A purposeful campaign to mislead folks (see stu) snd as a result has caused folks to allege discrimination when there is none. I don’t enjoy seeing entities attempt to maximize revenue but sowing what are essentially lies regarding societal actions. Their actions have more ramifications than simply what xyz athlete gets paid.
RE: RE: Soccer players always been the hottest female athletes IMO.
A purposeful campaign to mislead folks (see stu) snd as a result has caused folks to allege discrimination when there is none. I don’t enjoy seeing entities attempt to maximize revenue but sowing what are essentially lies regarding societal actions. Their actions have more ramifications than simply what xyz athlete gets paid.
Believe me there are many ways to look at the pay structure here as well as the working conditions. How about the guys in here who readily parrot the male/female revenue disparity argument comparing it to basketball when it hasn't applied with soccer for at least 5 years? They are misinformed. I said the cba is the problem for them and the court agreed. As for women's issues in general they have gotten the short end of the stick for generations. Anything that helps change that is good and whether you agree or don't like it this issue helps.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Soccer players always been the hottest female athletes IMO.
I used to love the summer Olympics..now, Meh. Giants starting in less than a week
Plenty of people and I'm looking forward to watching it. The Giants don't play their first preseason game until mid- August, what exactly are you watching them do?
basically has 2 must win games now ..... is that right?
Yeah either way they'll have a tough quarter. Frankly as dominant as they've been since 2000 the past 8 years is a whole new level because they has never won back to back WC's and Olympics. So it wouldn't be a shock if they dont win gold here.
RE: RE: It has nothing to do with politics but it’s been
A purposeful campaign to mislead folks (see stu) snd as a result has caused folks to allege discrimination when there is none. I don’t enjoy seeing entities attempt to maximize revenue but sowing what are essentially lies regarding societal actions. Their actions have more ramifications than simply what xyz athlete gets paid.
Believe me there are many ways to look at the pay structure here as well as the working conditions. How about the guys in here who readily parrot the male/female revenue disparity argument comparing it to basketball when it hasn't applied with soccer for at least 5 years? They are misinformed. I said the cba is the problem for them and the court agreed. As for women's issues in general they have gotten the short end of the stick for generations. Anything that helps change that is good and whether you agree or don't like it this issue helps.
How are there many ways to look at the pay strucute as well as working conditions? They take in a larger percentage of their gate than the men do and are treated more like full time employees (with all the benefits than the mens side (which are essentially treated like independant contractors). They get
The woman's argument is essentially we win world cups so we deserve more money, which is asinine. They've based their legal argument around a cherry picked year in which the men played almost no games because they missed the world cup(a rare occurence).
This is a legal battle that has gone on for years now and I really want to know who is paying the women's lawyers. This is money that can be used to grow the game in America.
They've stifled the women's pro league because they didn't want the competition internationally. These aren't what I'd consider selfless role models like they are often portrayed.
The whole argument from the CBA perspective is interesting as well. They've really killed the competition for spots and probably why you are seeing them struggle recently. They are getting old, but the way its structured, it's hard to get young talent in because of severance deals. Just look at the cap numbers, they are unreal in the discrepancy. Making the USWNT is like getting a good government job.
There's really no excuse for the women not to play in the finals for the next 3 cycles (until the rest of the world catches up - and efforts have started) and yet I feel like there is a good chance we see them miss the finals the next time up.
The fact of the matter is the women were offered the same deal as the men and turned it down. Why? Because their current deal is better than the men's side. Their whole argument is we win world cups so we deserve more, which is asinine. Trying to use the women's pay gap and sexism in this argument when it's really just about specific women (fuck the rest of them) rubs people the wrong way. They had a chance to really grow the women's game professionally and turned their back on it. Not faulting them for it, but it is what it is. Don't expect everyone to be selfless heroes, but do have a problem when they are portrayed like that.
RE: RE: What does the fact that the men's team can beat the women's
Level of play. The top women in the world suck compared men's and advanced boys' teams. The women's team, arguably a top 3 women's side in the world, lost to a U-15 Dallas boys academy team in 2017.
Removing national team affiliation, why would I want to watch that? Their quality is far inferior to MLS academy, men's college, professional men's leagues, and men's national teams. Throw in the men's team as well. If I wasn't American, why would I watch them? I like Reyna, Dest, McKennie, and Pulisic, but they wouldn't be must watch if I wasn't American. Hopefully, Reyna can develop into a must watch player.
I tune into the USMNT and USWNT, because they represent the USA. I can only watch the semis/finals of women's soccer. I watch USMNT qualifying and major tournaments. The last qualifying cycle was hard to watch.
I wish the women's game the best, but their best product is far inferior to average and best men's products. I'd rather watch La Liga, EPL, CL and men's national team tournaments like WC, Euro, and Copa America.
RE: I believe the women's softball team started off with a win
A purposeful campaign to mislead folks (see stu) snd as a result has caused folks to allege discrimination when there is none. I don’t enjoy seeing entities attempt to maximize revenue but sowing what are essentially lies regarding societal actions. Their actions have more ramifications than simply what xyz athlete gets paid.
What exactly is misleading? On one hand, they do have a negotiated contract. But, they had little choice to agree. It's that or not play the game they love and are the best in the world at. They aren't even arguing to be paid because they are the best. They are arguing that they sell more tickets and merchandise and have a larger following than their US male counterparts, to go along with WAY more success than their counterparts, yet their pay, accommodations, etc. are all inferior. That is a reasonable argument, in my opinion.
RE: RE: RE: What does the fact that the men's team can beat the women's
Level of play. The top women in the world suck compared men's and advanced boys' teams. The women's team, arguably a top 3 women's side in the world, lost to a U-15 Dallas boys academy team in 2017.
