His best quality is if there is a big play out there, and he sees it, he nails the throw.
There were a handful of games where he missed pivotal plays developing downfield and he did have protection. He needs to increase his batting average in those scenarios.
his rookie year. I personally remember gushing about his accuracy on one thread about one of his touchdown throws.
There is no worse strawman on BBI than this idea that people here don't relish watching our players excel. I made a weekly Saquon Barkley is touched by the hand of god thread for a few weeks in his rookie year despite already being critical of DG and questioning the pick from a positional value standpoint.
If anything those of us that are viewed as more pessimistic are probably itching for great play from this team more than anyone. We don't spend 8 months or so in a blissful state of thinking the team is just around the corner from turning it around.
If Daniel Jones is a pro bowl level QB sign me up to be president of his fan club.
It is honestly crazy the lengths people will go to to act like very real fans of this team somehow enjoy in any way the extent of the ineptitude of this team.
I don't see that anyone here enjoys ineptitude. I was not happy with the Shurmur hire, but as a fan of the team I hoped he would do well. It was hard (actually impossible) to not become apathetic as a fan.
And then they hired Judge, and based on what I've seen, my excitement is back. I thought Jones showed really well his first year minus the fumbling problem, so I was excited for him to be better and grow into a good QB for us. It sucked having the staff change on him in year two, a new OL and no preseason (and then losing Barkley), but I felt like the offense started to come around and Jones started to play well and feel more comfortable in the offense about halfway through the season. That hamstring injury was a huge setback, and I feel he came back to early, but he finished the season strong.
All that said, I am as excited AS HELL to see what this offense (and defense) can do this season. I feel good about the direction 1000%.
I can envision a multiplying effect if Shepard and Slayton can return to form, and Rudolph can continue his end zone magic.
It will be a LOT harder to scheme against that offense compared to the last two years. Hopefully early success will give DJ confidence so he doesn't have to "think" as much.
I'm more optimistic about this season than I've been in a while
I'm very concerned about the OL but I could absolutely see our offense doing well this season.
I happened to have "Get Up" on the other morning and the topic was Jones and the Giants. Mike Tannebaum, Jets GM, said, and I quote: "There are no more excuses for Daniel Jones. He now has weapons and an excellent offensive line..."
Needless to say, I thought I was having a stroke and asked my wife to ask me questions to make sure I was still in reality... ;)
that will benefit Jones is having the team win first down. Win meaning get into 2nd and 4-6 consistently. The last decade has been about 2nd and 9/10 yards.
He throws a nice long ball. Where he struggles is later downs with long distance. Very indecisive.
conveniently omitted all his turnovers and piss poor pocket presence.
It also omitted Shane Lemieux whiffing off the snap on 3 pass plays per game. Also the piss poor pass blocking of cam Fleming and not to mention DJs ankle injury which was severe
The offense was putrid last year. Any attempt to spin it otherwise is either a flat out lie, or a lack of football knowledge. You don't qualify for either, gidie. But I know you want to find something to believe in.
I think it's important to realize that even DJ's critics are rooting hard for him to succeed this year. We just don't see a path to pretend that he succeeded last year.
then there was some success -- but overall a losing season -- there was improvement on the team all season long -- including in Jones
This is going to be a good team and he's going to be a good QB for us
Exactly what measure of success can you conceive that could possibly describe last season as anything resembling a highlight?
Yes, DJ had some good plays last year. He does have talent - I absolutely acknowledge that. I know there are some steadfast critics here that might not be willing to give in on that, but I'm not one of them. I just happen to think that he's stuck somewhere in between confidence in being a playmaker and direction to play within himself to limit turnovers, and he's losing on both ends.
But when the DJ highlights include a pass to the middle of the field with time expiring in a half, and that drive results in ZERO points, I question the highlights themselves. Then it's not any better than the criticism that you're hoping to push back against. Isn't that fair? Isn't the whole argument about whether DJ is going to deliver wins? What good was that pass that resulted in no points because it went to the middle of the field with 12 seconds left in the half? Can we question his situational awareness in that moment? And if not, can we at least note that it wasn't exactly a highlight?
It was a crappy year for the offense, DJ included. I wish we'd stop trying to lipstick the pig on this and just look forward to next season.
10 minutes of highlights is more than a collection anyone could put together of Dwayne Haskins, Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold combined highlights for the past 2 seasons.
Note I selectively left out Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson:) but the point remains...I don’t see the need to shit on Jones highlight reel. We all know he needs to be better. But he’s already a lot better than several other guys people cried about not getting
Very reasonable to believe, if the playmakers improve separation, Garrett system evolves, OL gels....that Daniel is capable of stepping up and leading Giants
Most players have highlight films and they are just that. They're fun
conveniently omitted all his turnovers and piss poor pocket presence.
Did you expect a highlight reel to show the bad plays? 2020: New coach, new OC, new system, worldwide pandemic, no preseason games.... again, what did you expect from DJ?
All that video shows is that he had some nice plays last year. It doesn’t prove that he had a good year overall. The opinions of people on this board regarding his overall play have been stated ad nauseam. Enough with the DJ bashing already. If you want that, make another thread for it. This one is for people who want to comment on the plays shown in the video.
All that video shows is that he had some nice plays last year. It doesn’t prove that he had a good year overall. The opinions of people on this board regarding his overall play have been stated ad nauseam. Enough with the DJ bashing already. If you want that, make another thread for it. This one is for people who want to comment on the plays shown in the video.
I think that's fair. And I think even in that highlights package, there's some criticism to be had (as I noted above).
The notion that there's actually offensive highlights from last season is silly in and of itself, which is proven by the fact that there are some objectively mediocre plays that got lumped in as highlights.
That highlight package really gets me excited for what Slayton can do with some real talent surrounding him.
I recall the story being Slayton hurt his ankle or foot on that nice TD catch against the Skins, and his production dropped off after that. You can see it in the highlight, he seems to land weird on it in the end zone
Either way I agree...as our only WR threat last year, eh, but with Golladay on the other side he will hopefully get more and better looks
Notable in those highlights to me was how close the OL
is to Jones when he releases the ball. Mostly because of the pressure they allow and getting so easily pushed back into his face.
It is actually a bit unnerving on some throws while being impressive to DJ for keeping his cool. Actually don’t know how his arm or ball is not hit more often while throwing.
Did you expect a highlight reel to show the bad plays? 2020: New coach, new OC, new system, worldwide pandemic, no preseason games.... again, what did you expect from DJ?
Obviously I'm in the minority on this, but I expected the 6th pick in the draft to rise above some of the mentioned hurdles and be much better than he's been to date.
My expectations have been that Jones should be a difference maker, not just another piece in the offense with no more responsibilities than any of the other ten players who join him in the huddle.
Slayton was a very good #3, he is not a good #1. Golliday changes that dynamic in a big way. Toney is now the #2 option and Shep and Slayton are #3 & #4. That is a good corp of receivers. Rudolph added as the TE upgrades that option and Barkley if healthy upgrades that option.
Ive said this a ton of times, the only question mark for me is the OL. I have faith that Jones is an NFL quality starter meaning that is is in the top half of the league at the QB position. The talent around him has hampered his development in my opinion. If the OL holds up well and he is still not getting it done then we have our answer. If the OL is not getting it done and he is always running for his life no QB can be successful.
I have no doubt he will -- don't you find it interesting how it's mostly crickets when there's some really good tape of Jones on tap
If player quality was just judged on highlight reels, everyone would be a number one draft pick and be All-Pro every year. Chirp
NFL Films used to produce 30 or 60 minute shows recapping every team's season. Literally every single team makes highlight worthy plays, even teams that finish 0-16.
That's why the entire body of work is what we need to be focused on. It's great that Daniel Jones had some highlights in 2020 - his overall performance was quite poor.
I don't think it would go over very well if someone posted a video compilation of Jones' worst plays.
I personally jumped on this thread at the offensive suggestion that I wouldn't love to celebrate great play by Jones.
I think that's the main difference here. When the Giants are bad some people just want to be like "hey they are bad, quit twisting it to seem like they aren't or that there is more competence involved in this crapfest than there is"
It's nothing short of an annoying level of projection to act like this would happen in the reverse.
If the Giants were coming off a nice stretch of wins, with a young QB putting up big stats and low turnovers NO ONE would be coming here posting a video of his worst plays. Or poking at people being like SEE all you want to talk about is the good stuff! He had 6 fumbles and 8 interceptions on the seasons WATCH THEM AND TALK ABOUT HIS FLAWS.
Sorry that we don't want to have a love fest about a #6 pick who has shown to be one of the more careless QBs with the ball that I have ever seen. Coming off a 6-10 season where we ranked 31st in the league in points scored. Jesus.
Outside of an insignificant comment from Mt. Dizzle I don't see others
"bashing" Jones in this thread. There are plenty of advocates, others that hope he plays better, and also a bunch of honest critics providing their opinions. All of which should be expected on a thread about the starting QB of the NY Giants, even one with a video of highlights.
The posts that actually have little to no value are the ones that come on a thread and bitch and moan about someone actually starting another DJ thread or that think only unfounded criticism dominates these threads, or use it as an opportunity to call others "pricks".
For all of the DJ haters to run away with their tails between their legs by week 4....
This is vapid. No ones hates DJ.
