Ownership has taken a lot of heat for the state of the team the past several years, and for good reason. The final years of Eli's career were wasted by bad coaching hires and poor decision making with a reboot that came too late (Reese was kept too long, 2018 was a bad year for the FO on so many levels, etc.)
One of the big criticisms was a tired old thinking trying to recreate past victories falling back into what worked in the past. So now we are here now and although the team has yet to prove something, there is a much different feel about this team and the direction they are headed. A lot of that stems form what Joe Judge is building, which is a complete overhaul of the football program. Judge himself was an outside hire, not a stay within your confort zone hire. They could have selected a retread like they did in Dallas or gone the X's and Os coordinator route to groom the young QB like they did with Shurmur or run the defense. They didn't. They took a shot on a guy on the basis of the qualities he has as a leader, his vision, attention to detail, and ability to communicate, and trusted him with the massive responsibility for rebuilding the program. Smartly, the first thing he did was overhaul the exceedingly deficient coaching staff and his abilities of persuasion and as a leader allowed him to sell several former head coaches far his senior to come on board. That in itself tells you a lot about the man they hired.
This may not work out for the team. We all know there are so many things that can go wrong, many being circumstantial. But in my view, I feel it is safe to say, whether it works out or not, though I am assuming it will, ownership deserves a bit of credit here for finally getting this one right. Particularly with respect to having the courage to step outside of their comfort zone, set aside media skepticism and take a chance on a relatively unknown candidate who did't have a lot of pins on his resume to CYA when he fails. That's the sort of thinking we need from ownership and has been very much lacking ---up until this point. As much as Mara and co. deserve the criticism that has been thrown their way the past few years, they also deserve a lot of credit for the optimism that's growing in the building.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
That’s an important point.The Maras are just Super Fans probably a little less flawed than the rest of us because they have more inside information. They make mistakes in judgement like the rest of us. They are invested and their mistakes carry greater consequences. They have always tried to win. No one has tried to “tank” a game or a season to get a higher draft pick or gain some economic advantage because the Maras wouldn’t allow it. They have given up some privileges and advantages the Giants could have had for the benefit of the whole league but that’s about all you can really criticize them for.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
Did you accidentally leave out the word "don't" from your opening sentence?
If so, why do you not think that they are nice people?
How well do you know them?
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
Did you leave out the word "don't" from your opening statement?
How well do, you knoiw the Maras?
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
Have to disagree on this point: It’s not the same thing over and over again. When they hired Judge, we now have possibly 4 OL starting, 3 who were drafted and Gates. So it’s NOT the same thing over and over again. They addressed it.
Now whether or not they prove to be our future remains to be seen, but it’s not an over and over again scenario, imo
What came was a series of half measures.
1) Forcing Macadoo onto Coughlin
2) Firing Coughlin but leaving Reese
3) Promoting Macadoo
4) Finally cleaning out Reese and Macadoo, hiring Shurmur.
5) By this time - Eli was cooked. Shurmur was not a good coach. But at the same time, I think it's clear he had a "Win with Eli" mandate from above whether he wanted to start him or not. Not in a position to succeed.
What came was a series of half measures.
1) Forcing Macadoo onto Coughlin
2) Firing Coughlin but leaving Reese
3) Promoting Macadoo
4) Finally cleaning out Reese and Macadoo, hiring Shurmur.
5) By this time - Eli was cooked. Shurmur was not a good coach. But at the same time, I think it's clear he had a "Win with Eli" mandate from above whether he wanted to start him or not. Not in a position to succeed.
It was NOT unreasonable to believe a still healthy Eli with his arm quite sound, could do quite well under Shurmur. After all, look what he did with Keenum. I was wrong about Shurmur and by extension, probably about Eli, esp. with that OL.
I was typing fast--sorry
Cool. Just like Parcells, Fassel and Coughlin.
That blind squirrel must have some great other sense!
I mean if it doesn't work out, by definition it means they didn't get this one right. All of this gloating about Judge and Mara should hold off until they at least have a winning season.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
What are you talking about.. they haven’t addressed the o-line ? They have a 1st, 2nd and 3rd all drafted in the past 4 years starting this year.. a Starting center in his 4th that looks to be an answer and then a 5th guard who is unproven.. the plan may not work but they have clearly addressed the o-line with a significant investment
I don’t think that’s fair. The Giants were on an island with Judge.
