We're going on almost two years of madness worldwide. This shit is outta hand for the normal citizen.
Imagine having the weight of the country on your shoulders and you're 24.
Sorry, but I have a ton of sympathy for these young athletes.
100% - She's been under this pressure for far too long. Cumulative effect and I wonder if she would have retire from competition last year had the games been last year. I'll bet this last year was not in her plans.
I assume she has the money and support system needed to take time off to get the help she needs. Those factors are huge and put her ahead of most people.
If that means never returning to this kind of spotlight, then so be it. She’s young and can switch careers or take a less pressure role related to gymnastics.
I went through a real tough stretch this spring and needed to take time off to get therapy. I didn’t face near the pressure she has. Can’t imagine the kind of pressure she faces while being that young.
I really hope she is able to get through whatever she is going through and you can’t help but speculate it is related to that atrocious human. That said, I really hope she looks back on this decision in a positive way and not something that she regrets which in turn makes it that much worse.
ripped into her during yesterdays show pretty much saying what if Arod or Jeter said No I am taking myself out of the game during say ganme 7 of the world series with the game on the line.
You never know what people are going through. These athletes have so much pressure on them and she is already well known and has the weight of the country on her shoulders.
ripped into her during yesterdays show pretty much saying what if Arod or Jeter said No I am taking myself out of the game during say ganme 7 of the world series with the game on the line.
You never know what people are going through. These athletes have so much pressure on them and she is already well known and has the weight of the country on her shoulders.
Her sport is completely different and if she isn't focused, she could easily break her neck. My wife used to compete in gymnastics at a high level and thinks Biles' has a case of the "twistees". Basically her timing's off and her spatial awareness during the flips/twists is gone. Happens all the time, but can take weeks to work through.
If you want a baseball analogy, it's like Knoblauch getting the yips, except when he air mails it, he just gets heckled. If Biles overrotates on a flip on beam, she breaks her leg (or worse).
i thought i couldnt believe she quit on her team and i thiught it was frustration from not doing well during qualifying..
but once you watch it you can see she shouldnt of been out there, she could of really hurt herself during that vault...she had no idea where she was midway through her jump..
ripped into her during yesterdays show pretty much saying what if Arod or Jeter said No I am taking myself out of the game during say ganme 7 of the world series with the game on the line.
You never know what people are going through. These athletes have so much pressure on them and she is already well known and has the weight of the country on her shoulders.
Her sport is completely different and if she isn't focused, she could easily break her neck. My wife used to compete in gymnastics at a high level and thinks Biles' has a case of the "twistees". Basically her timing's off and her spatial awareness during the flips/twists is gone. Happens all the time, but can take weeks to work through.
If you want a baseball analogy, it's like Knoblauch getting the yips, except when he air mails it, he just gets heckled. If Biles overrotates on a flip on beam, she breaks her leg (or worse).
I give anyone credit for going out there to perform. I dont blame her at all. She did what was best for her and her team and she can go to perform another day.
she was abused by her trainer, she is probably the most decorated gymnast ever, her child hood was already a hard one but she did it with loving support.
So now, she doesnt owe anyone an answer. She is the one taking the brunt of this all. No one but her. the country she is representing counted on her but it shouldnt be just on her.
That being said, i just hope other athletes get the help they need first instead of putting themselves in that type of situation. Also, i hope other athletes dont use "mental health" as an excuse if it really isnt. I mean if you legit have that issue, thats fine but if you are fucking up and know you are going to lose, dont use that as an excuse as it will hurt the others with the actual issue. Though i couldnt under the basketball using that reason. They suck.
she was abused by her trainer, she is probably the most decorated gymnast ever, her child hood was already a hard one but she did it with loving support.
So now, she doesnt owe anyone an answer. She is the one taking the brunt of this all. No one but her. the country she is representing counted on her but it shouldnt be just on her.
That being said, i just hope other athletes get the help they need first instead of putting themselves in that type of situation. Also, i hope other athletes dont use "mental health" as an excuse if it really isnt. I mean if you legit have that issue, thats fine but if you are fucking up and know you are going to lose, dont use that as an excuse as it will hurt the others with the actual issue. Though i couldnt under the basketball using that reason. They suck.
the issues impacting her and finds herself in a better place in time. Her speaking out on this will probably help someone struggling now and may make is easier for them to get help.
Very strange Olympics and her not having her grandparents with her has probably had a huge impact. Of course some will criticize this and I hope they are able to better educate themselves on the difficulties of any type of mental struggle.
It wouldn't have been a good look to bail on the team portion
When you are not in form in gymnastics it can be very dangerous.Biles has not been in form for months now struggling to regain ie.She is in training everyday in hopes that her form returns.The pressure on her to perform at her best is monumental something none of us has ever experienced.
The negative criticism is uncalled for and should stop. Alot of ignorant people in the world.
My wish for Biles is for the fun and joy of performing her sport to return for her regardless of her form.
I have no idea what kind of pressure she was dealing with. Mental health is definitely a real topic in this social media age.
But at the same time, pressure is a part of athletic competition when you're at such a high level. I'm disappointed that she basically quit because her performance wasn't up to her expectations. I wanted to see the GOAT do GOAT things. I know that she is just a 24 year old kid but I wish she showed more resilience. I know I sound like a douche for saying it but she was the #1 person I was ready to see during these Olympics and she quit because she struggled, or at least it seems that way. I hope she gets in the right mental state but this was disappointing.
It has to be so hard to pull yourself out of the thing...
you have trained for 5 years for. Feel really bad for her.
Wish i could be surprised by the criticism but at this point id be surprised if there wasnt a large amount of people ripping her up. Like they have any clue what she is dealing with or the type of pressure she is under.
Would love for her to be able to compete in the individual events next week. Would be such a shame for her to miss out on competing completely, but its only a week, not sure its enough time.
I have no idea what kind of pressure she was dealing with. Mental health is definitely a real topic in this social media age.
But at the same time, pressure is a part of athletic competition when you're at such a high level. I'm disappointed that she basically quit because her performance wasn't up to her expectations. I wanted to see the GOAT do GOAT things. I know that she is just a 24 year old kid but I wish she showed more resilience. I know I sound like a douche for saying it but she was the #1 person I was ready to see during these Olympics and she quit because she struggled, or at least it seems that way. I hope she gets in the right mental state but this was disappointing.
I doubt this had anything to do with her inability to handle the pressure. Like I said earlier, this is more like a bad slump or a baseball player getting the "yips" except the consequences to screwing up a triple flip off vault can deadly.
And I agree with Rick, I think she's been dealing with this for a while and tried to fight through it. I watched the US trials and she was definitely "off" during them, but the skills she does are so much more difficult than everyone else's that she still easily qualified.
the argument that "she could hurt herself if she's not right mentally" is a good one. So I'll concede that "quitting" is different than an athlete from another less dangerous sport doing a similar thing.
Still sucks we don't get to see her do her thing. I was so excited to see her. I wish she was able to figure it out before it got to this point.
Her entire career is a display of resiliency. There’s physical consequences not being mentally there, I don’t blame her. Wanting to see her do goat things is fine but it’s not the end all be all.
ripped into her during yesterdays show pretty much saying what if Arod or Jeter said No I am taking myself out of the game during say ganme 7 of the world series with the game on the line.
You never know what people are going through. These athletes have so much pressure on them and she is already well known and has the weight of the country on her shoulders.
This is closer to when CC stepped away to deal with his drinking, not just someone saying I can't go today.
You could see it in the prelim round. My wife even commented about how you could see the pressure she was under and hoped she'd be ok.
the argument that "she could hurt herself if she's not right mentally" is a good one. So I'll concede that "quitting" is different than an athlete from another less dangerous sport doing a similar thing.
Still sucks we don't get to see her do her thing. I was so excited to see her. I wish she was able to figure it out before it got to this point.
Couldn't agree more. She was doing skills no one had ever done and USAG actually tried to ban them because they claimed they were too dangerous (for women).
Her entire career is a display of resiliency. There’s physical consequences not being mentally there, I don’t blame her. Wanting to see her do goat things is fine but it’s not the end all be all.
Look, I agree about the potential serious health risks of gymnastics being dangerous if your head isn't right.
But I do think this is a situation that would be viewed differently had it happened to a male athlete instead of a lovable tiny girl. I think Michael Kay is a douche, I can't stand him. But his general point about the way we would treat other athletes is fair imo.
the argument that "she could hurt herself if she's not right mentally" is a good one. So I'll concede that "quitting" is different than an athlete from another less dangerous sport doing a similar thing.
Still sucks we don't get to see her do her thing. I was so excited to see her. I wish she was able to figure it out before it got to this point.
Couldn't agree more. She was doing skills no one had ever done and USAG actually tried to ban them because they claimed they were too dangerous (for women).
Yea, I thought that was an incredible story when I read about it. I can’t remember reading something like that about an athlete before. She was so alien that she was putting other gymnasts in danger if they tried the same thing. Just an unreal story. That’s one of the main reasons I was looking forward to seeing her.
but i don't think she should be lauded for essentially quitting on her team. is quitting almost always a mental health issue? maybe. does that make it okay? not in my book - and reasonable minds can disagree on this.
let me put it this way - if you're the girl who dedicated your entire life to making the team and were the last girl cut and you saw Biles walk away mid-Olympics because "the pressure was too great," you would be pretty upset right now and you would have a legitimate beef. biles should have known better than most what the scene was going to be like and if she had any inkling that it was going to be too much (and it seems she did), then she should have walked away long before the middle of the competition.
i hope biles gets the help she needs, but i'm not seeing a hero here. she's a hero for what she has accomplished, but not for this.
Rick Ankiel losing the ability to throw a strike suddenly...best thing for him was to stop pitching and stop hurting his teams chances. Simone recognized it herself and stepped back. I was very disappoint u til I watched it and the was proud of the Silver...
Now the one difference between Ankiel analogy..imagine if losing that ability and continuing to pitch could potentially paralyze you.. that's why this is the right move.
So...did we rip on Ankiel for being soft? No..we just didn't discuss it as the mental health issue it clearly was...
Her entire career is a display of resiliency. There’s physical consequences not being mentally there, I don’t blame her. Wanting to see her do goat things is fine but it’s not the end all be all.
Look, I agree about the potential serious health risks of gymnastics being dangerous if your head isn't right.
But I do think this is a situation that would be viewed differently had it happened to a male athlete instead of a lovable tiny girl. I think Michael Kay is a douche, I can't stand him. But his general point about the way we would treat other athletes is fair imo.
I mentioned in another thread about how a QB would be looked at if he didn't take the field due to mental health issues, especially if it was a playoff game.
Because mental illness is still misunderstood, you will see these types of events just be polarizing more than learning examples. Trolls on social media ripping Biles will be offset on the other side by people claiming Biles is a role model and such a strong woman for taking the events off, when the reality is in the middle. No competitor has to take the field. And when they don't, there will be consequences both intended and otherwise.
We've had injured Giants shit on by their own fans as being fragile and weak. What will the take be if they sit out for mental health reasons? I mean, we've had people wish death on Eli and assorted others in game threads - and that was a player who wasn't hurt and out there competing - what will the take be for a voluntary opt-out?
I hope the Biles situation helps put a spotlight on mental health, but I already see it being more of a platform for division than anything else. Anyone questioning her is being labeled negatively as others rush to sing her praises and talk about her being a role model. I'm not sure why this dichotomy has to happen in everything today.
Rick Ankiel losing the ability to throw a strike suddenly...best thing for him was to stop pitching and stop hurting his teams chances. Simone recognized it herself and stepped back. I was very disappoint u til I watched it and the was proud of the Silver...
Now the one difference between Ankiel analogy..imagine if losing that ability and continuing to pitch could potentially paralyze you.. that's why this is the right move.
So...did we rip on Ankiel for being soft? No..we just didn't discuss it as the mental health issue it clearly was...
Ohh the other difference is if Ankiel was already considered the greatest pitcher of all time and literally had nothing left to prove to anyone.
Sorry to disrupt the virtue signalling circle jerk here
Her entire career is a display of resiliency. There’s physical consequences not being mentally there, I don’t blame her. Wanting to see her do goat things is fine but it’s not the end all be all.
Look, I agree about the potential serious health risks of gymnastics being dangerous if your head isn't right.
But I do think this is a situation that would be viewed differently had it happened to a male athlete instead of a lovable tiny girl. I think Michael Kay is a douche, I can't stand him. But his general point about the way we would treat other athletes is fair imo.
I mentioned in another thread about how a QB would be looked at if he didn't take the field due to mental health issues, especially if it was a playoff game.
Because mental illness is still misunderstood, you will see these types of events just be polarizing more than learning examples. Trolls on social media ripping Biles will be offset on the other side by people claiming Biles is a role model and such a strong woman for taking the events off, when the reality is in the middle. No competitor has to take the field. And when they don't, there will be consequences both intended and otherwise.
We've had injured Giants shit on by their own fans as being fragile and weak. What will the take be if they sit out for mental health reasons? I mean, we've had people wish death on Eli and assorted others in game threads - and that was a player who wasn't hurt and out there competing - what will the take be for a voluntary opt-out?
I hope the Biles situation helps put a spotlight on mental health, but I already see it being more of a platform for division than anything else. Anyone questioning her is being labeled negatively as others rush to sing her praises and talk about her being a role model. I'm not sure why this dichotomy has to happen in everything today.
Well said and I couldn't agree more.
All the over analysis by all the talking heads and every keyboard warrior makes everyone feel like they have to pick a hill and die on it trying to defend it.
It's the world we live in now.
RE: Sorry to disrupt the virtue signalling circle jerk here
but i don't think she should be lauded for essentially quitting on her team. is quitting almost always a mental health issue? maybe. does that make it okay? not in my book - and reasonable minds can disagree on this.
let me put it this way - if you're the girl who dedicated your entire life to making the team and were the last girl cut and you saw Biles walk away mid-Olympics because "the pressure was too great," you would be pretty upset right now and you would have a legitimate beef. biles should have known better than most what the scene was going to be like and if she had any inkling that it was going to be too much (and it seems she did), then she should have walked away long before the middle of the competition.
i hope biles gets the help she needs, but i'm not seeing a hero here. she's a hero for what she has accomplished, but not for this.
You said it better (and more sympathetically) than I did, good post
I'm not sure why this dichotomy has to happen in everything today.
Because compromise has become a 4 letter word. Now that everyone has a platform to voice their opinion (twitter, etc) everyone believes their opinion is the correct one and any contrary opinions are wrong. Nuance be damned.
Take what happens here with DJ threads and extrapolate that out to this, or politics, or whatever debate you can think of. And then add in about 10000x more hatred for people with that opposing opinion
Her entire career is a display of resiliency. There’s physical consequences not being mentally there, I don’t blame her. Wanting to see her do goat things is fine but it’s not the end all be all.
Look, I agree about the potential serious health risks of gymnastics being dangerous if your head isn't right.
But I do think this is a situation that would be viewed differently had it happened to a male athlete instead of a lovable tiny girl. I think Michael Kay is a douche, I can't stand him. But his general point about the way we would treat other athletes is fair imo.
I can only speak for myself but I wouldn’t. I’ve changed my views on sports as I’ve gotten older. They aren’t that serious and my expectations from them are entertainment only, and I certainly don’t want anyone to get hurt or suffer so I can be entertained (outside of combat sports).
