify as important.
I also wouldn't rule out the visitors being humans from the future.
It's kind of cray cray and I sure wish I knew what it was I saw that night in '98.
Peace, Love and Happy Father's day!
It's true that some leaders of organized "religion" have been anti science. And I don’t mean to offend any Catholics out there, but I think leaders of the Catholic Church have been doing more harm than good, for the faith, for several centuries. But that's a whole other topic.
I don’t agree, however, with the idea that belief in God or being a follower of Christ, is incompatible with belief in science. I'm a chemical engineer (retired). My wife is a molecular biologist (for one of the world's largest Pharmaceutical companies). One of the Pastors at our Church was a biologist before he became a theologian.
Many great scientists believed in God. Many were Christians, including Isaac Newton. A contemporary scientist, who might not be famous, (but maybe should be) is Dr. Francis Collins. He led the International Human Genome project and is an atheist turned Christian. He's a Neurologist MD with PhD in genetics. Was atheist through med school and gradually concluded that science and belief in God aren't incompatible and that science alone can't totally explain life. He says DNA is incredibly complex and calls it "the language of God".
Belief that the earth is only 6000 years old is NOT a "core tenet" of Christianity. A very small minority of people might believe that. Most do not believe the earth was created literally in 6 - 24 hour days. The Hebrew word used in Genesis, "yom" that is translated to "day", has multiple meanings, including era, age or period of unspecified time. Each "day" in Genesis could be tens of thousands, even millions of years. It's not important. Peter even said "a day is like a thousand years to the Lord".
As far as alien life, its existence would have no effect on my belief. It's commonly accepted that Moses authored the first 5 books of the Bible, including Genesis. It's not unreasonable to believe that God made known to Moses what was important for humankind. The creation and extinction of Dinosaurs or life on other planets didn't qualify as important.
I also wouldn't rule out the visitors being humans from the future.
It's kind of cray cray and I sure wish I knew what it was I saw that night in '98.
Peace, Love and Happy Father's day!
As with UFOs, there is something there that is real, but defies our understanding. It's another reminder to be humble and recognize there are so many things in our lives every day that defy explanation. I'm pretty happy we humans don't know everything... I love a good mystery.
The thing is, if you were to sum up the New Testament in one word, it would be "love". Love God and love your neighbors. Peace!
It's true that some leaders of organized "religion" have been anti science. And I don’t mean to offend any Catholics out there, but I think leaders of the Catholic Church have been doing more harm than good, for the faith, for several centuries. But that's a whole other topic.
I don’t agree, however, with the idea that belief in God or being a follower of Christ, is incompatible with belief in science. I'm a chemical engineer (retired). My wife is a molecular biologist (for one of the world's largest Pharmaceutical companies). One of the Pastors at our Church was a biologist before he became a theologian.
Many great scientists believed in God. Many were Christians, including Isaac Newton. A contemporary scientist, who might not be famous, (but maybe should be) is Dr. Francis Collins. He led the International Human Genome project and is an atheist turned Christian. He's a Neurologist MD with PhD in genetics. Was atheist through med school and gradually concluded that science and belief in God aren't incompatible and that science alone can't totally explain life. He says DNA is incredibly complex and calls it "the language of God".
Belief that the earth is only 6000 years old is NOT a "core tenet" of Christianity. A very small minority of people might believe that. Most do not believe the earth was created literally in 6 - 24 hour days. The Hebrew word used in Genesis, "yom" that is translated to "day", has multiple meanings, including era, age or period of unspecified time. Each "day" in Genesis could be tens of thousands, even millions of years. It's not important. Peter even said "a day is like a thousand years to the Lord".
As far as alien life, its existence would have no effect on my belief. It's commonly accepted that Moses authored the first 5 books of the Bible, including Genesis. It's not unreasonable to believe that God made known to Moses what was important for humankind. The creation and extinction of Dinosaurs or life on other planets didn't qualify as important.
I also wouldn't rule out the visitors being humans from the future.
It's kind of cray cray and I sure wish I knew what it was I saw that night in '98.
Peace, Love and Happy Father's day!
What a great post. Well done Dr.D.
👍
The thing is, if you were to sum up the New Testament in one word, it would be "love". Love God and love your neighbors. Peace!
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I know you've had very bad experiences with your SIL and I'm sorry about that. She may have good intentions, but is really not the kind of "witness" or "disciple" a believer should aspire to be. Some believers do more harm than good, with the Bible thumping and the judging. I believe they're a small minority (these days), but they give Christians a bad name and a lot of non believers unfortunately think these misguided people represent all of us.
The thing is, if you were to sum up the New Testament in one word, it would be "love". Love God and love your neighbors. Peace!
I have never had problems with religious people. Just religious fanatics and those who want to push their religious views on others. My experience has been that you can not tell the goodness of a person by how religious they say they are. Some of the best people I know were religious and some total non believers. The same is true for horrible people. Off on a half hour for a great experience of a tooth extraction,
Absolutely true Al.
What a great post. Well done Dr.D.
👍
Thanks crick n NC! I wasn't sure how the post would be received. Appreciate your feedback!
"Immersed" in what?? It's like saying if a person immerses themselves in PFF "data" that they are an expert on analyzing football players.
Maybe arrogance is a poor word choice. Maybe delusion or foolishness is a better one to describe observational accounts as "data" and then calling a person who looks at those accounts to fit his beliefs as an "expert".
There are proverbial "experts" on Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster and other unproven topics. But what does their expertise mean and what credibility does it hold?
Neither of those terms in quotes above on this subject means a damn. Anyone can read reports and immerse themselves in the folklore. That doesn't mean they have expertise.
The facts are these: The government has been studying the phenomenon for decades, they have been caught covering it up, lying about it, engaging in disinformation about it, and they’ve ruined peoples lives Who have tried to blow the whistle on this matter. They’ve stigmatized the subject matter, and have done everything in their power to steer people away from taking this matter seriously going back decades. In short, they’ve lied through their teeth about this.
You don’t do that for no reason.
Is there some sort of science that will determine conclusively that not only does alien life exist, but that it has visited us several times a week?
Is there some sort of science that will determine conclusively that not only does alien life exist, but that it has visited us several times a week?
That's a great question.
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The facts are these: The government has been studying the phenomenon for decades, they have been caught covering it up, lying about it, engaging in disinformation about it,
I suggest you follow John Greenewald at The Black Vault and Steven Greenstreet. FOIA request redactions, classified portions of briefing and reports that are not released to the public show quite clearly the government is not disclosing all they know. That's pretty simple math.
These two working together also caught the Pentagon in a lie, to the point where press secretary was changed and statements amended when they caught the DOD in a lie. That is just one recent case post 2017 NYT article.
This stuff has been going on for decades.
Lue Elizondo's files were also "destroyed" recently
- Dowsing studies from the early 20th century were examined by geologist John Walter Gregory in a report for the Smithsonian Institution. Gregory concluded that the results were a matter of chance or explained by observations from ground surface clues
- Geologist W. A. MacFadyen tested three dowsers during 1943–1944 in Algeria. The results were entirely negative
- A 1948 study in New Zealand by P. A. Ongley tested 75 dowsers' ability to detect water. None of them was more reliable than chance. According to Ongley "not one showed the slightest accuracy."
- Archaeometrist Martin Aitken tested British dowser P. A. Raine in 1959. Raine failed to dowse the location of a buried kiln that had been identified by a magnetometer
- A 2006 study of grave dowsing in Iowa reviewed 14 published studies and determined that none of them correctly predicted the location of human burials, and simple scientific experiments demonstrated that the fundamental principles commonly used to explain grave dowsing were incorrect.
- A randomized double-blind trial in 2012 was carried out to determine whether homeopaths were able to distinguish between Bryonia and placebo by use of a dowsing method. The results were negative
Even with the above information, there are fools who will swear that dowsing truly works.
But its also not proof of anything, other than we seem to have certain flaws and weaknesses in our government.
I am asking where is the evidentiary proof that people outside the government have?
I don't think that's the case at all. Statements of proof, require proof.
I don't think we are the only planet with living life in the universe. I also don't think we are being visited by aliens. If one states definitively that we have been visited by aliens - show the proof.
It's not a difficult request.
Probably okay with that statement Bama.
In the meanwhile, can someone just produce a reasonably clear picture or video that can be examined more closely on this topic.
But its also not proof of anything, other than we seem to have certain flaws and weaknesses in our government.
I am asking where is the evidentiary proof that people outside the government have?
Said another way, there were a ton of conspiracy theories on the Kennedy assassination too. And quite certain our government needlessly redacted certain info and classified materials that they could have released over time. And maybe they even got caught in a lie or two because they were just being foolish versus nefarious.
But after nearly 60 years, the only evidential proof we have of anyone shooting in Dealy Plaza that day was a guy up on the 6th floor of the Book Depository building named Lee Harvey Oswald...
There's next to nothing to go off of and what does exist is highly debatable evidence that's at best, unclear.
It's not a difficult request.
Seems like very few credible people are stating definitively that we've been visited by aliens. The government and former high ranking officials acknowledge that these things are 1) real 2) move in ways we can't explain and 3) are not our technology (and based on comments, are not Russia or China as far as we can tell).
Inductive reasoning is taking people to the alien or future human conclusion, but it's not even necessary. There's more than enough to chew on with 1, 2, and 3 and the implications of what we think is possible.
I think it's hard to assume these are military experiments from China and Russia, because if they truly had technology that much more advanced than ours, they'd be using it to their geopolitical advantage.
Maybe our friends over in England found some secret sauce and have been messing with us?
I don't think we can write off some sort of alien/other explanation but it's not the most likely scenario. The fact that these things almost always seem to happen near military bases or carrier groups means something.
That said, most people today don't think angels regularly visit our world. For whatever reason, humans tend to see things that probably aren't real. Back when everyone was more religious, it was angels. Now, it's aliens. Is this evidence that some higher consciousness is contacting us in ways we can understand? Maybe, I guess. But the sheer number of stories, sightings, visions, etc. does not necessarily make something real.
Fermi's paradox is a toughy, as is the fact that civilizations would have to reach maturity at around the same time over vast distances across the stars. Although I'd be scared sh**less if there are actually alien visitors, I'd like it to happen while I'm alive if it's ever going to happen. But so far there's nothing definitive.
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are looking for scientific proof of something that defies science (as we know it) or a frame of reference within grasp of our knowledge. It's a tough nut to crack and it's not nice to admit, but there are some things our human minds just don't understand. This is one of those things.
I don't think that's the case at all. Statements of proof, require proof.
I don't think we are the only planet with living life in the universe. I also don't think we are being visited by aliens. If one states definitively that we have been visited by aliens - show the proof.
It's not a difficult request.
Exactly! You can hypothesize all you want all day, but you can’t be like well we aren’t sure what it is so it’s probably aliens! Especially since the only images are totally inconclusive. It shouldn’t be tough to get clear picture in this day and age.
This gets into this woo woo area that begs the question someone raised earlier, could it be that certain phenomena cannot be studied scientifically? Do we need new science, understanding of physics, or data collection methods to ascertain what's actually going on?
If you saw that line in the congressional report - new science and methods needed to study further - isn't that exactly what has been said by people claiming this phenomenon is real all along? Eric Davis, Lue Elizondo, Chris Mellon, etc, etc, etc.
What if our current science, perception, technology, physical understanding of reality isn't enough? what then?
Should we go back to thinking that nothing at all is going on? back to the bottom of plato's cave?
That said, most people today don't think angels regularly visit our world. For whatever reason, humans tend to see things that probably aren't real. Back when everyone was more religious, it was angels. Now, it's aliens. Is this evidence that some higher consciousness is contacting us in ways we can understand? Maybe, I guess. But the sheer number of stories, sightings, visions, etc. does not necessarily make something real.
Fermi's paradox is a toughy, as is the fact that civilizations would have to reach maturity at around the same time over vast distances across the stars. Although I'd be scared sh**less if there are actually alien visitors, I'd like it to happen while I'm alive if it's ever going to happen. But so far there's nothing definitive.
the bledsoe's would disagree with you
Emissaries from these supernatural abodes come to earth, sometimes under human form and sometimes as monsters. They perform wonders. They serve man or fight him. They influence civilizations through mystical revelation.
These matters are the subject of Passport to Magonia, Jacques Vallee's seminal master-work that changed our understanding of the UFO phenomenon. An instant classic when first published in 1969, the book remains a must-have resource for anybody interested in the topics of UFOs and alien contact, as well as those fascinated by fairy folklore and other paranormal encounters.
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Then again - I guess we probably have a couple flat-earthers here so anything is possible.
idiomotor right? kindof reminds my of the medical term idiopathic. essentially we dont know why it happens but it does.
Conclusive imagery combined with a mass report. Generally I’d say conclusive imagery would be enough, but in fact he next decade we are going to be in territory where that can be faked.
Then again - I guess we probably have a couple flat-earthers here so anything is possible.
You walked into that one...
And it can't involve some massive government conspiracy spanning decades.
Even if you believe that we have physical evidence (craft, bodies, exotic metals), it doesn't seem like we even have the scientific or technical capability to duplicate it.
Even if you believe that we have physical evidence (craft, bodies, exotic metals), it doesn't seem like we even have the scientific or technical capability to duplicate it.
Shhh… you’re jumping ahead ;)
Waiting For The UFO's. - ( New Window )
When it is blurry, doesn’t exist or is an isolated sighting then we really just have a UFO. These traits seem to typical align.
If you think things are pretty clear, it is evidence of bias. And that is what the argumentation ends up being built around.
In this thread alone, how many times has matt told people several articles and interviews are "worth a read" or "worth a listen"
Even if you believe that we have physical evidence (craft, bodies, exotic metals), it doesn't seem like we even have the scientific or technical capability to duplicate it.
There's evidence that something unexplainable is happening. That could just as easily be a balloon deflating (one instance the report referred too) or a natural phenomena or numerous other things.
We have no definitive evidence (that I've seen) of aliens or time travelers.
Publicly available information that can be vetted by experts or anyone who chooses.
Which is different than the former head of an agency claiming XYZ exists but he can't divulge anything else due to his security clearances (but don't forget to watch my show/buy my books!).