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and I think we tend to give them too much credit when things are good and too much blame when things are bad. Generally, they hire football people to run the football operations (Chris asides), give them some latitude to succeed or fail and go from there.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
What are you talking about.. they haven’t addressed the o-line ? They have a 1st, 2nd and 3rd all drafted in the past 4 years starting this year.. a Starting center in his 4th that looks to be an answer and then a 5th guard who is unproven.. the plan may not work but they have clearly addressed the o-line with a significant investment
Really because who is our right guard and right tackle this year? Maybe you would like it better if I said, adequately addressed our offensive line. Most experts thing our O-line will be in the bottom ten of the year. So, yeah, whether you want to give them credit for dumping resources into it "over the last four years" which in football is not a short time period, go for it. I am only interested in what this thread was discussing, which was are we headed in the right direction and my point was we have tried to sure up Offensive Line failures in the past with skill position talent and that hasn't worked and I do not believe it will work this time if our Line is not up to it.
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and I think we tend to give them too much credit when things are good and too much blame when things are bad. Generally, they hire football people to run the football operations (Chris asides), give them some latitude to succeed or fail and go from there.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
Have to disagree on this point: It’s not the same thing over and over again. When they hired Judge, we now have possibly 4 OL starting, 3 who were drafted and Gates. So it’s NOT the same thing over and over again. They addressed it.
Now whether or not they prove to be our future remains to be seen, but it’s not an over and over again scenario, imo
++
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and I think we tend to give them too much credit when things are good and too much blame when things are bad. Generally, they hire football people to run the football operations (Chris asides), give them some latitude to succeed or fail and go from there.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
Have to disagree on this point: It’s not the same thing over and over again. When they hired Judge, we now have possibly 4 OL starting, 3 who were drafted and Gates. So it’s NOT the same thing over and over again. They addressed it.
Now whether or not they prove to be our future remains to be seen, but it’s not an over and over again scenario, imo
I think we have more questions than answers on our offensive line at this point. Thomas had a mediocre rookie year, he improved as the year went on and we will see if he improves more but he isn't guaranteed. Its not like LG is a real answer yet in Shane Lemieux. Zach Fulton at RG is not an upgrade from last season. RT I have no idea what is going to happen there. So, yeah, I am not feeling that great about our offensive line. In fact, while some may believe, as I said we may coach them up, there is nothing to suggest our OL issues in the passing game will be resolved and help our skill position players flourish.
Things appeared stable coming off 2016, and one could make a case that the rebuild of 13-15 wasn't too long or too bad, but then it went shit show splat and we embarked on an even darker and shittier period 2017-2020. 2020 might be one of those productive 6-10 NYG seasons we have come to appreciate, but 2021 needs to kick ass before we can conclude anything.
I pray we win in 2021. It's such a big year for this franchise. So many storylines and players in the spotlight. It could be a really fun year. It could also be a devastatingly painful one, but I see good times ahead, or at the very least not terrible times ahead.
Mara and Tisch did a bad job with the Coughlin/Reese transition. McAdoo really set them back. Let's just hope we are past that mess and better times are to come. If not, the 70s are calling...
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
The Giants were pretty stuck once the ashes of 2017 were blowing around. They could only turn the roster inside out so much, and by the end of 18 they had pretty much done just that. The Giants didn't really blow it up until late 18 early 19. And by then it was a full blown nuke from orbit type rebuild. No surprise they weren't any good from 19 into first half of 2020. The team was composed of mostly very young players, including Jones.
2018 was a waste but they really didn't waste that much time if you think about it. Once DG came in, it took him one full year to all but purge the roster save for a few more in early 2020. Now we hope to see it bear fruit.
It sure looks like a 2005 type season heading into 2021, some differences, but there are a lot of similarities from a roster building POV.
They made a series of bad decisions from 2013-2019. They did a bad job, and the fans have every right to be disappointed.
Doesn’t make them bad people, or preclude them from doing well in the future. Everything isn’t zero sum.
They did well in the past, that doesn’t absolve them from responsibility for the bad job they did they the last several years. It’s been a terrible stretch of football and starts at the top.
But that bad stretch doesn’t mean they can’t turn it around. It looks promising they did by hiring Judge.
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
That sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong? And there's usually a faction going one way and one going the other.
If we hired the right HC in 2016, Eli's situation looks a lot different today. If we cut Eli in 2016 and stuck with McAdoo, they still shit the bed and have this stretch of bad play UNLESS they stepped in shit and drafted some can't miss QB 2017-2019. Even then, the team was about to be nuked and rebuilt, not sure any QB is coming in here and fixing shit on his own.
It's done. New team new QB better players.
Good post. Although need to see "if" something good or grows from what occurred in 19-20...
