Ownership has taken a lot of heat for the state of the team the past several years, and for good reason. The final years of Eli's career were wasted by bad coaching hires and poor decision making with a reboot that came too late (Reese was kept too long, 2018 was a bad year for the FO on so many levels, etc.)
One of the big criticisms was a tired old thinking trying to recreate past victories falling back into what worked in the past. So now we are here now and although the team has yet to prove something, there is a much different feel about this team and the direction they are headed. A lot of that stems form what Joe Judge is building, which is a complete overhaul of the football program. Judge himself was an outside hire, not a stay within your confort zone hire. They could have selected a retread like they did in Dallas or gone the X's and Os coordinator route to groom the young QB like they did with Shurmur or run the defense. They didn't. They took a shot on a guy on the basis of the qualities he has as a leader, his vision, attention to detail, and ability to communicate, and trusted him with the massive responsibility for rebuilding the program. Smartly, the first thing he did was overhaul the exceedingly deficient coaching staff and his abilities of persuasion and as a leader allowed him to sell several former head coaches far his senior to come on board. That in itself tells you a lot about the man they hired.
This may not work out for the team. We all know there are so many things that can go wrong, many being circumstantial. But in my view, I feel it is safe to say, whether it works out or not, though I am assuming it will, ownership deserves a bit of credit here for finally getting this one right. Particularly with respect to having the courage to step outside of their comfort zone, set aside media skepticism and take a chance on a relatively unknown candidate who did't have a lot of pins on his resume to CYA when he fails. That's the sort of thinking we need from ownership and has been very much lacking ---up until this point. As much as Mara and co. deserve the criticism that has been thrown their way the past few years, they also deserve a lot of credit for the optimism that's growing in the building.
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In comment 15305244 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15305042 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15305028 joeinpa said:
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
It tells us that the fan base is often wrong. It tells us Mara is often in tune with what they want, case in pt, Mara reinserting Eli after he was benched.
It also brings into question the legitimacy of looking back with a critical eye were you in favor of moving forward with Eli.
For the record I was ready to move on in 2017.
Keeping in tune with the fans is fine. Making them a part of your decision-making process is a mistake...
Not arguing that pt.
Then what was your point in the first post? Seemed to be about the fans.
- Manning got his ass kicked on the field, and lost a bunch of games
- The Giants made significant free agent investment geared toward Manning that failed in the immediate term
- The Giants didn't start the clock on the patient process of integrating a new starting QB (we're learning it takes at least 3 years)
I'm much more comfortable with the thesis that Mara and Gettleman were telling the truth, and believed Manning was still a good QB.
They were wrong, and in my view it was clear as day he was shot.
The alternative, that the motivation was to preserve Manning's legacy and sentimentality is abhorrent.
ESPN this week released the results of a recent poll of coaches, players, and executives ranking the top ten QBs in the NFL. 3 of them (Allen, Jackson, and Herbert) could have been drafted by the Giants without so much as a trade up. That's part of the legacy of keeping Eli too long.
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In comment 15305320 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15305244 joeinpa said:
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In comment 15305042 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15305028 joeinpa said:
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Most fans were on board with making the proverbial run with Eli. There s is no question Mara s loyalty to Eli was the driving influence for the strategy they chose; it turned out to be a mistake, but it was what most of the fan base wanted.
So? And what does that tell us about most of the fan base then as well?
It tells us that the fan base is often wrong. It tells us Mara is often in tune with what they want, case in pt, Mara reinserting Eli after he was benched.
It also brings into question the legitimacy of looking back with a critical eye were you in favor of moving forward with Eli.
For the record I was ready to move on in 2017.
Keeping in tune with the fans is fine. Making them a part of your decision-making process is a mistake...
Not arguing that pt.
Then what was your point in the first post? Seemed to be about the fans.
Correct, thought the pt was clear, guess not, my bad.
Yes - and as we know
ESPN always gets it right, Don't they!
Their reporting of other's opinions is an outstanding authority
Dave Gettleman's competition isn't ESPN -- it's Beane, De Costa, Telesco etc.
