Was he passed his strength test the next morning (which is positive) and he says he feels like this is not major (which is positive), however I read a tweet saying the soreness he feels is near the back of his shoulder. Which is alarming. That rotator cuff. Even if the results are negative, he needs to sit. Can’t mess around with that.
I’ve been checking for updates my self, nothing solid yet.
I hope he gets better right after these next 4 games vs. the Nats.
Healthy or not he wasn’t pitching in DC this weekend. Which sucks cause I’m in the area and was hoping to catch him in person! Good for the nats though. Ha
I hope he gets better right after these next 4 games vs. the Nats.
Healthy or not he wasn’t pitching in DC this weekend. Which sucks cause I’m in the area and was hoping to catch him in person! Good for the nats though. Ha
Jon Heyman
@JonHeyman
· 1m
deGrom (shoulder) saw one doctor today, who saw no issues. Mets are sending the NL MVP favorite for a second opinion as they understand the significance. But so far it’s a big relief!
If the second doctor sees nothing wrong too and he feels fine
I am no doctor but one thing off with these guys leads to a cascade of related issues. Let any inflammation subside and let him do a couple bps to ensure his mechanics are where he wants them before risking him. We can tread water for a couple weeks until all star break. By which point hopefully everything will have subsided. We however cannot expect to win this division or better if he goes out and tears his lat or rotator cuff.
and I'm the decider on this (ie, Sandy or Rojas), I sit Jake for a couple runs through the rotation. Have him stretch and do his usual side work. Just not make the starts. 9-10-11 days you re-insert him.
Sometimes soreness just could be soreness. Might need a little rest.
It's mid-June, they have built up a ton of early equity and sit very nicely where they're at NOW, but that can change quickly. Sit deGrom 2 weeks? Does he start again before all-star game?
They were going to need some starts even with a healthy deGrom so do you move Gsellman into the rotation? What about Castro?
the Mets doctors I'd say you follow the advice of the trained professionals.
So, I'm glad he's getting a second opinion.
I don't blindly support the "rest him for 2 weeks" knee jerk response either because sometimes rest isn't going to do a thing and the people who suggest to "rest him for 2 weeks" have no idea if rest will help or why 2 weeks.
I would do what the best doctor recommends. Not what the uneducated fan thinks - the best medical advice isn't always you think common sense may dictate.
the Mets doctors I'd say you follow the advice of the trained professionals.
So, I'm glad he's getting a second opinion.
I don't blindly support the "rest him for 2 weeks" knee jerk response either because sometimes rest isn't going to do a thing and the people who suggest to "rest him for 2 weeks" have no idea if rest will help or why 2 weeks.
I would do what the best doctor recommends. Not what the uneducated fan thinks - the best medical advice isn't always you think common sense may dictate.
Look at Nimmo. Mets diagnosed him with a strain and then when it did not get better, they diagnosed him with nerve damage.
Neither diagnosis was correct and he had to go to
Outside doctors to find out he had small tears in his finger ligaments
Nimmo is a good example why I don't trust the Mets doctors, and I'm glad he's getting a second opinion.
I also don't trust the untrained fans on here who simply say "rest him for two weeks".
I remember Odell Beckham's rookie year after he missed the first few games a lot of fans said "sit him out the year" - why? no medical reason to, but fans like to be experts in areas they are not experts.
PJ you consistently misunderstand the rest argument
I don't blindly support the "rest him for 2 weeks" knee jerk response either because sometimes rest isn't going to do a thing and the people who suggest to "rest him for 2 weeks" have no idea if rest will help or why 2 weeks.
it is not that rest will automatically help. For most diagnosis it's good but that's not the key point here (and most others with pitchers especially).
the key point is the risk elimination and saved wear and tear from not performing one of the most high risk, strenuous, and injury producing athletic activities during those 2 weeks. that is an undeniable positive.
if JDG were a free climber taking 2 weeks off may or may not cure whatever is ailing him but you don't need an MD to realize it would undeniably eliminate the risk of him falling off a mountain.
Nimmo is a good example why I don't trust the Mets doctors, and I'm glad he's getting a second opinion.
I also don't trust the untrained fans on here who simply say "rest him for two weeks".
I remember Odell Beckham's rookie year after he missed the first few games a lot of fans said "sit him out the year" - why? no medical reason to, but fans like to be experts in areas they are not experts.
And many also said when he first tweaked his hamstring in OTAs he should rest and not try to push through since soft tissue injuries notoriously linger and are easy to have setbacks. Had they done that and he not suffered a setback in the first place he'd have played even more games.
the muscle, not resting it, would be better for him long-term.
