Two “telling” comments on Coughlin as our HC

Is this in response to Ramsey's comments?

Not familiar with that. What was said?

.

about Parcells, Belichick, Lombardi or any other coach with multiple championships. They are not everyones' cup of tea...but they can bring a group together to achieve a common goal.

but the work he did in the ‘08 and ‘12 playoffs was masterful, imv

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To be honest, we didn't like Tom Coughlin. That's what it came down to," Ramsey said. "That was his first year in there and we were a sorry team the year before. We went from having a relaxed coaching staff that let us be adults, but we were too young for that at the time. We were too young a team to know how to really treat that. "When they brought in Coughlin, he went compete opposite. It felt like...even worse than college at times. We felt like half the stuff he was trying to implement wasn't even about football. You have to wear white socks. It doesn't matter if I wear white socks or black socks -- the receiver is gonna get shut down regardless."

CBS - ( New Window )

The point of the "socks". Ramsey is right that the socks didn't have anything to do with the player's performance. It is simply a test to see who can put their ego aside to buy in to what the coach is selling.

Doug Marrone was, right?

Not a good look for Coughlin in his second stint in Jacksonville, I thought.

In comment 15306956 Go Terps said:

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Doug Marrone was, right? Not a good look for Coughlin in his second stint in Jacksonville, I thought.

I'm not sure it is relevant who the coach was. The point is the same.

In comment 15306956 Go Terps said:

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Doug Marrone was, right? Not a good look for Coughlin in his second stint in Jacksonville, I thought.

Sounds like Coughlin took the 2004 approach in trying to set a culture in Jacksonville.

I'm kind of surprised Coughlin was that intimately involved in those details in JAX - it seems like it could be stepping on the HC's toes.

If in 2015 the Giants hired someone to come in over Coughlin and tell the players what socks to wear, to no longer arrive at meetings give minutes early...how would he have taken it?

In comment 15306970 BrettNYG10 said:

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I'm kind of surprised Coughlin was that intimately involved in those details in JAX - it seems like it could be stepping on the HC's toes.

Perhaps Marrone and Coughlin agreed on the approach? If Coughlin was overbearing about instituting that rule, I would agree.

In comment 15306974 Go Terps said:

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If in 2015 the Giants hired someone to come in over Coughlin and tell the players what socks to wear, to no longer arrive at meetings give minutes early...how would he have taken it?

It is probably not a good idea to assume either way.

So probably would have taken it in stride. Especially if the new leadership was significantly more successful and accomplished.

I think it is 100% different when you're the head coach then if you're an executive sitting in a suite.

In comment 15306977 crick n NC said:

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In comment 15306970 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: I'm kind of surprised Coughlin was that intimately involved in those details in JAX - it seems like it could be stepping on the HC's toes. Perhaps Marrone and Coughlin agreed on the approach? If Coughlin was overbearing about instituting that rule, I would agree.

You're probably right. I was actually a big fan of Marrone and thought he was a good coach - the Jags were a one hit wonder though.

In comment 15306982 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 15306977 crick n NC said: Quote: In comment 15306970 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: I'm kind of surprised Coughlin was that intimately involved in those details in JAX - it seems like it could be stepping on the HC's toes. Perhaps Marrone and Coughlin agreed on the approach? If Coughlin was overbearing about instituting that rule, I would agree. You're probably right. I was actually a big fan of Marrone and thought he was a good coach - the Jags were a one hit wonder though.

Jax was interesting. The situation seemed to have promise from the outside looking in, but quickly went up in flames. Football is funny that way.

Crick, I agree - the 2016 NYG and 2017 JAX changed my thinking about what makes a sustainably competitive team. My current view is you need an elite offense (driven by the QB) to be a competitive playoff team on a yearly basis and that defensive-minded teams are likely to only make a short-term run or two.

In comment 15306999 BrettNYG10 said:

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Crick, I agree - the 2016 NYG and 2017 JAX changed my thinking about what makes a sustainably competitive team. My current view is you need an elite offense (driven by the QB) to be a competitive playoff team on a yearly basis and that defensive-minded teams are likely to only make a short-term run or two.

