Syracuse
McNeil 1-4 2 k's (just missed a granny)
Blankenhorn 1-4, 2 BB
Lee 0-4, BB, SB, 3 k's
Almora 1-3, BB
Nogosek....1.1 innings 6 hits 7 runs 1 walk 1 k (arguably the worst line from any Mets P this season, yikes)
Bing
Cortes 2-4, BB (OPS up to .911)
Mangum 0-4, 2 k's
Vientos 2-4, BB, K (He's struggled but over his last 5 games he's reached base 8 times)
BK
Mauricio 1-4
Baty 1-4, 3 k's
Alvarez 1-4, K
Lasko 6 innings 3 hits 1 run 0 walks 4 k's
St. Lucie
Ramirez 1-4, HR, BB, K (First professional HR)
Suozzi 2-5
Palmer 1-5, K
Ginn 4 innings 1 hit 0 runs 0 walks 5 k's (To me, easily the player of the day in the system)
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"It is a fairly well-known fact, by this point, that teams do not care if pitchers apply a foreign substance to a ball so long as it’s for purposes of grip, which hitters reason keeps them safer. MLB doesn’t seem to mind, either, rarely meting out discipline even though Rule 8.02(a)(4) says pitchers cannot “apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball.” Whether it was pine tar or a sunscreen-and-rosin combination that oozed on Pineda’s right palm, the Boston Red Sox thought so little of it that they shrugged it off. Which, considering their recent history with pitchers caught using foreign substances, was exactly how they should’ve handled it."
Pineda was ejected from the game and suspended 10 days
Red Sox shrugged it offl LOL, better scrub the internet...the justification for cheating is so selective - you can make an argument for cheating any way you want.
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...Pineda had already been warned, by the same Red Sox after a similar incident in a game earlier this year, to at least be a bit more discreet about using the illegal substance, which is widely used by pitchers throughout the league. Pine tar doesn’t alter the flight of a baseball, the way spit would in the old days, so it’s been quietly tolerated. Within limits. If there’s one thing the Red Sox won’t tolerate, it’s cheaters who refuse to cheat by the rules. ...
and like sign stealing, Cole's texts clearly took this "accepted practice of cheating" to a whole different level.
spider tack wasn't just for grip, it's almost like the guy who takes PEDs or HgH because he's recovering from an injury.
All this shit makes a mockery out of the sport and if you don't see that or say "everyone was doing it" there is your cognitive dissonance
Who is defending spider tack? It's clearly gone too far but Josh Donaldson was maybe the first to cite actual "cheaters" and even he supported using sun screen and rosin etc. So what does that tell you?
Logenhagen has forgotten more than I will ever know about prospects (Vientos included) but not sure how easy it is for anyone to accurately evaluate off 29 games at a new level, after a lost year for everyone. If he's watching every prospect in baseball to that level accurately all the power to him.
Also here's the link to Law's 2019 list where he had Vientos ranked #60 so I was little bit off, but he did have him as the top prospect in the NYM system. It's insider but there's not much in his scouting report that has changed too much unless we think Viento's current k-rate is un-improvable (and I see no reason to think that).
60. Mark Vientos, 3B, New York Mets
Vientos has been a bit of a forgotten man in the Mets' system, with more highly touted prospects around him, some playing at higher levels, as well as undue attention given to a publicity stunt in their Double-A outfield last year. But trades and Vientos' own progress have him as the system's best prospect now, and he is set to spend all of 2019 in full-season ball at age 19 after a very strong summer with short-season Kingsport as a true 18-year-old. Vientos finished tied for fourth in the Appalachian League in homers, fifth in walks and tied for 11th in doubles, with a swing optimized for launch angle but that also gets the barrel into the zone for enough time to maximize his hard contact.
A poor defensive shortstop in high school, Vientos has become an adequate defender at third, still improving but also still growing into his 6-foot-4 frame, so there's some chance he has to move off the position just due to sheer size. His OBP/contact/power profile should play anywhere, with his best chance to be a star coming at third but a high probability that he will be a regular even in right field or at first base.
