I'm quite embarrassed to post this, but after seeing BestFeature's thread I figured I would give it a shot and see what comes of it. I'm happy to discuss the topic in detail with anyone and everyone via email.
Long story short, I'm looking for a corporate/transactional, in-house or compliance associate position here in NYC (Manhattan would be ideal) or remotely. The problem is that the bulk of my post-graduate experience (I graduated in 2017) has been in litigation, but to be perfectly frank, I really don't enjoy it and it was never my intention to be a litigator. I would really like to focus my career in corporate/transactional law and would even consider an entry-level/junior position if it was the right opportunity. Right now, I'm doing contract/compliance work on a per-project basis. The pay is okay, but it's rather inconsistent and unstable and it offers no benefits, so I'm looking for something full-time and long-term.
I would be truly grateful for any and all leads and assistance. Thanks in advance!
You mentioned you are doing contract work. I don't know if they have contract work available for the corporate transactional stuff you are looking for, but that would obviously be a good way to get some experience
They do and often I've had to teach myself how to draft certain types of contracts and agreements, but the pay is inconsistent and there are no benefits. It's better than nothing, but I really need a FT, stable position.
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You mentioned you are doing contract work. I don't know if they have contract work available for the corporate transactional stuff you are looking for, but that would obviously be a good way to get some experience
They do and often I've had to teach myself how to draft certain types of contracts and agreements, but the pay is inconsistent and there are no benefits. It's better than nothing, but I really need a FT, stable position.
Understood, but you are doing the right thing by getting at least contract experience in the area that you are looking at. You can at least have the experience on your resume, and sometimes I've heard of contract work leading to permanent positions. Good luck with everything.
Feel free to email me imthatguybbi@gmail and I'll see what I can do
In house in life sciences as well so take this for what it’s fourth, going in house is tough and litigation really isn’t the general skill set. If you can find yourself in employment litigation that would help, but for the most party you need to be transactional or in my industry regulatory (tuna can probably attest there). If it’s a public ally traded company there are always opening for securities attorneys as well.
But then after I graduated law school and some of my classmates got jobs at banking and financial institutions like JP Morgan, HSBC, Morgan Stanley, etc., I became quite interested. They would talk about how much they loved it, how they were compensated well (with great benefits) and reasonable hours...It sounded so appealing that I started doing some research into compliance roles and even attended a few events at the City Bar to find out more. And now? Even though I haven't had a FT role in compliance, I could easily see myself carving out a career in it.
BTW, thanks for the response, ImThatGuy. I emailed you.
2. The IP thing is very true. I wasn't 100% committed to going to law school after college (I created a thread about it back in 2013. I still have the BBI Law School Advice thread saved. I can copy and paste it here in case anyone is interested. A lot of people gave great advice). But here's the funny thing about IP: in order to practice traditional IP (notably patents), you have to have an undergraduate degree in a field of science. I was always more of a humanities/social studies type of person (English and History) and always assumed that majoring in a science was for the future scientists and pre-med students of the world. Had I known what IP TRULY entailed, I would've majored in biology. No question.
As I mentioned, I was an IP concentration in law school and I do love IP and sports and entertainment law (in an ideal world, that's what I would be doing), but as you said BHill, copyright and trademark are more niche and specialized. More often than not they fall under the umbrella of general IP, which includes the practice of patent law, which are practiced by the aforementioned science majors, so those science majors will not only practice patent law, but copyright and trademark as well. Not always, but many times.
But it would only be a stepping stone. Never stick at the big 4 too long. They run you ragged. I've poached some of their staff since going to the private sector.
But it would only be a stepping stone. Never stick at the big 4 too long. They run you ragged. I've poached some of their staff since going to the private sector.
Unfortunately, no. I have no experience at all in tax law. Never even took a class in tax law in law school. I mentioned it earlier, but it never appealed to me and I heard horror stories about tax law despite it being extremely lucrative.
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Do you do anything around Taxes or Accounting in general? I haven't read the whole thread. We used to hire a lot of lawyers at EY when I was there. The big 4 definitely hires tax lawyers.
