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NFT: Is it time to tear down the Yankees?

NoGainDayne : 7/23/2021 1:07 pm
I'm watching the Red Sox this year. And I can't help but think how pragmatic they are in terms of keeping their team young and managing their windows to compete well. I feel like the Yankees are operating a bit like the Big Stein Yanks, with more of a little Stein at the helm. I know it's a different game now but even the Dodgers, who look most like the Big Stein Yanks have a steady flow of young players coming up consistently. Honestly there is nothing wrong with running it like a business, it's not a critique of Hal, just that especially now, you need to have the young players keep making contributions even if you are willing to spend.

For whatever reason the Yanks don't seem to have this same flow. At the very least I think we have to look at our player development practices need a serious look. Perhaps that is already happening.

Regardless I'm looking at this team, and I just don't see the talent to win it all, really any time in the next few years. And that makes me think, do we line up with Gerrit Coles window at all? Or will we be overpaying him after he's lost his firepower, interfering with our next window?

I think to start you find a team like the Giants, White Sox, or even Mariners who you offer to eat a chunk of salary on Cole and Stanton to get nice prospect packages for.

You trade Judge, even if the package is not what you hope, there will be suiters.

Same with DJLM, again might have to eat some of his salary but I think especially a contending team would love to have him.

Kluber based on what he's shown I think you could get something for.

The rest are kind of hey we are open for business types of moves.

The Rays might be the best run team in baseball. The Jays have a great young foundation. And the Red Sox, don't mind being bad for a season to ensure they can come back young and strong.

I don't know where I stand on Cashman, it's hard to say. It's hard for me to not look at him as at least above average at his job, personally I think he has a mandate to not do a re-build in this fashion and that does make it challenging. His ability to recruit someone like Cole certainly did show me he has the most important talent as a Yankees GM, closing a deal with a difference maker that hits the open market.

There is part of me that says damn, with Cole, you have a chance to compete in any year. I just do not see us at all having the lineup any time soon to make him win. Even if the pitching staff is there.

Now there is part of me that says, we could compete for that 2nd wildcard and have Cole give us a chance at the playoffs. With Kluber rounding into shape we could be competitive. I just look at our lineup now and say even if all healthy who scares you? Judge? Voit maybe? And both those guys seem like they are dice roll on health.

I hope I'm wrong and I don't think they will do this. I just feel like I see the next 2-4 years as us fighting to be a playoff team and maybe overpaying a core that isn't a world series contending core...
.  
Scooter185 : 7/23/2021 1:13 pm : link
The Yankees have a hard time developing players for some reason. I'm not sure a teardown and rebuild via influx of younger players would have the same results on the Yankees as on other teams. Not with current FO leadership at least.
Yeah I think that's why I mentioned looking at their development  
NoGainDayne : 7/23/2021 1:15 pm : link
alongside it. Grab some up and coming development people from Oakland, LA, Tampa...

You are right, we are missing something there but we can't ignore that most contenders these days are built through good player development and sometimes trading away veterans / highly paid players that won't match up with a realistic talent development window.
RE: .  
ThreePoints : 7/23/2021 1:20 pm : link
In comment 15311344 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
The Yankees have a hard time developing players for some reason. I'm not sure a teardown and rebuild via influx of younger players would have the same results on the Yankees as on other teams. Not with current FO leadership at least.


Maybe the coaching just stinks. I hate to rag on Boone and his staff, but it seems like some of these young guys just aren't progress.

I guess Gio and Judge are the exceptions, but is there anything Gleyber Torres does better now than he did 2 years ago? What happened to Clint Frazier?
Start with the front office, then the coaching staff.  
Red Dog : 7/23/2021 1:22 pm : link
The biggest problems for the Yankees aren't the players - it's the front office anal-ytics idiots and coaching morons.

Then tweak the player personnel.
RE: Start with the front office, then the coaching staff.  
NoGainDayne : 7/23/2021 1:38 pm : link
In comment 15311358 Red Dog said:
Quote:
The biggest problems for the Yankees aren't the players - it's the front office anal-ytics idiots and coaching morons.

Then tweak the player personnel.


It's really odd to suggest that analytics is the problem. There isn't a successful team in the league that doesn't have a top notch analytics department. The Astros made it a requirement a while back to have their minor league managers understand databases so they could teach their players how to do analytics on themselves.

The Rays hired an ex Wall St. guy to run their whole team a while ago. How do you think they do so well on so little? Their analytics on comparative value are second to none.

