I'm quite embarrassed to post this, but after seeing BestFeature's thread I figured I would give it a shot and see what comes of it. I'm happy to discuss the topic in detail with anyone and everyone via email.
Long story short, I'm looking for a corporate/transactional, in-house or compliance associate position here in NYC (Manhattan would be ideal) or remotely. The problem is that the bulk of my post-graduate experience (I graduated in 2017) has been in litigation, but to be perfectly frank, I really don't enjoy it and it was never my intention to be a litigator. I would really like to focus my career in corporate/transactional law and would even consider an entry-level/junior position if it was the right opportunity. Right now, I'm doing contract/compliance work on a per-project basis. The pay is okay, but it's rather inconsistent and unstable and it offers no benefits, so I'm looking for something full-time and long-term.
I would be truly grateful for any and all leads and assistance. Thanks in advance!
It's also much less about 'Davis Polk' and more about gaining a potentially useful connection who might know people at other firms.
It's also much less about 'Davis Polk' and more about gaining a potentially useful connection who might know people at other firms.
Sure, and that's what I've been doing. I must've spoken to dozens upon dozens of attorneys the last year or so and I would say I have a pretty solid network of people I know and/or have spoken to. I don't mean to belittle or demean it, but I can't tell you how many people are willing to offer advice and guidance, but when it comes to leads or concrete offers...it's a whole different story. It's always "I'll keep my eye out and my ears open" and much more often than not it doesn't amount to anything.
the way the real estate market is right now I have a buddy who was in private practice and the real estate market is so crazy and lucrative right now it's all he does - he turns down most other work.
and he is making a ton of cash.
He says it's tedious, so not something people dream about in law school, but when he's golfing every Friday or bringing me as a guest to his country club he realized he's a "work to live" person and his line of work afford a nice quality of life and he can live with that.
not every attorney has to be or even wants to be clarence darrow.
the way the real estate market is right now I have a buddy who was in private practice and the real estate market is so crazy and lucrative right now it's all he does - he turns down most other work.
and he is making a ton of cash.
He says it's tedious, so not something people dream about in law school, but when he's golfing every Friday or bringing me as a guest to his country club he realized he's a "work to live" person and his line of work afford a nice quality of life and he can live with that.
not every attorney has to be or even wants to be clarence darrow.
Well thats like being an MLO, your experience is going to vary a ton by location and market outlook. Yeah right now it's hot as shit, but I know a ton of MLOs that make bank when the market is hot and find themselves pretty much out of work when the market slows. And I live in Florida.
Our grads are in the top firms and making noise all over the world dude
Our grads are in the top firms and making noise all over the world dude
Speaking of which, I emailed and messaged her too about 2-3 weeks ago
It's not unheard of, but it's rare. Like I went to Cardozo, which is almost a top-50 law school but is clearly behind the likes of Columbia, NYU and Fordham in the rankings. Unless you were magna/summa cum laude and graduated in the top 10% of your class (I was a solid student, but I didn't achieve those honors), BigLaw will not even sniff in your direction. For the Columbia and NYU students, there's a lot more leeway. So yeah, maybe a Cardozo Order of the Coif member MAY get it over an NYU top 50% of the class alumni, but that's basically it.
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My father was a partner at Willkie Farr and did some of the associate hiring. He told me he regularly hired kids from Fordham or Rutgers over Harvard/Yale if he got a better impression from them in the interview. Of course the law school matters, but it's by no means the only factor.
It's not unheard of, but it's rare. Like I went to Cardozo, which is almost a top-50 law school but is clearly behind the likes of Columbia, NYU and Fordham in the rankings. Unless you were magna/summa cum laude and graduated in the top 10% of your class (I was a solid student, but I didn't achieve those honors), BigLaw will not even sniff in your direction. For the Columbia and NYU students, there's a lot more leeway. So yeah, maybe a Cardozo Order of the Coif member MAY get it over an NYU top 50% of the class alumni, but that's basically it.
How the hell do you expect someone else to take a shot on you when you’re already discounting yourself?
Sometimes you need to fake it until you make it.
You only need 1 opportunity right now. Shoot 500 shots and ht on one and it could change your life.
Change your outlook on the market and just turn over every single stone possible. You're disqualifying yourself from potential opportunities for no reason. Knock that shit off.
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My father was a partner at Willkie Farr and did some of the associate hiring. He told me he regularly hired kids from Fordham or Rutgers over Harvard/Yale if he got a better impression from them in the interview. Of course the law school matters, but it's by no means the only factor.
It's not unheard of, but it's rare. Like I went to Cardozo, which is almost a top-50 law school but is clearly behind the likes of Columbia, NYU and Fordham in the rankings. Unless you were magna/summa cum laude and graduated in the top 10% of your class (I was a solid student, but I didn't achieve those honors), BigLaw will not even sniff in your direction. For the Columbia and NYU students, there's a lot more leeway. So yeah, maybe a Cardozo Order of the Coif member MAY get it over an NYU top 50% of the class alumni, but that's basically it.
you mean you took our school down?