But it would only be a stepping stone. Never stick at the big 4 too long. They run you ragged. I've poached some of their staff since going to the private sector.
Unfortunately, no. I have no experience at all in tax law. Never even took a class in tax law in law school. I mentioned it earlier, but it never appealed to me and I heard horror stories about tax law despite it being extremely lucrative.
Gotcha. It's definitely a tough field and can be extremely time consuming.
They also use lawyers on their consulting/adviosry side. I believe they focus more on corporate policies and litigation. Might not hurt to check out the big 4 sites.
Well, best of luck to you in your search.
I support your decision not to go into an area (tax law) that does not interest you.
I think you already have enough education. First find a job you like. Then get any supplemental training/education.
Place is called Davis Polk. Check out their career section and let me know if anything looks intriguing to you.
Place is called Davis Polk. Check out their career section and let me know if anything looks intriguing to you.
That is a great prestigious firm and congrats to your niece
Anakin,
What you are going through happens to approx 80% of lawyers within their first 5 years. You are labeled as a litigator because you are one….firms cannot bill you out as a 5th year corporate attorney Bc you have no experience and they won’t understand hire you as a first year corporate associate (and salary) as history has shown it doesn’t work in the firm business model and also creates bitterness.
You need to find your next path towards what you want to be and possibly take intermediate steps to get there. A law degree is a great degree to have as it shows analytical thinking and problem solving. Stay patient and focused on the long game.
Place is called Davis Polk. Check out their career section and let me know if anything looks intriguing to you.
Thanks for the advice. As mentioned above, Davis Polk is a fantastic, prestigious firm and you should be very proud of your niece. If I had to venture a guess, your niece attended a top-20, if not top-10 law school and did extremely well there. Unfortunately, the Davis Polks of the world will not even look at alumni from my school unless they were truly established and at the top of their profession. For a somewhat new attorney like me, there's a 99% chance they wouldn't even consider me given where I went to law school.
But I appreciate the offer.
Just sent it today from my aol account
if you have any questions about the company or the role (I'm not in legal but I work with them all the time) - just reply back pjcas18@aol.com
Connections are much more important than where you went to school. And he's literally offering you one.
Also I found a bunch of people who went to your law school at Davis Polk in <3 minutes.
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the perks from that place i heard are awesome and seems very down to earth.
Place is called Davis Polk. Check out their career section and let me know if anything looks intriguing to you.
That is a great prestigious firm and congrats to your niece
Anakin,
What you are going through happens to approx 80% of lawyers within their first 5 years. You are labeled as a litigator because you are one….firms cannot bill you out as a 5th year corporate attorney Bc you have no experience and they won’t understand hire you as a first year corporate associate (and salary) as history has shown it doesn’t work in the firm business model and also creates bitterness.
You need to find your next path towards what you want to be and possibly take intermediate steps to get there. A law degree is a great degree to have as it shows analytical thinking and problem solving. Stay patient and focused on the long game.
Appreciate the advice and yeah, it sucks to be labeled a litigator so early in my career. It's why I'm okay with essentially starting from scratch and taking an entry-level or junior position.
People actually like helping others - not me, but other people - use that to your advantage and figure out if you can help them too.
Connections are much more important than where you went to school. And he's literally offering you one.
Also I found a bunch of people who went to your law school at Davis Polk in <3 minutes.
It's worth a shot, but I just know BigLaw tend to go for attorneys who went to Top-20 law schools. It's an antiquated way of doing things, but that's the reality.
But I would appreciate the help, GMan4Life
I support your decision not to go into an area (tax law) that does not interest you.
I think you already have enough education. First find a job you like. Then get any supplemental training/education.
Thanks, Marty. I still remember one of the sage advice you gave me: the only Latin I needed to know was subpoena duces tecum, res judicata and res ipsa... Haha
What about the attorney from your floor? Haha, now THAT was an experience.
Connections are much more important than where you went to school. And he's literally offering you one.
Also I found a bunch of people who went to your law school at Davis Polk in <3 minutes.