We have a warped view of sports as a society, it’s really odd to me.
but i don't think she should be lauded for essentially quitting on her team. is quitting almost always a mental health issue? maybe. does that make it okay? not in my book - and reasonable minds can disagree on this.
let me put it this way - if you're the girl who dedicated your entire life to making the team and were the last girl cut and you saw Biles walk away mid-Olympics because "the pressure was too great," you would be pretty upset right now and you would have a legitimate beef. biles should have known better than most what the scene was going to be like and if she had any inkling that it was going to be too much (and it seems she did), then she should have walked away long before the middle of the competition.
i hope biles gets the help she needs, but i'm not seeing a hero here. she's a hero for what she has accomplished, but not for this.
You said it better (and more sympathetically) than I did, good post
How would you feel if she fought through this and competed and a week or so later she is found dead from a apparent suicide? Then a close teammate later says she was really struggling for a while.
The message does not need to be she is a hero but simply that her example makes it easier for someone else struggling to ask for help.
Rick Ankiel losing the ability to throw a strike suddenly...best thing for him was to stop pitching and stop hurting his teams chances. Simone recognized it herself and stepped back. I was very disappoint u til I watched it and the was proud of the Silver...
Now the one difference between Ankiel analogy..imagine if losing that ability and continuing to pitch could potentially paralyze you.. that's why this is the right move.
So...did we rip on Ankiel for being soft? No..we just didn't discuss it as the mental health issue it clearly was...
That's actually a great analogy and while there was no risk to Ankiel, the batters were in serious jeopardy the way he was pitching.
We've had injured Giants shit on by their own fans as being fragile and weak. What will the take be if they sit out for mental health reasons? I mean, we've had people wish death on Eli and assorted others in game threads - and that was a player who wasn't hurt and out there competing - what will the take be for a voluntary opt-out?
We don't need to wonder what it would be like. Just look at Kyrie Irving or Aaron Hicks.
but i don't think she should be lauded for essentially quitting on her team. is quitting almost always a mental health issue? maybe. does that make it okay? not in my book - and reasonable minds can disagree on this.
let me put it this way - if you're the girl who dedicated your entire life to making the team and were the last girl cut and you saw Biles walk away mid-Olympics because "the pressure was too great," you would be pretty upset right now and you would have a legitimate beef. biles should have known better than most what the scene was going to be like and if she had any inkling that it was going to be too much (and it seems she did), then she should have walked away long before the middle of the competition.
i hope biles gets the help she needs, but i'm not seeing a hero here. she's a hero for what she has accomplished, but not for this.
You said it better (and more sympathetically) than I did, good post
How would you feel if she fought through this and competed and a week or so later she is found dead from a apparent suicide? Then a close teammate later says she was really struggling for a while.
The message does not need to be she is a hero but simply that her example makes it easier for someone else struggling to ask for help.
I'll admit that I was both an asshole in my first post, and that there's no doubt more complexities that I or any of us are aware of.
But to your question - if she was struggling for a while, why is she even there?
"What if's" are particularly useful. Playing that game - what if six months from now she's found dead of a suicide? Michael Phelps has talked openly about his depression and how being in the pool and competing helped him. Each person is different.
RE: Sorry to disrupt the virtue signalling circle jerk here
said injuries are a cancer and we are talking sometimes about people with some pretty serious physical stuff being denigrated for not being on the field. But he was a sacred cow here to many who was above criticism. Wonder what his take on this situation would be and people’s reaction to him if he said similar things about mental issues.
but i don't think she should be lauded for essentially quitting on her team. is quitting almost always a mental health issue? maybe. does that make it okay? not in my book - and reasonable minds can disagree on this.
let me put it this way - if you're the girl who dedicated your entire life to making the team and were the last girl cut and you saw Biles walk away mid-Olympics because "the pressure was too great," you would be pretty upset right now and you would have a legitimate beef. biles should have known better than most what the scene was going to be like and if she had any inkling that it was going to be too much (and it seems she did), then she should have walked away long before the middle of the competition.
i hope biles gets the help she needs, but i'm not seeing a hero here. she's a hero for what she has accomplished, but not for this.
You said it better (and more sympathetically) than I did, good post
How would you feel if she fought through this and competed and a week or so later she is found dead from a apparent suicide? Then a close teammate later says she was really struggling for a while.
The message does not need to be she is a hero but simply that her example makes it easier for someone else struggling to ask for help.
Exactly. Our society on a whole is very much influenced by the machismo mindset, and showing signs of "weakness" brings derision, let alone asking for help. Hopefully this is a stepping stone towards normalizing asking for help and not being afraid to look after one's own mental well-being
Nor do I see the need to laud her for this. I don't know what it's like to be in her position, but I have had to work under serious pressure on occasion and I didn't have the luxury of excusing myself, so there are limits to my sympathy. Either way, doesn't matter - she's an alltime great and will continue to be known as that regardless of what happened this year.
Nor do I see the need to laud her for this. I don't know what it's like to be in her position, but I have had to work under serious pressure on occasion and I didn't have the luxury of excusing myself, so there are limits to my sympathy. Either way, doesn't matter - she's an alltime great and will continue to be known as that regardless of what happened this year.
I think that's very well said. We have no middle ground in public opinion anymore - it is all about picking a side and beating it to death.
RE: RE: Sorry to disrupt the virtue signalling circle jerk here
so should Osaka. Look at all the hate they are getting. That tells me society has a lot of maturing to do and the only way that's going to happen is education.
really far to one side. So either she is a hero role model or she is a loser piece of shit who cant handle pressure. I completely agree that she doesnt need to be lauded for this (and its not like she is asking to be treated as a hero) but she also shouldnt be ripped for this either.
the better question is why does it bother you? Why have we lost the ability to just ignore or not be bothered by things we don't agree with?
If her doing what she did helps a kid that struggling, or inspires someone on the brink of killing themselves to take a step back and know others are going through something similar, doesn't that matter more? Why is your entertainment so important? And I bet most of the people criticizing her are those that mock the olympics and don't watch women's gymnastics.
Nor do I see the need to laud her for this. I don't know what it's like to be in her position, but I have had to work under serious pressure on occasion and I didn't have the luxury of excusing myself, so there are limits to my sympathy. Either way, doesn't matter - she's an alltime great and will continue to be known as that regardless of what happened this year.
I'll admit that I was both an asshole in my first post, and that there's no doubt more complexities that I or any of us are aware of.
But to your question - if she was struggling for a while, why is she even there?
She was probably hoping to work through the issues between the US trials and now. And even with her struggles at the US trials, she still easily qualified and finished 2nd overall.
so should Osaka. Look at all the hate they are getting. That tells me society has a lot of maturing to do and the only way that's going to happen is education.
It is such a shame that people cant be bothered to take this chance to educate themselves. This isnt directed at anyone here but all over the internet you hear people say "I dont deal with mental health issues but..(insert there opinion about it)" or flat out people saying they dont understand a lot of mental health issues but again they are going to give you all their thoughts. Maybe instead of people being so quick to defend, trash, etc... they take the chance to educate themselves a bit more.
the better question is why does it bother you? Why have we lost the ability to just ignore or not be bothered by things we don't agree with?
Reasonable question, but in the end we're just fans discussing (and arguing a bit) on a message board.
Can't speak for others, but I've always loved the women's gymnastics, as I do most Olympic sports. Was genuinely bummed to hear this news, but it was also notable how off her game she was.
To take a step back and look at my own perspective - I do believe she was one of the last remaining women on the team who went through the sexual assualt saga - now that was heartbreaking, and worthy of the utmost sympathy. I can fully admit I have no idea what it feels like to go through that, or to feel the pressure of competing anywhere close to the level she and all these athletes are.
As I said before, what bothers me more is when something becomes the automatic opinion we're required to take, that's what I'm arguing against.
Can and should I be more sympathetic about this situation? OK, fair. But i also don;t have to like the fact she quit on her team
the better question is why does it bother you? Why have we lost the ability to just ignore or not be bothered by things we don't agree with?
Reasonable question, but in the end we're just fans discussing (and arguing a bit) on a message board.
Can't speak for others, but I've always loved the women's gymnastics, as I do most Olympic sports. Was genuinely bummed to hear this news, but it was also notable how off her game she was.
To take a step back and look at my own perspective - I do believe she was one of the last remaining women on the team who went through the sexual assualt saga - now that was heartbreaking, and worthy of the utmost sympathy. I can fully admit I have no idea what it feels like to go through that, or to feel the pressure of competing anywhere close to the level she and all these athletes are.
As I said before, what bothers me more is when something becomes the automatic opinion we're required to take, that's what I'm arguing against.
Can and should I be more sympathetic about this situation? OK, fair. But i also don;t have to like the fact she quit on her team
Your penultimate sentence is what scares so many potential good posters from just lurking.
when i think its up to them to decide on that. And judging by their support of her and Bile's staying to cheer them on, I don't think "quit" is the correct definition.
"Having to put that much pressure on her to carry the team to gold, it's not fair," Biles' former teammate Laurie Hernandez said. "This is a team of four, not a team of one."
"I know that all of these athletes dream of this moment for their whole entire lives, and I'm just completely devastated," Raisman said of her teammate. "I am obviously so worried and just hoping that Simone is OK."
"[Biles] is not only focused on being the greatest athlete in the world and then minutes later she's putting on a diplomat suit and talking about the politics of the sport," he told BuzzFeed News. "For any athlete at any age, that's complete overload."
"We really don't know exactly how many Olympic athletes typically struggle with mental health issues largely due to the mental health stigma that still exists in sports," Suzanne Potts, director of Athletes for Hope told BuzzFeed News. "We do know that 1 in 5 adults struggle with their mental health, and it’s likely that the numbers are higher in elite athletes."
with Biles or Osaka pulling out of events the way they have who the fuck am I to question them.
They got to their levels of acclaim because they achieved and earned it.
What I have an issue with is the people who hail them as heroic for pulling out of events due to mental health.
It's not heroic any more than it is cowardly.
just leave them alone, let them heal, but don't make them "brave" for it.
some day the stigma of mental issue will be gone just like the first "x" person to do something. So I hate the vitriol spewed at these young athletes. But I also think some people swing too far the other way.
had she continued playing, she likely would have cost her team the silver medal.
Michael Kay's A-Rod/Jeter analogy is bad. A better analogy is an aging HOF starting pitcher going in game 7, not having his best stuff, getting hit, and then having the maturity and humility to allow the coach to pull him early to still give his team a chance to win. We would all think that takes guts, and what she did takes guts. (And that's setting aside the physical and mental health issues, which I think are super legit.)
the better question is why does it bother you? Why have we lost the ability to just ignore or not be bothered by things we don't agree with?
I do think this goes both ways though. One question is why do we have to laud or decry? Why can't it just be an athlete that has made a choice that is essential a neutral impact to everyone who isn't associated directly with the event. Why is there praise and encouragement and why is there hate and derision?
My reaction was "That's too bad. I hope she'll be alright". Not sure why it has to go much deeper.
I'm also not a big fan of talking about how her influence impacts others. One can easily make a case that her competing as the best gymnast in the world has impacted many more young athletes than any message she may provide on mental health. But again - not sure why a case has to be made at all.
pretty simple, because most people don't change until things get uncomfortable. People are acting like lunatics about this Biles situation - that tells me they aren't ready for anything that disrupts the status quo.
The world is now almost exclusively black and white, all nuance has been lost. Biles is either a hero or a quitter, no room for discussion. So until that changes you are going to see the extremes and I'll support the hero angle over the quitter angle.
"Simone Biles won nationals w/broken toes in both feet, worlds w/a kidney stone, and has carried the burden of being a face of sexual assault survivors as a national institution failed to support them"
The idea that she isn't tough or resilient is unsupported by everything she has accomplished in her career.
What she does requires total conviction and confidence because there is such a large margin for error and injury, and if she is dealing with something mentally where she doesn't feel right up in the air, or got the "twisties" as they seem to call it, the game is already over. She would cost her team in performance, and she would open herself up to severe injury.
Some on here are acting as if this was her plan all along. It probably kills her that she did all this training, fought back the internal pressures and anxiety along the way, only to fly to Tokyo in a Covid Olympics, bond with her teammates, only to have to pull out at the last minute because she didn't feel right. It would have been much, much easier for her to pull out well before this moment
She took a spot from someone who could have competed
She is 24 years old and took endorsements as well and she could have retired if she was having misgivings about this and was not there mentally. Moreover, she should have done this weeks ago. I don't think someone pulling out for mental health issues is a problem and would argue that it could be just as debilitating as a physical injury, it just seems to me the timing was wrong. Mental health issues rarely sneak up on a person, they are conditions that progressively get worse, if she had some doubts she should have done this last week or the week before. I am not going to make her out a hero for this and I am not going to make her out a villain either. But, I do think that this could have been handled better. This was a team sport in the biggest venue in the world for athletes who have trained their whole life for this moment, it just seems to me to be handled poorly.
waging wars against the things in their own daily lives and will never be the lead on NBC nightly news as a portrait of heroism. That's fine, but I think the people who insist that this girl needs to be revered for her decision to withdraw from the Olympics lack perspective.
more information will need to be known. My daughter was a gymnast and she said last night that if she has the "twisties", it is really tough to overcome. That's probably what she's been working through - and since it isn't a physical issue, it is considered mental. Trying to overcome that is natural, so the timing is fine. It just happened on the biggest stage
I normally wouldn't post on things like this becuase no one is going to change there mind one way or another.
Here it goes.
She was depended on to be the shinning light for the team. She failed at that for the competition. So yes, it can and should be said she failed.
She did what she felt was right for her own well being. No one should slame her for doing what she felt was necessary for herself and her team. She should also not be idolized for the decision.
People are going to feel let down. People are going to feel she showed great personal awareness. But what matters most is she gets through this a better person.
"Simone Biles won nationals w/broken toes in both feet, worlds w/a kidney stone, and has carried the burden of being a face of sexual assault survivors as a national institution failed to support them"
The idea that she isn't tough or resilient is unsupported by everything she has accomplished in her career.
What she does requires total conviction and confidence because there is such a large margin for error and injury, and if she is dealing with something mentally where she doesn't feel right up in the air, or got the "twisties" as they seem to call it, the game is already over. She would cost her team in performance, and she would open herself up to severe injury.
Some on here are acting as if this was her plan all along. It probably kills her that she did all this training, fought back the internal pressures and anxiety along the way, only to fly to Tokyo in a Covid Olympics, bond with her teammates, only to have to pull out at the last minute because she didn't feel right. It would have been much, much easier for her to pull out well before this moment
I don't think whether she is tough or not is the issue, it is how do this responsibly. And, we are just taking her word about the mental issues, has she been previously diagnosed with something such as anxiety or depression or was this self-doubt. Many of us have self-doubt on our jobs and have to continue doing them others have debilitating mental health issues such as anxiety and depression and are every bit as sick as someone who has a physical ailment. There are processes for doing things and it was the way this was done that is bothersome to me. She is not a hero for pulling out an hour before a competition like some are making her out to be.
Nor do I see the need to laud her for this. I don't know what it's like to be in her position, but I have had to work under serious pressure on occasion and I didn't have the luxury of excusing myself, so there are limits to my sympathy. Either way, doesn't matter - she's an alltime great and will continue to be known as that regardless of what happened this year.
Agreed.
and the reason many are calling her brave or lauding her for this
is precisely because of the stigma still attached to mental health.
It's because so many attach mental health issues with weakness or a lack of resiliency/heart that so often it goes untreated and turns to a source of shame, only exacerbating the problem and furthering the stigma.
Would I have preferred that Biles were healthy, and dominated the gymnastics world yet again? Of course. But given the situation she then found herself, it took courage to step away and make not only the safer decision for her, but also one that was less selfish.