Cardozo was in the top 50 when I went there
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In comment 15289868 jamalduff123 said:
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My father was a partner at Willkie Farr and did some of the associate hiring. He told me he regularly hired kids from Fordham or Rutgers over Harvard/Yale if he got a better impression from them in the interview. Of course the law school matters, but it's by no means the only factor.
It's not unheard of, but it's rare. Like I went to Cardozo, which is almost a top-50 law school but is clearly behind the likes of Columbia, NYU and Fordham in the rankings. Unless you were magna/summa cum laude and graduated in the top 10% of your class (I was a solid student, but I didn't achieve those honors), BigLaw will not even sniff in your direction. For the Columbia and NYU students, there's a lot more leeway. So yeah, maybe a Cardozo Order of the Coif member MAY get it over an NYU top 50% of the class alumni, but that's basically it.
you mean you took our school down?
Cardozo was in the top 50 when I went there
Was it? It legit rose by like 20 while I was there. It went from the 70s to like 52.
You only need 1 opportunity right now. Shoot 500 shots and ht on one and it could change your life.
Change your outlook on the market and just turn over every single stone possible. You're disqualifying yourself from potential opportunities for no reason. Knock that shit off.
It's not that at all. I'm confident in my abilities, but I'm also a realist and this isn't my first rodeo. These managing partners will look at your experience and then where you went to you law school. If either of those things don't line up, they won't even offer you an interview.
You're closing doors when you have nothing to lose. Dont do that. You need to keep swinging no matter what.
Network, network, network. Even if you're not a fit at a particular firm, they may know someone at another firm that can help you.
im a career coach and i have seen this type of behavior all the time. Its as if you have imposter syndrome. "Im not good enough". In whos eyes? there are over 5000 law firms and someone will want to use your talents. The only person stopping them from hiring you, is you!
I had this one client who believed she was stupid. She didnt think for one second she can provide an ounce of knowledge in her place of business. It took a while but she was able to get 2 jobs (2 during the beginning of the height of covid) to work in a completely different field that she did before. That was amazing but she had to get out of her head and apply and try. Whats the worst that can happen? they not hire you? so what. You just get up and move on.
And you dont have to work at Davis Polk. My niece works in the HR area and might know someone but at least you can try. Hell try everywhere. The whole point is lacing up your sneaks and going for it. But it won't happen by closing doors. You have to open it. Only you!
im a career coach and i have seen this type of behavior all the time. Its as if you have imposter syndrome. "Im not good enough". In whos eyes? there are over 5000 law firms and someone will want to use your talents. The only person stopping them from hiring you, is you!
I had this one client who believed she was stupid. She didnt think for one second she can provide an ounce of knowledge in her place of business. It took a while but she was able to get 2 jobs (2 during the beginning of the height of covid) to work in a completely different field that she did before. That was amazing but she had to get out of her head and apply and try. Whats the worst that can happen? they not hire you? so what. You just get up and move on.
And you dont have to work at Davis Polk. My niece works in the HR area and might know someone but at least you can try. Hell try everywhere. The whole point is lacing up your sneaks and going for it. But it won't happen by closing doors. You have to open it. Only you!
I appreciate the advice and yeah, I'd love to talk to her. Thanks so much.
At that point, I felt like I *needed* to make a move, that I never intended to be a litigator, I never saw myself in court, etc. In my field of law, most of the lateral associate opportunties were on the transactional side, and my lack of experience (as compared to my 100%-litigation practice) made me basically unhireable in my 4th, 5th year out. So I can understand where you're coming from.
My story differs from yours even to this point in your career, so I'm not here to tell you to, "stay the course" or, "be patient." What I can say is that the grass isn't always greener at those top firms, and while those 5th-9th year associate salaries/bonuses look very sexy, comparatively few attorneys stick around long enough to reach that level. As you no doubt understand, so many wash out, for various reasons, and most companies (not just law firms) won't "hire down," e.g., bring in a more qualified candidate for an entry level position, even if the candidate is totally willing to do it.
With your background, the best advice I can give would be to look into jobs for litigators at banks. I know of a few lawyers who left big firms to go into corporate risk management roles, where their experience in litigation was desirable. One coworker, in particular, spent about 7 years of practice in a few personal injury/insurance defense mills and left to join a big bank, with significant real estate holdings, in a risk management role. She's risen up the promotion ladder there, with excellent comp and a nice quality of life.
Lastly, as someone who, over time, has embraced the "stigma" of being a litigator (at first, somewhat begrudgingly)... it is a skill that not all lawyers possess, and will ALWAYS be of value. There are plenty of attorneys out there who have deployed that skill into exceptionally lucrative, successful practices.
Anyway, I apologize that I don't have any concrete opportunity or connection to share, but I would urge you to give yourself (and the skill set you've developed after a few years in practice) a little more credit, and recognize that you already have some pretty good arrows in your quiver. In the words of Antrel Rolle, at the end of the day... it's about what YOU do with it.