I dealt with what Anak is going through now and it just zaps your confidence. I went to a good school but otherwise my resume was broken and last time I was without a job for 6 months and got lucky that my current role fell in my lap. But I had four companies I interviewed with in those 6 months and two of them I got through connections. Anyway, I felt about as low as you can be and my confidence was shot. I applied to a bunch of analyst roles at a company that I worked at pre-MBA that were entirely beneath my background and didn't get one interview. The experience I had makes me empathize with Anak and understand why he's gun shy about even applying to a prestigious law firm. BTW, this experience at this current role has been very good for me and really upped my confidence. I think the same will happen to Anak after his next role.
Anak, I think your experience illustrates a greater point in which strong determinant factors of your career are set earlier than you'd otherwise expect. I recall your posts regarding college (I believe you once considered Rutgers?) and law school and you received a good amount of advice. By my understanding you took that advice to heart, worked your ass off, and earned a law degree from a well-respected school. While impressive, there are annual classes of similarly talented graduates from Top-20 schools. It's a factory.
It's difficult to comprehend that at the beginning of your studies but the reality at the culmination. My hope is that you're not type-caste as a litigator and your persistence, motivation, and people skills can help lift you towards the roles you covet.
Anak, I think your experience illustrates a greater point in which strong determinant factors of your career are set earlier than you'd otherwise expect. I recall your posts regarding college (I believe you once considered Rutgers?) and law school and you received a good amount of advice. By my understanding you took that advice to heart, worked your ass off, and earned a law degree from a well-respected school. While impressive, there are annual classes of similarly talented graduates from Top-20 schools. It's a factory.
It's difficult to comprehend that at the beginning of your studies but the reality at the culmination. My hope is that you're not type-caste as a litigator and your persistence, motivation, and people skills can help lift you towards the roles you covet.
Thanks. Hindsight being 20/20 there are certainly many things that I wish I knew at the time and if I had to do things a bit differently, I would have. I suppose that's part of the human experience, but I'm looking towards the future and all I need is an opportunity to prove myself and take the ball and run with it.
That's the thing. Yeah, it's a bit of a defeatist mindset, but I'm also being realistic.
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it's akin to saying I want to go to Villanova and got waitlisted but but my neighbor went to Harvard and will write a letter of recommendation. That being said, shoot your shot Anak...nothing to lose and you have the right mindset.
That's the thing. Yeah, it's a bit of a defeatist mindset, but I'm also being realistic.
Every pessimist is a realist if you know what I mean.
It's also much less about 'Davis Polk' and more about gaining a potentially useful connection who might know people at other firms.
It's also much less about 'Davis Polk' and more about gaining a potentially useful connection who might know people at other firms.
Sure, and that's what I've been doing. I must've spoken to dozens upon dozens of attorneys the last year or so and I would say I have a pretty solid network of people I know and/or have spoken to. I don't mean to belittle or demean it, but I can't tell you how many people are willing to offer advice and guidance, but when it comes to leads or concrete offers...it's a whole different story. It's always "I'll keep my eye out and my ears open" and much more often than not it doesn't amount to anything.
the way the real estate market is right now I have a buddy who was in private practice and the real estate market is so crazy and lucrative right now it's all he does - he turns down most other work.
and he is making a ton of cash.
He says it's tedious, so not something people dream about in law school, but when he's golfing every Friday or bringing me as a guest to his country club he realized he's a "work to live" person and his line of work afford a nice quality of life and he can live with that.
not every attorney has to be or even wants to be clarence darrow.
the way the real estate market is right now I have a buddy who was in private practice and the real estate market is so crazy and lucrative right now it's all he does - he turns down most other work.
and he is making a ton of cash.
He says it's tedious, so not something people dream about in law school, but when he's golfing every Friday or bringing me as a guest to his country club he realized he's a "work to live" person and his line of work afford a nice quality of life and he can live with that.
not every attorney has to be or even wants to be clarence darrow.
Well thats like being an MLO, your experience is going to vary a ton by location and market outlook. Yeah right now it's hot as shit, but I know a ton of MLOs that make bank when the market is hot and find themselves pretty much out of work when the market slows. And I live in Florida.