Some of us hate the way he's played thus far; but still want him to step up and deliver. Getting caught in the QB hell vortex is the last thing this organization needs...
For all of the DJ haters to run away with their tails between their legs by week 4....
This is vapid. No ones hates DJ.
Some of us hate the way he's played thus far; but still want him to step up and deliver. Getting caught in the QB hell vortex is the last thing this organization needs...
It's exactly what you did after bashing Eli after he started winning super bowls.
For all of the DJ haters to run away with their tails between their legs by week 4....
The Darnold and Rosen guys suddenly tossed their masks away and equipped their Josh Allen ones, still in mint condition.
No one ever talks about the "this is a great place to trade down because we need to rebuild the foundation and we'll probably get a lot for this pick with the hype surrounding this QB class" guys.
Somehow everyone who opposed the SB pick is lumped in as having wanted Darnold or Rosen. I wonder why that is?
For all of the DJ haters to run away with their tails between their legs by week 4....
There are no DJ haters. That's a fucking ridiculous characterization to make.
There are people who choose not to view a highlights package of a QB who threw 11 TD passes as some sort of manna from heaven. There's a distinction there.
I think it's fair to say that every single fan here is rooting for DJ to play extremely well in 2021 and beyond. Some just refuse to pretend that last season was a precursor to that.
The Giants' offense was putrid last year - anyone claiming otherwise knows shit about football. DJ had a mediocre year as the centerpiece of that offense - anyone denying that knows shit about football.
There were a lot of factors that went into that - OL issues, SB's injury, GT being one of DG's worst signings, EE somehow turning into a volleyball player that magically tipped every dropped pass into the hands of a defender, etc. It's not all on DJ. But he definitely didn't have a very good year in 2020.
And yet, we're subjected to a highlights package of an offense that we know was terrible? That's either bait for an argument, or wishful thinking of the highest order.
The offense should be better in 2021 because they should have better players and the incumbents should improve. We don't need to watch a highlights package of one of the worst offenses in football to pretend that last season's mediocrity didn't actually happen.
The Giants' offense was putrid last year - anyone claiming otherwise knows shit about football. DJ had a mediocre year as the centerpiece of that offense - anyone denying that knows shit about football.
There were a lot of factors that went into that - OL issues, SB's injury, GT being one of DG's worst signings, EE somehow turning into a volleyball player that magically tipped every dropped pass into the hands of a defender, etc. It's not all on DJ. But he definitely didn't have a very good year in 2020.
And yet, we're subjected to a highlights package of an offense that we know was terrible? That's either bait for an argument, or wishful thinking of the highest order.
The offense should be better in 2021 because they should have better players and the incumbents should improve. We don't need to watch a highlights package of one of the worst offenses in football to pretend that last season's mediocrity didn't actually happen.
Dunk,
I agree with some of your points, but the overall assessment that the Offense was putrid last year, does not comport with my viewpoint. I saw meaningful improvements in the offense last year despite the factors that you enumerate above. Over the course of the season Daniel Jones reduced the number of turnovers, and tightened his performance and had some real flashes.
Andrew Thomas also improved over the course of the season. A lessor player would have folded after the first five games, which were absolutely brutal for him. He appeared to hunker down, he took it all, and he played gritty and gradually improving football. The same goes for Nick Gates. Lemeiux and Peart showed some flashes; this was not like watching Chad Wheeler or Eric Flowers get pushed around, these kids were spunky and flashed.
And this team hung in games seemingly needing just a slight edge to win. In my opinion they scored those slight edges this off season -- and this is why I am so damned optimistic. The combo of watching them hang in there all season and show some fight, with the meaningful additions they made has me firmly convinced in a good season coming up.
The Giants' offense was putrid last year - anyone claiming otherwise knows shit about football. DJ had a mediocre year as the centerpiece of that offense - anyone denying that knows shit about football.
There were a lot of factors that went into that - OL issues, SB's injury, GT being one of DG's worst signings, EE somehow turning into a volleyball player that magically tipped every dropped pass into the hands of a defender, etc. It's not all on DJ. But he definitely didn't have a very good year in 2020.
And yet, we're subjected to a highlights package of an offense that we know was terrible? That's either bait for an argument, or wishful thinking of the highest order.
The offense should be better in 2021 because they should have better players and the incumbents should improve. We don't need to watch a highlights package of one of the worst offenses in football to pretend that last season's mediocrity didn't actually happen.
Dunk,
I agree with some of your points, but the overall assessment that the Offense was putrid last year, does not comport with my viewpoint. I saw meaningful improvements in the offense last year despite the factors that you enumerate above. Over the course of the season Daniel Jones reduced the number of turnovers, and tightened his performance and had some real flashes.
Andrew Thomas also improved over the course of the season. A lessor player would have folded after the first five games, which were absolutely brutal for him. He appeared to hunker down, he took it all, and he played gritty and gradually improving football. The same goes for Nick Gates. Lemeiux and Peart showed some flashes; this was not like watching Chad Wheeler or Eric Flowers get pushed around, these kids were spunky and flashed.
And this team hung in games seemingly needing just a slight edge to win. In my opinion they scored those slight edges this off season -- and this is why I am so damned optimistic. The combo of watching them hang in there all season and show some fight, with the meaningful additions they made has me firmly convinced in a good season coming up.
Gidie,
The next worst NFC team in terms of points scored totaled 54 points more than them. That's more than a field goal per game.
Adding in the AFC, only the Jets scored less than the Giants in the entire NFL (they were the only two teams who failed to even reach 300 points). How is that NOT putrid?
What you're describing is a reason to be optimistic for 2021, but I don't see how it absolves the team of a really bad year offensively in 2020.
that we differ on -- putrid to me means they stink and there is no reason to be optimistic about anything. Just bury it in the backyard.
In my view they were not putrid because they exhibited traits and performances that gave me hope and actually thrilled me with the way they were playing. There were kernels that I am hoping to see built on -- I don't want that team from last year buried. I want to see it take the next steps. That does not comport with my view of putrid.
that we differ on -- putrid to me means they stink and there is no reason to be optimistic about anything. Just bury it in the backyard.
In my view they were not putrid because they exhibited traits and performances that gave me hope and actually thrilled me with the way they were playing. There were kernels that I am hoping to see built on -- I don't want that team from last year buried. I want to see it take the next steps. That does not comport with my view of putrid.
The 2020 offense DID stink. And any optimism you have is about 2021. We absolutely SHOULD bury the 2020 offense in the backyard. Why would anyone want to see it again?
Excitement for 2021? I'm all for it. Using that as excuse to pretend that the 2020 offense wasn't the WORST in the NFC? Sorry, that's a bridge too far.
The 2019 team was better scoring 61 more points than they did in 2020. Jones had 24 TDs in 12 games. Basically with the same guys and/or other JAGs. We all know about the fumbling in 2019 but he was better in that regard in 2020.
So, what's your answer to why the offense was so putrid last year? Is it because Jones got worse? It's all on him that they scored 61 points less? You already stated some the reasons why above in your other post. The difference is some of us choose to be more bullish on what Jones can accomplish, especially based on what we see from his progression in a new offensive scheme before he hurt his hamstring (and after it was actually healed).
Also the progression of the team, and Judge seeming to actually have a good handle on things.
I'm worried about the OL progressing enough, and I'm worried about Garret. But right now I am Bullish on Jones, as are others. It's certainly not any more wrong/right than people that are pessimistic about him.
The 2019 team was better scoring 61 more points than they did in 2020. Jones had 24 TDs in 12 games. Basically with the same guys and/or other JAGs. We all know about the fumbling in 2019 but he was better in that regard in 2020.
So, what's your answer to why the offense was so putrid last year? Is it because Jones got worse? It's all on him that they scored 61 points less? You already stated some the reasons why above in your other post. The difference is some of us choose to be more bullish on what Jones can accomplish, especially based on what we see from his progression in a new offensive scheme before he hurt his hamstring (and after it was actually healed).
Also the progression of the team, and Judge seeming to actually have a good handle on things.
I'm worried about the OL progressing enough, and I'm worried about Garret. But right now I am Bullish on Jones, as are others. It's certainly not any more wrong/right than people that are pessimistic about him.
I think some was Jones being more risk-averse, which led to losing some of his playmaking in the process (imagine Favre or Eli actively trying to be risk-averse - both would have lost some of what them special, so this isn't necessarily a knock against DG, other than he was a turnover machine in 2019).
I think Garrett isn't as good an OC/playcaller/QB savant as Shurmur was (despite Shurmur's overall failing as a HC).
I think losing SB for the year took an already risk-averse OC and a trying-to-be-risk-averse QB and made them even more conservative.
I think Tate went from being passable in 2019 to awful in 2020.
I think Slayton caught teams by surprise in his rookie year and teams had some tape on him in 2020.
I don't know enough to know which of these factors were major contributing reasons, which were minor, which might not have mattered at all, and which factors I can't even identify.
But I do know that the 2020 offense was dreadful, and anyone trying to use justifiable optimism about 2021 as an excuse to prop up the garbage that the NYG offense was in 2020 is being intellectually dishonest.
