I have faith that Jones will answer the doubters and settle his spot as the Giants' long-term QB in Year 3, thanks in no small part to the massive improvements made around him in the lineup. The additions of Kenny Golladay, Kadarius Toney and Kyle Rudolph, along with the return to health of running back Saquon Barkley, mean Jones will be working with the most firepower he's ever had at his disposal. Don't be swayed too much by Jones' lackluster TD-to-INT ratio (11:10) last season; the fact that he completed 62.5 percent of his passes despite working with pass catchers who had a hard time hanging on to the ball (the Giants ranked 12th in the NFL with 30 drops, per Pro Football Focus) is a good sign. I think the former top-10 pick has a chance to put up 20 TDs and complete over 64 percent of his passes in 2021.
Gil is 89.
Isn't the magic number 30? And by magic - I mean the subjective total certain blowhards beat into the board all winter?
Hey, I was right about Eli, and I'm right about Jones.
I'm not going to be hung up on a specific TD number necessarily (maybe he goes 20 and 5 and adds a bunch of rushing TDs). But I am hoping Jones is an above-average passer and TD producer. I also don't think Jones is ever going to be a great protector of the football relative to peers.
Anything less and we're banning you.
A reasonable target if he plays full season would seem more like 25-27 or so passing touchdowns, and maybe a few more running touchdowns.
The Offense needs to gel and keep up
350 would have been tied for 24th last year. Add in the extra game 350 would be 26th.
Uh, sorry, but that would be a massive disappointment. We are not going to have a winning record or a playoff berth if Jones only gets to 20 TD passes. NFW.
If the OL Gettleman and Judge are betting on is competent and the receivers stay health, Jones, if he's indeed a franchise QB, should blow by 30 TDs.
Gil should be Brandt. And his age is noted to put his comments in perspective.
This year I expect Giants will be significantly better at the position.
We've seen this very franchise foster and nurture QB careers that respectively went from bad to good seemingly overnight, 3 times now over the last 40 years. Yet every time I conjure up the proof, I get yelled at lol. The saintly and exalted Eli Manning....thou shall not mention that this guy was public enemy #1 around here BEFORE he ever won a playoff game. And he was considered a flat out slob after that rookie year.
But Daniel Jones is the worst QB in the NFL and there's just no way in hell he improves year 3.
*Even though the 1932 NFL Championship Game was played on an 80 yard field, at the Chicago Stadium, the ball was moved back 20 yards once the offense crossed midfield, simulating a regular 100 yard field.
-World Series Champions: New York Yankees
-Stanley Cup Champions: Toronto Maple Leafs
-Pop Standards include: Night and Day, I've Got the World on a String and Smoke Gets in Your Eyes.
-The Big Movies included Shanghai Express, The Sign of the Cross and The Kid From Spain
-Price of a postage stamp in 1932: 3 cents
-US Life Expectancy: Males: 61.0 years, Females: 63.5 years
The World Population was ~ 2,164,000,000
-Al Capone's Cadillac was seized by the government in 1932 and later used as Franklin Roosevelt's limousine
-The winter of 1932 was so cold that Niagara Falls froze completely solid.
We've seen this very franchise foster and nurture QB careers that respectively went from bad to good seemingly overnight, 3 times now over the last 40 years. Yet every time I conjure up the proof, I get yelled at lol. The saintly and exalted Eli Manning....thou shall not mention that this guy was public enemy #1 around here BEFORE he ever won a playoff game. And he was considered a flat out slob after that rookie year.
But Daniel Jones is the worst QB in the NFL and there's just no way in hell he improves year 3.
Daniel Jones is going to improve because Eli, Phil and Kerry all did in some particular year in their career?
I like his chances to improve too, but hope there is something more compelling you have than just that.
Eli was ranked 25th in 2007. 18th in 2006. 23rd in 2005. The team's record was 29-19 during that span. The team also scored points. Why? Because the passing game, while a bit hit or miss due to being very aggressive and "read-centric" if memory serves, was also highly effective.
We will know whether Jones is the solution soon enough and it won't come in the form of stats.
Because those are different people who played in different systems with different coaches at a different time. If Jones makes a leap similar to any of theirs, it won't have anything to do with him playing under similar conditions.