Being nominally better than WFT and the Jets is a low bar, no?
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Yes - and as we know
ESPN always gets it right, Don't they!
Their reporting of other's opinions is an outstanding authority
I don't understand. Are you saying ESPN can't accurately relay the findings of their poll, or that they're being disingenuous in some way?
It's a poll of people in the league...
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In comment 15305564 Go Terps said:
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Yes - and as we know
ESPN always gets it right, Don't they!
Their reporting of other's opinions is an outstanding authority
I don't understand. Are you saying ESPN can't accurately relay the findings of their poll, or that they're being disingenuous in some way?
It's a poll of people in the league...
which people? Unidentified ghosts? Leo Riddick? He rated Haskens as top talent. A fired GM or 2? any names at all that we can rest our hats on as credible? Or when ESPN says categories of sources you just buy them as exemplary because they fit your narrative? Stooping pretty low today.
Lamar Jackson may have in fact peaked as an NFL player. I like him too. Would have loved to see NYG draft him, but I am a little leery of this guy's long term NFL prognosis. HE's an athlete first. Passer second, no matter what the stats might say. Watch him play. He gets by on INSANDE athletic abilities and plays for a great HC. Again, he deserves everything he's gotten thus far, but I think Jackson needs to adjust or the NFL will slowly render him less and less prolific.
NEither here or there. Jackson love I can take. This non stop slobber fest over Herbet makes me nuts.
Thanks for the reminder about ELi's end of career failures though. We needed that.
lol. Who the fuck cares what they say.
Can we finally wake the fuck up and realize that when someone real isn't quoted or named as a legit source, it's bullshit? "League execs" ---yeah ok. And even if they are real they are wrong too. Teams passed on Lamar Jackson so now these same people are being quoted in an article about which QBs rule the league? Who cares?
Also, write it on the chalkboard 1000 times so it sinks in:
2018 is over and done with.
2018 is over and done with.
2018 is over and done with.
2018 is over and done with.
2018 is over and done with.
Mahomes
Rodgers
Brady
Wilson
Allen
Stafford
Prescott
Jackson
Herbert
Murray
That's all. The point about the Giants being in position to draft three of those guys and not doing it is mine, not ESPN's. I still don't know what the problem is here.
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In comment 15305564 Go Terps said:
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Yes - and as we know
ESPN always gets it right, Don't they!
Their reporting of other's opinions is an outstanding authority
I don't understand. Are you saying ESPN can't accurately relay the findings of their poll, or that they're being disingenuous in some way?
It's a poll of people in the league...
Yes I am saying that. And who cares? We know the NFL likes Justin Herbert and Jackson and Allen. 2 of those guys were playing into January 2021. Of course they are good QBs.
Can we go back and talk about the good picks the Giants made lately and conjure up the bad players we didn't draft? Haskins? Even Josh Allen the edge player had a quiet 2020.
This team could be on the brink of good sustained play. Big year coming up.
Mahomes
Rodgers
Brady
Wilson
Allen
Stafford
Prescott
Jackson
Herbert
Murray
That's all. The point about the Giants being in position to draft three of those guys and not doing it is mine, not ESPN's. I still don't know what the problem is here.
We know this, Terps. You say so just about every other post. It's not a revelation. It's not even a finished slam dunk debate yet, because, well, Jones is still not even in his 3rd year and this staff believes in him. Jones is the QB. Accept it already.
The staff likes Jones because the staff knows things you and I do not know. They don't only look at stats. They look at growth. Leadership. Line calls and changes/audibles. They take talent into account, both individually and surrounding. They look at progressions and improvements made throughout (last) the season. You apparently do not.
Whatever, I was told I get owned by you all the time in these debates, but I don't see it that way. And this one is far from over. I've been right a lot and wrong a lot. I own my mistakes or losses and I think I am right more than I am wrong. Jones is a tough one, but I don't fault the Giants at all for sticking with him this coming year.
Many of the mistakes from 2018/2019 are off the books, but is the root cause?