The conspiracy has always been that they’re hiding everything from us, now it seems to be that they don’t want you to know how derelict they’ve been because of philosophical differences in what’s possible and what isn’t Due to religious worldviews.
The rub for me is - what does credible disclosure truly look like when They’ve been deceiving, lying, covering up for so long about this. There is the element right now that thinks this is all for cash grab purposes, I think there’s something to be said for that.
But unknown aerial crafts that can out maneuver our best weapons, disrupt our nukes, and essentially run circles around us with physics that defy our understanding of what’s possible is currently the matter on the table. If you dont acknowledge that you’re not up on the facts by all available sources that we go on for practically every other facet of life that we live and gauge world events and their implications / consequences.
What if these aren’t ET but it’s been with us all along. What if it’s more spiritual in nature than physical. What if it can’t be studied scientifically, isn’t replicable. What if it IS black military projects and a paradigm shift in energy solutions has been possible for decades and we’ve been kept in the dark. And what of the lives this coverup has ruined and the inevitable lawsuits to follow.
I do not see how a clean, simple, verifiable disclosure can happen to satisfy everyone. I do not think the government is going to be compelled to admit anything. And to some extent we’re never going to get outside of defining what ‘unknown’ or ‘unidentified’ means.
Every single world leader would basically have to unanimously admit this all at the same time and provide historical context that can be corroborated by facts and disclosing everything their keeping classified. I just don’t see it happening.
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That conclusively cannot be made by humans or is clearly not of earthly origin. And who / what body is a trusted source of Disseminating that credible information
Publicly available information that can be vetted by experts or anyone who chooses.
Which is different than the former head of an agency claiming XYZ exists but he can't divulge anything else due to his security clearances (but don't forget to watch my show/buy my books!).
Lou left To The Stars to get out of the entertainment aspect of this media rollout. I think your characterization of the man is inaccurate.
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I think it's pretty clear there is ample evidence that clearly shows there is something happening in our atmosphere, in the sea and on land that we don't understand. This evidence is leading to conclusions... aliens, time travelers, dimensional shifts, etc.
Even if you believe that we have physical evidence (craft, bodies, exotic metals), it doesn't seem like we even have the scientific or technical capability to duplicate it.
There's evidence that something unexplainable is happening. That could just as easily be a balloon deflating (one instance the report referred too) or a natural phenomena or numerous other things.
We have no definitive evidence (that I've seen) of aliens or time travelers.
Absence of evidence (that you’ve personally seen) is not evidence of absence.
And it can't involve some massive government conspiracy spanning decades.
So when the Nimitz incident has multiple radar, recordings, multiple eye witnesses that doesn’t do anything for you? You need to see a high res image with an alien in the cockpit of a tic tac? What else do you need in that case to make the leap?
“Other: Although most of the UAP described in our dataset probably remain unidentified due to limited data or challenges to collection processing or analysis, we may require additional scientific knowledge to successfully collect on, analyze and characterize some of them. We would group such objects in this category pending scientific advances that allowed us to better understand them. The UAPTF intends to focus additional analysis on the small number of cases where a UAP appeared to display unusual flight characteristics or signature management.”
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Exactly. That this point is continually missed baffles me.
Exactly what makes these things "worth a read"? If I claim that a player is doing really well and I link to PFF to agree with that, should I really tell people it is "worth a read"?
There aren't people here linking to articles or podcasts that give a skeptical perspective and saying "Worth a listen". Why is the opposite true?
“Other: Although most of the UAP described in our dataset probably remain unidentified due to limited data or challenges to collection processing or analysis, we may require additional scientific knowledge to successfully collect on, analyze and characterize some of them. We would group such objects in this category pending scientific advances that allowed us to better understand them. The UAPTF intends to focus additional analysis on the small number of cases where a UAP appeared to display unusual flight characteristics or signature management.” Link - ( New Window )
Just because you haven't identified a cause doesn't = aliens. "Only one has to be true," isn't how serious people think, let alone what drives public policy, investment, science or strategic defense.
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Something that is clearly and accurately measured by a reputable source. That can be visible/IR/radar or some other means, but it has to be beyond these blurry images or "eyewitness" accounts where the witness miraculously forgot their mobile phone with its HD camera.
And it can't involve some massive government conspiracy spanning decades.
So when the Nimitz incident has multiple radar, recordings, multiple eye witnesses that doesn’t do anything for you? You need to see a high res image with an alien in the cockpit of a tic tac? What else do you need in that case to make the leap?
Since you are in the spirit, there are a lot of things that really aren't discussed when it comes to the Nimitz incident. And a lot of it comes from a misunderstanding how radar works as well as the Navy pilots having some sort of infallible opinion. This like you say, is worth a read.
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In comment 15289131 bradshaw44 said:
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In comment 15289088 mattlawson said:
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In comment 15289079 BamaBlue said:
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This was 1897 in Aurora Texas. There is a History Channel show on YouTube with details. Sadly, lots of details and some evidence, but no answers.
Great incident. NY post podcast Stephen greenstreet did a breakdown of that one with nick pope. Really fantastic story
Yep. Of all the incidents out there, this one stands out the most to me. Simply because there was nothing for the paper to really gain writing that story at the time. And the treatment of the pilot being given a proper burial and religious ceremony was really fascinating. It was just matter of fact.
In true Disney Cars fashion - the only explainable rationale is that the town was going to be passed by and it was drummed up for the tourism. I’m not saying I believe that or it’s solid conclusion - but that’s the caveat
Was tourism a revenue driver for small town America in 1894?
I wouldn't exactly just describe it as "tourism" the way we would think of it today. From 1870 to 1900, 170,000 miles of railroad was added to the United States. The towns and cities that the railroads went through and/or stopped in were obviously at a massive economic advantage. The "debunking" version of the story goes like this:
That was the tale sent to newspapers in nearby Dallas and Fort Worth one April day in 1897 by a local correspondent named S.E. Hayden. It was generally ridiculed at the time, and most citizens of Aurora still scoff. "Hayden wrote it as a joke and to bring interest to Aurora," says Etta Pegues, 86. "The railroad bypassed us, and the town was dying."
To be quite honest that sounds like a way more reasonable explanation-- a story that started as a joke and just grew and grew without anyone's ability at the time to really debunk it. It honestly makes a lot more sense than a "tiny spaceman" in a flying saucer being buried by the townspeople of Aurora.
Link - ( New Window )
But unknown aerial crafts that can out maneuver our best weapons, disrupt our nukes, and essentially run circles around us with physics that defy our understanding of what’s possible is currently the matter on the table. If you dont acknowledge that you’re not up on the facts by all available sources that we go on for practically every other facet of life that we live and gauge world events and their implications / consequences.
Don't acknowledge what? Where is the evidence of the aerial crafts you describe above and the events above happening?
Hopefully you are going to just point to the video of the blurry "tic-tac" in that article...
There are little facts, but lots of speculation and conjecture.
Calling things "facts" isn't furthering the point.
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MOST cases are not birds, balloons, drones. Etc. full stop. I’ll take in the consider that over the decades there have been thousands and thousands of reports. Only one has be true out of all of those. Just one.
“Other: Although most of the UAP described in our dataset probably remain unidentified due to limited data or challenges to collection processing or analysis, we may require additional scientific knowledge to successfully collect on, analyze and characterize some of them. We would group such objects in this category pending scientific advances that allowed us to better understand them. The UAPTF intends to focus additional analysis on the small number of cases where a UAP appeared to display unusual flight characteristics or signature management.” Link - ( New Window )
Just because you haven't identified a cause doesn't = aliens. "Only one has to be true," isn't how serious people think, let alone what drives public policy, investment, science or strategic defense.
No one - anywhere in the DNI report said aliens. Even the government insiders won’t say that. What they actually know and can’t say is intentionally left in the void of unknown.
The OP asked what we thought personally - I’ve given my opinion. It’s since gone down the rabbit hole of arguments from ignorance from those less familiar with what data actually exists and has been presented. Of course it’s not everything - it’s a miracle we got what we got in December 2017.
Healthy skepticism is great. Burying your head in the sand and claiming birds and balloons as a cause for something that has been divulged by the Pentagon to be an authentic data set of a craft of unknown origin with multiple military eye witnesses, multiple radar, multiple recordings only one of which has been released - you have to call that out at some point as being unhelpful to advancing the study of the phenomenon. It stands in the way of de-stigmatizing the topic and having a healthy dialogue about it.
I’m not sure what more you want that can be reasonably provided of the materials that are unclassified - aside from all governments simultaneously coming forward and showing all they have… It’s not going to happen in any satisfactory way to satisfy the nay sayers
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But unknown aerial crafts that can out maneuver our best weapons, disrupt our nukes, and essentially run circles around us with physics that defy our understanding of what’s possible is currently the matter on the table. If you dont acknowledge that you’re not up on the facts by all available sources that we go on for practically every other facet of life that we live and gauge world events and their implications / consequences.
Don't acknowledge what? Where is the evidence of the aerial crafts you describe above and the events above happening?
Hopefully you are going to just point to the video of the blurry "tic-tac" in that article...
You strike me as someone who has not looked into this topic beyond headlines and captions much.
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In comment 15296188 giants#1 said:
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Something that is clearly and accurately measured by a reputable source. That can be visible/IR/radar or some other means, but it has to be beyond these blurry images or "eyewitness" accounts where the witness miraculously forgot their mobile phone with its HD camera.
And it can't involve some massive government conspiracy spanning decades.
So when the Nimitz incident has multiple radar, recordings, multiple eye witnesses that doesn’t do anything for you? You need to see a high res image with an alien in the cockpit of a tic tac? What else do you need in that case to make the leap?
Since you are in the spirit, there are a lot of things that really aren't discussed when it comes to the Nimitz incident. And a lot of it comes from a misunderstanding how radar works as well as the Navy pilots having some sort of infallible opinion. This like you say, is worth a read. Link - ( New Window )
I’ve read it - and am familiar with the counter arguments.
It's this kind of mental short-circuiting that's led this country down the road to flat earthing, loose-changing, birther, anti-vaxxer, hydroxicloriquine peddling, wild ass guessing. It's why we're seemingly incapable of solving complicated problems.
Exactly what makes these things "worth a read"? If I claim that a player is doing really well and I link to PFF to agree with that, should I really tell people it is "worth a read"?
There aren't people here linking to articles or podcasts that give a skeptical perspective and saying "Worth a listen". Why is the opposite true?
That’s not my problem people don’t know how to link to articles relevant to the discussion at hand. Plus :: a lot of people seem not to be all that familiar with the latest news on the topic
Exactly what makes these things "worth a read"? If I claim that a player is doing really well and I link to PFF to agree with that, should I really tell people it is "worth a read"?
There aren't people here linking to articles or podcasts that give a skeptical perspective and saying "Worth a listen". Why is the opposite true?
That’s not my problem people don’t know how to link to articles relevant to the discussion at hand. Plus :: a lot of people seem not to be all that familiar with the latest news on the topic. Earlier in the thread people were thanking commenters for providing these sources and materials.
Can please some of the people some of the time… right?
It's this kind of mental short-circuiting that's led this country down the road to flat earthing, loose-changing, birther, anti-vaxxer, hydroxicloriquine peddling, wild ass guessing. It's why we're seemingly incapable of solving complicated problems.
You’re right. And the spooky music and over produced bullshit intros. We are JUST on the way to that reality hopefully.
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In comment 15296261 mattlawson said:
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But unknown aerial crafts that can out maneuver our best weapons, disrupt our nukes, and essentially run circles around us with physics that defy our understanding of what’s possible is currently the matter on the table. If you dont acknowledge that you’re not up on the facts by all available sources that we go on for practically every other facet of life that we live and gauge world events and their implications / consequences.
Don't acknowledge what? Where is the evidence of the aerial crafts you describe above and the events above happening?
Hopefully you are going to just point to the video of the blurry "tic-tac" in that article...
You strike me as someone who has not looked into this topic beyond headlines and captions much.
I look into it as much as it interests me.
When phenomena like UFO sightings keep getting resolved with logical explanations, my interest wanes. When we are basically left with blurry, out of focus pictures and isolated sightings in the middle of nowhere that cannot be properly and fully investigated, I lose all interest. And finally, when I hear defenders caveat that this is all subject to governmental cover-ups that have gone on for decades, I type posts like you see in this thread...
For those who believe there is reasonable evidence technology not of this planet has been discovered, are you willing to be proven wrong? That’s where I would start.
For those who believe there is reasonable evidence technology not of this planet has been discovered, are you willing to be proven wrong? That’s where I would start.
Definitely. I'd like to hear some more theories on the natural phenomenon we might be witnessing that show up on radar, IR, satellite and are witnessed visually by the pilots. That would be a pretty incredible find as well.
I have to give Mick West credit: he's actually hit some keys on his keyboard and read and viewed the recent available information on the topic before attempting to explain it away. He has some ongoing discussions with those involved and theories, but I don't think he has hit the nail on the head yet.
The most dubious one seems to be the recent "pyramids" vid because it looks like a cell phone recording night vision and its hard to determine frame of reference.
The stigma there of course forced those programs to close as well, religious implications there too. It's really a shame.. for all the talk of separation of church and state that we have the jesus freaks are shutting this shit down left and right ;)
It goes to ESP, Remote viewing, yes even dowsing. The US, China, Russia and other governments have used these techniques for some time. It's been declassified.
Annie Jacobsen's work is really interesting in that space. Her stance is the stigma on this comes from the Nazi's who were engaged in this pseudoscience and it's since evolved from there. After WW2 we split the Nazi files with the Soviets and it kicked off a paranormal war of sorts.
How about posting just one clear picture...
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No one - anywhere in the DNI report said aliens. Even the government insiders won’t say that. What they actually know and can’t say is intentionally left in the void of unknown.
You're just assuming they know more and can't disclose it. They willfully lead you on to believe there is more there, but you're really just guessing at what the 'gov't' is hiding and flimsily connecting dots to support your opinion/hopes.
I don't even know where to begin with this.
But look forward to your greatest hits collection coming up later...
It has been scientifically debunked. If you can't accept that, then you'll likely hold on to any shred of information about UFO's that has them as a possibility as "fact".
The way the word "fact" has been thrown around on this thread is evidence of that.
