I have faith that Jones will answer the doubters and settle his spot as the Giants' long-term QB in Year 3, thanks in no small part to the massive improvements made around him in the lineup. The additions of Kenny Golladay, Kadarius Toney and Kyle Rudolph, along with the return to health of running back Saquon Barkley, mean Jones will be working with the most firepower he's ever had at his disposal. Don't be swayed too much by Jones' lackluster TD-to-INT ratio (11:10) last season; the fact that he completed 62.5 percent of his passes despite working with pass catchers who had a hard time hanging on to the ball (the Giants ranked 12th in the NFL with 30 drops, per Pro Football Focus) is a good sign. I think the former top-10 pick has a chance to put up 20 TDs and complete over 64 percent of his passes in 2021.
Gil is 89.
Just when you thought the bar couldn't sink lower...
Just when you thought the bar couldn't sink lower...
Who the fuck said that? Go back to bed.
Oh, I am sorry, facts annoy you when they aren't shitty doom and gloom facts. Too bad.
Right. All DG had to do was ensure that the team he had to rebuild didn't do anything crazy, like win any more than 5 games or so...
Oh, I am sorry, facts annoy you when they aren't shitty doom and gloom facts. Too bad.
So Gettleman deserves credit not only for overdrafting Jones, but for not trading up for him? Incredible.
What are shitty doom and gloom facts, anyway? Facts are facts. I invite you to go to Pro Football Reference and look at the Giants' game logs since they drafted Daniel Jones. You'll find many facts there.
Why does it even matter where he was picked? Tom Brady was the 6th rounder. If he fell apart in 2001 the Pats are moving on and finding a better QB in 2002. If Jones was a 2nd rounder are we sitting here today saying "well, he can be just average and not win shit since he was a 2nd rounder" --of course we aren't.
Jones needs to play well because the starting QB of an NFL franchise, one that is looking to turn things around. 6th? 19th? It shouldn't fucking matter. The Giants are holding Jones to a high standard that reflects being a starting QB.
And yes, if Jones IS the good, DG should be credited with getting a good QB without trading up. Tough shit if you don't like it.
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because people love to mention where he was picked. And it's the same cast of characters. What's odd is these same folks never mention that DG got the QB he wanted without trading up, something that is quite rare.
Right. All DG had to do was ensure that the team he had to rebuild didn't do anything crazy, like win any more than 5 games or so...
huh? nice pivot. not pertinent at all but any time you can shit on DG you do you.
Sorry for injecting good feelings into this thread. ONe that the OP intended to be somewhat hopeful.
Why does it even matter where he was picked? Tom Brady was the 6th rounder. If he fell apart in 2001 the Pats are moving on and finding a better QB in 2002. If Jones was a 2nd rounder are we sitting here today saying "well, he can be just average and not win shit since he was a 2nd rounder" --of course we aren't.
Jones needs to play well because the starting QB of an NFL franchise, one that is looking to turn things around. 6th? 19th? It shouldn't fucking matter. The Giants are holding Jones to a high standard that reflects being a starting QB.
And yes, if Jones IS the good, DG should be credited with getting a good QB without trading up. Tough shit if you don't like it.
And if he isn't can we say he set the franchise back by picking the wrong guy, or is that too doom and gloom?
That doesn't mean that fans still can't objectively (or even irrationally for that matter) question Jones' talents or if he is the right guy for the QB job. More than one conversation can be had regarding the players and the team.
And if you can't see that, then you just can't see...
I honestly don't know any more. I think that some people have become so invested in themselves that nothing else matters. Their ego is caught up in their pontification and outcomes which differs, they will see as invalidating them as persons and that hurts too much.
Another thread about Jones and yet another chance to take shots at him. My Farmer's Almanac says the sun came up again and it was a new day for the cycle to repeat....
People say they just want wins - but if Jones is a below-average QB, any success is likely going to be short-lived, like 2016 was, before we sink back down to mediocrity.
I also look at how we get to our wins. We have invested our first pick in the last five drafts on the offensive side of the ball. We've spent big money on offense - I do not see how we will compete long-term without an above-average offense. Look at the offensive line - this is not going to be a mauler unit with an elite running game. Add in that Barkley is iffy to start week one. I don't see how the offense is good without a good passing game.
Which goes back to the stats GD and Christian have posted.
