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Williams is No. 7 on a list of the NFL’s best defensive tackles assembled by ESPN. The list was compiled by asking more than 50 coaches, execs, and scouts from across the NFL. The participants gave their best 10 to 15 players at the positing and then ESPN collated the information to formulate their list. Defensive tackle has arguablybeen the Giants strongest position group on the roster, and the deepest. New York just retained Williams by signing him to a three-year, $63 million deal with $45 million guaranteed. Let’s take a look at the rest of the list: Aaron Donald, Rams Chris Jones, Chiefs DeForest Buckner, Colts Cam Heyward, Steelers Fletcher Cox, Eagles Jeffery Simmons, Titans Leonard Williams, Giants Stephon Tuitt, Steelers Vita Vea, Buccaneers Grady Jarrett, Falcons Also receiving votes were Washington’s Jonathan Allen, Jets’ Quinnen Williams, Cardinals’ J.J. Watt, Bears’ Akiem Hicks, Saints’ David Onyemata, Chiefs Jarran Reed, 49ers Arik Armstead, and Ravens’ Calais Cambell. The list is full of talented players, so it’s not a huge surprise that Williams is not ranked higher. He’s coming off a season with the highest amount of pressures and sacks which earned him the contract extension. He aligned all over Patrick Graham’s defense and did an excellent job with just about everything he was asked to do. |
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In comment 15300440 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15300381 Daniel in Kentucky said:
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Thank you!
Some here are so stuck on there track they’r ride it like a train off a cliff in Back to the Future III!
Some of you guys are absolutely something; absurd, delusional, moronic, stubborn, pessimistic, bitter, who knows.
Not name calling - just attributes - temporary or permanent.
If anyone said we could trade 3rd pick for an elite DT in his prime and he we had him signed for long-term deal who would complain.
The same people complaining couldn’t sniff an NFL GM position if they lived 10 lifetimes.
I remember the good old days where bitching about LW's "massive" deal meant we couldn't possibly have any cap room to sign any other free agents and we'd have to stand pat. If those guys couldn't sniff a GM position, hell would freeze over before they could be capologists!
Yup, I remember the good old days of early March 2021, when a lot of posters declared DG and Abrams abject failures bc we couldn’t sign any free agents - before free agency even began.
Signing LW at a home town discount was never going to happen, and wasn’t a pre-requisite for the trade to be a win for the Giants.
As others have said, I just really hope he continues to perform at or close to 2020 level for most of his deal. But he seems a pretty sound gamble on that front
As long as you also remember the posters on the other side of the argument who spent the end of the 2019 season claiming that DG already had a handshake agreement in place with LW and that it would indeed be a team-friendly price tag.
Or are we only remembering one side getting it wrong?
Not understanding the point, my friend. As an armchair GM, I thought at the time, a handshake agreement was in place. Obviously it wasn’t, but I ALWAYS loved that trade
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In comment 15300440 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15300381 Daniel in Kentucky said:
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Thank you!
Some here are so stuck on there track they’r ride it like a train off a cliff in Back to the Future III!
Some of you guys are absolutely something; absurd, delusional, moronic, stubborn, pessimistic, bitter, who knows.
Not name calling - just attributes - temporary or permanent.
If anyone said we could trade 3rd pick for an elite DT in his prime and he we had him signed for long-term deal who would complain.
The same people complaining couldn’t sniff an NFL GM position if they lived 10 lifetimes.
I remember the good old days where bitching about LW's "massive" deal meant we couldn't possibly have any cap room to sign any other free agents and we'd have to stand pat. If those guys couldn't sniff a GM position, hell would freeze over before they could be capologists!
Yup, I remember the good old days of early March 2021, when a lot of posters declared DG and Abrams abject failures bc we couldn’t sign any free agents - before free agency even began.
Signing LW at a home town discount was never going to happen, and wasn’t a pre-requisite for the trade to be a win for the Giants.
As others have said, I just really hope he continues to perform at or close to 2020 level for most of his deal. But he seems a pretty sound gamble on that front
As long as you also remember the posters on the other side of the argument who spent the end of the 2019 season claiming that DG already had a handshake agreement in place with LW and that it would indeed be a team-friendly price tag.
Or are we only remembering one side getting it wrong?