It goes to ESP, Remote viewing, yes even dowsing. The US, China, Russia and other governments have used these techniques for some time. It's been declassified.
One country that has religious freedom (US) is being lumped with China and Russia who has restricted religious aspects. So who are the "jesus freaks" in the rest of the world that is putting the kibosh on things?
Maybe showing "facts" on how the rest of the world has put up a wall of secrecy would be "worth a read"
It's not very elaborate. It takes far more leaps to get from their statements to aliens/time travelers/ESP then it does to 'my funding is low'..
It has been scientifically debunked. If you can't accept that, then you'll likely hold on to any shred of information about UFO's that has them as a possibility as "fact".
The way the word "fact" has been thrown around on this thread is evidence of that.
The fact is this work has happened. That we don't know WHY it works hasn't preclude the usage of these methods, and that it has worked with a high degree of precision. Even contractors that visit the site of a problematic well still resort to dowsing. In my experience the majority recommend it.
So ESP, or Remote viewing, map dowsing, psychic abilities... something that has been "scientifically debunked" but was used by DOD for 20+ years and the CIA, funded until the stigma and religious couldn't handle it within government ('if it's not from jesus it's demonic' per Russell Targ linked above), and yet it has a track record of success, how is that explained?
How does remote viewing work?
How does anesthesia work?
Hell, how does gravity work? Scientists still don't really know.
What is your comfortability with admitting that perhaps people in high places use methods that are controversial and do not understand how they work, but agree that they do in fact work well enough to achieve a particular goal.
Science is an amazing method and tool. It's been indescribably important to advance humanity. There's still a ton we don't know about the nature of the universe, our beginnings, our reality, the nature of these phenomena we've been talking about - and I would not be so sure that we have a great handle on these areas of unknown phenomenon, and citing the report from the govt just released new forms of science may be needed to answer for everything we've been experiencing.
Spooky action at a distance, while Einstein couldn't get his head around it, seems more and more like the ways of the world. I'm open, why are you sure to be closed?
Dowsing was debunked to placate religious people? Science doesn't cater to religion. It doesn't set out to debunk. It sets out to let the facts decide the outcome
Dowsing is neither a recommended practice, nor is it effective. Scientific studies have proven that. You keep using the word "fact" continuing to not have a clue what that word means. There are no facts that show dowsing works. It is not a "fact" that it is a proven practice. The opposite is actually true. Scientific methods cannot show that dowsing is any better than a random guess.
Next thing you'll be telling us is because people have won the lottery that there is a proven system to determine winning numbers. And believe it or not, there are fools who think that is actually true.
Dowsing was debunked to placate religious people? Science doesn't cater to religion. It doesn't set out to debunk. It sets out to let the facts decide the outcome
Dowsing is neither a recommended practice, nor is it effective. Scientific studies have proven that. You keep using the word "fact" continuing to not have a clue what that word means. There are no facts that show dowsing works. It is not a "fact" that it is a proven practice. The opposite is actually true. Scientific methods cannot show that dowsing is any better than a random guess.
Next thing you'll be telling us is because people have won the lottery that there is a proven system to determine winning numbers. And believe it or not, there are fools who think that is actually true.
Tomorrow, we can tackle gravity and anesthesia...
Tomorrow, we can tackle gravity and anesthesia...
Can Friday be 'dowsing day'?
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pictures first.
Tomorrow, we can tackle gravity and anesthesia...
Can Friday be 'dowsing day'?
Yeah let’s all try it
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pictures first.
Tomorrow, we can tackle gravity and anesthesia...
Can Friday be 'dowsing day'?
Okay, but somewhere in there I will need to be on the beach or the golf course.
I may even throw my dowsing rod in my golf bag to help me identify and avoid the water hazards. And hopefully my ball doesn't collide with all the UFOs flying around the coast of Florida and ruin my game. Also will be adding some extra weight on my golf cart before I go out as I would hate if we ran out of gravity over the busy holiday weekend and that floated away...
Tomorrow, we can tackle gravity and anesthesia...
I can’t do it from my phone so I’m gonna have to sit down and do a proper with image tags and make sure everything comes through OK
I’m good for it
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pictures first.
Tomorrow, we can tackle gravity and anesthesia...
I can’t do it from my phone so I’m gonna have to sit down and do a proper with image tags and make sure everything comes through OK
I’m good for it
Sounds good. But just provide the very best and clearest ones you can, quality over quantity.
Not interested in the black and white copies of Jupiter 2 from the 1965 television show "Lost in Space"....
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In comment 15296675 Jimmy Googs said:
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pictures first.
Tomorrow, we can tackle gravity and anesthesia...
Can Friday be 'dowsing day'?
Okay, but somewhere in there I will need to be on the beach or the golf course.
I may even throw my dowsing rod in my golf bag to help me identify and avoid the water hazards. And hopefully my ball doesn't collide with all the UFOs flying around the coast of Florida and ruin my game. Also will be adding some extra weight on my golf cart before I go out as I would hate if we ran out of gravity over the busy holiday weekend and that floated away...
Happened to me once. Hit the perfect shot and was on target for a hole-in-one before gravity turned off and it floated off into the water...
Things like anesthesia, gravity, magnetism are measured and can be controlled. Dowsing can not be either. I'm wondering how those other subjects became a jumping off point?
If you truly don't think those other items cannot be explained yet you talk about facts with aliens, there is a massive distortion of reality in this discussion.
Things like anesthesia, gravity, magnetism are measured and can be controlled. Dowsing can not be either. I'm wondering how those other subjects became a jumping off point?
If you truly don't think those other items cannot be explained yet you talk about facts with aliens, there is a massive distortion of reality in this discussion.
Knowing how something behaves and knowing what it is, how it came into being, and having an intricate knowledge of its mechanisms… that’s the distinction I’m drawing. It’s still being studied today for a reason. Standing on the shoulders of giants and building off assumptions has gotten us this far. There is still much disagreement in the scientific community about the nature of gravity.
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angle is a bizarre one as well. We absolutely understand what gravity is. We can record it and measure it. It's like saying we don't know what magnetism is.
Things like anesthesia, gravity, magnetism are measured and can be controlled. Dowsing can not be either. I'm wondering how those other subjects became a jumping off point?
If you truly don't think those other items cannot be explained yet you talk about facts with aliens, there is a massive distortion of reality in this discussion.
Knowing how something behaves and knowing what it is, how it came into being, and having an intricate knowledge of its mechanisms… that’s the distinction I’m drawing. It’s still being studied today for a reason. Standing on the shoulders of giants and building off assumptions has gotten us this far. There is still much disagreement in the scientific community about the nature of gravity.
That's ridiculous. That explanation can be used for anything in Nature today. Time, temperature, wavelengths, radiation, etc. And that et cetera literally would cover millions of other examples.
Sounds like this binary conundrum you've envisioned for yourself is a lot grayer than you thought
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Beyond the odds of chance - how does 9/9 times work for you?
In a controlled setting, the force of gravity is 100% predictable.
Where is there evidence in a controlled setting, the efficacy of dowsing is any more predictable than chance?
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Attempting doesn’t equate to success. Can anyone provide any evidence dowsing, ESP, etc. in any scientific experimental environment has worked beyond the odds of chance?
Beyond the odds of chance - how does 9/9 times work for you?
Let’s all take a look at this evidence together
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Attempting doesn’t equate to success. Can anyone provide any evidence dowsing, ESP, etc. in any scientific experimental environment has worked beyond the odds of chance?
Beyond the odds of chance - how does 9/9 times work for you?
Let me repost what I did earlier about dowsing:
- Dowsing studies from the early 20th century were examined by geologist John Walter Gregory in a report for the Smithsonian Institution. Gregory concluded that the results were a matter of chance or explained by observations from ground surface clues
- Geologist W. A. MacFadyen tested three dowsers during 1943–1944 in Algeria. The results were entirely negative
- A 1948 study in New Zealand by P. A. Ongley tested 75 dowsers' ability to detect water. None of them was more reliable than chance. According to Ongley "not one showed the slightest accuracy."
- Archaeometrist Martin Aitken tested British dowser P. A. Raine in 1959. Raine failed to dowse the location of a buried kiln that had been identified by a magnetometer
- A 2006 study of grave dowsing in Iowa reviewed 14 published studies and determined that none of them correctly predicted the location of human burials, and simple scientific experiments demonstrated that the fundamental principles commonly used to explain grave dowsing were incorrect.
- A randomized double-blind trial in 2012 was carried out to determine whether homeopaths were able to distinguish between Bryonia and placebo by use of a dowsing method. The results were negative
The 9/9 figure means little - the scientific experiments - numerous ones show otherwise
Here is a PDF of a very interesting study measuring ESP effects on stock market gains. You'll see the Targ reference with precedents that I've linked several times here.
What does it have to do with UFO's? Hal Puthoff was involved and helped fund further study with the proceeds from the stock investment trial. Hal is co-founder and VP of Science + Technology for TTSA.
Regarding the stigma - from this study: "The single largest criticism that can be said about previous research into ARV is that not enough of it has been carried out, reviewed, and published."
So if you could make money from this talent why don't people? Turns out they do.
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angle is a bizarre one as well. We absolutely understand what gravity is. We can record it and measure it. It's like saying we don't know what magnetism is.
Things like anesthesia, gravity, magnetism are measured and can be controlled. Dowsing can not be either. I'm wondering how those other subjects became a jumping off point?
If you truly don't think those other items cannot be explained yet you talk about facts with aliens, there is a massive distortion of reality in this discussion.
Knowing how something behaves and knowing what it is, how it came into being, and having an intricate knowledge of its mechanisms… that’s the distinction I’m drawing. It’s still being studied today for a reason. Standing on the shoulders of giants and building off assumptions has gotten us this far. There is still much disagreement in the scientific community about the nature of gravity.
Pretty much the only thing 'in dispute' of gravity is how it relates to the other fundamental forces. Beyond that, we literally understand gravity well enough to account for the fact that the clocks on GPS satellites tick faster than clocks on the ground by ~40 microseconds/day. GPS literally wouldn't work if our understanding of gravity was off.
Again - this explanation can be used about anything in Nature. Anything that isn't man made are going to have certain assumptions. What the origin of elements, molecules, organisms, all is up in the air using this foolish line of thinking. We can quantify the unknown - and it no longer is unknown. You can't even quantify dowsing.
And back to that topic - are you really intimating that dowsing is legitimate and one of the reasons it isn't confirmed by science is due to pressure from religious people? I believe that's what I read above.
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knowing how it behaves in certain circumstances is still an assumption about its nature. like the dual nature of light. even when thought to be fully understood, it wasnt.
Again - this explanation can be used about anything in Nature. Anything that isn't man made are going to have certain assumptions. What the origin of elements, molecules, organisms, all is up in the air using this foolish line of thinking. We can quantify the unknown - and it no longer is unknown. You can't even quantify dowsing.
And back to that topic - are you really intimating that dowsing is legitimate and one of the reasons it isn't confirmed by science is due to pressure from religious people? I believe that's what I read above.
Not dowsing - that was misconstrued/conflated in a comment. My actual point was when asked why did funding stop for ESP/RV projects in the DOD and CIA Russell Targ said the stigma became too great doing that kind of work for their sponsors to defend after a leadership change, and the religious within government felt it was antithetical to their beliefs. That's what Targ has said.
Kinda why I'm bringing it up
You are creating a wider and wider spread between speaking logically about science & nature and defending the existence of phenomena such as UFOs...
"On September 4, 1971, the Costa Rican National Geographic Institute was taking aerial photos from 10,000 feet of Lake Cote, the small body of water that would later become the larger Lake Arenal, as part of preliminary studies for the future hydroelectric project."
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knowing how it behaves in certain circumstances is still an assumption about its nature. like the dual nature of light. even when thought to be fully understood, it wasnt.
You are creating a wider and wider spread between speaking logically about science & nature and defending the existence of phenomena such as UFOs...
Binary thinking is good for some things. Not this topic. Get used to it
Can’t answer that question. But it did work and has been used for a variety of purposes
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why isn't Targ a billionaire? Surely a Hedge Fund would've gladly given him some money to generate real profits in the markets!
Can’t answer that question. But it did work and has been used for a variety of purposes
Or...DOD viewed the "research" as a dead-end didn't see any point in continuing to fund it. Targ's inability to gain funding from private or NGOs since leads me to believe that to be the case, as the other poster pointed out.
To each their own
To each their own
I'm sure that's the reason. Yet he continued searching for sources of funding for his reasearch...
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Led him to his conclusion that nonattachment to an ego driven realty is more important than being a billionaire.
To each their own
I'm sure that's the reason. Yet he continued searching for sources of funding for his reasearch...
Again - can't answer the question to any satisfactory conclusion. Are you going to freak out with this binary world you've constructed for yourself or can you handle the gray area here.
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Led him to his conclusion that nonattachment to an ego driven realty is more important than being a billionaire.
To each their own
I'm sure that's the reason. Yet he continued searching for sources of funding for his reasearch...
Or yet he has this simple way to make untolds amounts of money, give it up to do good in the world anonymously, but hasn't.
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In comment 15296815 mattlawson said:
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Led him to his conclusion that nonattachment to an ego driven realty is more important than being a billionaire.
To each their own
I'm sure that's the reason. Yet he continued searching for sources of funding for his reasearch...
Again - can't answer the question to any satisfactory conclusion. Are you going to freak out with this binary world you've constructed for yourself or can you handle the gray area here.
What binary world? What gray area? I want simple questions answered. Are we really supposed to believe that all of the people capable of remote viewing are altruistic and wouldn't use their gifts to take advantage of others and prosper? And if they are altruistic, why not use those proceeds to help others?
To each their own
I tell myself the same thing every time I pull a dud lotto ticket.
Your answers aren't frightening anyone. They have gone from odd to extremely bizarre, especially on the dowsing thing, the stance that gravity and anethesia are unknowns and assorted other ramblings.
Now, we're getting pictures that don't show anything as visual proof of UFO's? Most here don't seem to be striving for simplicity. Just plausible explanations for beliefs that seem to be pretty conclusive in your mind. When I hear the word "fact" used repeatedly - producing a fact, any fact would be helpful
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LOL. One shows a circular form and the other shows trees with unidentifiable images on the top of them. How the hell can we tell what they are or aren't? Heck, in the second picture, it looks almost like a stealth bomber of sorts.
