32. New York Giants
Projected PBWR: 52%
Projected offensive line: Andrew Thomas (56th), Shane Lemieux (69th), Nick Gates (34th), Will Hernandez (31st), Matt Peart (DNQ)
So much for general manager Dave Gettleman's grand plan for the offensive line. The rookie Thomas performed well according to our run blocking metric, but he was a liability as a pass protector -- though he did battle an ankle injury that required surgery after the season.
In what could be a make-or-break season for third-year quarterback Daniel Jones, Gettleman got him more receiving help, but Jones is going to be on the run behind this O-Line.
Discuss.
Then why do baseball teams intentionally walk the batter in front of the pitcher? Who do NBA teams intentionally foul the worst free throw shooter? Past performance absolutely is an indicator of future performance in sports. You can argue that 1 season isn't a big enough data set, but to handwave away bad prior seasons as meaningless is asinine.
The giants OL could suck again but this list is still worthless trash. Stopped watch is right twice a day too. With that said I’ll bet every dollar I own the giants OL isn’t dead last this year, it probably won’t even be worst in the East.
What is the measurement you’ll use to grade that?
Haha, excuse my laughter but that may be the funniest post I have read in some time....
Whats funny? We all know youre going to bitch no matter what because it makes you feel good..that on the other hand isnt funny, but rather pathetic.
Maybe they'll surprise us, but what kind of pre-season ranking for the OL did everyone expect?
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It’s time to wait and see??
Haha, excuse my laughter but that may be the funniest post I have read in some time....
Whats funny? We all know youre going to bitch no matter what because it makes you feel good..that on the other hand isnt funny, but rather pathetic.
Come on Blitzen. It was a little funny...
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In comment 15307014 bw in dc said:
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I'm definitely showing the entire OL unit this ranking. Any motivation for such an unproven unit can't hurt.
As for the ranking, what did anyone really expect? We really didn't add anyone this offseason and seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year. We may not be last, but we are closer to last that middle of the pack...right now.
We “seem 100% committed to a unit that was dreadful last year.” What a total crock. We’re committed to a unit that was totally rebuilt last year and includes the #4 pick in the draft, plus 3rd and 5th round picks, a promising UDFA abd a former 2nd round pick plus some decent vet backups.
I agree the OL was rebuilt last year. But the unit was also dreadful.
Those are not mutually exclusive.
So I'm not sure what the issue is. Unless you think the OL wasn't dreadful last season.
More complete BS. There were three rookies and a first year starter on that line. What they were last year, given their inexperience and youth, and what they could be this year are almost wholly unrelated. What isn’t unrelated is more BS from you.
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would suck at investing tactics since they seemingly believe that past performance is indeed indicative of future performance
Then why do baseball teams intentionally walk the batter in front of the pitcher? Who do NBA teams intentionally foul the worst free throw shooter? Past performance absolutely is an indicator of future performance in sports. You can argue that 1 season isn't a big enough data set, but to handwave away bad prior seasons as meaningless is asinine.
I would argue that expecting no players to progress is asinine.
But hey - examples that don't pertain from other sports I'm sure are cool to discuss in some scenario - not this one of course.
what the fuck does an intentional walk have to do with predicting that players won't progress from year to year? If you walk a player to get to some guy this year - do you do the same thing next year without any idea if the player has progressed?
You have a bunch of young players plus two starters are gone. Luckily Judge had the foresight to get these guys some playing time. But this unit needs to gel and prove they belong. Until then we’re would you like they ranked?
Let’s just all hope that at the end of the year they are highly ranked.
lol
(Can't get any worse).
First, the ugly:
1. This OL last year often had 3 rookies starting plus a first year OC in Gates. The line was RAW and it showed.
2. There was no real camp, no pre-season games, no real off-season last year due to COVID.
3. Solder, the veteran who would have likely started RT over horrible Fleming, sat out due to COVID.
4. Columbo the OL coach had problems as we implemented a new offense, new system, and was fired. The OL improved a bit after his departure.
Second, the coaches must believe in this young group cause they didn't draft an OL early OR sign anyone of merit. We have veteran backups this year behind these young guys.
Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart
I think Thomas and Gates really step up their play this year and become assets. Remember, they have a camp this year to work on their technique and develop rapport.
Lemiuex can run block but clearly lacked the necessary technique in pass protection. He has film, reps and a camp to learn so we can only hope he is adquate at least.
Hernandez apparently came to camp "out of shape" last year? He is apparently hungry this year in his contract year and my gut says he plays well enough.
