Ownership has taken a lot of heat for the state of the team the past several years, and for good reason. The final years of Eli's career were wasted by bad coaching hires and poor decision making with a reboot that came too late (Reese was kept too long, 2018 was a bad year for the FO on so many levels, etc.)
One of the big criticisms was a tired old thinking trying to recreate past victories falling back into what worked in the past. So now we are here now and although the team has yet to prove something, there is a much different feel about this team and the direction they are headed. A lot of that stems form what Joe Judge is building, which is a complete overhaul of the football program. Judge himself was an outside hire, not a stay within your confort zone hire. They could have selected a retread like they did in Dallas or gone the X's and Os coordinator route to groom the young QB like they did with Shurmur or run the defense. They didn't. They took a shot on a guy on the basis of the qualities he has as a leader, his vision, attention to detail, and ability to communicate, and trusted him with the massive responsibility for rebuilding the program. Smartly, the first thing he did was overhaul the exceedingly deficient coaching staff and his abilities of persuasion and as a leader allowed him to sell several former head coaches far his senior to come on board. That in itself tells you a lot about the man they hired.
This may not work out for the team. We all know there are so many things that can go wrong, many being circumstantial. But in my view, I feel it is safe to say, whether it works out or not, though I am assuming it will, ownership deserves a bit of credit here for finally getting this one right. Particularly with respect to having the courage to step outside of their comfort zone, set aside media skepticism and take a chance on a relatively unknown candidate who did't have a lot of pins on his resume to CYA when he fails. That's the sort of thinking we need from ownership and has been very much lacking ---up until this point. As much as Mara and co. deserve the criticism that has been thrown their way the past few years, they also deserve a lot of credit for the optimism that's growing in the building.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
That’s an important point.The Maras are just Super Fans probably a little less flawed than the rest of us because they have more inside information. They make mistakes in judgement like the rest of us. They are invested and their mistakes carry greater consequences. They have always tried to win. No one has tried to “tank” a game or a season to get a higher draft pick or gain some economic advantage because the Maras wouldn’t allow it. They have given up some privileges and advantages the Giants could have had for the benefit of the whole league but that’s about all you can really criticize them for.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
Did you accidentally leave out the word "don't" from your opening sentence?
If so, why do you not think that they are nice people?
How well do you know them?
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
Did you leave out the word "don't" from your opening statement?
How well do, you knoiw the Maras?
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
Have to disagree on this point: It’s not the same thing over and over again. When they hired Judge, we now have possibly 4 OL starting, 3 who were drafted and Gates. So it’s NOT the same thing over and over again. They addressed it.
Now whether or not they prove to be our future remains to be seen, but it’s not an over and over again scenario, imo
What came was a series of half measures.
1) Forcing Macadoo onto Coughlin
2) Firing Coughlin but leaving Reese
3) Promoting Macadoo
4) Finally cleaning out Reese and Macadoo, hiring Shurmur.
5) By this time - Eli was cooked. Shurmur was not a good coach. But at the same time, I think it's clear he had a "Win with Eli" mandate from above whether he wanted to start him or not. Not in a position to succeed.
What came was a series of half measures.
1) Forcing Macadoo onto Coughlin
2) Firing Coughlin but leaving Reese
3) Promoting Macadoo
4) Finally cleaning out Reese and Macadoo, hiring Shurmur.
5) By this time - Eli was cooked. Shurmur was not a good coach. But at the same time, I think it's clear he had a "Win with Eli" mandate from above whether he wanted to start him or not. Not in a position to succeed.
It was NOT unreasonable to believe a still healthy Eli with his arm quite sound, could do quite well under Shurmur. After all, look what he did with Keenum. I was wrong about Shurmur and by extension, probably about Eli, esp. with that OL.
I was typing fast--sorry
Cool. Just like Parcells, Fassel and Coughlin.
That blind squirrel must have some great other sense!
I mean if it doesn't work out, by definition it means they didn't get this one right. All of this gloating about Judge and Mara should hold off until they at least have a winning season.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
What are you talking about.. they haven’t addressed the o-line ? They have a 1st, 2nd and 3rd all drafted in the past 4 years starting this year.. a Starting center in his 4th that looks to be an answer and then a 5th guard who is unproven.. the plan may not work but they have clearly addressed the o-line with a significant investment
I don’t think that’s fair. The Giants were on an island with Judge.