Our grads are in the top firms and making noise all over the world dude
Our grads are in the top firms and making noise all over the world dude
Speaking of which, I emailed and messaged her too about 2-3 weeks ago
It's not unheard of, but it's rare. Like I went to Cardozo, which is almost a top-50 law school but is clearly behind the likes of Columbia, NYU and Fordham in the rankings. Unless you were magna/summa cum laude and graduated in the top 10% of your class (I was a solid student, but I didn't achieve those honors), BigLaw will not even sniff in your direction. For the Columbia and NYU students, there's a lot more leeway. So yeah, maybe a Cardozo Order of the Coif member MAY get it over an NYU top 50% of the class alumni, but that's basically it.
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My father was a partner at Willkie Farr and did some of the associate hiring. He told me he regularly hired kids from Fordham or Rutgers over Harvard/Yale if he got a better impression from them in the interview. Of course the law school matters, but it's by no means the only factor.
It's not unheard of, but it's rare. Like I went to Cardozo, which is almost a top-50 law school but is clearly behind the likes of Columbia, NYU and Fordham in the rankings. Unless you were magna/summa cum laude and graduated in the top 10% of your class (I was a solid student, but I didn't achieve those honors), BigLaw will not even sniff in your direction. For the Columbia and NYU students, there's a lot more leeway. So yeah, maybe a Cardozo Order of the Coif member MAY get it over an NYU top 50% of the class alumni, but that's basically it.
How the hell do you expect someone else to take a shot on you when you’re already discounting yourself?
Sometimes you need to fake it until you make it.
You only need 1 opportunity right now. Shoot 500 shots and ht on one and it could change your life.
Change your outlook on the market and just turn over every single stone possible. You're disqualifying yourself from potential opportunities for no reason. Knock that shit off.
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My father was a partner at Willkie Farr and did some of the associate hiring. He told me he regularly hired kids from Fordham or Rutgers over Harvard/Yale if he got a better impression from them in the interview. Of course the law school matters, but it's by no means the only factor.
It's not unheard of, but it's rare. Like I went to Cardozo, which is almost a top-50 law school but is clearly behind the likes of Columbia, NYU and Fordham in the rankings. Unless you were magna/summa cum laude and graduated in the top 10% of your class (I was a solid student, but I didn't achieve those honors), BigLaw will not even sniff in your direction. For the Columbia and NYU students, there's a lot more leeway. So yeah, maybe a Cardozo Order of the Coif member MAY get it over an NYU top 50% of the class alumni, but that's basically it.
you mean you took our school down?
Cardozo was in the top 50 when I went there
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In comment 15289868 jamalduff123 said:
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My father was a partner at Willkie Farr and did some of the associate hiring. He told me he regularly hired kids from Fordham or Rutgers over Harvard/Yale if he got a better impression from them in the interview. Of course the law school matters, but it's by no means the only factor.
It's not unheard of, but it's rare. Like I went to Cardozo, which is almost a top-50 law school but is clearly behind the likes of Columbia, NYU and Fordham in the rankings. Unless you were magna/summa cum laude and graduated in the top 10% of your class (I was a solid student, but I didn't achieve those honors), BigLaw will not even sniff in your direction. For the Columbia and NYU students, there's a lot more leeway. So yeah, maybe a Cardozo Order of the Coif member MAY get it over an NYU top 50% of the class alumni, but that's basically it.
you mean you took our school down?
Cardozo was in the top 50 when I went there
Was it? It legit rose by like 20 while I was there. It went from the 70s to like 52.
You only need 1 opportunity right now. Shoot 500 shots and ht on one and it could change your life.
Change your outlook on the market and just turn over every single stone possible. You're disqualifying yourself from potential opportunities for no reason. Knock that shit off.
It's not that at all. I'm confident in my abilities, but I'm also a realist and this isn't my first rodeo. These managing partners will look at your experience and then where you went to you law school. If either of those things don't line up, they won't even offer you an interview.
You're closing doors when you have nothing to lose. Dont do that. You need to keep swinging no matter what.