In simpler times a good defense matched with a good running game got you farther for longer. These days the qb position has to be at least be a plus. Defenses just can't clamp down offenses like that used to. Each team needs the ability to score plenty of points and score quickly. Scoring a lot of points and scoring quickly was a luxury twenty years ago.

In comment 15306974 Go Terps said:

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If in 2015 the Giants hired someone to come in over Coughlin and tell the players what socks to wear, to no longer arrive at meetings give minutes early...how would he have taken it?

If that person never won a Super Bowl I'd imagine not well.

In comment 15307007 crick n NC said:

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In comment 15306999 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Crick, I agree - the 2016 NYG and 2017 JAX changed my thinking about what makes a sustainably competitive team. My current view is you need an elite offense (driven by the QB) to be a competitive playoff team on a yearly basis and that defensive-minded teams are likely to only make a short-term run or two. In simpler times a good defense matched with a good running game got you farther for longer. These days the qb position has to be at least be a plus. Defenses just can't clamp down offenses like that used to. Each team needs the ability to score plenty of points and score quickly. Scoring a lot of points and scoring quickly was a luxury twenty years ago.

Yeah, exactly - I think OL play has really deteriorated league-wide since 07/08, which has contributed quite a bit to the devaluation of the running game.

One of the things I admire about Coughlin is that his 07/11 teams won with much different offensive profiles.

In comment 15307026 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 15307007 crick n NC said: Quote: In comment 15306999 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Crick, I agree - the 2016 NYG and 2017 JAX changed my thinking about what makes a sustainably competitive team. My current view is you need an elite offense (driven by the QB) to be a competitive playoff team on a yearly basis and that defensive-minded teams are likely to only make a short-term run or two. In simpler times a good defense matched with a good running game got you farther for longer. These days the qb position has to be at least be a plus. Defenses just can't clamp down offenses like that used to. Each team needs the ability to score plenty of points and score quickly. Scoring a lot of points and scoring quickly was a luxury twenty years ago. Yeah, exactly - I think OL play has really deteriorated league-wide since 07/08, which has contributed quite a bit to the devaluation of the running game. One of the things I admire about Coughlin is that his 07/11 teams won with much different offensive profiles.

Brett, good point about the difference in OL play these days. That difference in OL play affects how the game unfolds. When the running game was the primary source for offense any team that could establish their running game while keeping the game close had the benefit of play action which was an added benefit to the pass pro for the OL. The OL now may not have the amount of pass pro benefits from yesteryear.

but let’s remember Strahan chafed at Coughlin, too, at first. He hated him.

Coughlin himself had to chill a bit, stop being a Dick to media for no reason, and do the player’s leadership counsel. And he came in with bowling and stuff before the tide turned.

I was never in the military but TC’s rules seem a lot like the parade marching they learn to do. The marching’s not important in and of itself, but the discipline, unity, and leaning to follow commands that are instilled is important. The accountability of following the rules big and small, and all being treated the same.

I think it is probably wise to ask yourself, "why do i not want to buy in?"

Whether a player buys into what the coach is selling or not, they will still develop mileage on their bodies. My thinking is that it is always better to go all on than not. If the coach is not a good fit then the results will speak for themselves. By choosing to not "buy in" are those players actually helping a coach stay longer that may not fit with the team?

When TC came in and had been to a SB. Quite a bit different than a 2nd year player.

I don’t think TC should have been setting team rules. Marrone would be smart to pick TC’s brain on what it takes and implementing as he saw fit.

TC will take a hit as Eli will for their respective last couple years. In time it will be a small blip.

Grateful to TC forever. Interesting the three Jacksonville championship games all involved TC.

In comment 15307092 Daniel in MI said:

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but let’s remember Strahan chafed at Coughlin, too, at first. He hated him. Coughlin himself had to chill a bit, stop being a Dick to media for no reason, and do the player’s leadership counsel. And he came in with bowling and stuff before the tide turned. I was never in the military but TC’s rules seem a lot like the parade marching they learn to do. The marching’s not important in and of itself, but the discipline, unity, and leaning to follow commands that are instilled is important. The accountability of following the rules big and small, and all being treated the same.

