for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

ESPN Ranks Giants O-Line Dead Last in the NFL

JoeyBigBlue : 7/16/2021 9:10 pm
32. New York Giants
Projected PBWR: 52%

Projected offensive line: Andrew Thomas (56th), Shane Lemieux (69th), Nick Gates (34th), Will Hernandez (31st), Matt Peart (DNQ)

So much for general manager Dave Gettleman's grand plan for the offensive line. The rookie Thomas performed well according to our run blocking metric, but he was a liability as a pass protector -- though he did battle an ankle injury that required surgery after the season.

In what could be a make-or-break season for third-year quarterback Daniel Jones, Gettleman got him more receiving help, but Jones is going to be on the run behind this O-Line.

Discuss.
I guess we'll see.  
81_Great_Dane : 7/16/2021 9:13 pm : link
.
_________  
I am Ninja : 7/16/2021 9:25 pm : link
maybe. maybe theyll outperform. who knows?
Frankly, who gives a...  
BMac : 7/16/2021 9:27 pm : link
...flying fuck what ESPN thinks.
Nick Gates rates  
section125 : 7/16/2021 9:28 pm : link
behind 32 starters and on back up????? And Thomas will be almost last of all tackles??

Yep, ok

Fine  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 7/16/2021 9:42 pm : link

Steelers  
AnishPatel : 7/16/2021 9:53 pm : link
lost 4/5 OL. I would think they are in deep shit.
The prevailing  
Ron Johnson : 7/16/2021 10:02 pm : link
Storyline this off-season has been that Daniel Jones has “no excuses” this season. Sounds like ESPN thinks he does have an excuse.
In Greek mythology ....  
Manny in CA : 7/16/2021 10:10 pm : link

Atlas is condemned to hold the world on his shoulders. Rob Sale has a similar task - Piece together a mix of corps of young, inexperienced and underperforming vets into a group that will try to keep Jones on his feet and blocking for Barkley.
RE: In Greek mythology ....  
Del Shofner : 7/16/2021 10:36 pm : link
In comment 15306626 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Atlas is condemned to hold the world on his shoulders.


I think Sisyphus is the more applicable Greek myth. The Giants keep trying to roll that boulder up the hill, but it keeps rolling back down.
Then it'll be tough for them to  
Bill in UT : 7/16/2021 10:47 pm : link
underperfrom
While I love the upgrades to our weapons;  
Dave in Hoboken : 7/16/2021 10:47 pm : link
the fact that little to nothing was done to the OL is a concern. Hopefully, they will improve from being a group for a 2nd year in a row and have more chemistry, but that's alittle risky to depend on with a young QB still trying to find himself and a RB coming off a torn ACL. Hoping it all works out, though. But it's fair for the media (or whoever) to list it as a concern. It is.
lagging analysis  
mittenedman : 7/16/2021 11:06 pm : link
yawn
It’s all upside from this point on  
Jimmy Googs : 7/16/2021 11:07 pm : link
...
This is the weakest unit on the team.  
Since1965 : 7/16/2021 11:10 pm : link
All the weapons they've added will mean little if the OL is anything close to what it was last year. It's the OL that will potentially ruin this team. I'm still pissed that basically the same personnel is returning.
I'm sure the "experts" at ESPN  
Bricktop : 7/16/2021 11:12 pm : link
have it all figured out. Just a straight trash analysis based on some absurd and arbitrary metric figured out by pencil necks who've never played a down of football in their lives. Who cares? It's all just filler until the season starts. Clickbait taint sweat.
Offensive Line Will be Fine  
OntheRoad : 7/16/2021 11:33 pm : link

at least provided Lemieux learns to pass block.
Sherlock Holmes and the dog that didn't bark  
Grizz99 : 7/16/2021 11:45 pm : link
They conspicuously did nothing about center through last year's free agency and draft.
They had the answer at hand and knew it.
If they needed help they would have gone out and gotten it.
Time to trust, I think they've earned it.
Sherlock Holmes and the dog that didn't bark  
Grizz99 : 7/16/2021 11:45 pm : link
They conspicuously did nothing about center through last year's free agency and draft.
They had the answer at hand and knew it.
If they needed help they would have gone out and gotten it.
Time to trust, I think they've earned it.
Sherlock Holmes and the dog that didn't bark  
Grizz99 : 7/16/2021 11:46 pm : link
They conspicuously did nothing about center through last year's free agency and draft.
They had the answer at hand and knew it.
If they needed help they would have gone out and gotten it.
Time to trust, I think they've earned it.
 
christian : 7/16/2021 11:55 pm : link
Pass blocking win rate isn’t a very complex analysis — it’s a simple measure of if a lineman holds his block.

It can’t be that controversial or surprising that a team among the top in sacks, hits, and pressures and near the bottom in passing TDs, couldn’t hold their blocks.
You're right, Del ...  
Manny in CA : 7/16/2021 11:58 pm : link

I thought of that one, but I thought again - overstated I thought.
The line had three rookies and a first year starter last year  
BillT : 7/17/2021 12:44 am : link
And I don’t think they were the worst OL in the league. But this year they’re going to be worse? This group could be a problem but the worst in the league. Not likely. I think Thomas will prove he is the best of the tackles taken last year. Gates is a player and Hernandez will be average. I don’t know about Lemieux or Peart but they have vet backups who could step in if they fail.
Last year Giants break the huddle  
Lines of Scrimmage : 7/17/2021 7:18 am : link
What scared defenses trying to defend? Really not very much to consider.

I think coaching, scheme adjustments and PL players gaining more experience all will help. However, the additions made and Barkley coming back will have a bigger impact on improved performance imo.
Yawn.  
Klaatu : 7/17/2021 7:26 am : link
ESPN rankings and a box of rocks are worth a box of rocks.

I have no idea how the Giants O-Line will perform this year. No one does (and that goes for every other unit on the team). So I'm not going to get bent out of shape over what some sportswriter wrote about it in the middle of July.
Cleveland  
JoeyBigBlue : 7/17/2021 8:31 am : link
Was #1 for what it’s worth.
Kansas City with 4 new starters  
JoeyBigBlue : 7/17/2021 8:46 am : link
Ranked 6th… fucking hilarious.
They  
Toth029 : 7/17/2021 8:53 am : link
Think Evan Engram is a top 10 TE.

That shows enough of what they know.

And please name-drop the NFC coach who said Engram would be a star on the Chiefs.
The more I think about our ol, the more I think it's still a question  
Ira : 7/17/2021 8:59 am : link
mark. We'll have to see how they do in pre-season and when the games start to count.
57 days until Game 1  
arniefez : 7/17/2021 8:59 am : link
That's the only thing that matters for the Giants now. Beat Denver start 1-0 and go from there.
What ESPN Genius  
Bernie : 7/17/2021 9:01 am : link
with ZERO credentials determined this? Looking forward to every last reporter having to wipe their chins when the Giants win the division.
Magic formula  
Giantimistic : 7/17/2021 9:36 am : link
Rate a team in one of the biggest markets with an exaggerated rating and let the comments and clicks fly.