We love to celebrate the idea of "gutting it out" when an athlete has an injury because we love to see the fight. But it's worth pointing out that gutting it out can also be selfish if the player at less than 100% is a worse option than his healthy backup.
in the world of top end sports. Given the physical risk involved in this sport, this looks more like a F1 driver deciding not to get behind the wheel as opposed to, say, Pippen sitting out that play in the playoffs. I believe Nicki Lauda refused to race once in the 70s due to track conditions when he was neck and neck for the championship with his main rival at the time.
Biles' competing and falling/struggling would not have hurt the team, unless it caused others on the team to lose confidence and subsequently struggle. The only take the top 3 scores for each event so even if Biles was the worst in everything, the team would've been exactly where they were with her skipping things.
As far as people calling Biles "brave", its because she made this decision knowing the backlash she would receive in the twitter world that they feel this way. If people were more sympathetic to what she's dealing with (or 'neutral' as others put it) then it wouldn't require "bravery" for Biles' to withdraw. But that's unfortunately not the world we live in.
RE: and the reason many are calling her brave or lauding her for this
is precisely because of the stigma still attached to mental health.
It's because so many attach mental health issues with weakness or a lack of resiliency/heart that so often it goes untreated and turns to a source of shame, only exacerbating the problem and furthering the stigma.
Would I have preferred that Biles were healthy, and dominated the gymnastics world yet again? Of course. But given the situation she then found herself, it took courage to step away and make not only the safer decision for her, but also one that was less selfish.
We love to celebrate the idea of "gutting it out" when an athlete has an injury because we love to see the fight. But it's worth pointing out that gutting it out can also be selfish if the player at less than 100% is a worse option than his healthy backup.
Ironically, if it was a broken toe or finger, I'm 100% certain Biles' would've 'gutted it out'. You can't just 'gut out' the twisties though when getting lost in the air can result in much worse than a broken toe/finger.
I think this was less mental health issue and more realizing she was
going to cost her teammates a medal. I think saying the individual events were still on the table there is telling. Real mental health issues just don’t resolve like that without some work. I think she, or her team, realized what the optics were going to be there so pulled there as well.
I for one believe it’s a selfless move and never understood why it’s expected and even honorable to go out there when another teammate would give you a better shot. Of course that’s still the case, so it’s just easier to cite mental health issues. If what the poster said about her possibly costing them a medal is accurate.
RE: I think this was less mental health issue and more realizing she was
going to cost her teammates a medal. I think saying the individual events were still on the table there is telling. Real mental health issues just don’t resolve like that without some work. I think she, or her team, realized what the optics were going to be there so pulled there as well.
I for one believe it’s a selfless move and never understood why it’s expected and even honorable to go out there when another teammate would give you a better shot. Of course that’s still the case, so it’s just easier to cite mental health issues. If what the poster said about her possibly costing them a medal is accurate.
My understanding is that they were not able to replace Biles' with the alternate, which meant that they had to use the scores from the other 3 gymnasts no matter what. Usually all 4 would compete each event and then they'd take the top 3 scores.
There are two contrasting extreme responses and they're both wrong, and to be honest I haven't heard/seen much of either.
Will just say that the level of work and difficulty that these athletes has gotten so extreme it makes me sad to think about. I saw a clip yesterday (linked below) comparing gymnastics in the 1950s and today. Seems like as we continue to push the physical limits we're going to see more pressure on the athletes (plus all the social media bs contributing) and the regular and devastating injuries we've seen of late in MLB/NBA/NFL. The athletes are better - but are the sports really better off? Link - ( New Window )
Nor do I see the need to laud her for this. I don't know what it's like to be in her position, but I have had to work under serious pressure on occasion and I didn't have the luxury of excusing myself, so there are limits to my sympathy. Either way, doesn't matter - she's an alltime great and will continue to be known as that regardless of what happened this year.
But did you work under extreme pressure to be the best every day you went to work for years?
I think we all have stressful days, weeks, and even months (hell after 2020 we can add years to that) but the best comparison I can think of is those kids whose parents force them to become doctors or scientists and anything less than top of the class, 5.0GPA, etc is unacceptable.
There's plenty of stories like that with unhappy endings
Nor do I see the need to laud her for this. I don't know what it's like to be in her position, but I have had to work under serious pressure on occasion and I didn't have the luxury of excusing myself, so there are limits to my sympathy. Either way, doesn't matter - she's an alltime great and will continue to be known as that regardless of what happened this year.
Agree 100%.
I don't see the need to shit on her or her legacy. As stated above, my first thought was "Man that sucks for the person who just missed the cut for the team," but if she has no regrets in 10 years then she made the right choice.
I kinda feel like that in order to excel in individual sports
waging wars against the things in their own daily lives and will never be the lead on NBC nightly news as a portrait of heroism. That's fine, but I think the people who insist that this girl needs to be revered for her decision to withdraw from the Olympics lack perspective.
I'm not insisting she needs to be called a hero, I just don't see a problem with it and I'd rather she be called a hero than a loser, because that's what lacks perspective. She also didn't ask to be the lead on the news and likely doesn't want to be so I don't see how that is a factor here when comparing to us little people.
staunch support of either extreme just lends itself to the extreme takes continuing.
Of course it does, but what makes it stop? Be damned if I know. But until we have some reason i'm going to side with the person actually going through something than the mob that wants to tear them down. Sitting in neutral is an option and one i'd normally take, but that gets us nowhere too.
RE: I think this was less mental health issue and more realizing she was
going to cost her teammates a medal. I think saying the individual events were still on the table there is telling. Real mental health issues just don’t resolve like that without some work. I think she, or her team, realized what the optics were going to be there so pulled there as well.
I for one believe it’s a selfless move and never understood why it’s expected and even honorable to go out there when another teammate would give you a better shot. Of course that’s still the case, so it’s just easier to cite mental health issues. If what the poster said about her possibly costing them a medal is accurate.
Thats what some seem to be missing...this wasn't a "felt too much pressure so decided not to participate"...this was a "holy crap I am lost and can't hit any of my routines, I'm going to get hurt or ruin my teammates chances"
There was no way she could have known this months ago, weeks ago, or days ago...
Like I said...did Rick Ankiel know he was going to suddenly have a mental health issue that resulted in an inability to throw a baseball, something he had done his entire life?
Her entire career is a display of resiliency. There’s physical consequences not being mentally there, I don’t blame her. Wanting to see her do goat things is fine but it’s not the end all be all.
Look, I agree about the potential serious health risks of gymnastics being dangerous if your head isn't right.
But I do think this is a situation that would be viewed differently had it happened to a male athlete instead of a lovable tiny girl. I think Michael Kay is a douche, I can't stand him. But his general point about the way we would treat other athletes is fair imo.
I can only speak for myself but I wouldn’t. I’ve changed my views on sports as I’ve gotten older. They aren’t that serious and my expectations from them are entertainment only, and I certainly don’t want anyone to get hurt or suffer so I can be entertained (outside of combat sports).
We have a warped view of sports as a society, it’s really odd to me.
I agree. It's gotten worse and worse. 24 hr news cycle, non stop talkies talking shit about everything from strategy to social media profiles to of course, MONEY. Entire topics start and end and dig in to player salaries because why not? it's provocative. It's also overstated hysterics (cap, etc)
I still say we'd all be better off if professional salaries were kept private. Neither here or there, but the Olympics are a money grab too and there's blood in the water.
I don’t know what’s going on her head, nor what’s it doing to her. But she owes her country nothing. A representative of her country, who was supposed to be helping and protecting her, sexually molested her when she was a child. I really can’t know what that does to a person, but it can’t be anything good. She came here to overcome that, and sadly wasn’t able to. She deserves all our support for the courage in trying to. We owe her.
One former US elite gymnast I talked to said that if it was someone other than Simone Biles who had made that same error, they would have certainly blown a knee, at minimum. Another said if it had happened to her instead of Simone, “I probably would have ended up paralyzed.”
I suggest reading up on all of that - DJM, your post reminded me of it.
Our sports news is designed to breakdown athletes that aren't the best of all time, and its trained fans to act the same way. I don't expect everyone to handle it like Kwame did, but we are going to start to see more of that and its 100% deserved.
staunch support of either extreme just lends itself to the extreme takes continuing.
Of course it does, but what makes it stop? Be damned if I know. But until we have some reason i'm going to side with the person actually going through something than the mob that wants to tear them down. Sitting in neutral is an option and one i'd normally take, but that gets us nowhere too.
That's completely fair. I just happen to believe that the ends of the spectrum are louder than ever and serve no pupose other than to oppose or shout down the other.
there's no reason for the tear down. I can't find a single good reason on why some dude (or many) sitting on his couch needs to troll a top athlete in the world, calling her a failure, loser, anti-american etc. At least with politics both sides have a point they are trying to make. In this case its being a dick just to be a dick with no value add, and no intention of a value add.
UConn, the whole tearing people down thing is strange anyway. Look at the vitriol directed at Aaron Rodgers in various threads. There were even people berating the USWNT this week.
Calling people selfish, losers, quitters, drama queens, etc is such a quick and easy reaction these days.
with Biles decision. It gives some perspective into the intense pressure on athletics and the drive for excellence. In the scheme of things, athletics isn't life or death, so some perspective is helpful. Instances like this can get blown out of proportion to their importance.
This should remind us that there are many young people, in service to us who overcome genuine fears and put themselves directly in clear and present danger... the courage of our military, first responders, law enforcement, etc. is remarkable.
we are talking about something that is incredibly dangerous and she is doing among the most extreme versions of it the world has ever seen.
The many of us who have self doubts in our jobs, and many other athletes in other sports who struggle with pressure, aren't dealing with nearly the physical consequences of being "lost in the air" during elite-level gymnastics.
Take note of all the reactions from competitive gymnasts, ones who actually understand the risks and some of what she had to deal with. They are all messages of empathy.
As to general reactions, many people offered support and are trying to lift her up because that's the sympathetic and decent thing to do when someone is dealing with an issue like she was facing.
But of course, Outrage as a Service sells in this economy. Give people reasons to be angry, keep them angry, and then point them to where they can direct some of that anger. And the more some of these media personalities can tether any piece of news or any public person's action into the larger cultural divide, well then it becomes self-propelling.
not sure I follow. This is completely and utterly different than BBI.
Imagine Biles is Eli Manning, because that's basically the equivalent in terms of Giants fans.
If Eli Manning had decided to step away or quit because of mental health issues, after all he had done for the Giants, do you think people would support him?
This isn't about performance. It's not like Biles is some random gymnast who sucks, kept making the team even though she sucks, and then decided eh I can't go on anymore.
This is the most decorated gymnast in American history. Give it a rest.
for someone like Michael Kay - who is a complete fucking tool - to question an athlete of Biles stature and standing in the gymnastics world is the height of absurdity.
The fact is that none of us have a fucking clue what that young woman is going through. It's her life, her health and her future - not ours - and we're not in a position to judge her in any fashion. The only thing we can do is send some positivity her way - who fucking cares about medals and whatnot if someone is in pain - and hope she finds her way in life. As we're all trying to do.
par for the course for America today. People who are obsessed with having a hot take or being "controversial" and saying things that are completely and utterly ridiculous (and probably don't even mean it) saying their "opinions" on something that if they actually saw that person in real life or were asked to say it to their face, they'd run and hide like a child, or, they'd probably ask for an autograph.
if people are "let down" by Simone Biles, especially after all she's done for the country and all she's given to a sport that literally enabled a rapist, then those people have legit issues with themselves on a personal level. Yeah - I'll say it again - you have legit issues if you feel let down by Simone Biles.
with Biles or Osaka pulling out of events the way they have who the fuck am I to question them.
They got to their levels of acclaim because they achieved and earned it.
What I have an issue with is the people who hail them as heroic for pulling out of events due to mental health.
It's not heroic any more than it is cowardly.
just leave them alone, let them heal, but don't make them "brave" for it.
some day the stigma of mental issue will be gone just like the first "x" person to do something. So I hate the vitriol spewed at these young athletes. But I also think some people swing too far the other way.
Wrong again. This isn't World War II man. This isn't cowardly.
She should be applauded for making that decision. I'm sure there are countless athletes who didn't make that decision that wish they could go back and do it.
waging wars against the things in their own daily lives and will never be the lead on NBC nightly news as a portrait of heroism. That's fine, but I think the people who insist that this girl needs to be revered for her decision to withdraw from the Olympics lack perspective.
with Biles or Osaka pulling out of events the way they have who the fuck am I to question them.
They got to their levels of acclaim because they achieved and earned it.
What I have an issue with is the people who hail them as heroic for pulling out of events due to mental health.
It's not heroic any more than it is cowardly.
just leave them alone, let them heal, but don't make them "brave" for it.
some day the stigma of mental issue will be gone just like the first "x" person to do something. So I hate the vitriol spewed at these young athletes. But I also think some people swing too far the other way.
Wrong again. This isn't World War II man. This isn't cowardly.
She should be applauded for making that decision. I'm sure there are countless athletes who didn't make that decision that wish they could go back and do it.
Apparently you struggle as much with the written word as you do putting together a cogent thought.
I said it's *not* cowardly.
but yes, I also said it's not heroic.
It's not, it's simply a fact, she's not mentally prepared to participate, so don't participate - it's not brave or heroic for her to drop out. that makes no sense. but again for the literacy challenged it's *not* cowardly.
... this drives me nuts the most I think. This woman is performing moves that no one else on the planet has yet. Moves that have paralyzed other people.
You need to be absolutely LASER focused or you could die or suffer serious and significant life altering injury. The fact that someone calls this woman who basically defies death and injury for a living - a coward - really it's laughable.
people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
she stands at the podium with her hand on her heart as the anthem plays. You'd think that would earn her some leeway with the keyboard warriors described above.
she stands at the podium with her hand on her heart as the anthem plays. You'd think that would earn her some leeway with the keyboard warriors described above.
Unfortunately that probably works against her with some as well.
with Biles or Osaka pulling out of events the way they have who the fuck am I to question them.
They got to their levels of acclaim because they achieved and earned it.
What I have an issue with is the people who hail them as heroic for pulling out of events due to mental health.
It's not heroic any more than it is cowardly.
just leave them alone, let them heal, but don't make them "brave" for it.
some day the stigma of mental issue will be gone just like the first "x" person to do something. So I hate the vitriol spewed at these young athletes. But I also think some people swing too far the other way.
Wrong again. This isn't World War II man. This isn't cowardly.
She should be applauded for making that decision. I'm sure there are countless athletes who didn't make that decision that wish they could go back and do it.
Apparently you struggle as much with the written word as you do putting together a cogent thought.
I said it's *not* cowardly.
but yes, I also said it's not heroic.
It's not, it's simply a fact, she's not mentally prepared to participate, so don't participate - it's not brave or heroic for her to drop out. that makes no sense. but again for the literacy challenged it's *not* cowardly.
I would say heroic is subjective. Some may consider her acts heroic.
with Biles or Osaka pulling out of events the way they have who the fuck am I to question them.
They got to their levels of acclaim because they achieved and earned it.
What I have an issue with is the people who hail them as heroic for pulling out of events due to mental health.
It's not heroic any more than it is cowardly.
just leave them alone, let them heal, but don't make them "brave" for it.
some day the stigma of mental issue will be gone just like the first "x" person to do something. So I hate the vitriol spewed at these young athletes. But I also think some people swing too far the other way.
Wrong again. This isn't World War II man. This isn't cowardly.
She should be applauded for making that decision. I'm sure there are countless athletes who didn't make that decision that wish they could go back and do it.
Apparently you struggle as much with the written word as you do putting together a cogent thought.
I said it's *not* cowardly.
but yes, I also said it's not heroic.
It's not, it's simply a fact, she's not mentally prepared to participate, so don't participate - it's not brave or heroic for her to drop out. that makes no sense. but again for the literacy challenged it's *not* cowardly.
