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If the team is headed in the right direction (ownership)

UberAlias : 7/14/2021 9:00 am
Ownership has taken a lot of heat for the state of the team the past several years, and for good reason. The final years of Eli's career were wasted by bad coaching hires and poor decision making with a reboot that came too late (Reese was kept too long, 2018 was a bad year for the FO on so many levels, etc.)

One of the big criticisms was a tired old thinking trying to recreate past victories falling back into what worked in the past. So now we are here now and although the team has yet to prove something, there is a much different feel about this team and the direction they are headed. A lot of that stems form what Joe Judge is building, which is a complete overhaul of the football program. Judge himself was an outside hire, not a stay within your confort zone hire. They could have selected a retread like they did in Dallas or gone the X's and Os coordinator route to groom the young QB like they did with Shurmur or run the defense. They didn't. They took a shot on a guy on the basis of the qualities he has as a leader, his vision, attention to detail, and ability to communicate, and trusted him with the massive responsibility for rebuilding the program. Smartly, the first thing he did was overhaul the exceedingly deficient coaching staff and his abilities of persuasion and as a leader allowed him to sell several former head coaches far his senior to come on board. That in itself tells you a lot about the man they hired.

This may not work out for the team. We all know there are so many things that can go wrong, many being circumstantial. But in my view, I feel it is safe to say, whether it works out or not, though I am assuming it will, ownership deserves a bit of credit here for finally getting this one right. Particularly with respect to having the courage to step outside of their comfort zone, set aside media skepticism and take a chance on a relatively unknown candidate who did't have a lot of pins on his resume to CYA when he fails. That's the sort of thinking we need from ownership and has been very much lacking ---up until this point. As much as Mara and co. deserve the criticism that has been thrown their way the past few years, they also deserve a lot of credit for the optimism that's growing in the building.

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seems so ironic and funny to me  
djm : 7/15/2021 1:10 pm : link
that the 2 best QBs in franchise history, one of them still so fresh in our memories, were both virtually on the chopping block, both here and just about everywhere, by year 3. Terps I know you loved Eli and probably defended him in 2007, but dude....YEAR 3! Astonishing the lack of patience and perspective you've displayed with Jones. I say that respectfully because I know you know the NFL and this franchise as well as anyone. Just bizarre.

Whatever, I was told I get owned by you all the time in these debates, but I don't see it that way. And this one is far from over. I've been right a lot and wrong a lot. I own my mistakes or losses and I think I am right more than I am wrong. Jones is a tough one, but I don't fault the Giants at all for sticking with him this coming year.
 
christian : 7/15/2021 1:11 pm : link
The primary question left unanswered, that’s separated the Giants from the top tier teams the last 8 years: When a difficult personnel decision arises with a popular, fan favorite, good guy — will the Giants operate with their head or heart?

Many of the mistakes from 2018/2019 are off the books, but is the root cause?
and before I hear the same bullshit  
djm : 7/15/2021 1:14 pm : link
I picked NYG to go 7-9 in 2020. Said right here the defense would surprise in a big way but the O would struggle out of the gates. So save me the same response that I am a hopeful blind optimist. I am not a Pollyanna. Anything but. Just because I defend DG doesn't mean I think he's been infallible or above reproach.

I find reasons to be hopeful if I can. Don't see me losing any money betting on this team. I cannot go into every year with no hope. Aint wired that way. Sports are supposed to be a fun distraction.
No one is talking about Jones  
Go Terps : 7/15/2021 1:15 pm : link
My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.
RE: …  
djm : 7/15/2021 1:18 pm : link
In comment 15305635 christian said:
Quote:
The primary question left unanswered, that’s separated the Giants from the top tier teams the last 8 years: When a difficult personnel decision arises with a popular, fan favorite, good guy — will the Giants operate with their head or heart?

Many of the mistakes from 2018/2019 are off the books, but is the root cause?


Eli was due big money. Fans are over thinking this one. They had a decent older QB still on the books and they had Barkley, a transcendent talent sitting there at pick 2. They were coming off the ugliest season in history and wanted to draft the best player.