Removing national team affiliation, why would I want to watch that? Their quality is far inferior to MLS academy, men's college, professional men's leagues, and men's national teams. Throw in the men's team as well. If I wasn't American, why would I watch them? I like Reyna, Dest, McKennie, and Pulisic, but they wouldn't be must watch if I wasn't American. Hopefully, Reyna can develop into a must watch player.
I tune into the USMNT and USWNT, because they represent the USA. I can only watch the semis/finals of women's soccer. I watch USMNT qualifying and major tournaments. The last qualifying cycle was hard to watch.
I wish the women's game the best, but their best product is far inferior to average and best men's products. I'd rather watch La Liga, EPL, CL and men's national team tournaments like WC, Euro, and Copa America.
DC - I don't agree with that. Whether they can beat the men's team or any other men's team is irrelevant. Their team in comparison to other women's national teams is what's important. Those games, I find, fun and exciting to watch and they are the best in the world at it.
RE: RE: It has nothing to do with politics but it’s been
A purposeful campaign to mislead folks (see stu) snd as a result has caused folks to allege discrimination when there is none. I don’t enjoy seeing entities attempt to maximize revenue but sowing what are essentially lies regarding societal actions. Their actions have more ramifications than simply what xyz athlete gets paid.
What exactly is misleading? On one hand, they do have a negotiated contract. But, they had little choice to agree. It's that or not play the game they love and are the best in the world at. They aren't even arguing to be paid because they are the best. They are arguing that they sell more tickets and merchandise and have a larger following than their US male counterparts, to go along with WAY more success than their counterparts, yet their pay, accommodations, etc. are all inferior. That is a reasonable argument, in my opinion.
Saw a couple of posts up earlier in this thread and will look into it further. My understanding was they had a beef with the US governing body; I was not aware of anything to do with FIFA. Again, my understanding was stritly for participation on the US team, they received less pay and lesser accommodations (including training facilities and the like).
Just reading some of the Tweets from US Soccer is interesting.
RE: RE: RE: What does the fact that the men's team can beat the women's
Level of play. The top women in the world suck compared men's and advanced boys' teams. The women's team, arguably a top 3 women's side in the world, lost to a U-15 Dallas boys academy team in 2017.
Removing national team affiliation, why would I want to watch that? Their quality is far inferior to MLS academy, men's college, professional men's leagues, and men's national teams. Throw in the men's team as well. If I wasn't American, why would I watch them? I like Reyna, Dest, McKennie, and Pulisic, but they wouldn't be must watch if I wasn't American. Hopefully, Reyna can develop into a must watch player.
I tune into the USMNT and USWNT, because they represent the USA. I can only watch the semis/finals of women's soccer. I watch USMNT qualifying and major tournaments. The last qualifying cycle was hard to watch.
I wish the women's game the best, but their best product is far inferior to average and best men's products. I'd rather watch La Liga, EPL, CL and men's national team tournaments like WC, Euro, and Copa America.
I just have a different view I guess as a casual Soccer fan. The USWNT is the team I want to watch, they are the draw. I watch their friendlies. I dont watch any of the Mens games. and I think what I'm watching is the best women in the world playing aka the level of play is the highest possible for women. But I also really enjoyed the Women's March Madness this year so maybe I'm weird.
Do you not watch March Madness because its not the NBA? Even though its the best college teams?
I had no idea so many sports fans harbored such a deep personal butthurt over the financial side of women's sports.
Butthurt? Hardly. In fact, most aren't even champions for women's sports in general. In most cases, the women's sport is less watched and generates less revenue. In this particular case, and only in terms of the national teams, the women's product is far superior. They have far more success for a sustained period of time (decades) and they do generate more revenue and interest.
I had no idea so many sports fans harbored such a deep personal butthurt over the financial side of women's sports.
Butthurt? Hardly. In fact, most aren't even champions for women's sports in general. In most cases, the women's sport is less watched and generates less revenue. In this particular case, and only in terms of the national teams, the women's product is far superior. They have far more success for a sustained period of time (decades) and they do generate more revenue and interest.
That said, I do retract my earlier comments about their suit. It does appear they are misrepresenting their situation through the media and the current contract, which they requested and signed is not only fair, but guarantees them more money than the men. Yes, technically the men will get more money per game if they play and more if they win, but they get no money if they don't play.
If I understand it correctly, the USWNT members not only generate a six figure salary + benefits whether they play or not, but they also receive a near six figure salary guaranteed by US Soccer for playing in the NWSL. So, for example, during COVID lockdowns, when no games were played, they were receiving paychecks every 2 weeks plus benefits, while their male counterparts received nothing. Do I have this correct?
I had no idea so many sports fans harbored such a deep personal butthurt over the financial side of women's sports.
Butthurt? Hardly. In fact, most aren't even champions for women's sports in general. In most cases, the women's sport is less watched and generates less revenue. In this particular case, and only in terms of the national teams, the women's product is far superior. They have far more success for a sustained period of time (decades) and they do generate more revenue and interest.
That said, I do retract my earlier comments about their suit. It does appear they are misrepresenting their situation through the media and the current contract, which they requested and signed is not only fair, but guarantees them more money than the men. Yes, technically the men will get more money per game if they play and more if they win, but they get no money if they don't play.
If I understand it correctly, the USWNT members not only generate a six figure salary + benefits whether they play or not, but they also receive a near six figure salary guaranteed by US Soccer for playing in the NWSL. So, for example, during COVID lockdowns, when no games were played, they were receiving paychecks every 2 weeks plus benefits, while their male counterparts received nothing. Do I have this correct?