1. Green Bay 31.8 Excellent
9. Indianapolis 28.2 Good
17. Dallas 24.7 Average
25. Washington 20.9 Bad
31. NY Giants 17.5 Putrid
32. NY Jets 15.2 Most Putrid
... except the last statement. We have upgraded the talent. We are now in year 2 of the same offense. We actually will have a training camp this year.
My 2 greatest fears are that the OL doesn't progress (but I think they absolutely will - I just hope it's enough), and that Garrett just doesn't have a good offensive system in place. I think Judge is hedging his bets with Kitchens though. And hopefully Sale is a great OL coach.
I don't think any of us are that far apart in our thinking, some people are just more optimistic that a bunch of small upticks at multiple levels pays huge dividends. We'll see. I certainly don't want to watch this team miss the playoffs again. That would certainly suck. I think we surprise people this year though, I really do.
RE: So I agree with everything you posted there...
... except the last statement. We have upgraded the talent. We are now in year 2 of the same offense. We actually will have a training camp this year.
My 2 greatest fears are that the OL doesn't progress (but I think they absolutely will - I just hope it's enough), and that Garrett just doesn't have a good offensive system in place. I think Judge is hedging his bets with Kitchens though. And hopefully Sale is a great OL coach.
I don't think any of us are that far apart in our thinking, some people are just more optimistic that a bunch of small upticks at multiple levels pays huge dividends. We'll see. I certainly don't want to watch this team miss the playoffs again. That would certainly suck. I think we surprise people this year though, I really do.
I don't understand how you (or Gidie, or anyone else) can disagree with the last statement.
The 2020 offense is complete. That season is over. It was what it was, and what it was was terrible, strictly from an offensive standpoint.
Any optimism you're feeling is about 2021. That's a different season. And I share your optimism... about 2021's offense.
But it's not retroactive. The 2020 offense was a fucking turd. Nothing that happens in 2021 will change that.
... Yes I agree for sure. I guess I just feel like Daniel Jones was less of an overall issue regarding 2020 than some other BBI'ers.
I don't really understand how else it even could be stated.
I have said all along that the 2020 offense sucked, and Gidie's defense for why 2020's offense didn't suck was that he was excited about 2021.
That's not the way it works if you're just looking at each season on its own merits. 2020 did suck. Even if it ultimately becomes a stepping stone to offensive success in 2021 and beyond, it will still have sucked. Because 2021 has a different set of players, some different coaches, offseason development, etc.
There are several reasons to be excited about 2021's offense, and those may include some positive flashes that were visible in the 2020 quagmire. But nothing that happens from here forward erases the shitstain of the 2020 offense from the record books. It happened, and it was bad. The efforts to pretend that it wasn't as bad as any reasonably intelligent person knows it was are getting silly.
... Yes I agree for sure. I guess I just feel like Daniel Jones was less of an overall issue regarding 2020 than some other BBI'ers.
I don't really understand how else it even could be stated.
I have said all along that the 2020 offense sucked, and Gidie's defense for why 2020's offense didn't suck was that he was excited about 2021.
That's not the way it works if you're just looking at each season on its own merits. 2020 did suck. Even if it ultimately becomes a stepping stone to offensive success in 2021 and beyond, it will still have sucked. Because 2021 has a different set of players, some different coaches, offseason development, etc.
There are several reasons to be excited about 2021's offense, and those may include some positive flashes that were visible in the 2020 quagmire. But nothing that happens from here forward erases the shitstain of the 2020 offense from the record books. It happened, and it was bad. The efforts to pretend that it wasn't as bad as any reasonably intelligent person knows it was are getting silly.
you are misquoting me. I said I was excited because I saw things improve over the course of the season last year that I enjoyed watching, and I cited some of them. In fact I left out the way I appreciated the pounding type N/S running game that was implemented. And then I added the things that were being built on leading me to be excited for this year.
Last year was not putrid! I enjoyed the season from beginning to end. The Giants played some real football.
I'm *extremely* disappointed with the Opening Post!
and I won't disagree that that outcome matters more than anything else to most people.
But, speaking only for me and myself, I enjoyed watching almost every game last year and thought it was one of the better seasons to watch in several years. I like the competition near as much as the result and almost every game was competitive and the result in doubt until the end.
While I am disappointed in the destination,I am very much enjoying the journey.
and I won't disagree that that outcome matters more than anything else to most people.
But, speaking only for me and myself, I enjoyed watching almost every game last year and thought it was one of the better seasons to watch in several years. I like the competition near as much as the result and almost every game was competitive and the result in doubt until the end.
While I am disappointed in the destination,I am very much enjoying the journey.
The defense and special teams made it a fun team to watch develop. The offense wasn't good at all - how can anyone suggest otherwise?
... Yes I agree for sure. I guess I just feel like Daniel Jones was less of an overall issue regarding 2020 than some other BBI'ers.
I don't really understand how else it even could be stated.
I have said all along that the 2020 offense sucked, and Gidie's defense for why 2020's offense didn't suck was that he was excited about 2021.
That's not the way it works if you're just looking at each season on its own merits. 2020 did suck. Even if it ultimately becomes a stepping stone to offensive success in 2021 and beyond, it will still have sucked. Because 2021 has a different set of players, some different coaches, offseason development, etc.
There are several reasons to be excited about 2021's offense, and those may include some positive flashes that were visible in the 2020 quagmire. But nothing that happens from here forward erases the shitstain of the 2020 offense from the record books. It happened, and it was bad. The efforts to pretend that it wasn't as bad as any reasonably intelligent person knows it was are getting silly.
you are misquoting me. I said I was excited because I saw things improve over the course of the season last year that I enjoyed watching, and I cited some of them. In fact I left out the way I appreciated the pounding type N/S running game that was implemented. And then I added the things that were being built on leading me to be excited for this year.
Last year was not putrid! I enjoyed the season from beginning to end. The Giants played some real football.
Because we're saying two different things. You're talking about the reasons why you're excited for 2021. That's a season that hasn't happened yet. And you're talking about the steps forward that the team took in 2020, but those were almost entirely on defense, and somewhat on specials.
In fact, the offense actually took a pretty significant step backward in 2020. And that season is done. It's over. Whatever excitement you have for 2021 is about 2021, even if some of the seeds were planted in 2020. IMO, this isn't like 1985 where the Giants took their lumps from the Bears in the playoffs but used that as the springboard into 1986. The Giants' offense was objectively BAD in 2020 by any metric.
Your efforts to spin 2020 retroactively because you're excited for 2021 (including players who weren't on the team in 2020) just feels a little misleading.
needs to be a lot longer. He's got the talent and chops and work ethic. Now he needs to put it all together. Jones doesn't have to be perfect. Eli wasn't perfect. He just has to win.
needs to be a lot longer. He's got the talent and chops and work ethic. Now he needs to put it all together. Jones doesn't have to be perfect. Eli wasn't perfect. He just has to win.
See, Gidie? Even DJM knows it's still going to take another year beyond this one before the offense with DJ is any good.
... Yes I agree for sure. I guess I just feel like Daniel Jones was less of an overall issue regarding 2020 than some other BBI'ers.
I don't really understand how else it even could be stated.
I have said all along that the 2020 offense sucked, and Gidie's defense for why 2020's offense didn't suck was that he was excited about 2021.
That's not the way it works if you're just looking at each season on its own merits. 2020 did suck. Even if it ultimately becomes a stepping stone to offensive success in 2021 and beyond, it will still have sucked. Because 2021 has a different set of players, some different coaches, offseason development, etc.
There are several reasons to be excited about 2021's offense, and those may include some positive flashes that were visible in the 2020 quagmire. But nothing that happens from here forward erases the shitstain of the 2020 offense from the record books. It happened, and it was bad. The efforts to pretend that it wasn't as bad as any reasonably intelligent person knows it was are getting silly.
you are misquoting me. I said I was excited because I saw things improve over the course of the season last year that I enjoyed watching, and I cited some of them. In fact I left out the way I appreciated the pounding type N/S running game that was implemented. And then I added the things that were being built on leading me to be excited for this year.
Last year was not putrid! I enjoyed the season from beginning to end. The Giants played some real football.
Because we're saying two different things. You're talking about the reasons why you're excited for 2021. That's a season that hasn't happened yet. And you're talking about the steps forward that the team took in 2020, but those were almost entirely on defense, and somewhat on specials.
In fact, the offense actually took a pretty significant step backward in 2020. And that season is done. It's over. Whatever excitement you have for 2021 is about 2021, even if some of the seeds were planted in 2020. IMO, this isn't like 1985 where the Giants took their lumps from the Bears in the playoffs but used that as the springboard into 1986. The Giants' offense was objectively BAD in 2020 by any metric.
Your efforts to spin 2020 retroactively because you're excited for 2021 (including players who weren't on the team in 2020) just feels a little misleading.
Again you are totally miscasting what I’m saying/have said. Maybe go back and actually read it
... Yes I agree for sure. I guess I just feel like Daniel Jones was less of an overall issue regarding 2020 than some other BBI'ers.
I don't really understand how else it even could be stated.
I have said all along that the 2020 offense sucked, and Gidie's defense for why 2020's offense didn't suck was that he was excited about 2021.
That's not the way it works if you're just looking at each season on its own merits. 2020 did suck. Even if it ultimately becomes a stepping stone to offensive success in 2021 and beyond, it will still have sucked. Because 2021 has a different set of players, some different coaches, offseason development, etc.