I think it's pretty fucking heroic to put all of your issues out for the world to see - and despite all the pressure from fans, your country, USA Gymnastics, sponsors, peers, etc all on the biggest stage of your life - you do what's right for YOU. That's pretty fuckin badass, imo.
An explanation of why Biles was right to do what she did
One wrong move in gymnastics (men’s or women’s) due to a lack of focus or the body not doing what the brain intends for it to do in mid-air is a catastrophic injury waiting to happen The twisties - ( New Window )
No one is saying being a gymnast competing on the largest stage isn't heroic. I don't know if it is or isn't - it's up to everyone to define what they view as heroic I guess.
I am saying pulling out of the Olympics due to not being mentally prepared to participate is not heroic or brave as some people have indicated.
if you think pulling out of an event for those reasons is heroic - then you do you - right back at you slick.
people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
What do you know about old white men, or me for that matter. Biased blank statements like this don't help anything.
No one is saying being a gymnast competing on the largest stage isn't heroic. I don't know if it is or isn't - it's up to everyone to define what they view as heroic I guess.
I am saying pulling out of the Olympics due to not being mentally prepared to participate is not heroic or brave as some people have indicated.
if you think pulling out of an event for those reasons is heroic - then you do you - right back at you slick.
I am not sure your tone is necessary. I believe you stated it as a fact that it was not heroic of Biles. I simply responded that herioc is subjective.
No one is saying being a gymnast competing on the largest stage isn't heroic. I don't know if it is or isn't - it's up to everyone to define what they view as heroic I guess.
I am saying pulling out of the Olympics due to not being mentally prepared to participate is not heroic or brave as some people have indicated.
if you think pulling out of an event for those reasons is heroic - then you do you - right back at you slick.
I am not sure your tone is necessary. I believe you stated it as a fact that it was not heroic of Biles. I simply responded that herioc is subjective.
Ok, sorry, my words are violence, you being able to tolerate them is heroic.
people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
Moms of old white men might be too old to be fetching Mac n cheese. These men are despicable.
people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
What do you know about old white men, or me for that matter. Biased blank statements like this don't help anything.
B I’ve always respected you as a poster, but have to agree with this. The knee jerk reaction to throw out a veiled accusation of racism into a debate like this is BS.
No one is saying being a gymnast competing on the largest stage isn't heroic. I don't know if it is or isn't - it's up to everyone to define what they view as heroic I guess.
I am saying pulling out of the Olympics due to not being mentally prepared to participate is not heroic or brave as some people have indicated.
if you think pulling out of an event for those reasons is heroic - then you do you - right back at you slick.
I am not sure your tone is necessary. I believe you stated it as a fact that it was not heroic of Biles. I simply responded that herioc is subjective.
Ok, sorry, my words are violence, you being able to tolerate them is heroic.
You simply stated it as a fact that Biles was not heroic. It's not a fact either way.
people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
What do you know about old white men, or me for that matter. Biased blank statements like this don't help anything.
B I’ve always respected you as a poster, but have to agree with this. The knee jerk reaction to throw out a veiled accusation of racism into a debate like this is BS.
Racism? I'm not throwing any veiled accusation of anything. You're nuts. I'm speaking on my own experience with social media today. Some of my friends are comprised of dozens of old white men - and on Facebook they're all tripping over themselves criticizing Biles. It's pathetic.
people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
What do you know about old white men, or me for that matter. Biased blank statements like this don't help anything.
B I’ve always respected you as a poster, but have to agree with this. The knee jerk reaction to throw out a veiled accusation of racism into a debate like this is BS.
Racism? I'm not throwing any veiled accusation of anything. You're nuts. I'm speaking on my own experience with social media today. Some of my friends are comprised of dozens of old white men - and on Facebook they're all tripping over themselves criticizing Biles. It's pathetic.
Good to know some of your best friends are old White men. You are truly enlightened.
With race get messy very quickly. Sometimes the race of a person is relevant, other times not. Unless each person truly trusts each other's intentions, bad things will likely happen, unfortunately.
The woman stated that she pulled out because she was not in the right place mentally and could potentially cost her team mates a medal. For an athlete of her caliber to admit that, in it's OWN TERM, is heroic. She took the blame, she realized she was a liability, and she stood down. That takes guts. Period.
"After the vault, 'I’m not in the right headspace,'” Biles said. “I’m not going to lose a medal for this country and for these girls. They worked too hard ... it's not worth it, especially when you have three amazing athletes who can step up."
How is that not "heroic" to the team? Maybe not to someone outside, but let's just say for a minute she tried to gut it out and either hurt herself or cost the team a medal, and then afterwards the public found out she wasn't in a good mental state? She'd have been vilified. The woman has done enough. Frankly, she COULD be commended for saving the girls a chance at the Gold and getting the Silver. And she had their back. Which is another hallmark of a great team mate:
“I’m SO proud of these girls right here. You girls are incredibly brave & talented! I’ll forever be inspired by your determination to not give up and to fight through adversity! They stepped up when I couldn’t. Thanks for being there for me and having my back! Forever love y’all.”
Sounds like a roll model, at the least, if not a hero, to me.
I hope she gets well and knows that the vast majority of us Americans support her.
it took guts. Heroic is not the first thing that comes to mind in regard to what Biles did, however, I certainly wouldn't put my nose up at anyone that feels different.
people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
What do you know about old white men, or me for that matter. Biased blank statements like this don't help anything.
B I’ve always respected you as a poster, but have to agree with this. The knee jerk reaction to throw out a veiled accusation of racism into a debate like this is BS.
Racism? I'm not throwing any veiled accusation of anything. You're nuts. I'm speaking on my own experience with social media today. Some of my friends are comprised of dozens of old white men - and on Facebook they're all tripping over themselves criticizing Biles. It's pathetic.
Fair enough. Same debate is raging over my college buddy group text...I’ve been dodging social media for a variety of reasons lately, but I’m well aware how ugly people get there
I was dickish in my earlier comments, and I won’t hide from that. My first reaction was to be bummed she backed out, and uncomfortable with the rush to cheer her for it. Fact is, for whatever mitigating factors, she quit in the middle of the olympics.
But always willing to at least try and look at my own blind spots. The points several have made here about the risks of gymnastics at this level are very valid. A swimmer suffering from mental difficulties may swim poorly, but they’re not going to break a limb or drown. A gymnast who’s off her game mentally may break her neck
No one is saying being a gymnast competing on the largest stage isn't heroic. I don't know if it is or isn't - it's up to everyone to define what they view as heroic I guess.
I am saying pulling out of the Olympics due to not being mentally prepared to participate is not heroic or brave as some people have indicated.
if you think pulling out of an event for those reasons is heroic - then you do you - right back at you slick.
I am not sure your tone is necessary. I believe you stated it as a fact that it was not heroic of Biles. I simply responded that herioc is subjective.
Ok, sorry, my words are violence, you being able to tolerate them is heroic.
You simply stated it as a fact that Biles was not heroic. It's not a fact either way.
Fair.
It's obviously my opinion. I figured that was blatantly clear and didn't need clarifying.
First off none of this is for any of us to state definitively as fact and none of our opinions matter beyond our own sphere of influence which for most of us is probably limited.
I acknowledge pulling out was the right thing for Biles, especially since mentally she was not prepared and could have injured herself (and hurt the team).
it's completely her right to do so and it's not cowardly or wrong or letting anyone down.
However, I also believe (IMO) it's not heroic. and the takes of some people who think that with all the pressure and weight (and eyes) on her as the best in the world to do what she did is heroic or "badass" seems like a bizarre take.
I can understand the decision, but i view it more as unfortunate and sad, even if I respect it.
Certainly don't see how it's heroic. I bet she wishes she didn't have to pull out of the event, I bet she doesn't think it's heroic, I bet she views it as sad and unfortunate.
but that's obviously my opinion.
RE: RE: I think this was less mental health issue and more realizing she was
going to cost her teammates a medal. I think saying the individual events were still on the table there is telling. Real mental health issues just don’t resolve like that without some work. I think she, or her team, realized what the optics were going to be there so pulled there as well.
I for one believe it’s a selfless move and never understood why it’s expected and even honorable to go out there when another teammate would give you a better shot. Of course that’s still the case, so it’s just easier to cite mental health issues. If what the poster said about her possibly costing them a medal is accurate.
My understanding is that they were not able to replace Biles' with the alternate, which meant that they had to use the scores from the other 3 gymnasts no matter what. Usually all 4 would compete each event and then they'd take the top 3 scores.
Absolutely incorrect.
It's 3 gymnasts per event for all teams and all scores count.
There was an element of self-preservation involved specific to her sport. Athletes in her sport who were forced to compete after they lost their coordination, even a tiny bit, suffered catastrophic injuries either in training or during an event
have a problem with pretty much anyone's opinion on this thread. Everyone has been pretty fair. And learning about the twisties has furthered my personal opinion that Biles did the right thing for herself - and there's nothing wrong with that. And it takes lots of guts to do what she did.
As sports fans, we've seen many instances of athletes throwing in the towel (heck, that's how the term was coined). Whether due to an injury, a mental state, or simply not caring anymore.. the reason doesn't matter. She quit. Big deal.
In quitting, she let some people down. Fans, sponsors, sports broadcasters. Who cares about them. But she also let down her teammates and other gymnasts who may have made the team if she quit prior to making the trip. She also let herself down, because no one wanted her to win medals more than she wanted to win them for herself. I've been to National and Olympic trials myself, and know dozens of Olympians.. they don't give a crap about winning for fans and sponsors. They want to win for themselves and their teammates.
She'll face the demons of letting herself and her teammates down for the rest of her life. All quitters do. Does that make them heroic? No way.
Your last post gives me hope that there are still reasonable people in the world. Kudos to you for opening your mind to change and exercising critical thinking... that's a increasingly rare and welcomed skill!
Heroic feels a little hyperbolic, I think the best description is commendable or admirable.
I’m happy for her, that she had the wherewithal and confidence to step back and not hurt herself physically, and secondarily allow someone to step in and help the team.
It’s like a race car driver pulling out of race when their head isn’t straight. Nothing good comes out of putting yourself at risk. You get your head right, and either get back at it or retire.
Think about the next gymnast that would've made it had Biles made this decision before the Olympics started. She stole that opportunity of a lifetime from someone who busted their tail for it.
I feel for her, but I also feel for the other person.
struggling with the need to label it either heroic or the move of a loser.
It was a personal decision carried out in the public eye, but we are seemingly programmed with having to label everything to fit an opinion.
To me, this was a personal choice that was made that is neither cowardly nor heroic. Just as any athlete leaving a contest due to an injury or event is heroic or cowardly
She's an individual competing in an individual sport (like golf) and can ho whatever she wants for whatever reason. She doesn't owe anyone anything.
In fact, when she returned to cheer on her team the other night instead of sulking in the locker room was an act on monumental courage.
Back in the day, others had to tough it out (Jennifer Capriati, Andrea Jaeger) with predictable results.
She'll pay the price, maybe even regret what she did, but the combination of the weight of world expectations on her shoulders + Covid it's understandable what happened, maybe even predictable.
of Eastern Bloc countries in the 70's and early 80's, have athletes been "forced" to compete?
Again - any athlete is free to not compete. And with it comes reactions, both good and bad.
Forced? No, but there's a prevailing attitude of "suck it up" in American culture and especially for top athletes.
While we Americans can be ugly in a variety of ways, I don’t think we have any monopoly on that attitude.
Shit my buddy from Colombia often reminds us they once shot the guy who allowed an embarrassing own goal in the World Cup years ago
That was wild. I think this link is it, the 1994 loss to the USA where the guy scored an on-goal. I read the shooter shouted "goal" when they shot him. Link - ( New Window )
they aren't celebrating the overall result of what happened. It's sad and unfortunate that this happened to her and she had to go through all of this.
But pulling out due to "the twisties" in the warm-up so as to not put herself at risk of extreme injury (or hurt her team's chances) is thought of as brave by many precisely because of the stigma with mental issues. If arguably the best of all time could "get the twisties," then it's okay when others do as well.
If arguably the greatest of all time could pull herself off of the biggest stage at the last minute because she mentally lost control of her body and was not in the right place to compete safely or help her team, then it liberates others to do the same when they are struggling and would otherwise feel pressured to to put themselves at risk of catastrophic injury.
It also pushes the conversation forward about mental health, generally-- especially showing how even successful, talented people struggle.
I'd also disagree with the description as "not mentally prepared to participate." That seems a bit callous, as if it was a failing of effort on her part.
If an athlete tweaked or aggravated something in pre-game warm-ups and couldn't go, I can't imagine any reasonable person would describe that player as "not physically prepared." Rather, the person would just be out with an injury.
they aren't celebrating the overall result of what happened. It's sad and unfortunate that this happened to her and she had to go through all of this.
But pulling out due to "the twisties" in the warm-up so as to not put herself at risk of extreme injury (or hurt her team's chances) is thought of as brave by many precisely because of the stigma with mental issues. If arguably the best of all time could "get the twisties," then it's okay when others do as well.
If arguably the greatest of all time could pull herself off of the biggest stage at the last minute because she mentally lost control of her body and was not in the right place to compete safely or help her team, then it liberates others to do the same when they are struggling and would otherwise feel pressured to to put themselves at risk of catastrophic injury.
It also pushes the conversation forward about mental health, generally-- especially showing how even successful, talented people struggle.
I'd also disagree with the description as "not mentally prepared to participate." That seems a bit callous, as if it was a failing of effort on her part.
If an athlete tweaked or aggravated something in pre-game warm-ups and couldn't go, I can't imagine any reasonable person would describe that player as "not physically prepared." Rather, the person would just be out with an injury.
struggling with the need to label it either heroic or the move of a loser.
And I'm struggling with how the reaction is ascribed to old white men...
As I succinctly Fucking explained above - all over MY social media are old white dudes posting from their couch, criticizing the actions of a 24 year old young woman who has accomplished more in her short life than they could in 10 lifetimes.
Only when someone brought up race did it occur to me what they were insinuating.
Don't get your granny panties all twisted in a fuckin knot.
struggling with the need to label it either heroic or the move of a loser.
And I'm struggling with how the reaction is ascribed to old white men...
As I succinctly Fucking explained above - all over MY social media are old white dudes posting from their couch, criticizing the actions of a 24 year old young woman who has accomplished more in her short life than they could in 10 lifetimes.
Only when someone brought up race did it occur to me what they were insinuating.
Don't get your granny panties all twisted in a fuckin knot.
Well... you certainly have shown that you have the pulse on old white men. You have a gift.
they aren't celebrating the overall result of what happened. It's sad and unfortunate that this happened to her and she had to go through all of this.
But pulling out due to "the twisties" in the warm-up so as to not put herself at risk of extreme injury (or hurt her team's chances) is thought of as brave by many precisely because of the stigma with mental issues. If arguably the best of all time could "get the twisties," then it's okay when others do as well.
If arguably the greatest of all time could pull herself off of the biggest stage at the last minute because she mentally lost control of her body and was not in the right place to compete safely or help her team, then it liberates others to do the same when they are struggling and would otherwise feel pressured to to put themselves at risk of catastrophic injury.
It also pushes the conversation forward about mental health, generally-- especially showing how even successful, talented people struggle.
I'd also disagree with the description as "not mentally prepared to participate." That seems a bit callous, as if it was a failing of effort on her part.
If an athlete tweaked or aggravated something in pre-game warm-ups and couldn't go, I can't imagine any reasonable person would describe that player as "not physically prepared." Rather, the person would just be out with an injury.
this is semantics and strictly your interpretation of my words. When I wrote "not mentally prepared to participate" my intent with those words was not suggesting she failed. If you viewed it that way, that's your preconception not mine. It's simply a fact and I think that's what she even said or something close to that. Or something like she was "not there" mentally. Again semantics and sensitivity - seeing intent when there was none.