I find reasons to be hopeful if I can. Don't see me losing any money betting on this team. I cannot go into every year with no hope. Aint wired that way. Sports are supposed to be a fun distraction.
Many of the mistakes from 2018/2019 are off the books, but is the root cause?
Eli was due big money. Fans are over thinking this one. They had a decent older QB still on the books and they had Barkley, a transcendent talent sitting there at pick 2. They were coming off the ugliest season in history and wanted to draft the best player.
Not everything is a conspiracy. The second Eli's play didn't elevate that 2018 team, the Giants drafted Jones. It didn't go on as long as some here insist upon. One year. YEs Eli probably should have just quit after 2016 but the team was built to win! Eli was coming off a decent stat year and won 11 games. They went all in for 2017, it went to shit, and 1 full year later they put into effect the plan to move on from ELi. We're talking one year here.
Did the Giants hesitate when Eli didn't look so good in 2019 anymore? No, they started Jones asap.
I really don't think the presence of Eli precluded the Giants from drafting a QB in 2018. The presence of BArkley did. Think about it. Eli in 2018 was probably better than he was in 2016 yet the team still drafted a QB in the 2019 draft.
If the Giants loved a QB at pick 2 in 18, they probably draft him. Why is this so hard to believe?
"The Giants were in position to take Allen, Jackson, Herbert without drafting up". Well fuck, they were in position to take Darnold, Rosen, Lock and Tua without trading up as well.
So what in the fuck does that mean? Not to mention that had they taken Allen or Jackson, drafting Herbert isn't really an option is it? Or once they drafted Jones, taking Herbert isn't really an option, is it?
I'll still be looking forward to see comments on Herbert going forward if SD doesn't win. Is crowing about his rookie season going to continue?
And Barkley was perfect. You can disagree with NYG's take, but that is how most in the NFL world saw things.
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My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.
I really don't think the presence of Eli precluded the Giants from drafting a QB in 2018. The presence of BArkley did. Think about it. Eli in 2018 was probably better than he was in 2016 yet the team still drafted a QB in the 2019 draft.
If the Giants loved a QB at pick 2 in 18, they probably draft him. Why is this so hard to believe?
So you think if Eli retires after 2017 they still draft Barkley? I find it hard to believe they could be that stupid.
I have a question for you...you say we have to wait 3 years to assess Jones. OK...so by that rationale shouldn't we only now be assessing the 2018 draft?
Why do we have to be patient with Jones, but let the Barkley pick go already?
Oh that's right...because both picks have borne out to be franchise altering mistakes and we're afraid to admit it.
Given their judgement at QB in 2018 and 2019 it's fair to assume they would have misplayed their considerable hand.
So you think if Eli retires after 2017 they still draft Barkley? I find it hard to believe they could be that stupid.
I have a question for you...you say we have to wait 3 years to assess Jones. OK...so by that rationale shouldn't we only now be assessing the 2018 draft?
Why do we have to be patient with Jones, but let the Barkley pick go already?
and there it is -- rip off the bandaid and that's what you get -- Bash the Jones pick -- hammer! hammer! hammer!
Oh that's right...because both picks have borne out to be franchise altering mistakes and we're afraid to admit it.
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And I'm wondering if I'll be getting any apologies when the Giants move on from Jones after this year or next. I doubt it.
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I'll still be looking forward to see comments on Herbert going forward if SD doesn't win. Is crowing about his rookie season going to continue?
And I'm wondering if I'll be getting any apologies when the Giants move on from Jones after this year or next. I doubt it.
Seeing that Jones had a very good rookie year and you treat him like he's been absolute dogshit, are you really looking for apologies or do you just want to say you were right?
2020
Whatever, I was told I get owned by you all the time in these debates, but I don't see it that way. And this one is far from over. I've been right a lot and wrong a lot. I own my mistakes or losses and I think I am right more than I am wrong. Jones is a tough one, but I don't fault the Giants at all for sticking with him this coming year.
I sincerely doubt you'll see the kind of patience with QBs going forward as was seen in the past. Everyone acts like three years isn't enough time, and by the old paradigm you're right, but three years is likely going to be the amount of time any QB is given to be "the guy" before they're sent packing.