Don’t forget a visit to In and Out Burger..:)

In comment 15307092 Daniel in MI said:

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but let’s remember Strahan chafed at Coughlin, too, at first. He hated him. Coughlin himself had to chill a bit, stop being a Dick to media for no reason, and do the player’s leadership counsel. And he came in with bowling and stuff before the tide turned. I was never in the military but TC’s rules seem a lot like the parade marching they learn to do. The marching’s not important in and of itself, but the discipline, unity, and leaning to follow commands that are instilled is important. The accountability of following the rules big and small, and all being treated the same.

This is an important insight. Coughlin clearly has made clear his admiration for the military and wants to borrow some ideas from military discipline. But the thing is, first, Coughlin never served, either. He's a football lifer. (I don't know if he was ROTC at Syracuse, so maybe he did that.) He doesn't have first-hand experience of military life or military discipline. Second, football isn't warfare, a coach isn't a battlefield commander. It's not life and death. If you miss an assignment in a football game, your buddies don't get killed. If you have a losing season, your country isn't conquered. I can understand why some players would chafe at treating football like war. It's simply not the same thing.

But: I get wanting the players to subsume their comfort and their ego, to always be focused, and to be willing to do suffer some annoyance to get with the team program.

I think TC was generally pretty successful at getting players to buy in — maybe too successful, in a way. His teams would routinely run out of gas over a long season, and always had a lot of injuries. I think they finished weak because TC's high-intensity approach was physically and mentally exhausting. I think they had a lot of injuries in part because the players would selflessly throw their bodies around. Not very many "business decisions." The team might have actually done better with more "business decisions," but TC would never have tolerated even a hint of that.

Give credit to TC for changing & evolving after the '06 season.

The ending of his tenure sucked, but I'll eternally grateful for two of the best events of my life, in which he played a starring role.

In comment 15306999 BrettNYG10 said:

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Crick, I agree - the 2016 NYG and 2017 JAX changed my thinking about what makes a sustainably competitive team. My current view is you need an elite offense (driven by the QB) to be a competitive playoff team on a yearly basis and that defensive-minded teams are likely to only make a short-term run or two.

Supported by the 85 Bears, 2000 Ravens, and 2002 Buccaneers. It’s a fair line of thinking. Of course I’m sure there are outside circumstances that can be pointed to to say no, this is why X team never won again. But if you look at the best long sustained teams they always have strong offenses and QBs related to their long term success.

Btw, didn’t that Jax team make it to the AFC championship and damn near shut down the Pats in the first half?

bradshaw, it memory serves, the Jags were up double digits in the second half before falling apart.

In comment 15307190 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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bradshaw, it memory serves, the Jags were up double digits in the second half before falling apart.

My memory is hazy because it wasn’t a Giants game. I just remember texting with my boss who was Boston native and saying “your team better wake up in the second half because it looks all but over right now.”

I actually feel like the Jags started to lose momentum with a couple minutes left in the first half. But I could definitely be wrong.

I remember Jack recovering a fumble & it looked like he was taking it to the house but the play was blown dead.

Just looked it up: Jacksonville was up 20-10 in the 4th. The Pats ended up winning 24-20.

Was a WW2 vet. Parcells coached at West Point where he became friends with Bobby Knight. Parcells had a big impact on TC. Belichicks Dad served and was at the USNA for forty years. Nick Saban was on staff along with Lee Corso.

There is a huge military influence in football whether one served or not.

In comment 15307195 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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I remember Jack recovering a fumble & it looked like he was taking it to the house but the play was blown dead.

Ha, I definitely don’t remember individual plays from that game. I was just interested in the TC dynamic. Man if he had gotten Jax a ring right after leaving us, this board would be talking about it to this day. Even though he wasn’t the coach.

In comment 15307196 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Just looked it up: Jacksonville was up 20-10 in the 4th. The Pats ended up winning 24-20.

There you have it. Your memory topped mine!

bradshaw, I watched that game up in Maine with some cousins who are real/long time Patriots fans so the game stands out. Outwardly, I was cheering on the Pats, but internally...I was hoping the Jags would win. Haha.

In comment 15307201 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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bradshaw, I watched that game up in Maine with some cousins who are real/long time Patriots fans so the game stands out. Outwardly, I was cheering on the Pats, but internally...I was hoping the Jags would win. Haha.