There are several reasons to be excited about 2021's offense, and those may include some positive flashes that were visible in the 2020 quagmire. But nothing that happens from here forward erases the shitstain of the 2020 offense from the record books. It happened, and it was bad. The efforts to pretend that it wasn't as bad as any reasonably intelligent person knows it was are getting silly.
you are misquoting me. I said I was excited because I saw things improve over the course of the season last year that I enjoyed watching, and I cited some of them. In fact I left out the way I appreciated the pounding type N/S running game that was implemented. And then I added the things that were being built on leading me to be excited for this year.
Last year was not putrid! I enjoyed the season from beginning to end. The Giants played some real football.
Because we're saying two different things. You're talking about the reasons why you're excited for 2021. That's a season that hasn't happened yet. And you're talking about the steps forward that the team took in 2020, but those were almost entirely on defense, and somewhat on specials.
In fact, the offense actually took a pretty significant step backward in 2020. And that season is done. It's over. Whatever excitement you have for 2021 is about 2021, even if some of the seeds were planted in 2020. IMO, this isn't like 1985 where the Giants took their lumps from the Bears in the playoffs but used that as the springboard into 1986. The Giants' offense was objectively BAD in 2020 by any metric.
Your efforts to spin 2020 retroactively because you're excited for 2021 (including players who weren't on the team in 2020) just feels a little misleading.
Again you are totally miscasting what I’m saying/have said. Maybe go back and actually read it
So far, you've declared that the definition of putrid is a subjective one.
You've talked about how you're optimistic for this season (and I have repeatedly agreed with you on that) as your way of sidestepping exactly how bad the offense was last season (and have referenced Golladay as part of that excitement - again, I agree about being excited - despite the fact that he wasn't on the team last year so he doesn't factor into how bad last year's offense was).
You've talked about how they hung in games last year, even though that was a product of the defense's improvement more than anything else and my point has definitively been about the offense.
You pointed to a pounding type running game being part of the 2020 strategy, even though the entire RB corps (if you factor for SB being out for almost the entire 2020 season) is different this season, and the current RB group seems to suggest at least the possibility that the running game might not necessarily be a pounding, between-the-tackles, strategy in 2021.
Meanwhile, all I've said - repeatedly - is that being optimistic about the upcoming season doesn't justify any sort of revisionist history specifically regarding the 2020 offense, which was the worst in the NFC and 2nd worst in the NFL. It's entirely possible to acknowledge the overall poor performance of the NYG offense in 2020 and see reasons for hope about the 2021 offense, but the latter doesn't change the former in any way, because 2020 already happened.
Which part am I miscasting?
the part where i pointed out the improvements in the
...and pointed them out. Pointed out improvements and DJ making some plays that give us hope that DJ has got what it takes.
As others have pointed out, "everybody" wants DJ to succeed...right?
So, why come in and point out that his highlight reel is pointless or a waste of time or really, anything else other than what the OP wanted it to be, a possible window into the future?
We all know where most of us stand with regards to DJ's past performances and future prognosis.
Enjoy the thread for the reasons that were clearly stated in the OP, or move on. Those of us who have hope already know what those that don't think that he's the guy...thinks about him.
Maybe what we need is 2 stickie threads. One for everything that is wrong with DJ and one for everything that is right with DJ.
One those threads, everybody stays in their lane.
Of course, we wouldn't want to remove the "discussions" of both...that can happen on all other threads.
Some of us don't want to hear the naysayers and some don't want to hear the positivity.
RE: the part where i pointed out the improvements in the
RE: the part where i pointed out the improvements in the
5:56 pm : link
In comment 15313634 gidiefor said:
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team over the course of the season, how enjoyable they were to watch - and you credit only the defense -- I credit both the defense and the offense
What if we look at it like marking periods in school, and each season is a grade level? If a student fails his first two marking periods, but then gets a D and a C in the final two marking periods, you could make the case that he's showing solid improvement, right? But he's still getting a D- for the year. By any objective measure, it's a pretty putrid grade for the full year, in spite of the improvement, right?
But that same student hires some new tutors, gets some great school supplies and a new computer, and there's tons of reasons for optimism for that student going into the next grade. But the D- happened, there's no way to change that retroactively by the steps he took to improve for his upcoming school year.
I think that's a fair analogy that encapsulates what both of us are saying, would you agree?
you see as I stated above -- I saw improvement and effort and progress --- that doesn't comport with an overall grade in my evaluation -- the players at the end of the year were not the same as the players at the beginning of the year. They were improved with the possible exception of Gallman, Slater and Engram
...and pointed them out. Pointed out improvements and DJ making some plays that give us hope that DJ has got what it takes.
As others have pointed out, "everybody" wants DJ to succeed...right?
So, why come in and point out that his highlight reel is pointless or a waste of time or really, anything else other than what the OP wanted it to be, a possible window into the future?
We all know where most of us stand with regards to DJ's past performances and future prognosis.
Enjoy the thread for the reasons that were clearly stated in the OP, or move on. Those of us who have hope already know what those that don't think that he's the guy...thinks about him.
Maybe what we need is 2 stickie threads. One for everything that is wrong with DJ and one for everything that is right with DJ.
One those threads, everybody stays in their lane.
Of course, we wouldn't want to remove the "discussions" of both...that can happen on all other threads.
Some of us don't want to hear the naysayers and some don't want to hear the positivity.
That's one of the strangest things about some "fans".
Every DJ thread becomes a chance for them to come out and tell the board how much he sucks. Any thread. A thread about him holding practice. A thread about a positive article. A thread about highlights.
It isn't rocket science what the content of the thread is, yet some bozos just can't help themselves to take potshots.
RE: Route 9 - I forgive your view point -- you grew up with the wrong
needs to be a lot longer. He's got the talent and chops and work ethic. Now he needs to put it all together. Jones doesn't have to be perfect. Eli wasn't perfect. He just has to win.
See, Gidie? Even DJM knows it's still going to take another year beyond this one before the offense with DJ is any good.
I’ve always said jones needs to improve. Any rational giants fan feels this way. Where I disagree is with the people who practically lambast the giants daily for sticking with Jones or how they scoff at any talk that jones can improve or that he wasn’t victimized or held back by a bad supporting cast. It can be both.
Who in their right mind doesn’t think jones needs to play better? The whole team needs to play better. And they just might.
Every DJ thread becomes a chance for them to come out and tell the board how much he sucks. Any thread. A thread about him holding practice. A thread about a positive article. A thread about highlights.
Even you have to admit that the thread about Jones having a steak dinner with a curious woman looking on while Jones uttered a bunch of cliches was utter garbage.
you see as I stated above -- I saw improvement and effort and progress --- that doesn't comport with an overall grade in my evaluation -- the players at the end of the year were not the same as the players at the beginning of the year. They were improved with the possible exception of Gallman, Slater and Engram
I'd be interested in seeing this grade and evaluation...
...and pointed them out. Pointed out improvements and DJ making some plays that give us hope that DJ has got what it takes.
As others have pointed out, "everybody" wants DJ to succeed...right?
So, why come in and point out that his highlight reel is pointless or a waste of time or really, anything else other than what the OP wanted it to be, a possible window into the future?
We all know where most of us stand with regards to DJ's past performances and future prognosis.
Enjoy the thread for the reasons that were clearly stated in the OP, or move on. Those of us who have hope already know what those that don't think that he's the guy...thinks about him.
Maybe what we need is 2 stickie threads. One for everything that is wrong with DJ and one for everything that is right with DJ.
One those threads, everybody stays in their lane.
Of course, we wouldn't want to remove the "discussions" of both...that can happen on all other threads.
Some of us don't want to hear the naysayers and some don't want to hear the positivity.
I want to hear it all. Including the inevitable free and open debate.
But if you feel that two separate but equal threads is the way to go on a simple fan site to keep posters civil, then start it up...
you see as I stated above -- I saw improvement and effort and progress --- that doesn't comport with an overall grade in my evaluation -- the players at the end of the year were not the same as the players at the beginning of the year. They were improved with the possible exception of Gallman, Slater and Engram
Here's the thing - there was an overall grade: 37.5.
That's the percentage of games the Giants won. And by marking period, it was:
Q1: 0.0
Q2: 25.0
Q3: 100.0
Q4: 25.0
And to the point I've been trying to make, specific to the offense, here's their grade by marking period (in ppg):
Q1: 11.75
Q2: 24.5
Q3: 21.5
Q4: 12.25
If anything, that's a pretty uneven performance overall, but that 4th marking period sure looks a lot like that first marking period.
But the defense has a slightly different story to tell:
Q1: 24
Q2: 25.75
Q3: 16.5
Q4: 23
Their Q4 also looks a lot like their Q1, but you can also see here why I say that the feel-good element of the 2020 season was the defense. When THEY stepped up, the team won. The offense was borderline nonexistent in the first and last quarters of the season, and wasn't even especially good during the team's win streak. But the defense was outstanding during that stretch.
In any case, the point is, it's absolutely possible to quantify this sort of thing. It just feels like you're intentionally reluctant to do so because it's inconsistent with the warm and fuzzies, but it doesn't have to be.
Last season is over. It's a 6-10 season no matter how you spin it. The offense was 31st in the league and last in the NFC no matter how you spin it.