Yes I am saying that. And who cares? We know the NFL likes Justin Herbert and Jackson and Allen. 2 of those guys were playing into January 2021. Of course they are good QBs.
Can we go back and talk about the good picks the Giants made lately and conjure up the bad players we didn't draft? Haskins? Even Josh Allen the edge player had a quiet 2020.
This team could be on the brink of good sustained play. Big year coming up.
What force is stopping you, or anybody else on this site, from talking about the good picks the Giants have made lately or bad ones avoided? Start a thread, or write a post in this one and have the conversation.
And Barkley was perfect. You can disagree with NYG's take, but that is how most in the NFL world saw things.
He was perfect?
I didn't know that, nor that most in the NFL knew it either.
This is a matter of opinion, and in this instance I disagree with you and believe the outcomes show you to be wrong.
- three quarters into 2017 the staff understood he was slipping
- 2018 Manning threw the 2nd fewest TDs of any QB playing 16 games
- 2019 Manning was finally benched
- Retaining Manning for 18/19 cost the Giants an additional 32M that was not guaranteed or booked
- After Manning was benched in 2017, his record as a Giants was 6-16
- After Manning was benched, the Giants record has been 16-36
If you believe this was a good outcome, that's foolish in my view.
Terps is right on this one.
And I'm wondering if I'll be getting any apologies when the Giants move on from Jones after this year or next. I doubt it.
Just as I wonder if you'll be issuing any -- you are soo wrong about this -- and desperate to be right. It's pathetic
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My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.
Terps is right on this one.
I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.
Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure
I've long said it. I don't care if Jones is terrible, you don't give up on a QB after 20 games unless the evidence is beyond damning. And when a new staff comes in (Judge) and proclaims that Jones is worth the squeeze, it's mindful to understand why they are giving Jones 2021.
I liked the NYG defense more than most heading into 2020. I predicted that the Giants would have a very busy and exciting off-season despite the cap worries around here. I also defended Dave Brown for a year or so. I defended Eli. I said Julius Randle would shine under Thibs. Also said Allan Houston was worth the re-sign, prior to the injuries. Win some. Lose some. I can take being called wrong. I just know I am not out of touch with this franchise. No one follows them more intently than I do. And I believe fully that the Giants know more about Jones than the fans do and that knowledge in Jones goes a long way. It aint all stats.
Whatever, it's so rehashed now it isn't even funny anymore. Giants had a bad decade. We all know it. Things look like they are trending upward now and the last 2 years or so appear to be helping that cause. Keep the hope alive.
Could be similar to the post Dave Brown years when the Giants went the vet QB route in Collins. With that said, gun to my head, I think Jones is the QB in 2022.
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In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:
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My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.
Terps is right on this one.
I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.
Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure
Is that controversial to suggest that if the Giants had moved on from Eli earlier that they would have potentially taken opportunities to draft a new franchise QB in 2017 or 2018 with more intent? We don't know how serious they evaluated guys in those drafts, nor do we know how they would have ranked those guys so can stop referring to how BBI was looking at them too.
And Eli was showing more than enough warts as the 2016 season went along to suggest concerns. Pointing to the occasional strong quarter or half in a game (like the wildcard game vs Packers in Jan 2017) shouldn't just displace the declining trends. In my view.
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In comment 15305638 Go Terps said:
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My point in response to some posts above was about the Giants sticking with Eli too long, and a consequence of that being that we missed out on drafting 3 QBs that are considered in NFL circles to be top 10 at the position. That may be the biggest price the Giants paid for Eli not wearing another uniform.
Terps is right on this one.
I don't think he is right. Who were the Giants going to take in the 2018 draft. I didn't think any of those qbs was worth the #2 pick and neither did the Giants. Darnold was who was being touted around here, and everywhere else, you want to tell me that picking Darnold or Rosen would have made a difference. Allen was not a favored pick and not likely a number 2 pick, as much as I personally liked him -- but he was raw when he was picked and may or may not have been a better pick than Jones. There was no buy in on a QB in that draft or they would have taken one, and it turns out the picks all would have been at the very least controversial. Was Mahommes on the Giants radar? Who knows.
