|
|
|
| Quote: |
Williams is No. 7 on a list of the NFL’s best defensive tackles assembled by ESPN. The list was compiled by asking more than 50 coaches, execs, and scouts from across the NFL. The participants gave their best 10 to 15 players at the positing and then ESPN collated the information to formulate their list. Defensive tackle has arguablybeen the Giants strongest position group on the roster, and the deepest. New York just retained Williams by signing him to a three-year, $63 million deal with $45 million guaranteed. Let’s take a look at the rest of the list: Aaron Donald, Rams Chris Jones, Chiefs DeForest Buckner, Colts Cam Heyward, Steelers Fletcher Cox, Eagles Jeffery Simmons, Titans Leonard Williams, Giants Stephon Tuitt, Steelers Vita Vea, Buccaneers Grady Jarrett, Falcons Also receiving votes were Washington’s Jonathan Allen, Jets’ Quinnen Williams, Cardinals’ J.J. Watt, Bears’ Akiem Hicks, Saints’ David Onyemata, Chiefs Jarran Reed, 49ers Arik Armstead, and Ravens’ Calais Cambell. The list is full of talented players, so it’s not a huge surprise that Williams is not ranked higher. He’s coming off a season with the highest amount of pressures and sacks which earned him the contract extension. He aligned all over Patrick Graham’s defense and did an excellent job with just about everything he was asked to do. |
You have no leverage as a GM; but you do have leverage if a player is franchise tagged.
A great move to get a 6th overall pick in his prime for a 3rd round pick.
Boy did that trade work out. We got lucky there.
As it turned out it actually was quite a good thought process. But then there are those who wouldn’t give DG credit for anything no matter.
I have a hard time putting anyone but Aaron Donald and Chris Jones above him.
Quote:
terrible thought process to obtain...
As it turned out it actually was quite a good thought process. But then there are those who wouldn’t give DG credit for anything no matter.
Actually it wasn’t. It was poorly executed from the start. But they got their man in the end despite the delay and eventual higher cost to obtain.
And it’s a not a DG thing. He targeted a good player, he just couldn’t figure out a way to sign on him on NYG terms...
As it turned out it actually was quite a good thought process. But then there are those who wouldn’t give DG credit for anything no matter.
LW arrived midway through'19 and was solid, not great. So the advantage seemed to be with the Giants heading into that offseason negotiation.
Yet, DG couldn't get a deal and Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.
So now that the ink is dry on the contract, how exactly did DG "win"?
Quote:
As it turned out it actually was quite a good thought process. But then there are those who wouldn’t give DG credit for anything no matter.
LW arrived midway through'19 and was solid, not great. So the advantage seemed to be with the Giants heading into that offseason negotiation.
Yet, DG couldn't get a deal and Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.
So now that the ink is dry on the contract, how exactly did DG "win"?
Is that a serious question? He “won” because he signed a 26 year-old stud in his prime. Sure it was higher than he would have liked, but he secured the guy he wanted. That’s a win as I see it
Some here are so stuck on there track they’r ride it like a train off a cliff in Back to the Future III!
Some of you guys are absolutely something; absurd, delusional, moronic, stubborn, pessimistic, bitter, who knows.
Not name calling - just attributes - temporary or permanent.
If anyone said we could trade 3rd pick for an elite DT in his prime and he we had him signed for long-term deal who would complain.
The same people complaining couldn’t sniff an NFL GM position if they lived 10 lifetimes.
Is that a serious question? He “won” because he signed a 26 year-old stud in his prime. Sure it was higher than he would have liked, but he secured the guy he wanted. That’s a win as I see it
Exactly. But remember who you’re arguing with.
Quote:
As it turned out it actually was quite a good thought process. But then there are those who wouldn’t give DG credit for anything no matter.
LW arrived midway through'19 and was solid, not great. So the advantage seemed to be with the Giants heading into that offseason negotiation.
Yet, DG couldn't get a deal and Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.
So now that the ink is dry on the contract, how exactly did DG "win"?
You do understand that you contradict yourself here.
“Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.”