Good call. Love project unity
You've produced an image from 1971 that shows something that can't be deciphered if it is an object and one from Poland that looks unrecognizeable in the distance.
Here's the other thing that never gets addressed. When UFO's are assumed to be alien, why do they take such different forms? Some are saucers, some are triangular banks of lights, some are tic-tacs, some are blockish. We must have several different alien civilizations monitoring us that avoid detection of a decent look at them.
Here's one with no trees and very clearly in flight in an active military space. This one was confirmed by the DOD to be authentic and of unknown origin.
styles change, opinions vary
Here's one with no trees and very clearly in flight in an active military space. This one was confirmed by the DOD to be authentic and of unknown origin.
Such reports were most prevalent in the early evening hours from pilots of airliners flying from east to west. When the sun dropped below the horizon of an airliner flying at 20,000 feet, the plane was in darkness. But, if a U-2 was airborne in the vicinity of the airliner at the same time, its horizon from an altitude of 60,000 feet was considerably more distant, and, being so high in the sky, its silver wings would catch and reflect the rays of the sun and appear to the airliner pilot, 40,000 feet below, to be fiery objects. Even during daylight hours, the silver bodies of the high- flying U-2s could catch the sun and cause reflections or glints that could be seen at lower altitudes and even on the ground. At this time, no one believed manned flight was possible above 60,000 feet, so no one expected to see an object so high in the sky.
Not only did the airline pilots report their sightings to air traffic controllers, but they and ground-based observers also wrote letters to the Air Force unit at Wright Air Development Command in Dayton charged with investigating such phenomena. This, in turn, led to the Air Force's Operation Blue Book. Based at Wright-Patterson, the operation collected all reports of UFO sightings. Air Force investigators then attempted to explain such sightings by linking them to natural phenomena. Blue Book investigators regularly called on the [Central Intelligence] Agency's Project staff in Washington to check reported UFO sightings against U-2 flight logs. This enabled the investigators to eliminate a majority of the UFO reports, although they could not reveal to the letter writers the true cause of the UFO sightings. U-2 and later OXCART flights accounted for more than one-half of all UFO reports during the late 1950s and most of the 1960s.
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Should have foreseen that when dowsing was considered legitimate.
Should have foreseen that when dowsing was considered legitimate.
You're glib bud. Sorry
Listen to the audio. Stigma...
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Video linked
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Sorry I missed this one, have you not been following along dude, people have been asking for photographic evidence.
On the dowsing thing, try not to get too bent out of shape. Haven’t done it myself the rods do move. It’s fun you should try it. It was enough to impress someone else who was observing the experiment and knew I was unfamiliar with this large property having water issues. It’s kind of amazing that a total novice like myself could locate a well on that kind of acreage with a clipped coat hanger.
Just because it doesn’t stand up to repeatable scientific double blind tests in a manufactured environment for the test does not mean the phenomenon isn’t real, it is. Just like idiopathic… the idiomotor - we don’t know why it happens but it does. And I don’t think it has anything to do with subtle cues in the landscape or the terrain, having done it myself there was a reaction due to shit in the ground. Electrical and water.
I’ve seen UFOs, one was likely man-made military but I’ve seen one with my own eyes. I’ve seen others that are more like orbs. I’ve seen them that are more like drones. But take it from me I was not born a believer I’ve just seen shit and experience things that are hard to fathom without being open to the possibility that we don’t know everything about this place. This thread is about exploring what it could possibly mean, so enjoy yourself while it lasts.
What’s not compelling, just five years ago UFOs didn’t even exist. Now the government in which they exist but they’re just saying they don’t know what they are. What are you looking for
Should have foreseen that when dowsing was considered legitimate.
Says the guy who doesn't know what UFO stands for. How binary.
As an avid fisherman I totally get that. Authentic is an interesting word. The images whether they are of legitimate flying machines or phenomena that are not of human origin - they are authentic to the discourse of ufology and I find the topic interesting on that front alone
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What’s not compelling, just five years ago UFOs didn’t even exist. Now the government in which they exist but they’re just saying they don’t know what they are. What are you looking for
High resolution camera where we can actually rule out other explanations other than alien flying machines. None of that applies. Yes they are admitting that people are seeing stuff whether by eye or radar, but their are a ton of things it can be before aliens. Once you rule those out, then we can discuss. And you aren't ruling it out into you get some high-resolution video where you can tell perspective (which as a Navy vet I can tell you is very hard to do by sea, and pracitcally impossible by air).
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all seen these images and the like. What are you trying to prove??
Sorry I missed this one, have you not been following along dude, people have been asking for photographic evidence.
I missed where you've provided photographic evidence(stated as if it is fact), so I'm guessing we're at a bypass.....
But I don’t know maybe I’m just on the wrong side of history here.
Did you mean impasse?
I had a nice response to this going that resulted in a sequel database error, and now I have to go into something else for the next several hours so I will be back in touch with you when I can about this
Jimmy Googs : 8:29 am : link : reply
of files, governmental cover-ups, and now the Nazis and Communists.
How about posting just one clear picture...
But why do that when you can post a pic over Costa Rica in 1914??
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What’s not compelling, just five years ago UFOs didn’t even exist. Now the government in which they exist but they’re just saying they don’t know what they are. What are you looking for
They didn't exist, even as a phenomena? Most of your pics are from decades ago...
But I don’t know maybe I’m just on the wrong side of history here.
Did you mean impasse?
I think that’s the only thing that we can all agree on - they are unidentifiable. That’s it, meaning it could be anything.
It’s a struggle for me to go much beyond that considering what we’ve achieved scientifically and technologically - space travel, modern medicine, middle defense systems, you name it. There’s no rational reason why we haven’t capture even a half decent video of a UFO. If all you’ve got is that our brain can’t comprehend it than my retort is that it mustn’t be UFOs in the shitty grainy footage then.
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is of the fishing lures...
As an avid fisherman I totally get that. Authentic is an interesting word. The images whether they are of legitimate flying machines or phenomena that are not of human origin - they are authentic to the discourse of ufology and I find the topic interesting on that front alone
The things in the pictures/vids are a mix of unauthentic flying objects meant to cause a hoax, unauthentic marks on the film or camera meant to cause a hoax, and some authentic flying objects that if there was a better, clearer and closer view would be reasonably identified as something other than a phenomenon.
But the fishing lures are a dead-ringer for fishing lures...no question.
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Stigmas, religious freaks, classified materials, destruction
Jimmy Googs : 8:29 am : link : reply
of files, governmental cover-ups, and now the Nazis and Communists.
How about posting just one clear picture...
But why do that when you can post a pic over Costa Rica in 1914??
Always exaggerating for effect, it was 1971...
:-)
In all of the conspiracy theories that turned out to be true (and I believe it's very few of them), hard evidence turned up. I eagerly await it here, but I'm not expecting it.
If this is all a hoax by the military to get funding, that would be the lamest of all explanations. If they actually have tech that can spoof radars and fuck with pilots, however, that would be kinda cool.
But it’s pretty clear that the things that I’m posting or not birds, they’re not balloons, you can say they are photographic artifacts but I think that’s pretty much a stretch. They are not missing pixels like the Mars photos, they are interesting in and of themselves.
One in particular was not from eons ago but from 2004 and has been acknowledged by the military as being an authentic UAP. Meaning it’s not identifiable as a military craft, black budget or otherwise, it’s likely not adversarial technology either. What does that leave?
The point is UFOs exist and have. Open till 2017 that fact alone was debated, stigmatized, and anyone that would possibly come to the table of openness and explore it conversationally was ridiculed. Randy is probably smiling up at the stars right now knowing he’s at least due something from the bar tab from you fuckers who refused to except the fact that the government just admitted to the whole world that these things are real, they aren’t ours, and officially they aren’t sure what they are. I can’t except that I want you to ask yourself what would it actually take to convince you of anything. Is this fake news? Is it off the bored not allowed type of talk now? does it need to be political? Do you have so little faith in the news organizations that exist and by which we process every other piece of information that occurs on this planet? Where are we supposed to go from here when the government just admitted UFOs are real, these are authentic images of them, and the public still doesn’t believe it? What would it take?
But it’s pretty clear that the things that I’m posting or not birds, they’re not balloons, you can say they are photographic artifacts but I think that’s pretty much a stretch. They are not missing pixels like the Mars photos, they are interesting in and of themselves.
One in particular was not from eons ago but from 2004 and has been acknowledged by the military as being an authentic UAP. Meaning it’s not identifiable as a military craft, black budget or otherwise, it’s likely not adversarial technology either. What does that leave?
The point is UFOs exist and have. Open till 2017 that fact alone was debated, stigmatized, and anyone that would possibly come to the table of openness and explore it conversationally was ridiculed. Randy is probably smiling up at the stars right now knowing he’s at least due something from the bar tab from you fuckers who refused to except the fact that the government just admitted to the whole world that these things are real, they aren’t ours, and officially they aren’t sure what they are. I can’t except that I want you to ask yourself what would it actually take to convince you of anything. Is this fake news? Is it off the bored not allowed type of talk now? does it need to be political? Do you have so little faith in the news organizations that exist and by which we process every other piece of information that occurs on this planet? Where are we supposed to go from here when the government just admitted UFOs are real, these are authentic images of them, and the public still doesn’t believe it? What would it take?
Do you suppose the military (US or otherwise) is under any obligation to disclose whether a UAP was indeed an experimental craft under testing?
Do you suppose there's an inherent benefit to them denying such experimental craft exist?
Here's Susan Gogh's comments about Lue:
Here's a screenshot of Lue's inbox while working for the DoD:
Beyond a game of semantics, his records were also supposedly deleted and unavailable for FOIA. Why is the government literally covering up this man's work and why are they attempting to discredit him?
Maybe Ross Coulhart has some good ideas why, starting to sound like Bob Lazar 2.0 to me...
Lue has said in no uncertain terms - these craft are real, it represents beyond next generation tech, it's not our tech, not our adversaries like Russia/China, and they are operating with impunity within our restricted airspace and have interrupted our military operations routinely. If this ain't us, and it ain't them - what does that leave?
It makes up enemies and threats to get funding.
But notice this isn't deemed credible enough to even drum up support for a prototype.
Doubt there is any cheese at the end of this tunnels. Might be trolls in the maze- but not cheese.
Imo
It makes up enemies and threats to get funding.
But notice this isn't deemed credible enough to even drum up support for a prototype.
Doubt there is any cheese at the end of this tunnels. Might be trolls in the maze- but not cheese.
Imo
Bill do you think it's possible we've been developing black projects to address this potential threat all along?
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The military is aware there is something, but they don't understand it and are incapable of defining it. There is no defense under those conditions.
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The military is aware there is something, but they don't understand it and are incapable of defining it. There is no defense under those conditions.
IF they are to be believed - seems like the debate on the forum here has revealed that many won't turn their head until an alien does it for them
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The military is still in the crawl stage. They are still trying to figure-out how to collect 'decision quality' data.
The military is aware there is something, but they don't understand it and are incapable of defining it. There is no defense under those conditions.
IF they are to be believed - seems like the debate on the forum here has revealed that many won't turn their head until an alien does it for them
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Again - what is the point of this fucking charade of posting images that show nothing?
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Again - what is the point of this fucking charade of posting images that show nothing?
keeping the thread alive, why else.
Letting the thread die might be a hell of a lot better, Chief.
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In comment 15297718 BamaBlue said:
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The military is still in the crawl stage. They are still trying to figure-out how to collect 'decision quality' data.
The military is aware there is something, but they don't understand it and are incapable of defining it. There is no defense under those conditions.
IF they are to be believed - seems like the debate on the forum here has revealed that many won't turn their head until an alien does it for them
Hard to believe that people don’t agree with your conclusions. Your posts have been absolutely convincing.
C'mon. If that pixilated blue Hawaiin dildo hasn't convinced you, nothing will!
And if so, who is patrolling the edge of the Earth?
And if so, who is patrolling the edge of the Earth?
I swear to the heavens I've avoided looking up what dowsing is but you have me close....
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trying to figure out if we were being punk'd earlier, or if a guy on BBI really believes in dowsing and stands by a 9/9 record.
And if so, who is patrolling the edge of the Earth?
I swear to the heavens I've avoided looking up what dowsing is but you have me close....
Update: I couldn't help myself and I hate you FMIC.
Dousing for Beginners - ( New Window )
With Russell Targ's success with remote viewing and investing in silver commodities at the Stanford Research Institute. 9 for 9 and 100K+ in profits.
If ESP / Remote Viewing / Dowsing is all related and connected to some overarching ability or natural capability - amazing. Fantastic. I have no idea if that's the case. I'm not claiming that it definitely is. All I know is these practices DO exist and have been studied by the DoD and CIA, there IS a track record of success, it's hard to study scientifically and a significant stigma exists on these topics. CLEARLY, scroll up.
I have personally dowsed out of curiosity. I am open to it as odd as it sounds. It looks fucking weird. It feels weird to do it. Foolish even! But the rods do move in response to what's underground. Within the little experiment I did I was in fact able to locate a hidden well on a property I had never visited before with no direction whatsoever, and a witness was present. It was enough to be 'interesting' for us. Impressive even.
This account is very consistent with the articles you read about that phenomenon. I cannot claim it's possible to put a dowsing trial through a robust scientific process and be successful. The trial I've read about do not replicate what's available in a nature setting. It's simply not the same apples to apples. Perhaps that is not something that cannot be adequately confirmed through the scientific methods that we have. But I'm certainly OPEN to future discovery on this. Most people aren't - I can accept that. It's not like I'm anti-science. I'm simply open to what science has not answered for yet.
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Where are Clark Gable and Burt Lancaster when you need them...
Is there a part II? I wanna know if he found some silver?!?
Oh good so you’ve identified it - tell us what is it
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those pics are a slam dunk...
Oh good so you’ve identified it - tell us what is it
An alien. And that's not a dowsing rod in his pocket.
Canada.
Canada.
Canada has been really really mean to us, whereas the ETs have just poked our butts.
Lost a great shot to pick up some alien parts or rescue an extrastellar being that could have immensely helped relations!
And very sneaky.