While I think the line will be good, they are definitely not the worst in the NFL. I would not be surprised if the writer thinks they are the worst line as well.
...  
broadbandz : 7/17/2021 9:37 am : link
the playbook can make the line look good or bad. Does anyone really think the 49ers have a great line or the chiefs? but they have great coaching and a modern playbook that doesnt stress them every single down.
I like it  
bobc : 7/17/2021 9:56 am : link
I love it, they definitely will not enter the season cocky, I love it when you throw down the gauntlet to a professional and basically tell them that they can’t do something
ESPN..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/17/2021 10:12 am : link
would suck at investing tactics since they seemingly believe that past performance is indeed indicative of future performance
Espn qb rankings 2010  
djm : 7/17/2021 10:24 am : link
Guys like mcnabb and Palmer above eli and flacco. They have Alex Smith in the 20s with this doozy, Chance of being elite: 0 percent. Eli doozy, Arrow is pointing: Flat.

Trash. As usual.
Link - ( New Window )
So Eli is at 11  
djm : 7/17/2021 10:26 am : link
Behind mcnabb who is seconds away from being thrown out of the NFL while Eli is about to throw approx 180 tds over a 6 year span while adding another Lombardi.

They are the worst.
 
christian : 7/17/2021 10:39 am : link
The ranking is on pass protection, not overall. And it’s really not a complex or magical formula — it’s measuring the percentage of time a lineman holds his block for 2.5 seconds.

Is that the right measurement, I don’t know.

Seems to correlate pretty well to the 2020 Giants. Lots of guys not holding their blocks, and not coincidentally the Giants were among the worst in sacks, pressures, hits, TDs, points.

Fatman makes a good point — what happened last year, especially with a bunch of young players isn’t a great indicator of the future. Safe to assume some maturation.

The part that makes me itchy is how basically all of the group would need to get a lot better, to have an average pass protecting unit. That feels low odds to me.
RE: I'm sure the  
allstarjim : 7/17/2021 10:47 am : link
In comment 15306664 Bricktop said:
Quote:
have it all figured out. Just a straight trash analysis based on some absurd and arbitrary metric figured out by pencil necks who've never played a down of football in their lives. Who cares? It's all just filler until the season starts. Clickbait taint sweat.


This is the correct take.
And when the O-Line does much better than that  
montanagiant : 7/17/2021 11:40 am : link
ESPN will still spend all season slamming the O-Line to justify this silly ass clickbait
The problem only score that accurately represents where the player  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/17/2021 11:44 am : link
was by week 17 is Lemiuex. He needs to get much better in pass blocking. I’d be curious what the scores are if you mixed weeks 1-8.
RE: …  
jhibb : 7/17/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15306809 christian said:
Quote:

Fatman makes a good point — what happened last year, especially with a bunch of young players isn’t a great indicator of the future. Safe to assume some maturation.

The part that makes me itchy is how basically all of the group would need to get a lot better, to have an average pass protecting unit. That feels low odds to me.


I agree for the most part, but I also think the odds are better when you consider that not only are they a young unit, but they were working last year with a first-year head coach, a 2nd year QB in a new system with a new OC, mid-year drama and change at OL coach, and the constraints of the pandemic which likely disproportionately affected units with all those characteristics.
Then throw in the lack of weapons to help keep the defenses off balance.

It probably sounds like a lot of excuses and I do get the concern going into this season, but there are a lot of reasons for hope of significant improvement this year for the unit, even with the same players in place.
RE: RE: …  
christian : 7/17/2021 12:52 pm : link
In comment 15306862 jhibb said:
Quote:
It probably sounds like a lot of excuses and I do get the concern going into this season, but there are a lot of reasons for hope of significant improvement this year for the unit, even with the same players in place.


Doesn’t sound like excuse making to me — sounds like mitigating circumstances. There was plenty working against the Giants last year.

My view is always based on what I think the likelihoods are.

No one knows how Sale will translate as an NFL coach and how that will play out. That’s an unknown.

The Giants then are counting on a 2nd year LT to round out his consistency, a 2nd year guard to dramatically improve his pass protection, a 4th year guard to dramatically improve his overall play, and a 2nd year right tackle who played 150 snaps last year to up the level at the position.

There are 5 players and 1 coach who need to do well — and the only one among the group who can say they’ve done that at the NFL level for 16 games is Nick Gates.

If the Giants line plays well, it will be a big headline and a big surprise. If the Eagles or Redskins were in this circumstance, I bet a lot of Giants fans would be skeptical about the chances for success.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 7/17/2021 12:56 pm : link
Thomas is a highly drafted, talented player who showed signs of improvement in the back half of the year. I can see him taking a big step forward.

I don't know if last is appropriate but they're a bottom third unit. I think way too much has to break right to be an above average unit.
If I'm Judge...  
bw in dc : 7/17/2021 3:08 pm : link
I'm definitely showing the entire OL unit this ranking. Any motivation for such an unproven unit can't hurt.

As for the ranking, what did anyone really expect? We really didn't add anyone this offseason and seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year. We may not be last, but we are closer to last that middle of the pack...right now.
These espn rankings  
djm : 7/17/2021 3:21 pm : link
Are usually of the what have you done for me lately, variety. Little to no deep analysis or projection. These lists don’t account for what’s to come, but more what happened last year.

The giants OL could suck again but this list is still worthless trash. Stopped watch is right twice a day too. With that said I’ll bet every dollar I own the giants OL isn’t dead last this year, it probably won’t even be worst in the East.
RE: If I'm Judge...  
BillT : 7/17/2021 5:21 pm : link
In comment 15307014 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I'm definitely showing the entire OL unit this ranking. Any motivation for such an unproven unit can't hurt.

As for the ranking, what did anyone really expect? We really didn't add anyone this offseason and seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year. We may not be last, but we are closer to last that middle of the pack...right now.

We “seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year.” What a total crock. We’re committed to a unit that was totally rebuilt last year and includes the #4 pick in the draft, plus 3rd and 5th round picks, a promising UDFA abd a former 2nd round pick plus some decent vet backups.
RE: RE: If I'm Judge...  
Jimmy Googs : 7/17/2021 5:51 pm : link
In comment 15307122 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 15307014 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I'm definitely showing the entire OL unit this ranking. Any motivation for such an unproven unit can't hurt.

As for the ranking, what did anyone really expect? We really didn't add anyone this offseason and seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year. We may not be last, but we are closer to last that middle of the pack...right now.


We “seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year.” What a total crock. We’re committed to a unit that was totally rebuilt last year and includes the #4 pick in the draft, plus 3rd and 5th round picks, a promising UDFA abd a former 2nd round pick plus some decent vet backups.


Yes, that unit. The dreadful one...
RE: RE: If I'm Judge...  
bw in dc : 7/17/2021 5:51 pm : link
In comment 15307122 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 15307014 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I'm definitely showing the entire OL unit this ranking. Any motivation for such an unproven unit can't hurt.

As for the ranking, what did anyone really expect? We really didn't add anyone this offseason and seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year. We may not be last, but we are closer to last that middle of the pack...right now.