And resting only serves to delay the injury because he's not strengthening the muscles.
your logic is not logic, it's an uneducated opinion.
I think you need to do both. You're right, strengthening the muscles around the cuff is almost certainly going to be part of his recovery, but he'll need some time to do that. I could see them skipping a start to give Jake time to adequately strengthen the back shoulder area.
the muscle, not resting it, would be better for him long-term.
And resting only serves to delay the injury because he's not strengthening the muscles.
your logic is not logic, it's an uneducated opinion.
physical therapy, rehab, flexibility work, and sport specific work outs are all things that strengthen muscles. Strenuous exertion (including overly challenging workouts outside of games) breaks muscle down and generally leads to increased injury risk and declining performance. Pitchers aren't attempting 1 rep maxes in between starts. And that's not my uneducated opinion, it's the studied opinion and industry consensus of the actual trainers employed by pro teams like Eric Cressey (some of whom I've crossed paths with). Syndergaard learned that lesson the hard way a few years ago if you recall when he abandoned his offseason crossfit routines in favor of more low intensity training. It's also an area the Mets org as a whole has not been looked at favorably even aside from the Barwis stuff.
the muscle, not resting it, would be better for him long-term.
And resting only serves to delay the injury because he's not strengthening the muscles.
your logic is not logic, it's an uneducated opinion.
I think you need to do both. You're right, strengthening the muscles around the cuff is almost certainly going to be part of his recovery, but he'll need some time to do that. I could see them skipping a start to give Jake time to adequately strengthen the back shoulder area.
I don't know how to heal/recover is my point.
The medical experts do.
I don't trust the Mets doctors, but I do think the advice should come from medical experts who only have Jake's well being for consideration, nothing else.
if it's rest they'll say so, but if they feel like no, rest serves no purpose here - it's not dead arm, or fatigue or whatever other ailment/injury/situation comes along where rest is a recommendation then holy shit don't say "Jake should sit out two weeks"
the muscle, not resting it, would be better for him long-term.
And resting only serves to delay the injury because he's not strengthening the muscles.
your logic is not logic, it's an uneducated opinion.
I think you need to do both. You're right, strengthening the muscles around the cuff is almost certainly going to be part of his recovery, but he'll need some time to do that. I could see them skipping a start to give Jake time to adequately strengthen the back shoulder area.
I don't know how to heal/recover is my point.
The medical experts do.
I don't trust the Mets doctors, but I do think the advice should come from medical experts who only have Jake's well being for consideration, nothing else.
if it's rest they'll say so, but if they feel like no, rest serves no purpose here - it's not dead arm, or fatigue or whatever other ailment/injury/situation comes along where rest is a recommendation then holy shit don't say "Jake should sit out two weeks"
lol, so tiring.
you do realize there's a difference between medical doctors and sports performance science right? If you wanted to say shave 3 minutes off your running pace, would you call your primary care physician or a running coach?
with me suggesting I'm not interested fan treatment recommendations (such as "even if he's fine, I'd rest him two weeks")
My point is the people who get paid to make those recommendations for a living are the ones who I am interested in hearing from (and not the Mets doctors since they have a poor track record).
Requires some modicum of rest. As you alluded too yes you also want to strengthen the muscles around that but you want to do that in a scenario where you aren’t exerting yourself at a maximum effort with game results on the line. The reality is there are competing interests for all of these athletes, whether it be from the team or the individual. You hope that someone can talk some sanity into this situation and play it safe given the value of Jake to the organization.
your going to have to manage pitchers this entire year
it's that and also the irregular schedules. Last year there were a lot of injuries because of the interrupted spring training and the shotgun restart. That's the real reason why Stroman ended up opting out. But that likely also had an impact on the rhythm of pitchers last year who managed to stay healthy last year that may or may not have been cured by a "normal offseason".
pro athletes have definitely been impacted by the abnormal schedules over the past 16 months - look no further than the number of injured NBA players this postseason.
The Mets doctors under the Wilpon Regime could not be trusted....
Requires some modicum of rest. As you alluded too yes you also want to strengthen the muscles around that but you want to do that in a scenario where you aren’t exerting yourself at a maximum effort with game results on the line. The reality is there are competing interests for all of these athletes, whether it be from the team or the individual. You hope that someone can talk some sanity into this situation and play it safe given the value of Jake to the organization.
I guess I'm the naive one.