Like sending "artists" like Celine Dion, Bryan Adams and Anne Murray to ruin the minds of our youth before they can even contribute to society.
A Sugar Mountain of subversive stuff.
How do we know we haven't been working on something? We've been playing with rail guns and laser weapons for some time now. Is the military hard up for cash? If we're taking the report at face value, we know the government has been aware of these since what, 2004?
Of the UAPs that were studied, some are moving at hypersonic speeds. Do we know if we've tried to intercept the ones that weren't? Fire on them with conventional weapons? What is the prototype to be developed exactly? As someone said above, I think the government is still trying to make a decision.
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In comment 15297807 Jimmy Googs said:
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those pics are a slam dunk...
Oh good so you’ve identified it - tell us what is it
An alien. And that's not a dowsing rod in his pocket.
Haha...very well done
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those pics are a slam dunk...
Oh good so you’ve identified it - tell us what is it
It’s a picture of an image from the Lite-Brite. A popular kids toy from the late 1960s where you put colored pegs into a lit up background.
My older sister loved it...
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In comment 15297807 Jimmy Googs said:
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those pics are a slam dunk...
Oh good so you’ve identified it - tell us what is it
It’s a picture of an image from the Lite-Brite. A popular kids toy from the late 1960s where you put colored pegs into a lit up background.
My older sister loved it...
Close but no cigar - stills from a video of a ufo reported by multiple witnesses to the police and the FAA
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But notice this isn't deemed credible enough to even drum up support for a prototype.
How do we know we haven't been working on something? We've been playing with rail guns and laser weapons for some time now. Is the military hard up for cash? If we're taking the report at face value, we know the government has been aware of these since what, 2004?
Of the UAPs that were studied, some are moving at hypersonic speeds. Do we know if we've tried to intercept the ones that weren't? Fire on them with conventional weapons? What is the prototype to be developed exactly? As someone said above, I think the government is still trying to make a decision.
This has been going on for 70 years - ifs only been taken seriously since 2017
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In comment 15297817 mattlawson said:
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In comment 15297807 Jimmy Googs said:
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those pics are a slam dunk...
Oh good so you’ve identified it - tell us what is it
It’s a picture of an image from the Lite-Brite. A popular kids toy from the late 1960s where you put colored pegs into a lit up background.
My older sister loved it...
Close but no cigar - stills from a video of a ufo reported by multiple witnesses to the police and the FAA Link - ( New Window )
It had more credibility before that silly news link.
Trust me, Lite-Brite...
If you look closely I think you can see Ray Walston taking a leak behind a tree.
When I had finished, I stared out the plane window, curiously disturbed. Like most people, I had grown up believing the earth was the center of everything--life, intelligence, and religion. Now, for the first time in my life, that belief was shaken.
It was a curious thing. I could accept the idea that we would eventually explore space, land on the moon, and go on to distant planets. I had read of the plans, and I knew our engineers and scientists would somehow find a way. It did not disturb my belief in our superiority.
But faced with this evidence of a superior race in the universe, my mind rebelled. For years, I had been accustomed to thinking in comic-strip terms of any possible spacemen--Buck Rogers stuff, with weird-looking space ships and green-faced Martians.
But now, if these sightings were true, the shoe was on the other foot. We would be faced with a race of beings at least two hundred years ahead of our civilization--perhaps thousands. In their eyes, we might look like primitives.
My conjectures before the take-off had just been idle thinking; I had not really believed this could be the answer. But now the question came back sharply. How would we react to a sudden appearance of space ships, bringing that higher race to the earth? If we were fully prepared, educated to this tremendous adventure, it might come off without trouble. Unprepared, we would be thrown into panic.
The lights of Philadelphia showed up ahead, and a thought struck me. What would Philadelphians of 1776 have thought to see this DC-6 flying across their city at three hundred miles an hour? What would the sentries at Valley Forge have done, a year later, if this lighted airliner had streaked over their heads?
Madness. Stampede. Those were the plain answers."
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And the motivation to post them continues to be a big "What the fuck?"
That goes for posts too.
This is the Gold Standard of Proof - but also reveals why this guy believes that dowsing works!
That goes for posts too.
Although the thread has become its own example of why people claiming UFO sightings get ridiculed...
This is the Gold Standard of Proof - but also reveals why this guy believes that dowsing works!
Personal experience will do that sometimes - kinda like seeing an orb, flying saucer, or having a paranormal experience of some kind.
If openness to what is yet unexplained makes me the devil, I’m fine with that.
This is the Gold Standard of Proof - but also reveals why this guy believes that dowsing works!
Don’t forget declassified government documents - which we can start doing as well for posterity.
I was very clear in my logic earlier and why I think unidentifieds exist, and have. It was clear to me that a lot of the participants on the other side were not up on all the relevant material. I’ll be taking my time with tweezers and blowtorch to keep this thread alive as new information surfaces about this topic. We’ve just begun fat man
Original Hard copy segment from 95 embedded in the link below with 2 videos. What's cool about these are the way they move.
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As part of the flight, which took place west of Santiago, the helicopter's technician was testing the thermal imaging properties of an infrared FLIR high-definition camera. Naturally, he turned the camera on the unidentified object. After several minutes the pilot and technician observed the object make two distinct discharges of some type of liquid, or gas, which produced a very hot signal captured by the infrared imager. The technician captured nearly 10 minutes of video, which shows both visible and infrared camera views.
After this sighting, the Navy turned the video over to the the Committee for the Study of Anomalous Aerial Phenomena, known as CEFAA. This is the Chilean government group that investigates UFO sightings, or Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon. On Friday, after a study by scientists, military officials, and even some photo analysis experts from France, the committee released its conclusion.
"The Committee for the Study of Anomalous Aerial Phenomena, comprised of leading scientists, analysts, and aviation technicians, after an extensive study of the case, determined that it was a UAP, or Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon"
Video linked
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No one is seeing all UFO sightings and all pictures of UFO looking things are legitimate unidentified craft that then leads to capabilities beyond next generation tech that we don’t have. But some do.
And as I pointed out earlier if you look at the actual data the higher the quality of THOSE events in these studies that the government has conducted, the more likelihood they are to be unidentified.
UFOs exist.
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Angry Molesting Tree. Holy shit.
The point is making the leap that unidentified objects are otherworldly.
Which is exactly why many wonder why you keep posting photos.
Angry Molesting Tree. Holy shit.
No one is seeing all UFO sightings and all pictures of UFO looking things are legitimate unidentified craft that then leads to capabilities beyond next generation tech that we don’t have. But some do.
And as I pointed out earlier if you look at the actual data the higher the quality of THOSE events in these studies that the government has conducted, the more likelihood they are to be unidentified.
UFOs exist.
Given capability (and need) to examine each instance in a more efficient and effective manner, all would have a logical and natural explanations.
All...
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Angry Molesting Tree. Holy shit.
The burden of proof is on you to disprove Angry Molesting Trees. It only takes one to show they exist.
All bark, no bite.
Video linked
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The point is making the leap that unidentified objects are otherworldly.
Which is exactly why many wonder why you keep posting photos.
OF COURSE that's the ultimate leap that no one here could possibly take from a photograph alone. Which is precisely why I've stated for the record it surprises me that people could be convinced from a photo.
Context matters.
Now, that military professionals have said these phenomena have been captured on multiple radar, video, flir, and seen by multiple eye witnesses to maneuver with capabilities beyond anything we have in our arsenal... that is significant context.
But how can we believe those folks. How can we believe the government which has come out and ADMITTED the media shown and classification of the material is authentic and remains UNKNOWN. How can we possibly rest assured that UFOs do exist with all that out there.
It's probably nothing. Prolly a bird, balloon, or China with a transmedium drone that can operate 24/7 in our oceans and airspace with instantaneous acceleration, cloaking capabilities, and advance knowledge of a classified drill plan. All is fine.
I prefer star fox or after burner myself.
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Are misidentified and have completely logical and natural explanations. It doesn’t explain it all though. In fact the press releases about official studies miss characterize the actual conclusions to make it seem like it’s less of an issue than it actually is.
No one is seeing all UFO sightings and all pictures of UFO looking things are legitimate unidentified craft that then leads to capabilities beyond next generation tech that we don’t have. But some do.
And as I pointed out earlier if you look at the actual data the higher the quality of THOSE events in these studies that the government has conducted, the more likelihood they are to be unidentified.
UFOs exist.
Given capability (and need) to examine each instance in a more efficient and effective manner, all would have a logical and natural explanations.
All...
Are you saying that UFOs are then a natural part of life?
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via Richard Dolan, UFO Historian.
US propulsion development activities stay within US-designated ranges. UAP sightings are NOT attributable to US advanced propulsion development projects.
via Richard Dolan, UFO Historian.
US propulsion development activities stay within US-designated ranges. UAP sightings are NOT attributable to US advanced propulsion development projects.
How many years of study are required to become a licensed "UFO Historian"? I'm 41. Is it too late for me?
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Of course they have better video, but there is zero chance they release it. It's a security issue. The Pentagon went apeshit when the last guy in the white house released some hi def video of our capabilities. I don't trust Lou Elizonda at all, he seems like some of these meatheads I served with. He can't even honestly answer the why now question?
Also - public pressure to release everything they have has mounted. This is no longer a fringe topic, it’s out in the open and there’s been a lot of momentum in recent years.
I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention but there are all these new civilian space companies that are launching, could have something to do with it too.
He did elaborate to say that the data you get from such activities - it’s very subjective, and so in terms of usable data, it’s often not enough, that you need other data to complete the picture. Remote viewing may not be enough to substantiate a claim to make a decision. And that’s totally fair.
I do think more serious work needs to be done on human intuition though because the studies that I’ve heard about are extremely interesting
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via Richard Dolan, UFO Historian.
US propulsion development activities stay within US-designated ranges. UAP sightings are NOT attributable to US advanced propulsion development projects.
How many years of study are required to become a licensed "UFO Historian"? I'm 41. Is it too late for me?
It’s never too late for now
Also - public pressure to release everything they have has mounted. This is no longer a fringe topic, it’s out in the open and there’s been a lot of momentum in recent years.
I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention but there are all these new civilian space companies that are launching, could have something to do with it too.
What public pressure? There is very little public pressure to release this stuff.
Why now is very simple. The military-industrial complex has gotten massive in the last twenty years and the wars are drawing down. Something needs to feed the beast and the military is looking for new things to replace the war funding. The military is a political machine. They recognized a possible opportunity and are taking it.
Releasing it because of space companies in their infancy? What's to gain for the military. I seriously question your logic trains. The motives don't make any sense.
Just because someone works for an entity for a long period of time doesn’t mean that they are completely loyal to them no matter the case. In Lue’s case it appears he’s blowing the whistle because he’s sick and tired of the same ol same ol.
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December 2017 changed everything. He wouldn’t want to place undue attention on the record on how he got the 3 videos released in the first place.
Also - public pressure to release everything they have has mounted. This is no longer a fringe topic, it’s out in the open and there’s been a lot of momentum in recent years.
I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention but there are all these new civilian space companies that are launching, could have something to do with it too.
What public pressure? There is very little public pressure to release this stuff.
Why now is very simple. The military-industrial complex has gotten massive in the last twenty years and the wars are drawing down. Something needs to feed the beast and the military is looking for new things to replace the war funding. The military is a political machine. They recognized a possible opportunity and are taking it.
Releasing it because of space companies in their infancy? What's to gain for the military. I seriously question your logic trains. The motives don't make any sense.
There’s tremendous public pressure, the UFO article traffic on the New York Times are the highest in the publications history. Same with 60 minutes. This is not a fringe topic any longer. Congressional leaders are coming out of the woodwork now to go on record about this because they know their constituents care about it. This has come up in presidential debates a serious point of questioning for 20 years.
The momentum is there. People that know I’m interested in this topic are coming up to me and texting me all over the place about it. It’s reached an unprecedented pitch
Just because someone works for an entity for a long period of time doesn’t mean that they are completely loyal to them no matter the case. In Lue’s case it appears he’s blowing the whistle because he’s sick and tired of the same ol same ol.
What? I didn’t say any of that about Elizindo.
And yes I do assume it’s all about money, it’s always about money and funding for this he MIC is about to get contracted. They are going to explore all avenues to make sure it’s as minimal as possible.
If infinity is the order of being, then anything can exist/happen an infinite number of times.
So the larger question becomes, is it really scripted like that? Do you believe in a massive coordinated effort to defraud the public trust to ensure their projects are always lined?
It's a conspiracy one way or another. Pick your poison.
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So the larger question becomes, is it really scripted like that? Do you believe in a massive coordinated effort to defraud the public trust to ensure their projects are always lined?
It's a conspiracy one way or another. Pick your poison.
What is this massive coordinated effort to defraud the public? Scripted like what? Just because one guy is a DOD insider and is privy to the information doesn't mean everyone knows. He could also just be putting pieces together. It's not that difficult. I mean I'm not a DoD insider and i'ts blindingly obvious to me.
Yeh the military (and private contractors) is always going to do its best politically to make sure its pockets are lined. Isn't that just common knowledge at this point? The next real priority for the Pentagon is cyberwarfare, but that just doesn't like the pockets like traditional manufacturing and projects do.
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And if presidential candidates are debating on this topic, it should only help get the undecided off the fence...
No, it’s the facts. I thought I would add that concept to a thread sorely lacking it...
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There's a canadian ufologist that for years has been on this predictive track going back decades on who the next target would be to drum up military funding. After the wars in the Middle East he predicted Aliens. Apparently he was told this by an DoD insider.
So the larger question becomes, is it really scripted like that? Do you believe in a massive coordinated effort to defraud the public trust to ensure their projects are always lined?
It's a conspiracy one way or another. Pick your poison.
What is this massive coordinated effort to defraud the public? Scripted like what? Just because one guy is a DOD insider and is privy to the information doesn't mean everyone knows. He could also just be putting pieces together. It's not that difficult. I mean I'm not a DoD insider and i'ts blindingly obvious to me.
Yeh the military (and private contractors) is always going to do its best politically to make sure its pockets are lined. Isn't that just common knowledge at this point? The next real priority for the Pentagon is cyberwarfare, but that just doesn't like the pockets like traditional manufacturing and projects do.