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and I think we tend to give them too much credit when things are good and too much blame when things are bad. Generally, they hire football people to run the football operations (Chris asides), give them some latitude to succeed or fail and go from there.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
What are you talking about.. they haven’t addressed the o-line ? They have a 1st, 2nd and 3rd all drafted in the past 4 years starting this year.. a Starting center in his 4th that looks to be an answer and then a 5th guard who is unproven.. the plan may not work but they have clearly addressed the o-line with a significant investment
Really because who is our right guard and right tackle this year? Maybe you would like it better if I said, adequately addressed our offensive line. Most experts thing our O-line will be in the bottom ten of the year. So, yeah, whether you want to give them credit for dumping resources into it "over the last four years" which in football is not a short time period, go for it. I am only interested in what this thread was discussing, which was are we headed in the right direction and my point was we have tried to sure up Offensive Line failures in the past with skill position talent and that hasn't worked and I do not believe it will work this time if our Line is not up to it.
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and I think we tend to give them too much credit when things are good and too much blame when things are bad. Generally, they hire football people to run the football operations (Chris asides), give them some latitude to succeed or fail and go from there.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
Have to disagree on this point: It’s not the same thing over and over again. When they hired Judge, we now have possibly 4 OL starting, 3 who were drafted and Gates. So it’s NOT the same thing over and over again. They addressed it.
Now whether or not they prove to be our future remains to be seen, but it’s not an over and over again scenario, imo
++
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and I think we tend to give them too much credit when things are good and too much blame when things are bad. Generally, they hire football people to run the football operations (Chris asides), give them some latitude to succeed or fail and go from there.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
Have to disagree on this point: It’s not the same thing over and over again. When they hired Judge, we now have possibly 4 OL starting, 3 who were drafted and Gates. So it’s NOT the same thing over and over again. They addressed it.
Now whether or not they prove to be our future remains to be seen, but it’s not an over and over again scenario, imo
I think we have more questions than answers on our offensive line at this point. Thomas had a mediocre rookie year, he improved as the year went on and we will see if he improves more but he isn't guaranteed. Its not like LG is a real answer yet in Shane Lemieux. Zach Fulton at RG is not an upgrade from last season. RT I have no idea what is going to happen there. So, yeah, I am not feeling that great about our offensive line. In fact, while some may believe, as I said we may coach them up, there is nothing to suggest our OL issues in the passing game will be resolved and help our skill position players flourish.
Things appeared stable coming off 2016, and one could make a case that the rebuild of 13-15 wasn't too long or too bad, but then it went shit show splat and we embarked on an even darker and shittier period 2017-2020. 2020 might be one of those productive 6-10 NYG seasons we have come to appreciate, but 2021 needs to kick ass before we can conclude anything.
I pray we win in 2021. It's such a big year for this franchise. So many storylines and players in the spotlight. It could be a really fun year. It could also be a devastatingly painful one, but I see good times ahead, or at the very least not terrible times ahead.
Mara and Tisch did a bad job with the Coughlin/Reese transition. McAdoo really set them back. Let's just hope we are past that mess and better times are to come. If not, the 70s are calling...
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
The Giants were pretty stuck once the ashes of 2017 were blowing around. They could only turn the roster inside out so much, and by the end of 18 they had pretty much done just that. The Giants didn't really blow it up until late 18 early 19. And by then it was a full blown nuke from orbit type rebuild. No surprise they weren't any good from 19 into first half of 2020. The team was composed of mostly very young players, including Jones.
2018 was a waste but they really didn't waste that much time if you think about it. Once DG came in, it took him one full year to all but purge the roster save for a few more in early 2020. Now we hope to see it bear fruit.
It sure looks like a 2005 type season heading into 2021, some differences, but there are a lot of similarities from a roster building POV.
They made a series of bad decisions from 2013-2019. They did a bad job, and the fans have every right to be disappointed.