Don't exactly remember the numbers, but this seems to jive with my recollection. I followed it quite a bit as I deal with employment discrimination in my work quite a bit.
In short, the women wanted more security and benefits. The men usually got that in their regular soccer jobs, overseas or MLS.
I had no idea so many sports fans harbored such a deep personal butthurt over the financial side of women's sports.
Butthurt? Hardly. In fact, most aren't even champions for women's sports in general. In most cases, the women's sport is less watched and generates less revenue. In this particular case, and only in terms of the national teams, the women's product is far superior. They have far more success for a sustained period of time (decades) and they do generate more revenue and interest.
That said, I do retract my earlier comments about their suit. It does appear they are misrepresenting their situation through the media and the current contract, which they requested and signed is not only fair, but guarantees them more money than the men. Yes, technically the men will get more money per game if they play and more if they win, but they get no money if they don't play.
If I understand it correctly, the USWNT members not only generate a six figure salary + benefits whether they play or not, but they also receive a near six figure salary guaranteed by US Soccer for playing in the NWSL. So, for example, during COVID lockdowns, when no games were played, they were receiving paychecks every 2 weeks plus benefits, while their male counterparts received nothing. Do I have this correct?
Don't exactly remember the numbers, but this seems to jive with my recollection. I followed it quite a bit as I deal with employment discrimination in my work quite a bit.
In short, the women wanted more security and benefits. The men usually got that in their regular soccer jobs, overseas or MLS.
But, it sounds like they have that security and benefits now.
the women turned down the pay-for-play. Whether circumstances/goals have changed, they may decide differently when the next contract is up. But dishonestly playing victim the way they have is a bizarre way to go about things.
I used to love the summer Olympics..now, Meh. Giants starting in less than a week
Plenty of people and I'm looking forward to watching it. The Giants don't play their first preseason game until mid- August, what exactly are you watching them do?
I'll watch the Golf portion. The rest? naw too much bullshit Im out
They've extracted major concessions on the conditions and accommodations front, received a written apology and retraction on the equal skill argument, and most importantly have won in the court of public opinion.
Seems like expert strategizing as they go into the next round of collective bargaining.
I think this falls under the legal statute of don't hate the player, hate the game.
They've extracted major concessions on the conditions and accommodations front, received a written apology and retraction on the equal skill argument, and most importantly have won in the court of public opinion.
Seems like expert strategizing as they go into the next round of collective bargaining.
I think this falls under the legal statute of don't hate the player, hate the game.
What I take issue with is all this legal representation is expensive and taking away from the coffers to develop the game locally. I really don't think the average person understands how soccer is financed in this country since its unlike any other sport.
I certainly hate the player and the game in this aspect. Doing shitty things for money, still makes you shitty. In fact, it makes you even shittier imo.
Is that I would never begrudge them for trying to make as much as possible for being the best at what they do. They however have done it is a completely deplorable manner where they frankly have lied and accused a bunch of people of being discriminatory when that simply wasn’t the case. IMO it’s reprehensible to make people look bigoted so that you have a stronger negotiating opinion and detrimental to society.
They've extracted major concessions on the conditions and accommodations front, received a written apology and retraction on the equal skill argument, and most importantly have won in the court of public opinion.
Seems like expert strategizing as they go into the next round of collective bargaining.
I think this falls under the legal statute of don't hate the player, hate the game.
What I take issue with is all this legal representation is expensive and taking away from the coffers to develop the game locally. I really don't think the average person understands how soccer is financed in this country since its unlike any other sport.
I certainly hate the player and the game in this aspect. Doing shitty things for money, still makes you shitty. In fact, it makes you even shittier imo.
Wouldn't legal fees come out of the Woman's team union fees?
And I bet the US soccer federation (or whatever they're called) already has an internal team of lawyers on staff. How much extra in legal fees do you think they're paying?
They've extracted major concessions on the conditions and accommodations front, received a written apology and retraction on the equal skill argument, and most importantly have won in the court of public opinion.
Seems like expert strategizing as they go into the next round of collective bargaining.
I think this falls under the legal statute of don't hate the player, hate the game.
What I take issue with is all this legal representation is expensive and taking away from the coffers to develop the game locally. I really don't think the average person understands how soccer is financed in this country since its unlike any other sport.
I certainly hate the player and the game in this aspect. Doing shitty things for money, still makes you shitty. In fact, it makes you even shittier imo.
Well said. And from my perspective who represents workers (include many who are exploited - illegal immigrants, etc.), and deals with employment discrimination issues on a frequent basis, I find their behavior particularly reprehensible. It's just like women who cry rape when there is none. I don't understand the "well, it's bringing attention to issue attitude." Yes, and it's being shown to be a farce, and indirectly harming the credibility of those who have been actually harmed in similar situations.
They've extracted major concessions on the conditions and accommodations front, received a written apology and retraction on the equal skill argument, and most importantly have won in the court of public opinion.
Seems like expert strategizing as they go into the next round of collective bargaining.
I think this falls under the legal statute of don't hate the player, hate the game.
What I take issue with is all this legal representation is expensive and taking away from the coffers to develop the game locally. I really don't think the average person understands how soccer is financed in this country since its unlike any other sport.
I certainly hate the player and the game in this aspect. Doing shitty things for money, still makes you shitty. In fact, it makes you even shittier imo.
Wouldn't legal fees come out of the Woman's team union fees?
And I bet the US soccer federation (or whatever they're called) already has an internal team of lawyers on staff. How much extra in legal fees do you think they're paying?
They are going to hand the bill over to US Soccer at the next CBA, guarantee it. No way that is coming out of their pay right now, don't think they could even afford it. This lawsuit is going on for years now. Which makes them even more unlikeable.