We “seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year.” What a total crock. We’re committed to a unit that was totally rebuilt last year and includes the #4 pick in the draft, plus 3rd and 5th round picks, a promising UDFA abd a former 2nd round pick plus some decent vet backups.


I agree the OL was rebuilt last year. But the unit was also dreadful.

Those are not mutually exclusive.

So I'm not sure what the issue is. Unless you think the OL wasn't dreadful last season.
RE: RE: RE: If I'm Judge...  
bLiTz 2k : 7/17/2021 6:13 pm : link
In comment 15307142 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15307122 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 15307014 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I'm definitely showing the entire OL unit this ranking. Any motivation for such an unproven unit can't hurt.

As for the ranking, what did anyone really expect? We really didn't add anyone this offseason and seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year. We may not be last, but we are closer to last that middle of the pack...right now.


We “seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year.” What a total crock. We’re committed to a unit that was totally rebuilt last year and includes the #4 pick in the draft, plus 3rd and 5th round picks, a promising UDFA abd a former 2nd round pick plus some decent vet backups.



I agree the OL was rebuilt last year. But the unit was also dreadful.

Those are not mutually exclusive.

So I'm not sure what the issue is. Unless you think the OL wasn't dreadful last season.


Dreadful would be they didnt perform AND progress in all areas. They ran the ball better than any Giants team since Coughlin was coach...thats not dreadful.

Gates and Thomas got better as the year went on. Lemieux was not good in the pass game. Cam Flemming was pretty bad and hes no longer on the team.

Sorry but you can say they had an awful start, and bad stretches, but still did some very good things. Enough is enough already..its time to wait and see and stop whining about it. We definitely saw enough to hope/expect them to play better.
Enough is enough already  
Jimmy Googs : 7/17/2021 6:24 pm : link
It’s time to wait and see??

Haha, excuse my laughter but that may be the funniest post I have read in some time....
RE: ESPN..  
Scooter185 : 7/17/2021 6:33 pm : link
In comment 15306787 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
would suck at investing tactics since they seemingly believe that past performance is indeed indicative of future performance


Then why do baseball teams intentionally walk the batter in front of the pitcher? Who do NBA teams intentionally foul the worst free throw shooter? Past performance absolutely is an indicator of future performance in sports. You can argue that 1 season isn't a big enough data set, but to handwave away bad prior seasons as meaningless is asinine.

RE: These espn rankings  
christian : 7/17/2021 6:39 pm : link
In comment 15307031 djm said:
Quote:
Are usually of the what have you done for me lately, variety. Little to no deep analysis or projection. These lists don’t account for what’s to come, but more what happened last year.

The giants OL could suck again but this list is still worthless trash. Stopped watch is right twice a day too. With that said I’ll bet every dollar I own the giants OL isn’t dead last this year, it probably won’t even be worst in the East.


What is the measurement you’ll use to grade that?
RE: Enough is enough already  
bLiTz 2k : 7/17/2021 6:43 pm : link
In comment 15307163 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
It’s time to wait and see??

Haha, excuse my laughter but that may be the funniest post I have read in some time....


Whats funny? We all know youre going to bitch no matter what because it makes you feel good..that on the other hand isnt funny, but rather pathetic.
Most of BBI Thought the OL Sucked Last Year...  
Jim in Tampa : 7/17/2021 8:10 pm : link
And many were annoyed that the Giants didn't add anyone to this unit. But now everyone is pissed because ESPN ranked the Giants' OL last?

Maybe they'll surprise us, but what kind of pre-season ranking for the OL did everyone expect?
RE: RE: Enough is enough already  
Jimmy Googs : 7/17/2021 8:47 pm : link
In comment 15307174 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 15307163 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


It’s time to wait and see??

Haha, excuse my laughter but that may be the funniest post I have read in some time....



Whats funny? We all know youre going to bitch no matter what because it makes you feel good..that on the other hand isnt funny, but rather pathetic.


Come on Blitzen. It was a little funny...
RE: RE: RE: If I'm Judge...  
BillT : 7/17/2021 9:03 pm : link
In comment 15307142 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15307122 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 15307014 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I'm definitely showing the entire OL unit this ranking. Any motivation for such an unproven unit can't hurt.

As for the ranking, what did anyone really expect? We really didn't add anyone this offseason and seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year. We may not be last, but we are closer to last that middle of the pack...right now.


We “seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year.” What a total crock. We’re committed to a unit that was totally rebuilt last year and includes the #4 pick in the draft, plus 3rd and 5th round picks, a promising UDFA abd a former 2nd round pick plus some decent vet backups.



I agree the OL was rebuilt last year. But the unit was also dreadful.

Those are not mutually exclusive.

So I'm not sure what the issue is. Unless you think the OL wasn't dreadful last season.

More complete BS. There were three rookies and a first year starter on that line. What they were last year, given their inexperience and youth, and what they could be this year are almost wholly unrelated. What isn’t unrelated is more BS from you.
RE: RE: ESPN..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/17/2021 10:19 pm : link
In comment 15307167 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
In comment 15306787 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


would suck at investing tactics since they seemingly believe that past performance is indeed indicative of future performance



Then why do baseball teams intentionally walk the batter in front of the pitcher? Who do NBA teams intentionally foul the worst free throw shooter? Past performance absolutely is an indicator of future performance in sports. You can argue that 1 season isn't a big enough data set, but to handwave away bad prior seasons as meaningless is asinine.


I would argue that expecting no players to progress is asinine.

But hey - examples that don't pertain from other sports I'm sure are cool to discuss in some scenario - not this one of course.

what the fuck does an intentional walk have to do with predicting that players won't progress from year to year? If you walk a player to get to some guy this year - do you do the same thing next year without any idea if the player has progressed?
I’m excited to see the young guys play  
rasbutant : 7/17/2021 10:34 pm : link
But This line is an unknown right now.

You have a bunch of young players plus two starters are gone. Luckily Judge had the foresight to get these guys some playing time. But this unit needs to gel and prove they belong. Until then we’re would you like they ranked?

Let’s just all hope that at the end of the year they are highly ranked.
Zeitler got quickly snatched up by the Ravens  
Ned In Atlanta : 7/17/2021 10:44 pm : link
and they tend to know what they’re doing. I hope I’m wrong but unless Rob sale is the second coming of Bill Callahan (which the Giants were out of the running for cause he’s at odds with Maras guy Garrett) I think bottom feeders OL is a fair projection until we’re hopefully proven wrong
The Giants  
SleepyOwl : 7/18/2021 4:12 am : link
Do NOT have an oline problem. Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart is one of the youngest and most talented units in the league. They are only going to get better as the year progresses.
Good ....  
short lease : 7/18/2021 7:05 am : link
progress is our only option.

lol

(Can't get any worse).
Lets be honest here: ESPN, Writers, Fans don't know the OL  
SGMen : 7/18/2021 7:28 am : link
ESPN is just spitting up last year's stats and a projection to write something. Are they right? Perhaps but I think more likely they are off by a good bit.