Network, network, network. Even if you're not a fit at a particular firm, they may know someone at another firm that can help you.
im a career coach and i have seen this type of behavior all the time. Its as if you have imposter syndrome. "Im not good enough". In whos eyes? there are over 5000 law firms and someone will want to use your talents. The only person stopping them from hiring you, is you!
I had this one client who believed she was stupid. She didnt think for one second she can provide an ounce of knowledge in her place of business. It took a while but she was able to get 2 jobs (2 during the beginning of the height of covid) to work in a completely different field that she did before. That was amazing but she had to get out of her head and apply and try. Whats the worst that can happen? they not hire you? so what. You just get up and move on.
And you dont have to work at Davis Polk. My niece works in the HR area and might know someone but at least you can try. Hell try everywhere. The whole point is lacing up your sneaks and going for it. But it won't happen by closing doors. You have to open it. Only you!
im a career coach and i have seen this type of behavior all the time. Its as if you have imposter syndrome. "Im not good enough". In whos eyes? there are over 5000 law firms and someone will want to use your talents. The only person stopping them from hiring you, is you!
I had this one client who believed she was stupid. She didnt think for one second she can provide an ounce of knowledge in her place of business. It took a while but she was able to get 2 jobs (2 during the beginning of the height of covid) to work in a completely different field that she did before. That was amazing but she had to get out of her head and apply and try. Whats the worst that can happen? they not hire you? so what. You just get up and move on.
And you dont have to work at Davis Polk. My niece works in the HR area and might know someone but at least you can try. Hell try everywhere. The whole point is lacing up your sneaks and going for it. But it won't happen by closing doors. You have to open it. Only you!
I appreciate the advice and yeah, I'd love to talk to her. Thanks so much.
At that point, I felt like I *needed* to make a move, that I never intended to be a litigator, I never saw myself in court, etc. In my field of law, most of the lateral associate opportunties were on the transactional side, and my lack of experience (as compared to my 100%-litigation practice) made me basically unhireable in my 4th, 5th year out. So I can understand where you're coming from.
My story differs from yours even to this point in your career, so I'm not here to tell you to, "stay the course" or, "be patient." What I can say is that the grass isn't always greener at those top firms, and while those 5th-9th year associate salaries/bonuses look very sexy, comparatively few attorneys stick around long enough to reach that level. As you no doubt understand, so many wash out, for various reasons, and most companies (not just law firms) won't "hire down," e.g., bring in a more qualified candidate for an entry level position, even if the candidate is totally willing to do it.
With your background, the best advice I can give would be to look into jobs for litigators at banks. I know of a few lawyers who left big firms to go into corporate risk management roles, where their experience in litigation was desirable. One coworker, in particular, spent about 7 years of practice in a few personal injury/insurance defense mills and left to join a big bank, with significant real estate holdings, in a risk management role. She's risen up the promotion ladder there, with excellent comp and a nice quality of life.
Lastly, as someone who, over time, has embraced the "stigma" of being a litigator (at first, somewhat begrudgingly)... it is a skill that not all lawyers possess, and will ALWAYS be of value. There are plenty of attorneys out there who have deployed that skill into exceptionally lucrative, successful practices.
Anyway, I apologize that I don't have any concrete opportunity or connection to share, but I would urge you to give yourself (and the skill set you've developed after a few years in practice) a little more credit, and recognize that you already have some pretty good arrows in your quiver. In the words of Antrel Rolle, at the end of the day... it's about what YOU do with it.
At that point, I felt like I *needed* to make a move, that I never intended to be a litigator, I never saw myself in court, etc. In my field of law, most of the lateral associate opportunties were on the transactional side, and my lack of experience (as compared to my 100%-litigation practice) made me basically unhireable in my 4th, 5th year out. So I can understand where you're coming from.
My story differs from yours even to this point in your career, so I'm not here to tell you to, "stay the course" or, "be patient." What I can say is that the grass isn't always greener at those top firms, and while those 5th-9th year associate salaries/bonuses look very sexy, comparatively few attorneys stick around long enough to reach that level. As you no doubt understand, so many wash out, for various reasons, and most companies (not just law firms) won't "hire down," e.g., bring in a more qualified candidate for an entry level position, even if the candidate is totally willing to do it.