Definitely more association with the game from your standpoint. My wife was pregnant at the time so I walked up to William Jeffries in South Arlington by our house and watched. Was alone and doing quite a bit of people watching as well. Ha

In comment 15306961 Sean said:

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In comment 15306956 Go Terps said: Quote: Doug Marrone was, right? Not a good look for Coughlin in his second stint in Jacksonville, I thought. Sounds like Coughlin took the 2004 approach in trying to set a culture in Jacksonville.

That's the frustrating part. One would think he would learned from his tenure with us to take a different approach there.

that ridiculous set your watch wrong policy there?

In comment 15307208 AnishPatel said:

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In comment 15306961 Sean said: Quote: In comment 15306956 Go Terps said: Quote: Doug Marrone was, right? Not a good look for Coughlin in his second stint in Jacksonville, I thought. Sounds like Coughlin took the 2004 approach in trying to set a culture in Jacksonville. That's the frustrating part. One would think he would learned from his tenure with us to take a different approach there.

It’s possible he may have been setting the tone like he did with the Giants and then planned to switch at a later point in similar fashion. Maybe he felt like that was the key. Be a hard ass for X amount of time, THEN show your softer side once the tone is set.

Nothing says he was intending to be a permanent hard ass. He may have had a plan that didn’t have time to run it’s course.

In comment 15307208 AnishPatel said:

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In comment 15306961 Sean said: Quote: In comment 15306956 Go Terps said: Quote: Doug Marrone was, right? Not a good look for Coughlin in his second stint in Jacksonville, I thought. Sounds like Coughlin took the 2004 approach in trying to set a culture in Jacksonville. That's the frustrating part. One would think he would learned from his tenure with us to take a different approach there.

It’s possible he may have been setting the tone like he did with the Giants and then planned to switch at a later point in similar fashion. Maybe he felt like that was the key. Be a hard ass for X amount of time, THEN show your softer side once the tone is set.

Nothing says he was intending to be a permanent hard ass. He may have had a plan that didn’t have time to run it’s course.

Again, I think a lot of it had to do with him being an executive instead of a coach. As the head coach, he's seeing these dudes every day so a personal relationship can be formed. As an executive, he's not seeing them nearly enough so he's a distant figure enforcing rules & the like.

In comment 15307211 bradshaw44 said:

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In comment 15307208 AnishPatel said: Quote: In comment 15306961 Sean said: Quote: In comment 15306956 Go Terps said: Quote: Doug Marrone was, right? Not a good look for Coughlin in his second stint in Jacksonville, I thought. Sounds like Coughlin took the 2004 approach in trying to set a culture in Jacksonville. That's the frustrating part. One would think he would learned from his tenure with us to take a different approach there. It’s possible he may have been setting the tone like he did with the Giants and then planned to switch at a later point in similar fashion. Maybe he felt like that was the key. Be a hard ass for X amount of time, THEN show your softer side once the tone is set. Nothing says he was intending to be a permanent hard ass. He may have had a plan that didn’t have time to run it’s course.

i don’t think that was any part of his master plan. It was pushed on him to lighten up as part the deal where he kept his job in 2007. He was close to being canned then and his relationship with players was a big cause of concern.

In comment 15307213 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Again, I think a lot of it had to do with him being an executive instead of a coach. As the head coach, he's seeing these dudes every day so a personal relationship can be formed. As an executive, he's not seeing them nearly enough so he's a distant figure enforcing rules & the like.

SF I was responding to Anish that last post not you.

I do wonder how much of it was Coughlin going rogue. And how much of it was Marrone asking for his help.

In comment 15307219 Big Al said:

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In comment 15307211 bradshaw44 said: Quote: In comment 15307208 AnishPatel said: Quote: In comment 15306961 Sean said: Quote: In comment 15306956 Go Terps said: Quote: Doug Marrone was, right? Not a good look for Coughlin in his second stint in Jacksonville, I thought. Sounds like Coughlin took the 2004 approach in trying to set a culture in Jacksonville. That's the frustrating part. One would think he would learned from his tenure with us to take a different approach there. It’s possible he may have been setting the tone like he did with the Giants and then planned to switch at a later point in similar fashion. Maybe he felt like that was the key. Be a hard ass for X amount of time, THEN show your softer side once the tone is set. Nothing says he was intending to be a permanent hard ass. He may have had a plan that didn’t have time to run it’s course. i don’t think that was any part of his master plan. It was pushed on him to lighten up as part the deal where he kept his job in 2007. He was close to being canned then and his relationship with players was a big cause of concern.