Level of play. The top women in the world suck compared men's and advanced boys' teams. The women's team, arguably a top 3 women's side in the world, lost to a U-15 Dallas boys academy team in 2017.
Removing national team affiliation, why would I want to watch that? Their quality is far inferior to MLS academy, men's college, professional men's leagues, and men's national teams. Throw in the men's team as well. If I wasn't American, why would I watch them? I like Reyna, Dest, McKennie, and Pulisic, but they wouldn't be must watch if I wasn't American. Hopefully, Reyna can develop into a must watch player.
I tune into the USMNT and USWNT, because they represent the USA. I can only watch the semis/finals of women's soccer. I watch USMNT qualifying and major tournaments. The last qualifying cycle was hard to watch.
I wish the women's game the best, but their best product is far inferior to average and best men's products. I'd rather watch La Liga, EPL, CL and men's national team tournaments like WC, Euro, and Copa America.
I just have a different view I guess as a casual Soccer fan. The USWNT is the team I want to watch, they are the draw. I watch their friendlies. I dont watch any of the Mens games. and I think what I'm watching is the best women in the world playing aka the level of play is the highest possible for women. But I also really enjoyed the Women's March Madness this year so maybe I'm weird.
Do you not watch March Madness because its not the NBA? Even though its the best college teams?
The only college sports games I watch involve my school.
They are going to hand the bill over to US Soccer at the next CBA, guarantee it. No way that is coming out of their pay right now, don't think they could even afford it. This lawsuit is going on for years now. Which makes them even more unlikeable.
Not that fees aren’t substantial, but I think you’re overestimating the cost of outside counsel for US soccer. This isn’t a a league bankrupting type action.
And the union doesn’t have recourse to collect legal fees via collective bargaining for pending litigation.
This isn’t an atypical tactic to get the upper hand in bargaining.
There’s a good chance this suit cleared enough of the framework upfront that the mediation exercise will be very short, and actually cost both sides less in legal fees.
They are going to hand the bill over to US Soccer at the next CBA, guarantee it. No way that is coming out of their pay right now, don't think they could even afford it. This lawsuit is going on for years now. Which makes them even more unlikeable.
Not that fees aren’t substantial, but I think you’re overestimating the cost of outside counsel for US soccer. This isn’t a a league bankrupting type action.
And the union doesn’t have recourse to collect legal fees via collective bargaining for pending litigation.
This isn’t an atypical tactic to get the upper hand in bargaining.
There’s a good chance this suit cleared enough of the framework upfront that the mediation exercise will be very short, and actually cost both sides less in legal fees.
Are you saying that years of unnecessary legal fees is justifiable because of shorter arbitration for the next CBA? If that's what you are saying, I'm going to have to disagree, but I could certainly be confused as IANAL.
They are literally asking for money that US Soccer doesn't have and their real beef is with FIFA. The whole point of this is to put pressure on US Soccer to pay the prize pool out equally for mens and womens world cup. That isn't happening in a billion years because if it were possible, USWNT would have just brought this to FIFA itself. They know its a waste of time, but the want US Soccer to waste resources on a case. Like yeah I'm sure they have in-house consul, but for a case like that I have to imagine they would need to bring in outsiders and pay them as well. Or increase your law staff.
That should read put pressure on FIFA to pay out the Mens and Womens
The gender discrimination suit was filed in 2019, this isn’t Gaines Vs. New Orleans. No one is going bankrupt over 2.5 years of action.
If you want to take exception for the legal maneuvering to play this out in civil court to stack the deck for the upcoming CBA, I get that.
And you’re right, there was no chance this action was going to compel FIFA to pay out an equal pool, or US soccer to eat it or split the pool evenly.
This was a play for the court of public opinion to get an advantage going to negotiations for the 21 CBA renewal, and to get some easy wins on the travel and conditions.
doesn't affect me AT ALL. Like not even a little bit. I couldn't care less. And I'm a big soccer fan. Some folks are really up in arms about some female soccer players. If you really think playing the women is holding back the men's team, I just don't really know what to say to that. This discussion is bizarre and funny, however - so thank you for that.
RE: RE: It has nothing to do with politics but it’s been
In comment 15309404 bhill410 said:
Quote: A purposeful campaign to mislead folks (see stu) snd as a result has caused folks to allege discrimination when there is none. I don’t enjoy seeing entities attempt to maximize revenue but sowing what are essentially lies regarding societal actions. Their actions have more ramifications than simply what xyz athlete gets paid.///
Believe me there are many ways to look at the pay structure here as well as the working conditions. How about the guys in here who readily parrot the male/female revenue disparity argument comparing it to basketball when it hasn't applied with soccer for at least 5 years? They are misinformed. I said the cba is the problem for them and the court agreed. As for women's issues in general they have gotten the short end of the stick for generations. Anything that helps change that is good and whether you agree or don't like it this issue helps.
Good post, Stu. Part of the disconnect in perceptions on the part of some of the 'caliber' of mens' vs womens' soccer and whether their payscales should be equivalent revolves around glib (imo) notions that a U17 mens' team could whip the USWNT 4 of 5 or 5 of 5; maybe, but for me that's not the point: for almost a decade now USWNT plays a 'style' of soccer, cohesion, concept, teamwork, tactics, and fundamentals that I enjoy watching (as in Sue Bird as a PG), it seems to me executed in a way the game is meant to be played, while the USMNT is most often, for the better part of a decade, again to my eye, just a mess on the pitch. It doesn't matter to me that USMNT might beat the pants off the girls.