Peart is an unknown but if Solder's body & mind are back enough he could start should Peart falter. I believe Peart will be more than adequate and a big upgrade over Fleming. I based this on his off-season and physical potential. He got enough of a taste last year to know what is coming and the speed of the game.
We have also improved at TE so I suspect we'll block better. But most importantly, this is year #2 of the system and this OL staff looks to be primed to develop this young group.
If we move from 32nd overall (dead last, really bad) to say 15- 18 range) this offense will click. I truly believe this offense could have a Top 10 rushing attack if Barkley is 99.99% along with Jones who can extend drives with his legs.
This OL will surprise though it may not be an elite pass protect unit. If they stay healthy thru camp they will devleop as the season progresses much like Tamp's OL and DL did last year, hopefully peeking late when we win the division and enter the playoffs!
They are young.
But remind me when they became one of the “most talented units in the league”.
Based on what?
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Do NOT have an oline problem. Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart is one of the youngest and most talented units in the league. They are only going to get better as the year progresses.
They are young.
But remind me when they became one of the “most talented units in the league”.
Based on what?
I have said so many times to count that this line as is is nothing more than a Humpty Dumpty OLine, and if ANYTHING ESPN rated them to high, and all the pipe dreams wishing, and hoping will not make them any better. THEY SUCK, so all of you take your blue binders off, and see things as they are, and not what you want them to be.
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Do NOT have an oline problem. Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart is one of the youngest and most talented units in the league. They are only going to get better as the year progresses.
They are young.
But remind me when they became one of the “most talented units in the league”.
Based on what?
Just the fact that you think they aren’t is probably proof enough.
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Do NOT have an oline problem. Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart is one of the youngest and most talented units in the league. They are only going to get better as the year progresses.
They are young.
But remind me when they became one of the “most talented units in the league”.
Based on what?
Nothing. Although I do subscribe that some players on the unit have a logical chance to play better over 17 games.
I would think Thomas and Gates have settled in well at their spots and have displayed enough talents that a better, more consistent performance over 17 games is very achievable. I would imagine Lemieux will show better too but not convinced it will be much as his ceiling looks to be far lower.
Peart is the biggest risk and it’s not often OTs just come into the league and handle things smoothly...he will have plenty of bumps in the road and the overall offense will feel it. I am glad he got some snaps last year but I wish it had been a whole lot more. If Solder has to replace him, that is big trouble.
Fulton/Hernandez are basically jags. And while everyone hopes for more from #34 overall pick Hernandez, his trend line is not one to pin your hopes to for a better performance. The right side of that OL will likely be pretty inconsistent each week.
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In comment 15306787 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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would suck at investing tactics since they seemingly believe that past performance is indeed indicative of future performance
Then why do baseball teams intentionally walk the batter in front of the pitcher? Who do NBA teams intentionally foul the worst free throw shooter? Past performance absolutely is an indicator of future performance in sports. You can argue that 1 season isn't a big enough data set, but to handwave away bad prior seasons as meaningless is asinine.
I would argue that expecting no players to progress is asinine.
But hey - examples that don't pertain from other sports I'm sure are cool to discuss in some scenario - not this one of course.
what the fuck does an intentional walk have to do with predicting that players won't progress from year to year? If you walk a player to get to some guy this year - do you do the same thing next year without any idea if the player has progressed?
i never said i didn't expect progress, but that's hard to quantify before the fact. All ESPN or any of us has to make predictions for 21 is previous years data points.
as far as the intentional walk, as long as pitchers continue to bat in the NL, the batter in front of them will get walked in certain situations. 100% I can guarantee that. There's a big enough data set to know they're not getting better at the plate
They added no significant talent and a first time NFL coach to lead the group.
The Giants are counting on the simultaneous development of three picks from one draft, and that a career disappointing guard has a renaissance.
If the Giants develop a good pass blocking unit, it’ll be pretty miraculous, and Sale and Garret should get tons of praise. But it’s a long shot.
What’s hilarious is all the people on here who are just wishing, and hoping that this O line will just get better, because they will have one more year of experience, and this is such a great coaching staff that they will coach them to get better. Wrong, Wrong, and Wrong again. This HUMPTY Dumpty line sucks, and all the wishing, and hoping is not going to make them any better. KC’s front office, and coaching staff was smart enough unlike the Giant’s front office, and coaching staff to seethe need to make their O line better, and they did, and the team will be better for it unlike the Giants, which did nothing, and will pay the price for it. If anything ESPN rated the Giants O line to high, because that is how bad they suck.