Seeing positives and optimism and hope for 2021 is about 2021, not 2020, because 2020 is over and those results are already counted. And no matter how many glimmers of hope you may have seen in 2020, the truth is that Herm Edwards had a point:
"When I see these and imagine Barkley and Golloday in the mix -- and an improved defense -- it gets me all fired up about the coming season!"
***Bumping the OP for those that may have missed it*** Link - ( New Window )
This might come as a shock to you, but discussions can evolve over time.
Gidie's OP is right at the top for all to see. And I want to be clear that I absolutely respect his view here, even if I see things differently. I'm not the one trying to redefine words or act as though simply quantifiable metrics aren't quantifiable at all.
If he becomes a better game manager, he'll lead this team to the playoffs.
There were a handful of games where he missed pivotal plays developing downfield and he did have protection. He needs to increase his batting average in those scenarios.
There is no worse strawman on BBI than this idea that people here don't relish watching our players excel. I made a weekly Saquon Barkley is touched by the hand of god thread for a few weeks in his rookie year despite already being critical of DG and questioning the pick from a positional value standpoint.
If anything those of us that are viewed as more pessimistic are probably itching for great play from this team more than anyone. We don't spend 8 months or so in a blissful state of thinking the team is just around the corner from turning it around.
If Daniel Jones is a pro bowl level QB sign me up to be president of his fan club.
It is honestly crazy the lengths people will go to to act like very real fans of this team somehow enjoy in any way the extent of the ineptitude of this team.
And then they hired Judge, and based on what I've seen, my excitement is back. I thought Jones showed really well his first year minus the fumbling problem, so I was excited for him to be better and grow into a good QB for us. It sucked having the staff change on him in year two, a new OL and no preseason (and then losing Barkley), but I felt like the offense started to come around and Jones started to play well and feel more comfortable in the offense about halfway through the season. That hamstring injury was a huge setback, and I feel he came back to early, but he finished the season strong.
All that said, I am as excited AS HELL to see what this offense (and defense) can do this season. I feel good about the direction 1000%.
It will be a LOT harder to scheme against that offense compared to the last two years. Hopefully early success will give DJ confidence so he doesn't have to "think" as much.
I'm very concerned about the OL but I could absolutely see our offense doing well this season.
But DJ needs to bring it this fall.
But DJ needs to bring it this fall.
Agreed.
I'm very concerned about the OL but I could absolutely see our offense doing well this season.
I happened to have "Get Up" on the other morning and the topic was Jones and the Giants. Mike Tannebaum, Jets GM, said, and I quote: "There are no more excuses for Daniel Jones. He now has weapons and an excellent offensive line..."
Needless to say, I thought I was having a stroke and asked my wife to ask me questions to make sure I was still in reality... ;)
Garrett is on the hot seat too - this is a stacked group of skill players with every type of player you could ask for.
He throws a nice long ball. Where he struggles is later downs with long distance. Very indecisive.
It also omitted Shane Lemieux whiffing off the snap on 3 pass plays per game. Also the piss poor pass blocking of cam Fleming and not to mention DJs ankle injury which was severe
But DJ needs to bring it this fall.
Yeah. He needs to do better than 2020. Not really an unrealistic expectation.
It was a crappy year for the offense, DJ included. I wish we'd stop trying to lipstick the pig on this and just look forward to next season.
It was a crappy year for the offense, DJ included. I wish we'd stop trying to lipstick the pig on this and just look forward to next season.
you call it lipstick on a pig -- I call it reason to believe Jones can be a Franchise QB -- he had his moments, and he can make the big play.
If that's being counted as one of DJ's "highlights" from last season, we really need to be mindful of what a highlight actually is.
The offense was putrid last year. Any attempt to spin it otherwise is either a flat out lie, or a lack of football knowledge. You don't qualify for either, gidie. But I know you want to find something to believe in.
I think it's important to realize that even DJ's critics are rooting hard for him to succeed this year. We just don't see a path to pretend that he succeeded last year.
This is going to be a good team and he's going to be a good QB for us
This is going to be a good team and he's going to be a good QB for us
Exactly what measure of success can you conceive that could possibly describe last season as anything resembling a highlight?
Yes, DJ had some good plays last year. He does have talent - I absolutely acknowledge that. I know there are some steadfast critics here that might not be willing to give in on that, but I'm not one of them. I just happen to think that he's stuck somewhere in between confidence in being a playmaker and direction to play within himself to limit turnovers, and he's losing on both ends.
But when the DJ highlights include a pass to the middle of the field with time expiring in a half, and that drive results in ZERO points, I question the highlights themselves. Then it's not any better than the criticism that you're hoping to push back against. Isn't that fair? Isn't the whole argument about whether DJ is going to deliver wins? What good was that pass that resulted in no points because it went to the middle of the field with 12 seconds left in the half? Can we question his situational awareness in that moment? And if not, can we at least note that it wasn't exactly a highlight?
By almost every metric thus far, Jones is unfortunately a JaG playing QB.
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the best of what he did -- and to my eyes those are some very good plays -- and not JaG
By almost every metric thus far, Jones is unfortunately a JaG playing QB.
Rookie year
Pandemic year
Relax
You're Jag trying to post.
So Fucking annoying with the same Bullshit every single day.
It was a crappy year for the offense, DJ included. I wish we'd stop trying to lipstick the pig on this and just look forward to next season.
10 minutes of highlights is more than a collection anyone could put together of Dwayne Haskins, Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold combined highlights for the past 2 seasons.
Note I selectively left out Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson:) but the point remains...I don’t see the need to shit on Jones highlight reel. We all know he needs to be better. But he’s already a lot better than several other guys people cried about not getting
Playmakers getting open
OL blocking
And the pivotal QB play......
none were outstanding....
Very reasonable to believe, if the playmakers improve separation, Garrett system evolves, OL gels....that Daniel is capable of stepping up and leading Giants
Did you expect a highlight reel to show the bad plays? 2020: New coach, new OC, new system, worldwide pandemic, no preseason games.... again, what did you expect from DJ?
Color me shocked, especially on who the posters are being critical!
We will know who he is after this season; he should be given benefit of doubt to prove it.
I think that's fair. And I think even in that highlights package, there's some criticism to be had (as I noted above).
The notion that there's actually offensive highlights from last season is silly in and of itself, which is proven by the fact that there are some objectively mediocre plays that got lumped in as highlights.
I recall the story being Slayton hurt his ankle or foot on that nice TD catch against the Skins, and his production dropped off after that. You can see it in the highlight, he seems to land weird on it in the end zone
Either way I agree...as our only WR threat last year, eh, but with Golladay on the other side he will hopefully get more and better looks
It is actually a bit unnerving on some throws while being impressive to DJ for keeping his cool. Actually don’t know how his arm or ball is not hit more often while throwing.
That makes you a prick.
If player quality was just judged on highlight reels, everyone would be a number one draft pick and be All-Pro every year. Chirp
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I have no doubt he will -- don't you find it interesting how it's mostly crickets when there's some really good tape of Jones on tap
If player quality was just judged on highlight reels, everyone would be a number one draft pick and be All-Pro every year. Chirp
That said, the guy can make plays. I hope he can eliminate some mistakes, continue to grow, and take this team to the playoffs this year.
Did you expect a highlight reel to show the bad plays? 2020: New coach, new OC, new system, worldwide pandemic, no preseason games.... again, what did you expect from DJ?
Obviously I'm in the minority on this, but I expected the 6th pick in the draft to rise above some of the mentioned hurdles and be much better than he's been to date.
My expectations have been that Jones should be a difference maker, not just another piece in the offense with no more responsibilities than any of the other ten players who join him in the huddle.
Ive said this a ton of times, the only question mark for me is the OL. I have faith that Jones is an NFL quality starter meaning that is is in the top half of the league at the QB position. The talent around him has hampered his development in my opinion. If the OL holds up well and he is still not getting it done then we have our answer. If the OL is not getting it done and he is always running for his life no QB can be successful.
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In comment 15310648 gidiefor said:
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I have no doubt he will -- don't you find it interesting how it's mostly crickets when there's some really good tape of Jones on tap
If player quality was just judged on highlight reels, everyone would be a number one draft pick and be All-Pro every year. Chirp
That said, the guy can make plays. I hope he can eliminate some mistakes, continue to grow, and take this team to the playoffs this year.
I'll settle for a highlight reel that doesn't include throwing to the middle of the field with 10 seconds left in the half.
He went to Duke. He should be smart.
That makes you a prick.
I'm sorry, what?
Are there some sort of NYG bonafides that we can toss back and forth?
It's a fucking highlight reel of one of the worst offensive seasons in NYG history, and it includes a handful of plays that aren't even highlights.
You think this thread is an identifier, and I agree. But not in the way that you think it is.
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I have no doubt he will -- don't you find it interesting how it's mostly crickets when there's some really good tape of Jones on tap
If player quality was just judged on highlight reels, everyone would be a number one draft pick and be All-Pro every year. Chirp
NFL Films used to produce 30 or 60 minute shows recapping every team's season. Literally every single team makes highlight worthy plays, even teams that finish 0-16.
That's why the entire body of work is what we need to be focused on. It's great that Daniel Jones had some highlights in 2020 - his overall performance was quite poor.