Because I don't think there is anyone involved here like your old school football coaches saying just rub some dirt on it, maybe we can squeeze another start out of Jake before ruining his career.
I feel like everyone involved has Jake's long term and short-term interests as their primary motivation.
I don't think anyone is thinking what is the quickest way to get Jake back unconditionally, but more what is the quickest way to get Jake back but healthy and not at risk of re-injury.
with me suggesting I'm not interested fan treatment recommendations (such as "even if he's fine, I'd rest him two weeks")
My point is the people who get paid to make those recommendations for a living are the ones who I am interested in hearing from (and not the Mets doctors since they have a poor track record).
look, you keep beating the drum on this contrarian take that "fans suggesting rest are stoopid" and cloaking it in trust "those who get paid to make those recommendations" - except you then immediately contradict that by saying "not the mets doctors since they have a poor track record"...so who are you interested in hearing from? Surgeons from the HSS? Ok I'm with you if we are talking about MRI results. But what about decisions related to sports performance training? You trusting the Met trainers who designed Carlos Carrasco's rehab or Jed Lowrie's? If I was Cohen I wouldn't be and that would have been one of the first areas where I injected a few $m.
at the exact moment when that injury happened when he was running from first to second, I remember ZG quickly posted something to the effect of "that looked like a hammy". Like ZG I think everyone who has watched any sport thought the same exact thing. And yet the Mets put out the BS "body cramps" thing and let him return to playing too quickly, he reinjured himself more severely, and he's on the shelf with the injury it looked like to everyone in the first place.
I don't think the Mets trainers are so incompetent that they didn't know it was a hamstring injury when it happened. I think they dont have nearly a conservative enough approach protecting the players from their own competitive desire to rub some dirt on it and come back too soon. Carrasco did the exact same thing and resumed his rehab a lot quicker than most of the actual sports injury dr's said he should (like Chao). It is an institutional problem that Cohen needs to solve.
at the exact moment when that injury happened when he was running from first to second, I remember ZG quickly posted something to the effect of "that looked like a hammy". Like ZG I think everyone who has watched any sport thought the same exact thing. And yet the Mets put out the BS "body cramps" thing and let him return to playing too quickly, he reinjured himself more severely, and he's on the shelf with the injury it looked like to everyone in the first place.
I don't think the Mets trainers are so incompetent that they didn't know it was a hamstring injury when it happened. I think they dont have nearly a conservative enough approach protecting the players from their own competitive desire to rub some dirt on it and come back too soon. Carrasco did the exact same thing and resumed his rehab a lot quicker than most of the actual sports injury dr's said he should (like Chao). It is an institutional problem that Cohen needs to solve.
With large muscle injuries a large portion of the decision-making is with the athlete. In many cases, it's the athlete who is their own worst enemy... rushing back before they are able to sustain the rigors of their sport. I' don't know if that's the case here; I won't immediately gravitate to an organization out of control.
your going to have to manage pitchers this entire year
I think you are really onto something here. I won't be surprised if we see a LOT of this later this summer. Pitchers everywhere are going to hit the wall in August.
RE: Apparently Mets might tell him not to swing the bat
I would skip him one start, perhaps an extra two or three days on top...with just light physical and stretch training latter part of this week...then let him get on his regular throwing regimen and get him ready for Philly at the end of the month. Four big games against Philly. That's if no damage and everything feels good all the way.
I’ve been checking for updates my self, nothing solid yet.
Healthy or not he wasn’t pitching in DC this weekend. Which sucks cause I’m in the area and was hoping to catch him in person! Good for the nats though. Ha
Quote:
I hope he gets better right after these next 4 games vs. the Nats.
Healthy or not he wasn’t pitching in DC this weekend. Which sucks cause I’m in the area and was hoping to catch him in person! Good for the nats though. Ha
Nats need all the help they can get these days.
@JonHeyman
· 1m
deGrom (shoulder) saw one doctor today, who saw no issues. Mets are sending the NL MVP favorite for a second opinion as they understand the significance. But so far it’s a big relief!
That's one question I'm glad is way above my pay grade.
Great news so far on the initial clearance.
I'd go with the docs recommendation.
Sometimes soreness just could be soreness. Might need a little rest.
In other words, this is part of pitching for guys his age
It's mid-June, they have built up a ton of early equity and sit very nicely where they're at NOW, but that can change quickly. Sit deGrom 2 weeks? Does he start again before all-star game?
They were going to need some starts even with a healthy deGrom so do you move Gsellman into the rotation? What about Castro?
So, I'm glad he's getting a second opinion.