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In comment 15304919 Essex said:
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and I think we tend to give them too much credit when things are good and too much blame when things are bad. Generally, they hire football people to run the football operations (Chris asides), give them some latitude to succeed or fail and go from there.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
What are you talking about.. they haven’t addressed the o-line ? They have a 1st, 2nd and 3rd all drafted in the past 4 years starting this year.. a Starting center in his 4th that looks to be an answer and then a 5th guard who is unproven.. the plan may not work but they have clearly addressed the o-line with a significant investment
Really because who is our right guard and right tackle this year? Maybe you would like it better if I said, adequately addressed our offensive line. Most experts thing our O-line will be in the bottom ten of the year. So, yeah, whether you want to give them credit for dumping resources into it "over the last four years" which in football is not a short time period, go for it. I am only interested in what this thread was discussing, which was are we headed in the right direction and my point was we have tried to sure up Offensive Line failures in the past with skill position talent and that hasn't worked and I do not believe it will work this time if our Line is not up to it.
You literally stated that they were not building through the offensive line. That they were focusing on skilled players.. I simply pointed out that is not the case.. they are building the offensive line.. weather it will be successful or not is a whole other matter. Solder or Peart (3rd pick last year) will the RT and Shane, the most from oregan who’s last name I can’t spell of the top of my head will be the LG, Hernandez will be the RG
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In comment 15305028 joeinpa said:
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
That sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong? And there's usually a faction going one way and one going the other.
If we hired the right HC in 2016, Eli's situation looks a lot different today. If we cut Eli in 2016 and stuck with McAdoo, they still shit the bed and have this stretch of bad play UNLESS they stepped in shit and drafted some can't miss QB 2017-2019. Even then, the team was about to be nuked and rebuilt, not sure any QB is coming in here and fixing shit on his own.
It's done. New team new QB better players.
You want to please your fan base...then make good player moves with a sound decision-making process consistently backing it up. That will help maintain the quality of play on the field every season.
Whether those moves are in agreement with most of the fan base or not should be basically meaningless in the overall process...
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from a career aesthetics and even roster building POV, Eli should have retired after 2016 the minute the clock reached 00 in that GB playoff game. No more losing. No wasted time in developing a new QB, etc. I won't go back and play the what if draft game, I still think Barkley can be an amazing player and one that lifts this team to good play, but at the very least we'd have been better off watching Eli ride off into the sunset with a winning lifetime % and fresh off a playoff season. 2017-2018 was such a bummer. Can live with 2019 and 2020, but those two years did no good for anyone. Nothing really grew from it, unlike 19-20.
Good post. Although need to see "if" something good or grows from what occurred in 19-20...
Yep true. We do know for a fact that 17-28 sucked the high hard one and other than maybe a few good young emerging players that span was just a total waste of painful suffering. Yes we need to see 2021 and beyond before we feel good about anything.
We also don't know whether the organization learned anything from that process. They exercised Barkley's fifth-year option, and remain committed to Jones for at least another year. Are they building a strong core, or continuing to throw good money after bad by doubling down on mistakes? Judge showed promise in Year One. If the team continues to fail, how many losing seasons does he get? Sticking with Parcells after a 3-12-1 debut worked out. At some point, though, the guy has to win, not just say all the right things.
The Giants have been mostly awful for nine years. They remained mostly awful last year, especially when playing outside their pathetic division. The roster and staff look better on paper. We'll see.
I like what I am seeing from Judge. Jones will be the biggest factor whether he sees more success sooner or later (having to find another QB). I think ownership is prepared to be patient with him but I am sure some bumps in the road will be part of the journey with him.
The one thing he told me was that, unofficially, the Mara's were committed to have at least one legitimate shot at a Super Bowl run every decade. Meaning, they were willing to "break the bank" and spend big and trade assests when they got a core they thought had a chance to put over the top.
Obviously, the goal is to win every year. But, realistically, teams success runs in cycles (other than NE), so I found that interesting.
I got to meet GS once in the early 90s. I stayed at a hotel he owned in Tampa for an engineering conference and met him and Sticks at breakfast in the restaurant there. Very approachable and friendly. Joked around for a few minutes.
Totally changed my mind about him after that.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
The Giants have spent a TON of resources on the offensive line. The fact that to this point it hasn't worked out doesn't mean they haven't tried... as you seem to believe...
So far Joe Judge is everything I could hope for as NYG HC. So far is one year but I'm optimistic he's going to have a long successful run.
I don’t know the good and bad of all the various NFL owners. I know Philthy fans are trash but isn't Lurie pretty solid? Obviously the WFT owner is among the worst. We all love to hate on the Boys but Steven and Jerah aren’t what I would consider to be bad owners. The Jets owner is the bottom of the barrel.