(vientos had a respectable year at Columbus in the year following this write-up, then obviously last year happened).
https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/25852941/keith-law-2019-top-prospects-nos-100-51 - ( New Window )
But how much of that can the league control? They can't tell players you can't swing for the HR. They can't increase "punishments" if you K. They could outlaw the shift, I guess, but that is controversial.
Pitchers using foreign substances is the one thing the league can control to try and get some more offense in the game
"Just think about how many pitches I've seen in my career, think about Nelson Cruz, a lot of these guys who have seen a lot of pitches," he said. "We know when stuff's up. It's hard to probably find the ingredient to what's causing that. But now that there's been some enlightenment to that, that's why you're seeing guys take a stance on it."
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who had been the high man on him, dropped him completely off the fangraphs board (from 105) so it's not just my "unfair" take. It's 29 games into the season but at some point "offense only" power prospects need to show signs, to this point he has not.
Logenhagen has forgotten more than I will ever know about prospects (Vientos included) but not sure how easy it is for anyone to accurately evaluate off 29 games at a new level, after a lost year for everyone. If he's watching every prospect in baseball to that level accurately all the power to him.
Also here's the link to Law's 2019 list where he had Vientos ranked #60 so I was little bit off, but he did have him as the top prospect in the NYM system. It's insider but there's not much in his scouting report that has changed too much unless we think Viento's current k-rate is un-improvable (and I see no reason to think that).
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60. Mark Vientos, 3B, New York Mets
Vientos has been a bit of a forgotten man in the Mets' system, with more highly touted prospects around him, some playing at higher levels, as well as undue attention given to a publicity stunt in their Double-A outfield last year. But trades and Vientos' own progress have him as the system's best prospect now, and he is set to spend all of 2019 in full-season ball at age 19 after a very strong summer with short-season Kingsport as a true 18-year-old. Vientos finished tied for fourth in the Appalachian League in homers, fifth in walks and tied for 11th in doubles, with a swing optimized for launch angle but that also gets the barrel into the zone for enough time to maximize his hard contact.
A poor defensive shortstop in high school, Vientos has become an adequate defender at third, still improving but also still growing into his 6-foot-4 frame, so there's some chance he has to move off the position just due to sheer size. His OBP/contact/power profile should play anywhere, with his best chance to be a star coming at third but a high probability that he will be a regular even in right field or at first base.
(vientos had a respectable year at Columbus in the year following this write-up, then obviously last year happened). https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/25852941/keith-law-2019-top-prospects-nos-100-51 - ( New Window )
He left Vientos off his 2020 list aka he clearly thought less of him than he did prior. That's a 40+ slot drop. You don't agree that implies he liked him less despite a "respectable season"? If Law has been anything it's been consistent on guys he liked. He never gave up on Dom Smith and went down swinging with awful Cecchini.
But how much of that can the league control? They can't tell players you can't swing for the HR. They can't increase "punishments" if you K. They could outlaw the shift, I guess, but that is controversial.
Pitchers using foreign substances is the one thing the league can control to try and get some more offense in the game
I can bet you anything that the league will suddenly allow some sort of approved substance next season (assuming there is a next season)
why? MLB didn't have a rule specifically banning an performance enhancing substance.
Now McGwire (just using him as an example) as we now know did worse than that, maybe just like players who openly discuss using a substance that helps them get a better grip on the ball - when in reality they are doing things to increase spin rate.
the right thing to do is change the rules, like with sign stealing, like with PEDs it's not to have unwritten rules or in this case - actual rules that are just not enforced.
Maybe if a pitcher is so wild without putting something on the ball he shouldn't be a major league pitcher - think about the guy in the minors struggling to make it to the majors who doesn't use foreign substances on the ball to help him - that guys jobs is potentially being stolen by a cheater - sounds a lot like the PED argument, right?
anyway, no need to further this - we can agree to disagree - to me there are rules, rules should be enforced (or changed) and breaking the rules should have consequences, once you decide to not enforce some rules you are creating a slippery slope - or a mockery of your sport.