I think it's a good thing for women's soccer--and for USWNT. Notwithstanding its lone non-win in last 21 (?) matches came vs Sweden this Spring, they came out as an entitled team and got their asses whipped. Sweden is bigger, faster (in most cases), just as experienced, plays an excellent technical game--its execution on set pieces was terrific and USWNT team laid an egg. Moreover, SWE played physically, edgy, aggressively, and smartly: US women were interested in theatrical simulation attempts trying to draw fouls when, most often, there were none. USA have to re-tool their mindset the rest of the way or they will be outside looking in.
are actually on live, being in Tokyo). Came away thinking two things.
If you don't mark the opposing players closely, they will score. Same as it ever was.
If you have any liking for how the USWNT looks, you'll love Sweden. Holy moly. 11 tall blond physically fit women who also play as a unit and seem likable.
They don’t have the same job as the men. One plays women’s soccer vs other sr women’s intl teams. And the other plays men’s soccer vs other sr men’s intl teams. So the comparisons between them aren’t great.
They have lied and mislead the public about their fight for “equal” pay. This makes them unlikable in my view, similar to you not liking a player because he’s holding out. They’ve taken it further by claiming gender discrimination where there isn’t any and lying.
They are extremely good at their job. They should fight for what they think it’s worth. Unfortunately for them they agreed to the wrong structure and I think wrong public discussion.
RE: RE: RE: Soccer players always been the hottest female athletes IMO.
They don’t have the same job as the men. One plays women’s soccer vs other sr women’s intl teams. And the other plays men’s soccer vs other sr men’s intl teams. So the comparisons between them aren’t great.
They have lied and mislead the public about their fight for “equal” pay. This makes them unlikable in my view, similar to you not liking a player because he’s holding out. They’ve taken it further by claiming gender discrimination where there isn’t any and lying.
They are extremely good at their job. They should fight for what they think it’s worth. Unfortunately for them they agreed to the wrong structure and I think wrong public discussion.
Did they fight for the wrong structure or did they get greedy? It sounds like they have a sweet deal.
That said, I hope you're not looking forward to Megan Rapinoe modeling for Victoria's Secret
Quote:
Alex Morgan is unbelievable.
That said, I hope you're not looking forward to Megan Rapinoe modeling for Victoria's Secret
Or Hope Solo's mud flaps. Yikes.
Quote:
In comment 15309395 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Alex Morgan is unbelievable.
That said, I hope you're not looking forward to Megan Rapinoe modeling for Victoria's Secret
Or Hope Solo's mud flaps. Yikes.
Now I'm thinking Arby's for lunch...
Quote:
Alex Morgan is unbelievable.
That said, I hope you're not looking forward to Megan Rapinoe modeling for Victoria's Secret
Believe me there are many ways to look at the pay structure here as well as the working conditions. How about the guys in here who readily parrot the male/female revenue disparity argument comparing it to basketball when it hasn't applied with soccer for at least 5 years? They are misinformed. I said the cba is the problem for them and the court agreed. As for women's issues in general they have gotten the short end of the stick for generations. Anything that helps change that is good and whether you agree or don't like it this issue helps.
Quote:
In comment 15309401 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15309395 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Alex Morgan is unbelievable.
That said, I hope you're not looking forward to Megan Rapinoe modeling for Victoria's Secret
Or Hope Solo's mud flaps. Yikes.
Now I'm thinking Arby's for lunch...
All beef. Hold the cheddar.
Plenty of people and I'm looking forward to watching it. The Giants don't play their first preseason game until mid- August, what exactly are you watching them do?
Yeah either way they'll have a tough quarter. Frankly as dominant as they've been since 2000 the past 8 years is a whole new level because they has never won back to back WC's and Olympics. So it wouldn't be a shock if they dont win gold here.
Quote:
A purposeful campaign to mislead folks (see stu) snd as a result has caused folks to allege discrimination when there is none. I don’t enjoy seeing entities attempt to maximize revenue but sowing what are essentially lies regarding societal actions. Their actions have more ramifications than simply what xyz athlete gets paid.
Believe me there are many ways to look at the pay structure here as well as the working conditions. How about the guys in here who readily parrot the male/female revenue disparity argument comparing it to basketball when it hasn't applied with soccer for at least 5 years? They are misinformed. I said the cba is the problem for them and the court agreed. As for women's issues in general they have gotten the short end of the stick for generations. Anything that helps change that is good and whether you agree or don't like it this issue helps.
How are there many ways to look at the pay strucute as well as working conditions? They take in a larger percentage of their gate than the men do and are treated more like full time employees (with all the benefits than the mens side (which are essentially treated like independant contractors). They get
The woman's argument is essentially we win world cups so we deserve more money, which is asinine. They've based their legal argument around a cherry picked year in which the men played almost no games because they missed the world cup(a rare occurence).
This is a legal battle that has gone on for years now and I really want to know who is paying the women's lawyers. This is money that can be used to grow the game in America.
They've stifled the women's pro league because they didn't want the competition internationally. These aren't what I'd consider selfless role models like they are often portrayed.
The whole argument from the CBA perspective is interesting as well. They've really killed the competition for spots and probably why you are seeing them struggle recently. They are getting old, but the way its structured, it's hard to get young talent in because of severance deals. Just look at the cap numbers, they are unreal in the discrepancy. Making the USWNT is like getting a good government job.
There's really no excuse for the women not to play in the finals for the next 3 cycles (until the rest of the world catches up - and efforts have started) and yet I feel like there is a good chance we see them miss the finals the next time up.
The fact of the matter is the women were offered the same deal as the men and turned it down. Why? Because their current deal is better than the men's side. Their whole argument is we win world cups so we deserve more, which is asinine. Trying to use the women's pay gap and sexism in this argument when it's really just about specific women (fuck the rest of them) rubs people the wrong way. They had a chance to really grow the women's game professionally and turned their back on it. Not faulting them for it, but it is what it is. Don't expect everyone to be selfless heroes, but do have a problem when they are portrayed like that.