Likewise, I'd he doesn't make a leap a LA Danny Kannell or Dave Brown, it won't be because he fell victim to some system that failed them.
Quote:
to bring up Eli's 2004-2005 leap or the leap Simms took in 1984 or even the leap Kerry Collins took from 99 to 2000.
We've seen this very franchise foster and nurture QB careers that respectively went from bad to good seemingly overnight, 3 times now over the last 40 years. Yet every time I conjure up the proof, I get yelled at lol. The saintly and exalted Eli Manning....thou shall not mention that this guy was public enemy #1 around here BEFORE he ever won a playoff game. And he was considered a flat out slob after that rookie year.
But Daniel Jones is the worst QB in the NFL and there's just no way in hell he improves year 3.
Daniel Jones is going to improve because Eli, Phil and Kerry all did in some particular year in their career?
I like his chances to improve too, but hope there is something more compelling you have than just that.
Uh, no...I am just conjuring up examples because so many here insist on parroting the claims that QBs cannot improve from bad to good early in their career.
It doesn't have to be compelling. It can just be the truth.
Quote:
to bring up Eli's 2004-2005 leap or the leap Simms took in 1984 or even the leap Kerry Collins took from 99 to 2000.
We've seen this very franchise foster and nurture QB careers that respectively went from bad to good seemingly overnight, 3 times now over the last 40 years. Yet every time I conjure up the proof, I get yelled at lol. The saintly and exalted Eli Manning....thou shall not mention that this guy was public enemy #1 around here BEFORE he ever won a playoff game. And he was considered a flat out slob after that rookie year.
But Daniel Jones is the worst QB in the NFL and there's just no way in hell he improves year 3.
Daniel Jones is going to improve because Eli, Phil and Kerry all did in some particular year in their career?
I like his chances to improve too, but hope there is something more compelling you have than just that.
Why are you willfully putting words in his mouth? Did he say that “Daniel Jones is going to improve because Eli, Phil and Kerry did”? He did not say that. I’m guessing that you know what his point is but you’re twisting it intentionally for some reason. Maybe you’re just argumentative?
Quote:
In comment 15308025 djm said:
Quote:
to bring up Eli's 2004-2005 leap or the leap Simms took in 1984 or even the leap Kerry Collins took from 99 to 2000.
We've seen this very franchise foster and nurture QB careers that respectively went from bad to good seemingly overnight, 3 times now over the last 40 years. Yet every time I conjure up the proof, I get yelled at lol. The saintly and exalted Eli Manning....thou shall not mention that this guy was public enemy #1 around here BEFORE he ever won a playoff game. And he was considered a flat out slob after that rookie year.
But Daniel Jones is the worst QB in the NFL and there's just no way in hell he improves year 3.
Daniel Jones is going to improve because Eli, Phil and Kerry all did in some particular year in their career?
I like his chances to improve too, but hope there is something more compelling you have than just that.
Uh, no...I am just conjuring up examples because so many here insist on parroting the claims that QBs cannot improve from bad to good early in their career.
It doesn't have to be compelling. It can just be the truth.
So many on the site say young QBs cannot improve from bad to good? That doesn't seem like an accurate rep.
Would seem that a predominate number of QBs that are good actually went from bad to good. All over different time frames of course but that is not atypical.
Quote:
In comment 15308025 djm said:
Quote:
to bring up Eli's 2004-2005 leap or the leap Simms took in 1984 or even the leap Kerry Collins took from 99 to 2000.
We've seen this very franchise foster and nurture QB careers that respectively went from bad to good seemingly overnight, 3 times now over the last 40 years. Yet every time I conjure up the proof, I get yelled at lol. The saintly and exalted Eli Manning....thou shall not mention that this guy was public enemy #1 around here BEFORE he ever won a playoff game. And he was considered a flat out slob after that rookie year.
But Daniel Jones is the worst QB in the NFL and there's just no way in hell he improves year 3.
Daniel Jones is going to improve because Eli, Phil and Kerry all did in some particular year in their career?
I like his chances to improve too, but hope there is something more compelling you have than just that.
Why are you willfully putting words in his mouth? Did he say that “Daniel Jones is going to improve because Eli, Phil and Kerry did”? He did not say that. I’m guessing that you know what his point is but you’re twisting it intentionally for some reason. Maybe you’re just argumentative?