I don't think it would go over very well if someone posted a video compilation of Jones' worst plays.
Please PLEASE kick ass this NYG.
Thx in advance.
I personally jumped on this thread at the offensive suggestion that I wouldn't love to celebrate great play by Jones.
I think that's the main difference here. When the Giants are bad some people just want to be like "hey they are bad, quit twisting it to seem like they aren't or that there is more competence involved in this crapfest than there is"
It's nothing short of an annoying level of projection to act like this would happen in the reverse.
If the Giants were coming off a nice stretch of wins, with a young QB putting up big stats and low turnovers NO ONE would be coming here posting a video of his worst plays. Or poking at people being like SEE all you want to talk about is the good stuff! He had 6 fumbles and 8 interceptions on the seasons WATCH THEM AND TALK ABOUT HIS FLAWS.
Sorry that we don't want to have a love fest about a #6 pick who has shown to be one of the more careless QBs with the ball that I have ever seen. Coming off a 6-10 season where we ranked 31st in the league in points scored. Jesus.
The posts that actually have little to no value are the ones that come on a thread and bitch and moan about someone actually starting another DJ thread or that think only unfounded criticism dominates these threads, or use it as an opportunity to call others "pricks".
This is vapid. No ones hates DJ.
Some of us hate the way he's played thus far; but still want him to step up and deliver. Getting caught in the QB hell vortex is the last thing this organization needs...
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For all of the DJ haters to run away with their tails between their legs by week 4....
This is vapid. No ones hates DJ.
Some of us hate the way he's played thus far; but still want him to step up and deliver. Getting caught in the QB hell vortex is the last thing this organization needs...
It's exactly what you did after bashing Eli after he started winning super bowls.
The Darnold and Rosen guys suddenly tossed their masks away and equipped their Josh Allen ones, still in mint condition.
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For all of the DJ haters to run away with their tails between their legs by week 4....
The Darnold and Rosen guys suddenly tossed their masks away and equipped their Josh Allen ones, still in mint condition.
No one ever talks about the "this is a great place to trade down because we need to rebuild the foundation and we'll probably get a lot for this pick with the hype surrounding this QB class" guys.
Somehow everyone who opposed the SB pick is lumped in as having wanted Darnold or Rosen. I wonder why that is?
There are no DJ haters. That's a fucking ridiculous characterization to make.
There are people who choose not to view a highlights package of a QB who threw 11 TD passes as some sort of manna from heaven. There's a distinction there.
I think it's fair to say that every single fan here is rooting for DJ to play extremely well in 2021 and beyond. Some just refuse to pretend that last season was a precursor to that.
The Giants' offense was putrid last year - anyone claiming otherwise knows shit about football. DJ had a mediocre year as the centerpiece of that offense - anyone denying that knows shit about football.
There were a lot of factors that went into that - OL issues, SB's injury, GT being one of DG's worst signings, EE somehow turning into a volleyball player that magically tipped every dropped pass into the hands of a defender, etc. It's not all on DJ. But he definitely didn't have a very good year in 2020.
And yet, we're subjected to a highlights package of an offense that we know was terrible? That's either bait for an argument, or wishful thinking of the highest order.
The offense should be better in 2021 because they should have better players and the incumbents should improve. We don't need to watch a highlights package of one of the worst offenses in football to pretend that last season's mediocrity didn't actually happen.
The Giants' offense was putrid last year - anyone claiming otherwise knows shit about football. DJ had a mediocre year as the centerpiece of that offense - anyone denying that knows shit about football.
There were a lot of factors that went into that - OL issues, SB's injury, GT being one of DG's worst signings, EE somehow turning into a volleyball player that magically tipped every dropped pass into the hands of a defender, etc. It's not all on DJ. But he definitely didn't have a very good year in 2020.
And yet, we're subjected to a highlights package of an offense that we know was terrible? That's either bait for an argument, or wishful thinking of the highest order.
The offense should be better in 2021 because they should have better players and the incumbents should improve. We don't need to watch a highlights package of one of the worst offenses in football to pretend that last season's mediocrity didn't actually happen.
Dunk,
I agree with some of your points, but the overall assessment that the Offense was putrid last year, does not comport with my viewpoint. I saw meaningful improvements in the offense last year despite the factors that you enumerate above. Over the course of the season Daniel Jones reduced the number of turnovers, and tightened his performance and had some real flashes.
Andrew Thomas also improved over the course of the season. A lessor player would have folded after the first five games, which were absolutely brutal for him. He appeared to hunker down, he took it all, and he played gritty and gradually improving football. The same goes for Nick Gates. Lemeiux and Peart showed some flashes; this was not like watching Chad Wheeler or Eric Flowers get pushed around, these kids were spunky and flashed.
And this team hung in games seemingly needing just a slight edge to win. In my opinion they scored those slight edges this off season -- and this is why I am so damned optimistic. The combo of watching them hang in there all season and show some fight, with the meaningful additions they made has me firmly convinced in a good season coming up.
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The Giants' offense was putrid last year - anyone claiming otherwise knows shit about football. DJ had a mediocre year as the centerpiece of that offense - anyone denying that knows shit about football.
There were a lot of factors that went into that - OL issues, SB's injury, GT being one of DG's worst signings, EE somehow turning into a volleyball player that magically tipped every dropped pass into the hands of a defender, etc. It's not all on DJ. But he definitely didn't have a very good year in 2020.
And yet, we're subjected to a highlights package of an offense that we know was terrible? That's either bait for an argument, or wishful thinking of the highest order.
The offense should be better in 2021 because they should have better players and the incumbents should improve. We don't need to watch a highlights package of one of the worst offenses in football to pretend that last season's mediocrity didn't actually happen.
Dunk,
I agree with some of your points, but the overall assessment that the Offense was putrid last year, does not comport with my viewpoint. I saw meaningful improvements in the offense last year despite the factors that you enumerate above. Over the course of the season Daniel Jones reduced the number of turnovers, and tightened his performance and had some real flashes.
Andrew Thomas also improved over the course of the season. A lessor player would have folded after the first five games, which were absolutely brutal for him. He appeared to hunker down, he took it all, and he played gritty and gradually improving football. The same goes for Nick Gates. Lemeiux and Peart showed some flashes; this was not like watching Chad Wheeler or Eric Flowers get pushed around, these kids were spunky and flashed.
And this team hung in games seemingly needing just a slight edge to win. In my opinion they scored those slight edges this off season -- and this is why I am so damned optimistic. The combo of watching them hang in there all season and show some fight, with the meaningful additions they made has me firmly convinced in a good season coming up.
Gidie,
The next worst NFC team in terms of points scored totaled 54 points more than them. That's more than a field goal per game.
Adding in the AFC, only the Jets scored less than the Giants in the entire NFL (they were the only two teams who failed to even reach 300 points). How is that NOT putrid?
What you're describing is a reason to be optimistic for 2021, but I don't see how it absolves the team of a really bad year offensively in 2020.
In my view they were not putrid because they exhibited traits and performances that gave me hope and actually thrilled me with the way they were playing. There were kernels that I am hoping to see built on -- I don't want that team from last year buried. I want to see it take the next steps. That does not comport with my view of putrid.
In my view they were not putrid because they exhibited traits and performances that gave me hope and actually thrilled me with the way they were playing. There were kernels that I am hoping to see built on -- I don't want that team from last year buried. I want to see it take the next steps. That does not comport with my view of putrid.
The 2020 offense DID stink. And any optimism you have is about 2021. We absolutely SHOULD bury the 2020 offense in the backyard. Why would anyone want to see it again?
Excitement for 2021? I'm all for it. Using that as excuse to pretend that the 2020 offense wasn't the WORST in the NFC? Sorry, that's a bridge too far.
So, what's your answer to why the offense was so putrid last year? Is it because Jones got worse? It's all on him that they scored 61 points less? You already stated some the reasons why above in your other post. The difference is some of us choose to be more bullish on what Jones can accomplish, especially based on what we see from his progression in a new offensive scheme before he hurt his hamstring (and after it was actually healed).
Also the progression of the team, and Judge seeming to actually have a good handle on things.
I'm worried about the OL progressing enough, and I'm worried about Garret. But right now I am Bullish on Jones, as are others. It's certainly not any more wrong/right than people that are pessimistic about him.
So, what's your answer to why the offense was so putrid last year? Is it because Jones got worse? It's all on him that they scored 61 points less? You already stated some the reasons why above in your other post. The difference is some of us choose to be more bullish on what Jones can accomplish, especially based on what we see from his progression in a new offensive scheme before he hurt his hamstring (and after it was actually healed).
Also the progression of the team, and Judge seeming to actually have a good handle on things.
I'm worried about the OL progressing enough, and I'm worried about Garret. But right now I am Bullish on Jones, as are others. It's certainly not any more wrong/right than people that are pessimistic about him.
I think some was Jones being more risk-averse, which led to losing some of his playmaking in the process (imagine Favre or Eli actively trying to be risk-averse - both would have lost some of what them special, so this isn't necessarily a knock against DG, other than he was a turnover machine in 2019).
I think Garrett isn't as good an OC/playcaller/QB savant as Shurmur was (despite Shurmur's overall failing as a HC).
I think losing SB for the year took an already risk-averse OC and a trying-to-be-risk-averse QB and made them even more conservative.