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team have anything to do with this?
What a weird and stupid comment that was!
When it comes to watchability?
Level of play. The top women in the world suck compared men's and advanced boys' teams. The women's team, arguably a top 3 women's side in the world, lost to a U-15 Dallas boys academy team in 2017.
Removing national team affiliation, why would I want to watch that? Their quality is far inferior to MLS academy, men's college, professional men's leagues, and men's national teams. Throw in the men's team as well. If I wasn't American, why would I watch them? I like Reyna, Dest, McKennie, and Pulisic, but they wouldn't be must watch if I wasn't American. Hopefully, Reyna can develop into a must watch player.
I tune into the USMNT and USWNT, because they represent the USA. I can only watch the semis/finals of women's soccer. I watch USMNT qualifying and major tournaments. The last qualifying cycle was hard to watch.
I wish the women's game the best, but their best product is far inferior to average and best men's products. I'd rather watch La Liga, EPL, CL and men's national team tournaments like WC, Euro, and Copa America.
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In comment 15309334 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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team have anything to do with this?
What a weird and stupid comment that was!
When it comes to watchability?
Level of play. The top women in the world suck compared men's and advanced boys' teams. The women's team, arguably a top 3 women's side in the world, lost to a U-15 Dallas boys academy team in 2017.
Removing national team affiliation, why would I want to watch that? Their quality is far inferior to MLS academy, men's college, professional men's leagues, and men's national teams. Throw in the men's team as well. If I wasn't American, why would I watch them? I like Reyna, Dest, McKennie, and Pulisic, but they wouldn't be must watch if I wasn't American. Hopefully, Reyna can develop into a must watch player.
I tune into the USMNT and USWNT, because they represent the USA. I can only watch the semis/finals of women's soccer. I watch USMNT qualifying and major tournaments. The last qualifying cycle was hard to watch.
I wish the women's game the best, but their best product is far inferior to average and best men's products. I'd rather watch La Liga, EPL, CL and men's national team tournaments like WC, Euro, and Copa America.
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A purposeful campaign to mislead folks (see stu) snd as a result has caused folks to allege discrimination when there is none. I don’t enjoy seeing entities attempt to maximize revenue but sowing what are essentially lies regarding societal actions. Their actions have more ramifications than simply what xyz athlete gets paid.
What exactly is misleading? On one hand, they do have a negotiated contract. But, they had little choice to agree. It's that or not play the game they love and are the best in the world at. They aren't even arguing to be paid because they are the best. They are arguing that they sell more tickets and merchandise and have a larger following than their US male counterparts, to go along with WAY more success than their counterparts, yet their pay, accommodations, etc. are all inferior. That is a reasonable argument, in my opinion.
Just reading some of the Tweets from US Soccer is interesting.
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In comment 15309334 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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team have anything to do with this?
What a weird and stupid comment that was!
When it comes to watchability?
Level of play. The top women in the world suck compared men's and advanced boys' teams. The women's team, arguably a top 3 women's side in the world, lost to a U-15 Dallas boys academy team in 2017.
Removing national team affiliation, why would I want to watch that? Their quality is far inferior to MLS academy, men's college, professional men's leagues, and men's national teams. Throw in the men's team as well. If I wasn't American, why would I watch them? I like Reyna, Dest, McKennie, and Pulisic, but they wouldn't be must watch if I wasn't American. Hopefully, Reyna can develop into a must watch player.
I tune into the USMNT and USWNT, because they represent the USA. I can only watch the semis/finals of women's soccer. I watch USMNT qualifying and major tournaments. The last qualifying cycle was hard to watch.
I wish the women's game the best, but their best product is far inferior to average and best men's products. I'd rather watch La Liga, EPL, CL and men's national team tournaments like WC, Euro, and Copa America.
I just have a different view I guess as a casual Soccer fan. The USWNT is the team I want to watch, they are the draw. I watch their friendlies. I dont watch any of the Mens games. and I think what I'm watching is the best women in the world playing aka the level of play is the highest possible for women. But I also really enjoyed the Women's March Madness this year so maybe I'm weird.
Do you not watch March Madness because its not the NBA? Even though its the best college teams?
Look at UConn Women vs. Men - there's no question who's the more skillful team and the quality of play is a glaring and obvious example.
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I had no idea so many sports fans harbored such a deep personal butthurt over the financial side of women's sports.
Butthurt? Hardly. In fact, most aren't even champions for women's sports in general. In most cases, the women's sport is less watched and generates less revenue. In this particular case, and only in terms of the national teams, the women's product is far superior. They have far more success for a sustained period of time (decades) and they do generate more revenue and interest.
If I understand it correctly, the USWNT members not only generate a six figure salary + benefits whether they play or not, but they also receive a near six figure salary guaranteed by US Soccer for playing in the NWSL. So, for example, during COVID lockdowns, when no games were played, they were receiving paychecks every 2 weeks plus benefits, while their male counterparts received nothing. Do I have this correct?
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In comment 15309509 TJ said:
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I had no idea so many sports fans harbored such a deep personal butthurt over the financial side of women's sports.
Butthurt? Hardly. In fact, most aren't even champions for women's sports in general. In most cases, the women's sport is less watched and generates less revenue. In this particular case, and only in terms of the national teams, the women's product is far superior. They have far more success for a sustained period of time (decades) and they do generate more revenue and interest.
That said, I do retract my earlier comments about their suit. It does appear they are misrepresenting their situation through the media and the current contract, which they requested and signed is not only fair, but guarantees them more money than the men. Yes, technically the men will get more money per game if they play and more if they win, but they get no money if they don't play.