Happens all the time. Even I am guilty of this even if I cannot recall doing so, I am sure I do.
We have covered all the bases with Jones and year 3. There are plenty of examples detailing every type of QB developmental curve. Same with regression curves. And everything in between. That's why no one knows fuck all. Even Gil Brandt, an absolute boss of a scout, has been wrong before. George Young drafted Simms and Hoss. Then drafted Brown. Accorsi was public enemy#1 around here then moved joined forces with Coughlin and drafts Eli.
There isn't a more confounding position in all of sports than QB. Safe assumption it literally keeps GMs up at night.
Jones NEEDS to play better. We all know this. We don't need to debate about it. There's reasons the Giants are sticking with him:
--He's been in the room for 2 years now. He's been with Judge for a full year now. They like what they see.
--He's cheap.
--There wasn't a better and relatively easy to find option to be had this past off-season.
It's not complicated. Just reasons why.
Quote:
to bring up Eli's 2004-2005 leap or the leap Simms took in 1984 or even the leap Kerry Collins took from 99 to 2000.
Because those are different people who played in different systems with different coaches at a different time. If Jones makes a leap similar to any of theirs, it won't have anything to do with him playing under similar conditions.
Likewise, I'd he doesn't make a leap a LA Danny Kannell or Dave Brown, it won't be because he fell victim to some system that failed them.
That is correct. Jones is not connected to these guys from the NYG past in any way, and using them as examples to suggest a projection (good or bad) is not at all relevant.
Quote:
In comment 15308025 djm said:
Quote:
to bring up Eli's 2004-2005 leap or the leap Simms took in 1984 or even the leap Kerry Collins took from 99 to 2000.
Because those are different people who played in different systems with different coaches at a different time. If Jones makes a leap similar to any of theirs, it won't have anything to do with him playing under similar conditions.
Likewise, I'd he doesn't make a leap a LA Danny Kannell or Dave Brown, it won't be because he fell victim to some system that failed them.
That is correct. Jones is not connected to these guys from the NYG past in any way, and using them as examples to suggest a projection (good or bad) is not at all relevant.
My God I wasn't trying to connect them. MErely pointing out examples.
It's not relevant to point out the number of QBs who were getting laughed at one year and then hoisting trophies the next? How is that not relevant? All we have is history to go on. And history shows that Daniel Jones can in fact improve and become a good or even great player this 3rd season. It's completely relevant, even more due to the countless debates BBI finds itself in where a number of people insist that Jones is a finished product.
Have you been on BBI the last 2 years?
Quote:
In comment 15308025 djm said:
Quote:
to bring up Eli's 2004-2005 leap or the leap Simms took in 1984 or even the leap Kerry Collins took from 99 to 2000.
We've seen this very franchise foster and nurture QB careers that respectively went from bad to good seemingly overnight, 3 times now over the last 40 years. Yet every time I conjure up the proof, I get yelled at lol. The saintly and exalted Eli Manning....thou shall not mention that this guy was public enemy #1 around here BEFORE he ever won a playoff game. And he was considered a flat out slob after that rookie year.
But Daniel Jones is the worst QB in the NFL and there's just no way in hell he improves year 3.
Daniel Jones is going to improve because Eli, Phil and Kerry all did in some particular year in their career?
I like his chances to improve too, but hope there is something more compelling you have than just that.
Uh, no...I am just conjuring up examples because so many here insist on parroting the claims that QBs cannot improve from bad to good early in their career.
It doesn't have to be compelling. It can just be the truth.
I don't think anyone here believes Jones (or any other player) can't improve but "we caught lightning in a bottle 2, 3, 4, decades ago so obviously it's going to happen again now" isn't a compelling argument.
Also the leashes given then were muuuuuuuch longer than Jones is going to get. Which is why this year is so critical. The Giants, and the league in general, isn't going to be giving guys 5+ years to develop like they may have in the past.
Quote:
In comment 15308030 NYGgolfer said:
Quote:
In comment 15308025 djm said:
Quote:
to bring up Eli's 2004-2005 leap or the leap Simms took in 1984 or even the leap Kerry Collins took from 99 to 2000.