Washington, the Saints and the Rams were top 5 defenses in scoring last year. The Broncos, Rams and Chiefs also have some horses on defense. So 6 of the first 8 are going to test them, and we shall see what kind of oline they have become early on.
Washington, the Saints and the Rams were top 5 defenses in scoring last year. The Broncos, Rams and Chiefs also have some horses on defense. So 6 of the first 8 are going to test them, and we shall see what kind of oline they have become early on.
Perhaps, but with a very improved Receiving corps (and SB out of the backfield), the OL should benefit from the fact that DJ won’t have to wait 30 seconds for someone to get separation, imv
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In comment 15307384 SleepyOwl said:
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Do NOT have an oline problem. Thomas, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart is one of the youngest and most talented units in the league. They are only going to get better as the year progresses.
They are young.
But remind me when they became one of the “most talented units in the league”.
Based on what?
Just the fact that you think they aren’t is probably proof enough.
By every statistical measure you want to reference, plus the eye test if you are anti-metrics, this OL is not even close to being the "most talented" OL in the league. Right now it's a stretch to even call them average.
Obviously everyone hopes they improve and they become competent and dependable game to game.
But THE biggest gamble this offseason by Gettleman/Judge was sticking with the same OL personnel and not using the market for upgrades. Especially entering this crucial third year for Jones.
They added no significant talent and a first time NFL coach to lead the group.
The Giants are counting on the simultaneous development of three picks from one draft, and that a career disappointing guard has a renaissance.
If the Giants develop a good pass blocking unit, it’ll be pretty miraculous, and Sale and Garret should get tons of praise. But it’s a long shot.
The Giants arguably got worse along the OL with the loss of Zeitler. Gates is the only one whose put together a full season of at least average starter play (and maybe Hernandez in his rookie season).
I'm most bullish on Thomas - showed improvement throughout the year, was a high draft pick, etc. Hernandez has really struggled the past two years IMO. Base case is that Lemieux (a 5th rounder) and Peart (a 3rd rounder) don't become long-term starters. I also think the depth sucks - I think betting on Solder as the swing tackle will be disastrous.
We're really hoping for a lot here to build a cohesive unit. I'm genuinely not trying to be negative here - there are plenty of positive surprises in the NFL - but we are definitely wishing and hoping on this OL.
I’m very impressed by Gates, but I think some on BBI go a little overboard with him. I think he showed to be a solid, middle of the pack center last year. That’s a damn good accomplishment for an undrafted guy at a new position.
I think you can pencil those two in as strong, no worries at all, players.
The other three positions are a crap shoot. Lemieux was liability in pass protection, Hernandez was a liability in both phases, and Peart hardly played.
I just keep coming back to the idea — with a first year NFL coach — what are the chances three guys take a big step forward?
The Giants line was abysmal the last 3 out of 4 games in 2020. To be a playoff type team they need to be much, much better. I won’t be shocked if they aren’t.
The Giants arguably got worse along the OL with the loss of Zeitler. Gates is the only one whose put together a full season of at least average starter play (and maybe Hernandez in his rookie season).
I'm most bullish on Thomas - showed improvement throughout the year, was a high draft pick, etc. Hernandez has really struggled the past two years IMO. Base case is that Lemieux (a 5th rounder) and Peart (a 3rd rounder) don't become long-term starters. I also think the depth sucks - I think betting on Solder as the swing tackle will be disastrous.
We're really hoping for a lot here to build a cohesive unit. I'm genuinely not trying to be negative here - there are plenty of positive surprises in the NFL - but we are definitely wishing and hoping on this OL.
Well said. There is certainly a lot of wishing and hoping on this.
Like I wrote earlier, it's an incredible gamble going with the same OL personnel with this being such a crucial stage for Jones.
I’m very impressed by Gates, but I think some on BBI go a little overboard with him. I think he showed to be a solid, middle of the pack center last year. That’s a damn good accomplishment for an undrafted guy at a new position.
I think you can pencil those two in as strong, no worries at all, players.
The other three positions are a crap shoot. Lemieux was liability in pass protection, Hernandez was a liability in both phases, and Peart hardly played.
I just keep coming back to the idea — with a first year NFL coach — what are the chances three guys take a big step forward?
The Giants line was abysmal the last 3 out of 4 games in 2020. To be a playoff type team they need to be much, much better. I won’t be shocked if they aren’t.
HUMPTY Dumpty cause Stone Cold says so not to mention their record their last 4 years. They SUCK.
Nothing. Although I do subscribe that some players on the unit have a logical chance to play better over 17 games.