As you admit, it was team LW that made that call which they could do no matter what DG wanted or tried to do. DG couldn’t force them to sign. They played their hand and won. That’s not on DG that’s a good move by team LW as you yourself explained.
Quote:
In comment 15300334 BillT said:
Quote:
As it turned out it actually was quite a good thought process. But then there are those who wouldn’t give DG credit for anything no matter.
LW arrived midway through'19 and was solid, not great. So the advantage seemed to be with the Giants heading into that offseason negotiation.
Yet, DG couldn't get a deal and Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.
So now that the ink is dry on the contract, how exactly did DG "win"?
You do understand that you contradict yourself here.
“Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.”
As you admit, it was team LW that made that call which they could do no matter what DG wanted or tried to do. DG couldn’t force them to sign. They played their hand and won. That’s not on DG that’s a good move by team LW as you yourself explained.
Thank you. I m reading these criticisms of DG not being able to get a deal done, and I m thinking, how is it his fault that Williams wanted to gamble on himself and wait for elite money.
Quote:
In comment 15300362 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15300334 BillT said:
Quote:
As it turned out it actually was quite a good thought process. But then there are those who wouldn’t give DG credit for anything no matter.
LW arrived midway through'19 and was solid, not great. So the advantage seemed to be with the Giants heading into that offseason negotiation.
Yet, DG couldn't get a deal and Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.
So now that the ink is dry on the contract, how exactly did DG "win"?
You do understand that you contradict yourself here.
“Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.”
As you admit, it was team LW that made that call which they could do no matter what DG wanted or tried to do. DG couldn’t force them to sign. They played their hand and won. That’s not on DG that’s a good move by team LW as you yourself explained.
Thank you. I m reading these criticisms of DG not being able to get a deal done, and I m thinking, how is it his fault that Williams wanted to gamble on himself and wait for elite money.
Because he should have KNOWN BETTER and not made the trade. 😎
Some here are so stuck on there track they’r ride it like a train off a cliff in Back to the Future III!
Some of you guys are absolutely something; absurd, delusional, moronic, stubborn, pessimistic, bitter, who knows.
Not name calling - just attributes - temporary or permanent.
If anyone said we could trade 3rd pick for an elite DT in his prime and he we had him signed for long-term deal who would complain.
The same people complaining couldn’t sniff an NFL GM position if they lived 10 lifetimes.
I remember the good old days where bitching about LW's "massive" deal meant we couldn't possibly have any cap room to sign any other free agents and we'd have to stand pat. If those guys couldn't sniff a GM position, hell would freeze over before they could be capologists!
It was so poorly executed from the start yet he's a Giant despite the fact that 31 other teams would love to have it...
Quote:
In comment 15300321 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
terrible thought process to obtain...
As it turned out it actually was quite a good thought process. But then there are those who wouldn’t give DG credit for anything no matter.
Actually it wasn’t. It was poorly executed from the start. But they got their man in the end despite the delay and eventual higher cost to obtain.
And it’s a not a DG thing. He targeted a good player, he just couldn’t figure out a way to sign on him on NYG terms...
Quote:
Thank you!
Some here are so stuck on there track they’r ride it like a train off a cliff in Back to the Future III!
Some of you guys are absolutely something; absurd, delusional, moronic, stubborn, pessimistic, bitter, who knows.
Not name calling - just attributes - temporary or permanent.
If anyone said we could trade 3rd pick for an elite DT in his prime and he we had him signed for long-term deal who would complain.
The same people complaining couldn’t sniff an NFL GM position if they lived 10 lifetimes.
I remember the good old days where bitching about LW's "massive" deal meant we couldn't possibly have any cap room to sign any other free agents and we'd have to stand pat. If those guys couldn't sniff a GM position, hell would freeze over before they could be capologists!
This right here.
There is no way we can sign LW and other free agents! What? we signed some free agents? Ummm no no it was a bad trade all along because he couldn't be signed. Argument changes every time but the base line is the same. Gettleman hate
To each there own
If he’s a bust now it will be joke on the Giants but if he puts up a few more seasons like 2020 then no one but dug in Giants fans will care about the negotiations.