You could say the Yanks might need better analytics people. But it is an odd flex to act like the Yanks problem is math. It very much is not...
No, but ....  
Manny in CA : 7/23/2021 1:47 pm : link

Aaron Boone; I'd say, "keep your bags packed". bro ...

Two big games where you tire defeat out of the mouth of victory - Removal of Loasiga & Cessa mowing batters down only to give the ball to Green for no good reason !
Tough to really parse through  
ManningLobsItBurressAlone : 7/23/2021 2:03 pm : link
who's at fault for this disaster of a season so far. I'd like to say it's management and what a bad product they've put on the field, but this is the same team that went 33-27 (not impressive but COVID so grain of salt) and took the American League representatives to the brink in the ALDS, and won 103 and 100 games in the 2 years prior to that.

This year the shocking underperformance of some of our key contributors is really what I keep coming back to.
-DJL who had a .922 OPS in his first two years here all the way down to .711 this season.
-Gleyber who had a .834 OPS in his first three years here, even counting his miserable last season, is all the way down to .666 this year.

It goes on and on:
Gio- .881 vs .756 now
Gardy- .763 (2017-2020) vs .616
Judge and Stanton both only down 50 or so points here, so not terrible, but these are all over 100 point drops.

The complete and utter stagnation/failures of Andujar and Clint. The injury woes to Voit/Hicks. Have to say I'm surprised that Thames hasn't been fired at this point, at least as a ceremonial move to appease the fans, since offense has clearly been our #1 problem.

The starters and pen are really both doing their job. Taillon and German the 2 SP's (4.6 ERA and 4.71 respectively), that have struggled, and even then it was a little expected with their long layoffs, and still that's not putrid.

On the relief side, we've had great years from Cessa, Green (last night excluded), Lasagna, Luetge, King, Cortes, even Abreu and ODay in their limited roles. Every one of those guys have an ERA+ of 130 or better, with the exception of King who's at 116. Chapman has really struggled recently, and on the year his ERA+ is down to 101 (essentially league average reliever), after a completely dominant stretch of closing out games, and Britton in his short return back has been poor.

Really, who has value in a trade besides someone like Judge? The only ones I can really think would fetch some sort of good return are guys like Chad Green, Lasagna, Monty. Gleyber would be a ballsy trade, but that would be significant.

it has to start with Cashman and his people  
Victor in CT : 7/23/2021 2:15 pm : link
as for trading players "ManningLobs" is right. Judge is the only one who will bring a significant return. And now has to be the time to do it because he's been healthy so far. They're stuck with Stanton, (whose acquisition is a fireable offense after finally losing the Aroid contract) , Gleyber and Sanchez all have baggage, Voit is always hurt.

And as Scooter185 points out, bringing in prospects to be schooled in this system is a dicey proposition.
I'd trade Judge  
UConn4523 : 7/23/2021 2:20 pm : link
regardless of whether we are "rebuilding or not". I wouldn't pay him what he will command and I can't see how he holds up long term. Love him, but for 7+ more years I just don't see it.
NoGain you miss the obvious  
Red Dog : 7/23/2021 2:26 pm : link
The anal-ytics people ARE the problem. They are NOT getting the job done.

They say that numbers don't lie, and the numbers that count the most in baseball are in the won-lost column.

The more the Yankees rely on those people, the further they are falling behind. So those people have to go or the franchise will become a grossly overpaid last place team. Actually they are that now except for the total disaster that is the Baltimore Orioles.
NoGainDayne  
arniefez : 7/23/2021 2:34 pm : link
There's a lot to unpack in your OP. The comments in bold are my opinions/facts.

Quote:
Regardless I'm looking at this team, and I just don't see the talent to win it all, really any time in the next few years. And that makes me think, do we line up with Gerrit Coles window at all? Or will we be overpaying him after he's lost his firepower, interfering with our next window?

If you sign a player to a 9 year contract the odds are very strong there will be several years that are a complete waste of money. I'll guess Cole won't be an exception to that rule. But I would not trade one of the 10 best pitchers in MLB. Especially since the Yankees seem to incapable of developing their own pitchers. There are also these facts that render the idea moot. Cole's contract includes a player opt-out option after the 2024 season, but if he chooses to exercise that option, the Yankees would be able to void the opt-out and tack on a one-year extension worth $36 million. Cole also has a full no-trade clause in his contract.

I think to start you find a team like the Giants, White Sox, or even Mariners who you offer to eat a chunk of salary on Cole and Stanton to get nice prospect packages for.