I would think Thomas and Gates have settled in well at their spots and have displayed enough talents that a better, more consistent performance over 17 games is very achievable. I would imagine Lemieux will show better too but not convinced it will be much as his ceiling looks to be far lower.
Peart is the biggest risk and it’s not often OTs just come into the league and handle things smoothly...he will have plenty of bumps in the road and the overall offense will feel it. I am glad he got some snaps last year but I wish it had been a whole lot more. If Solder has to replace him, that is big trouble.
Fulton/Hernandez are basically jags. And while everyone hopes for more from #34 overall pick Hernandez, his trend line is not one to pin your hopes to for a better performance. The right side of that OL will likely be pretty inconsistent each week.
Thomas has to be very good to great. Otherwise, it's a horrible selection. But I think there is enough evidence to feel better about his play.
Gates was the offensive MVP last year, IMV. The question is simple with him - was last year a one hit wonder or was it a sign of things to come.
As for everyone else on the OL, I have zero confidence in any of them right now. Especially the Gs. It's like Gettleman/Judge are hoping to win the hand on the last two flops...
To borrow from a previous commonly used word on here, the fact the NYG didn’t do more this offseason with the interior OL personnel is a bit ponderous...
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Nothing. Although I do subscribe that some players on the unit have a logical chance to play better over 17 games.
I would think Thomas and Gates have settled in well at their spots and have displayed enough talents that a better, more consistent performance over 17 games is very achievable. I would imagine Lemieux will show better too but not convinced it will be much as his ceiling looks to be far lower.
Peart is the biggest risk and it’s not often OTs just come into the league and handle things smoothly...he will have plenty of bumps in the road and the overall offense will feel it. I am glad he got some snaps last year but I wish it had been a whole lot more. If Solder has to replace him, that is big trouble.
Fulton/Hernandez are basically jags. And while everyone hopes for more from #34 overall pick Hernandez, his trend line is not one to pin your hopes to for a better performance. The right side of that OL will likely be pretty inconsistent each week.
Thomas has to be very good to great. Otherwise, it's a horrible selection. But I think there is enough evidence to feel better about his play.
Gates was the offensive MVP last year, IMV. The question is simple with him - was last year a one hit wonder or was it a sign of things to come.
As for everyone else on the OL, I have zero confidence in any of them right now. Especially the Gs. It's like Gettleman/Judge are hoping to win the hand on the last two flops...
KC proved in the last SB even with all their offensive weapons, which the Giants don’t have if you don’t have a decent O line your offense will suck. The Giants have done nothing to improve the line that sucked last year, so hopefully all the money they spent this past off season won’t be for nothing. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.
This is a total load of crap. They spent significant resources last year to add talent to the OL. The line they put out last year was 4/5th rookies or first year starters. Having confidence in that group to progress is perfectly reasonable given the talent they acquired. I don’t know how this all works out and neither do you. But it is not bad judgement or bad coaching.
The Giants did not have great weapons (and one was injured in game 2).
People often talk about getting the QB weapons or a running game. Well weapons have a huge impact on the OL. Gilbride talked about this as did Jim Johnson (Eagles DC) regarding Plax. They added Galladay and don't be surprised if Toney takes some of the underneath stuff to the EZ.
Game one last year Giants rushed for 20 yards (Bark; 15 att/6 yds). Tomlin clearly took SB away and what did the Giants have? So if teams employ that strategy the hope is you have Galladay/Toney make defenses pay. That will open the running game.
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. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.
This is a total load of crap. They spent significant resources last year to add talent to the OL. The line they put out last year was 4/5th rookies or first year starters. Having confidence in that group to progress is perfectly reasonable given the talent they acquired. I don’t know how this all works out and neither do you. But it is not bad judgement or bad coaching.
They added players to the O line last year, but they didn’t add talent, and I don’t care if they are all rookies, or 10 year veterans the bottom line is they suck, and if you think it is not bad judgement to fix again then you must want another losing team for how many years in a row now.
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In comment 15307538 Old Blue said:
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. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.
This is a total load of crap. They spent significant resources last year to add talent to the OL. The line they put out last year was 4/5th rookies or first year starters. Having confidence in that group to progress is perfectly reasonable given the talent they acquired. I don’t know how this all works out and neither do you. But it is not bad judgement or bad coaching.
They added players to the O line last year, but they didn’t add talent, and I don’t care if they are all rookies, or 10 year veterans the bottom line is they suck, and if you think it is not bad judgement to fix again then you must want another losing team for how many years in a row now.
Really insightful and piercing analysis here that differs with just about every NFL talent evaluator with even a modicum of knowledge. You must be a joy at cocktail time.