I think Tate went from being passable in 2019 to awful in 2020.
I think Slayton caught teams by surprise in his rookie year and teams had some tape on him in 2020.
I don't know enough to know which of these factors were major contributing reasons, which were minor, which might not have mattered at all, and which factors I can't even identify.
But I do know that the 2020 offense was dreadful, and anyone trying to use justifiable optimism about 2021 as an excuse to prop up the garbage that the NYG offense was in 2020 is being intellectually dishonest.
1. Green Bay 31.8 Excellent
9. Indianapolis 28.2 Good
17. Dallas 24.7 Average
25. Washington 20.9 Bad
31. NY Giants 17.5 Putrid
32. NY Jets 15.2 Most Putrid
My 2 greatest fears are that the OL doesn't progress (but I think they absolutely will - I just hope it's enough), and that Garrett just doesn't have a good offensive system in place. I think Judge is hedging his bets with Kitchens though. And hopefully Sale is a great OL coach.
I don't think any of us are that far apart in our thinking, some people are just more optimistic that a bunch of small upticks at multiple levels pays huge dividends. We'll see. I certainly don't want to watch this team miss the playoffs again. That would certainly suck. I think we surprise people this year though, I really do.
My 2 greatest fears are that the OL doesn't progress (but I think they absolutely will - I just hope it's enough), and that Garrett just doesn't have a good offensive system in place. I think Judge is hedging his bets with Kitchens though. And hopefully Sale is a great OL coach.
I don't think any of us are that far apart in our thinking, some people are just more optimistic that a bunch of small upticks at multiple levels pays huge dividends. We'll see. I certainly don't want to watch this team miss the playoffs again. That would certainly suck. I think we surprise people this year though, I really do.
I don't understand how you (or Gidie, or anyone else) can disagree with the last statement.
The 2020 offense is complete. That season is over. It was what it was, and what it was was terrible, strictly from an offensive standpoint.
Any optimism you're feeling is about 2021. That's a different season. And I share your optimism... about 2021's offense.
But it's not retroactive. The 2020 offense was a fucking turd. Nothing that happens in 2021 will change that.
I don't really understand how else it even could be stated.
I have said all along that the 2020 offense sucked, and Gidie's defense for why 2020's offense didn't suck was that he was excited about 2021.
That's not the way it works if you're just looking at each season on its own merits. 2020 did suck. Even if it ultimately becomes a stepping stone to offensive success in 2021 and beyond, it will still have sucked. Because 2021 has a different set of players, some different coaches, offseason development, etc.
There are several reasons to be excited about 2021's offense, and those may include some positive flashes that were visible in the 2020 quagmire. But nothing that happens from here forward erases the shitstain of the 2020 offense from the record books. It happened, and it was bad. The efforts to pretend that it wasn't as bad as any reasonably intelligent person knows it was are getting silly.
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... Yes I agree for sure. I guess I just feel like Daniel Jones was less of an overall issue regarding 2020 than some other BBI'ers.
I don't really understand how else it even could be stated.
I have said all along that the 2020 offense sucked, and Gidie's defense for why 2020's offense didn't suck was that he was excited about 2021.
That's not the way it works if you're just looking at each season on its own merits. 2020 did suck. Even if it ultimately becomes a stepping stone to offensive success in 2021 and beyond, it will still have sucked. Because 2021 has a different set of players, some different coaches, offseason development, etc.
There are several reasons to be excited about 2021's offense, and those may include some positive flashes that were visible in the 2020 quagmire. But nothing that happens from here forward erases the shitstain of the 2020 offense from the record books. It happened, and it was bad. The efforts to pretend that it wasn't as bad as any reasonably intelligent person knows it was are getting silly.
you are misquoting me. I said I was excited because I saw things improve over the course of the season last year that I enjoyed watching, and I cited some of them. In fact I left out the way I appreciated the pounding type N/S running game that was implemented. And then I added the things that were being built on leading me to be excited for this year.
Last year was not putrid! I enjoyed the season from beginning to end. The Giants played some real football.
How on earth can you say that and not this:
But, speaking only for me and myself, I enjoyed watching almost every game last year and thought it was one of the better seasons to watch in several years. I like the competition near as much as the result and almost every game was competitive and the result in doubt until the end.
While I am disappointed in the destination,I am very much enjoying the journey.
But, speaking only for me and myself, I enjoyed watching almost every game last year and thought it was one of the better seasons to watch in several years. I like the competition near as much as the result and almost every game was competitive and the result in doubt until the end.
While I am disappointed in the destination,I am very much enjoying the journey.
The defense and special teams made it a fun team to watch develop. The offense wasn't good at all - how can anyone suggest otherwise?
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In comment 15313276 Johnny5 said:
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... Yes I agree for sure. I guess I just feel like Daniel Jones was less of an overall issue regarding 2020 than some other BBI'ers.
I don't really understand how else it even could be stated.
I have said all along that the 2020 offense sucked, and Gidie's defense for why 2020's offense didn't suck was that he was excited about 2021.
That's not the way it works if you're just looking at each season on its own merits. 2020 did suck. Even if it ultimately becomes a stepping stone to offensive success in 2021 and beyond, it will still have sucked. Because 2021 has a different set of players, some different coaches, offseason development, etc.
There are several reasons to be excited about 2021's offense, and those may include some positive flashes that were visible in the 2020 quagmire. But nothing that happens from here forward erases the shitstain of the 2020 offense from the record books. It happened, and it was bad. The efforts to pretend that it wasn't as bad as any reasonably intelligent person knows it was are getting silly.
you are misquoting me. I said I was excited because I saw things improve over the course of the season last year that I enjoyed watching, and I cited some of them. In fact I left out the way I appreciated the pounding type N/S running game that was implemented. And then I added the things that were being built on leading me to be excited for this year.
Last year was not putrid! I enjoyed the season from beginning to end. The Giants played some real football.
Because we're saying two different things. You're talking about the reasons why you're excited for 2021. That's a season that hasn't happened yet. And you're talking about the steps forward that the team took in 2020, but those were almost entirely on defense, and somewhat on specials.
In fact, the offense actually took a pretty significant step backward in 2020. And that season is done. It's over. Whatever excitement you have for 2021 is about 2021, even if some of the seeds were planted in 2020. IMO, this isn't like 1985 where the Giants took their lumps from the Bears in the playoffs but used that as the springboard into 1986. The Giants' offense was objectively BAD in 2020 by any metric.
Your efforts to spin 2020 retroactively because you're excited for 2021 (including players who weren't on the team in 2020) just feels a little misleading.
See, Gidie? Even DJM knows it's still going to take another year beyond this one before the offense with DJ is any good.
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In comment 15313283 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15313276 Johnny5 said:
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... Yes I agree for sure. I guess I just feel like Daniel Jones was less of an overall issue regarding 2020 than some other BBI'ers.
I don't really understand how else it even could be stated.
I have said all along that the 2020 offense sucked, and Gidie's defense for why 2020's offense didn't suck was that he was excited about 2021.
That's not the way it works if you're just looking at each season on its own merits. 2020 did suck. Even if it ultimately becomes a stepping stone to offensive success in 2021 and beyond, it will still have sucked. Because 2021 has a different set of players, some different coaches, offseason development, etc.
There are several reasons to be excited about 2021's offense, and those may include some positive flashes that were visible in the 2020 quagmire. But nothing that happens from here forward erases the shitstain of the 2020 offense from the record books. It happened, and it was bad. The efforts to pretend that it wasn't as bad as any reasonably intelligent person knows it was are getting silly.
you are misquoting me. I said I was excited because I saw things improve over the course of the season last year that I enjoyed watching, and I cited some of them. In fact I left out the way I appreciated the pounding type N/S running game that was implemented. And then I added the things that were being built on leading me to be excited for this year.
Last year was not putrid! I enjoyed the season from beginning to end. The Giants played some real football.
Because we're saying two different things. You're talking about the reasons why you're excited for 2021. That's a season that hasn't happened yet. And you're talking about the steps forward that the team took in 2020, but those were almost entirely on defense, and somewhat on specials.
In fact, the offense actually took a pretty significant step backward in 2020. And that season is done. It's over. Whatever excitement you have for 2021 is about 2021, even if some of the seeds were planted in 2020. IMO, this isn't like 1985 where the Giants took their lumps from the Bears in the playoffs but used that as the springboard into 1986. The Giants' offense was objectively BAD in 2020 by any metric.
Your efforts to spin 2020 retroactively because you're excited for 2021 (including players who weren't on the team in 2020) just feels a little misleading.
Again you are totally miscasting what I’m saying/have said. Maybe go back and actually read it
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In comment 15313340 gidiefor said:
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In comment 15313283 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15313276 Johnny5 said:
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... Yes I agree for sure. I guess I just feel like Daniel Jones was less of an overall issue regarding 2020 than some other BBI'ers.
I don't really understand how else it even could be stated.
I have said all along that the 2020 offense sucked, and Gidie's defense for why 2020's offense didn't suck was that he was excited about 2021.
That's not the way it works if you're just looking at each season on its own merits. 2020 did suck. Even if it ultimately becomes a stepping stone to offensive success in 2021 and beyond, it will still have sucked. Because 2021 has a different set of players, some different coaches, offseason development, etc.