First, the ugly:
1. This OL last year often had 3 rookies starting plus a first year OC in Gates. The line was RAW and it showed.
2. There was no real camp, no pre-season games, no real off-season last year due to COVID.
3. Solder, the veteran who would have likely started RT over horrible Fleming, sat out due to COVID.
4. Columbo the OL coach had problems as we implemented a new offense, new system, and was fired. The OL improved a bit after his departure.

Second, the coaches must believe in this young group cause they didn't draft an OL early OR sign anyone of merit. We have veteran backups this year behind these young guys.

Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart

I think Thomas and Gates really step up their play this year and become assets. Remember, they have a camp this year to work on their technique and develop rapport.
Lemiuex can run block but clearly lacked the necessary technique in pass protection. He has film, reps and a camp to learn so we can only hope he is adquate at least.

Hernandez apparently came to camp "out of shape" last year? He is apparently hungry this year in his contract year and my gut says he plays well enough.

Peart is an unknown but if Solder's body & mind are back enough he could start should Peart falter. I believe Peart will be more than adequate and a big upgrade over Fleming. I based this on his off-season and physical potential. He got enough of a taste last year to know what is coming and the speed of the game.

We have also improved at TE so I suspect we'll block better. But most importantly, this is year #2 of the system and this OL staff looks to be primed to develop this young group.

If we move from 32nd overall (dead last, really bad) to say 15- 18 range) this offense will click. I truly believe this offense could have a Top 10 rushing attack if Barkley is 99.99% along with Jones who can extend drives with his legs.

This OL will surprise though it may not be an elite pass protect unit. If they stay healthy thru camp they will devleop as the season progresses much like Tamp's OL and DL did last year, hopefully peeking late when we win the division and enter the playoffs!
RE: The Giants  
bw in dc : 7/18/2021 8:56 am : link
In comment 15307384 SleepyOwl said:
Quote:
Do NOT have an oline problem. Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart is one of the youngest and most talented units in the league. They are only going to get better as the year progresses.


They are young.

But remind me when they became one of the “most talented units in the league”.

Based on what?

Having improved the receiving corps and having added a 2nd te who's  
Ira : 7/18/2021 9:12 am : link
good at receiving will help the o-line since they shouldn't have to hold their blocks as long.
RE: RE: The Giants  
Old Blue : 7/18/2021 9:18 am : link
In comment 15307408 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15307384 SleepyOwl said:


Quote:


Do NOT have an oline problem. Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart is one of the youngest and most talented units in the league. They are only going to get better as the year progresses.



They are young.

But remind me when they became one of the “most talented units in the league”.

Based on what?

I have said so many times to count that this line as is is nothing more than a Humpty Dumpty OLine, and if ANYTHING ESPN rated them to high, and all the pipe dreams wishing, and hoping will not make them any better. THEY SUCK, so all of you take your blue binders off, and see things as they are, and not what you want them to be.
RE: RE: The Giants  
BillT : 7/18/2021 9:24 am : link
In comment 15307408 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15307384 SleepyOwl said:


Quote:


Do NOT have an oline problem. Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart is one of the youngest and most talented units in the league. They are only going to get better as the year progresses.



They are young.

But remind me when they became one of the “most talented units in the league”.

Based on what?

Just the fact that you think they aren’t is probably proof enough.
RE: RE: The Giants  
Jimmy Googs : 7/18/2021 9:35 am : link
In comment 15307408 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15307384 SleepyOwl said:


Quote:


Do NOT have an oline problem. Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart is one of the youngest and most talented units in the league. They are only going to get better as the year progresses.



They are young.

But remind me when they became one of the “most talented units in the league”.

Based on what?



Nothing. Although I do subscribe that some players on the unit have a logical chance to play better over 17 games.

I would think Thomas and Gates have settled in well at their spots and have displayed enough talents that a better, more consistent performance over 17 games is very achievable. I would imagine Lemieux will show better too but not convinced it will be much as his ceiling looks to be far lower.

Peart is the biggest risk and it’s not often OTs just come into the league and handle things smoothly...he will have plenty of bumps in the road and the overall offense will feel it. I am glad he got some snaps last year but I wish it had been a whole lot more. If Solder has to replace him, that is big trouble.

Fulton/Hernandez are basically jags. And while everyone hopes for more from #34 overall pick Hernandez, his trend line is not one to pin your hopes to for a better performance. The right side of that OL will likely be pretty inconsistent each week.

RE: RE: RE: ESPN..  
Scooter185 : 7/18/2021 9:42 am : link
In comment 15307288 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15307167 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


In comment 15306787 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


would suck at investing tactics since they seemingly believe that past performance is indeed indicative of future performance



Then why do baseball teams intentionally walk the batter in front of the pitcher? Who do NBA teams intentionally foul the worst free throw shooter? Past performance absolutely is an indicator of future performance in sports. You can argue that 1 season isn't a big enough data set, but to handwave away bad prior seasons as meaningless is asinine.




I would argue that expecting no players to progress is asinine.

But hey - examples that don't pertain from other sports I'm sure are cool to discuss in some scenario - not this one of course.

what the fuck does an intentional walk have to do with predicting that players won't progress from year to year? If you walk a player to get to some guy this year - do you do the same thing next year without any idea if the player has progressed?


i never said i didn't expect progress, but that's hard to quantify before the fact. All ESPN or any of us has to make predictions for 21 is previous years data points.

as far as the intentional walk, as long as pitchers continue to bat in the NL, the batter in front of them will get walked in certain situations. 100% I can guarantee that. There's a big enough data set to know they're not getting better at the plate
A national media outlet  
Chris L. : 7/18/2021 9:47 am : link
sh_tting on the Giants...what a surprise...yawn (emphasis added).
 
christian : 7/18/2021 9:57 am : link
The Giants had arguably the worst passing blocking line in the NFL last year, including at the end of the year.

They added no significant talent and a first time NFL coach to lead the group.

The Giants are counting on the simultaneous development of three picks from one draft, and that a career disappointing guard has a renaissance.

If the Giants develop a good pass blocking unit, it’ll be pretty miraculous, and Sale and Garret should get tons of praise. But it’s a long shot.
RE: Kansas City with 4 new starters  
Old Blue : 7/18/2021 10:09 am : link
In comment 15306732 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
Ranked 6th… fucking hilarious.


What’s hilarious is all the people on here who are just wishing, and hoping that this O line will just get better, because they will have one more year of experience, and this is such a great coaching staff that they will coach them to get better. Wrong, Wrong, and Wrong again. This HUMPTY Dumpty line sucks, and all the wishing, and hoping is not going to make them any better. KC’s front office, and coaching staff was smart enough unlike the Giant’s front office, and coaching staff to seethe need to make their O line better, and they did, and the team will be better for it unlike the Giants, which did nothing, and will pay the price for it. If anything ESPN rated the Giants O line to high, because that is how bad they suck.
Doomed, I tell you, doomed!! ;-)  
Marty in Albany : 7/18/2021 10:36 am : link
;-)
One thing is for sure,  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/18/2021 11:05 am : link
no matter which side of the fence you are sitting on, the Giants Oline is going to be tested early by some very good defenses. It's not that the first five in a row are killers like last year, but the Broncos and Washington in games 1 and 2. Then the Falcons, who are more of an unknown; but then the Saints in game 4 should also test them. The Cowboys have a new Defensive Coordinator in Dan Quinn. Then they face the Rams and Aaron Donald in game 6. Then they face the Panthers. The Chiefs defense is up in game eight.