For the Giants it wasn’t part of his plan. But what he learned by it ending up that way may have made him think he could approach it that way at Jax. I’m not saying he ever intended to lighten up in NY. We all knew that was foist upon him by circumstances.

What I am saying is maybe he was going to try and use that as his model for Jax. None of us know either way. I’m just saying. It could have been.

In comment 15307221 bradshaw44 said:

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In comment 15307213 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: Again, I think a lot of it had to do with him being an executive instead of a coach. As the head coach, he's seeing these dudes every day so a personal relationship can be formed. As an executive, he's not seeing them nearly enough so he's a distant figure enforcing rules & the like. SF I was responding to Anish that last post not you. I do wonder how much of it was Coughlin going rogue. And how much of it was Marrone asking for his help.

I don't think the TC-Marrone relationship was a strong one.

In comment 15307226 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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In comment 15307221 bradshaw44 said: Quote: In comment 15307213 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: Again, I think a lot of it had to do with him being an executive instead of a coach. As the head coach, he's seeing these dudes every day so a personal relationship can be formed. As an executive, he's not seeing them nearly enough so he's a distant figure enforcing rules & the like. SF I was responding to Anish that last post not you. I do wonder how much of it was Coughlin going rogue. And how much of it was Marrone asking for his help. I don't think the TC-Marrone relationship was a strong one.

Is that a know thing I just haven’t heard of? I haven’t watched football like I used to the last several years with a new young son. Free time is limited.

bradshaw, I just remember TC being very noncommittal about Marrone when he was there, which I can't imagine sat well with Doug. After TC was fired, I believe Marrone took a shot @ him during a presser about TC's tendency to fine people for non football stuff.

I hear ya with limited free time with kids. That's why being in a sports group chat is great. I learn all of this through them, Haha.

So that he can be exposed in the expansion draft.

Seems like quite a gamble that Seattle won’t take him.

In comment 15307234 Mike from Ohio said:

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So that he can be exposed in the expansion draft. Seems like quite a gamble that Seattle won’t take him.

Mike, I'm thinking you're posting on wrong thread. Haha.

Apologies for the misfire.

In comment 15307230 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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bradshaw, I just remember TC being very noncommittal about Marrone when he was there, which I can't imagine sat well with Doug. After TC was fired, I believe Marrone took a shot @ him during a presser about TC's tendency to fine people for non football stuff. I hear ya with limited free time with kids. That's why being in a sports group chat is great. I learn all of this through them, Haha.

Thanks for the run down, SF! I definitely didn’t know the back story with TCs time there. It really was a flash in the pan. I remember after year one the owner gave TC credit for getting the team turned around. Next thing I knew he was firing TC. Can’t keep up!

This is literally the only site I look at anymore. Other than if I have to use a vendor portal for treasury purposes at work. I just flat out don’t care about anything outside work and this site when it comes to the internet. I glean enough about the outside world from here and random texts from friends. But I just don’t care to look at anything out there anymore. And as you know it gets testy on here often as well. The “tolerance” thread being a prime example.

It’s been great not being up to speed with current events. They come and go so fast that it makes me chuckle hearing coworkers bitch about something and by the next morning that thing that angered them is an afterthought, as the new rage of the day has taken hold!

My son is my world now. And the Giants are my one hobby I still keep an eye on to help with relaxing my mind during stressful periods at the office.

I remember just about losing faith (maybe the press was right?) right up to the beginning of 2006 season (2007 super bowl?). They lost the first 2 games and then Kawika Mitchell(?) saved the 3rd game with a goal line tackle against Washington. Then they won (I think) 6 straight after that to take them to 6-2 ... then it was still a little rocky after that and they finished 10-6.

I will never forget the photo of TC with his feet up on his desk and the term "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" .... on the white board behind him. It was my desktop for months.