Generally, I think we got it pretty darn good with Mara Tisch. We might not be winning lately with them but at least they have integrity and for sure Mara and Tisch want what’s best for the fans and they want to win. So, yeah they’re pretty good in my book.
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
It tells us that the fan base is often wrong. It tells us Mara is often in tune with what they want, case in pt, Mara reinserting Eli after he was benched.
It also brings into question the legitimacy of looking back with a critical eye were you in favor of moving forward with Eli.
For the record I was ready to move on in 2017.
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In comment 15305028 joeinpa said:
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
It tells us that the fan base is often wrong. It tells us Mara is often in tune with what they want, case in pt, Mara reinserting Eli after he was benched.
It also brings into question the legitimacy of looking back with a critical eye were you in favor of moving forward with Eli.
For the record I was ready to move on in 2017.
Keeping in tune with the fans is fine. Making them a part of your decision-making process is a mistake...
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In comment 15305042 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15305028 joeinpa said:
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
It tells us that the fan base is often wrong. It tells us Mara is often in tune with what they want, case in pt, Mara reinserting Eli after he was benched.
It also brings into question the legitimacy of looking back with a critical eye were you in favor of moving forward with Eli.
For the record I was ready to move on in 2017.
Keeping in tune with the fans is fine. Making them a part of your decision-making process is a mistake...
Not arguing that pt.
Agree 100%. That means something to me. I'm a sucker when it comes to that.
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as a fan, I’m glad that he only played his career as a Giant. I get that some fans don’t care if he put on a Jaguar helmet, but I’m glad he didn’t.
Agree 100%. That means something to me. I'm a sucker when it comes to that.
IMO sentimentality can hold teams back. It happened with Peter Chiarelli and the Bruins after their Cup win, it's currently happening with the Yankees and Gardner, and it happened with the Giants and Eli.
Felt the same way about Simms, so totally get it.
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I think it will simply be a case of our blind squirrel of an onwer finally finding a nut.
Cool. Just like Parcells, Fassel and Coughlin.
That blind squirrel must have some great other sense!
amazing the lengths people will go to defending Giant ownership. Now we have John Mara responsible for every good hire going back 40 years....lol. WTF is this bullshit?
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In comment 15305244 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15305042 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15305028 joeinpa said:
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
It tells us that the fan base is often wrong. It tells us Mara is often in tune with what they want, case in pt, Mara reinserting Eli after he was benched.
It also brings into question the legitimacy of looking back with a critical eye were you in favor of moving forward with Eli.
For the record I was ready to move on in 2017.
Keeping in tune with the fans is fine. Making them a part of your decision-making process is a mistake...
Not arguing that pt.
Then what was your point in the first post? Seemed to be about the fans.
- Manning got his ass kicked on the field, and lost a bunch of games
- The Giants made significant free agent investment geared toward Manning that failed in the immediate term
- The Giants didn't start the clock on the patient process of integrating a new starting QB (we're learning it takes at least 3 years)
I'm much more comfortable with the thesis that Mara and Gettleman were telling the truth, and believed Manning was still a good QB.
They were wrong, and in my view it was clear as day he was shot.
The alternative, that the motivation was to preserve Manning's legacy and sentimentality is abhorrent.
ESPN this week released the results of a recent poll of coaches, players, and executives ranking the top ten QBs in the NFL. 3 of them (Allen, Jackson, and Herbert) could have been drafted by the Giants without so much as a trade up. That's part of the legacy of keeping Eli too long.
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In comment 15305320 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15305244 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15305042 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15305028 joeinpa said:
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
It tells us that the fan base is often wrong. It tells us Mara is often in tune with what they want, case in pt, Mara reinserting Eli after he was benched.
It also brings into question the legitimacy of looking back with a critical eye were you in favor of moving forward with Eli.
For the record I was ready to move on in 2017.
Keeping in tune with the fans is fine. Making them a part of your decision-making process is a mistake...
Not arguing that pt.
Then what was your point in the first post? Seemed to be about the fans.
Correct, thought the pt was clear, guess not, my bad.
Yes - and as we know
ESPN always gets it right, Don't they!
Their reporting of other's opinions is an outstanding authority
Dave Gettleman's competition isn't ESPN -- it's Beane, De Costa, Telesco etc.
Being nominally better than WFT and the Jets is a low bar, no?
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.
Yes - and as we know
ESPN always gets it right, Don't they!
Their reporting of other's opinions is an outstanding authority
I don't understand. Are you saying ESPN can't accurately relay the findings of their poll, or that they're being disingenuous in some way?
It's a poll of people in the league...
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In comment 15305564 Go Terps said:
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.
Yes - and as we know
ESPN always gets it right, Don't they!