After this year Stanton is owed 189 million dollars from 2022-2027. He also has a full no trade so the Yankees would have to get him to waive that or pay him even more money to waive it. Not impossible but highly, highly unlikely.

You trade Judge, even if the package is not what you hope, there will be suiters.

As a fan I hope they don't trade Judge. From a business standpoint I understand the idea. But how poorly managed have the Yankees been that they have to consider trading their best player by far because they owe so much money to a lesser player.

Same with DJLM, again might have to eat some of his salary but I think especially a contending team would love to have him.

If I had a vote I would have passed on 5 years at that price for a 32 year old player. Once again because the roster has been so mismanaged and has so many redundant 3 out come players so they caved to his ask because they were worried about fan reaction if they let one of the few highly productive, popular players on the team walk for a draft pick. I'm sure the Yankees hoped he would have maintained his level for at least another 2 years. That hasn't been the case. They'd probably have to pay quite a bit of his contract to trade him for anything of value.

Kluber based on what he's shown I think you could get something for.

What can you get for a pitcher owed millions of dollars that has thrown less than 100 innings since 2018? Maybe a contending playoff team would trade a B prospect to take the gamble?

The rest are kind of hey we are open for business types of moves.

The Rays might be the best run team in baseball. The Jays have a great young foundation. And the Red Sox, don't mind being bad for a season to ensure they can come back young and strong.

I don't know where I stand on Cashman, it's hard to say. It's hard for me to not look at him as at least above average at his job, personally I think he has a mandate to not do a re-build in this fashion and that does make it challenging. His ability to recruit someone like Cole certainly did show me he has the most important talent as a Yankees GM, closing a deal with a difference maker that hits the open market.

So if you were the GM of the Yankees and offered Cole a 9 year and 384 million contract he wouldn't have signed it? Of course he would have. IMO outspending teams isn't a talent. IMO anyone can do it. Give me or you over 2 billion for salary for 10 years we'd do just fine running the Yankees. We might even win a WS. What is Cashman above average at? Certainly not player development, player scouting or roster construction. He gives great press conference though.

There is part of me that says damn, with Cole, you have a chance to compete in any year. I just do not see us at all having the lineup any time soon to make him win. Even if the pitching staff is there.

Now there is part of me that says, we could compete for that 2nd wildcard and have Cole give us a chance at the playoffs. With Kluber rounding into shape we could be competitive. I just look at our lineup now and say even if all healthy who scares you? Judge? Voit maybe? And both those guys seem like they are dice roll on health.

I hope I'm wrong and I don't think they will do this. I just feel like I see the next 2-4 years as us fighting to be a playoff team and maybe overpaying a core that isn't a world series contending core...

My opinion is Luke Voit stinks. 3 outcome redundant hitter, horrible fielder. He's a net negative and needs to be dumped. IMO the Yankees have plenty of really good pieces that you can build an excellent team around. IMO the #1 need is an above average defensive SS and moving Torres to 2B unless they trade him. #2 is a defense first, fast runner, contact hitter CF. Hicks is owed a lot of money. He's also physically compromised going forward. Thanks to Cashman they owe him 40 million dollars after this year. That's a sunk cost. They need to ignore it. IMO add those 2 players and the entire team would play differently in 2022 and be a contender to win the WS.
RedDog  
arniefez : 7/23/2021 2:45 pm : link
I think you're on to something. But IMO not exactly the way you put it. Under Cashman the Yankees have been Analytics followers. Every time there is a strategic shift in team building the Yankees are chasing it. They are never ahead of the MLB roster building trends. Once they see how the smart teams are doing things they throw enormous amounts of money at their Analytics department to try and copy/catchup. By the time they catchup the landscape has shifted again.

Another thing I find very odd is that Cashman and company have built the team over the past decade feeding a bizarre fetish prioritizing tall RH fastball pitchers and big softball type RH hitters with little to show for it (Just Judge). It's almost as if the GM was a small college 2B with no power that couldn't hit tall RH fastball pitchers and wishes he was 6'5" and 250 lbs instead.
A few thoughts  
Matt M. : 7/23/2021 3:06 pm : link
1) Firsat and foremost, they are 100% NOT being run like Big Stein, as you put it. For one thing, the luxury tax would not be a barrier for him. For another, he would not be averse to firing Boone and/or Cashman in season or with time remaining on their contract.