Washington, the Saints and the Rams were top 5 defenses in scoring last year. The Broncos, Rams and Chiefs also have some horses on defense. So 6 of the first 8 are going to test them, and we shall see what kind of oline they have become early on.
RE: One thing is for sure,  
Big Blue '56 : 7/18/2021 11:55 am : link
In comment 15307486 gidiefor said:
Quote:
no matter which side of the fence you are sitting on, the Giants Oline is going to be tested early by some very good defenses. It's not that the first five in a row are killers like last year, but the Broncos and Washington in games 1 and 2. Then the Falcons, who are more of an unknown; but then the Saints in game 4 should also test them. The Cowboys have a new Defensive Coordinator in Dan Quinn. Then they face the Rams and Aaron Donald in game 6. Then they face the Panthers. The Chiefs defense is up in game eight.

Washington, the Saints and the Rams were top 5 defenses in scoring last year. The Broncos, Rams and Chiefs also have some horses on defense. So 6 of the first 8 are going to test them, and we shall see what kind of oline they have become early on.


Perhaps, but with a very improved Receiving corps (and SB out of the backfield), the OL should benefit from the fact that DJ won’t have to wait 30 seconds for someone to get separation, imv
RE: RE: RE: The Giants  
bw in dc : 7/18/2021 12:08 pm : link
In comment 15307423 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 15307408 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15307384 SleepyOwl said:


Quote:


Do NOT have an oline problem. Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart is one of the youngest and most talented units in the league. They are only going to get better as the year progresses.



They are young.

But remind me when they became one of the “most talented units in the league”.

Based on what?



Just the fact that you think they aren’t is probably proof enough.


By every statistical measure you want to reference, plus the eye test if you are anti-metrics, this OL is not even close to being the "most talented" OL in the league. Right now it's a stretch to even call them average.

Obviously everyone hopes they improve and they become competent and dependable game to game.

But THE biggest gamble this offseason by Gettleman/Judge was sticking with the same OL personnel and not using the market for upgrades. Especially entering this crucial third year for Jones.
The Giants prioritized ol in last year's draft. This past off season,  
Ira : 7/18/2021 12:13 pm : link
they prioritized wr, corner and edge. I think they want another long, hard look at the young ol and see which positions still need to be improved. We have a number of premium picks next year to use should it be necessary.
RE: …  
BrettNYG10 : 7/18/2021 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15307435 christian said:
Quote:
The Giants had arguably the worst passing blocking line in the NFL last year, including at the end of the year.

They added no significant talent and a first time NFL coach to lead the group.

The Giants are counting on the simultaneous development of three picks from one draft, and that a career disappointing guard has a renaissance.

If the Giants develop a good pass blocking unit, it’ll be pretty miraculous, and Sale and Garret should get tons of praise. But it’s a long shot.


The Giants arguably got worse along the OL with the loss of Zeitler. Gates is the only one whose put together a full season of at least average starter play (and maybe Hernandez in his rookie season).

I'm most bullish on Thomas - showed improvement throughout the year, was a high draft pick, etc. Hernandez has really struggled the past two years IMO. Base case is that Lemieux (a 5th rounder) and Peart (a 3rd rounder) don't become long-term starters. I also think the depth sucks - I think betting on Solder as the swing tackle will be disastrous.

We're really hoping for a lot here to build a cohesive unit. I'm genuinely not trying to be negative here - there are plenty of positive surprises in the NFL - but we are definitely wishing and hoping on this OL.
yawn  
Victor in CT : 7/18/2021 12:19 pm : link
next up: Dak Prescott best DAL QB since Staubach.
 
christian : 7/18/2021 12:28 pm : link
I agree Brett, Thomas is a high talent player and I believe it’s very safe to assume he will develop into a good NFL left tackle.

I’m very impressed by Gates, but I think some on BBI go a little overboard with him. I think he showed to be a solid, middle of the pack center last year. That’s a damn good accomplishment for an undrafted guy at a new position.

I think you can pencil those two in as strong, no worries at all, players.

The other three positions are a crap shoot. Lemieux was liability in pass protection, Hernandez was a liability in both phases, and Peart hardly played.

I just keep coming back to the idea — with a first year NFL coach — what are the chances three guys take a big step forward?

The Giants line was abysmal the last 3 out of 4 games in 2020. To be a playoff type team they need to be much, much better. I won’t be shocked if they aren’t.
RE: RE: …  
bw in dc : 7/18/2021 12:28 pm : link
In comment 15307521 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:


The Giants arguably got worse along the OL with the loss of Zeitler. Gates is the only one whose put together a full season of at least average starter play (and maybe Hernandez in his rookie season).

I'm most bullish on Thomas - showed improvement throughout the year, was a high draft pick, etc. Hernandez has really struggled the past two years IMO. Base case is that Lemieux (a 5th rounder) and Peart (a 3rd rounder) don't become long-term starters. I also think the depth sucks - I think betting on Solder as the swing tackle will be disastrous.

We're really hoping for a lot here to build a cohesive unit. I'm genuinely not trying to be negative here - there are plenty of positive surprises in the NFL - but we are definitely wishing and hoping on this OL.


Well said. There is certainly a lot of wishing and hoping on this.

Like I wrote earlier, it's an incredible gamble going with the same OL personnel with this being such a crucial stage for Jones.

RE: …  
Old Blue : 7/18/2021 12:32 pm : link
In comment 15307528 christian said:
Quote:
I agree Brett, Thomas is a high talent player and I believe it’s very safe to assume he will develop into a good NFL left tackle.

I’m very impressed by Gates, but I think some on BBI go a little overboard with him. I think he showed to be a solid, middle of the pack center last year. That’s a damn good accomplishment for an undrafted guy at a new position.

I think you can pencil those two in as strong, no worries at all, players.

The other three positions are a crap shoot. Lemieux was liability in pass protection, Hernandez was a liability in both phases, and Peart hardly played.

I just keep coming back to the idea — with a first year NFL coach — what are the chances three guys take a big step forward?

The Giants line was abysmal the last 3 out of 4 games in 2020. To be a playoff type team they need to be much, much better. I won’t be shocked if they aren’t.


HUMPTY Dumpty cause Stone Cold says so not to mention their record their last 4 years. They SUCK.
RE: RE: RE: The Giants  
bw in dc : 7/18/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15307430 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Nothing. Although I do subscribe that some players on the unit have a logical chance to play better over 17 games.

I would think Thomas and Gates have settled in well at their spots and have displayed enough talents that a better, more consistent performance over 17 games is very achievable. I would imagine Lemieux will show better too but not convinced it will be much as his ceiling looks to be far lower.