Their reporting of other's opinions is an outstanding authority
I don't understand. Are you saying ESPN can't accurately relay the findings of their poll, or that they're being disingenuous in some way?
It's a poll of people in the league...
which people? Unidentified ghosts? Leo Riddick? He rated Haskens as top talent. A fired GM or 2? any names at all that we can rest our hats on as credible? Or when ESPN says categories of sources you just buy them as exemplary because they fit your narrative? Stooping pretty low today.
Lamar Jackson may have in fact peaked as an NFL player. I like him too. Would have loved to see NYG draft him, but I am a little leery of this guy's long term NFL prognosis. HE's an athlete first. Passer second, no matter what the stats might say. Watch him play. He gets by on INSANDE athletic abilities and plays for a great HC. Again, he deserves everything he's gotten thus far, but I think Jackson needs to adjust or the NFL will slowly render him less and less prolific.
NEither here or there. Jackson love I can take. This non stop slobber fest over Herbet makes me nuts.
Thanks for the reminder about ELi's end of career failures though. We needed that.
lol. Who the fuck cares what they say.
Can we finally wake the fuck up and realize that when someone real isn't quoted or named as a legit source, it's bullshit? "League execs" ---yeah ok. And even if they are real they are wrong too. Teams passed on Lamar Jackson so now these same people are being quoted in an article about which QBs rule the league? Who cares?
Also, write it on the chalkboard 1000 times so it sinks in:
2018 is over and done with.
2018 is over and done with.
2018 is over and done with.
2018 is over and done with.
2018 is over and done with.
Mahomes
Rodgers
Brady
Wilson
Allen
Stafford
Prescott
Jackson
Herbert
Murray
That's all. The point about the Giants being in position to draft three of those guys and not doing it is mine, not ESPN's. I still don't know what the problem is here.
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In comment 15305564 Go Terps said:
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Yes - and as we know
ESPN always gets it right, Don't they!
Their reporting of other's opinions is an outstanding authority
I don't understand. Are you saying ESPN can't accurately relay the findings of their poll, or that they're being disingenuous in some way?
It's a poll of people in the league...
Yes I am saying that. And who cares? We know the NFL likes Justin Herbert and Jackson and Allen. 2 of those guys were playing into January 2021. Of course they are good QBs.
Can we go back and talk about the good picks the Giants made lately and conjure up the bad players we didn't draft? Haskins? Even Josh Allen the edge player had a quiet 2020.
This team could be on the brink of good sustained play. Big year coming up.
Mahomes
Rodgers
Brady
Wilson
Allen
Stafford
Prescott
Jackson
Herbert
Murray
That's all. The point about the Giants being in position to draft three of those guys and not doing it is mine, not ESPN's. I still don't know what the problem is here.
We know this, Terps. You say so just about every other post. It's not a revelation. It's not even a finished slam dunk debate yet, because, well, Jones is still not even in his 3rd year and this staff believes in him. Jones is the QB. Accept it already.
The staff likes Jones because the staff knows things you and I do not know. They don't only look at stats. They look at growth. Leadership. Line calls and changes/audibles. They take talent into account, both individually and surrounding. They look at progressions and improvements made throughout (last) the season. You apparently do not.
Whatever, I was told I get owned by you all the time in these debates, but I don't see it that way. And this one is far from over. I've been right a lot and wrong a lot. I own my mistakes or losses and I think I am right more than I am wrong. Jones is a tough one, but I don't fault the Giants at all for sticking with him this coming year.
Many of the mistakes from 2018/2019 are off the books, but is the root cause?
I find reasons to be hopeful if I can. Don't see me losing any money betting on this team. I cannot go into every year with no hope. Aint wired that way. Sports are supposed to be a fun distraction.
Many of the mistakes from 2018/2019 are off the books, but is the root cause?
Eli was due big money. Fans are over thinking this one. They had a decent older QB still on the books and they had Barkley, a transcendent talent sitting there at pick 2. They were coming off the ugliest season in history and wanted to draft the best player.
Not everything is a conspiracy. The second Eli's play didn't elevate that 2018 team, the Giants drafted Jones. It didn't go on as long as some here insist upon. One year. YEs Eli probably should have just quit after 2016 but the team was built to win! Eli was coming off a decent stat year and won 11 games. They went all in for 2017, it went to shit, and 1 full year later they put into effect the plan to move on from ELi. We're talking one year here.
Did the Giants hesitate when Eli didn't look so good in 2019 anymore? No, they started Jones asap.
I really don't think the presence of Eli precluded the Giants from drafting a QB in 2018. The presence of BArkley did. Think about it. Eli in 2018 was probably better than he was in 2016 yet the team still drafted a QB in the 2019 draft.