There are several reasons to be excited about 2021's offense, and those may include some positive flashes that were visible in the 2020 quagmire. But nothing that happens from here forward erases the shitstain of the 2020 offense from the record books. It happened, and it was bad. The efforts to pretend that it wasn't as bad as any reasonably intelligent person knows it was are getting silly.
you are misquoting me. I said I was excited because I saw things improve over the course of the season last year that I enjoyed watching, and I cited some of them. In fact I left out the way I appreciated the pounding type N/S running game that was implemented. And then I added the things that were being built on leading me to be excited for this year.
Last year was not putrid! I enjoyed the season from beginning to end. The Giants played some real football.
Because we're saying two different things. You're talking about the reasons why you're excited for 2021. That's a season that hasn't happened yet. And you're talking about the steps forward that the team took in 2020, but those were almost entirely on defense, and somewhat on specials.
In fact, the offense actually took a pretty significant step backward in 2020. And that season is done. It's over. Whatever excitement you have for 2021 is about 2021, even if some of the seeds were planted in 2020. IMO, this isn't like 1985 where the Giants took their lumps from the Bears in the playoffs but used that as the springboard into 1986. The Giants' offense was objectively BAD in 2020 by any metric.
Your efforts to spin 2020 retroactively because you're excited for 2021 (including players who weren't on the team in 2020) just feels a little misleading.
Again you are totally miscasting what I’m saying/have said. Maybe go back and actually read it
So far, you've declared that the definition of putrid is a subjective one.
You've talked about how you're optimistic for this season (and I have repeatedly agreed with you on that) as your way of sidestepping exactly how bad the offense was last season (and have referenced Golladay as part of that excitement - again, I agree about being excited - despite the fact that he wasn't on the team last year so he doesn't factor into how bad last year's offense was).
You've talked about how they hung in games last year, even though that was a product of the defense's improvement more than anything else and my point has definitively been about the offense.
You pointed to a pounding type running game being part of the 2020 strategy, even though the entire RB corps (if you factor for SB being out for almost the entire 2020 season) is different this season, and the current RB group seems to suggest at least the possibility that the running game might not necessarily be a pounding, between-the-tackles, strategy in 2021.
Meanwhile, all I've said - repeatedly - is that being optimistic about the upcoming season doesn't justify any sort of revisionist history specifically regarding the 2020 offense, which was the worst in the NFC and 2nd worst in the NFL. It's entirely possible to acknowledge the overall poor performance of the NYG offense in 2020 and see reasons for hope about the 2021 offense, but the latter doesn't change the former in any way, because 2020 already happened.
Which part am I miscasting?
As others have pointed out, "everybody" wants DJ to succeed...right?
So, why come in and point out that his highlight reel is pointless or a waste of time or really, anything else other than what the OP wanted it to be, a possible window into the future?
We all know where most of us stand with regards to DJ's past performances and future prognosis.
Enjoy the thread for the reasons that were clearly stated in the OP, or move on. Those of us who have hope already know what those that don't think that he's the guy...thinks about him.
Maybe what we need is 2 stickie threads. One for everything that is wrong with DJ and one for everything that is right with DJ.
One those threads, everybody stays in their lane.
Of course, we wouldn't want to remove the "discussions" of both...that can happen on all other threads.
Some of us don't want to hear the naysayers and some don't want to hear the positivity.
Credit the offense ... for what? Not tallying less PPG than the Jets did?
5:56 pm : link
In comment 15313634 gidiefor said:
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team over the course of the season, how enjoyable they were to watch - and you credit only the defense -- I credit both the defense and the offense
What if we look at it like marking periods in school, and each season is a grade level? If a student fails his first two marking periods, but then gets a D and a C in the final two marking periods, you could make the case that he's showing solid improvement, right? But he's still getting a D- for the year. By any objective measure, it's a pretty putrid grade for the full year, in spite of the improvement, right?
But that same student hires some new tutors, gets some great school supplies and a new computer, and there's tons of reasons for optimism for that student going into the next grade. But the D- happened, there's no way to change that retroactively by the steps he took to improve for his upcoming school year.
I think that's a fair analogy that encapsulates what both of us are saying, would you agree?
As others have pointed out, "everybody" wants DJ to succeed...right?
So, why come in and point out that his highlight reel is pointless or a waste of time or really, anything else other than what the OP wanted it to be, a possible window into the future?
We all know where most of us stand with regards to DJ's past performances and future prognosis.
Enjoy the thread for the reasons that were clearly stated in the OP, or move on. Those of us who have hope already know what those that don't think that he's the guy...thinks about him.
Maybe what we need is 2 stickie threads. One for everything that is wrong with DJ and one for everything that is right with DJ.
One those threads, everybody stays in their lane.
Of course, we wouldn't want to remove the "discussions" of both...that can happen on all other threads.
Some of us don't want to hear the naysayers and some don't want to hear the positivity.
That's one of the strangest things about some "fans".
Every DJ thread becomes a chance for them to come out and tell the board how much he sucks. Any thread. A thread about him holding practice. A thread about a positive article. A thread about highlights.
It isn't rocket science what the content of the thread is, yet some bozos just can't help themselves to take potshots.
The Giants offense during the Brosnan/90s years are the Greatest Show on Turf compared to the 2020 squad .
I just think he was a lousy pick ... at #6.
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needs to be a lot longer. He's got the talent and chops and work ethic. Now he needs to put it all together. Jones doesn't have to be perfect. Eli wasn't perfect. He just has to win.
See, Gidie? Even DJM knows it's still going to take another year beyond this one before the offense with DJ is any good.
I’ve always said jones needs to improve. Any rational giants fan feels this way. Where I disagree is with the people who practically lambast the giants daily for sticking with Jones or how they scoff at any talk that jones can improve or that he wasn’t victimized or held back by a bad supporting cast. It can be both.
Who in their right mind doesn’t think jones needs to play better? The whole team needs to play better. And they just might.
Every DJ thread becomes a chance for them to come out and tell the board how much he sucks. Any thread. A thread about him holding practice. A thread about a positive article. A thread about highlights.
Even you have to admit that the thread about Jones having a steak dinner with a curious woman looking on while Jones uttered a bunch of cliches was utter garbage.
I'd be interested in seeing this grade and evaluation...
As others have pointed out, "everybody" wants DJ to succeed...right?
So, why come in and point out that his highlight reel is pointless or a waste of time or really, anything else other than what the OP wanted it to be, a possible window into the future?
We all know where most of us stand with regards to DJ's past performances and future prognosis.
Enjoy the thread for the reasons that were clearly stated in the OP, or move on. Those of us who have hope already know what those that don't think that he's the guy...thinks about him.
Maybe what we need is 2 stickie threads. One for everything that is wrong with DJ and one for everything that is right with DJ.
One those threads, everybody stays in their lane.
Of course, we wouldn't want to remove the "discussions" of both...that can happen on all other threads.
Some of us don't want to hear the naysayers and some don't want to hear the positivity.
I want to hear it all. Including the inevitable free and open debate.
But if you feel that two separate but equal threads is the way to go on a simple fan site to keep posters civil, then start it up...
Here's the thing - there was an overall grade: 37.5.
That's the percentage of games the Giants won. And by marking period, it was:
Q1: 0.0
Q2: 25.0
Q3: 100.0
Q4: 25.0
And to the point I've been trying to make, specific to the offense, here's their grade by marking period (in ppg):
Q1: 11.75
Q2: 24.5
Q3: 21.5
Q4: 12.25
If anything, that's a pretty uneven performance overall, but that 4th marking period sure looks a lot like that first marking period.
But the defense has a slightly different story to tell:
Q1: 24
Q2: 25.75
Q3: 16.5
Q4: 23
Their Q4 also looks a lot like their Q1, but you can also see here why I say that the feel-good element of the 2020 season was the defense. When THEY stepped up, the team won. The offense was borderline nonexistent in the first and last quarters of the season, and wasn't even especially good during the team's win streak. But the defense was outstanding during that stretch.
In any case, the point is, it's absolutely possible to quantify this sort of thing. It just feels like you're intentionally reluctant to do so because it's inconsistent with the warm and fuzzies, but it doesn't have to be.
Last season is over. It's a 6-10 season no matter how you spin it. The offense was 31st in the league and last in the NFC no matter how you spin it.
Seeing positives and optimism and hope for 2021 is about 2021, not 2020, because 2020 is over and those results are already counted. And no matter how many glimmers of hope you may have seen in 2020, the truth is that Herm Edwards had a point:
"When I see these and imagine Barkley and Golloday in the mix -- and an improved defense -- it gets me all fired up about the coming season!"
***Bumping the OP for those that may have missed it***
Link - ( New Window )
"When I see these and imagine Barkley and Golloday in the mix -- and an improved defense -- it gets me all fired up about the coming season!"
***Bumping the OP for those that may have missed it*** Link - ( New Window )
This might come as a shock to you, but discussions can evolve over time.
Gidie's OP is right at the top for all to see. And I want to be clear that I absolutely respect his view here, even if I see things differently. I'm not the one trying to redefine words or act as though simply quantifiable metrics aren't quantifiable at all.
Haha I couldn't resist pouncing on it!
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I get it. I meant 2021 damnit!
Haha I couldn't resist pouncing on it!
I'd be disappointed if you didn't, lol!