First and foremost, hope you’re well GD, always happy to see you posting, even when we disagree
And your post here is fair - I was firing a shot across the bow at those who were posting about 2021 free agency being a failure bc of DG and Abrams’ incompetence - before free agency even started
I generally lean on the let’s wait and see how it plays out side of things. It was fair to question the trade, but to declare it an outright mistake or failure at the time was foolish. So was declaring it a success without seeing how William’s played
I always thought it was a reasonable risk/reward gamble. Draft picks are valuable, but 3rd and 5th round picks rarely turn into pro bowlers across the league.
He’s played well enough to prove it a good trade, he’s a true game changer and one of the better defensive players in football. DG and the Giants gambled on his upside and so far, they’ve been proven right.
2021 free agency and the LW contract is now another story, the conclusion of which is also unknown. I once again think it was a reasonable risk - he strikes me as the kind of player who will continue to work hard and produce at a high level.
But it’s always possible it turns out to be like an Olivier Vernon deal - one big season then he fades, whether due to injury or lack of commitment after getting paid or both. We won’t know the answer until 2-3 years from now.
If he’s a bust now it will be joke on the Giants but if he puts up a few more seasons like 2020 then no one but dug in Giants fans will care about the negotiations.
What if he's neither a bust nor what he was in 2020? What if he goes back to the player he's been for most of his career - good, but far from great?
It isn't easy even signing a player like Williams in FA and we had him here for 1.5 seasons prior to that long term signing. What if the Giants were better in 2019 and Williams helped them make the playoffs? Or 2020? What if they went 8-8 and won a playoff game BEFORE signing Williams to that long term deal?
It was a great move. I don't know how on earth anyone can sit here and argue this. But that's why i cannot even debate this shit anymore because the internet turns topics into horse shit debates. Just argue.
We got an all pro player here. Thanks Jets.
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but so did the Giants (unless of course he just stinks now). He bet on himself and because of that the “DG couldn’t get a deal done” narrative is highly flawed.
If he’s a bust now it will be joke on the Giants but if he puts up a few more seasons like 2020 then no one but dug in Giants fans will care about the negotiations.
What if he's neither a bust nor what he was in 2020? What if he goes back to the player he's been for most of his career - good, but far from great?
Then you could apply that same doom and gloom logic to any player and player acquisition known to man.
Again, the Giants got an all pro talent. How many of these guys spring free? Maybe one per offseason? These guys are worth a lot more than dime a dozen.
Yeah he could fall apart. But he's in his prime and has done nothing but play well here for nearly 2 seasons now. He's as safe a bet as any.
Ask the Jets if they'd take him back today and all those WFAN callers and hosts who were literally (laughably) thanking the Giants for taking Williams off their hands.
The Jets fucked this up. Giants took advantage. If Williams keeps playing like this for 3-4 more years it's going to be one of the most hilarious moves in Jets history. They have a few now.
Wasn't he second team in 2020? Ok fine if not. He's still an elite talent.
We're better off making the trade. Jets blew it yet again.
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Last year represented a big upgrade in performance for him over 2019, and most of the rest of his career for that matter. If the 2019 Williams is who he is going forward, he a)is not one of the best DTs in the league, as you've repeatedly said he is b)is a rather large overpay.
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but so did the Giants (unless of course he just stinks now). He bet on himself and because of that the “DG couldn’t get a deal done” narrative is highly flawed.
If he’s a bust now it will be joke on the Giants but if he puts up a few more seasons like 2020 then no one but dug in Giants fans will care about the negotiations.
What if he's neither a bust nor what he was in 2020? What if he goes back to the player he's been for most of his career - good, but far from great?
Then it’s probably our loss but not a complete failure, rather straight forward, no? Insert any player into this argument by the way, this isn’t specific to the Giants. Even more so is when players stink I often see opposing GMs getting applauded for cutting bait or trading them early, so we can look forward to that as well, right?
It was also reported he trained with R. Seymour in the '20 offseason and I think you could see some technique improvements last year (I saw him do something I don't recall ever seeing & I assumed he learned it from Seymour or a new Giants coach).
Everything we've heard from Graham and Judge is that LW is a very hard worker. And he's durable.
Of course I could be wrong, but based on all of the above, I don't think last year was an anomaly. It was the beginning of a nice Giants career.
It was also reported he trained with R. Seymour in the '20 offseason and I think you could see some technique improvements last year (I saw him do something I don't recall ever seeing & I assumed he learned it from Seymour or a new Giants coach).
Everything we've heard from Graham and Judge is that LW is a very hard worker. And he's durable.
Of course I could be wrong, but based on all of the above, I don't think last year was an anomaly. It was the beginning of a nice Giants career.