Jones is going to be better than last year. But that's almost certainly going to lead certain posters telling us how good Jones is even if he is still a below-average QB. Setting objective measures of success helps mitigate that nonsense on both sides. I find it incredibly telling that Jones' biggest supporters seem to have zero faith Jones will put up even average QB numbers.
I am not beholden to metrics. Maybe Jones throws five picks in a game and inflates his turnover numbers. Below average numbers might be fine. I'm skeptical. But why isn't there any confidence he can get there? I'm a Jones skeptic and think he has the skills to be an above-average QB.
Alternatively, if Jones does not produce average TD/yard numbers - are you satisfied if Jones is a game manager? Do you think we can win championships with him as a game manager QB? Secondly, I simply don't think Jones can be a game-manager type given his penchant for turnovers. I don't think it's in his skillset - I never thought it was in Eli's either. So he needs the production to make up for it.
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In comment 15308714 djm said:
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because people love to mention where he was picked. And it's the same cast of characters. What's odd is these same folks never mention that DG got the QB he wanted without trading up, something that is quite rare.
Right. All DG had to do was ensure that the team he had to rebuild didn't do anything crazy, like win any more than 5 games or so...
huh? nice pivot. not pertinent at all but any time you can shit on DG you do you.
Sorry for injecting good feelings into this thread. ONe that the OP intended to be somewhat hopeful.
You go out of your way to compliment DG for not having to trade up to grab Daniel Jones at #6 overall, and you think that won't come with any responses?
Hurry up djm, the Good Ship Lollipop is leaving and you wouldn't want to miss it...
Oh, I am sorry, facts annoy you when they aren't shitty doom and gloom facts. Too bad.
If Jones is good, DG deserves enormous credit for selecting him. He took a lot of criticism for it and stuck to his guns. You don't mess around if you think you can get your QB for the next ten years. You just better be right.
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in 2021 if A) Jones threw 30 touchdowns and the Giants missed the playoffs or B) Jones threw 20 and the Giants made the playoffs. And everyone would pick B. Everyone.
That doesn't mean that fans still can't objectively (or even irrationally for that matter) question Jones' talents or if he is the right guy for the QB job. More than one conversation can be had regarding the players and the team.
And if you can't see that, then you just can't see...
I honestly don't know any more. I think that some people have become so invested in themselves that nothing else matters. Their ego is caught up in their pontification and outcomes which differs, they will see as invalidating them as persons and that hurts too much.
Nah, the investment level is low. Football related predictions are pretty low down on the food chain of validating anyone. I would hope...
Some fans are willing to bend reality to make it seem like the Giants haven't been as bad as they've been, and that their decision making hasn't been as bad as it's been. They think that makes them better fans; maybe it does, I have no idea. I don't know why being a better fan is a goal, but that appears to be important to many.
Whatever your level of fandom, though...facts are facts. And again if you want those facts in a completely unadulterated style I suggest you look at the Giants' PFR pages for the last three years. If you think stats matter, they're there for you to see and they're ugly. If you don't care about the stats and only care about the final score, that's there too and that's also ugly.
Am I supposed to get excited because Brandt thinks Jones can throw 20 TDs this year? If I'm not excited by that does it make me a bad fan?
We all know the team has been bad. Some would rather dissect the past than look to the future though. As a fan, what the fuck am I supposed to do with the past losses? Can I change them? Can I bitch up a storm about the GM and HC as if it will have an impact?
No. But when a change is made and a new HC comes in and appears to be doing good things, what relevance does 2018 have to it? Hell, even when Jones played well, one particular poster, invested in telling the board how bad Jones is, felt the need to say that he didn't play well and only played good in 5 games or some happy horseshit.
Basically the way this works is we're going to hear about how much the team sucks until they don't. Then what? I doubt it will be a "happy I was wrong" thing. More along the lines of "we're winning despite a terrible GM" or something similar.
Another thread about Jones and yet another chance to take shots at him. My Farmer's Almanac says the sun came up again and it was a new day for the cycle to repeat....
Is this directed towards me? I haven't taken any shots at Jones.
Well, if expecting bigger things from the 6th pick in the draft is a "shot" than perhaps I am "guilty"...
The 6th pick thing is true. Know what else is true? The Giants drafted their QB in round one and didn't have to trade a king's ransom for that pick. They didn't have to trade anything, actually. Know how common that is? It's not very common in case you were wondering. Quite uncommon actually. Funny how that nugget get's overlooked by so many. We're talking the 6th pick here. Not pick 1. Not 4 picks. One pick. 6th.