With your background, the best advice I can give would be to look into jobs for litigators at banks. I know of a few lawyers who left big firms to go into corporate risk management roles, where their experience in litigation was desirable. One coworker, in particular, spent about 7 years of practice in a few personal injury/insurance defense mills and left to join a big bank, with significant real estate holdings, in a risk management role. She's risen up the promotion ladder there, with excellent comp and a nice quality of life.
Lastly, as someone who, over time, has embraced the "stigma" of being a litigator (at first, somewhat begrudgingly)... it is a skill that not all lawyers possess, and will ALWAYS be of value. There are plenty of attorneys out there who have deployed that skill into exceptionally lucrative, successful practices.
Anyway, I apologize that I don't have any concrete opportunity or connection to share, but I would urge you to give yourself (and the skill set you've developed after a few years in practice) a little more credit, and recognize that you already have some pretty good arrows in your quiver. In the words of Antrel Rolle, at the end of the day... it's about what YOU do with it.
Thanks so much for relaying your story. It's nice to know I'm in good company.
For me, money is nice and certainly one of the biggest factors, but I really want to do something that I enjoy, or if not enjoy, tolerate. While I consider myself pretty good at litigation, I just HATE the work that it entails. I find the work mundane and tedious and extraordinarily stressful. I also hate how contentious, dirty and acrimonious it all is and simply put, I just can't and don't want to deal with it anymore.
If you are a good litigator why not get another job doing what you are good at and then keep your eyes and ears open for another position doing something else that you would prefer. Seems like you would have a much better chance of achieving that when successfully employed than if not employed. They would see that you truly have a desire to switch to that type of law instead of them maybe thinking that you are just saying so in order to get a job and then just look to switch back to litigating if the opportunity presented itself.
Just a thought, but at least you would be earning money and building on your resume in the meanwhile. What's there to lose?
I applied to one of their jobs listed on their website. Got an interview, and then the second, third and fourth (this is their process). And I landed in their assurance department three months later.
You always take a chance, you have nothing to lose. If you can get to an interview your fate is in your hands and your resume is moot at that point IMV.
And I made sure to notify everyone, especially the recruiter to let them know I was off the market and working at a big 4.
If you are a good litigator why not get another job doing what you are good at and then keep your eyes and ears open for another position doing something else that you would prefer. Seems like you would have a much better chance of achieving that when successfully employed than if not employed. They would see that you truly have a desire to switch to that type of law instead of them maybe thinking that you are just saying so in order to get a job and then just look to switch back to litigating if the opportunity presented itself.
Just a thought, but at least you would be earning money and building on your resume in the meanwhile. What's there to lose?
Yeah, and that is my last report, but the reason I've been so reluctant about that is that, as I mentioned, I've already been labeled as a litigator and if my next job is in litigation, I'll be pigeonholed.
As noted, these corporate/transactional jobs almost always require someone with experience and I want to get that experience now.
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In comment 15289868 jamalduff123 said:
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My father was a partner at Willkie Farr and did some of the associate hiring. He told me he regularly hired kids from Fordham or Rutgers over Harvard/Yale if he got a better impression from them in the interview. Of course the law school matters, but it's by no means the only factor.
It's not unheard of, but it's rare. Like I went to Cardozo, which is almost a top-50 law school but is clearly behind the likes of Columbia, NYU and Fordham in the rankings. Unless you were magna/summa cum laude and graduated in the top 10% of your class (I was a solid student, but I didn't achieve those honors), BigLaw will not even sniff in your direction. For the Columbia and NYU students, there's a lot more leeway. So yeah, maybe a Cardozo Order of the Coif member MAY get it over an NYU top 50% of the class alumni, but that's basically it.
you mean you took our school down?
Cardozo was in the top 50 when I went there
And it's not even Cardozo itself. I got a great education; met a lot of really good people who I still consider friends; challenged and pushed me...But the career office does NOTHING for you unless you're top-15% of your class. They basically tell you to just network. Wow, thanks. I didn't know I pay $50,000 a year for that sound advice.