Who knows if the Giants had properly staffed the oline if Eli wouldn't have had better seasons -- the real problem was that Reese did not do a good job of placing support staff around eli on the line -- I don't think Eli was washed up as much as he was thrown under the bus for the sins of this failure
He s absolutely right. The Giants passed on quarterbacks that turned out to be pretty good. That s just a fact.
We all felt the same way - 2020 was the year to draft a QB after they didn’t go QB in 2018.
We all felt the same way - 2020 was the year to draft a QB after they didn’t go QB in 2018.
That would have been much smarter.
The issue was more the team around him than Eli. He needed a 2005-2008 type team around him and he could have managed things with a offense like 2008. It just was not feasible. For those still stubborn and short sighted about the mandate when DG came in go back and look at all the damage control Mara was trying to do after he was benched. There was outrage across the board (former Giant greats, fans, media, etc.) and it highlighted how poor the talent acquisition had been. No way Mara was doubling down and then dumping Eli.
For these other QB's always mentioned they could have had; well there is much more to see moving forward. Jones may or may not be the answer (I'm skeptical) but these other QB's still have a lot more to show imo (playoffs, SB's, etc.).
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that the 2 best QBs in franchise history, one of them still so fresh in our memories, were both virtually on the chopping block, both here and just about everywhere, by year 3. Terps I know you loved Eli and probably defended him in 2007, but dude....YEAR 3! Astonishing the lack of patience and perspective you've displayed with Jones. I say that respectfully because I know you know the NFL and this franchise as well as anyone. Just bizarre.
Whatever, I was told I get owned by you all the time in these debates, but I don't see it that way. And this one is far from over. I've been right a lot and wrong a lot. I own my mistakes or losses and I think I am right more than I am wrong. Jones is a tough one, but I don't fault the Giants at all for sticking with him this coming year.
I sincerely doubt you'll see the kind of patience with QBs going forward as was seen in the past. Everyone acts like three years isn't enough time, and by the old paradigm you're right, but three years is likely going to be the amount of time any QB is given to be "the guy" before they're sent packing.
Right. But it hasn't been 3 years yet. We're entering that 3rd year now.
So glad Terps posted more stats. We needed that!
It just so happened for Mara that his new ding-dong GM came to the very same decision.
HE's getting a 2nd year because the staff saw enough in him to believe he's a good starting QB. If you watch those final 8 games, you too would see improvements. Giants went 5-3. Offense scored more points. Jones was a better QB. He was more decisive and less error prone. The injury sucked.
The staff isn't sticking with Jones just to piss you off or make Mara happy. Jones is the best option on this team right now. If Jones doesn't progress or win games in 2021, the Giants will likely explore finding another QB.
It just so happened for Mara that his new ding-dong GM came to the very same decision.
Maybe if the 2018 Giants actually played some defense that team doesn't go 5-11 or whatever they finished at. And maybe then fans don't go right after Eli as the low hanging fruit of all NYG's problems, like they did in 2014 and 2015.
Giants scored 385 points in 2018. Not bad. Certainly not great but if that team plays enough defense perhaps things end differently.
We're still hyper focused on Eli and the offense yet the last decade has seen this team sucks balls for one simple reason: the defense has flat out sucked. 2015 they make the playoffs with an average defense. 2016 they did make the playoffs thanks to a good D. If the same defense from 2016 shows up in 2018, they win the east or make the playoffs as a WC.
It wasn't all Eli. How can we not see that?
Losi9ng back to back games in december despite scoring 27 and 25 points, respectively, that's 8 wins right there.
Seasons change on a dime. One bad loss or one big win can and will make all the difference. That defense that won the day in 2016 had a short shelf life. Maybe if that defense played more like the Steelers D year in and year out, we aren't having this same convo. Every year the Steelers D shows up. Not NYG. Hopefully that changes.