Not everything is a conspiracy. The second Eli's play didn't elevate that 2018 team, the Giants drafted Jones. It didn't go on as long as some here insist upon. One year. YEs Eli probably should have just quit after 2016 but the team was built to win! Eli was coming off a decent stat year and won 11 games. They went all in for 2017, it went to shit, and 1 full year later they put into effect the plan to move on from ELi. We're talking one year here.

Did the Giants hesitate when Eli didn't look so good in 2019 anymore? No, they started Jones asap.
RE: No one is talking about Jones  
djm : 7/15/2021 1:20 pm : link
In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:
Quote:
My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.


I really don't think the presence of Eli precluded the Giants from drafting a QB in 2018. The presence of BArkley did. Think about it. Eli in 2018 was probably better than he was in 2016 yet the team still drafted a QB in the 2019 draft.

If the Giants loved a QB at pick 2 in 18, they probably draft him. Why is this so hard to believe?
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/15/2021 1:22 pm : link
For a poster who says repeatedly he likes to stick to facts instead of assumptions, a lot of arguments are based on assumptions.

"The Giants were in position to take Allen, Jackson, Herbert without drafting up". Well fuck, they were in position to take Darnold, Rosen, Lock and Tua without trading up as well.

So what in the fuck does that mean? Not to mention that had they taken Allen or Jackson, drafting Herbert isn't really an option is it? Or once they drafted Jones, taking Herbert isn't really an option, is it?

I'll still be looking forward to see comments on Herbert going forward if SD doesn't win. Is crowing about his rookie season going to continue?
no one in their right mind  
djm : 7/15/2021 1:22 pm : link
would pass on a can't miss QB just because they had an ELi Manning on their team coming off that 2017 season. Sorry I aint buying it. And as much as you might insist, Jackson and Allen were NOT can't miss QBs. They came with flags and concerns. These guys weren't Eli Manning Ole Miss or Lawrence. They came with concerns. Allen couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and Jackson was a runner first, passer second.

And Barkley was perfect. You can disagree with NYG's take, but that is how most in the NFL world saw things.
RE: RE: No one is talking about Jones  
Go Terps : 7/15/2021 1:25 pm : link
In comment 15305641 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:


Quote:


My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.



I really don't think the presence of Eli precluded the Giants from drafting a QB in 2018. The presence of BArkley did. Think about it. Eli in 2018 was probably better than he was in 2016 yet the team still drafted a QB in the 2019 draft.

If the Giants loved a QB at pick 2 in 18, they probably draft him. Why is this so hard to believe?


So you think if Eli retires after 2017 they still draft Barkley? I find it hard to believe they could be that stupid.

I have a question for you...you say we have to wait 3 years to assess Jones. OK...so by that rationale shouldn't we only now be assessing the 2018 draft?

Why do we have to be patient with Jones, but let the Barkley pick go already?

Oh that's right...because both picks have borne out to be franchise altering mistakes and we're afraid to admit it.

FMIC  
Go Terps : 7/15/2021 1:28 pm : link
This is a fair point:

Quote:
"The Giants were in position to take Allen, Jackson, Herbert without drafting up". Well fuck, they were in position to take Darnold, Rosen, Lock and Tua without trading up as well.


Given their judgement at QB in 2018 and 2019 it's fair to assume they would have misplayed their considerable hand.
RE: RE: RE: No one is talking about Jones  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/15/2021 1:28 pm : link
Go Terps said:
Quote:

So you think if Eli retires after 2017 they still draft Barkley? I find it hard to believe they could be that stupid.

I have a question for you...you say we have to wait 3 years to assess Jones. OK...so by that rationale shouldn't we only now be assessing the 2018 draft?

Why do we have to be patient with Jones, but let the Barkley pick go already?


and there it is -- rip off the bandaid and that's what you get -- Bash the Jones pick -- hammer! hammer! hammer!


Oh that's right...because both picks have borne out to be franchise altering mistakes and we're afraid to admit it.
[/quote]
.  
Go Terps : 7/15/2021 1:48 pm : link
Quote:
I'll still be looking forward to see comments on Herbert going forward if SD doesn't win. Is crowing about his rookie season going to continue?