2) Stanton isn't going anywhere because he is not likely to approve very many trades. you are mentioning places like Seattle as a possible landing spot. You think he would approve that deal? The other teams would require them to eat so much money that the Yankees wouldn't do it, even if he approved.

3) The Yankees don't seem to have the high level prospects to think about an overhaul now. Their best prospects are not in AAA.
All indications  
BigBluesman : 7/23/2021 4:16 pm : link
point to "buy mode" regardless of our thoughts.
Definitely forgot about the NTC for Stanton  
NoGainDayne : 7/23/2021 4:41 pm : link
I absolutely think you could get a haul for Cole though. My point about his contract isn't anything about like if FA contracts are a good thing, most aren't great at all towards the end it's the fact that by the time it gets to that point I'm not sure the Yanks will have used his good years at a real shot at a title. So I question the point of the asset.

And the other players I mentioned other than Judge are kind of a get whatever you can kind of situation.

Let’s watch Cashman trade Volpe, Peraza, Gil and Medina for Joey  
Jim in Hoboken : 7/23/2021 4:48 pm : link
Gallo. So we can have an OF of 600k’s. Actualy, no, my bad, Stanton isn’t allowed to play in the field.
Couple of points..  
Giant John : 7/23/2021 4:48 pm : link
When is the last time the Yankees have developed a #1 starting pitcher?
The best I can think of is Ron Guidry? Next Andy Pettite? What’s that been a 30 period?
Team has not developed a top tier position player other than Arron Judge since when?
Isn’t the problem obvious?
Analytics  
Scooter185 : 7/23/2021 4:54 pm : link
Is about decreasing negative outcomes, not eliminating them completely. I see a lot of fans think that a negative outcome (strikeout, giving up a hit, losing, etc) invalidates the data the Yankees are employing when in reality it's built in.

Let's take last night's game for example. Say we put it in a computer simulation and they win 850/1000 times or 85%. Would you take an 85% chance of winning? So what happened? Does them losing mean the numbers were wrong?! No it just means last night falls into one of those 150 simulated loses.

This can be extrapolated out to include entire seasons. We've seen this same basic team succeed, this year is just one of the opposite sides of the probability.
RE: Definitely forgot about the NTC for Stanton  
Matt M. : 7/23/2021 4:59 pm : link
In comment 15311631 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
I absolutely think you could get a haul for Cole though. My point about his contract isn't anything about like if FA contracts are a good thing, most aren't great at all towards the end it's the fact that by the time it gets to that point I'm not sure the Yanks will have used his good years at a real shot at a title. So I question the point of the asset.

And the other players I mentioned other than Judge are kind of a get whatever you can kind of situation.
Most teams would require the Yankees to eat way too much of that Cole deal. As I mentioned, supposedly Hal is very opposed to paying people NOT to play or manage.
RE: Couple of points..  
Matt M. : 7/23/2021 5:00 pm : link
In comment 15311638 Giant John said:
Quote:
When is the last time the Yankees have developed a #1 starting pitcher?
The best I can think of is Ron Guidry? Next Andy Pettite? What’s that been a 30 period?
Team has not developed a top tier position player other than Arron Judge since when?
Isn’t the problem obvious?
Righetti, even if they made a mistake by making him a closer.
RE: Analytics  
Matt M. : 7/23/2021 5:07 pm : link
In comment 15311645 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
Is about decreasing negative outcomes, not eliminating them completely. I see a lot of fans think that a negative outcome (strikeout, giving up a hit, losing, etc) invalidates the data the Yankees are employing when in reality it's built in.

Let's take last night's game for example. Say we put it in a computer simulation and they win 850/1000 times or 85%. Would you take an 85% chance of winning? So what happened? Does them losing mean the numbers were wrong?! No it just means last night falls into one of those 150 simulated loses.

This can be extrapolated out to include entire seasons. We've seen this same basic team succeed, this year is just one of the opposite sides of the probability.
One problem I have with analytics is not enough of a negative weight is placed on strikeouts. Another, is the term itself is used as if it defines what the plan is. In this day and age, every team is using analytics in some capacity. Additionally, the Yankees analytics places more weight or value on launch angle and exit velocity than say, the Rays, who place more on contact and OBA.

People talk about Billy Beane and the As as the real birth of analytics as an entire team philosophy. But, even before him look at the Yankee team that won Championships in the 90s, which in part prompted Beane. They may not have called it analytics, but they had statistical analysis that placed a high value on OBA as leading to runs. Granted they still spent on big names, but they also had a balanced lineup. Almost top to bottom they valued OBA with some pop. They were not HR heavy, but still hit a good amount of HRs. That just wans't their focal point.