If the Giants loved a QB at pick 2 in 18, they probably draft him. Why is this so hard to believe?
"The Giants were in position to take Allen, Jackson, Herbert without drafting up". Well fuck, they were in position to take Darnold, Rosen, Lock and Tua without trading up as well.
So what in the fuck does that mean? Not to mention that had they taken Allen or Jackson, drafting Herbert isn't really an option is it? Or once they drafted Jones, taking Herbert isn't really an option, is it?
I'll still be looking forward to see comments on Herbert going forward if SD doesn't win. Is crowing about his rookie season going to continue?
And Barkley was perfect. You can disagree with NYG's take, but that is how most in the NFL world saw things.
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My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.
I really don't think the presence of Eli precluded the Giants from drafting a QB in 2018. The presence of BArkley did. Think about it. Eli in 2018 was probably better than he was in 2016 yet the team still drafted a QB in the 2019 draft.
If the Giants loved a QB at pick 2 in 18, they probably draft him. Why is this so hard to believe?
So you think if Eli retires after 2017 they still draft Barkley? I find it hard to believe they could be that stupid.
I have a question for you...you say we have to wait 3 years to assess Jones. OK...so by that rationale shouldn't we only now be assessing the 2018 draft?
Why do we have to be patient with Jones, but let the Barkley pick go already?
Oh that's right...because both picks have borne out to be franchise altering mistakes and we're afraid to admit it.
Given their judgement at QB in 2018 and 2019 it's fair to assume they would have misplayed their considerable hand.
So you think if Eli retires after 2017 they still draft Barkley? I find it hard to believe they could be that stupid.
I have a question for you...you say we have to wait 3 years to assess Jones. OK...so by that rationale shouldn't we only now be assessing the 2018 draft?
Why do we have to be patient with Jones, but let the Barkley pick go already?
and there it is -- rip off the bandaid and that's what you get -- Bash the Jones pick -- hammer! hammer! hammer!
Oh that's right...because both picks have borne out to be franchise altering mistakes and we're afraid to admit it.
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And I'm wondering if I'll be getting any apologies when the Giants move on from Jones after this year or next. I doubt it.
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I'll still be looking forward to see comments on Herbert going forward if SD doesn't win. Is crowing about his rookie season going to continue?
And I'm wondering if I'll be getting any apologies when the Giants move on from Jones after this year or next. I doubt it.
Seeing that Jones had a very good rookie year and you treat him like he's been absolute dogshit, are you really looking for apologies or do you just want to say you were right?
2020
Whatever, I was told I get owned by you all the time in these debates, but I don't see it that way. And this one is far from over. I've been right a lot and wrong a lot. I own my mistakes or losses and I think I am right more than I am wrong. Jones is a tough one, but I don't fault the Giants at all for sticking with him this coming year.
I sincerely doubt you'll see the kind of patience with QBs going forward as was seen in the past. Everyone acts like three years isn't enough time, and by the old paradigm you're right, but three years is likely going to be the amount of time any QB is given to be "the guy" before they're sent packing.
Yes I am saying that. And who cares? We know the NFL likes Justin Herbert and Jackson and Allen. 2 of those guys were playing into January 2021. Of course they are good QBs.
Can we go back and talk about the good picks the Giants made lately and conjure up the bad players we didn't draft? Haskins? Even Josh Allen the edge player had a quiet 2020.
This team could be on the brink of good sustained play. Big year coming up.
What force is stopping you, or anybody else on this site, from talking about the good picks the Giants have made lately or bad ones avoided? Start a thread, or write a post in this one and have the conversation.
And Barkley was perfect. You can disagree with NYG's take, but that is how most in the NFL world saw things.
He was perfect?
I didn't know that, nor that most in the NFL knew it either.
This is a matter of opinion, and in this instance I disagree with you and believe the outcomes show you to be wrong.
- three quarters into 2017 the staff understood he was slipping
- 2018 Manning threw the 2nd fewest TDs of any QB playing 16 games
- 2019 Manning was finally benched
- Retaining Manning for 18/19 cost the Giants an additional 32M that was not guaranteed or booked
- After Manning was benched in 2017, his record as a Giants was 6-16
- After Manning was benched, the Giants record has been 16-36
If you believe this was a good outcome, that's foolish in my view.
Terps is right on this one.
And I'm wondering if I'll be getting any apologies when the Giants move on from Jones after this year or next. I doubt it.
Just as I wonder if you'll be issuing any -- you are soo wrong about this -- and desperate to be right. It's pathetic
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My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.
Terps is right on this one.
I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.
Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure
I've long said it. I don't care if Jones is terrible, you don't give up on a QB after 20 games unless the evidence is beyond damning. And when a new staff comes in (Judge) and proclaims that Jones is worth the squeeze, it's mindful to understand why they are giving Jones 2021.
I liked the NYG defense more than most heading into 2020. I predicted that the Giants would have a very busy and exciting off-season despite the cap worries around here. I also defended Dave Brown for a year or so. I defended Eli. I said Julius Randle would shine under Thibs. Also said Allan Houston was worth the re-sign, prior to the injuries. Win some. Lose some. I can take being called wrong. I just know I am not out of touch with this franchise. No one follows them more intently than I do. And I believe fully that the Giants know more about Jones than the fans do and that knowledge in Jones goes a long way. It aint all stats.
Whatever, it's so rehashed now it isn't even funny anymore. Giants had a bad decade. We all know it. Things look like they are trending upward now and the last 2 years or so appear to be helping that cause. Keep the hope alive.
Could be similar to the post Dave Brown years when the Giants went the vet QB route in Collins. With that said, gun to my head, I think Jones is the QB in 2022.
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In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:
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My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.
Terps is right on this one.
I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.
Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure
Is that controversial to suggest that if the Giants had moved on from Eli earlier that they would have potentially taken opportunities to draft a new franchise QB in 2017 or 2018 with more intent? We don't know how serious they evaluated guys in those drafts, nor do we know how they would have ranked those guys so can stop referring to how BBI was looking at them too.
And Eli was showing more than enough warts as the 2016 season went along to suggest concerns. Pointing to the occasional strong quarter or half in a game (like the wildcard game vs Packers in Jan 2017) shouldn't just displace the declining trends. In my view.
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In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:
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My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.
Terps is right on this one.
I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.
Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure
He s absolutely right. The Giants passed on quarterbacks that turned out to be pretty good. That s just a fact.
We all felt the same way - 2020 was the year to draft a QB after they didn’t go QB in 2018.
We all felt the same way - 2020 was the year to draft a QB after they didn’t go QB in 2018.
That would have been much smarter.
The issue was more the team around him than Eli. He needed a 2005-2008 type team around him and he could have managed things with a offense like 2008. It just was not feasible. For those still stubborn and short sighted about the mandate when DG came in go back and look at all the damage control Mara was trying to do after he was benched. There was outrage across the board (former Giant greats, fans, media, etc.) and it highlighted how poor the talent acquisition had been. No way Mara was doubling down and then dumping Eli.
For these other QB's always mentioned they could have had; well there is much more to see moving forward. Jones may or may not be the answer (I'm skeptical) but these other QB's still have a lot more to show imo (playoffs, SB's, etc.).
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that the 2 best QBs in franchise history, one of them still so fresh in our memories, were both virtually on the chopping block, both here and just about everywhere, by year 3. Terps I know you loved Eli and probably defended him in 2007, but dude....YEAR 3! Astonishing the lack of patience and perspective you've displayed with Jones. I say that respectfully because I know you know the NFL and this franchise as well as anyone. Just bizarre.
Whatever, I was told I get owned by you all the time in these debates, but I don't see it that way. And this one is far from over. I've been right a lot and wrong a lot. I own my mistakes or losses and I think I am right more than I am wrong. Jones is a tough one, but I don't fault the Giants at all for sticking with him this coming year.
I sincerely doubt you'll see the kind of patience with QBs going forward as was seen in the past. Everyone acts like three years isn't enough time, and by the old paradigm you're right, but three years is likely going to be the amount of time any QB is given to be "the guy" before they're sent packing.
Right. But it hasn't been 3 years yet. We're entering that 3rd year now.
So glad Terps posted more stats. We needed that!
It just so happened for Mara that his new ding-dong GM came to the very same decision.
HE's getting a 2nd year because the staff saw enough in him to believe he's a good starting QB. If you watch those final 8 games, you too would see improvements. Giants went 5-3. Offense scored more points. Jones was a better QB. He was more decisive and less error prone. The injury sucked.
The staff isn't sticking with Jones just to piss you off or make Mara happy. Jones is the best option on this team right now. If Jones doesn't progress or win games in 2021, the Giants will likely explore finding another QB.
It just so happened for Mara that his new ding-dong GM came to the very same decision.
Maybe if the 2018 Giants actually played some defense that team doesn't go 5-11 or whatever they finished at. And maybe then fans don't go right after Eli as the low hanging fruit of all NYG's problems, like they did in 2014 and 2015.
Giants scored 385 points in 2018. Not bad. Certainly not great but if that team plays enough defense perhaps things end differently.