The argument not to pay this guy still doesn't make any sense to me. He doesn't play a position that gets aged out early, its more when injuries start piling up. He's 27, healthy, and if you look at the list, I'd say it's Darnold and then the next 6 guys are pretty interchangeable as far as talent goes.
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but so did the Giants (unless of course he just stinks now). He bet on himself and because of that the “DG couldn’t get a deal done” narrative is highly flawed.
If he’s a bust now it will be joke on the Giants but if he puts up a few more seasons like 2020 then no one but dug in Giants fans will care about the negotiations.
What if he's neither a bust nor what he was in 2020? What if he goes back to the player he's been for most of his career - good, but far from great?
Then we paid a 3rd, 5th, and an immense amount of guaranteed money under the tag and an elite money contract for a relatively good interior lineman.
That's when the "win-win" deal becomes the "win-not so much" one...
Here comes the cavalry.
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In comment 15300455 UConn4523 said:
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but so did the Giants (unless of course he just stinks now). He bet on himself and because of that the “DG couldn’t get a deal done” narrative is highly flawed.
If he’s a bust now it will be joke on the Giants but if he puts up a few more seasons like 2020 then no one but dug in Giants fans will care about the negotiations.
What if he's neither a bust nor what he was in 2020? What if he goes back to the player he's been for most of his career - good, but far from great?
Then you could apply that same doom and gloom logic to any player and player acquisition known to man.
Again, the Giants got an all pro talent. How many of these guys spring free? Maybe one per offseason? These guys are worth a lot more than dime a dozen.
Yeah he could fall apart. But he's in his prime and has done nothing but play well here for nearly 2 seasons now. He's as safe a bet as any.
Ask the Jets if they'd take him back today and all those WFAN callers and hosts who were literally (laughably) thanking the Giants for taking Williams off their hands.
The Jets fucked this up. Giants took advantage. If Williams keeps playing like this for 3-4 more years it's going to be one of the most hilarious moves in Jets history. They have a few now.
He played great for ONE year. He played pretty well for a portion of another year.
I am absolutely HOPING that 2020 represents LW's future going forward, but here's the difference between you and me: I recognize that 2020 might well be an outlier for LW. You're locked in and ready to pretend that he's just going to replicate that every year going forward.
The pollyanna shit is just as tiresome as the bashing.
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call it what you will. He's an elite player. Link - ( New Window )
Here comes the cavalry.
And that's what we are talking about, nicely done!
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In comment 15300671 djm said:
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call it what you will. He's an elite player. Link - ( New Window )
Here comes the cavalry.
And that's what we are talking about, nicely done!
Ditto.
You do realize that YOU proved MY point, right?
Done on this thread, enjoy guys.
1) Would a top 10 pick, who was a mild disappointment, put it all together in his 6th year
2) Would the Giants be able to sign him to an extension commensurate with reasonable, expected performance
I always felt the declarations on one side or the other were premature. Turns out, both those things happened. The ends justified the means. But it certainly had the potential to go the other way.
The team has been awful and deserves every bit of criticism it gets.
What I don't understand is the blind optimism. If you're watching a plane crash into a mountain you don't tell yourself everyone on board is ok.
The Giants have been a decade long series of mistakes and bad decisions. You want to tell yourself each offseason that the same bad methodology is going to yield different results, that's up to you.
Done on this thread, enjoy guys.
And the bashing continues.
Don't blame the board when your own fortitude is to blame.
People are right, that putting yourself at a disadvantage in a negotiation can work out in the end absolutely. But he 100% needs to live up to this contract first to justify that review. And there is no denying the Giants increased the risk of this move not working out because of the way it was handled.
Including but not at all limited to the fact that the Giants very much have to prove they know how to allocate resources properly to build a winning team. They get no credit from me if LW is a bowler the next 3 years and the team on the whole still sucks.
It's honestly these pronounced victory laps that people seem to want to take at the smallest signs that there are competent people running the Giants org that has me barely able to read this site anymore.
We have a chance to be decent for the first time in a long time this year, yes, I'd agree. But the fact that we have a #2, #4 and #6 overall pick on a unit that could very well flop is still a blight on the front office who has quite frankly been one of the more embarrassing GMs I've ever had to root for.
I don't think you can blame DG for LW betting on himself, but I do think it's a little bit funny (and very convenient) that all of the supporters of the trade at the time very vocally claimed that DG must already have a handshake agreement with LW and that he'd be signed to a new deal before free agency even opened (in 2020) - and that the deal would be team-friendly or else why would DG have traded for LW in the first place?