I get your point about overall success rates and probabilities. But, do you think their analytics really show something akin to 85% success with Kriske in a save situation, for example. However you slice that one, it was a bad move in a big game.
RE: RE: Analytics  
Scooter185 : 7/23/2021 5:21 pm : link
In comment 15311663 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 15311645 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


Is about decreasing negative outcomes, not eliminating them completely. I see a lot of fans think that a negative outcome (strikeout, giving up a hit, losing, etc) invalidates the data the Yankees are employing when in reality it's built in.

Let's take last night's game for example. Say we put it in a computer simulation and they win 850/1000 times or 85%. Would you take an 85% chance of winning? So what happened? Does them losing mean the numbers were wrong?! No it just means last night falls into one of those 150 simulated loses.

This can be extrapolated out to include entire seasons. We've seen this same basic team succeed, this year is just one of the opposite sides of the probability.

One problem I have with analytics is not enough of a negative weight is placed on strikeouts. Another, is the term itself is used as if it defines what the plan is. In this day and age, every team is using analytics in some capacity. Additionally, the Yankees analytics places more weight or value on launch angle and exit velocity than say, the Rays, who place more on contact and OBA.

People talk about Billy Beane and the As as the real birth of analytics as an entire team philosophy. But, even before him look at the Yankee team that won Championships in the 90s, which in part prompted Beane. They may not have called it analytics, but they had statistical analysis that placed a high value on OBA as leading to runs. Granted they still spent on big names, but they also had a balanced lineup. Almost top to bottom they valued OBA with some pop. They were not HR heavy, but still hit a good amount of HRs. That just wans't their focal point.

I get your point about overall success rates and probabilities. But, do you think their analytics really show something akin to 85% success with Kriske in a save situation, for example. However you slice that one, it was a bad move in a big game.


There's a strong argument that the Yankees aren't weighting the right things. Won't find me saying otherwise.

I just made the numbers up as an example so don't think I'm saying we'd have an 85% of winning with Kriske on the mound in Manfred ball innings
RE: RE: RE: Analytics  
Matt M. : 7/23/2021 5:26 pm : link
In comment 15311669 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
In comment 15311663 Matt M. said:


Quote:


In comment 15311645 Scooter185 said:


Quote:


Is about decreasing negative outcomes, not eliminating them completely. I see a lot of fans think that a negative outcome (strikeout, giving up a hit, losing, etc) invalidates the data the Yankees are employing when in reality it's built in.

Let's take last night's game for example. Say we put it in a computer simulation and they win 850/1000 times or 85%. Would you take an 85% chance of winning? So what happened? Does them losing mean the numbers were wrong?! No it just means last night falls into one of those 150 simulated loses.

This can be extrapolated out to include entire seasons. We've seen this same basic team succeed, this year is just one of the opposite sides of the probability.

One problem I have with analytics is not enough of a negative weight is placed on strikeouts. Another, is the term itself is used as if it defines what the plan is. In this day and age, every team is using analytics in some capacity. Additionally, the Yankees analytics places more weight or value on launch angle and exit velocity than say, the Rays, who place more on contact and OBA.

People talk about Billy Beane and the As as the real birth of analytics as an entire team philosophy. But, even before him look at the Yankee team that won Championships in the 90s, which in part prompted Beane. They may not have called it analytics, but they had statistical analysis that placed a high value on OBA as leading to runs. Granted they still spent on big names, but they also had a balanced lineup. Almost top to bottom they valued OBA with some pop. They were not HR heavy, but still hit a good amount of HRs. That just wans't their focal point.

I get your point about overall success rates and probabilities. But, do you think their analytics really show something akin to 85% success with Kriske in a save situation, for example. However you slice that one, it was a bad move in a big game.



There's a strong argument that the Yankees aren't weighting the right things. Won't find me saying otherwise.

I just made the numbers up as an example so don't think I'm saying we'd have an 85% of winning with Kriske on the mound in Manfred ball innings
Scooter - I know you weren't actually suggesting an 85% success rate. I was using your hypothetical, but I would be shocked if any simulation or metric showed a positive success rate in that scenario. Casting aside all the other questionable decisions that game. That one decision for the 10th directly lost the game, in my opinion. There is no way in Hell I would ever imagine a Yankee-Red Sox game being decided in extra innings with Chapman not even considered, or Britton, for that matter. There are reasons you wouldn't pitch either, in general. But, when the game is there and the alternative is Kriske, you all but handed a won game to the Sox.
Cole has a full no trade  
arniefez : 7/23/2021 5:29 pm : link
So unless he asks for a trade he’s not going anywhere.