I say it all the time but I speak daily in group chat with my fantasy league team members, non are Giants fans and none of them even bring this stupid argument up. Pretty much no one thinks this is significant unless you are one one side of BBI or writing an article for clicks.
Quote:
Thank you!
Some here are so stuck on there track they’r ride it like a train off a cliff in Back to the Future III!
Some of you guys are absolutely something; absurd, delusional, moronic, stubborn, pessimistic, bitter, who knows.
Not name calling - just attributes - temporary or permanent.
If anyone said we could trade 3rd pick for an elite DT in his prime and he we had him signed for long-term deal who would complain.
The same people complaining couldn’t sniff an NFL GM position if they lived 10 lifetimes.
I remember the good old days where bitching about LW's "massive" deal meant we couldn't possibly have any cap room to sign any other free agents and we'd have to stand pat. If those guys couldn't sniff a GM position, hell would freeze over before they could be capologists!
Yup, I remember the good old days of early March 2021, when a lot of posters declared DG and Abrams abject failures bc we couldn’t sign any free agents - before free agency even began.
Signing LW at a home town discount was never going to happen, and wasn’t a pre-requisite for the trade to be a win for the Giants.
As others have said, I just really hope he continues to perform at or close to 2020 level for most of his deal. But he seems a pretty sound gamble on that front
Quote:
In comment 15300362 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15300334 BillT said:
Quote:
As it turned out it actually was quite a good thought process. But then there are those who wouldn’t give DG credit for anything no matter.
LW arrived midway through'19 and was solid, not great. So the advantage seemed to be with the Giants heading into that offseason negotiation.
Yet, DG couldn't get a deal and Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.
So now that the ink is dry on the contract, how exactly did DG "win"?
You do understand that you contradict yourself here.
“Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.”
As you admit, it was team LW that made that call which they could do no matter what DG wanted or tried to do. DG couldn’t force them to sign. They played their hand and won. That’s not on DG that’s a good move by team LW as you yourself explained.
Thank you. I m reading these criticisms of DG not being able to get a deal done, and I m thinking, how is it his fault that Williams wanted to gamble on himself and wait for elite money.
I don't think you can blame DG for LW betting on himself, but I do think it's a little bit funny (and very convenient) that all of the supporters of the trade at the time very vocally claimed that DG must already have a handshake agreement with LW and that he'd be signed to a new deal before free agency even opened (in 2020) - and that the deal would be team-friendly or else why would DG have traded for LW in the first place?
Instead, it took two tags and a top of the market contract.
DG got his man. But a lot of the nonsense that supporters of the trade were trying to claim at the time was pure fiction, as are most of their contortions to defend DG at all costs.
Quote:
In comment 15300381 Daniel in Kentucky said:
Quote:
Thank you!
Some here are so stuck on there track they’r ride it like a train off a cliff in Back to the Future III!
Some of you guys are absolutely something; absurd, delusional, moronic, stubborn, pessimistic, bitter, who knows.
Not name calling - just attributes - temporary or permanent.
If anyone said we could trade 3rd pick for an elite DT in his prime and he we had him signed for long-term deal who would complain.
The same people complaining couldn’t sniff an NFL GM position if they lived 10 lifetimes.
I remember the good old days where bitching about LW's "massive" deal meant we couldn't possibly have any cap room to sign any other free agents and we'd have to stand pat. If those guys couldn't sniff a GM position, hell would freeze over before they could be capologists!
Yup, I remember the good old days of early March 2021, when a lot of posters declared DG and Abrams abject failures bc we couldn’t sign any free agents - before free agency even began.
Signing LW at a home town discount was never going to happen, and wasn’t a pre-requisite for the trade to be a win for the Giants.
As others have said, I just really hope he continues to perform at or close to 2020 level for most of his deal. But he seems a pretty sound gamble on that front
As long as you also remember the posters on the other side of the argument who spent the end of the 2019 season claiming that DG already had a handshake agreement in place with LW and that it would indeed be a team-friendly price tag.
Or are we only remembering one side getting it wrong?