Peart is the biggest risk and it’s not often OTs just come into the league and handle things smoothly...he will have plenty of bumps in the road and the overall offense will feel it. I am glad he got some snaps last year but I wish it had been a whole lot more. If Solder has to replace him, that is big trouble.

Fulton/Hernandez are basically jags. And while everyone hopes for more from #34 overall pick Hernandez, his trend line is not one to pin your hopes to for a better performance. The right side of that OL will likely be pretty inconsistent each week.


Thomas has to be very good to great. Otherwise, it's a horrible selection. But I think there is enough evidence to feel better about his play.

Gates was the offensive MVP last year, IMV. The question is simple with him - was last year a one hit wonder or was it a sign of things to come.

As for everyone else on the OL, I have zero confidence in any of them right now. Especially the Gs. It's like Gettleman/Judge are hoping to win the hand on the last two flops...
I am in same directional agreement on topics although  
Jimmy Googs : 7/18/2021 12:48 pm : link
don’t reach level of degree that you do with comments.

To borrow from a previous commonly used word on here, the fact the NYG didn’t do more this offseason with the interior OL personnel is a bit ponderous...
RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants  
Old Blue : 7/18/2021 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15307534 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15307430 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:



Nothing. Although I do subscribe that some players on the unit have a logical chance to play better over 17 games.

I would think Thomas and Gates have settled in well at their spots and have displayed enough talents that a better, more consistent performance over 17 games is very achievable. I would imagine Lemieux will show better too but not convinced it will be much as his ceiling looks to be far lower.

Peart is the biggest risk and it’s not often OTs just come into the league and handle things smoothly...he will have plenty of bumps in the road and the overall offense will feel it. I am glad he got some snaps last year but I wish it had been a whole lot more. If Solder has to replace him, that is big trouble.

Fulton/Hernandez are basically jags. And while everyone hopes for more from #34 overall pick Hernandez, his trend line is not one to pin your hopes to for a better performance. The right side of that OL will likely be pretty inconsistent each week.




Thomas has to be very good to great. Otherwise, it's a horrible selection. But I think there is enough evidence to feel better about his play.

Gates was the offensive MVP last year, IMV. The question is simple with him - was last year a one hit wonder or was it a sign of things to come.

As for everyone else on the OL, I have zero confidence in any of them right now. Especially the Gs. It's like Gettleman/Judge are hoping to win the hand on the last two flops...


KC proved in the last SB even with all their offensive weapons, which the Giants don’t have if you don’t have a decent O line your offense will suck. The Giants have done nothing to improve the line that sucked last year, so hopefully all the money they spent this past off season won’t be for nothing. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants  
BillT : 7/18/2021 1:10 pm : link
In comment 15307538 Old Blue said:
Quote:
. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.

This is a total load of crap. They spent significant resources last year to add talent to the OL. The line they put out last year was 4/5th rookies or first year starters. Having confidence in that group to progress is perfectly reasonable given the talent they acquired. I don’t know how this all works out and neither do you. But it is not bad judgement or bad coaching.
Old Blue  
Lines of Scrimmage : 7/18/2021 1:15 pm : link
KC is a different scenario. They had the weapons and speed and then had significant injuries on the OL.

The Giants did not have great weapons (and one was injured in game 2).

People often talk about getting the QB weapons or a running game. Well weapons have a huge impact on the OL. Gilbride talked about this as did Jim Johnson (Eagles DC) regarding Plax. They added Galladay and don't be surprised if Toney takes some of the underneath stuff to the EZ.

Game one last year Giants rushed for 20 yards (Bark; 15 att/6 yds). Tomlin clearly took SB away and what did the Giants have? So if teams employ that strategy the hope is you have Galladay/Toney make defenses pay. That will open the running game.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants  
Old Blue : 7/18/2021 1:36 pm : link
In comment 15307551 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 15307538 Old Blue said:


Quote:


. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.


This is a total load of crap. They spent significant resources last year to add talent to the OL. The line they put out last year was 4/5th rookies or first year starters. Having confidence in that group to progress is perfectly reasonable given the talent they acquired. I don’t know how this all works out and neither do you. But it is not bad judgement or bad coaching.


They added players to the O line last year, but they didn’t add talent, and I don’t care if they are all rookies, or 10 year veterans the bottom line is they suck, and if you think it is not bad judgement to fix again then you must want another losing team for how many years in a row now.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/18/2021 2:12 pm : link
In comment 15307567 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15307551 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 15307538 Old Blue said:


Quote:


. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.


This is a total load of crap. They spent significant resources last year to add talent to the OL. The line they put out last year was 4/5th rookies or first year starters. Having confidence in that group to progress is perfectly reasonable given the talent they acquired. I don’t know how this all works out and neither do you. But it is not bad judgement or bad coaching.



They added players to the O line last year, but they didn’t add talent, and I don’t care if they are all rookies, or 10 year veterans the bottom line is they suck, and if you think it is not bad judgement to fix again then you must want another losing team for how many years in a row now.


Really insightful and piercing analysis here that differs with just about every NFL talent evaluator with even a modicum of knowledge. You must be a joy at cocktail time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants  
Old Blue : 7/18/2021 2:19 pm : link
In comment 15307587 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 15307567 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15307551 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 15307538 Old Blue said:


Quote:


. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.


This is a total load of crap. They spent significant resources last year to add talent to the OL. The line they put out last year was 4/5th rookies or first year starters. Having confidence in that group to progress is perfectly reasonable given the talent they acquired. I don’t know how this all works out and neither do you. But it is not bad judgement or bad coaching.



They added players to the O line last year, but they didn’t add talent, and I don’t care if they are all rookies, or 10 year veterans the bottom line is they suck, and if you think it is not bad judgement to fix again then you must want another losing team for how many years in a row now.



Really insightful and piercing analysis here that differs with just about every NFL talent evaluator with even a modicum of knowledge. You must be a joy at cocktail time.


The teams record, and the O lines play speak for themselves, and that is why ESPN rated them to high.
NFC East Division finish in 2020 predetermining 2021 predictions?  
royhobbs7 : 7/18/2021 2:34 pm : link
WTF finished first in the division in 2020 and are considered to be front-runners for the division crown in 2021. No doubt that they have the best divisional defense among the other three (Giants might be a close 2nd - much better potential talent in secondary).

My question is: Had Barkley and Prescott been healthy last year, who would have won the NFL Least? Given that it wouldn't have been the Redskins as they won the division by the slightest margin, would either the Cowboys or Giants be considered the predominant division favorites for 2021 had either won the divisional crown last year?

IMHO, (and yes, the health of the aforementioned is a big "IF" for 2021 and who can predict further injuries), the division is a toss-up between the 3 aforementioned teams with the Eagles winding up a distant 4th.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants  
BillT : 7/18/2021 2:56 pm : link
In comment 15307567 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15307551 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 15307538 Old Blue said:


Quote:


. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.