Using known disinformation tactics to gain political advantage and curry favor with those with funding mechanisms. Seems to me that if you lie to get money - that’s fraud. Waste fraud and abuse is a thing with state and federal dollars
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"Everyone has a cell phone, why don't we have more video of uaps?" This is about the quality I'd expect, and while I find it personally interesting, is this really moving the needle for the people that make that argument? Then why make that argument? Most people aren't flying airplanes.
Good camera work of superimposing lite-brite film into the dark sky.
Almost looks like fireworks which is appropriate for today.
Happy 4th...
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Your use of the word "fact" continues to shit on the meaning of the word "fact".
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as in "unidentified" is a synonym for "we dont know"?
So in sum, some tiny percentage of all the things that are observed via optical recordings are not explainable? And we have no choice, no known examples of damage and no cure for a thing that (even if it exists) has done no known harm for decades and decades?
Unidentified Innocuous Objects is the more accurate observation of the past phenomenon?
Seems recent human history would teach us to worry a lot more about Almost Invisible Damaging Objects.
So we dont know everything. And when we find out, there will be more we dont know.
This subject was pretty far down my list of interests and after reading a very long thread with no there there its dropped down further. Nothing to do, nothing to fear, just items that cant be classified. Of the mysteries and knowledge gaps we must live with, for me, this is one for others to focus on.
All I know is - these things are real and the government admitted it. Which means it’s not secret tech and it’s not anything China or Russia has. What does that leave?
Look at that Info graphic I posted earlier - the possible explanations range beyond where the OP was. It’s a fascinating topic, fun to talk about. Clearly incites ridicule from those to have a higher source of knowledge than the rest of us.
I’m fine with unidentified at this point.
We further agree that no previously unidentified "objects" recorded have been found in physical form. Ever.
"These things are real". If they are unidentified, that is a really ignorant statement. What do you mean by "real"?
Some of the unidentified items have been deflated balloons. Those are real items, but not noteworthy.
Some of the unidentified things have been optical illusions(such as an array of lights in formation), cloud formations or even shadows. Those aren't real items and aren't noteworthy.
Being real means nothing if you don't know what it is - and the condundrum is if you don't know what it is, even calling it "real" is contradictory.
For me, I prefer to give mental shelf space to things that are certainly in the world and for knowledge or practice or perspective can do something about it.
Just imo
What if these Unidentified Bony Objects are gathering to March on North Carolina.
Can you prove they aren't?
Lots more unidentified bones are being found then in the Dark Ages. Or even the Middle Ages.
Obviously this should be a military concern. There are military bases in the Carolinas, and valuable humans live there unaware of the threat.
Do you know which they will go for first?
Obviously, some people are deliberately avoiding reality.
via Richard Dolan, UFO Historian.
US propulsion development activities stay within US-designated ranges. UAP sightings are NOT attributable to US advanced propulsion development projects.
This just makes we think it is possibly US tech.
So they admit to have some new techs developed and have tested it around area 51. Well what would the next level of black ops testing involve? I would guess it would be nice to buzz our own guys, so what if our pilots and ships see them, the military can control the narrative.
Now you want to take testing further or even for operational spying and such and bring the tech in front of our adversaries. The best way to do that would be to disclose that we are seeing all this crazy tech and it isn't ours.
None of the Identified Bony Objects have eyes.
So it can't be a coincidence. Obviously it's a conspiracy.
Why is the government hiding the reasons and research they must have done on this? It's got to be a high risk to tell us the truth.
Or we don't want the Russians to know
We further agree that no previously unidentified "objects" recorded have been found in physical form. Ever.
I don’t agree to that last statement, how can you or I possibly know that. Especially when current contractors to the DOD have said the contrary. “Off world aerial vehicles, not made by human hands” I believe is the money quote. I’m not willing to stare that no UAP have ever been recovered. That of course is the hope to those that want to go deeper with disclosure. That’s the big conspiracy many point to but cannot prove. I’m open to that but of course would never say anything definitive points to this. But personally I’m open and want to hear more about this aspect.
I think if you read the latest report - many are physical objects. New science needed to get further in explaining how a craft can move as fast as these have and not result in a sonic boom. Even if it is secret tech - which I’m not saying it is - it represents a paradigm shift that absolutely needs further explanation and attention.
What the statement I posted from Dolan above means to me is that it’s not likely to be secret US tech. That they would not test anything like that near other military operations, where these incursions have occurred. That of course is a leak of a classified piece of information so I don’t know how to go beyond just responding to what was put out there but it certainly terrifies what other people have been saying about this, they would not test secret black budget technology in active military training sessions without full awareness of what was going on and that seems to be what Dolan is indicating here.
I think UAP's fall under two catagories:
1) Current Military: The US or another country has developed tech that is way ahead of current thought, or this is a disinformation campaign by the military (fake videos or using current tech) to simulate what's been released). It wouldn't be a shock to discover that the goverment has lied about this, or that only people at the highest levels know what's going on.
Why disinformation? Remember what the US did back in the 80's against the USSR with SDI...we drove the Russians into severe debt, enough to wreck their economy, to try and develop counters to SDI, even though SDI was never that good. PsyOps are nothing new. This is the most likely solution, IMO.
2) Aliens? I think that the current concept of Aliens is unlikely (Aliens from another Solar System), but I do think that Time Travel would explain a lot of what we're seeing.
Time Travelers would need to have as little contact/interaction as possible, in order to keep the time line intact. That would explain why the photos are fuzzy (phase shifting would make it hard to focus on them). The "grays" people talk about are basic humanoid shape, and are possible evolutionary (or mutated) versions of humans.
Given enough time, humanity could develop the power systems and science necessary to develop time travel. The reasons to go back in time to study the planet are unclear, but it's possible they are trying to study the status of our biolife (especially the oceans), in order to restore the planet, or learn lessons in terraforming (something we're actually doing now with climate change).
If the UAP's are actually from non humans, they are likely AI drones. That would allow the incredible acceleration that's been reported. Why the drones are collecting information on various planets is another mystery, but Earth might be a target because of the water signature our planet has (something we can now dectect on exo planets with current technology). Water is considered a good indicator of possible life.
"These things are real". If they are unidentified, that is a really ignorant statement. What do you mean by "real"?
Some of the unidentified items have been deflated balloons. Those are real items, but not noteworthy.
Some of the unidentified things have been optical illusions(such as an array of lights in formation), cloud formations or even shadows. Those aren't real items and aren't noteworthy.
Being real means nothing if you don't know what it is - and the condundrum is if you don't know what it is, even calling it "real" is contradictory.
I don’t think you get it in on the contrary. Authentic footage exists of unidentified craft that are not US military operating in our sensitive air spaces, they are not camera artifacts, they are not lighting affects, they are not birds. They are not balloons. They are intelligent we control physical objects that we don’t know where the fuck they come from, period.
Your military personnel have arrested to their personal experiences as such. The DOD and DNI have corroborated it. Unknown means NOT lightbrite. Not birds. Not balloons. Not secret US tech. It cannot be explained using natural or prosaic means.
What does that leave? It seems we don’t know everything about what’s going on on this planet, let alone what could be out there beyond our limited use the universe.
The great conspiracy, as I’ve noticed in my own professional life and experience, is that the big secret really amounts to the people in power don’t want you to know how little they actually know about what’s going on.
I think UAP's fall under two catagories:
1) Current Military: The US or another country has developed tech that is way ahead of current thought, or this is a disinformation campaign by the military (fake videos or using current tech) to simulate what's been released). It wouldn't be a shock to discover that the goverment has lied about this, or that only people at the highest levels know what's going on.
Why disinformation? Remember what the US did back in the 80's against the USSR with SDI...we drove the Russians into severe debt, enough to wreck their economy, to try and develop counters to SDI, even though SDI was never that good. PsyOps are nothing new. This is the most likely solution, IMO.
2) Aliens? I think that the current concept of Aliens is unlikely (Aliens from another Solar System), but I do think that Time Travel would explain a lot of what we're seeing.
Time Travelers would need to have as little contact/interaction as possible, in order to keep the time line intact. That would explain why the photos are fuzzy (phase shifting would make it hard to focus on them). The "grays" people talk about are basic humanoid shape, and are possible evolutionary (or mutated) versions of humans.
Given enough time, humanity could develop the power systems and science necessary to develop time travel. The reasons to go back in time to study the planet are unclear, but it's possible they are trying to study the status of our biolife (especially the oceans), in order to restore the planet, or learn lessons in terraforming (something we're actually doing now with climate change).
If the UAP's are actually from non humans, they are likely AI drones. That would allow the incredible acceleration that's been reported. Why the drones are collecting information on various planets is another mystery, but Earth might be a target because of the water signature our planet has (something we can now dectect on exo planets with current technology). Water is considered a good indicator of possible life.
John I think that makes a lot of sense
That's not really a conspiracy is it? That's just a pithy statement that means nothing.
A conspiracy is an organized effort to disseminate falsehoods by a group working together to hide the real truth.
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The great conspiracy, as I’ve noticed in my own professional life and experience, is that the big secret really amounts to the people in power don’t want you to know how little they actually know about what’s going on.
That's not really a conspiracy is it? That's just a pithy statement that means nothing.
A conspiracy is an organized effort to disseminate falsehoods by a group working together to hide the real truth.
This guy throws a bunch of words he doesn’t understand the meaning to incessantly in an effort to sound like he’s making some sort of intellectual argument.
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The great conspiracy, as I’ve noticed in my own professional life and experience, is that the big secret really amounts to the people in power don’t want you to know how little they actually know about what’s going on.
That's not really a conspiracy is it? That's just a pithy statement that means nothing.
A conspiracy is an organized effort to disseminate falsehoods by a group working together to hide the real truth.
This guy throws a bunch of words he doesn’t understand the meaning to incessantly in an effort to sound like he’s making some sort of intellectual argument.
Y’all would prolly sit down in a shitty booth while I drink you under the table. It’s them or it’s us. It’s secret is waiting to be revealed one way or another.
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seem to get it.
"These things are real". If they are unidentified, that is a really ignorant statement. What do you mean by "real"?
Some of the unidentified items have been deflated balloons. Those are real items, but not noteworthy.
Some of the unidentified things have been optical illusions(such as an array of lights in formation), cloud formations or even shadows. Those aren't real items and aren't noteworthy.
Being real means nothing if you don't know what it is - and the condundrum is if you don't know what it is, even calling it "real" is contradictory.
I don’t think you get it in on the contrary. Authentic footage exists of unidentified craft that are not US military operating in our sensitive air spaces, they are not camera artifacts, they are not lighting affects, they are not birds. They are not balloons. They are intelligent we control physical objects that we don’t know where the fuck they come from, period.
Your military personnel have arrested to their personal experiences as such. The DOD and DNI have corroborated it. Unknown means NOT lightbrite. Not birds. Not balloons. Not secret US tech. It cannot be explained using natural or prosaic means.
What does that leave? It seems we don’t know everything about what’s going on on this planet, let alone what could be out there beyond our limited use the universe.
The great conspiracy, as I’ve noticed in my own professional life and experience, is that the big secret really amounts to the people in power don’t want you to know how little they actually know about what’s going on.
You are closer to the truth you seek with lite-brite, birds and balloons versus alleging a ridiculous government cover up.
And not for nothing, our government is made up of a whole lot of working class stiffs and elected professional and educated people you know in everyday life. While it sounds exciting to scream “Conspiracy” from the mountaintop, it’s rarely the right conclusion...
Tons and tons of examples of this in every nations history and all human institutions
Wake up They aren’t all-anything.
But it’s almost time for fireworks at my club so signing off now. Hopefully nobody mistakes them for UFOs. But you never know….
Nothing to see here…
They’re using common sense…
Link - ( New Window )
To study the UFO phenomenon adequately is, in actual fact, to study pretty much everything. It is also to come up against, hard, the realization that the institutional or university order of knowledge within which we work and think today, an order that effectively splits the sciences off from the humanities, is simply not helpful, and certainly not reflective of the reality we are trying to understand. The difficult truth is that the UFO phenomenon has both an objective “hard” aspect (think fighter jet videos, photographs, alleged metamaterials, apparent advanced propulsion methods, and landing marks) and a subjective “human” aspect (think close encounters, multiple and coordinated visual sightings, altered states of consciousness, visionary displays, often of a most baroque or sci-fi sort, and experienced traumatic or transcendent abductions). And both sides — both the material and the mental dimensions — are incredibly important to get a sense of the full picture.
Of course, one can slice up the UFO phenomenon into the “scientific” and the “humanistic,” but one will never understand it by doing so. That, in the end, is why I think the subject is so incredibly important: it bears a particular power to challenge, or just obliterate, our present order of knowledge and its arbitrary divisions. Whatever “it” is, it simply does not behave according to our rules and assumptions. Period.”
Link - ( New Window )
Matt... if you're trying to convince people and change their way of thinking, you're failing badly.
Matt... if you're trying to convince people and change their way of thinking, you're failing badly.
LOL. I was thinking the same exact thing. That write-up read like someone sprinkled in a bunch of large words without even knowing what the meaning was! "Baroque"?? OK
By the way - anyone ever wonder why the UFO's are commonly seen around military installations? Could be they are military?? Nahhhhhh
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I've seen in a long time. That Rice University crap is worse than psycho-babble, it's a desperate cry for psychological intervention.
Matt... if you're trying to convince people and change their way of thinking, you're failing badly.
LOL. I was thinking the same exact thing. That write-up read like someone sprinkled in a bunch of large words without even knowing what the meaning was! "Baroque"?? OK
By the way - anyone ever wonder why the UFO's are commonly seen around military installations? Could be they are military?? Nahhhhhh
I can't imagine how a nuclear explosion could cause people to see things previously unimaginable...
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I've seen in a long time. That Rice University crap is worse than psycho-babble, it's a desperate cry for psychological intervention.
Matt... if you're trying to convince people and change their way of thinking, you're failing badly.
LOL. I was thinking the same exact thing. That write-up read like someone sprinkled in a bunch of large words without even knowing what the meaning was! "Baroque"?? OK
By the way - anyone ever wonder why the UFO's are commonly seen around military installations? Could be they are military?? Nahhhhhh
I think mattlawson is Jeffrey Kripal, they have an uncanny similarity in writing styles.