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increased Ks, lower BA, and less action. Among them are the shift, the focus on launch angle, the culture change in strikeouts no longer being an embarrassment, analytics favoring HR ball vs station to station baseball.
But how much of that can the league control? They can't tell players you can't swing for the HR. They can't increase "punishments" if you K. They could outlaw the shift, I guess, but that is controversial.
Pitchers using foreign substances is the one thing the league can control to try and get some more offense in the game
I can bet you anything that the league will suddenly allow some sort of approved substance next season (assuming there is a next season)
Which I am fine with. It is their prerogative. It's the old tale of give em an inch, they'll take a mile. It has gotten so bad that baseball is banning them all. They may do some research and studies and say X is fine, but Y is not.
Swap Vientos to BKLN for Baty and how do you think the stats and narratives around each of them potentially change? The context of how old players are relative to the league they play in is kind of a big deal. As is if they've been forced to skip an entire level like Vientos was.
Not worried about him one bit. He's a baby. 18 years old.
Swap Vientos to BKLN for Baty and how do you think the stats and narratives around each of them potentially change? The context of how old players are relative to the league they play in is kind of a big deal. As is if they've been forced to skip an entire level like Vientos was.
First first and foremost, Baty is looking more and more like an MLB 3b so that alone is a huge difference between the 2, Baty also showed advanced plate discipline as a 19 year old, which again (as we discussed above) is a major building block offensively. 35 walks over 188 ab's at 19 gives you something to dream on. Jarrett Seidler, Kevin Goldstein and Jeff Paternosto have all given different levels of "sold" on Baty after in-person scouting this year. It's not all about reading the statlines.
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Ramirez who has been off to a rough start to his career just singled after hitting his first professional HR yesterday.
Not worried about him one bit. He's a baby. 18 years old.
I'm not worried about him either, he's struggled out of the gate. No biggy.
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even when they do top 100 lists at the pro levels they vary wildly year to year, guys who have career years move up and guys who have down years move down. Sometimes players have down years. If I recall correctly the full season in Columbia was an aggressive placement for Vientos and AA off a lost year is an aggressive placement as well.
Swap Vientos to BKLN for Baty and how do you think the stats and narratives around each of them potentially change? The context of how old players are relative to the league they play in is kind of a big deal. As is if they've been forced to skip an entire level like Vientos was.
First first and foremost, Baty is looking more and more like an MLB 3b so that alone is a huge difference between the 2, Baty also showed advanced plate discipline as a 19 year old, which again (as we discussed above) is a major building block offensively. 35 walks over 188 ab's at 19 gives you something to dream on. Jarrett Seidler, Kevin Goldstein and Jeff Paternosto have all given different levels of "sold" on Baty after in-person scouting this year. It's not all about reading the statlines.
the relationship between impressive statlines and writers being "sold" is quite high. just a guess but I think the writing community ebbs and flows with their assessments far more impatiently than the real scouts employed by mlb teams do. The media business model necessitates listicles, hot takes, clickbait, and driving readership/subscribers. Far more than boring caveats about being patient because some players need more time to adjust than others.
What role was he supposed to play? I never quite understood the appeal. Not special defensively or offensively from what I could tell.
from the argument or from vientos?
apart from that I think it's fair to acknowledge that nobody is clairvoyant and nobody knows how these guys will progress (especially true the younger the players are and even moreso after last year's unique interuption). In 2013 nobody would believe JDG would be pumping out 102 mph fastballs regularly. Multiple whose opinions we all respect said Alonso was unplayable in the field. Even this past offseason how many crapped on Taijuan Walker as a guy trading off his former reputation?
i've seen enough players defy odds to believe in the "dont quit on talent" axiom where talent is visible - and to put a bow on my entire diatribe re Vientos the in game power and XBH rate he's showing despite a big jump in comp level is most certainly a talent I would not quit on.