At that point, I felt like I *needed* to make a move, that I never intended to be a litigator, I never saw myself in court, etc. In my field of law, most of the lateral associate opportunties were on the transactional side, and my lack of experience (as compared to my 100%-litigation practice) made me basically unhireable in my 4th, 5th year out. So I can understand where you're coming from.
My story differs from yours even to this point in your career, so I'm not here to tell you to, "stay the course" or, "be patient." What I can say is that the grass isn't always greener at those top firms, and while those 5th-9th year associate salaries/bonuses look very sexy, comparatively few attorneys stick around long enough to reach that level. As you no doubt understand, so many wash out, for various reasons, and most companies (not just law firms) won't "hire down," e.g., bring in a more qualified candidate for an entry level position, even if the candidate is totally willing to do it.
With your background, the best advice I can give would be to look into jobs for litigators at banks. I know of a few lawyers who left big firms to go into corporate risk management roles, where their experience in litigation was desirable. One coworker, in particular, spent about 7 years of practice in a few personal injury/insurance defense mills and left to join a big bank, with significant real estate holdings, in a risk management role. She's risen up the promotion ladder there, with excellent comp and a nice quality of life.
Lastly, as someone who, over time, has embraced the "stigma" of being a litigator (at first, somewhat begrudgingly)... it is a skill that not all lawyers possess, and will ALWAYS be of value. There are plenty of attorneys out there who have deployed that skill into exceptionally lucrative, successful practices.
Anyway, I apologize that I don't have any concrete opportunity or connection to share, but I would urge you to give yourself (and the skill set you've developed after a few years in practice) a little more credit, and recognize that you already have some pretty good arrows in your quiver. In the words of Antrel Rolle, at the end of the day... it's about what YOU do with it.
Thanks so much for relaying your story. It's nice to know I'm in good company.
For me, money is nice and certainly one of the biggest factors, but I really want to do something that I enjoy, or if not enjoy, tolerate. While I consider myself pretty good at litigation, I just HATE the work that it entails. I find the work mundane and tedious and extraordinarily stressful. I also hate how contentious, dirty and acrimonious it all is and simply put, I just can't and don't want to deal with it anymore.
If you are a good litigator why not get another job doing what you are good at and then keep your eyes and ears open for another position doing something else that you would prefer. Seems like you would have a much better chance of achieving that when successfully employed than if not employed. They would see that you truly have a desire to switch to that type of law instead of them maybe thinking that you are just saying so in order to get a job and then just look to switch back to litigating if the opportunity presented itself.
Just a thought, but at least you would be earning money and building on your resume in the meanwhile. What's there to lose?
I applied to one of their jobs listed on their website. Got an interview, and then the second, third and fourth (this is their process). And I landed in their assurance department three months later.
You always take a chance, you have nothing to lose. If you can get to an interview your fate is in your hands and your resume is moot at that point IMV.
And I made sure to notify everyone, especially the recruiter to let them know I was off the market and working at a big 4.
If you are a good litigator why not get another job doing what you are good at and then keep your eyes and ears open for another position doing something else that you would prefer. Seems like you would have a much better chance of achieving that when successfully employed than if not employed. They would see that you truly have a desire to switch to that type of law instead of them maybe thinking that you are just saying so in order to get a job and then just look to switch back to litigating if the opportunity presented itself.
Just a thought, but at least you would be earning money and building on your resume in the meanwhile. What's there to lose?
Yeah, and that is my last report, but the reason I've been so reluctant about that is that, as I mentioned, I've already been labeled as a litigator and if my next job is in litigation, I'll be pigeonholed.
As noted, these corporate/transactional jobs almost always require someone with experience and I want to get that experience now.
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In comment 15289868 jamalduff123 said:
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My father was a partner at Willkie Farr and did some of the associate hiring. He told me he regularly hired kids from Fordham or Rutgers over Harvard/Yale if he got a better impression from them in the interview. Of course the law school matters, but it's by no means the only factor.
It's not unheard of, but it's rare. Like I went to Cardozo, which is almost a top-50 law school but is clearly behind the likes of Columbia, NYU and Fordham in the rankings. Unless you were magna/summa cum laude and graduated in the top 10% of your class (I was a solid student, but I didn't achieve those honors), BigLaw will not even sniff in your direction. For the Columbia and NYU students, there's a lot more leeway. So yeah, maybe a Cardozo Order of the Coif member MAY get it over an NYU top 50% of the class alumni, but that's basically it.
you mean you took our school down?
Cardozo was in the top 50 when I went there
And it's not even Cardozo itself. I got a great education; met a lot of really good people who I still consider friends; challenged and pushed me...But the career office does NOTHING for you unless you're top-15% of your class. They basically tell you to just network. Wow, thanks. I didn't know I pay $50,000 a year for that sound advice.