Instead, it took two tags and a top of the market contract.
DG got his man. But a lot of the nonsense that supporters of the trade were trying to claim at the time was pure fiction, as are most of their contortions to defend DG at all costs.
This for sure. This was a common refrain from the supporters of this trade - that DG heisted the Jets and there has to be a gentlemen's agreement in place. And that we would have a cap friendly, hometown discount in place once 2019 ended. Many of us, however, at the time, predicted this was not going to be a lay-up; and the market price for LW was substantially > than this magical hometown was a mirage. Which it was...
So these victory laps are bit disingenuous because there is some convenient amnesia taking hold...
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I don't think you can blame DG for LW betting on himself, but I do think it's a little bit funny (and very convenient) that all of the supporters of the trade at the time very vocally claimed that DG must already have a handshake agreement with LW and that he'd be signed to a new deal before free agency even opened (in 2020) - and that the deal would be team-friendly or else why would DG have traded for LW in the first place?
Instead, it took two tags and a top of the market contract.
DG got his man. But a lot of the nonsense that supporters of the trade were trying to claim at the time was pure fiction, as are most of their contortions to defend DG at all costs.
This for sure. This was a common refrain from the supporters of this trade - that DG heisted the Jets and there has to be a gentlemen's agreement in place. And that we would have a cap friendly, hometown discount in place once 2019 ended. Many of us, however, at the time, predicted this was not going to be a lay-up; and the market price for LW was substantially > than this magical hometown was a mirage. Which it was...
So these victory laps are bit disingenuous because there is some convenient amnesia taking hold...
Again, there are no victory laps. Many of us thought there would be a deal in place, that’s what us armchair GMs thought. We were wrong. BFD. we STILL WANTED A TALENTED 25 YEAR-OLD with his prime years ahead. We didn’t care what we spent because we felt that money would be there one way or the other for him and FAs we coveted. That’s what experts like Abrams do FOR A LIVING. And, do it without kicking the can down the road while being mindful of the good cap shape we’d be in in the few years thereafter..
And hopefully not the real GM...
If the cap wasn't moving much it has the potential to be burdensome but they took a shot on 3 players in a discounted year and structured the deals to hit when the cap skyrockets. That's a sound strategy (although not the original strategy with LW). And if we actually start hitting on these draft picks like we hope we will with Judge, that will give us even more flexibility (like letting Peppers walk if McKinney is the goods, Ojulari being a + ER and not having to sign a top tier FA, etc.).
Again, there are no victory laps. Many of us thought there would be a deal in place, that’s what us armchair GMs thought. We were wrong. BFD. we STILL WANTED A TALENTED 25 YEAR-OLD with his prime years ahead. We didn’t care what we spent because we felt that money would be there one way or the other for him and FAs we coveted. That’s what experts like Abrams do FOR A LIVING. And, do it without kicking the can down the road while being mindful of the good cap shape we’d be in in the few years thereafter..
Hey, I didn't start this thread or make comments about how DG basically had the last laugh here (not saying you did). But that's where this started to go quite early.
And being a student of Giants history, I was, as usual, glad to help... ;)
If the cap wasn't moving much it has the potential to be burdensome but they took a shot on 3 players in a discounted year and structured the deals to hit when the cap skyrockets. That's a sound strategy (although not the original strategy with LW). And if we actually start hitting on these draft picks like we hope we will with Judge, that will give us even more flexibility (like letting Peppers walk if McKinney is the goods, Ojulari being a + ER and not having to sign a top tier FA, etc.).
Stated better than I would. Or could..👍🏿👍
Gettleman's Giants have gone 15-33. FYI.
Sounds good. As long as you promise to come along as well so we have someone who will order lunch...
If my iPhone breaks after two weeks and I'm like the quality of this product sucks now, they aren't the organization they used to be, maybe they should consider some bigger changes at the top. Are people like WELL DO YOU WANT TO REPLACE TIM COOK? ARE YOU SAYING YOU ARE SMARTER? CAN YOU PROGRAM AN IPHONE?
Honestly, it's downright embarrassing some of the moves and things the Giants have done that are just so horrible from a strategy and game theory perspective that, I honestly wish it wasn't so easy to see how bad they were.
But regardless there is this false equivalency drawn here all the time that professionals running an organization worth billions of dollars are somehow beyond critique. If the organization was better at assessing itself we wouldn't be the laughing stocks we are.