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you're really oversimplifying this. Jarrett Seidler of Baseball Prospectus is a Mets fan, he attended the Cyclones entire homestand 2 weeks ago and came away completely sold on Baty. Kevin Goldstein also came away very impressed with him (though he did think his glove was closer to a 40/80). Again, the buzz Baty is getting is of course related to his numbers but also how he's looked doing it. Vientos sub-300 OBP over a nearly full season of games (2019/2021) is a major red flag. We should probably move on here.
from the argument or from vientos?
Haha sorry from the argument/discussion not from Vientos.
apart from that I think it's fair to acknowledge that nobody is clairvoyant and nobody knows how these guys will progress (especially true the younger the players are and even moreso after last year's unique interuption). In 2013 nobody would believe JDG would be pumping out 102 mph fastballs regularly. Multiple whose opinions we all respect said Alonso was unplayable in the field. Even this past offseason how many crapped on Taijuan Walker as a guy trading off his former reputation?
i've seen enough players defy odds to believe in the "dont quit on talent" axiom where talent is visible - and to put a bow on my entire diatribe re Vientos the in game power and XBH rate he's showing despite a big jump in comp level is most certainly a talent I would not quit on.
Eric,
Of course this is somewhat true but in that situation we might as well say "any prospect with a modicum of talent could end up with a surprising outcome". Mike Trout had 24 people go before him he's a top 10 player ever. Junior Santos (random name pull) could come in next year touching 99 and shock everybody but quite frankly what's the point of these threads? To just look at statlines and say "all of these guys are professionals, they could defy the odds" and leave it there? Of course people can choose to do that, doesn't seem like much "fun" to me.
No different than "well the Giants (I'm using a random player) Elerson Smith round 4 and I'm shocking everybody and becoming Junior Seau. There will be guys like that (Jacob DeGrom) but you look for trends and high strike out, lowish walk, limited defensive players are a low probability to shock. His floor is a non-MLB player, a guy like PCA (unless his shoulder issue completely fucked him) will see the big leagues.
Betances in to pitch
Bauer: “Allow it. I don’t see that there’s a way to enforce it, because you can’t go check a pitcher every single inning, every single pitch, and that’s currently how it is. You can get thrown out of a game and suspended for it if an umpire comes out and checks and finds out. But, it doesn’t happen. So, pick a substance that’s sticky, that gives you all the performance benefits, and just put it on the back of the mound. That way, if you want to use it you can and everybody knows it’s being used. And, if you want to use other substances and skirt the rule, whatever. Have a certain amount of outlawed substances — vaseline or whatever. But, if you want to use sticky stuff, it’s right there on the mound. Put your fingers on it and throw.
“A lot of hitters are fine with it, because like it’s been said, they don’t want projectiles flying at 100 mph at their head and the pitcher has no clue where it’s going. And over 69-percent of the league probably uses it anyway, so there’s not really a whole lot of difference. But, just make it legal, so that way it’s an even playing field. And that way, when I want to use surgical-grade stuff on my stitches on the backside of a pinky finger that’s never going to touch the ball and has no affect on the game at all, I can use it and not be thrown out of the game or whatever. Meanwhile, while I can’t use that stuff so I can pitch for my team in the postseason, you have guys using sticky stuff every single time they pitch, increasing their spin rate by 200–300 RPM and having a massive competitive advantage.”
Q: What do you think the police should do about burglary?
Burglar: Allow it
Quote:
Q: What would you suggest MLB do about this?
Bauer: “Allow it. I don’t see that there’s a way to enforce it, because you can’t go check a pitcher every single inning, every single pitch, and that’s currently how it is. You can get thrown out of a game and suspended for it if an umpire comes out and checks and finds out. But, it doesn’t happen. So, pick a substance that’s sticky, that gives you all the performance benefits, and just put it on the back of the mound. That way, if you want to use it you can and everybody knows it’s being used. And, if you want to use other substances and skirt the rule, whatever. Have a certain amount of outlawed substances — vaseline or whatever. But, if you want to use sticky stuff, it’s right there on the mound. Put your fingers on it and throw.