And I'm wondering if I'll be getting any apologies when the Giants move on from Jones after this year or next. I doubt it.
RE: .  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/15/2021 1:52 pm : link
In comment 15305665 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


I'll still be looking forward to see comments on Herbert going forward if SD doesn't win. Is crowing about his rookie season going to continue?



And I'm wondering if I'll be getting any apologies when the Giants move on from Jones after this year or next. I doubt it.


Seeing that Jones had a very good rookie year and you treat him like he's been absolute dogshit, are you really looking for apologies or do you just want to say you were right?
The record and the stats speak for themselves  
Go Terps : 7/15/2021 1:59 pm : link
2019



2020



RE: seems so ironic and funny to me  
Scooter185 : 7/15/2021 2:01 pm : link
In comment 15305632 djm said:
Quote:
that the 2 best QBs in franchise history, one of them still so fresh in our memories, were both virtually on the chopping block, both here and just about everywhere, by year 3. Terps I know you loved Eli and probably defended him in 2007, but dude....YEAR 3! Astonishing the lack of patience and perspective you've displayed with Jones. I say that respectfully because I know you know the NFL and this franchise as well as anyone. Just bizarre.

Whatever, I was told I get owned by you all the time in these debates, but I don't see it that way. And this one is far from over. I've been right a lot and wrong a lot. I own my mistakes or losses and I think I am right more than I am wrong. Jones is a tough one, but I don't fault the Giants at all for sticking with him this coming year.


I sincerely doubt you'll see the kind of patience with QBs going forward as was seen in the past. Everyone acts like three years isn't enough time, and by the old paradigm you're right, but three years is likely going to be the amount of time any QB is given to be "the guy" before they're sent packing.


RE: RE: RE: RE: It's not ESPN's opinion  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2021 2:04 pm : link
In comment 15305621 djm said:
Quote:


Yes I am saying that. And who cares? We know the NFL likes Justin Herbert and Jackson and Allen. 2 of those guys were playing into January 2021. Of course they are good QBs.

Can we go back and talk about the good picks the Giants made lately and conjure up the bad players we didn't draft? Haskins? Even Josh Allen the edge player had a quiet 2020.

This team could be on the brink of good sustained play. Big year coming up.


What force is stopping you, or anybody else on this site, from talking about the good picks the Giants have made lately or bad ones avoided? Start a thread, or write a post in this one and have the conversation.

RE: no one in their right mind  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2021 2:08 pm : link
In comment 15305643 djm said:
Quote:
would pass on a can't miss QB just because they had an ELi Manning on their team coming off that 2017 season. Sorry I aint buying it. And as much as you might insist, Jackson and Allen were NOT can't miss QBs. They came with flags and concerns. These guys weren't Eli Manning Ole Miss or Lawrence. They came with concerns. Allen couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and Jackson was a runner first, passer second.

And Barkley was perfect. You can disagree with NYG's take, but that is how most in the NFL world saw things.


He was perfect?

I didn't know that, nor that most in the NFL knew it either.
RE: RE: …  
christian : 7/15/2021 2:24 pm : link
In comment 15305639 djm said:
Quote:
Eli was due big money. Fans are over thinking this one.


This is a matter of opinion, and in this instance I disagree with you and believe the outcomes show you to be wrong.

- three quarters into 2017 the staff understood he was slipping

- 2018 Manning threw the 2nd fewest TDs of any QB playing 16 games

- 2019 Manning was finally benched

- Retaining Manning for 18/19 cost the Giants an additional 32M that was not guaranteed or booked

- After Manning was benched in 2017, his record as a Giants was 6-16

- After Manning was benched, the Giants record has been 16-36

If you believe this was a good outcome, that's foolish in my view.
RE: No one is talking about Jones  
joeinpa : 7/15/2021 2:43 pm : link
In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:
Quote:
My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.


Terps is right on this one.
RE: .  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/15/2021 3:31 pm : link
In comment 15305665 Go Terps said:
Quote:


And I'm wondering if I'll be getting any apologies when the Giants move on from Jones after this year or next. I doubt it.