Biles own words for today were she is taking a "mental rest day" - maybe you find her own words offensive about her situation too because rest insinuates she's tired.
Duh! I know that. And like I said, the fact that she came back and rooted for the TEAM was brave.
BUT, gymnastics is essentially an individual sport with your individual scores NOT dependent on anyone else's performance unlike team sports like football, basketball, hockey, etc. Under this *team* concept you just add 'em up at the end and get a number. You are not competing with anyone else while you are preforming. To me, that's an individual sport jerry-rigged into a team concept.
Moreover, I was commenting about her withdrawal from the INDIVIDUAL event tomorrow which was the subject of the thread.
chose the words "not mentally prepared," repeatedly. I remarked that you don't see that when players aggravate an injury or get hurt in pre-game warm-ups.
Usually, when someone is described as "not prepared," the implication was do to a lack of effort of some kind of the subject's part.
"Rest" is also used for injury recovery and prevention as well and not just being "tired."
chose the words "not mentally prepared," repeatedly. I remarked that you don't see that when players aggravate an injury or get hurt in pre-game warm-ups.
Usually, when someone is described as "not prepared," the implication was do to a lack of effort of some kind of the subject's part.
"Rest" is also used for injury recovery and prevention as well and not just being "tired."
Here is a quote from the NY Times to maybe get you off my case, where Biles agrees with me.
So, enough with the white knighting.
Quote:
....At the end of the day, we're human, too, so we have to protect our mind and our body rather than just go out there and do what the world wants us to do.” SIMONE BILES, who left the women's gymnastics final at the Tokyo Olympic Games, saying she was not mentally prepared to continue....
her has not being "mentally prepared." You rarely see athletes not right physically pulling out of a game and being referred to as "physically unprepared." It perpetuates the notion that a person's mental state is entirely controllable vis a vis their physical state. If she used those words herself, I'll concede the point.
And "white knighting?" Because I'm advocating for mental health issues? Grow up.
RE: I also disagree with the NYTimes characterizing
her has not being "mentally prepared." You rarely see athletes not right physically pulling out of a game and being referred to as "physically unprepared." It perpetuates the notion that a person's mental state is entirely controllable vis a vis their physical state. If she used those words herself, I'll concede the point.
And "white knighting?" Because I'm advocating for mental health issues? Grow up.
You're white knighting because multiple people used words "not mentally prepared" that you took offense to with your inane parsing of words seeing intent to malign where none existed.
I think referring to the state of not feeling right mentally to being "mentally unprepared" does a disservice to mental health. But I wasn't offended. Nor is that what "white knighting" means.
Think about the next gymnast that would've made it had Biles made this decision before the Olympics started. She stole that opportunity of a lifetime from someone who busted their tail for it.
I feel for her, but I also feel for the other person.
The other person wasn't good enough to make the team.
I dunno. When someone is under stress of expectations and flooded with emotions...not folding but rather taking care of yourself ( my recognizing reality instead of feelings) seems to fall under the rubric of a kind of courage.
Tons of people find it hard to be self aware or "break through" a loaded emotional situation.
If mental health care workers want to label it as a learning moment example for the many many people who they try to help live more courageous lives...im fine with that use of an object lesson from a sad situation.
How does any of that largely unknownable and harmless stew affect a grown man who doesn't know the sport or the person?
On the other hand it's a good thread to see easily and clearly what is not at all an act of courage or heroism
Think about the next gymnast that would've made it had Biles made this decision before the Olympics started. She stole that opportunity of a lifetime from someone who busted their tail for it.
I feel for her, but I also feel for the other person.
The other person wasn't good enough to make the team.
Lost on this "opinion" is the fact that this happened during warmups. She didn't steal anything from anyone, its such a garbage take.
mental issues as she his counting her endorsement Benjamins. I am sure that will alleviate any pain (emotional or Physical) she is having now.
In a way, she turned the house on the casino. She was at the epic top peak of earning potential and took the endorsers for a ride. Whether intentional or unintentional it doesn't matter. But I bet marketing teams will rethink their formula for investing in amateur athletes to promote their product based on what happed here going forward.
Seems like societal concerns about mental health have receded again. My guess is, had she made this decision within days after a well-publicized mass shooting, she would have benefitted from half the country suddenly concerning themselves with mental health and how its stigma prevents people from seeking help. Such people would then have been very wary to criticize her, lest they risk their bluff being called.
Biles wasn't able to go and put her best foot forward. By the looks of things shown by the TV coverage, this has been building up over time in recent prior events/practices.
She did the smart thing to recognize it and back out, not hurt herself and let the team try to pick her up. Just like she has done for other US teams over her entire career. The team did the best they could and got the Silver.
Heroic feels a little hyperbolic, I think the best description is commendable or admirable.
I'm late to the party, but this hits the nail on the head for me. Why argue about whether what Biles did is "heroic" or not? I'm not sure why people feel the need to take an extreme stance on this one way or the other, given the limited perspective that everyone who isn't an olympic gymnast has.
Why can't it just be - Simone Biles did the right thing and I'm glad she didn't get hurt?
I know Kerri Strug was mentioned a couple of times in this thread, but in case anyone doesn't know the details - she was persuaded to compete on a badly injured leg and - after protesting that she couldn't compete on television for the whole world to see - she was forced to compete anyway and injured herself even worse. She was then forced to retire at age 18. We then learned after the fact that her competing wasn't even necessary and her team would've won gold anyway. This is someone who started training at age 3.
is subjective which is why this whole discussion is stupid. It’s largely politically driven anyway just like everything else these days.
No one is making you call her a hero. No one is making you watch news coverage or read an article calling her a hero. If you don’t like her being called a hero, move on, it really is that simple.
We call people legends, goats, role models, etc, but apparently the word hero is a big no no, it’s bizarre.
struggling with the need to label it either heroic or the move of a loser.
It was a personal decision carried out in the public eye, but we are seemingly programmed with having to label everything to fit an opinion.
To me, this was a personal choice that was made that is neither cowardly nor heroic. Just as any athlete leaving a contest due to an injury or event is heroic or cowardly
I mostly agree with this. Heroic might be a bit of an overstatement, but there is still a stigma attached to mental health, and discussing it publicly does take some courage. As others have stated, the complexities of her routines leave chance for serious injury if she isn't right, so I give her credit for recognizing that and acting on it.
As she said, she felt her team had a better chance of medalling if she didn't perform.
is subjective which is why this whole discussion is stupid. It’s largely politically driven anyway just like everything else these days.
Yeah, usually heroism is simply something we apply towards someone who's willing to perform against their own best interests in order to conform to our wants.
I don't think she is a hero (that word is thrown around way to much
Is that she caught the "twisties" which is similar to getting the yips when golfing and is common in gymnastics. The biggest difference is that in her world the twisties can cause serious damage during a performance.
She noticed it on her first run vault run which required her to do 2 1/2 twists of her body. She got lost mid-twist and only accomplished 1 1/2 twist. Supposedly getting the twisties means your mind is not connecting right with your body.
and her right to do so. But, I am starting to tire of the praise and calls of heroism. All she did was make a smart choice for her physical and mental well being.
That is not diminishing the impact of mental health. But, if it is really this "twisties", then the decision is purely self preservation. If there are underlying mental health issues, then I don't think she is above some questions. I wouldn't say criticism is warranted, but isn't at least fair to question where her head was prior and whether the fair outcome would have been to decline her spot from the beginning and let someone else make the trip to Japan?
On the flip side, the criticism calling her a coward, a traitor, turning her back on her country, etc. are ignorant and reprehensible.
'On the flip side, the criticism calling her a coward, a traitor, turning her back on her country, etc. are ignorant and reprehensible.'
& all too predictable. I have co-workers who are rooting AGAINST the US women's national soccer team for reasons I won't get into here. & how one can root against a team with that smokeshow Alex Morgan on it...I will never understand.
'On the flip side, the criticism calling her a coward, a traitor, turning her back on her country, etc. are ignorant and reprehensible.'
& all too predictable. I have co-workers who are rooting AGAINST the US women's national soccer team for reasons I won't get into here. & how one can root against a team with that smokeshow Alex Morgan on it...I will never understand.
Yeah,
I don't get that either. Ihave read more about their pay battle and changed my stance of support on that issue. But, in general, how are they un-American or traitors for supporting social, racial, and gender justice? This opens a whole other can of worms that I don't think belongs here. But, just in general, how is it not hypocritical to call them traitors and criticize them as disrespecting their country and then you rooting against them? Isn't that unpatriotic?
were abandoned by the American Olympic Committee and the Gymnastics organization, when they were being abused by Nassar. Then, the gymnastics people got an FBI agent involved to cover up the scandal.(link)
Quote:
Simone Biles was abandoned by American Olympic officials, and the torment hasn’t stopped
The trouble with the phrase “mental health” is that it’s an abstraction that allows you to sail right straight over what happened to Simone Biles and, in a way, what is still happening to her. To this day, American Olympic officials continue to betray her. They deny that they had a legal duty to protect her and others from rapist-child pornographer Larry Nassar, and they continue to evade accountability in judicial maneuvering. Abuse is a current event for her.
It’s a perilous endeavor to project what Biles, the most uniquely superior gymnast in the world, is feeling or thinking at this juncture. But she has been frank about these things: her profound lingering distrust of USA Gymnastics and the USOPC and her conviction they will not do right by her and other athletes of their own accord. Remember, if it wasn’t for Biles bringing her clout to the issue, these users would still be making women train in the buggy squalor of the Karolyi Ranch, the USOPC-sanctioned hellhole where they were molested.
As Biles told NBC’s Hoda Kotb in a recent interview, one of the main reasons she came back for another Olympics at age 24 was to try to ensure some accountability. “If there weren’t a remaining survivor in the sport, they would’ve just brushed it to the side,” she said.
Yes, Simone is hero for pushing through all of this and supporting her younger and less powerful teammates. And as is often the case, the USOC is a bunch of cowards.
were abandoned by the American Olympic Committee and the Gymnastics organization, when they were being abused by Nassar. Then, the gymnastics people got an FBI agent involved to cover up the scandal.(link)
Quote:
Simone Biles was abandoned by American Olympic officials, and the torment hasn’t stopped
The trouble with the phrase “mental health” is that it’s an abstraction that allows you to sail right straight over what happened to Simone Biles and, in a way, what is still happening to her. To this day, American Olympic officials continue to betray her. They deny that they had a legal duty to protect her and others from rapist-child pornographer Larry Nassar, and they continue to evade accountability in judicial maneuvering. Abuse is a current event for her.
It’s a perilous endeavor to project what Biles, the most uniquely superior gymnast in the world, is feeling or thinking at this juncture. But she has been frank about these things: her profound lingering distrust of USA Gymnastics and the USOPC and her conviction they will not do right by her and other athletes of their own accord. Remember, if it wasn’t for Biles bringing her clout to the issue, these users would still be making women train in the buggy squalor of the Karolyi Ranch, the USOPC-sanctioned hellhole where they were molested.
As Biles told NBC’s Hoda Kotb in a recent interview, one of the main reasons she came back for another Olympics at age 24 was to try to ensure some accountability. “If there weren’t a remaining survivor in the sport, they would’ve just brushed it to the side,” she said.
Yes, Simone is hero for pushing through all of this and supporting her younger and less powerful teammates. And as is often the case, the USOC is a bunch of cowards.
Link - ( New Window )
US gymnastics as an organization is seedy and disgusting, to say the least, and has been for a while. I'm frankly surprised we've still got high quality athletes in women's gymnastics because what parent would want to trust US gymnastics with their daughter with their history?
We're going on almost two years of madness worldwide. This shit is outta hand for the normal citizen.
Imagine having the weight of the country on your shoulders and you're 24.
Sorry, but I have a ton of sympathy for these young athletes.
We're going on almost two years of madness worldwide. This shit is outta hand for the normal citizen.
Imagine having the weight of the country on your shoulders and you're 24.
Sorry, but I have a ton of sympathy for these young athletes.
100% - She's been under this pressure for far too long. Cumulative effect and I wonder if she would have retire from competition last year had the games been last year. I'll bet this last year was not in her plans.
God Bless her and give her peace.
If that means never returning to this kind of spotlight, then so be it. She’s young and can switch careers or take a less pressure role related to gymnastics.
I went through a real tough stretch this spring and needed to take time off to get therapy. I didn’t face near the pressure she has. Can’t imagine the kind of pressure she faces while being that young.
It’s embarrassing, I hate reading it.
You never know what people are going through. These athletes have so much pressure on them and she is already well known and has the weight of the country on her shoulders.
You never know what people are going through. These athletes have so much pressure on them and she is already well known and has the weight of the country on her shoulders.
Her sport is completely different and if she isn't focused, she could easily break her neck. My wife used to compete in gymnastics at a high level and thinks Biles' has a case of the "twistees". Basically her timing's off and her spatial awareness during the flips/twists is gone. Happens all the time, but can take weeks to work through.
If you want a baseball analogy, it's like Knoblauch getting the yips, except when he air mails it, he just gets heckled. If Biles overrotates on a flip on beam, she breaks her leg (or worse).
but once you watch it you can see she shouldnt of been out there, she could of really hurt herself during that vault...she had no idea where she was midway through her jump..
Quote:
ripped into her during yesterdays show pretty much saying what if Arod or Jeter said No I am taking myself out of the game during say ganme 7 of the world series with the game on the line.
You never know what people are going through. These athletes have so much pressure on them and she is already well known and has the weight of the country on her shoulders.
Her sport is completely different and if she isn't focused, she could easily break her neck. My wife used to compete in gymnastics at a high level and thinks Biles' has a case of the "twistees". Basically her timing's off and her spatial awareness during the flips/twists is gone. Happens all the time, but can take weeks to work through.
If you want a baseball analogy, it's like Knoblauch getting the yips, except when he air mails it, he just gets heckled. If Biles overrotates on a flip on beam, she breaks her leg (or worse).
I give anyone credit for going out there to perform. I dont blame her at all. She did what was best for her and her team and she can go to perform another day.
So now, she doesnt owe anyone an answer. She is the one taking the brunt of this all. No one but her. the country she is representing counted on her but it shouldnt be just on her.
That being said, i just hope other athletes get the help they need first instead of putting themselves in that type of situation. Also, i hope other athletes dont use "mental health" as an excuse if it really isnt. I mean if you legit have that issue, thats fine but if you are fucking up and know you are going to lose, dont use that as an excuse as it will hurt the others with the actual issue. Though i couldnt under the basketball using that reason. They suck.
So now, she doesnt owe anyone an answer. She is the one taking the brunt of this all. No one but her. the country she is representing counted on her but it shouldnt be just on her.
That being said, i just hope other athletes get the help they need first instead of putting themselves in that type of situation. Also, i hope other athletes dont use "mental health" as an excuse if it really isnt. I mean if you legit have that issue, thats fine but if you are fucking up and know you are going to lose, dont use that as an excuse as it will hurt the others with the actual issue. Though i couldnt under the basketball using that reason. They suck.
Very strange Olympics and her not having her grandparents with her has probably had a huge impact. Of course some will criticize this and I hope they are able to better educate themselves on the difficulties of any type of mental struggle.
If this is a mental thing, then I can't imagine it would "fix" itself in a day.
That stinks, she is such a great talent and this was her stage that only comes along ever 4 years (or 5 with covid).
The negative criticism is uncalled for and should stop. Alot of ignorant people in the world.
My wish for Biles is for the fun and joy of performing her sport to return for her regardless of her form.