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In comment 15307551 BillT said:
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In comment 15307538 Old Blue said:
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. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.
This is a total load of crap. They spent significant resources last year to add talent to the OL. The line they put out last year was 4/5th rookies or first year starters. Having confidence in that group to progress is perfectly reasonable given the talent they acquired. I don’t know how this all works out and neither do you. But it is not bad judgement or bad coaching.
They added players to the O line last year, but they didn’t add talent, and I don’t care if they are all rookies, or 10 year veterans the bottom line is they suck, and if you think it is not bad judgement to fix again then you must want another losing team for how many years in a row now.
Really insightful and piercing analysis here that differs with just about every NFL talent evaluator with even a modicum of knowledge. You must be a joy at cocktail time.
The teams record, and the O lines play speak for themselves, and that is why ESPN rated them to high.
My question is: Had Barkley and Prescott been healthy last year, who would have won the NFL Least? Given that it wouldn't have been the Redskins as they won the division by the slightest margin, would either the Cowboys or Giants be considered the predominant division favorites for 2021 had either won the divisional crown last year?
IMHO, (and yes, the health of the aforementioned is a big "IF" for 2021 and who can predict further injuries), the division is a toss-up between the 3 aforementioned teams with the Eagles winding up a distant 4th.
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In comment 15307538 Old Blue said:
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. Not trying to fix the O line is just bad judgement, and bad coaching, and that is on DG, and Judge.
This is a total load of crap. They spent significant resources last year to add talent to the OL. The line they put out last year was 4/5th rookies or first year starters. Having confidence in that group to progress is perfectly reasonable given the talent they acquired. I don’t know how this all works out and neither do you. But it is not bad judgement or bad coaching.
They added players to the O line last year, but they didn’t add talent, and I don’t care if they are all rookies, or 10 year veterans the bottom line is they suck, and if you think it is not bad judgement to fix again then you must want another losing team for how many years in a row now.
“I don’t care if they are all rookies, or 10 year veterans the bottom line is they suck,”
Or in other words this is a total load of crap. You know jack shit about their talent and obviously don’t care. This is just pathetic tough guy talk. Get a life.
And if Dallas' O-Line suffers similar injuries as last year, they will also have difficulty keeping Dak from running for his life. Yes, Z Martin is a top 3 OG in the NFL and Ty Smith is a top OT when healthy. He claims to feel as well as he has in years, but he's missed 26 games over the past 5 years due to neck surgery). The other members of their O-Line (La'el Collins, Ty Biadasz & Cn Williams are average at best if they can sustain their health this year).
The Eagles O-Line is probably the best in the division but they have also suffered significant injuries last year (Dillard, Br Brooks & Ln Johnson).
Our young line will make mistakes this year, no doubt. But the upside is greater than all of the other O-Lines in the NFC East (no longer the NFC Least!).
Erick Flowers or Shane Lemieux?
Erick Flowers or Shane Lemieux?
It is so bad we are getting down to this? How about neither one. They both SUCK.
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Although he has shown improvement in being much more efficient @ OG than OT who would you rather have at OLG,
Erick Flowers or Shane Lemieux?
It is so bad we are getting down to this? How about neither one. They both SUCK.
They don’t suck as much as you do.
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In comment 15307613 royhobbs7 said:
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Although he has shown improvement in being much more efficient @ OG than OT who would you rather have at OLG,
Erick Flowers or Shane Lemieux?
It is so bad we are getting down to this? How about neither one. They both SUCK.
They don’t suck as much as you do.
Love the kind words, but doesn’t change the outcome.
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In comment 15307614 Old Blue said:
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In comment 15307613 royhobbs7 said:
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Although he has shown improvement in being much more efficient @ OG than OT who would you rather have at OLG,
Erick Flowers or Shane Lemieux?
It is so bad we are getting down to this? How about neither one. They both SUCK.
They don’t suck as much as you do.
Love the kind words, but doesn’t change the outcome.
Ooooo….Tough guy has spoken. So impressed.
Of all the reasons fans can conjure up in being optimistic about the Offensive Line this season, this shouldn't be one of them...
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Yet word is that Solder is healthy compared to 2019 and in a better frame of mind regarding his son, so one would think his play would be much improved. If Solder's play is superior to 2019 and Solder is only a backup, maybe we Giants fans have reason to be somewhat optimistic regarding the starting five. And for this reason, I am optimistic.
Of all the reasons fans can conjure up in being optimistic about the Offensive Line this season, this shouldn't be one of them...
That’s the sad part about this O line is that Solder may be better than some of the so called starters.