So we should have less expectations because we didn't trade up to select Jones at #6?
Are you downplaying the value of the 6th pick? It seems you may be suggesting that since Jones wasn't a top five pick that may mean we should expect less?
Help understand your angle here...
Bye.
:-)
Bye.
I don't have a problem with your point about not trading up for Jones. I get it.
But Jones was still the 6th pick in the draft. So whether he was acquired through a trade up or not, the expectations for such a high pick don't change. They should be high - a player who is a difference maker.
You seem to be doing some mental gymnastics here to brace for a softer landing if Jones struggles again this year...
:-)
No smiley face needed, btw. That's precisely what happened.
CIA Dave had super sensitive intel that he absolutely knew two other teams were going to take Jones before #17. I mean, if anyone could hack into other team's system to get critical information it's CIA Dave.
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Jones at #17, and then panicked and picked him at #6.
:-)
No smiley face needed, btw. That's precisely what happened.
I was trying to be nice since he was taking it "slowly" on us...
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Pro Football Reference have the "fact" that we overdrafted Jones on there?
Another thread about Jones and yet another chance to take shots at him. My Farmer's Almanac says the sun came up again and it was a new day for the cycle to repeat....
Is this directed towards me? I haven't taken any shots at Jones.
Well, if expecting bigger things from the 6th pick in the draft is a "shot" than perhaps I am "guilty"...
So how many QBs are in a better place than Jones is that were drafted in round 1 (or higher for that matter) after 3 years. What difference does it make where he was drafted? He was targeted at 6, and they took him. And no one knows if he is or isn't the guy yet.
I can lose some fingers on one hand and all of the other and still count how many QBs drafted in round 1 (or 2 for that matter) by any team over the last 10 years is worth the pick according to you and is "The Guy".
I'll list them out, (OK I did 12 years so sue me... lol) feel free to point out any I missed.
1) Burrow? Maybe. That brutal knee injury isn't helping. Unknown. And probably will be unknown for at least another 2 years.
2) Kyler Murray? Maybe. He doesn't look infinitely better than Jones to me to this point. Unknown. Haskins no. Lock, no.
3) Baker Mayfield? OK sure I guess. Still pretty close to a maybe. He sucked his first 2 years. Josh Allen. Yep Lamar Jackson. OK, hard not to include him especially as great value where picked. HOWEVER - I feel he landed in the exact right spot. Not sure he is what he is w/o John Harbaugh and the Ravens though.
4) Mahomes - Check. Trubisky - umm, no. Watson - sure, I guess. Except for the criminal activity. Houston sucks, so is he elevating enough as everyone seems to think should happen with these QBs?
5) Goff? Wentz? Not really looking so great at this point. Not terrible (well except Wentz last year) but certainly not great.
6) Winston? Mariota? Umm, nope.
7) Bortles, Manziel? Umm, LOL
8) EJ Manuel? Geno Smith. - Nein.
9) Andrew Luck. Sure. But what did it get Indy? Did he elevate the play enough around him to win? RGIII? Nay
10) Cam Newton. Hmm. Maybe.
11) Bradford? Tebow. Umm, nope.
12) Stafford - I guess. Did he elevate the play enough around him to win?
Brandt is saying Jones has a chance to be one of the least productive TD passing QBs in the league.
And we're supposed to get excited about that?
Brandt is saying Jones has a chance to be one of the least productive TD passing QBs in the league.
And we're supposed to get excited about that?
Evidently.
If this situation were playing out in Dallas or Philly we'd be laughing our asses off.
lol. It's a subjective post, did you not read the question I posed?
It's a question based on the list on who everyone thinks is somehow worth the 1st or second rnd pick based on all the hand wringing over Jones at 6. There are a few, but not all that many, to my mind. It's just a discussion point.
Brandt is saying Jones has a chance to be one of the least productive TD passing QBs in the league.
And we're supposed to get excited about that?
I think Gil believes in DJ becoming our franchise QB, but simply missed the boat on the TD prediction. Maybe he meant 30 instead of 20.
Maybe if someone pointed out to Gil that DJ threw for 24 in just 12 games 2 years ago (as a rookie with FAR less talent at WR/TE), Gil would say, did I say 20? I meant 30.
To me it's not a BFD.