But at the same time, pressure is a part of athletic competition when you're at such a high level. I'm disappointed that she basically quit because her performance wasn't up to her expectations. I wanted to see the GOAT do GOAT things. I know that she is just a 24 year old kid but I wish she showed more resilience. I know I sound like a douche for saying it but she was the #1 person I was ready to see during these Olympics and she quit because she struggled, or at least it seems that way. I hope she gets in the right mental state but this was disappointing.
Wish i could be surprised by the criticism but at this point id be surprised if there wasnt a large amount of people ripping her up. Like they have any clue what she is dealing with or the type of pressure she is under.
Would love for her to be able to compete in the individual events next week. Would be such a shame for her to miss out on competing completely, but its only a week, not sure its enough time.
But at the same time, pressure is a part of athletic competition when you're at such a high level. I'm disappointed that she basically quit because her performance wasn't up to her expectations. I wanted to see the GOAT do GOAT things. I know that she is just a 24 year old kid but I wish she showed more resilience. I know I sound like a douche for saying it but she was the #1 person I was ready to see during these Olympics and she quit because she struggled, or at least it seems that way. I hope she gets in the right mental state but this was disappointing.
I doubt this had anything to do with her inability to handle the pressure. Like I said earlier, this is more like a bad slump or a baseball player getting the "yips" except the consequences to screwing up a triple flip off vault can deadly.
And I agree with Rick, I think she's been dealing with this for a while and tried to fight through it. I watched the US trials and she was definitely "off" during them, but the skills she does are so much more difficult than everyone else's that she still easily qualified.
Still sucks we don't get to see her do her thing. I was so excited to see her. I wish she was able to figure it out before it got to this point.
You never know what people are going through. These athletes have so much pressure on them and she is already well known and has the weight of the country on her shoulders.
This is closer to when CC stepped away to deal with his drinking, not just someone saying I can't go today.
You could see it in the prelim round. My wife even commented about how you could see the pressure she was under and hoped she'd be ok.
Still sucks we don't get to see her do her thing. I was so excited to see her. I wish she was able to figure it out before it got to this point.
Couldn't agree more. She was doing skills no one had ever done and USAG actually tried to ban them because they claimed they were too dangerous (for women).
Look, I agree about the potential serious health risks of gymnastics being dangerous if your head isn't right.
But I do think this is a situation that would be viewed differently had it happened to a male athlete instead of a lovable tiny girl. I think Michael Kay is a douche, I can't stand him. But his general point about the way we would treat other athletes is fair imo.
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the argument that "she could hurt herself if she's not right mentally" is a good one. So I'll concede that "quitting" is different than an athlete from another less dangerous sport doing a similar thing.
Still sucks we don't get to see her do her thing. I was so excited to see her. I wish she was able to figure it out before it got to this point.
Couldn't agree more. She was doing skills no one had ever done and USAG actually tried to ban them because they claimed they were too dangerous (for women).
Yea, I thought that was an incredible story when I read about it. I can’t remember reading something like that about an athlete before. She was so alien that she was putting other gymnasts in danger if they tried the same thing. Just an unreal story. That’s one of the main reasons I was looking forward to seeing her.
let me put it this way - if you're the girl who dedicated your entire life to making the team and were the last girl cut and you saw Biles walk away mid-Olympics because "the pressure was too great," you would be pretty upset right now and you would have a legitimate beef. biles should have known better than most what the scene was going to be like and if she had any inkling that it was going to be too much (and it seems she did), then she should have walked away long before the middle of the competition.
i hope biles gets the help she needs, but i'm not seeing a hero here. she's a hero for what she has accomplished, but not for this.
Now the one difference between Ankiel analogy..imagine if losing that ability and continuing to pitch could potentially paralyze you.. that's why this is the right move.
So...did we rip on Ankiel for being soft? No..we just didn't discuss it as the mental health issue it clearly was...
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Her entire career is a display of resiliency. There’s physical consequences not being mentally there, I don’t blame her. Wanting to see her do goat things is fine but it’s not the end all be all.
Look, I agree about the potential serious health risks of gymnastics being dangerous if your head isn't right.
But I do think this is a situation that would be viewed differently had it happened to a male athlete instead of a lovable tiny girl. I think Michael Kay is a douche, I can't stand him. But his general point about the way we would treat other athletes is fair imo.
I mentioned in another thread about how a QB would be looked at if he didn't take the field due to mental health issues, especially if it was a playoff game.
Because mental illness is still misunderstood, you will see these types of events just be polarizing more than learning examples. Trolls on social media ripping Biles will be offset on the other side by people claiming Biles is a role model and such a strong woman for taking the events off, when the reality is in the middle. No competitor has to take the field. And when they don't, there will be consequences both intended and otherwise.
We've had injured Giants shit on by their own fans as being fragile and weak. What will the take be if they sit out for mental health reasons? I mean, we've had people wish death on Eli and assorted others in game threads - and that was a player who wasn't hurt and out there competing - what will the take be for a voluntary opt-out?
I hope the Biles situation helps put a spotlight on mental health, but I already see it being more of a platform for division than anything else. Anyone questioning her is being labeled negatively as others rush to sing her praises and talk about her being a role model. I'm not sure why this dichotomy has to happen in everything today.
Now the one difference between Ankiel analogy..imagine if losing that ability and continuing to pitch could potentially paralyze you.. that's why this is the right move.
So...did we rip on Ankiel for being soft? No..we just didn't discuss it as the mental health issue it clearly was...
Ohh the other difference is if Ankiel was already considered the greatest pitcher of all time and literally had nothing left to prove to anyone.
How would we react if an NFL QB chose to sit out the second half of a Super Bowl to focus on his mental well being?
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In comment 15314758 UConn4523 said:
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Her entire career is a display of resiliency. There’s physical consequences not being mentally there, I don’t blame her. Wanting to see her do goat things is fine but it’s not the end all be all.
Look, I agree about the potential serious health risks of gymnastics being dangerous if your head isn't right.
But I do think this is a situation that would be viewed differently had it happened to a male athlete instead of a lovable tiny girl. I think Michael Kay is a douche, I can't stand him. But his general point about the way we would treat other athletes is fair imo.
I mentioned in another thread about how a QB would be looked at if he didn't take the field due to mental health issues, especially if it was a playoff game.
Because mental illness is still misunderstood, you will see these types of events just be polarizing more than learning examples. Trolls on social media ripping Biles will be offset on the other side by people claiming Biles is a role model and such a strong woman for taking the events off, when the reality is in the middle. No competitor has to take the field. And when they don't, there will be consequences both intended and otherwise.
We've had injured Giants shit on by their own fans as being fragile and weak. What will the take be if they sit out for mental health reasons? I mean, we've had people wish death on Eli and assorted others in game threads - and that was a player who wasn't hurt and out there competing - what will the take be for a voluntary opt-out?
I hope the Biles situation helps put a spotlight on mental health, but I already see it being more of a platform for division than anything else. Anyone questioning her is being labeled negatively as others rush to sing her praises and talk about her being a role model. I'm not sure why this dichotomy has to happen in everything today.
Well said and I couldn't agree more.
All the over analysis by all the talking heads and every keyboard warrior makes everyone feel like they have to pick a hill and die on it trying to defend it.
It's the world we live in now.
How would we react if an NFL QB chose to sit out the second half of a Super Bowl to focus on his mental well being?
If they were as good as Simone Biles, they would have been in her place.
let me put it this way - if you're the girl who dedicated your entire life to making the team and were the last girl cut and you saw Biles walk away mid-Olympics because "the pressure was too great," you would be pretty upset right now and you would have a legitimate beef. biles should have known better than most what the scene was going to be like and if she had any inkling that it was going to be too much (and it seems she did), then she should have walked away long before the middle of the competition.
i hope biles gets the help she needs, but i'm not seeing a hero here. she's a hero for what she has accomplished, but not for this.
You said it better (and more sympathetically) than I did, good post
Because compromise has become a 4 letter word. Now that everyone has a platform to voice their opinion (twitter, etc) everyone believes their opinion is the correct one and any contrary opinions are wrong. Nuance be damned.
Take what happens here with DJ threads and extrapolate that out to this, or politics, or whatever debate you can think of. And then add in about 10000x more hatred for people with that opposing opinion
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Her entire career is a display of resiliency. There’s physical consequences not being mentally there, I don’t blame her. Wanting to see her do goat things is fine but it’s not the end all be all.
Look, I agree about the potential serious health risks of gymnastics being dangerous if your head isn't right.
But I do think this is a situation that would be viewed differently had it happened to a male athlete instead of a lovable tiny girl. I think Michael Kay is a douche, I can't stand him. But his general point about the way we would treat other athletes is fair imo.
I can only speak for myself but I wouldn’t. I’ve changed my views on sports as I’ve gotten older. They aren’t that serious and my expectations from them are entertainment only, and I certainly don’t want anyone to get hurt or suffer so I can be entertained (outside of combat sports).
We have a warped view of sports as a society, it’s really odd to me.
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but i don't think she should be lauded for essentially quitting on her team. is quitting almost always a mental health issue? maybe. does that make it okay? not in my book - and reasonable minds can disagree on this.
let me put it this way - if you're the girl who dedicated your entire life to making the team and were the last girl cut and you saw Biles walk away mid-Olympics because "the pressure was too great," you would be pretty upset right now and you would have a legitimate beef. biles should have known better than most what the scene was going to be like and if she had any inkling that it was going to be too much (and it seems she did), then she should have walked away long before the middle of the competition.
i hope biles gets the help she needs, but i'm not seeing a hero here. she's a hero for what she has accomplished, but not for this.
You said it better (and more sympathetically) than I did, good post
How would you feel if she fought through this and competed and a week or so later she is found dead from a apparent suicide? Then a close teammate later says she was really struggling for a while.
The message does not need to be she is a hero but simply that her example makes it easier for someone else struggling to ask for help.
Now the one difference between Ankiel analogy..imagine if losing that ability and continuing to pitch could potentially paralyze you.. that's why this is the right move.
So...did we rip on Ankiel for being soft? No..we just didn't discuss it as the mental health issue it clearly was...
That's actually a great analogy and while there was no risk to Ankiel, the batters were in serious jeopardy the way he was pitching.
We've had injured Giants shit on by their own fans as being fragile and weak. What will the take be if they sit out for mental health reasons? I mean, we've had people wish death on Eli and assorted others in game threads - and that was a player who wasn't hurt and out there competing - what will the take be for a voluntary opt-out?
We don't need to wonder what it would be like. Just look at Kyrie Irving or Aaron Hicks.
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In comment 15314768 GiantNatty said:
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but i don't think she should be lauded for essentially quitting on her team. is quitting almost always a mental health issue? maybe. does that make it okay? not in my book - and reasonable minds can disagree on this.
let me put it this way - if you're the girl who dedicated your entire life to making the team and were the last girl cut and you saw Biles walk away mid-Olympics because "the pressure was too great," you would be pretty upset right now and you would have a legitimate beef. biles should have known better than most what the scene was going to be like and if she had any inkling that it was going to be too much (and it seems she did), then she should have walked away long before the middle of the competition.
i hope biles gets the help she needs, but i'm not seeing a hero here. she's a hero for what she has accomplished, but not for this.
You said it better (and more sympathetically) than I did, good post
How would you feel if she fought through this and competed and a week or so later she is found dead from a apparent suicide? Then a close teammate later says she was really struggling for a while.
The message does not need to be she is a hero but simply that her example makes it easier for someone else struggling to ask for help.
I'll admit that I was both an asshole in my first post, and that there's no doubt more complexities that I or any of us are aware of.
But to your question - if she was struggling for a while, why is she even there?
How would we react if an NFL QB chose to sit out the second half of a Super Bowl to focus on his mental well being?
So why aren’t they? Probably because she’s better than them.
Not worth arguing about though, your mind is made up that she’s a loser and there’s likely no changing your mind.
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In comment 15314768 GiantNatty said:
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but i don't think she should be lauded for essentially quitting on her team. is quitting almost always a mental health issue? maybe. does that make it okay? not in my book - and reasonable minds can disagree on this.
let me put it this way - if you're the girl who dedicated your entire life to making the team and were the last girl cut and you saw Biles walk away mid-Olympics because "the pressure was too great," you would be pretty upset right now and you would have a legitimate beef. biles should have known better than most what the scene was going to be like and if she had any inkling that it was going to be too much (and it seems she did), then she should have walked away long before the middle of the competition.
i hope biles gets the help she needs, but i'm not seeing a hero here. she's a hero for what she has accomplished, but not for this.
You said it better (and more sympathetically) than I did, good post
How would you feel if she fought through this and competed and a week or so later she is found dead from a apparent suicide? Then a close teammate later says she was really struggling for a while.
The message does not need to be she is a hero but simply that her example makes it easier for someone else struggling to ask for help.
Exactly. Our society on a whole is very much influenced by the machismo mindset, and showing signs of "weakness" brings derision, let alone asking for help. Hopefully this is a stepping stone towards normalizing asking for help and not being afraid to look after one's own mental well-being
I think that's very well said. We have no middle ground in public opinion anymore - it is all about picking a side and beating it to death.
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but there's a lot of other athletes who would be happy to be there in her place.
How would we react if an NFL QB chose to sit out the second half of a Super Bowl to focus on his mental well being?
So why aren’t they? Probably because she’s better than them.
Not worth arguing about though, your mind is made up that she’s a loser and there’s likely no changing your mind.
Except it turns out she's not better than them, bc being better requires showing up to compete.
Agree, we don't need to argue...my bigger point is why are we required to call her a hero for this?
I realize I'm taking the unpopular asshole stance here, guilty as charged.
If her doing what she did helps a kid that struggling, or inspires someone on the brink of killing themselves to take a step back and know others are going through something similar, doesn't that matter more? Why is your entertainment so important? And I bet most of the people criticizing her are those that mock the olympics and don't watch women's gymnastics.
I think this is pretty spot on.
I'll admit that I was both an asshole in my first post, and that there's no doubt more complexities that I or any of us are aware of.
But to your question - if she was struggling for a while, why is she even there?
She was probably hoping to work through the issues between the US trials and now. And even with her struggles at the US trials, she still easily qualified and finished 2nd overall.
It is such a shame that people cant be bothered to take this chance to educate themselves. This isnt directed at anyone here but all over the internet you hear people say "I dont deal with mental health issues but..(insert there opinion about it)" or flat out people saying they dont understand a lot of mental health issues but again they are going to give you all their thoughts. Maybe instead of people being so quick to defend, trash, etc... they take the chance to educate themselves a bit more.
Reasonable question, but in the end we're just fans discussing (and arguing a bit) on a message board.
Can't speak for others, but I've always loved the women's gymnastics, as I do most Olympic sports. Was genuinely bummed to hear this news, but it was also notable how off her game she was.
To take a step back and look at my own perspective - I do believe she was one of the last remaining women on the team who went through the sexual assualt saga - now that was heartbreaking, and worthy of the utmost sympathy. I can fully admit I have no idea what it feels like to go through that, or to feel the pressure of competing anywhere close to the level she and all these athletes are.
As I said before, what bothers me more is when something becomes the automatic opinion we're required to take, that's what I'm arguing against.
Can and should I be more sympathetic about this situation? OK, fair. But i also don;t have to like the fact she quit on her team
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the better question is why does it bother you? Why have we lost the ability to just ignore or not be bothered by things we don't agree with?
Reasonable question, but in the end we're just fans discussing (and arguing a bit) on a message board.
Can't speak for others, but I've always loved the women's gymnastics, as I do most Olympic sports. Was genuinely bummed to hear this news, but it was also notable how off her game she was.