If I understand it correctly, the USWNT members not only generate a six figure salary + benefits whether they play or not, but they also receive a near six figure salary guaranteed by US Soccer for playing in the NWSL. So, for example, during COVID lockdowns, when no games were played, they were receiving paychecks every 2 weeks plus benefits, while their male counterparts received nothing. Do I have this correct?
Don't exactly remember the numbers, but this seems to jive with my recollection. I followed it quite a bit as I deal with employment discrimination in my work quite a bit.
In short, the women wanted more security and benefits. The men usually got that in their regular soccer jobs, overseas or MLS.
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In comment 15309548 Matt M. said:
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In comment 15309509 TJ said:
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I had no idea so many sports fans harbored such a deep personal butthurt over the financial side of women's sports.
Butthurt? Hardly. In fact, most aren't even champions for women's sports in general. In most cases, the women's sport is less watched and generates less revenue. In this particular case, and only in terms of the national teams, the women's product is far superior. They have far more success for a sustained period of time (decades) and they do generate more revenue and interest.
That said, I do retract my earlier comments about their suit. It does appear they are misrepresenting their situation through the media and the current contract, which they requested and signed is not only fair, but guarantees them more money than the men. Yes, technically the men will get more money per game if they play and more if they win, but they get no money if they don't play.
If I understand it correctly, the USWNT members not only generate a six figure salary + benefits whether they play or not, but they also receive a near six figure salary guaranteed by US Soccer for playing in the NWSL. So, for example, during COVID lockdowns, when no games were played, they were receiving paychecks every 2 weeks plus benefits, while their male counterparts received nothing. Do I have this correct?
Don't exactly remember the numbers, but this seems to jive with my recollection. I followed it quite a bit as I deal with employment discrimination in my work quite a bit.
In short, the women wanted more security and benefits. The men usually got that in their regular soccer jobs, overseas or MLS.
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I used to love the summer Olympics..now, Meh. Giants starting in less than a week
Plenty of people and I'm looking forward to watching it. The Giants don't play their first preseason game until mid- August, what exactly are you watching them do?
I'll watch the Golf portion. The rest? naw too much bullshit Im out
Seems like expert strategizing as they go into the next round of collective bargaining.
I think this falls under the legal statute of don't hate the player, hate the game.
Seems like expert strategizing as they go into the next round of collective bargaining.
I think this falls under the legal statute of don't hate the player, hate the game.
What I take issue with is all this legal representation is expensive and taking away from the coffers to develop the game locally. I really don't think the average person understands how soccer is financed in this country since its unlike any other sport.
I certainly hate the player and the game in this aspect. Doing shitty things for money, still makes you shitty. In fact, it makes you even shittier imo.
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They've extracted major concessions on the conditions and accommodations front, received a written apology and retraction on the equal skill argument, and most importantly have won in the court of public opinion.
Seems like expert strategizing as they go into the next round of collective bargaining.
I think this falls under the legal statute of don't hate the player, hate the game.
What I take issue with is all this legal representation is expensive and taking away from the coffers to develop the game locally. I really don't think the average person understands how soccer is financed in this country since its unlike any other sport.
I certainly hate the player and the game in this aspect. Doing shitty things for money, still makes you shitty. In fact, it makes you even shittier imo.
Wouldn't legal fees come out of the Woman's team union fees?
And I bet the US soccer federation (or whatever they're called) already has an internal team of lawyers on staff. How much extra in legal fees do you think they're paying?
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They've extracted major concessions on the conditions and accommodations front, received a written apology and retraction on the equal skill argument, and most importantly have won in the court of public opinion.
Seems like expert strategizing as they go into the next round of collective bargaining.
I think this falls under the legal statute of don't hate the player, hate the game.
What I take issue with is all this legal representation is expensive and taking away from the coffers to develop the game locally. I really don't think the average person understands how soccer is financed in this country since its unlike any other sport.
I certainly hate the player and the game in this aspect. Doing shitty things for money, still makes you shitty. In fact, it makes you even shittier imo.
Well said. And from my perspective who represents workers (include many who are exploited - illegal immigrants, etc.), and deals with employment discrimination issues on a frequent basis, I find their behavior particularly reprehensible. It's just like women who cry rape when there is none. I don't understand the "well, it's bringing attention to issue attitude." Yes, and it's being shown to be a farce, and indirectly harming the credibility of those who have been actually harmed in similar situations.
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In comment 15309299 Joey from GlenCove said:
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but they are so unlikeable
Why are they unlikeable?
because they publicly mislead and lie about their pay and they have an overt political agenda.
Great team no doubt, best womens team in the world
So they don't get paid less than their male counterparts? Is that the lie?
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In comment 15309621 christian said:
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They've extracted major concessions on the conditions and accommodations front, received a written apology and retraction on the equal skill argument, and most importantly have won in the court of public opinion.
Seems like expert strategizing as they go into the next round of collective bargaining.
I think this falls under the legal statute of don't hate the player, hate the game.
What I take issue with is all this legal representation is expensive and taking away from the coffers to develop the game locally. I really don't think the average person understands how soccer is financed in this country since its unlike any other sport.
I certainly hate the player and the game in this aspect. Doing shitty things for money, still makes you shitty. In fact, it makes you even shittier imo.
Wouldn't legal fees come out of the Woman's team union fees?
And I bet the US soccer federation (or whatever they're called) already has an internal team of lawyers on staff. How much extra in legal fees do you think they're paying?
They are going to hand the bill over to US Soccer at the next CBA, guarantee it. No way that is coming out of their pay right now, don't think they could even afford it. This lawsuit is going on for years now. Which makes them even more unlikeable.