“A lot of hitters are fine with it, because like it’s been said, they don’t want projectiles flying at 100 mph at their head and the pitcher has no clue where it’s going. And over 69-percent of the league probably uses it anyway, so there’s not really a whole lot of difference. But, just make it legal, so that way it’s an even playing field. And that way, when I want to use surgical-grade stuff on my stitches on the backside of a pinky finger that’s never going to touch the ball and has no affect on the game at all, I can use it and not be thrown out of the game or whatever. Meanwhile, while I can’t use that stuff so I can pitch for my team in the postseason, you have guys using sticky stuff every single time they pitch, increasing their spin rate by 200–300 RPM and having a massive competitive advantage.”
Q: What do you think the police should do about burglary?
Burglar: Allow it
Hey, that's happening too lol
I don't expect him to wear a NYM uniform again. No point.
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the job the writers in the scouting community do. I am not in any way trying to minimize far more informed opinions than my own.
apart from that I think it's fair to acknowledge that nobody is clairvoyant and nobody knows how these guys will progress (especially true the younger the players are and even moreso after last year's unique interuption). In 2013 nobody would believe JDG would be pumping out 102 mph fastballs regularly. Multiple whose opinions we all respect said Alonso was unplayable in the field. Even this past offseason how many crapped on Taijuan Walker as a guy trading off his former reputation?
i've seen enough players defy odds to believe in the "dont quit on talent" axiom where talent is visible - and to put a bow on my entire diatribe re Vientos the in game power and XBH rate he's showing despite a big jump in comp level is most certainly a talent I would not quit on.
Eric,
Of course this is somewhat true but in that situation we might as well say "any prospect with a modicum of talent could end up with a surprising outcome". Mike Trout had 24 people go before him he's a top 10 player ever. Junior Santos (random name pull) could come in next year touching 99 and shock everybody but quite frankly what's the point of these threads? To just look at statlines and say "all of these guys are professionals, they could defy the odds" and leave it there? Of course people can choose to do that, doesn't seem like much "fun" to me.
No different than "well the Giants (I'm using a random player) Elerson Smith round 4 and I'm shocking everybody and becoming Junior Seau. There will be guys like that (Jacob DeGrom) but you look for trends and high strike out, lowish walk, limited defensive players are a low probability to shock. His floor is a non-MLB player, a guy like PCA (unless his shoulder issue completely fucked him) will see the big leagues.
of course - but it all depends on what the modicum of talent is. For a hitter exit velocity and XBH rates are among the most important carrying tools (i'd personally put pure contact ability above that but I think that's probably against the grain of current conventional/analytical wisdom).
Vientos is almost quite literally the equivalent of a pitcher consistently hitting upper 90's in games on the gun with decent control and who has flashed plus secondary pitches but not yet developed them consistently.
Betances in to pitch
Geez, in all the Betances trainwreck updates, I missed this one. Double and a single for Ramirez, after a HR last night. Very promising, and finally something to look forward to with St. Lucie.
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Ramirez adds a double.
Betances in to pitch
Geez, in all the Betances trainwreck updates, I missed this one. Double and a single for Ramirez, after a HR last night. Very promising, and finally something to look forward to with St. Lucie.
Betances actually got tagged with a 5th run but I lost interest lol
These same criticisms were leveled at Dom Smith through most of his minor league career. 1B only and wasn't going to produce enough for 1b. Turns out he may be productive enough to make both criticisms incorrect.
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In comment 15287695 DanMetroMan said:
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Ramirez adds a double.
Betances in to pitch
Geez, in all the Betances trainwreck updates, I missed this one. Double and a single for Ramirez, after a HR last night. Very promising, and finally something to look forward to with St. Lucie.
Betances actually got tagged with a 5th run but I lost interest lol
lol. Always love your updates and contributions on everything Mets, but I admittedly lost interest after about 2-3 Betances updates.