Out of those I listed there are 4 that I would agree absolutely meet their draft status as a 1st or 2nd round pick. The rest either do not, are still unknown, or have circumstances (crime) mitigating their meeting of their draft status.
There are not a whole lot of amazing QBs on that list. Based on the fact that we are still unknown on exactly what we have in Jones, the hand wringing about his being drafted "too high" at 6 is (and always has been) kinda silly to my mind.
And I agree about the rambling nature of my initial post... lol. But I think you see my point(s). You may or may not agree (likely not... lol)
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Again, the really ironic thing is the premise of this thread is a prediction Jones has a chance to hit a number -- but just hitting that number would actually mean he was towards the bottom of the NFL.
Brandt is saying Jones has a chance to be one of the least productive TD passing QBs in the league.
And we're supposed to get excited about that?
I think Gil believes in DJ becoming our franchise QB, but simply missed the boat on the TD prediction. Maybe he meant 30 instead of 20.
Maybe if someone pointed out to Gil that DJ threw for 24 in just 12 games 2 years ago (as a rookie with FAR less talent at WR/TE), Gil would say, did I say 20? I meant 30.
To me it's not a BFD.
Maybe it's not so bulletproof to source an expert that misses by 50%.
We all know the team has been bad. Some would rather dissect the past than look to the future though. As a fan, what the fuck am I supposed to do with the past losses? Can I change them? Can I bitch up a storm about the GM and HC as if it will have an impact?
No. But when a change is made and a new HC comes in and appears to be doing good things, what relevance does 2018 have to it? Hell, even when Jones played well, one particular poster, invested in telling the board how bad Jones is, felt the need to say that he didn't play well and only played good in 5 games or some happy horseshit.
Basically the way this works is we're going to hear about how much the team sucks until they don't. Then what? I doubt it will be a "happy I was wrong" thing. More along the lines of "we're winning despite a terrible GM" or something similar.
The record and underlying causes of why they've been such a bad team color our perspective of them going forward. Hiring Joe Judge, which may be the best decision since TC was fired, doesn't undo previous poor decisions made by ownership and the FO that still affect the team.
Now I have no idea if Jones "gets it" this year, I will leave that to the usual experts to let me know how bad he is...
If the same prediction was made with the opposite tone -- if an analyst said "I predict Jones's ceiling next year is 20 TDs, which among guys with 14+ starts would only be better than Cam Newton and Teddy Bridgewater" -- how do y'all think that would be received?
The reality is only 6 teams have made the playoffs in the past 5 years with fewer than 20 passing TDs.
The average among playoff teams over the past 5 year is 29, in a 17 game season that means 30.
This isn't about fantasy stats, it's about measurements that correlate with going to the playoffs.
If the Giants have an outlying formula for success, like a dominant defense or dominant run game, that's awesome. If that's the formula, it should help set the value for Jones in any extension discussions.
Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Mahomes, Andrew Luck. I disqualified Watson because of the 22 sexual assault and harassment suits. He would have been 5. The rest are still "Jury is out" or a big "Nope".
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And by the way, if the threshold is "amazing QBs" then your list is going to be fairly small. Probably need to lighten up a bit on your measurement stick...
Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Mahomes, Andrew Luck. I disqualified Watson because of the 22 sexual assault and harassment suits. He would have been 5. The rest are still "Jury is out" or a big "Nope".
Look, no offense but this little experiment makes little sense. 12 years of drafts and you don't think more than 4 QBs were worth taking in the first two rounds? Jury is still out can't be overly used either or you could literally exclude everybody without a Super Bowl run which is silly.
Not for nothing, but in addition to the 4 slam dunks you mentioned above the list of guys that were worth taking imv should be expanded to at least include:
Herbert
Murray
Mayfield
Watson
Carr
Tannehill
Newton
Dalton
Stafford
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In comment 15308875 Jimmy Googs said:
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And by the way, if the threshold is "amazing QBs" then your list is going to be fairly small. Probably need to lighten up a bit on your measurement stick...
Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Mahomes, Andrew Luck. I disqualified Watson because of the 22 sexual assault and harassment suits. He would have been 5. The rest are still "Jury is out" or a big "Nope".
Look, no offense but this little experiment makes little sense. 12 years of drafts and you don't think more than 4 QBs were worth taking in the first two rounds? Jury is still out can't be overly used either or you could literally exclude everybody without a Super Bowl run which is silly.