I don't blindly support the "rest him for 2 weeks" knee jerk response either because sometimes rest isn't going to do a thing and the people who suggest to "rest him for 2 weeks" have no idea if rest will help or why 2 weeks.
I would do what the best doctor recommends. Not what the uneducated fan thinks - the best medical advice isn't always you think common sense may dictate.
Link - ( New Window )
So, I'm glad he's getting a second opinion.
I don't blindly support the "rest him for 2 weeks" knee jerk response either because sometimes rest isn't going to do a thing and the people who suggest to "rest him for 2 weeks" have no idea if rest will help or why 2 weeks.
I would do what the best doctor recommends. Not what the uneducated fan thinks - the best medical advice isn't always you think common sense may dictate.
Look at Nimmo. Mets diagnosed him with a strain and then when it did not get better, they diagnosed him with nerve damage.
Neither diagnosis was correct and he had to go to
Outside doctors to find out he had small tears in his finger ligaments
I’m glad Hake is seeking another opinion.
I also don't trust the untrained fans on here who simply say "rest him for two weeks".
I remember Odell Beckham's rookie year after he missed the first few games a lot of fans said "sit him out the year" - why? no medical reason to, but fans like to be experts in areas they are not experts.
I don't blindly support the "rest him for 2 weeks" knee jerk response either because sometimes rest isn't going to do a thing and the people who suggest to "rest him for 2 weeks" have no idea if rest will help or why 2 weeks.
it is not that rest will automatically help. For most diagnosis it's good but that's not the key point here (and most others with pitchers especially).
the key point is the risk elimination and saved wear and tear from not performing one of the most high risk, strenuous, and injury producing athletic activities during those 2 weeks. that is an undeniable positive.
if JDG were a free climber taking 2 weeks off may or may not cure whatever is ailing him but you don't need an MD to realize it would undeniably eliminate the risk of him falling off a mountain.
·
3m
As of now, the Mets do not plan to place Jacob deGrom on the IL:
"We're taking it day-by-day"
@DeeshaThosar
Jacob deGrom’s MRI came back clean on his right shoulder soreness. Luis Rojas says Mets think he can avoid the injury list.
He’s still considered day-to-day, but he played catch today and will go through his usual in-between-starts routine.
And resting only serves to delay the injury because he's not strengthening the muscles.
your logic is not logic, it's an uneducated opinion.
I also don't trust the untrained fans on here who simply say "rest him for two weeks".
I remember Odell Beckham's rookie year after he missed the first few games a lot of fans said "sit him out the year" - why? no medical reason to, but fans like to be experts in areas they are not experts.
And many also said when he first tweaked his hamstring in OTAs he should rest and not try to push through since soft tissue injuries notoriously linger and are easy to have setbacks. Had they done that and he not suffered a setback in the first place he'd have played even more games.
This is also exactly what happened with Carrasco too. Athletes needing to be protecting from themselves from attempting to come back from injuries too soon because they are overly competitive is a very well studied topic.
Giants rookie Odell Beckham originally injured his hamstring during OTAs and aggravated it last Tuesday during the team's first training camp workout. - ( New Window )
And resting only serves to delay the injury because he's not strengthening the muscles.
your logic is not logic, it's an uneducated opinion.
I think you need to do both. You're right, strengthening the muscles around the cuff is almost certainly going to be part of his recovery, but he'll need some time to do that. I could see them skipping a start to give Jake time to adequately strengthen the back shoulder area.
And resting only serves to delay the injury because he's not strengthening the muscles.
your logic is not logic, it's an uneducated opinion.
physical therapy, rehab, flexibility work, and sport specific work outs are all things that strengthen muscles. Strenuous exertion (including overly challenging workouts outside of games) breaks muscle down and generally leads to increased injury risk and declining performance. Pitchers aren't attempting 1 rep maxes in between starts. And that's not my uneducated opinion, it's the studied opinion and industry consensus of the actual trainers employed by pro teams like Eric Cressey (some of whom I've crossed paths with). Syndergaard learned that lesson the hard way a few years ago if you recall when he abandoned his offseason crossfit routines in favor of more low intensity training. It's also an area the Mets org as a whole has not been looked at favorably even aside from the Barwis stuff.
Quote:
the muscle, not resting it, would be better for him long-term.
And resting only serves to delay the injury because he's not strengthening the muscles.
your logic is not logic, it's an uneducated opinion.
I think you need to do both. You're right, strengthening the muscles around the cuff is almost certainly going to be part of his recovery, but he'll need some time to do that. I could see them skipping a start to give Jake time to adequately strengthen the back shoulder area.