Just as I wonder if you'll be issuing any -- you are soo wrong about this -- and desperate to be right. It's pathetic
RE: RE: No one is talking about Jones  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/15/2021 3:40 pm : link
In comment 15305713 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:


Quote:


My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.



Terps is right on this one.


I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.

Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure
apologies?  
djm : 7/15/2021 3:41 pm : link
uh no, i won't say sorry if Jones sucks. Cmond dude. Don't act like you're always right. Not one person here even acknowledges that I nailed this defense after the 2020 season ended. All I hear is how wrong I am all the time. You will be fine.


I've long said it. I don't care if Jones is terrible, you don't give up on a QB after 20 games unless the evidence is beyond damning. And when a new staff comes in (Judge) and proclaims that Jones is worth the squeeze, it's mindful to understand why they are giving Jones 2021.

we've also acknowledged 1000 times now  
djm : 7/15/2021 3:49 pm : link
that terps was correct in liking JAckson. So was I? Where is the parade? No one cares. No one should care. I liked Jackson coming out. Who cares. I liked Mayfield too. Lately, I think Mayfield is merely OK but he has a chance to grow into something better because careers aren't made in one or two seasons.

I liked the NYG defense more than most heading into 2020. I predicted that the Giants would have a very busy and exciting off-season despite the cap worries around here. I also defended Dave Brown for a year or so. I defended Eli. I said Julius Randle would shine under Thibs. Also said Allan Houston was worth the re-sign, prior to the injuries. Win some. Lose some. I can take being called wrong. I just know I am not out of touch with this franchise. No one follows them more intently than I do. And I believe fully that the Giants know more about Jones than the fans do and that knowledge in Jones goes a long way. It aint all stats.

Whatever, it's so rehashed now it isn't even funny anymore. Giants had a bad decade. We all know it. Things look like they are trending upward now and the last 2 years or so appear to be helping that cause. Keep the hope alive.
weird thing is  
djm : 7/15/2021 3:52 pm : link
if Jones is OK or worse, the Giants might very well be bailed out by a very shiny and prolific vet QB in 2022. Guys like Wilson, Rodgers and others might very well be available.

Could be similar to the post Dave Brown years when the Giants went the vet QB route in Collins. With that said, gun to my head, I think Jones is the QB in 2022.
RE: RE: RE: No one is talking about Jones  
Jimmy Googs : 7/15/2021 4:54 pm : link
In comment 15305742 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 15305713 joeinpa said:


Quote:


In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:


Quote:


My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.



Terps is right on this one.



I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.

Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure


Is that controversial to suggest that if the Giants had moved on from Eli earlier that they would have potentially taken opportunities to draft a new franchise QB in 2017 or 2018 with more intent? We don't know how serious they evaluated guys in those drafts, nor do we know how they would have ranked those guys so can stop referring to how BBI was looking at them too.

And Eli was showing more than enough warts as the 2016 season went along to suggest concerns. Pointing to the occasional strong quarter or half in a game (like the wildcard game vs Packers in Jan 2017) shouldn't just displace the declining trends. In my view.
RE: RE: RE: No one is talking about Jones  
joeinpa : 7/15/2021 8:56 pm : link
In comment 15305742 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 15305713 joeinpa said:


Quote:


In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:


Quote:


My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.



Terps is right on this one.



I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.

Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure


He s absolutely right. The Giants passed on quarterbacks that turned out to be pretty good. That s just a fact.
The Giants could have still gotten Herbert..  
Sean : 7/15/2021 9:29 pm : link
if they didn’t draft Jones in 2019. The issue to me is more over drafting QB in 2019 as opposed to keeping Eli. Starting Eli in 2019 would have still put the Giants in a position to draft a QB in 2020.

We all felt the same way - 2020 was the year to draft a QB after they didn’t go QB in 2018.
RE: The Giants could have still gotten Herbert..  
Go Terps : 7/15/2021 9:51 pm : link
In comment 15305942 Sean said:
Quote:
if they didn’t draft Jones in 2019. The issue to me is more over drafting QB in 2019 as opposed to keeping Eli. Starting Eli in 2019 would have still put the Giants in a position to draft a QB in 2020.

We all felt the same way - 2020 was the year to draft a QB after they didn’t go QB in 2018.