To take a step back and look at my own perspective - I do believe she was one of the last remaining women on the team who went through the sexual assualt saga - now that was heartbreaking, and worthy of the utmost sympathy. I can fully admit I have no idea what it feels like to go through that, or to feel the pressure of competing anywhere close to the level she and all these athletes are.
As I said before, what bothers me more is when something becomes the automatic opinion we're required to take, that's what I'm arguing against.
Can and should I be more sympathetic about this situation? OK, fair. But i also don;t have to like the fact she quit on her team
"Having to put that much pressure on her to carry the team to gold, it's not fair," Biles' former teammate Laurie Hernandez said. "This is a team of four, not a team of one."
"I know that all of these athletes dream of this moment for their whole entire lives, and I'm just completely devastated," Raisman said of her teammate. "I am obviously so worried and just hoping that Simone is OK."
"[Biles] is not only focused on being the greatest athlete in the world and then minutes later she's putting on a diplomat suit and talking about the politics of the sport," he told BuzzFeed News. "For any athlete at any age, that's complete overload."
"We really don't know exactly how many Olympic athletes typically struggle with mental health issues largely due to the mental health stigma that still exists in sports," Suzanne Potts, director of Athletes for Hope told BuzzFeed News. "We do know that 1 in 5 adults struggle with their mental health, and it’s likely that the numbers are higher in elite athletes."
Just some perspective.
They got to their levels of acclaim because they achieved and earned it.
What I have an issue with is the people who hail them as heroic for pulling out of events due to mental health.
It's not heroic any more than it is cowardly.
just leave them alone, let them heal, but don't make them "brave" for it.
some day the stigma of mental issue will be gone just like the first "x" person to do something. So I hate the vitriol spewed at these young athletes. But I also think some people swing too far the other way.
She recognized she was about to destroy her teams chances..
Michael Kay's A-Rod/Jeter analogy is bad. A better analogy is an aging HOF starting pitcher going in game 7, not having his best stuff, getting hit, and then having the maturity and humility to allow the coach to pull him early to still give his team a chance to win. We would all think that takes guts, and what she did takes guts. (And that's setting aside the physical and mental health issues, which I think are super legit.)
I do think this goes both ways though. One question is why do we have to laud or decry? Why can't it just be an athlete that has made a choice that is essential a neutral impact to everyone who isn't associated directly with the event. Why is there praise and encouragement and why is there hate and derision?
My reaction was "That's too bad. I hope she'll be alright". Not sure why it has to go much deeper.
I'm also not a big fan of talking about how her influence impacts others. One can easily make a case that her competing as the best gymnast in the world has impacted many more young athletes than any message she may provide on mental health. But again - not sure why a case has to be made at all.
The world is now almost exclusively black and white, all nuance has been lost. Biles is either a hero or a quitter, no room for discussion. So until that changes you are going to see the extremes and I'll support the hero angle over the quitter angle.
The idea that she isn't tough or resilient is unsupported by everything she has accomplished in her career.
What she does requires total conviction and confidence because there is such a large margin for error and injury, and if she is dealing with something mentally where she doesn't feel right up in the air, or got the "twisties" as they seem to call it, the game is already over. She would cost her team in performance, and she would open herself up to severe injury.
Some on here are acting as if this was her plan all along. It probably kills her that she did all this training, fought back the internal pressures and anxiety along the way, only to fly to Tokyo in a Covid Olympics, bond with her teammates, only to have to pull out at the last minute because she didn't feel right. It would have been much, much easier for her to pull out well before this moment
Here it goes.
She was depended on to be the shinning light for the team. She failed at that for the competition. So yes, it can and should be said she failed.
She did what she felt was right for her own well being. No one should slame her for doing what she felt was necessary for herself and her team. She should also not be idolized for the decision.
People are going to feel let down. People are going to feel she showed great personal awareness. But what matters most is she gets through this a better person.
The idea that she isn't tough or resilient is unsupported by everything she has accomplished in her career.
What she does requires total conviction and confidence because there is such a large margin for error and injury, and if she is dealing with something mentally where she doesn't feel right up in the air, or got the "twisties" as they seem to call it, the game is already over. She would cost her team in performance, and she would open herself up to severe injury.
Some on here are acting as if this was her plan all along. It probably kills her that she did all this training, fought back the internal pressures and anxiety along the way, only to fly to Tokyo in a Covid Olympics, bond with her teammates, only to have to pull out at the last minute because she didn't feel right. It would have been much, much easier for her to pull out well before this moment
I don't think whether she is tough or not is the issue, it is how do this responsibly. And, we are just taking her word about the mental issues, has she been previously diagnosed with something such as anxiety or depression or was this self-doubt. Many of us have self-doubt on our jobs and have to continue doing them others have debilitating mental health issues such as anxiety and depression and are every bit as sick as someone who has a physical ailment. There are processes for doing things and it was the way this was done that is bothersome to me. She is not a hero for pulling out an hour before a competition like some are making her out to be.
Agreed.
It's because so many attach mental health issues with weakness or a lack of resiliency/heart that so often it goes untreated and turns to a source of shame, only exacerbating the problem and furthering the stigma.
Would I have preferred that Biles were healthy, and dominated the gymnastics world yet again? Of course. But given the situation she then found herself, it took courage to step away and make not only the safer decision for her, but also one that was less selfish.
We love to celebrate the idea of "gutting it out" when an athlete has an injury because we love to see the fight. But it's worth pointing out that gutting it out can also be selfish if the player at less than 100% is a worse option than his healthy backup.
As far as people calling Biles "brave", its because she made this decision knowing the backlash she would receive in the twitter world that they feel this way. If people were more sympathetic to what she's dealing with (or 'neutral' as others put it) then it wouldn't require "bravery" for Biles' to withdraw. But that's unfortunately not the world we live in.
It's because so many attach mental health issues with weakness or a lack of resiliency/heart that so often it goes untreated and turns to a source of shame, only exacerbating the problem and furthering the stigma.
Would I have preferred that Biles were healthy, and dominated the gymnastics world yet again? Of course. But given the situation she then found herself, it took courage to step away and make not only the safer decision for her, but also one that was less selfish.
We love to celebrate the idea of "gutting it out" when an athlete has an injury because we love to see the fight. But it's worth pointing out that gutting it out can also be selfish if the player at less than 100% is a worse option than his healthy backup.
Ironically, if it was a broken toe or finger, I'm 100% certain Biles' would've 'gutted it out'. You can't just 'gut out' the twisties though when getting lost in the air can result in much worse than a broken toe/finger.
I for one believe it’s a selfless move and never understood why it’s expected and even honorable to go out there when another teammate would give you a better shot. Of course that’s still the case, so it’s just easier to cite mental health issues. If what the poster said about her possibly costing them a medal is accurate.
I for one believe it’s a selfless move and never understood why it’s expected and even honorable to go out there when another teammate would give you a better shot. Of course that’s still the case, so it’s just easier to cite mental health issues. If what the poster said about her possibly costing them a medal is accurate.
My understanding is that they were not able to replace Biles' with the alternate, which meant that they had to use the scores from the other 3 gymnasts no matter what. Usually all 4 would compete each event and then they'd take the top 3 scores.
Will just say that the level of work and difficulty that these athletes has gotten so extreme it makes me sad to think about. I saw a clip yesterday (linked below) comparing gymnastics in the 1950s and today. Seems like as we continue to push the physical limits we're going to see more pressure on the athletes (plus all the social media bs contributing) and the regular and devastating injuries we've seen of late in MLB/NBA/NFL. The athletes are better - but are the sports really better off?
Link - ( New Window )
But did you work under extreme pressure to be the best every day you went to work for years?
I think we all have stressful days, weeks, and even months (hell after 2020 we can add years to that) but the best comparison I can think of is those kids whose parents force them to become doctors or scientists and anything less than top of the class, 5.0GPA, etc is unacceptable.
There's plenty of stories like that with unhappy endings
Agree 100%.
I don't see the need to shit on her or her legacy. As stated above, my first thought was "Man that sucks for the person who just missed the cut for the team," but if she has no regrets in 10 years then she made the right choice.
some combination of sadism and OCD with some sociopathy thrown in.*
*am not a psychologist and is mostly toungue in cheek
I'm not insisting she needs to be called a hero, I just don't see a problem with it and I'd rather she be called a hero than a loser, because that's what lacks perspective. She also didn't ask to be the lead on the news and likely doesn't want to be so I don't see how that is a factor here when comparing to us little people.
Of course it does, but what makes it stop? Be damned if I know. But until we have some reason i'm going to side with the person actually going through something than the mob that wants to tear them down. Sitting in neutral is an option and one i'd normally take, but that gets us nowhere too.
I for one believe it’s a selfless move and never understood why it’s expected and even honorable to go out there when another teammate would give you a better shot. Of course that’s still the case, so it’s just easier to cite mental health issues. If what the poster said about her possibly costing them a medal is accurate.
Thats what some seem to be missing...this wasn't a "felt too much pressure so decided not to participate"...this was a "holy crap I am lost and can't hit any of my routines, I'm going to get hurt or ruin my teammates chances"
There was no way she could have known this months ago, weeks ago, or days ago...
Like I said...did Rick Ankiel know he was going to suddenly have a mental health issue that resulted in an inability to throw a baseball, something he had done his entire life?
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In comment 15314758 UConn4523 said:
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Her entire career is a display of resiliency. There’s physical consequences not being mentally there, I don’t blame her. Wanting to see her do goat things is fine but it’s not the end all be all.
Look, I agree about the potential serious health risks of gymnastics being dangerous if your head isn't right.
But I do think this is a situation that would be viewed differently had it happened to a male athlete instead of a lovable tiny girl. I think Michael Kay is a douche, I can't stand him. But his general point about the way we would treat other athletes is fair imo.
I can only speak for myself but I wouldn’t. I’ve changed my views on sports as I’ve gotten older. They aren’t that serious and my expectations from them are entertainment only, and I certainly don’t want anyone to get hurt or suffer so I can be entertained (outside of combat sports).
We have a warped view of sports as a society, it’s really odd to me.
I agree. It's gotten worse and worse. 24 hr news cycle, non stop talkies talking shit about everything from strategy to social media profiles to of course, MONEY. Entire topics start and end and dig in to player salaries because why not? it's provocative. It's also overstated hysterics (cap, etc)
I still say we'd all be better off if professional salaries were kept private. Neither here or there, but the Olympics are a money grab too and there's blood in the water.
https://twitter.com/deannahong/status/1420284803711123459?s=21
Our sports news is designed to breakdown athletes that aren't the best of all time, and its trained fans to act the same way. I don't expect everyone to handle it like Kwame did, but we are going to start to see more of that and its 100% deserved.
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staunch support of either extreme just lends itself to the extreme takes continuing.
Of course it does, but what makes it stop? Be damned if I know. But until we have some reason i'm going to side with the person actually going through something than the mob that wants to tear them down. Sitting in neutral is an option and one i'd normally take, but that gets us nowhere too.
That's completely fair. I just happen to believe that the ends of the spectrum are louder than ever and serve no pupose other than to oppose or shout down the other.
Calling people selfish, losers, quitters, drama queens, etc is such a quick and easy reaction these days.
Par for the course for America today.
This should remind us that there are many young people, in service to us who overcome genuine fears and put themselves directly in clear and present danger... the courage of our military, first responders, law enforcement, etc. is remarkable.
Par for the course for America today.
Isn't that what the idea of this site is based on?
The many of us who have self doubts in our jobs, and many other athletes in other sports who struggle with pressure, aren't dealing with nearly the physical consequences of being "lost in the air" during elite-level gymnastics.
Take note of all the reactions from competitive gymnasts, ones who actually understand the risks and some of what she had to deal with. They are all messages of empathy.
As to general reactions, many people offered support and are trying to lift her up because that's the sympathetic and decent thing to do when someone is dealing with an issue like she was facing.
But of course, Outrage as a Service sells in this economy. Give people reasons to be angry, keep them angry, and then point them to where they can direct some of that anger. And the more some of these media personalities can tether any piece of news or any public person's action into the larger cultural divide, well then it becomes self-propelling.
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who could never dream in a million years of being an Olympic athlete commenting on an Olympic athlete, the best of her generation no less.
Par for the course for America today.
Isn't that what the idea of this site is based on?
I think he meant to say "shitting on" instead of commenting, atleast that's how I took it. And yes, many on BBI do think that's what this site is for.
Imagine Biles is Eli Manning, because that's basically the equivalent in terms of Giants fans.
If Eli Manning had decided to step away or quit because of mental health issues, after all he had done for the Giants, do you think people would support him?
This isn't about performance. It's not like Biles is some random gymnast who sucks, kept making the team even though she sucks, and then decided eh I can't go on anymore.
This is the most decorated gymnast in American history. Give it a rest.
The fact is that none of us have a fucking clue what that young woman is going through. It's her life, her health and her future - not ours - and we're not in a position to judge her in any fashion. The only thing we can do is send some positivity her way - who fucking cares about medals and whatnot if someone is in pain - and hope she finds her way in life. As we're all trying to do.
They got to their levels of acclaim because they achieved and earned it.
What I have an issue with is the people who hail them as heroic for pulling out of events due to mental health.
It's not heroic any more than it is cowardly.
just leave them alone, let them heal, but don't make them "brave" for it.
some day the stigma of mental issue will be gone just like the first "x" person to do something. So I hate the vitriol spewed at these young athletes. But I also think some people swing too far the other way.
Wrong again. This isn't World War II man. This isn't cowardly.
She should be applauded for making that decision. I'm sure there are countless athletes who didn't make that decision that wish they could go back and do it.
lack perspective on what?
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From the kind of people I wish just didn't inhabit this planet.
It’s embarrassing, I hate reading it.
Agreed. Very many sucky people sadly.
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with Biles or Osaka pulling out of events the way they have who the fuck am I to question them.
They got to their levels of acclaim because they achieved and earned it.
What I have an issue with is the people who hail them as heroic for pulling out of events due to mental health.
It's not heroic any more than it is cowardly.
just leave them alone, let them heal, but don't make them "brave" for it.
some day the stigma of mental issue will be gone just like the first "x" person to do something. So I hate the vitriol spewed at these young athletes. But I also think some people swing too far the other way.
Wrong again. This isn't World War II man. This isn't cowardly.
She should be applauded for making that decision. I'm sure there are countless athletes who didn't make that decision that wish they could go back and do it.
Apparently you struggle as much with the written word as you do putting together a cogent thought.
I said it's *not* cowardly.
but yes, I also said it's not heroic.
It's not, it's simply a fact, she's not mentally prepared to participate, so don't participate - it's not brave or heroic for her to drop out. that makes no sense. but again for the literacy challenged it's *not* cowardly.
You need to be absolutely LASER focused or you could die or suffer serious and significant life altering injury. The fact that someone calls this woman who basically defies death and injury for a living - a coward - really it's laughable.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
Unfortunately that probably works against her with some as well.
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In comment 15314857 pjcas18 said:
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with Biles or Osaka pulling out of events the way they have who the fuck am I to question them.
They got to their levels of acclaim because they achieved and earned it.
What I have an issue with is the people who hail them as heroic for pulling out of events due to mental health.
It's not heroic any more than it is cowardly.
just leave them alone, let them heal, but don't make them "brave" for it.
some day the stigma of mental issue will be gone just like the first "x" person to do something. So I hate the vitriol spewed at these young athletes. But I also think some people swing too far the other way.
Wrong again. This isn't World War II man. This isn't cowardly.
She should be applauded for making that decision. I'm sure there are countless athletes who didn't make that decision that wish they could go back and do it.
Apparently you struggle as much with the written word as you do putting together a cogent thought.
I said it's *not* cowardly.
but yes, I also said it's not heroic.