I don't know how to heal/recover is my point.
The medical experts do.
I don't trust the Mets doctors, but I do think the advice should come from medical experts who only have Jake's well being for consideration, nothing else.
if it's rest they'll say so, but if they feel like no, rest serves no purpose here - it's not dead arm, or fatigue or whatever other ailment/injury/situation comes along where rest is a recommendation then holy shit don't say "Jake should sit out two weeks"
lol, so tiring.
Quote:
In comment 15288645 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
the muscle, not resting it, would be better for him long-term.
And resting only serves to delay the injury because he's not strengthening the muscles.
your logic is not logic, it's an uneducated opinion.
I think you need to do both. You're right, strengthening the muscles around the cuff is almost certainly going to be part of his recovery, but he'll need some time to do that. I could see them skipping a start to give Jake time to adequately strengthen the back shoulder area.
I don't know how to heal/recover is my point.
The medical experts do.
I don't trust the Mets doctors, but I do think the advice should come from medical experts who only have Jake's well being for consideration, nothing else.
if it's rest they'll say so, but if they feel like no, rest serves no purpose here - it's not dead arm, or fatigue or whatever other ailment/injury/situation comes along where rest is a recommendation then holy shit don't say "Jake should sit out two weeks"
lol, so tiring.
you do realize there's a difference between medical doctors and sports performance science right? If you wanted to say shave 3 minutes off your running pace, would you call your primary care physician or a running coach?
My point is the people who get paid to make those recommendations for a living are the ones who I am interested in hearing from (and not the Mets doctors since they have a poor track record).
it's that and also the irregular schedules. Last year there were a lot of injuries because of the interrupted spring training and the shotgun restart. That's the real reason why Stroman ended up opting out. But that likely also had an impact on the rhythm of pitchers last year who managed to stay healthy last year that may or may not have been cured by a "normal offseason".
pro athletes have definitely been impacted by the abnormal schedules over the past 16 months - look no further than the number of injured NBA players this postseason.
Nimmo had possible nerve damage that turned into a torn ligament. Is that a simple or common misdiagnosis?
Did they change team doctors from Wilpon to Cohen?
I guess I'm the naive one.
Because I don't think there is anyone involved here like your old school football coaches saying just rub some dirt on it, maybe we can squeeze another start out of Jake before ruining his career.
I feel like everyone involved has Jake's long term and short-term interests as their primary motivation.
I don't think anyone is thinking what is the quickest way to get Jake back unconditionally, but more what is the quickest way to get Jake back but healthy and not at risk of re-injury.
My point is the people who get paid to make those recommendations for a living are the ones who I am interested in hearing from (and not the Mets doctors since they have a poor track record).
look, you keep beating the drum on this contrarian take that "fans suggesting rest are stoopid" and cloaking it in trust "those who get paid to make those recommendations" - except you then immediately contradict that by saying "not the mets doctors since they have a poor track record"...so who are you interested in hearing from? Surgeons from the HSS? Ok I'm with you if we are talking about MRI results. But what about decisions related to sports performance training? You trusting the Met trainers who designed Carlos Carrasco's rehab or Jed Lowrie's? If I was Cohen I wouldn't be and that would have been one of the first areas where I injected a few $m.
I don't think the Mets trainers are so incompetent that they didn't know it was a hamstring injury when it happened. I think they dont have nearly a conservative enough approach protecting the players from their own competitive desire to rub some dirt on it and come back too soon. Carrasco did the exact same thing and resumed his rehab a lot quicker than most of the actual sports injury dr's said he should (like Chao). It is an institutional problem that Cohen needs to solve.
I don't think the Mets trainers are so incompetent that they didn't know it was a hamstring injury when it happened. I think they dont have nearly a conservative enough approach protecting the players from their own competitive desire to rub some dirt on it and come back too soon. Carrasco did the exact same thing and resumed his rehab a lot quicker than most of the actual sports injury dr's said he should (like Chao). It is an institutional problem that Cohen needs to solve.
With large muscle injuries a large portion of the decision-making is with the athlete. In many cases, it's the athlete who is their own worst enemy... rushing back before they are able to sustain the rigors of their sport. I' don't know if that's the case here; I won't immediately gravitate to an organization out of control.
I think you are really onto something here. I won't be surprised if we see a LOT of this later this summer. Pitchers everywhere are going to hit the wall in August.
Fat chance. If there's ducks on the pond he's going to be a hitter no matter what they say!