Doesn’t make them bad people, or preclude them from doing well in the future. Everything isn’t zero sum.
They did well in the past, that doesn’t absolve them from responsibility for the bad job they did they the last several years. It’s been a terrible stretch of football and starts at the top.
But that bad stretch doesn’t mean they can’t turn it around. It looks promising they did by hiring Judge.
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
That sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong? And there's usually a faction going one way and one going the other.
If we hired the right HC in 2016, Eli's situation looks a lot different today. If we cut Eli in 2016 and stuck with McAdoo, they still shit the bed and have this stretch of bad play UNLESS they stepped in shit and drafted some can't miss QB 2017-2019. Even then, the team was about to be nuked and rebuilt, not sure any QB is coming in here and fixing shit on his own.
It's done. New team new QB better players.
Good post. Although need to see "if" something good or grows from what occurred in 19-20...
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In comment 15304919 Essex said:
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and I think we tend to give them too much credit when things are good and too much blame when things are bad. Generally, they hire football people to run the football operations (Chris asides), give them some latitude to succeed or fail and go from there.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
What are you talking about.. they haven’t addressed the o-line ? They have a 1st, 2nd and 3rd all drafted in the past 4 years starting this year.. a Starting center in his 4th that looks to be an answer and then a 5th guard who is unproven.. the plan may not work but they have clearly addressed the o-line with a significant investment
Really because who is our right guard and right tackle this year? Maybe you would like it better if I said, adequately addressed our offensive line. Most experts thing our O-line will be in the bottom ten of the year. So, yeah, whether you want to give them credit for dumping resources into it "over the last four years" which in football is not a short time period, go for it. I am only interested in what this thread was discussing, which was are we headed in the right direction and my point was we have tried to sure up Offensive Line failures in the past with skill position talent and that hasn't worked and I do not believe it will work this time if our Line is not up to it.
You literally stated that they were not building through the offensive line. That they were focusing on skilled players.. I simply pointed out that is not the case.. they are building the offensive line.. weather it will be successful or not is a whole other matter. Solder or Peart (3rd pick last year) will the RT and Shane, the most from oregan who’s last name I can’t spell of the top of my head will be the LG, Hernandez will be the RG
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In comment 15305028 joeinpa said:
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
That sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong? And there's usually a faction going one way and one going the other.
If we hired the right HC in 2016, Eli's situation looks a lot different today. If we cut Eli in 2016 and stuck with McAdoo, they still shit the bed and have this stretch of bad play UNLESS they stepped in shit and drafted some can't miss QB 2017-2019. Even then, the team was about to be nuked and rebuilt, not sure any QB is coming in here and fixing shit on his own.
It's done. New team new QB better players.
You want to please your fan base...then make good player moves with a sound decision-making process consistently backing it up. That will help maintain the quality of play on the field every season.
Whether those moves are in agreement with most of the fan base or not should be basically meaningless in the overall process...
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from a career aesthetics and even roster building POV, Eli should have retired after 2016 the minute the clock reached 00 in that GB playoff game. No more losing. No wasted time in developing a new QB, etc. I won't go back and play the what if draft game, I still think Barkley can be an amazing player and one that lifts this team to good play, but at the very least we'd have been better off watching Eli ride off into the sunset with a winning lifetime % and fresh off a playoff season. 2017-2018 was such a bummer. Can live with 2019 and 2020, but those two years did no good for anyone. Nothing really grew from it, unlike 19-20.
Good post. Although need to see "if" something good or grows from what occurred in 19-20...
Yep true. We do know for a fact that 17-28 sucked the high hard one and other than maybe a few good young emerging players that span was just a total waste of painful suffering. Yes we need to see 2021 and beyond before we feel good about anything.
We also don't know whether the organization learned anything from that process. They exercised Barkley's fifth-year option, and remain committed to Jones for at least another year. Are they building a strong core, or continuing to throw good money after bad by doubling down on mistakes? Judge showed promise in Year One. If the team continues to fail, how many losing seasons does he get? Sticking with Parcells after a 3-12-1 debut worked out. At some point, though, the guy has to win, not just say all the right things.