I was so happy ... I was so proud when I looked at that daily.

overblown. He talked about how he had always cared about his players and Judy (his wife) got involved saying you are going to lose this team. They talked about how he was with the grandkids and that you can still be demanding and tough and show a more love to the players. So I think he stayed true to his beliefs but he certainly allowed the players to see more who he really was which his family knew (caring, warm, funny, etc.). I think I remember O'Hara talking about this. Something to the effect of yeah he is a little looser but he is still a demanding prick.

Was 12-7 in the post season and had Plax not been such a dumbass it would have been higher. You didn’t want to face a Coughlin coached team in the tournament.

with such a poor roster that he had to start guessing what to do at the end of close games, he was always a very solid coach. I never thought he should be put up there on a greatness level of coaches, but he certainly put up very competitive teams (both in JAX and NY) and got a lot out of his players one way or another. Argue the tactics all you want but as fans do we really care that much?

And he brought home two Lombardi’s on his watch so he did indeed show some greatness in there somewhere...

about him "retiring" from his family to spend more time with football was hilarious.

I agree 100%. I don't consider him on the level of the Hall of Fame coaches who built and maintained consistent winners.

But he won 2 Super Bowls and that puts him on a short list in NFL history. Only 13 coaches have done it. I believe 11 of them are in the HOF. Mike Shanahan 2-0 in SBs, 8-6 in playoff games 170-138 regular season record is the only one who isn't yet besides Coughlin 2-0 SB's 19-12 in playoff games 170-150 regular season record. I think both will eventually make it.

What coaches other than BB have had this sustained greatness in the FA/CAP era? I think it is tough to compare coaches from before FA and after.

Winners Dine...

when you are winning and it fails hard when you are losing. There was a lot of players on the Giants fighting against TCs approach, remember the players put together a committee? Tiki quit the game because of TC when he had his best years (Tiki is an idiot by the way) TC listened and changed a little and most of the players bought in and they won a championship but it didnt come easy. Once 2013 hit and all of the TC guys were old they should have been let go but he stuck with them and the team suffered and eventually his act became tired because they were losing horribly.

I loved TC as the head coach, he is a winner and will always be a winner in my book. It was time for him to go though. His type of coaching cant be sustained when you are losing.

1) I love Coughlin, but I'm not sure how telling this is. It is not uncommon for players who won with a coach to have comments like this. These two players really only experienced success with him, which also factors.

2) What I will say is even if his coaching style rubbed some the wrong way when not winning, my impression is you would be hard pressed to find a single player who does not respect Coughlin as a man. He genuinely seemed to care about his players and their lives away from the field.

3) Did Tiki quit because of Coughlin or to preserve his body? Or a combo? In any regard, it was Coughlin who helped him take his game to the elite level.

4) I don't disagree that it was time for Coughlin to go when he did. What I had a problem with was Reese was allowed another couple of seasons. Coughlin may have been struggling to keep this team afloat. But, Reese also had personnel issues that even the owner cited as the reason for failure in Coughlin's exit presser. There were significant deficiencies on the OL and D that lasted more than a season or two. Coughlin was shown the door and then we spent a boatload on D, which amounted to 1 phantom good season because everyone on the D had a career year at the same time. The same D shit the bed the following year and the OL was still a mess. It got another coach fired. Why was Reese given the pass when Coughlin was fired? It should have been a whole new regime.

Most of the vets did. Strahan and Toomer couldn't stand him. This level of conflict is what led to his famous player's council and his lightening up in the 2006-07 offseason.

Sounds like all that went out the window in Jax

In comment 15307209 Big Al said:

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that ridiculous set your watch wrong policy there?

I'm not sure how ridiculous it is. Over the past year, I have been continually frustrated by Zoom meetings where the host says something like, "We'll wait a few more minutes to give people time to log on...". I guess it depends on how precious other people's times are.

In comment 15308095 Bill L said:

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In comment 15307209 Big Al said: Quote: that ridiculous set your watch wrong policy there? I'm not sure how ridiculous it is. Over the past year, I have been continually frustrated by Zoom meetings where the host says something like, "We'll wait a few more minutes to give people time to log on...". I guess it depends on how precious other people's times are.

Unlike Coughlin, you can’t fine someone for being late for a meeting. I just have a problem with being treated like a child. I would rather accept a fine if I goofed up then deal with clock nonsense.I guess I would have not fit well with Coughlin if I was a player.