Quote:
In comment 15300397 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 15300362 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15300334 BillT said:
Quote:
As it turned out it actually was quite a good thought process. But then there are those who wouldn’t give DG credit for anything no matter.
LW arrived midway through'19 and was solid, not great. So the advantage seemed to be with the Giants heading into that offseason negotiation.
Yet, DG couldn't get a deal and Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.
So now that the ink is dry on the contract, how exactly did DG "win"?
You do understand that you contradict yourself here.
“Team LW bet on themselves heading into '20.”
As you admit, it was team LW that made that call which they could do no matter what DG wanted or tried to do. DG couldn’t force them to sign. They played their hand and won. That’s not on DG that’s a good move by team LW as you yourself explained.
Thank you. I m reading these criticisms of DG not being able to get a deal done, and I m thinking, how is it his fault that Williams wanted to gamble on himself and wait for elite money.
I don't think you can blame DG for LW betting on himself, but I do think it's a little bit funny (and very convenient) that all of the supporters of the trade at the time very vocally claimed that DG must already have a handshake agreement with LW and that he'd be signed to a new deal before free agency even opened (in 2020) - and that the deal would be team-friendly or else why would DG have traded for LW in the first place?
Instead, it took two tags and a top of the market contract.
DG got his man. But a lot of the nonsense that supporters of the trade were trying to claim at the time was pure fiction, as are most of their contortions to defend DG at all costs.
That s true, I wasn’t one of those guys though, I just wanted Williams.
Quote:
In comment 15300440 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15300381 Daniel in Kentucky said:
Quote:
Thank you!
Some here are so stuck on there track they’r ride it like a train off a cliff in Back to the Future III!
Some of you guys are absolutely something; absurd, delusional, moronic, stubborn, pessimistic, bitter, who knows.
Not name calling - just attributes - temporary or permanent.
If anyone said we could trade 3rd pick for an elite DT in his prime and he we had him signed for long-term deal who would complain.
The same people complaining couldn’t sniff an NFL GM position if they lived 10 lifetimes.
I remember the good old days where bitching about LW's "massive" deal meant we couldn't possibly have any cap room to sign any other free agents and we'd have to stand pat. If those guys couldn't sniff a GM position, hell would freeze over before they could be capologists!
Yup, I remember the good old days of early March 2021, when a lot of posters declared DG and Abrams abject failures bc we couldn’t sign any free agents - before free agency even began.
Signing LW at a home town discount was never going to happen, and wasn’t a pre-requisite for the trade to be a win for the Giants.
As others have said, I just really hope he continues to perform at or close to 2020 level for most of his deal. But he seems a pretty sound gamble on that front
As long as you also remember the posters on the other side of the argument who spent the end of the 2019 season claiming that DG already had a handshake agreement in place with LW and that it would indeed be a team-friendly price tag.
Or are we only remembering one side getting it wrong?
Because there are probably a bunch of people like myself who thought it was a solid trade for the most part but wanted to take a wait and see approach approach before going too crazy. Those people should definitely have some fun at the expense of the dummies who thought this trade was so offensive. As for you bringing up posters who claimed there was a "handshake deal" in place, I'm guessing that was a very small minority, unlike the number of people who killed the deal from the moment it was announced.
Nothing. You don't lose anything. Just like I don't lose anything for having thought the trade itself was a headscratcher, but now being happy to have LW on the team going forward.
I just think the service of crow gets a little one-sided sometimes.
are from Mississippi State.
Quote:
maybe they did and LW balked at the 11th hour, I don't know. So, joke's on me for thinking something and it not happening? What do I lose?
Nothing. You don't lose anything. Just like I don't lose anything for having thought the trade itself was a headscratcher, but now being happy to have LW on the team going forward.
I just think the service of crow gets a little one-sided sometimes.
Ehh, you guys earn it. This board is blessed with non-stop bashing at any and everything at all times it seems. And no one here is even gloating, or gloating repeatedly which is really my only beef with people that are negative - it just never stops and gets beaten to death.
LW wasn't signed how I envisioned it but he's a good player and I'm glad he's on the team.