Not for nothing, but in addition to the 4 slam dunks you mentioned above the list of guys that were worth taking imv should be expanded to at least include:
Herbert
Murray
Mayfield
Watson
Carr
Tannehill
Newton
Dalton
Stafford
1) Herbert, maybe. I like him but it's still too early for me.
2) You think Stafford, Newton, Murray and Mayfield have met expectations of the #1 pick in the draft? Not me. Not yet anyway.
3) Carr is a good one, as is Dalton. I'll give you those.
4) Would you have picked Tannehill before he got resurrected in Tennessee? He floundered for a long time.
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In comment 15308941 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 15308875 Jimmy Googs said:
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And by the way, if the threshold is "amazing QBs" then your list is going to be fairly small. Probably need to lighten up a bit on your measurement stick...
Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Mahomes, Andrew Luck. I disqualified Watson because of the 22 sexual assault and harassment suits. He would have been 5. The rest are still "Jury is out" or a big "Nope".
Look, no offense but this little experiment makes little sense. 12 years of drafts and you don't think more than 4 QBs were worth taking in the first two rounds? Jury is still out can't be overly used either or you could literally exclude everybody without a Super Bowl run which is silly.
Not for nothing, but in addition to the 4 slam dunks you mentioned above the list of guys that were worth taking imv should be expanded to at least include:
Herbert
Murray
Mayfield
Watson
Carr
Tannehill
Newton
Dalton
Stafford
1) Herbert, maybe. I like him but it's still too early for me.
2) You think Stafford, Newton, Murray and Mayfield have met expectations of the #1 pick in the draft? Not me. Not yet anyway.
3) Carr is a good one, as is Dalton. I'll give you those.
4) Would you have picked Tannehill before he got resurrected in Tennessee? He floundered for a long time.
Herbert killed it. Cannot leave off.
I am not certain every #1 pick needs to win a Super Bowl to be worthy of the pick. Stafford and Newton have had excellent years, and Murray and Mayfield have shown they belong just fine so far in helping also-rans.
No I wouldn't have picked Tannehill initially but since he clearly has shown so well as of late, no reason to exclude. Maybe this will be the way of Daniel Jones...
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If jones is a good qb, which we’ll know soon enough, one could make a case that jones was a bargain. Why? Because many qbs drafted required a trade up. Really not that hard to process.
Bye.
I don't have a problem with your point about not trading up for Jones. I get it.
But Jones was still the 6th pick in the draft. So whether he was acquired through a trade up or not, the expectations for such a high pick don't change. They should be high - a player who is a difference maker.
You seem to be doing some mental gymnastics here to brace for a softer landing if Jones struggles again this year...
Nope. Not in the least.
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Again, the really ironic thing is the premise of this thread is a prediction Jones has a chance to hit a number -- but just hitting that number would actually mean he was towards the bottom of the NFL.
Brandt is saying Jones has a chance to be one of the least productive TD passing QBs in the league.
And we're supposed to get excited about that?
Evidently.
If this situation were playing out in Dallas or Philly we'd be laughing our asses off.
Yep. Well all be excited if jones throws for only 20 tds despite that being a pretty pedestrian figure and plenty of jones defenders on this very thread pointing out the low total AND jones already eclipsed this total his rookie year.
You really believe that.
Great thread.
Classic...
BBI whines constantly that Jones/Giants don't get any respect in the sports media. So well-respected Gil Brandt comes along and puts out a nice optimistic take on DJ, but in doing so also includes a complete "airball" on expected TD passes as part of his analysis.
So BBI parses out the airball and takes the rest as all good stuff...haha!
How many people on this thread are actually saying 20TD's is a great number to shoot for?
I actually think "Classic BBi" is more akin to "Classic Googs", where the previously banned Clownshoes, who usually rips people for banging against the collective BBI, does it himself when he sees fit.
Way to take the bait as usual...
It does mean that Gil is 89 years old and is quite possibly experiencing age-related decline. Sad, but a fact of life. Considering that isn't just some slip of the tongue, 20 TDs in 2021 is criminally low for a franchise QB. If he only throws 20 and doesn't run for something stupid close to 10 TDs, I'll be almost certainly for drafting his replacement unless he loses half the offense to injuries for a significant time. Even then, gotta do better than that. Really no excuse for it with actual talent on the football field now and a line that isn't going to sink the team itself the first five weeks.