The Giants have been mostly awful for nine years. They remained mostly awful last year, especially when playing outside their pathetic division. The roster and staff look better on paper. We'll see.
I like what I am seeing from Judge. Jones will be the biggest factor whether he sees more success sooner or later (having to find another QB). I think ownership is prepared to be patient with him but I am sure some bumps in the road will be part of the journey with him.
The one thing he told me was that, unofficially, the Mara's were committed to have at least one legitimate shot at a Super Bowl run every decade. Meaning, they were willing to "break the bank" and spend big and trade assests when they got a core they thought had a chance to put over the top.
Obviously, the goal is to win every year. But, realistically, teams success runs in cycles (other than NE), so I found that interesting.
I got to meet GS once in the early 90s. I stayed at a hotel he owned in Tampa for an engineering conference and met him and Sticks at breakfast in the restaurant there. Very approachable and friendly. Joked around for a few minutes.
Totally changed my mind about him after that.
Mara wasn't the model of sports ownership people were making him out to be after 2011 and he isn't the bum people are making him out to be now.
My issue with this rebuild is that we are doing the same thing over and over and hoping for the same result. Instead of building through the offensive line, we are trying to get weapons to make up for that lack of time Jones will have. We saw them try that over and over with Eli with little success and I am not sure the result will be different with Jones. Until we solve our offensive line issues (and maybe coaching them up will solve ours) I am not really sold this team is headed in the right direction. I hope they shut me up.
The Giants have spent a TON of resources on the offensive line. The fact that to this point it hasn't worked out doesn't mean they haven't tried... as you seem to believe...
So far Joe Judge is everything I could hope for as NYG HC. So far is one year but I'm optimistic he's going to have a long successful run.
I don’t know the good and bad of all the various NFL owners. I know Philthy fans are trash but isn't Lurie pretty solid? Obviously the WFT owner is among the worst. We all love to hate on the Boys but Steven and Jerah aren’t what I would consider to be bad owners. The Jets owner is the bottom of the barrel.
Generally, I think we got it pretty darn good with Mara Tisch. We might not be winning lately with them but at least they have integrity and for sure Mara and Tisch want what’s best for the fans and they want to win. So, yeah they’re pretty good in my book.
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
It tells us that the fan base is often wrong. It tells us Mara is often in tune with what they want, case in pt, Mara reinserting Eli after he was benched.
It also brings into question the legitimacy of looking back with a critical eye were you in favor of moving forward with Eli.
For the record I was ready to move on in 2017.
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In comment 15305028 joeinpa said:
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
It tells us that the fan base is often wrong. It tells us Mara is often in tune with what they want, case in pt, Mara reinserting Eli after he was benched.
It also brings into question the legitimacy of looking back with a critical eye were you in favor of moving forward with Eli.
For the record I was ready to move on in 2017.
Keeping in tune with the fans is fine. Making them a part of your decision-making process is a mistake...
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In comment 15305042 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15305028 joeinpa said:
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
It tells us that the fan base is often wrong. It tells us Mara is often in tune with what they want, case in pt, Mara reinserting Eli after he was benched.
It also brings into question the legitimacy of looking back with a critical eye were you in favor of moving forward with Eli.
For the record I was ready to move on in 2017.
Keeping in tune with the fans is fine. Making them a part of your decision-making process is a mistake...
Not arguing that pt.
Agree 100%. That means something to me. I'm a sucker when it comes to that.
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as a fan, I’m glad that he only played his career as a Giant. I get that some fans don’t care if he put on a Jaguar helmet, but I’m glad he didn’t.
Agree 100%. That means something to me. I'm a sucker when it comes to that.
IMO sentimentality can hold teams back. It happened with Peter Chiarelli and the Bruins after their Cup win, it's currently happening with the Yankees and Gardner, and it happened with the Giants and Eli.
Felt the same way about Simms, so totally get it.
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I think it will simply be a case of our blind squirrel of an onwer finally finding a nut.
Cool. Just like Parcells, Fassel and Coughlin.
That blind squirrel must have some great other sense!
amazing the lengths people will go to defending Giant ownership. Now we have John Mara responsible for every good hire going back 40 years....lol. WTF is this bullshit?