The Yankees front office sucks at player evaluation period. Few MLB teams get ess for their money
What pisses me off  
DC Gmen Fan : 7/23/2021 6:37 pm : link
is you have a manager so out of tune with what's going on, that in the 10th inning of a critical game against your storied rivals you have Brooks Kreske pitching to Rob Brantley.
RE: the no trades  
NoGainDayne : 7/23/2021 6:47 pm : link
That is why I named some contenders. I think it is also possible that they Cole or Stanton could see the writing on the wall here, especially if they started to make other moves and not want to be part of a rebuild.

Cole especially strikes me as someone who could easily be convinced to move to an up and coming team if the Yanks didn't want to go for it.

This isn't about if the Yanks are going to do it. More if it's "time" to. I think it looks like time but I am obviously unsure.

I'm not sure I'd bet on them even getting to the ALCS in the next few years but I do think it's possible. I'm more commenting on the overall trend that, teams that win the WS these days tend to be full of young low priced talent and I don't see much of that in our future any time soon.
Red Sox fan Mike Barnicle summed it up well this morning  
Ike#88 : 7/23/2021 8:23 pm : link
This is the most unathletic Yankees roster I can remember. Whoever put it together really messed up.
RE: Couple of points..  
Scooter185 : 7/23/2021 8:38 pm : link
In comment 15311638 Giant John said:
Quote:
When is the last time the Yankees have developed a #1 starting pitcher?
The best I can think of is Ron Guidry? Next Andy Pettite? What’s that been a 30 period?
Team has not developed a top tier position player other than Arron Judge since when?
Isn’t the problem obvious?


Chien Ming Wang until he got hurt running the bases
RE: What pisses me off  
rnargi : 7/23/2021 9:35 pm : link
In comment 15311734 DC Gmen Fan said:
Quote:
is you have a manager so out of tune with what's going on, that in the 10th inning of a critical game against your storied rivals you have Brooks Kreske pitching to Rob Brantley.


Britton and Chapman were unavailable. Somewhere, Billy Martin is laughing his ass off at this carnival show
RE: RE: What pisses me off  
section125 : 7/24/2021 7:23 am : link
In comment 15311907 rnargi said:
Quote:
In comment 15311734 DC Gmen Fan said:


Quote:


is you have a manager so out of tune with what's going on, that in the 10th inning of a critical game against your storied rivals you have Brooks Kreske pitching to Rob Brantley.



Britton and Chapman were unavailable. Somewhere, Billy Martin is laughing his ass off at this carnival show


I know what you are saying, but Billie Martin damaged a lot of young pitchers arms by over pitching them. Pitching is different now too - this is all high effort max velocity. There are only so many max FBs a pitcher can make in a short period of time.
Pedro Martinez said that if he knew that a 92 mph FB was just as effective when coupled with his 78 mph change up, he would have not thrown 95 mph all the time and maybe had a couple more years at the tail end of his career.
That Pedro quote is disingenuous IMO  
UConn4523 : 7/24/2021 7:28 am : link
why did it take him until after retirement to figure that out? In all likelihood it wouldn’t be as effective which is why he didn’t opt to dialing down his fastball.
No  
mdthedream : 7/24/2021 7:41 am : link
Fire Boone. makes some lineup changes and get the pitching staff back to health. Add a solid reliever. Like the Red Sox sometimes you have a down year. No reason to panic.
RE: That Pedro quote is disingenuous IMO  
section125 : 7/24/2021 8:22 am : link
In comment 15312064 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
why did it take him until after retirement to figure that out? In all likelihood it wouldn’t be as effective which is why he didn’t opt to dialing down his fastball.


He figured it out when in the last two or so years of his career he was nearly as effective sitting 92 as when he threw 95 earlier in his career.
He was good but not dominant  
UConn4523 : 7/24/2021 8:35 am : link
so if not dominant was his goal then sure. Most if not all pitchers aren’t getting away with that, otherwise it would be happening more.
RE: He was good but not dominant  
section125 : 7/24/2021 8:57 am : link
In comment 15312107 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
so if not dominant was his goal then sure. Most if not all pitchers aren’t getting away with that, otherwise it would be happening more.