If I find a cup full of shit, I either rinse it out or throw it away.
You're flooding the zone with the same kind of unreliable or unverifiable 'information' that plagues 'documentary' television shows on UFO's. There is always a hook to these shows that turns-out to be loosely bundled pieces of information that leads to the same villains (the US anti-UFO government cabal) and the same conclusion; "We don't know what it is and it's well beyond our understanding, but we have a good guess... Aliens!"
I'm coming back to see if the reference to "facts" have been backed up or that there has been credible images posted to back up the idea that "these things are real". Instead, I'm left with images of Lite-Brite and assorted ramblings that reference the term "Baroque" for some unknown reason....
A cup of shit seems pretty aptly decriptive
You’re own government just told you 143/144 events in the last 15 years they looked at remain unexplained.
How are you trying to paint me as some kind of psycho with those points as they are. This is happening right in front of us on real time - not a bad tv show
If anything, you're doing that all on your own. Strings of posts showing nothing. Rambling comments from questionable sources.
This is all on you, Chief.
And yet you keep coming back...
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Strings of posts showing nothing. Rambling comments from questionable sources.
And yet you keep coming back...
As do you. Is there a fucking point somewhere?
Yea, I'm coming to the UFO thread to see UFO content, good bad and in between.
Coming here just to argue and insult for a week? Now that would be psychotic.
So we have here anti-gravitic craft, or unmanned drones capable of those maneuvers back then, or something else that can explain those maneuvers if you take the black project US secret tech stance. I sincerely doubt in 2004 we had perfected that kind of technology - almost on 20 years nothing comes close to that in our inventory.
Unless you think everyone is lying through their teeth here - this is something we only wish we had. Would love the military to come out and say we’re just playing with our toys here - why wouldn’t they of a show of force is what their after. They haven’t.
So we have here anti-gravitic craft, or unmanned drones capable of those maneuvers back then, or something else that can explain those maneuvers if you take the black project US secret tech stance. I sincerely doubt in 2004 we had perfected that kind of technology - almost on 20 years nothing comes close to that in our inventory.
Unless you think everyone is lying through their teeth here - this is something we only wish we had. Would love the military to come out and say we’re just playing with our toys here - why wouldn’t they of a show of force is what their after. They haven’t.
Yeah, here's the thing: No civilian knew we had or were developing radar stealth aircraft. The F-117 was in development for over a decade until they were brought into service in 1983 and its widely publicized use in Desert Storm. Up until then, few in the Pentagon even know such aircraft existed and for anyone fortunate enough to see these craft in flight during the late 70s or early 80s, you'd easily think they were alien craft.
Now think about the thousands of projects that never made it to production.
So we have here anti-gravitic craft, or unmanned drones capable of those maneuvers back then, or something else that can explain those maneuvers if you take the black project US secret tech stance. I sincerely doubt in 2004 we had perfected that kind of technology - almost on 20 years nothing comes close to that in our inventory.
Unless you think everyone is lying through their teeth here - this is something we only wish we had. Would love the military to come out and say we’re just playing with our toys here - why wouldn’t they of a show of force is what their after. They haven’t.
Holographic projections to test the new radar. That would certainly be under the possibility of our secret tech and during a rare training exercise. There is no proof it was a physical object.
Since the average global flight time is 4 hours then the number is 144 quick incidents out of 3,286,000,000 hours of flying you are obsessing over an yet unclassified incidents that occurred .00000000173 of the time.
If they all happened.
I suspect most of us have a higher chance of seeing dancing elephants while sitting next to Eva Green in the next hour.
For me, this doesn't yet reach even the level of a First World Problem.
I dont think people are objecting to what fascinates you. I think they are prioritizing what matters to their lives.
Once they have made that decision for themselves, then continuing to try to convince them otherwise is someplace between nuts and trolling (a form of nuts).
Maybe you have another interest that someone might be engage in a discussion with you?
I'd want to hear the physics behind that theory. Convincing holograms are coming around but in super controlled settings (i.e. a room with special equipment). Doing that out at sea on a clear day in 2004 so that it's vivid enough to four people from two very different perspectives...That might be as much of an undertaking as a physical vehicle performing physics-defying maneuvers.
Then you factor in that it's is picked up by radar and IR...
I still think it's a physical vehicle/drone of some sort.
Link - ( New Window )
There are people here that saw the Phoenix lights and NOT flares, I’ve seen weird military looking type drones and I’ve seen orbs that take a bit more to explain. Something is happening that has been covered up and laughed at for decades. Compared to all the airline flights on the planet it doesn’t matter how small the % is - if it points to a non-human intelligence all it takes is 1 to be incredibly life changing. Why diminish that?
Believers have been made out to be fools. It stands to reason that as more admissions come out, the more explaining will have to be done going back decades. I don’t know how to government can possibly do that and not look horrible for all they’ve done to discredit and ruin peoples lives trying to drive these stories over the years. It’s the biggest story in the world - and people are proud to keep their heads in the sand on this. Mind boggling
"Only one of these need to be true," is not a compelling argument.
"Only one of these need to be true," is not a compelling argument.
I haven’t heard anything from you in response to explain what we’re seeing here to me thats compelling. I was fine with them being unidentified because that’s exactly what they are. They don’t know and neither do you.
Whether you believe Col Corso or not - glad these stories keep popping up
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You're doing the opposite of what you claimed to be after earlier.
To study the UFO phenomenon adequately is, in actual fact, to study pretty much everything. It is also to come up against, hard, the realization that the institutional or university order of knowledge within which we work and think today, an order that effectively splits the sciences off from the humanities, is simply not helpful, and certainly not reflective of the reality we are trying to understand. The difficult truth is that the UFO phenomenon has both an objective “hard” aspect (think fighter jet videos, photographs, alleged metamaterials, apparent advanced propulsion methods, and landing marks) and a subjective “human” aspect (think close encounters, multiple and coordinated visual sightings, altered states of consciousness, visionary displays, often of a most baroque or sci-fi sort, and experienced traumatic or transcendent abductions). And both sides — both the material and the mental dimensions — are incredibly important to get a sense of the full picture.
Of course, one can slice up the UFO phenomenon into the “scientific” and the “humanistic,” but one will never understand it by doing so. That, in the end, is why I think the subject is so incredibly important: it bears a particular power to challenge, or just obliterate, our present order of knowledge and its arbitrary divisions. Whatever “it” is, it simply does not behave according to our rules and assumptions. Period.” Link - ( New Window )
what a bunch of psycho-babble nonsense...
Pretty cool. If we're taking Navy patents at face value then we also have this "UFO" gravity drive tech figured out already.
Also interesting that Lockheed Martin has been talking about compact fusion reactors in the same timeframe.
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
This is why I don't trust these guys. In his own report he has tone that isn't consistent at all. He's just another guy that desperately wants to believe.
"The report carefully states that “some” UAPs may be Russian or Chinese, although it plainly acknowledges there is no evidence of that. Notice the report says only “some.” Given that military sightings of these bizarre craft have been occurring since the 1940’s, it seems inconceivable the U.S., Russia, or China can account for the phenomenon in its entirety."
So here he's essentially alluding to the fact its some advanced beings. But then here it's a national security issue and something must be done!
"I suggest we begin by recognizing that the immediate challenge is existential, not academic. It is first and foremost a matter of national security. There is nothing anyone is going to see through a telescope that helps to resolve the issue and the best tools we have available to find answers are, right now, mostly in the hands of the national security community."
What could we possibly do if it's aliens? What can we do other than try to observe and what could possibly be gleaned from just observing? Not much. Real life isn't Indepance Day or The Tomorrow War. They would be so much further advanced than us only hope is that they aren't hostile. And if it's truly aliens that are hostile, we'd be wiped already or they are on their way. Nothing we can do about it.
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Direct quote, cheapened is right
"In recent weeks, the author and podcaster Sam Harris, in no fewer than three separate podcasts, has stated repeatedly and unambiguously that someone in or with connections to the U.S. government has personally reached out to him so that he can begin to wrap his brain around the fact that UFOs represent a non-human intelligence and think about how he might help prepare the public for that disclosure."
I mean that could be fucking Lou Elizonda and Tom Delonge by that definition. Dude, this is why nobody trusts your interpretation of data. This is not a big deal at all. Not to mention it's a quote from an entertainer, it's called self-promotion especially when details are light.
I subscribe to Sam Harris' paid podcasts and I've listened to all three of those podcasts. One of those was with Neil de Grasse Tyson, which I cited above. That "article" is editorializing what Harris said - at best.
I suggest you listen to the podcasts. Most sensible folks would not come away with that impression.
It isn't really a disagreement here. It is the continual confusion on what information you are posting and why you're doing it.
What purpose is emptying your archives of half-baked information serving?
The request made way above on this thread was to show credible information and photos that show concrete evidence and you've provided nothing to meet that criteria.
You took it as a call to flood the page with a bunch of nonsensical shit, especially the Jeffrey Kipral piece (do some investigation on that kook). And to exhibit odd things like the belief in dowsing.
The Die Glocke - ( New Window )
Based on that experience I guess I should be expecting the anal probe soon enough.
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This is kindof a big deal. Link - ( New Window )
I subscribe to Sam Harris' paid podcasts and I've listened to all three of those podcasts. One of those was with Neil de Grasse Tyson, which I cited above. That "article" is editorializing what Harris said - at best.
I suggest you listen to the podcasts. Most sensible folks would not come away with that impression.
I did listen to the podcasts, 2 of the 3 mentioned. I followed Sam Harris for the better part of a decade and to try to minimize this when he has spent a career Systematically breaking down religious views of all kinds, and leaning hard-core in the pursuit of scientific truth, when he comes out and says something like this which is not an inaccurate take on his comments… it’s a big Fucking deal. Sam Harris is not in the position of making bold claims like that around fringe topics like this especially for clicks.
Combining three quotes into one post, editorializing? I think you’re trying to downplay the ultimate message of what he’s trying to get across
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In comment 15300661 mattlawson said:
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This is kindof a big deal. Link - ( New Window )
I subscribe to Sam Harris' paid podcasts and I've listened to all three of those podcasts. One of those was with Neil de Grasse Tyson, which I cited above. That "article" is editorializing what Harris said - at best.
I suggest you listen to the podcasts. Most sensible folks would not come away with that impression.
I did listen to the podcasts, 2 of the 3 mentioned. I followed Sam Harris for the better part of a decade and to try to minimize this when he has spent a career Systematically breaking down religious views of all kinds, and leaning hard-core in the pursuit of scientific truth, when he comes out and says something like this which is not an inaccurate take on his comments… it’s a big Fucking deal. Sam Harris is not in the position of making bold claims like that around fringe topics like this especially for clicks.
Combining three quotes into one post, editorializing? I think you’re trying to downplay the ultimate message of what he’s trying to get across
I think you're searching for any flotsam you can latch onto to make your position appear steady and well reasoned.
Harris' comments are in no way indicative of his beliefs in ETs - one way or another. And no, it's not a big deal.
That specific item - i’ve never seen anything to really blow my hair back on that one. I do think the US got whatever they could from their scientists and it set off a race between US and Russia after the war.
Of those you've interacted with on this thread, how many do you think you have convinced of time-traveling beings, ETs, unnatural phenomena, et al? Give me a percentage.
“ “I’ve received some private outreach, and perhaps you have, I know other people in our orbit have, people who are claiming that the government has known much more about UFOs than they have let on until now, and this conversation is actually about to become more prominent, and … whoever is left standing when the music stops, it’s not going to be a comfortable position to be in as a super rigorous scientific skeptic who’s been saying there’s no there there for the last 75 years.”
“ “I’ve received some private outreach, and perhaps you have, I know other people in our orbit have, people who are claiming that the government has known much more about UFOs than they have let on until now, and this conversation is actually about to become more prominent, and … whoever is left standing when the music stops, it’s not going to be a comfortable position to be in as a super rigorous scientific skeptic who’s been saying there’s no there there for the last 75 years.”
Are you for real?
What part of, "I've received some private outreach," leads you to believe a government official specifically selected Sam Harris to usher in the ET era in America? What part of that statement leads you to believe he believes UAPs originate offworld?
Again, you're mischaracterizing what he's saying from, "If it's ETs, it will be interesting," to "I know something you don't".
It's big news only to those who can't read.
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Won’t it. Until then the objective is to keep going
Of those you've interacted with on this thread, how many do you think you have convinced of time-traveling beings, ETs, unnatural phenomena, et al? Give me a percentage.
Really hard to say, especially given the circumstances of How the conversation has gone. Had it been in person and I can observe the audience, interact a bit more, I’d have a better idea.
My goal is not really to outright convince, too lofty. Cliche but It’s up to you to decide. all I’m doing is sharing what that I think is not easily debunked data and then hope that makes you think. There’s a lot of information out there that I think most people are not familiar with unless they follow the topic extremely closely, which no one does here I gather. very few do.
There’s been very little feedback here from the gallery except for the trolls and skeptics, typical. I think for a lot of reasons, many people just choose to lurk especially in these topics, but another portion of humanity would not want to be so forthcoming with what they cannot explain and don’t know. That is actually the most fun part of what I do for work - getting people to explain their view of ambiguity and make decisions from there. Here at BBI given the culture - the stakes are so high for being trolled incessantly after you’ve come out and said ‘hey I’m kind of into this fringe topic, what do you all think?’ And you know - who can blame them, it’s sort of a form of social suicide for a lot of people but I really don’t give a shit. Do you think I’m sabotaging myself? You all know absolutely nothing about me other than the fact that I like the Giants, like to fish, am a good cook and like to discuss paranormal NFTs
It would be awesome for people to come out of the woodwork and start saying hey you know what you’ve given us a lot to think about and I had no idea any of this was going on, I had no idea the military was so invested in this kind of disclosure these days, etc. but it probably will not happen.
My genuine hope is something new comes out every day or two so we can keep this thread going.
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Than in support of UAPs exist and have likely non-human origins in terms of the technology
“ “I’ve received some private outreach, and perhaps you have, I know other people in our orbit have, people who are claiming that the government has known much more about UFOs than they have let on until now, and this conversation is actually about to become more prominent, and … whoever is left standing when the music stops, it’s not going to be a comfortable position to be in as a super rigorous scientific skeptic who’s been saying there’s no there there for the last 75 years.”