This is a total load of crap. They spent significant resources last year to add talent to the OL. The line they put out last year was 4/5th rookies or first year starters. Having confidence in that group to progress is perfectly reasonable given the talent they acquired. I don’t know how this all works out and neither do you. But it is not bad judgement or bad coaching.



They added players to the O line last year, but they didn’t add talent, and I don’t care if they are all rookies, or 10 year veterans the bottom line is they suck, and if you think it is not bad judgement to fix again then you must want another losing team for how many years in a row now.

“I don’t care if they are all rookies, or 10 year veterans the bottom line is they suck,”

Or in other words this is a total load of crap. You know jack shit about their talent and obviously don’t care. This is just pathetic tough guy talk. Get a life.
ESPN???? Like they predicted WTF to win the division last year?  
royhobbs7 : 7/18/2021 2:56 pm : link
They profess to believe that the Giants O-Line is quite porous and inefficient. Well, I got news for the so-called experts: WTF's O-Line is porous as well. Br Scherff is no-doubt a stud. But the rest of the Redskins O-Line (they have questions at both OT positions and our old friend Erick Flowers is their LG). And that is a line that is going to make holes for Gibson and protect Fitzmagic? I'll take our line over theirs, any day!!!!! Call me a homer, but you'll see.

And if Dallas' O-Line suffers similar injuries as last year, they will also have difficulty keeping Dak from running for his life. Yes, Z Martin is a top 3 OG in the NFL and Ty Smith is a top OT when healthy. He claims to feel as well as he has in years, but he's missed 26 games over the past 5 years due to neck surgery). The other members of their O-Line (La'el Collins, Ty Biadasz & Cn Williams are average at best if they can sustain their health this year).

The Eagles O-Line is probably the best in the division but they have also suffered significant injuries last year (Dillard, Br Brooks & Ln Johnson).

Our young line will make mistakes this year, no doubt. But the upside is greater than all of the other O-Lines in the NFC East (no longer the NFC Least!).
Let's make a comparison  
royhobbs7 : 7/18/2021 3:04 pm : link
Although he has shown improvement in being much more efficient @ OG than OT who would you rather have at OLG,
Erick Flowers or Shane Lemieux?
RE: Let's make a comparison  
Old Blue : 7/18/2021 3:06 pm : link
In comment 15307613 royhobbs7 said:
Quote:
Although he has shown improvement in being much more efficient @ OG than OT who would you rather have at OLG,
Erick Flowers or Shane Lemieux?


It is so bad we are getting down to this? How about neither one. They both SUCK.
RE: RE: Let's make a comparison  
BillT : 7/18/2021 3:23 pm : link
In comment 15307614 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15307613 royhobbs7 said:


Quote:


Although he has shown improvement in being much more efficient @ OG than OT who would you rather have at OLG,
Erick Flowers or Shane Lemieux?



It is so bad we are getting down to this? How about neither one. They both SUCK.

They don’t suck as much as you do.
RE: RE: RE: Let's make a comparison  
Old Blue : 7/18/2021 3:35 pm : link
In comment 15307622 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 15307614 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15307613 royhobbs7 said:


Quote:


Although he has shown improvement in being much more efficient @ OG than OT who would you rather have at OLG,
Erick Flowers or Shane Lemieux?



It is so bad we are getting down to this? How about neither one. They both SUCK.


They don’t suck as much as you do.


Love the kind words, but doesn’t change the outcome.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Let's make a comparison  
BillT : 7/18/2021 4:08 pm : link
In comment 15307626 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15307622 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 15307614 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15307613 royhobbs7 said:


Quote:


Although he has shown improvement in being much more efficient @ OG than OT who would you rather have at OLG,
Erick Flowers or Shane Lemieux?



It is so bad we are getting down to this? How about neither one. They both SUCK.


They don’t suck as much as you do.



Love the kind words, but doesn’t change the outcome.

Ooooo….Tough guy has spoken. So impressed.
Nate Solder is slated to be a backup to start the season  
GeofromNJ : 7/18/2021 4:36 pm : link
Yet word is that Solder is healthy compared to 2019 and in a better frame of mind regarding his son, so one would think his play would be much improved. If Solder's play is superior to 2019 and Solder is only a backup, maybe we Giants fans have reason to be somewhat optimistic regarding the starting five. And for this reason, I am optimistic.
RE: Nate Solder is slated to be a backup to start the season  
Jimmy Googs : 7/18/2021 5:09 pm : link
In comment 15307651 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
Yet word is that Solder is healthy compared to 2019 and in a better frame of mind regarding his son, so one would think his play would be much improved. If Solder's play is superior to 2019 and Solder is only a backup, maybe we Giants fans have reason to be somewhat optimistic regarding the starting five. And for this reason, I am optimistic.


Of all the reasons fans can conjure up in being optimistic about the Offensive Line this season, this shouldn't be one of them...
RE: RE: Nate Solder is slated to be a backup to start the season  
Old Blue : 7/18/2021 5:53 pm : link
In comment 15307677 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15307651 GeofromNJ said:


Quote:


Yet word is that Solder is healthy compared to 2019 and in a better frame of mind regarding his son, so one would think his play would be much improved. If Solder's play is superior to 2019 and Solder is only a backup, maybe we Giants fans have reason to be somewhat optimistic regarding the starting five. And for this reason, I am optimistic.



Of all the reasons fans can conjure up in being optimistic about the Offensive Line this season, this shouldn't be one of them...


That’s the sad part about this O line is that Solder may be better than some of the so called starters.
32nd?  
Gman11 : 7/18/2021 7:49 pm : link
Good news! They can't get worse!

I'm sure people remember the Mets' jingle in the '60s that ended with "We've got no place to go, but up."
Considering the methodology, last place was the only possible result.  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/19/2021 4:44 am : link
Quote:
To achieve this we used a regression model that considers every projected starter's individual pass block win rate over the past two seasons. Players who did not play in either or both seasons (including rookies) were assigned a below-average PBWR for their position, and anyone who failed to meet the qualifying threshold had their win rate regressed toward that below-average target. (Bold italics added)

The only 2020 Giant lineman who might have achieved even a mediocre score by that method was Zeitler, who is gone.

The sole holdover who was an NFL starter in 2019 is Hernandez. He started only seven games last year, was on the field for just 52% of the Giants' offensive snaps, and probably played his best ball in 2018.

Gates saw substantial snaps in four games in 2019, and didn't move to center until 2020. The other three starters were in college in 2019. All three struggled with pass protection for much of their rookie seasons. Peart played just 15% of the offensive snaps. Lemieux played 50%, and was mostly awful in the passing game. Thomas improved markedly as the season progressed, but the scoring method wouldn't reflect that upward trend.

The method may be good or bad. My point is just that there's no way the Giants' pass protection could look anything but dreadful when viewed through that particular, retrospective lens.
.  
Gruber : 7/19/2021 8:34 am : link
In the games leading up to his injury, Barkley was getting next to nowhere because of the weakness of the OL. I know they've improved and they're young, and I have great faith in Joe Judge, but that OL needs to be more than middling, it needs to be good to make Saquon into a legitimate threat. A potent offensive line making holes for Barkley to exploit changes everything. It really does.
RE: .  
Victor in CT : 7/19/2021 1:43 pm : link
In comment 15307881 Gruber said:
Quote:
In the games leading up to his injury, Barkley was getting next to nowhere because of the weakness of the OL. I know they've improved and they're young, and I have great faith in Joe Judge, but that OL needs to be more than middling, it needs to be good to make Saquon into a legitimate threat. A potent offensive line making holes for Barkley to exploit changes everything. It really does.