That would have been much smarter.
TC's farewell press conference (2015)  
Lines of Scrimmage : 7/16/2021 8:54 am : link
gives a good indication of where Eli was. He said something like he had another year of two which probably was pretty accurate.

The issue was more the team around him than Eli. He needed a 2005-2008 type team around him and he could have managed things with a offense like 2008. It just was not feasible. For those still stubborn and short sighted about the mandate when DG came in go back and look at all the damage control Mara was trying to do after he was benched. There was outrage across the board (former Giant greats, fans, media, etc.) and it highlighted how poor the talent acquisition had been. No way Mara was doubling down and then dumping Eli.

For these other QB's always mentioned they could have had; well there is much more to see moving forward. Jones may or may not be the answer (I'm skeptical) but these other QB's still have a lot more to show imo (playoffs, SB's, etc.).
RE: RE: seems so ironic and funny to me  
djm : 7/16/2021 9:19 am : link
In comment 15305680 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
In comment 15305632 djm said:


Quote:


that the 2 best QBs in franchise history, one of them still so fresh in our memories, were both virtually on the chopping block, both here and just about everywhere, by year 3. Terps I know you loved Eli and probably defended him in 2007, but dude....YEAR 3! Astonishing the lack of patience and perspective you've displayed with Jones. I say that respectfully because I know you know the NFL and this franchise as well as anyone. Just bizarre.

Whatever, I was told I get owned by you all the time in these debates, but I don't see it that way. And this one is far from over. I've been right a lot and wrong a lot. I own my mistakes or losses and I think I am right more than I am wrong. Jones is a tough one, but I don't fault the Giants at all for sticking with him this coming year.



I sincerely doubt you'll see the kind of patience with QBs going forward as was seen in the past. Everyone acts like three years isn't enough time, and by the old paradigm you're right, but three years is likely going to be the amount of time any QB is given to be "the guy" before they're sent packing.



Right. But it hasn't been 3 years yet. We're entering that 3rd year now.

So glad Terps posted more stats. We needed that!
No mandate.  
Jimmy Googs : 7/16/2021 9:25 am : link
Yes, of course Mara wanted Eli kept. But he wanted his new GM and Coach to come to that decision on their own after analyzing his play, or put up rational why to move on. And Mara has publicly stated so.

It just so happened for Mara that his new ding-dong GM came to the very same decision.
Jones played his 2nd season in 2020  
djm : 7/16/2021 9:33 am : link
and his second season for a new staff. Over the course of 2020 Jones showed improvements. Simply put, he played better over his final 8 or so games. He also played on a team with gaping holes all over the offense.

HE's getting a 2nd year because the staff saw enough in him to believe he's a good starting QB. If you watch those final 8 games, you too would see improvements. Giants went 5-3. Offense scored more points. Jones was a better QB. He was more decisive and less error prone. The injury sucked.

The staff isn't sticking with Jones just to piss you off or make Mara happy. Jones is the best option on this team right now. If Jones doesn't progress or win games in 2021, the Giants will likely explore finding another QB.



RE: No mandate.  
djm : 7/16/2021 9:38 am : link
In comment 15306056 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Yes, of course Mara wanted Eli kept. But he wanted his new GM and Coach to come to that decision on their own after analyzing his play, or put up rational why to move on. And Mara has publicly stated so.

It just so happened for Mara that his new ding-dong GM came to the very same decision.


Maybe if the 2018 Giants actually played some defense that team doesn't go 5-11 or whatever they finished at. And maybe then fans don't go right after Eli as the low hanging fruit of all NYG's problems, like they did in 2014 and 2015.

Giants scored 385 points in 2018. Not bad. Certainly not great but if that team plays enough defense perhaps things end differently.

We're still hyper focused on Eli and the offense yet the last decade has seen this team sucks balls for one simple reason: the defense has flat out sucked. 2015 they make the playoffs with an average defense. 2016 they did make the playoffs thanks to a good D. If the same defense from 2016 shows up in 2018, they win the east or make the playoffs as a WC.