Are you for real?
What part of, "I've received some private outreach," leads you to believe a government official specifically selected Sam Harris to usher in the ET era in America? What part of that statement leads you to believe he believes UAPs originate offworld?
Again, you're mischaracterizing what he's saying from, "If it's ETs, it will be interesting," to "I know something you don't".
It's big news only to those who can't read.
Didn’t he say a former government official? Up until this point - Is he credible or not? Why would he lie about that? Why would he risk his reputation and credibility for a couple of podcast points?
Point is - it’s a big fucking deal when a scientist of his stature comes out it and says skeptics are going to be in trouble as disclosure of UFO information comes out.
Learn more.
Be respected
Be thanked
Make friends
Go to Area 51 together and camp out with telescopes. Then come back in time for the Giants Season.
Why spend time with skeptics and trolls of your topic, hobby and interest? Go enjoy it.
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In comment 15300735 mattlawson said:
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Than in support of UAPs exist and have likely non-human origins in terms of the technology
“ “I’ve received some private outreach, and perhaps you have, I know other people in our orbit have, people who are claiming that the government has known much more about UFOs than they have let on until now, and this conversation is actually about to become more prominent, and … whoever is left standing when the music stops, it’s not going to be a comfortable position to be in as a super rigorous scientific skeptic who’s been saying there’s no there there for the last 75 years.”
Are you for real?
What part of, "I've received some private outreach," leads you to believe a government official specifically selected Sam Harris to usher in the ET era in America? What part of that statement leads you to believe he believes UAPs originate offworld?
Again, you're mischaracterizing what he's saying from, "If it's ETs, it will be interesting," to "I know something you don't".
It's big news only to those who can't read.
Didn’t he say a former government official? Up until this point - Is he credible or not? Why would he lie about that? Why would he risk his reputation and credibility for a couple of podcast points?
Point is - it’s a big fucking deal when a scientist of his stature comes out it and says skeptics are going to be in trouble as disclosure of UFO information comes out.
I don't think he's lying or risked his reputation because as he didn't say what you think he said. All he's said is that some private entities (he and NDT are acquiantences of) had reached out to him. That's it. You ran with it and inferred a bunch of stuff he's never said.
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In comment 15300740 PwndPapi said:
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In comment 15300735 mattlawson said:
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Than in support of UAPs exist and have likely non-human origins in terms of the technology
“ “I’ve received some private outreach, and perhaps you have, I know other people in our orbit have, people who are claiming that the government has known much more about UFOs than they have let on until now, and this conversation is actually about to become more prominent, and … whoever is left standing when the music stops, it’s not going to be a comfortable position to be in as a super rigorous scientific skeptic who’s been saying there’s no there there for the last 75 years.”
Are you for real?
What part of, "I've received some private outreach," leads you to believe a government official specifically selected Sam Harris to usher in the ET era in America? What part of that statement leads you to believe he believes UAPs originate offworld?
Again, you're mischaracterizing what he's saying from, "If it's ETs, it will be interesting," to "I know something you don't".
It's big news only to those who can't read.
Didn’t he say a former government official? Up until this point - Is he credible or not? Why would he lie about that? Why would he risk his reputation and credibility for a couple of podcast points?
Point is - it’s a big fucking deal when a scientist of his stature comes out it and says skeptics are going to be in trouble as disclosure of UFO information comes out.
I don't think he's lying or risked his reputation because as he didn't say what you think he said. All he's said is that some private entities (he and NDT are acquiantences of) had reached out to him. That's it. You ran with it and inferred a bunch of stuff he's never said.
Why even touch it if you’re him, and he did say it. He literally said it in his own words and of his own volition. Why relay the story all?
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In comment 15300752 mattlawson said:
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In comment 15300740 PwndPapi said:
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In comment 15300735 mattlawson said:
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Than in support of UAPs exist and have likely non-human origins in terms of the technology
“ “I’ve received some private outreach, and perhaps you have, I know other people in our orbit have, people who are claiming that the government has known much more about UFOs than they have let on until now, and this conversation is actually about to become more prominent, and … whoever is left standing when the music stops, it’s not going to be a comfortable position to be in as a super rigorous scientific skeptic who’s been saying there’s no there there for the last 75 years.”
Are you for real?
What part of, "I've received some private outreach," leads you to believe a government official specifically selected Sam Harris to usher in the ET era in America? What part of that statement leads you to believe he believes UAPs originate offworld?
Again, you're mischaracterizing what he's saying from, "If it's ETs, it will be interesting," to "I know something you don't".
It's big news only to those who can't read.
Didn’t he say a former government official? Up until this point - Is he credible or not? Why would he lie about that? Why would he risk his reputation and credibility for a couple of podcast points?
Point is - it’s a big fucking deal when a scientist of his stature comes out it and says skeptics are going to be in trouble as disclosure of UFO information comes out.
I don't think he's lying or risked his reputation because as he didn't say what you think he said. All he's said is that some private entities (he and NDT are acquiantences of) had reached out to him. That's it. You ran with it and inferred a bunch of stuff he's never said.
Why even touch it if you’re him, and he did say it. He literally said it in his own words and of his own volition. Why relay the story all?
Presumably, the vast majority of his listeners are capable of hearing what he's saying without needing to shoehorn his thoughts into their UFO conspiracies.
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And you had to share?
Learn more.
Be respected
Be thanked
Make friends
Go to Area 51 together and camp out with telescopes. Then come back in time for the Giants Season.
Why spend time with skeptics and trolls of your topic, hobby and interest? Go enjoy it.
I do follow the topic elsewhere
And you had to share?
Correct!
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just came across it??
And you had to share?
Correct!
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Apple Podcast - Project Human - ( New Window )
This basically was his version of a porn dump.
And you can stop posting useless links and info at any time too.
This is a great one, complete with government cover up. They told the teacher Andrews to be quiet or else he'd lose his job
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200 witnesses, military threatened him if he ever spoke about it. Westall is one of the major mass UFO sightings in Australia Link - ( New Window )
This is a great one, complete with government cover up. They told the teacher Andrews to be quiet or else he'd lose his job
There are many reasons that the military would tell him to shut up about it other than aliens.
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To me... this is the single most compelling (alien, interdimensional, future human, etc.) encounter. It is absolutely bizarre, but impossible for all of those children to be guided in their intial witness testimony, or their recollections decades later. This is the gold standard to say there is something that we can't comprehend.
James Fox concluded his amazing doc The Phenomenon with several minutes of Ariel School - was really well done
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Those reports indicate anything from lat/long coordinates of specific earth sites, to code translated to suggest they are time traveling future human anthropologists. All just rumors, as nothing has ever been confirmed about this supposed binary code.
Given the nature of it being a military base however, it does appear something happened there of significance. Whatever it is, it remains secret.
VA granted treatments for heart issues because there was paperwork that said the area had higher radiation levels. However, if you look at the link, there is definitely some confusion over them and the site did hold nuclear weapons for 25 years. Guy looks like he lucked out on a claim more than anything. This is why I don't trust any of the way these things are framed. It's always a bunch of kooks that seem like they are actively trying to push their alien theory without painting the whole picture.
They were trying to make it look like McCain himself was like yeah there are UAPs and we need to do something about it. When in reality, he's just a veteran writing him to have his claim approved when he has some paperwork to back it up. Senators can have those things expedited.
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UFOs are an intriguing science problem - ( New Window )
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BBC posted this one yesterday Link - ( New Window )
To me... this is the single most compelling (alien, interdimensional, future human, etc.) encounter. It is absolutely bizarre, but impossible for all of those children to be guided in their intial witness testimony, or their recollections decades later. This is the gold standard to say there is something that we can't comprehend.
For modern day this is a good one. During the technological age for sure. But for me the newspaper article from Texas near the turn of the century 1900’s is still the most compelling. Absolutely nothing to gain and it’s written so matter of factly, it’s amazing.
I watched an interview with the only British soldier that said he touched the craft. The binary code, he claimed, had coordinates to an old “highly technological/advanced” island off the European coast called new Brasil.
But like others mentioned, he didn’t come out with this information until fairly recently.
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Weren’t they also drugged? And it’s odd that the binary code piece didn’t come out for like 25 years. Something beyond the misidentified lighthouse explanation happened there but it’s hard to say what it is. Still - a great unsolved mystery that involves UFOs, Nukes, and a coverup.
I watched an interview with the only British soldier that said he touched the craft. The binary code, he claimed, had coordinates to an old “highly technological/advanced” island off the European coast called new Brasil.
But like others mentioned, he didn’t come out with this information until fairly recently.
And the island disappeared back in ancient times. A la Atlantis.
Worth a read ;)
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Intentionally leaving out much of the information here, but confirmed they exist.
This has happened to me… even more diabolical is when they put the glasses someplace I already looked.
Intentionally leaving out much of the information here, but confirmed they exist.
So 30 years later the only info leak was to you?
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Ooh a jet escort! Good pic on pic.
I still enjoy the Hawaii lite-brite competition the best...
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He said there were times when they were diverted from these missions to track UFOs off the east coast of Florida. His claim was the UFOs had a landing and takeoff spot in the ocean east of Miami, north of Bermuda. He also claimed there was a specific electronic signature (frequency) emanating from them when they were going into or coming out of the water, so they were easy to track. On several occasions they filmed the UFO as it transitioned from water to air or vice versa.”
Fish goes on to note that this same individual was occasionally assigned to fly in a USAF weather aircraft during “hurricane-hunting” missions over the same area where UAPs were, by then, known to enter and emerge from the ocean.
“His specific assignment was kept secret from the other crew members. He would always report back to a dedicated USAF intelligence officer on base when they returned from a mission. He did not know where the intel that he collected was sent for processing or storage … (h)igh quality film of UFOs is ‘out there’ somewhere!”
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I miss that show.
I wondered what the "state of mind" bit was referring to. Came across this interview by George Knapp and the "Summoners," a group of hobbyists who are seemingly able to summon a light phenomenon in the sky (and in some cases under the ocean) after performing a sort of meditation. And then they record it. They all agree its somehow linked to consciousness and that anyone can do it, but they differ on what it is they are seeing.
Meet the “Summoners” - ( New Window )
My wife and I have seen orbs before in the night sky, not that we’ve called them or anything but certainly OPEN to this way of thinking
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- The annoyingly persistent mattlawson
- The annoyingly persistent mattlawson
Actually that you find Mick West bogus actually helps my position
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Staying alive, staying alive!
How deep is your love?
More than a woman
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Great video. Multi-spectral collections with human observations confirm the presence of a 3 dimensional object. The problem for all of us is identification and origin. We have no frame of reference. Another reminder that we are not able to understand everything we sense or see…
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The Galileo Project follows three major avenues of research:
Obtain High-resolution, Multi-detector UAP Images, Discover their Nature:
A picture is worth a thousand words. For example, a megapixel image of the surface of a human-scale UAP object at a distance of a mile will allow to distinguish the label: “Made in Country X” from the potential alternative “Made by ETC Y” on a nearby exoplanet in our galaxy. This goal will be accomplished by searching for UAP with a network of mid-sized, high-resolution telescopes and detector arrays with suitable cameras and computer systems, distributed in select locations. The data will be open to the public and the scientific analysis will be transparent.
We anticipate extensive Artificial Intelligence/Deep Learning (AI/DL) and algorithmic approaches to differentiate atmospheric phenomena from birds, balloons, commercial or consumer drones, and from potential technological objects of terrestrial or other origin surveying our planet, such as satellites. For the purpose of high contrast imaging, each telescope will be part of a detector array of orthogonal and complementary capabilities from radar, Doppler radar and high-resolution synthetic aperture radar to high-resolution, large camera visible range and infrared band telescopes. If an ETC is discovered to be surveying Earth using UAP, then we have to assume that the ETC has mastered passive radar, optical and infrared technologies. In such a case, our systematic study of such detected UAP will be enhanced by means of high-performance, integrated and multi-wavelength detector arrays.
2. Search for and In-Depth Research on ‘Oumuamua-like Interstellar Objects:
The Galileo Project research group also will utilize existing and future astronomical surveys, such as the future Legacy Survey of Space and Time (LSST)[1] at the Vera C. Rubin Observatory (VRO), to discover and monitor the properties of interstellar visitors to the Solar system.
We will conceptualize and design, potentially in collaboration with interested space agencies or space ventures, a launch-ready space mission to image unusual interstellar objects such as ‘Oumuamua by intercepting their trajectories on their approach to the Sun or by using ground-based survey telescopes to discover interstellar meteors.
3. Search for Potential ETC Satellites:
Discovering potential 1 meter-scale or smaller satellites that may be exploring Earth, e.g., in polar orbits a few hundred km above Earth, may become feasible with VRO in 2023 and later, but if radar, optical and infrared technologies have been mastered by an ETC, then very sophisticated large telescopes on Earth might be required. We will design advanced algorithmic and AI/DL object recognition and fast filtering methods that the Galileo Project intends to deploy, initially on non-orbiting telescopes.
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I miss Summerall.
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-Someone on the Internet.
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You've cheapened the word documentary worse than you've cheapened the topic of UFO's throughout this thread that you keep bumping with absolute trash
You've cheapened the word documentary worse than you've cheapened the topic of UFO's throughout this thread that you keep bumping with absolute trash
Yeah... It's time to stop beating this dead horse and talk about Sasquatch.
LOL. It's so bad - it only takes 10 seconds to tell. Let me guess - it was a fine cinematic achievement?
One can only process so many of these videos before they all begin to blend. Whether the video is 48 seconds, or 48 minutes the result is identical...
I can't put my finger on the exact moment, but at some point in time, this thread got very interesting. Kind of like watching one of those pimple popper shows. As much as you are repulsed and want to look away, you just can't. So, UFO or 76 pound tumor... bring it on!
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obsessive. Normally I would say no one else respond but I doubt if that would stop it.
I can't put my finger on the exact moment, but at some point in time, this thread got very interesting. Kind of like watching one of those pimple popper shows. As much as you are repulsed and want to look away, you just can't. So, UFO or 76 pound tumor... bring it on!
I'm here for the new UFO news. Lol
Cmdr. Chad Underwood - ( New Window )