This is a good point, but I would also consider this: Nothing is in a vacuum. The additions of Galloway, Toney, Ross, Rudolf should have a positive impact on the OL in that defenses should not be able to stack the box and ignore outside and deep routes anymore, meaning fewer bodies available at the LOS. Rudolf also will have to be accounted for in the middle of the field. This should help the OL.
RE: .  
bLiTz 2k : 7/19/2021 11:07 pm : link
In comment 15307881 Gruber said:
Quote:
In the games leading up to his injury, Barkley was getting next to nowhere because of the weakness of the OL. I know they've improved and they're young, and I have great faith in Joe Judge, but that OL needs to be more than middling, it needs to be good to make Saquon into a legitimate threat. A potent offensive line making holes for Barkley to exploit changes everything. It really does.


It was the first 5 quarters of football for the unit before Barkley went down....against the Steelers and a tough Bears front. If Barkley was healthy the entire season there's a lot of those Freeman, Gallman runs that go for 6.
RE: RE: .  
giantstock : 7/20/2021 2:35 am : link
In comment 15308402 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 15307881 Gruber said:


Quote:


In the games leading up to his injury, Barkley was getting next to nowhere because of the weakness of the OL. I know they've improved and they're young, and I have great faith in Joe Judge, but that OL needs to be more than middling, it needs to be good to make Saquon into a legitimate threat. A potent offensive line making holes for Barkley to exploit changes everything. It really does.



It was the first 5 quarters of football for the unit before Barkley went down....against the Steelers and a tough Bears front. If Barkley was healthy the entire season there's a lot of those Freeman, Gallman runs that go for 6.


Don't you think that in-game preparation that the defense didn't give a shit about Gallman?

Secondly, at the end of the season overall the Giants played some downright rotten football teams. Is that what you are counting on this year?
RE: RE: RE: .  
bLiTz 2k : 7/20/2021 7:16 am : link
In comment 15308463 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15308402 bLiTz 2k said:


Quote:


In comment 15307881 Gruber said:


Quote:


In the games leading up to his injury, Barkley was getting next to nowhere because of the weakness of the OL. I know they've improved and they're young, and I have great faith in Joe Judge, but that OL needs to be more than middling, it needs to be good to make Saquon into a legitimate threat. A potent offensive line making holes for Barkley to exploit changes everything. It really does.



It was the first 5 quarters of football for the unit before Barkley went down....against the Steelers and a tough Bears front. If Barkley was healthy the entire season there's a lot of those Freeman, Gallman runs that go for 6.



Don't you think that in-game preparation that the defense didn't give a shit about Gallman?

Secondly, at the end of the season overall the Giants played some downright rotten football teams. Is that what you are counting on this year?


No quite the opposite...the Giants saw more single high man blitz coverages than any team in the league last year.

Instead of relying on hyperbole, look at the analytics. Teams didn't respect the deep/intermediate pass whatsoever and faced nothing but stacked fronts on a consistent basis.

And to your point about rotten football teams...

You think Seattle, Arizona, Cleveland, Baltimore have rotten front 7s? No offense, but where do you guys come up with this stuff?
ESPN...  
DannyDimes : 7/20/2021 7:44 am : link
ESPN and the other outlets regurgitate the same garbage for every team. Let's be honest, they don't know any team to the depths of that team's serious fanbase. So all of the media cherry-picks the easy stuff. They all do it.

RE: RE: RE: .  
FatMan in Charlotte : 7/20/2021 8:27 am : link
In comment 15308463 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15308402 bLiTz 2k said:


Quote:


In comment 15307881 Gruber said:


Quote:


In the games leading up to his injury, Barkley was getting next to nowhere because of the weakness of the OL. I know they've improved and they're young, and I have great faith in Joe Judge, but that OL needs to be more than middling, it needs to be good to make Saquon into a legitimate threat. A potent offensive line making holes for Barkley to exploit changes everything. It really does.



It was the first 5 quarters of football for the unit before Barkley went down....against the Steelers and a tough Bears front. If Barkley was healthy the entire season there's a lot of those Freeman, Gallman runs that go for 6.



Don't you think that in-game preparation that the defense didn't give a shit about Gallman?

Secondly, at the end of the season overall the Giants played some downright rotten football teams. Is that what you are counting on this year?


Who were the rotten football teams the Giants played at the end of last season? Their last 5 games were Seattle, Arizona, Cleveland, Baltimore and Dallas.

Arguably, Dallas was the worst team and 3 of them made the playoffs.

Are we back to the old tactic of making up shit to try and bolster a weak argument?
Worst or not  
jeff57 : 7/20/2021 8:44 am : link
Going into the season it's certainly near the bottom.
RE: Worst or not  
Jimmy Googs : 7/20/2021 9:43 am : link
In comment 15308489 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Going into the season it's certainly near the bottom.


The rare valid point on a BBI thread...
Valid ...because??  
Grizz99 : 7/22/2021 9:29 am : link
Because it echoes your need to denigrate The Giants and ignore something special that's happening.
Go...  
Brown_Hornet : 7/22/2021 9:54 am : link
...Giants!
doubters - ( New Window )
It's not to denigrate the Giants  
Jimmy Googs : 7/22/2021 9:54 am : link
it's for someone like yourself...
RE: Considering the methodology, last place was the only possible result.  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/22/2021 11:14 am : link
In comment 15307844 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:


Quote:


To achieve this we used a regression model that considers every projected starter's individual pass block win rate over the past two seasons. Players who did not play in either or both seasons (including rookies) were assigned a below-average PBWR for their position, and anyone who failed to meet the qualifying threshold had their win rate regressed toward that below-average target. (Bold italics added)


The only 2020 Giant lineman who might have achieved even a mediocre score by that method was Zeitler, who is gone.

The sole holdover who was an NFL starter in 2019 is Hernandez. He started only seven games last year, was on the field for just 52% of the Giants' offensive snaps, and probably played his best ball in 2018.

Gates saw substantial snaps in four games in 2019, and didn't move to center until 2020. The other three starters were in college in 2019. All three struggled with pass protection for much of their rookie seasons. Peart played just 15% of the offensive snaps. Lemieux played 50%, and was mostly awful in the passing game. Thomas improved markedly as the season progressed, but the scoring method wouldn't reflect that upward trend.

The method may be good or bad. My point is just that there's no way the Giants' pass protection could look anything but dreadful when viewed through that particular, retrospective lens.


Blogs -- good point
RE: Go...  
Gatorade Dunk : 7/27/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15310057 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...Giants! doubters - ( New Window )


Bumping the OP for you.

Link - ( New Window )
Back to the Corner