It wasn't all Eli. How can we not see that?
week 5 2018  
djm : 7/16/2021 9:44 am : link
team is 1-3. Season is still very much alive. They score 31 pts at Carolina. They lose. Instead of being 2-3 the season is virtually over at 1-4.

Losi9ng back to back games in december despite scoring 27 and 25 points, respectively, that's 8 wins right there.

Seasons change on a dime. One bad loss or one big win can and will make all the difference. That defense that won the day in 2016 had a short shelf life. Maybe if that defense played more like the Steelers D year in and year out, we aren't having this same convo. Every year the Steelers D shows up. Not NYG. Hopefully that changes.
I guess  
djm : 7/16/2021 9:54 am : link
I just feel like it's so easy and convenient to go after Eli or the decision to keep him when there were so many other issues with that Giants team from 17-18. Of course hindsight tells us Eli should have just walked away after 2016. Shit we can play that game for every team. We can play the what if draft game too.

The Giants were fucked so many different ways once they tried transitioning from Coughlin you can't even list them all here in one post. I can try though. They had a clown at HC. A stubborn GM in Reese with little to no synergy with said clown show coaching staff. An older QB who couldn't stem the tide of shit about to overrun the franchise. A front running house of cards defense that was highly paid and not easily purgeable, at least not overnight. And the team's best player, Beckham, was about to suffer back to back injuries.

The only stable element about that team was Eli. So he made a lot money. He wasn't the problem. I find it curious that so many think a young QB not named Jones would just walk in here and cover up all the warts that Eli couldn't cover up. I question how toxic or comfy that NYG franchise was from 17-19. We've seen good QBs shit the bed on bad teams before only to go elsewhere and flourish. Not sure anything is growing here under Shurmur and it sure as hell wasn't under McAdoo.

All in the past now.
Don't go off on tangents. Nobody is putting the blame of the  
Jimmy Googs : 7/16/2021 9:58 am : link
NYG solely on Eli's doorstep. The team/roster/coaching wasn't very good as we are all aware, and his game had declined enough that he was going to overcome it. And he wasn't really going to be part of the longer term solution anymore either.

The front office made their decisions to stick with him, keep paying him and keep playing him.

And it didn't help anything.
***  
Jimmy Googs : 7/16/2021 10:00 am : link
he wasn't going to overcome it
RE: RE: RE: RE: No one is talking about Jones  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/16/2021 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15305915 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 15305742 gidiefor said:


Quote:


In comment 15305713 joeinpa said:


Quote:


In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:


Quote:


My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.



Terps is right on this one.



I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.

Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure



He s absolutely right. The Giants passed on quarterbacks that turned out to be pretty good. That s just a fact.


So did 30 other teams -- if the QB doesn't have the value on your draft board -- you don't pick him - that doesn't mean you missed them -- that means that your evaluations weren't correct, or even that that particular athlete wasn't a fit with your program.

They also passed on DEs, ERs, RBs, WRs, Ols, LBs, CBs, SSs that were pretty good -- so I don't understand how this is relevant or meaningful -- Sticking with Eli isn't the issue -- the issue is the valuations you place on players in the draft
djm  
Go Terps : 7/16/2021 12:57 pm : link
You don't think Jones's college production is relevant in a discussion on why the Giants drafted him?
RE: djm  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/16/2021 1:05 pm : link
In comment 15306278 Go Terps said:
Quote:
You don't think Jones's college production is relevant in a discussion on why the Giants drafted him?


Considering you've said that we've passed on Allen - isn't that a completely contradictory statement? Allen's college production didn't keep you from saying he's the better choice (in retrospect of course).
Josh Allen has immense physical talent  
Go Terps : 7/16/2021 1:25 pm : link
Jones does not. Jones was drafted on the pretense that he was well coached, refined, polished, and NFL ready. That hasn't borne out to be the case.

And again I'll point to Jones's poor collegiate production relative to other drafted quarterbacks in the past decade. So why did the Giants draft him? Was it because Accorsi saw some Bert Jones in him when he lost his last home game 59-7 to Wake Forest?
RE: Josh Allen has immense physical talent  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/16/2021 1:43 pm : link
In comment 15306305 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Jones does not. Jones was drafted on the pretense that he was well coached, refined, polished, and NFL ready. That hasn't borne out to be the case.