I'm not going to get into specifics but your point #2 would not be backed up if people from the Giants and Jacksonville days II chose to speak publicly. They will not because they have nothing to gain. This is just a message board and we're all pretty much anonymous so feel free to ignore this but I have been told that Tom Choughlin is not always a nice guy and he didn't always care about his players right from the horses mouth. The NFL is a tough business and there is a very ugly side to it that is kept buried under the mountain of money produced by it.

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4) I don't disagree that it was time for Coughlin to go when he did. What I had a problem with was Reese was allowed another couple of seasons. Coughlin may have been struggling to keep this team afloat. But, Reese also had personnel issues that even the owner cited as the reason for failure in Coughlin's exit presser. There were significant deficiencies on the OL and D that lasted more than a season or two. Coughlin was shown the door and then we spent a boatload on D, which amounted to 1 phantom good season because everyone on the D had a career year at the same time. The same D shit the bed the following year and the OL was still a mess. It got another coach fired. Why was Reese given the pass when Coughlin was fired? It should have been a whole new regime.

I totally understand why Reese outlasted Coughlin. He was younger, and he inherited both the QB & head coach. Now, he couldn’t do any better in who he inherited, but why shouldn’t Reese have gotten the opportunity to have a say in a new head coach?

On the flip side, Gettleman has already had the opportunity to draft a franchise QB (Reese never did) and sit in on two rounds of head coaching interviews (Reese only did it once). Reese’s record was much better than Gettleman’s is with the Giants. I don’t find it unreasonable at all that Reese outlasted Coughlin.

Reese inherited a HC and QB who won two SB's. Jerry's best role might have been as a scout. He certainly helped identify some really good talent over his career.

Arniefez. Have you played sports? It is fairly common that some players will have issues with a coach particularly when losing sets in. I found this true in the military and corporate environments as well. The darts come out when things are not going well. Sometimes deserving but often times not.

In comment 15308131 arniefez said:

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I'm not going to get into specifics but your point #2 would not be backed up if people from the Giants and Jacksonville days II chose to speak publicly. They will not because they have nothing to gain. This is just a message board and we're all pretty much anonymous so feel free to ignore this but I have been told that Tom Choughlin is not always a nice guy and he didn't always care about his players right from the horses mouth. The NFL is a tough business and there is a very ugly side to it that is kept buried under the mountain of money produced by it.

I wonder if Jake Novak would agree with point 2. That was a pretty nasty situation back in Jacksonville.

In comment 15308228 Big Al said:

Quote:

In comment 15308131 arniefez said: Quote: I'm not going to get into specifics but your point #2 would not be backed up if people from the Giants and Jacksonville days II chose to speak publicly. They will not because they have nothing to gain. This is just a message board and we're all pretty much anonymous so feel free to ignore this but I have been told that Tom Choughlin is not always a nice guy and he didn't always care about his players right from the horses mouth. The NFL is a tough business and there is a very ugly side to it that is kept buried under the mountain of money produced by it. I wonder if Jake Novak would agree with point 2. That was a pretty nasty situation back in Jacksonville.

Very true. I forgot about that situation. That was ugly.

In comment 15308131 arniefez said:

Quote:

I'm not going to get into specifics but your point #2 would not be backed up if people from the Giants and Jacksonville days II chose to speak publicly. They will not because they have nothing to gain. This is just a message board and we're all pretty much anonymous so feel free to ignore this but I have been told that Tom Choughlin is not always a nice guy and he didn't always care about his players right from the horses mouth. The NFL is a tough business and there is a very ugly side to it that is kept buried under the mountain of money produced by it.

Thanks for the input. It kind of proves my point. These quotes aren't telling of anything because players are likely to believe or remember what they want. They have a different view of Coughlin than guys who didn't win or had a bad experience, like Novak. So, Jacobs saying he loves Coughlin isn't very telling/.

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Complete with Walnuts!
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Wrong Thread! My bad.

Matt M, I think Tiki quit because of 2 things: 1) his general dislike for TC & 2) he thought he was going to be a media mix of Gifford, Summerall, & Walter Cronkite, however delusional that fixing looks in hindsight. The amusing is that Strahan-who I don't believe had a good relationship with Tiki-became the media superstar while Tiki is doing radio (I think?).