If my iPhone breaks after two weeks and I'm like the quality of this product sucks now, they aren't the organization they used to be, maybe they should consider some bigger changes at the top. Are people like WELL DO YOU WANT TO REPLACE TIM COOK? ARE YOU SAYING YOU ARE SMARTER? CAN YOU PROGRAM AN IPHONE?
Honestly, it's downright embarrassing some of the moves and things the Giants have done that are just so horrible from a strategy and game theory perspective that, I honestly wish it wasn't so easy to see how bad they were.
But regardless there is this false equivalency drawn here all the time that professionals running an organization worth billions of dollars are somehow beyond critique. If the organization was better at assessing itself we wouldn't be the laughing stocks we are.
Who gives a shit what the Giants did before Judge? It’s history..Judge has assembled what looks like a terrific OVERALL staff (we’ll see what Garrett does with the weapons he’ll have) and DG and JJ seem to be working well..It’s this team with health and an influx of talent that matters now..No one but the “usuals” give a rat’s ass how they’ve done pre Judge..I certainly don’t.
Pass
1) Judge is just the coach, there are layers and layers of management above him that have proven to be one of the worst executive teams in the league the last 10 years.
2) The "Judge" Giants were still 6-10 in the worst division in Football, an actually historically bad division
3) Let's stick with the tech product example. If you were buying a phone and there were statistics saying that the phones more than any other phones the last 10 years but a little less than average last year with an "exciting" new VP at the company. Would you be like, let me buy that phone! Who cares that all the old ones broke?! No.
1) Judge is just the coach, there are layers and layers of management above him that have proven to be one of the worst executive teams in the league the last 10 years.
2) The "Judge" Giants were still 6-10 in the worst division in Football, an actually historically bad division
3) Let's stick with the tech product example. If you were buying a phone and there were statistics saying that the phones more than any other phones the last 10 years but a little less than average last year with an "exciting" new VP at the company. Would you be like, let me buy that phone! Who cares that all the old ones broke?! No.
You’re insufferable. Lawd. Will not waste my time on you any longer. Wash. Rinse. Repeat..Good day.
You'd like to think that having two SB wins over the dynasty team would be sufficient - and yet, you'd be dead fucking wrong.
Let's root for the Lions!!
Come on NFD. MetLife is a palace - "John's World" clearly outshines "Jerry's World".
What a gift to the fans... ;)
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fairly insufferable.
Come on NFD. MetLife is a palace - "John's World" clearly outshines "Jerry's World".
What a gift to the fans... ;)
Have never been there, but I’ve heard that the Stadium could have been so much better (Retractable dome, etc)
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fairly insufferable.
Come on NFD. MetLife is a palace - "John's World" clearly outshines "Jerry's World".
What a gift to the fans... ;)
I mean, would fans prefer he spent more taxpayer $? Or charged more for PSL's? The more these things cost the more fans end up paying one way or another.
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In comment 15300999 NoGainDayne said:
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fairly insufferable.
Come on NFD. MetLife is a palace - "John's World" clearly outshines "Jerry's World".
What a gift to the fans... ;)
Have never been there, but I’ve heard that the Stadium could have been so much better (Retractable dome, etc)
it could still be just as cool as SoFi Stadium if they decide to spend another $3bn.
Come on NFD. MetLife is a palace - "John's World" clearly outshines "Jerry's World".
What a gift to the fans... ;)
Have never been there, but I’ve heard that the Stadium could have been so much better (Retractable dome, etc)
ML is not impressive. Just big and dull. No personality.
I'm anti-roof, btw, so that wasn't a show stopper for me. I like the elements factor...
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Come on NFD. MetLife is a palace - "John's World" clearly outshines "Jerry's World".
What a gift to the fans... ;)
Have never been there, but I’ve heard that the Stadium could have been so much better (Retractable dome, etc)
ML is not impressive. Just big and dull. No personality.
I'm anti-roof, btw, so that wasn't a show stopper for me. I like the elements factor...
Back in 2008 I went with Phil in Az to the Giants/Cards game. It was oppressively hot as I recall and they closed the roof. The loudness and echoes were beyond brutal.
Let me tell you something my Fat Friend in Charlotte.
If you think anybody remotely considers MetLife a Jet stadium first, and a Giants stadium second, you are officially out of your mind.
Let me guess - when you think Staples Center you think Clippers first...