And again I'll point to Jones's poor collegiate production relative to other drafted quarterbacks in the past decade. So why did the Giants draft him? Was it because Accorsi saw some Bert Jones in him when he lost his last home game 59-7 to Wake Forest?


This outstanding talent evaluation of a QB with less than 2 years in the NFL trenches is right on par with your most excellent cites using ESPN as your authority -- call Jordan Raanan right away -- they need more panic stricken chicken little prognosticators at ESPN now -- it sells clicks and you'll fit right in
RE: RE: Josh Allen has immense physical talent  
christian : 7/16/2021 1:50 pm : link
In comment 15306319 gidiefor said:
Quote:
This outstanding talent evaluation of a QB with less than 2 years in the NFL trenches is right on par with your most excellent cites using ESPN as your authority -- call Jordan Raanan right away -- they need more panic stricken chicken little prognosticators at ESPN now -- it sells clicks and you'll fit right in


That's an irrelevant and disingenuous response.

Terps is asking a question about his college production. Why can't you just answer that?
Learning from the past is a good thing.  
Klaatu : 7/16/2021 1:54 pm : link
Dwelling on the past is just tedious.
RE: Learning from the past is a good thing.  
christian : 7/16/2021 2:02 pm : link
In comment 15306332 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Dwelling on the past is just tedious.


Great observation. I posted it above, the most interesting next development will be if the current offensive thesis doesn't produce this year (Jones/Barkley especially) -- will the Giants:

A) Hold onto or invest further these fan favorite, high picks
B) Surgically, and unsentimentally reset
RE: RE: Learning from the past is a good thing.  
Go Terps : 7/16/2021 2:07 pm : link
In comment 15306335 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15306332 Klaatu said:


Quote:


Dwelling on the past is just tedious.



Great observation. I posted it above, the most interesting next development will be if the current offensive thesis doesn't produce this year (Jones/Barkley especially) -- will the Giants:

A) Hold onto or invest further these fan favorite, high picks
B) Surgically, and unsentimentally reset


Yup. That's 2021 in a nutshell.
RE: Josh Allen has immense physical talent  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/16/2021 4:22 pm : link
In comment 15306305 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Jones does not. Jones was drafted on the pretense that he was well coached, refined, polished, and NFL ready. That hasn't borne out to be the case.

And again I'll point to Jones's poor collegiate production relative to other drafted quarterbacks in the past decade. So why did the Giants draft him? Was it because Accorsi saw some Bert Jones in him when he lost his last home game 59-7 to Wake Forest?


Another aspect you continually downplay is Jones talent. The guy ran faster than any QB in something like 10 years. You don't do that with little talent. And again with the comparison to Allen. His college production was subpar. And he had a far worse completion rate as Jones, to go along with less stats in several categories. In the MWC vs the ACC.
Jones can definitely run  
Go Terps : 7/16/2021 6:08 pm : link
It's the best thing about his game. So how does hiring Jason Garrett (run the ball, throw deep off play action) take advantage of that? You want to tell me we're going to use Jones like he's Cam Newton, I can get behind that. Do you see that happening?
Jones is athletic?  
trueblueinpw : 7/16/2021 7:04 pm : link
I see here a lot that Jones is some kind of an athlete and that he should run more. I know he’s fast, once he gets going, on a straight away. But he doesn’t seem athletic at all to me in football games. If anything he seems like he has timing and reaction problems. And he’s hardly proven to be durable and he’s not at all physically punishing like Cam was in his early days. If Jones is some kind of gifted athlete I haven’t seen it while he’s been playing for the Giants.
Jones can run and is pretty athletic (sans the stumble vs Philly)  
Jimmy Googs : 7/16/2021 7:33 pm : link
but with that comes with the obvious increased risk of getting hurt.

The Giants were in position for a playoff spot last year in the mighty NFCE, and Jones’ injury while running certainly played a major part in not being able to reach that goal.

Not suggesting Giants shouldn’t take advantage of that part of Jones’ makeup but with that comes missed games. So you better have a coaching staff and offense that can adapt and a decent backup QB to hold down the fort. Do we?
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