I think his point was, he could have sat 92 and saved the 95 for when he needed it as opposed to sitting 95 all game. Coney talked about having a little extra in the tank reserved for occasional situations. Like Cole sits 97/98 but will bring 100/101 for certain players/situations.

Losing track of the point - which is people knocking the Yankees on not using RPs on over two consecutive nights. I agree with them, except in the playoffs and depending on the number of pitches throw on the two previous nights.
Where do you start?  
PA Aggie : 7/24/2021 6:47 pm : link
Watching them collapse thursday, not show up yesterday, and today, doesn't matter much what happens, this team needs a major overhaul. I understand having subs making up half the lineup against the best team in the AL is a tough task to handle. And going 8-3 or so over the last two weeks is not proof this team is fine, we have seen enough this season to know the long term institutional-wide issues of this team.

There are several major problems:
Cashman put together a crappy system; righty power, unathletic players, ludicrous contracts (Stanton, Hicks, etc.)

Boone is not a good coach. But a lot of this is not his fault. While I could take or leave him, you can ask, who will replace him? Cashman needs the exact same type of guy who will take orders from the head office.

Analytics seems to be misguided. I'll be the first to say I don't know exactly how one team weighs data vs another, but the Yankees, who I assume pay a bunch of people good money, don't seem to be making the best of it? Data is only as good as the person interpreting it.

Players...maybe the big contracts, or is it just being a Yankee, that takes the 'hunger' away? TB Rays, Boston, Astros, seem to have something to prove, that makes them hungry. But the lack of development of younger players (Frazier, Torres, Andujar, and just about every pitcher)is painfully obvious. It's not like we have 21-23 year olds on the verge of breaking in, the current makeshift lineup has several guys already in their late 20'sj.

Which leads to the last and to me, the most important to the Yankees' need for improvement, and that is the player development. I have to question the draft process, the coaching at the lower levels, the assistant coaches at the upper level.

The Yankees will be saddled with Stanton, Hicks, Cole, and likely Judge contracts. While Cole and Judge will likely payoff for several years to come, getting rid of Stanton and Hicks will be virtually impossible. I think moving Voit, Frazier, Andujar, Odor, saying goodbye to Gardy, will all help, but unfortunately their values may be at an all-time low. We may have to endure a few years of mediocrity to REALLY rebuild. But the culture at EVERY level has to change, but as long as Cashman is at the helm, I don't see it happening. Bowing out in the playoffs every year seems sufficient for him.

I will still be a fan, but it will be hard to buy any Yankee product or go to a game when they are in this state.



I don’t think this will be an easy rebuild, and someone other than  
Jim in Hoboken : 7/24/2021 8:44 pm : link
Cashman has to do it. He will give Sanchez, Judge, and maybe Torres long term contracts. He’s stubborn and averse to making the tough decisions.

Judge has to be traded. Stanton’s presence demands so. Cashman needs to pay the price for that mistake. Plus I don’t think giving Judge a 7 year contract is a wise decision either.

Move Torres to 2nd, if not this year at least next year. Promote Peraza to AAA and give him a shot next year at SS. We need to see if he’s the SS of the future so we know what to do with Volpe.

Stick Florial at CF and be done with it. Hicks can man LF next year until Dominguez or Pereira/Alcantera is ready.

I know we’d be selling low, but I have really no use for Frazier, Voit, and Andujar. I have seen enough.

Sanchez I’d bring back, but on a prove it deal. Wouldn’t be opposed to a lefty hitting defense oriented catcher either, until one of the gazillion draft picks or IFA’s materializes.

See if you can trade Chappy, Green and Britton. Give the home grown pitchers a chance. Make Loaisiga the closer.

Fire the entire major and minor league coaching staffs. Revamp the scouting dept while you are at it. Boone is a goner for sure, throw money at Cash from Tampa.

Or just let Cashman go.

Obviously none of those things are happening, Cashman will be tasked with the rebuild. Gallo is sure to make an appearance soon. Cricket players will be brought in for their perfect launch angles. Hal will adjust prices to compensate for the waning interest and pretend he’s giving us good entertainment.

Seriously, this product is pure garbage, wish someone competent was in charge…
RE: I don’t think this will be an easy rebuild, and someone other than  
Scooter185 : 7/24/2021 9:54 pm : link
In comment 15312478 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
Cricket players will be brought in for their perfect launch angles.