When you factor in the franchise tag this past year, the Giants gave up a high 3rd round pick+ just for the right to sign Leonard Williams to 4y/82M contract with 64M Guaranteed. So draft capital and a contract WELL ABOVE his market value at the time he was acquired. It was a bad process and there's not a whole lot of margin for error there. He's a rare talent, especially for this scheme, so there's an argument to be made for overpaying for him but that can turn into a massive overpay pretty quickly.
Quote:
In comment 15300477 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
maybe they did and LW balked at the 11th hour, I don't know. So, joke's on me for thinking something and it not happening? What do I lose?
Nothing. You don't lose anything. Just like I don't lose anything for having thought the trade itself was a headscratcher, but now being happy to have LW on the team going forward.
I just think the service of crow gets a little one-sided sometimes.
Ehh, you guys earn it. This board is blessed with non-stop bashing at any and everything at all times it seems. And no one here is even gloating, or gloating repeatedly which is really my only beef with people that are negative - it just never stops and gets beaten to death.
LW wasn't signed how I envisioned it but he's a good player and I'm glad he's on the team.
The reason for the bashing is that this franchise is 18-46 over the past four years and 48-80 over the past eight seasons.
There's a lot to bash when a franchise is in an extended funk like that. I'm sure some posters bash for the sake of bashing. And others bash the team out of frustration and genuinely wanting them to improve, often seeing some the same mistakes repeating themselves at times.
It does appear that this team is on the right track, and some brighter days are ahead. I suspect a lot of the bashing will subside when that happens, and it won't be because all the fans who bashed the team are just that fickle. It'll be that their frustration will have finally waned, IMO.
Quote:
In comment 15300479 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15300477 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
maybe they did and LW balked at the 11th hour, I don't know. So, joke's on me for thinking something and it not happening? What do I lose?
Nothing. You don't lose anything. Just like I don't lose anything for having thought the trade itself was a headscratcher, but now being happy to have LW on the team going forward.
I just think the service of crow gets a little one-sided sometimes.
Ehh, you guys earn it. This board is blessed with non-stop bashing at any and everything at all times it seems. And no one here is even gloating, or gloating repeatedly which is really my only beef with people that are negative - it just never stops and gets beaten to death.
LW wasn't signed how I envisioned it but he's a good player and I'm glad he's on the team.
The reason for the bashing is that this franchise is 18-46 over the past four years and 48-80 over the past eight seasons.
There's a lot to bash when a franchise is in an extended funk like that. I'm sure some posters bash for the sake of bashing. And others bash the team out of frustration and genuinely wanting them to improve, often seeing some the same mistakes repeating themselves at times.
It does appear that this team is on the right track, and some brighter days are ahead. I suspect a lot of the bashing will subside when that happens, and it won't be because all the fans who bashed the team are just that fickle. It'll be that their frustration will have finally waned, IMO.
What does franchise record have to do with being irrationally dumb? Forget about LW, go back and read the Beckham trade thread or the Rhule signs with Carolina thread. These are all things that given some time, appear to have worked out or are working out for NYG.
When something good happens you get some posts about it and then people move on. When something bad happens you hear about it constantly and for months if not years. Its a miserable way to operate, IMO. And maybe some of you enjoy it but I definitely dont, so i just participate less. My problem not yours, but that's my solution.
When something good happens you get some posts about it and then people move on. When something bad happens you hear about it constantly and for months if not years. Its a miserable way to operate, IMO. And maybe some of you enjoy it but I definitely dont, so i just participate less. My problem not yours, but that's my solution.
And again, I think the relative lifespan of threads, be they positive or negative, is in direct correlation to the state of the team.
Part of why positive threads die quickly right now is that there's often something negative that happens soon after. And the negative occurrences tend to be more frequent recently - that's just the nature of a team in a down cycle.
If we win 9+ games this year, I think you'll see a more even split of positive/negative threads (and posts within threads). If/when we become a consistent 11+ win team, the positive posts and threads will overtake the negatives.
Fan sentiment is a reflection of the team's status.