No way man, equality. Excluding the women from any criticism or any fun joking around is indeed sexist.
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In comment 15309351 NYG22 said:
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In comment 15309334 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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team have anything to do with this?
What a weird and stupid comment that was!
When it comes to watchability?
Level of play. The top women in the world suck compared men's and advanced boys' teams. The women's team, arguably a top 3 women's side in the world, lost to a U-15 Dallas boys academy team in 2017.
Removing national team affiliation, why would I want to watch that? Their quality is far inferior to MLS academy, men's college, professional men's leagues, and men's national teams. Throw in the men's team as well. If I wasn't American, why would I watch them? I like Reyna, Dest, McKennie, and Pulisic, but they wouldn't be must watch if I wasn't American. Hopefully, Reyna can develop into a must watch player.
I tune into the USMNT and USWNT, because they represent the USA. I can only watch the semis/finals of women's soccer. I watch USMNT qualifying and major tournaments. The last qualifying cycle was hard to watch.
I wish the women's game the best, but their best product is far inferior to average and best men's products. I'd rather watch La Liga, EPL, CL and men's national team tournaments like WC, Euro, and Copa America.
I just have a different view I guess as a casual Soccer fan. The USWNT is the team I want to watch, they are the draw. I watch their friendlies. I dont watch any of the Mens games. and I think what I'm watching is the best women in the world playing aka the level of play is the highest possible for women. But I also really enjoyed the Women's March Madness this year so maybe I'm weird.
Do you not watch March Madness because its not the NBA? Even though its the best college teams?
The only college sports games I watch involve my school.
Not that fees aren’t substantial, but I think you’re overestimating the cost of outside counsel for US soccer. This isn’t a a league bankrupting type action.
And the union doesn’t have recourse to collect legal fees via collective bargaining for pending litigation.
This isn’t an atypical tactic to get the upper hand in bargaining.
There’s a good chance this suit cleared enough of the framework upfront that the mediation exercise will be very short, and actually cost both sides less in legal fees.
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They are going to hand the bill over to US Soccer at the next CBA, guarantee it. No way that is coming out of their pay right now, don't think they could even afford it. This lawsuit is going on for years now. Which makes them even more unlikeable.
Not that fees aren’t substantial, but I think you’re overestimating the cost of outside counsel for US soccer. This isn’t a a league bankrupting type action.
And the union doesn’t have recourse to collect legal fees via collective bargaining for pending litigation.
This isn’t an atypical tactic to get the upper hand in bargaining.
There’s a good chance this suit cleared enough of the framework upfront that the mediation exercise will be very short, and actually cost both sides less in legal fees.
Are you saying that years of unnecessary legal fees is justifiable because of shorter arbitration for the next CBA? If that's what you are saying, I'm going to have to disagree, but I could certainly be confused as IANAL.
They are literally asking for money that US Soccer doesn't have and their real beef is with FIFA. The whole point of this is to put pressure on US Soccer to pay the prize pool out equally for mens and womens world cup. That isn't happening in a billion years because if it were possible, USWNT would have just brought this to FIFA itself. They know its a waste of time, but the want US Soccer to waste resources on a case. Like yeah I'm sure they have in-house consul, but for a case like that I have to imagine they would need to bring in outsiders and pay them as well. Or increase your law staff.
If you want to take exception for the legal maneuvering to play this out in civil court to stack the deck for the upcoming CBA, I get that.
And you’re right, there was no chance this action was going to compel FIFA to pay out an equal pool, or US soccer to eat it or split the pool evenly.
This was a play for the court of public opinion to get an advantage going to negotiations for the 21 CBA renewal, and to get some easy wins on the travel and conditions.
If this is sensibility offending, so be it.
Quote: A purposeful campaign to mislead folks (see stu) snd as a result has caused folks to allege discrimination when there is none. I don’t enjoy seeing entities attempt to maximize revenue but sowing what are essentially lies regarding societal actions. Their actions have more ramifications than simply what xyz athlete gets paid.///
Believe me there are many ways to look at the pay structure here as well as the working conditions. How about the guys in here who readily parrot the male/female revenue disparity argument comparing it to basketball when it hasn't applied with soccer for at least 5 years? They are misinformed. I said the cba is the problem for them and the court agreed. As for women's issues in general they have gotten the short end of the stick for generations. Anything that helps change that is good and whether you agree or don't like it this issue helps.
2.) Politics and sports should not mix, especially at the Olympics
3.) Whatever the players (both teams) get paid I could care less. Not my business.
4.) To fabricate pay issues in public is a tactic, however lying about the issues for public consumption is poor judgement
5.) I hope they rally and make it out of the early rounds.
If you don't mark the opposing players closely, they will score. Same as it ever was.
If you have any liking for how the USWNT looks, you'll love Sweden. Holy moly. 11 tall blond physically fit women who also play as a unit and seem likable.
They have lied and mislead the public about their fight for “equal” pay. This makes them unlikable in my view, similar to you not liking a player because he’s holding out. They’ve taken it further by claiming gender discrimination where there isn’t any and lying.
They are extremely good at their job. They should fight for what they think it’s worth. Unfortunately for them they agreed to the wrong structure and I think wrong public discussion.
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In comment 15309395 Zeke's Alibi said:
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Alex Morgan is unbelievable.
That said, I hope you're not looking forward to Megan Rapinoe modeling for Victoria's Secret
They have lied and mislead the public about their fight for “equal” pay. This makes them unlikable in my view, similar to you not liking a player because he’s holding out. They’ve taken it further by claiming gender discrimination where there isn’t any and lying.
They are extremely good at their job. They should fight for what they think it’s worth. Unfortunately for them they agreed to the wrong structure and I think wrong public discussion.