We already have players swinging at pitches that bounce
RE: I don’t think this will be an easy rebuild, and someone other than  
rich in DC : 7/24/2021 10:11 pm : link
In comment 15312478 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
Cashman has to do it. He will give Sanchez, Judge, and maybe Torres long term contracts. He’s stubborn and averse to making the tough decisions.

Judge has to be traded. Stanton’s presence demands so. Cashman needs to pay the price for that mistake. Plus I don’t think giving Judge a 7 year contract is a wise decision either.

Move Torres to 2nd, if not this year at least next year. Promote Peraza to AAA and give him a shot next year at SS. We need to see if he’s the SS of the future so we know what to do with Volpe.

Stick Florial at CF and be done with it. Hicks can man LF next year until Dominguez or Pereira/Alcantera is ready.

I know we’d be selling low, but I have really no use for Frazier, Voit, and Andujar. I have seen enough.

Sanchez I’d bring back, but on a prove it deal. Wouldn’t be opposed to a lefty hitting defense oriented catcher either, until one of the gazillion draft picks or IFA’s materializes.

See if you can trade Chappy, Green and Britton. Give the home grown pitchers a chance. Make Loaisiga the closer.

Fire the entire major and minor league coaching staffs. Revamp the scouting dept while you are at it. Boone is a goner for sure, throw money at Cash from Tampa.

Or just let Cashman go.

Obviously none of those things are happening, Cashman will be tasked with the rebuild. Gallo is sure to make an appearance soon. Cricket players will be brought in for their perfect launch angles. Hal will adjust prices to compensate for the waning interest and pretend he’s giving us good entertainment.

Seriously, this product is pure garbage, wish someone competent was in charge…


There is SO much WRONG with this post that all I can add is just say no this this approach. Next.
I'm not entirely sure, but it seems  
rnargi : 7/24/2021 10:57 pm : link
They've already torn it down and this is what's left.
Haha, don't you get tired of defending Cashman and the Yanks all the  
Jim in Hoboken : 7/25/2021 9:09 am : link
time? Are you happy with this year, with one WS in 20 years? It's as if you were given a Harvard education and are happy working an at middling accountant firm. Cashman should be giving us so much more with the resources at his disposal.

This team is so infuriating to watch that I want significatn changes at the major league level to the roster and coaching staff.

They obviously went through a shake-up to the minor league coaching staff recently, but it's been one year and prospects are just prospects.

The point is, Cashman has failed to build a consistent minor league system for years, this year's crop is still ways away and not in time to save this disaster of a major league roster, which of course falls on his shoulder as well.
Good discussion - ( New Window )
Overall, I think Cashman is a good GM.  
Matt M. : 7/25/2021 1:11 pm : link
But, every step of the way there have been excuses for him. First, it was the team and system he inherited. Then it was the Tampa people. Now it's that he can't go over the luxury tax threshold....but, he's already spent over $200M this year.

The bottom line is this is his team and organization now and it has been for several years. So, if you want to give him a pass on the luxury tax threshold, that's one thing. But, the horrible minors is on him. The issue isn't that the team isn't likely to win the WS for many people. It's that this is a $200M+ roster that is not playing better than a mediocre level all season. The issue is that their analytics have not only left them falling short in the post season, but leave them as a limited team in the regular season now, when there are injuries and/or guys aren't performing up to an acceptable level. And, with no viable options behind them this is what you got.

And for me, that issue is not limited to the offense. Their pitching has had a ton of holes for years. One ace and a good back of the bullpen guy or 2 doesn't make for a good staff.
How do you construct a team  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 7/25/2021 1:12 pm : link
Full of RH hitters with the short porch in Right???

Injuries have killed the pitching staff all year long. Britton and O’day gone most of the year .. They haven’t their matchups because of it.

They lack speed and have zero clutch players with DLM being terrible this year with Risp.
RE: How do you construct a team  
Matt M. : 7/25/2021 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15312711 Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) said:
Quote:
Full of RH hitters with the short porch in Right???

Injuries have killed the pitching staff all year long. Britton and O’day gone most of the year .. They haven’t their matchups because of it.

They lack speed and have zero clutch players with DLM being terrible this year with Risp.
The lack of LH hitter is the biggest ? to me. Outside of the switch hitting Hicks, their regular lineup had none. That is ridiculous. At least when Judge is hitting, he goes the other way a lot and with power . Sanchez to a lesser degree. But, no LH bats is a travesty...although they do have Gardner, who has been past his prime for more than a couple of years.
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