We're still hyper focused on Eli and the offense yet the last decade has seen this team sucks balls for one simple reason: the defense has flat out sucked. 2015 they make the playoffs with an average defense. 2016 they did make the playoffs thanks to a good D. If the same defense from 2016 shows up in 2018, they win the east or make the playoffs as a WC.
It wasn't all Eli. How can we not see that?
Losi9ng back to back games in december despite scoring 27 and 25 points, respectively, that's 8 wins right there.
Seasons change on a dime. One bad loss or one big win can and will make all the difference. That defense that won the day in 2016 had a short shelf life. Maybe if that defense played more like the Steelers D year in and year out, we aren't having this same convo. Every year the Steelers D shows up. Not NYG. Hopefully that changes.
The Giants were fucked so many different ways once they tried transitioning from Coughlin you can't even list them all here in one post. I can try though. They had a clown at HC. A stubborn GM in Reese with little to no synergy with said clown show coaching staff. An older QB who couldn't stem the tide of shit about to overrun the franchise. A front running house of cards defense that was highly paid and not easily purgeable, at least not overnight. And the team's best player, Beckham, was about to suffer back to back injuries.
The only stable element about that team was Eli. So he made a lot money. He wasn't the problem. I find it curious that so many think a young QB not named Jones would just walk in here and cover up all the warts that Eli couldn't cover up. I question how toxic or comfy that NYG franchise was from 17-19. We've seen good QBs shit the bed on bad teams before only to go elsewhere and flourish. Not sure anything is growing here under Shurmur and it sure as hell wasn't under McAdoo.
All in the past now.
The front office made their decisions to stick with him, keep paying him and keep playing him.
And it didn't help anything.
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In comment 15305713 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:
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My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.
Terps is right on this one.
I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.
Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure
He s absolutely right. The Giants passed on quarterbacks that turned out to be pretty good. That s just a fact.
So did 30 other teams -- if the QB doesn't have the value on your draft board -- you don't pick him - that doesn't mean you missed them -- that means that your evaluations weren't correct, or even that that particular athlete wasn't a fit with your program.
They also passed on DEs, ERs, RBs, WRs, Ols, LBs, CBs, SSs that were pretty good -- so I don't understand how this is relevant or meaningful -- Sticking with Eli isn't the issue -- the issue is the valuations you place on players in the draft
Considering you've said that we've passed on Allen - isn't that a completely contradictory statement? Allen's college production didn't keep you from saying he's the better choice (in retrospect of course).
And again I'll point to Jones's poor collegiate production relative to other drafted quarterbacks in the past decade. So why did the Giants draft him? Was it because Accorsi saw some Bert Jones in him when he lost his last home game 59-7 to Wake Forest?
And again I'll point to Jones's poor collegiate production relative to other drafted quarterbacks in the past decade. So why did the Giants draft him? Was it because Accorsi saw some Bert Jones in him when he lost his last home game 59-7 to Wake Forest?
This outstanding talent evaluation of a QB with less than 2 years in the NFL trenches is right on par with your most excellent cites using ESPN as your authority -- call Jordan Raanan right away -- they need more panic stricken chicken little prognosticators at ESPN now -- it sells clicks and you'll fit right in
That's an irrelevant and disingenuous response.
Terps is asking a question about his college production. Why can't you just answer that?
Great observation. I posted it above, the most interesting next development will be if the current offensive thesis doesn't produce this year (Jones/Barkley especially) -- will the Giants:
A) Hold onto or invest further these fan favorite, high picks
B) Surgically, and unsentimentally reset
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Dwelling on the past is just tedious.
Great observation. I posted it above, the most interesting next development will be if the current offensive thesis doesn't produce this year (Jones/Barkley especially) -- will the Giants:
A) Hold onto or invest further these fan favorite, high picks
B) Surgically, and unsentimentally reset
Yup. That's 2021 in a nutshell.
And again I'll point to Jones's poor collegiate production relative to other drafted quarterbacks in the past decade. So why did the Giants draft him? Was it because Accorsi saw some Bert Jones in him when he lost his last home game 59-7 to Wake Forest?
Another aspect you continually downplay is Jones talent. The guy ran faster than any QB in something like 10 years. You don't do that with little talent. And again with the comparison to Allen. His college production was subpar. And he had a far worse completion rate as Jones, to go along with less stats in several categories. In the MWC vs the ACC.
The Giants were in position for a playoff spot last year in the mighty NFCE, and Jones’ injury while running certainly played a major part in not being able to reach that goal.
Not suggesting Giants shouldn’t take advantage of that part of Jones’ makeup but with that comes missed games. So you better have a coaching staff and offense that can adapt and a decent backup QB to hold down the fort. Do we?