Quote:
In comment 15300484 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15300479 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15300477 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
maybe they did and LW balked at the 11th hour, I don't know. So, joke's on me for thinking something and it not happening? What do I lose?
Nothing. You don't lose anything. Just like I don't lose anything for having thought the trade itself was a headscratcher, but now being happy to have LW on the team going forward.
I just think the service of crow gets a little one-sided sometimes.
Ehh, you guys earn it. This board is blessed with non-stop bashing at any and everything at all times it seems. And no one here is even gloating, or gloating repeatedly which is really my only beef with people that are negative - it just never stops and gets beaten to death.
LW wasn't signed how I envisioned it but he's a good player and I'm glad he's on the team.
The reason for the bashing is that this franchise is 18-46 over the past four years and 48-80 over the past eight seasons.
There's a lot to bash when a franchise is in an extended funk like that. I'm sure some posters bash for the sake of bashing. And others bash the team out of frustration and genuinely wanting them to improve, often seeing some the same mistakes repeating themselves at times.
It does appear that this team is on the right track, and some brighter days are ahead. I suspect a lot of the bashing will subside when that happens, and it won't be because all the fans who bashed the team are just that fickle. It'll be that their frustration will have finally waned, IMO.
What does franchise record have to do with being irrationally dumb? Forget about LW, go back and read the Beckham trade thread or the Rhule signs with Carolina thread. These are all things that given some time, appear to have worked out or are working out for NYG.
And there are several instances where the so-called bashers wound up being correct. Lately, probably more of those scenarios than the few you plucked here.
Terps is often painted as one of the most vocal bashers on the board, but he's also been right pretty frequently in recent years. Even JonC has expressed frustration with some of the decisions that the franchise has made, and he's as even-keeled and informed a fan as there is on this board.
It's just the way it goes when a team sucks for an extended period of time.
From what I can tell we've got a coach that knows what he's doing, we signed several impact players, and had a pretty damn good draft (TBD of course but the picks generated aren't debatable). Everything else is old news.
You have no leverage as a GM; but you do have leverage if a player is franchise tagged.
A great move to get a 6th overall pick in his prime for a 3rd round pick.
From what I can tell we've got a coach that knows what he's doing, we signed several impact players, and had a pretty damn good draft (TBD of course but the picks generated aren't debatable). Everything else is old news.
Fair. But we've also lived exactly this scenario. How many fans felt really good about the team going into 2017, coming off of the 11-5 season in 2016?
Then the wheels fell off, the team bottomed out, Reese, Ross, McAdoo were all canned, and the DG era began.
The offseasons have been the highlight of being a fan recently. I definitely understand wanting to be optimistic and hopeful - that's a big part of what being a fan is about - but I also think it's nuts that fans that view this team through an exceedingly critical lens are looked down upon by some here.
In any other facet of life, wouldn't you wait for someone to prove that things have changed before you took them at their word? If your favorite restaurant all of sudden started to go way downhill and the quality of the food and service sucked, you'd be pretty bummed it, right? And you might keep giving them the benefit of the doubt and giving them chances to improve while they tell you that they hired a new chef, new manager, whatever. But you'd probably stop recommending the place to your friends and family until you actually experienced some sort of improvement firsthand, right?
I agree that sports are different.
Using my own restaurant example, if my favorite restaurant turned to crap and started serving gruel more often than not, I'd find a new favorite restaurant. Same with just about any consumer category.
But sports are different. I can't imagine what it would take for me to separate myself from the Giants. But that's also why it's so frustrating when they suck for an extended period of time.
As far as the Beckham trade goes I thought the day it was made it was one of the best choices DG made in his first two years. At some point Beckham may have another elite season although I doubt it. He wasn't worth the trouble anymore when the Giants dumped him.
The thing with Ruhle that didn't sit well at the time with many Giant fans was that Mara said the contract was too rich for him (he said it was the years and the years = $). I didn't and don't know enough about Ruhle to guess whether he was worth the money or not. But I don't ever want to hear NY teams backing off someone they want over money especially when there is no cap involved.