We've seen this very franchise foster and nurture QB careers that respectively went from bad to good seemingly overnight, 3 times now over the last 40 years. Yet every time I conjure up the proof, I get yelled at lol. The saintly and exalted Eli Manning....thou shall not mention that this guy was public enemy #1 around here BEFORE he ever won a playoff game. And he was considered a flat out slob after that rookie year.
But Daniel Jones is the worst QB in the NFL and there's just no way in hell he improves year 3.
Daniel Jones is going to improve because Eli, Phil and Kerry all did in some particular year in their career?
I like his chances to improve too, but hope there is something more compelling you have than just that.
Uh, no...I am just conjuring up examples because so many here insist on parroting the claims that QBs cannot improve from bad to good early in their career.
It doesn't have to be compelling. It can just be the truth.
I don't think anyone here believes Jones (or any other player) can't improve but "we caught lightning in a bottle 2, 3, 4, decades ago so obviously it's going to happen again now" isn't a compelling argument.
Also the leashes given then were muuuuuuuch longer than Jones is going to get. Which is why this year is so critical. The Giants, and the league in general, isn't going to be giving guys 5+ years to develop like they may have in the past.
Plenty of people here don't think Jones can improve or improve enough. That's fine, hey they could be right why the hell not, but some seem to actually be insulted by any belief in Jones. That's why I conjure up history.
No worries though, as you are only getting upset. Was only pointing out in my view they are not relevant nor compelling reasons as to why Jones will improve. I think he will improve but due to other reasons.
You can have the last word.
Season probably comes down to a few games where Jones will have to play big if the Giants are going to be a playoff team.
- Over the past 5 seasons, 61 teams have made the playoffs (making the playoffs being the proxy for winning)
- The average offensive yards breakdown:
5860 Total Yards | 3880 Pass Yards | 1980 Rush Yards
- The average offensive TDs scored:
29 Passing TDs | 16 Rushing TDs | 45 Total TDs
- Pro-rated over a 17 game season
6225 | 4123 | 2101 | 30 | 17 | 48
- Pro-rated over a 17 game season
6225 | 4123 | 2101 | 30 | 17 | 48
I think this is very possible. If you prorate DJ's rookie numbers (3027 yds and 24 TDs in 12 GS) over 17 games, you get 4288 yards and 34 TDs.
Of course he has stay healthy to play 17. But as others have said, just win, baby.
FACT
Apparently we cannot draw any comparisons to Eli. They are not allowed.
FACT
I generally agree and I think it's great that someone like Gil believes in DJ. But I question the prediction of 20 TDs in '21. DJ already (in '19) threw for more TDs (24) in fewer games (12), with FAR less talent at WR/TE.
I believe that Brandt is expecting a high yards/completion given all the targets. Not that he did not mention Engram.
Gil Brandt was the Vice President of Player Personnel for the Cowboys from 1960 to 1989. Seven year after joining the expansion franchise, Dallas went off on a streak of 20 consecutive winning seasons. Appeared in five Super Bowls and won two.
I will always remember him for 1974. The Giants lost their first six games of the year and were suckered into trading the first and second rounders to Dallas for backup QB Craig Morton.
As usual, the trade didn’t go well for the Giants and became a legendary coup for the Cowboys. Morton was destroyed on a weekly basis behind the Giants’ shoddy offensive line. He was booed mercilessly and regularly.
Meanwhile, in Dallas, the eventual first-round selection the Giants surrendered in exchange for Morton, Maryland defensive lineman Randy White, was embarking on his Hall of Fame career.
Gil, a recent Hall of Famer, still works up an entire draft board each year and is a frequent co-host on the Sirius NFL Radio channel.
So much so that they actually were happy when Joe Pisarcik was the starter. Probably only for a game or two, but still...
The 427 points/5695 yards they scored would have put the Giants at 12th and 20th in 2020.
It's a vastly different league.
That said, getting to 12th/20th in the league would be a massive improvement for the Giants.
But Daniel Jones is the worst QB in the NFL and there's just no way in hell he improves year 3.
Which posters said Jones can't improve?
There is certainly concern whether he can improve, but the conventional wisdom seems to be that Jones now has sufficient resources in place. And now it's up to him to deliver.