It's not, it's simply a fact, she's not mentally prepared to participate, so don't participate - it's not brave or heroic for her to drop out. that makes no sense. but again for the literacy challenged it's *not* cowardly.
I would say heroic is subjective. Some may consider her acts heroic.
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In comment 15314857 pjcas18 said:
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with Biles or Osaka pulling out of events the way they have who the fuck am I to question them.
They got to their levels of acclaim because they achieved and earned it.
What I have an issue with is the people who hail them as heroic for pulling out of events due to mental health.
It's not heroic any more than it is cowardly.
just leave them alone, let them heal, but don't make them "brave" for it.
some day the stigma of mental issue will be gone just like the first "x" person to do something. So I hate the vitriol spewed at these young athletes. But I also think some people swing too far the other way.
Wrong again. This isn't World War II man. This isn't cowardly.
She should be applauded for making that decision. I'm sure there are countless athletes who didn't make that decision that wish they could go back and do it.
Apparently you struggle as much with the written word as you do putting together a cogent thought.
I said it's *not* cowardly.
but yes, I also said it's not heroic.
It's not, it's simply a fact, she's not mentally prepared to participate, so don't participate - it's not brave or heroic for her to drop out. that makes no sense. but again for the literacy challenged it's *not* cowardly.
I think it's pretty fucking heroic to put all of your issues out for the world to see - and despite all the pressure from fans, your country, USA Gymnastics, sponsors, peers, etc all on the biggest stage of your life - you do what's right for YOU. That's pretty fuckin badass, imo.
The twisties - ( New Window )
No one is saying being a gymnast competing on the largest stage isn't heroic. I don't know if it is or isn't - it's up to everyone to define what they view as heroic I guess.
I am saying pulling out of the Olympics due to not being mentally prepared to participate is not heroic or brave as some people have indicated.
if you think pulling out of an event for those reasons is heroic - then you do you - right back at you slick.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
What do you know about old white men, or me for that matter. Biased blank statements like this don't help anything.
No one is saying being a gymnast competing on the largest stage isn't heroic. I don't know if it is or isn't - it's up to everyone to define what they view as heroic I guess.
I am saying pulling out of the Olympics due to not being mentally prepared to participate is not heroic or brave as some people have indicated.
if you think pulling out of an event for those reasons is heroic - then you do you - right back at you slick.
I am not sure your tone is necessary. I believe you stated it as a fact that it was not heroic of Biles. I simply responded that herioc is subjective.
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for the slow ones in the back.
No one is saying being a gymnast competing on the largest stage isn't heroic. I don't know if it is or isn't - it's up to everyone to define what they view as heroic I guess.
I am saying pulling out of the Olympics due to not being mentally prepared to participate is not heroic or brave as some people have indicated.
if you think pulling out of an event for those reasons is heroic - then you do you - right back at you slick.
I am not sure your tone is necessary. I believe you stated it as a fact that it was not heroic of Biles. I simply responded that herioc is subjective.
Ok, sorry, my words are violence, you being able to tolerate them is heroic.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
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people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
What do you know about old white men, or me for that matter. Biased blank statements like this don't help anything.
B I’ve always respected you as a poster, but have to agree with this. The knee jerk reaction to throw out a veiled accusation of racism into a debate like this is BS.
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In comment 15315150 pjcas18 said:
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for the slow ones in the back.
No one is saying being a gymnast competing on the largest stage isn't heroic. I don't know if it is or isn't - it's up to everyone to define what they view as heroic I guess.
I am saying pulling out of the Olympics due to not being mentally prepared to participate is not heroic or brave as some people have indicated.
if you think pulling out of an event for those reasons is heroic - then you do you - right back at you slick.
I am not sure your tone is necessary. I believe you stated it as a fact that it was not heroic of Biles. I simply responded that herioc is subjective.
Ok, sorry, my words are violence, you being able to tolerate them is heroic.
You simply stated it as a fact that Biles was not heroic. It's not a fact either way.
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In comment 15315116 Bricktop said:
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people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
What do you know about old white men, or me for that matter. Biased blank statements like this don't help anything.
B I’ve always respected you as a poster, but have to agree with this. The knee jerk reaction to throw out a veiled accusation of racism into a debate like this is BS.
Racism? I'm not throwing any veiled accusation of anything. You're nuts. I'm speaking on my own experience with social media today. Some of my friends are comprised of dozens of old white men - and on Facebook they're all tripping over themselves criticizing Biles. It's pathetic.
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In comment 15315151 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15315116 Bricktop said:
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people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
What do you know about old white men, or me for that matter. Biased blank statements like this don't help anything.
B I’ve always respected you as a poster, but have to agree with this. The knee jerk reaction to throw out a veiled accusation of racism into a debate like this is BS.
Racism? I'm not throwing any veiled accusation of anything. You're nuts. I'm speaking on my own experience with social media today. Some of my friends are comprised of dozens of old white men - and on Facebook they're all tripping over themselves criticizing Biles. It's pathetic.
"After the vault, 'I’m not in the right headspace,'” Biles said. “I’m not going to lose a medal for this country and for these girls. They worked too hard ... it's not worth it, especially when you have three amazing athletes who can step up."
How is that not "heroic" to the team? Maybe not to someone outside, but let's just say for a minute she tried to gut it out and either hurt herself or cost the team a medal, and then afterwards the public found out she wasn't in a good mental state? She'd have been vilified. The woman has done enough. Frankly, she COULD be commended for saving the girls a chance at the Gold and getting the Silver. And she had their back. Which is another hallmark of a great team mate:
“I’m SO proud of these girls right here. You girls are incredibly brave & talented! I’ll forever be inspired by your determination to not give up and to fight through adversity! They stepped up when I couldn’t. Thanks for being there for me and having my back! Forever love y’all.”
Sounds like a roll model, at the least, if not a hero, to me.
I hope she gets well and knows that the vast majority of us Americans support her.
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In comment 15315151 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15315116 Bricktop said:
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people like Bela Karoly, his wife and the entire USA Gymnastics organization with the same - certainly more - vigor as they're criticizing someone like Biles. But that's not going to happen, because it's easier to bash a young woman than identify and understand the root causes of someone's distress.
Old white men online today are going nuts, falling all over themselves, calling her a quitter, not the GOAT, a failure - all while licking the dorito dust off their fingers and yelling at mom to bring down the mac n cheese. It's fucking pathetic.
What do you know about old white men, or me for that matter. Biased blank statements like this don't help anything.
B I’ve always respected you as a poster, but have to agree with this. The knee jerk reaction to throw out a veiled accusation of racism into a debate like this is BS.
Racism? I'm not throwing any veiled accusation of anything. You're nuts. I'm speaking on my own experience with social media today. Some of my friends are comprised of dozens of old white men - and on Facebook they're all tripping over themselves criticizing Biles. It's pathetic.
Fair enough. Same debate is raging over my college buddy group text...I’ve been dodging social media for a variety of reasons lately, but I’m well aware how ugly people get there
I was dickish in my earlier comments, and I won’t hide from that. My first reaction was to be bummed she backed out, and uncomfortable with the rush to cheer her for it. Fact is, for whatever mitigating factors, she quit in the middle of the olympics.
But always willing to at least try and look at my own blind spots. The points several have made here about the risks of gymnastics at this level are very valid. A swimmer suffering from mental difficulties may swim poorly, but they’re not going to break a limb or drown. A gymnast who’s off her game mentally may break her neck
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In comment 15315152 crick n NC said:
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In comment 15315150 pjcas18 said:
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for the slow ones in the back.
No one is saying being a gymnast competing on the largest stage isn't heroic. I don't know if it is or isn't - it's up to everyone to define what they view as heroic I guess.
I am saying pulling out of the Olympics due to not being mentally prepared to participate is not heroic or brave as some people have indicated.
if you think pulling out of an event for those reasons is heroic - then you do you - right back at you slick.
I am not sure your tone is necessary. I believe you stated it as a fact that it was not heroic of Biles. I simply responded that herioc is subjective.
Ok, sorry, my words are violence, you being able to tolerate them is heroic.
You simply stated it as a fact that Biles was not heroic. It's not a fact either way.
Fair.
It's obviously my opinion. I figured that was blatantly clear and didn't need clarifying.
First off none of this is for any of us to state definitively as fact and none of our opinions matter beyond our own sphere of influence which for most of us is probably limited.
I acknowledge pulling out was the right thing for Biles, especially since mentally she was not prepared and could have injured herself (and hurt the team).
it's completely her right to do so and it's not cowardly or wrong or letting anyone down.
However, I also believe (IMO) it's not heroic. and the takes of some people who think that with all the pressure and weight (and eyes) on her as the best in the world to do what she did is heroic or "badass" seems like a bizarre take.
I can understand the decision, but i view it more as unfortunate and sad, even if I respect it.
Certainly don't see how it's heroic. I bet she wishes she didn't have to pull out of the event, I bet she doesn't think it's heroic, I bet she views it as sad and unfortunate.
but that's obviously my opinion.
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going to cost her teammates a medal. I think saying the individual events were still on the table there is telling. Real mental health issues just don’t resolve like that without some work. I think she, or her team, realized what the optics were going to be there so pulled there as well.
I for one believe it’s a selfless move and never understood why it’s expected and even honorable to go out there when another teammate would give you a better shot. Of course that’s still the case, so it’s just easier to cite mental health issues. If what the poster said about her possibly costing them a medal is accurate.
My understanding is that they were not able to replace Biles' with the alternate, which meant that they had to use the scores from the other 3 gymnasts no matter what. Usually all 4 would compete each event and then they'd take the top 3 scores.
Absolutely incorrect.
It's 3 gymnasts per event for all teams and all scores count.
Again - any athlete is free to not compete. And with it comes reactions, both good and bad.
Link?
I hate getting caught in a lie! Damn you!
Again - any athlete is free to not compete. And with it comes reactions, both good and bad.
Forced? No, but there's a prevailing attitude of "suck it up" in American culture and especially for top athletes.
In quitting, she let some people down. Fans, sponsors, sports broadcasters. Who cares about them. But she also let down her teammates and other gymnasts who may have made the team if she quit prior to making the trip. She also let herself down, because no one wanted her to win medals more than she wanted to win them for herself. I've been to National and Olympic trials myself, and know dozens of Olympians.. they don't give a crap about winning for fans and sponsors. They want to win for themselves and their teammates.
She'll face the demons of letting herself and her teammates down for the rest of her life. All quitters do. Does that make them heroic? No way.
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of Eastern Bloc countries in the 70's and early 80's, have athletes been "forced" to compete?
Again - any athlete is free to not compete. And with it comes reactions, both good and bad.
Forced? No, but there's a prevailing attitude of "suck it up" in American culture and especially for top athletes.
While we Americans can be ugly in a variety of ways, I don’t think we have any monopoly on that attitude.
Shit my buddy from Colombia often reminds us they once shot the guy who allowed an embarrassing own goal in the World Cup years ago
I’m happy for her, that she had the wherewithal and confidence to step back and not hurt herself physically, and secondarily allow someone to step in and help the team.
It’s like a race car driver pulling out of race when their head isn’t straight. Nothing good comes out of putting yourself at risk. You get your head right, and either get back at it or retire.
All very normal things in competitive sports.
I feel for her, but I also feel for the other person.
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In comment 15315193 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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of Eastern Bloc countries in the 70's and early 80's, have athletes been "forced" to compete?
Again - any athlete is free to not compete. And with it comes reactions, both good and bad.
Forced? No, but there's a prevailing attitude of "suck it up" in American culture and especially for top athletes.
While we Americans can be ugly in a variety of ways, I don’t think we have any monopoly on that attitude.
Shit my buddy from Colombia often reminds us they once shot the guy who allowed an embarrassing own goal in the World Cup years ago
Oh that's absolutely true, it's pervasive. Just in the context of this conversation I focused on the US.
But it happens everywhere with every sport.
It was a personal decision carried out in the public eye, but we are seemingly programmed with having to label everything to fit an opinion.
To me, this was a personal choice that was made that is neither cowardly nor heroic. Just as any athlete leaving a contest due to an injury or event is heroic or cowardly
In fact, when she returned to cheer on her team the other night instead of sulking in the locker room was an act on monumental courage.
Back in the day, others had to tough it out (Jennifer Capriati, Andrea Jaeger) with predictable results.
She'll pay the price, maybe even regret what she did, but the combination of the weight of world expectations on her shoulders + Covid it's understandable what happened, maybe even predictable.
Stay strong Simone.
And I'm struggling with how the reaction is ascribed to old white men...
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In comment 15315193 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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of Eastern Bloc countries in the 70's and early 80's, have athletes been "forced" to compete?
Again - any athlete is free to not compete. And with it comes reactions, both good and bad.
Forced? No, but there's a prevailing attitude of "suck it up" in American culture and especially for top athletes.
While we Americans can be ugly in a variety of ways, I don’t think we have any monopoly on that attitude.
Shit my buddy from Colombia often reminds us they once shot the guy who allowed an embarrassing own goal in the World Cup years ago
That was wild. I think this link is it, the 1994 loss to the USA where the guy scored an on-goal. I read the shooter shouted "goal" when they shot him.
Link - ( New Window )
But pulling out due to "the twisties" in the warm-up so as to not put herself at risk of extreme injury (or hurt her team's chances) is thought of as brave by many precisely because of the stigma with mental issues. If arguably the best of all time could "get the twisties," then it's okay when others do as well.
If arguably the greatest of all time could pull herself off of the biggest stage at the last minute because she mentally lost control of her body and was not in the right place to compete safely or help her team, then it liberates others to do the same when they are struggling and would otherwise feel pressured to to put themselves at risk of catastrophic injury.
It also pushes the conversation forward about mental health, generally-- especially showing how even successful, talented people struggle.
I'd also disagree with the description as "not mentally prepared to participate." That seems a bit callous, as if it was a failing of effort on her part.
If an athlete tweaked or aggravated something in pre-game warm-ups and couldn't go, I can't imagine any reasonable person would describe that player as "not physically prepared." Rather, the person would just be out with an injury.
But pulling out due to "the twisties" in the warm-up so as to not put herself at risk of extreme injury (or hurt her team's chances) is thought of as brave by many precisely because of the stigma with mental issues. If arguably the best of all time could "get the twisties," then it's okay when others do as well.
If arguably the greatest of all time could pull herself off of the biggest stage at the last minute because she mentally lost control of her body and was not in the right place to compete safely or help her team, then it liberates others to do the same when they are struggling and would otherwise feel pressured to to put themselves at risk of catastrophic injury.
It also pushes the conversation forward about mental health, generally-- especially showing how even successful, talented people struggle.
I'd also disagree with the description as "not mentally prepared to participate." That seems a bit callous, as if it was a failing of effort on her part.
If an athlete tweaked or aggravated something in pre-game warm-ups and couldn't go, I can't imagine any reasonable person would describe that player as "not physically prepared." Rather, the person would just be out with an injury.
I think this is an excellent POV
Forget it...he's rolling.
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struggling with the need to label it either heroic or the move of a loser.
And I'm struggling with how the reaction is ascribed to old white men...
As I succinctly Fucking explained above - all over MY social media are old white dudes posting from their couch, criticizing the actions of a 24 year old young woman who has accomplished more in her short life than they could in 10 lifetimes.
Only when someone brought up race did it occur to me what they were insinuating.
Don't get your granny panties all twisted in a fuckin knot.
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In comment 15315217 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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struggling with the need to label it either heroic or the move of a loser.
And I'm struggling with how the reaction is ascribed to old white men...
As I succinctly Fucking explained above - all over MY social media are old white dudes posting from their couch, criticizing the actions of a 24 year old young woman who has accomplished more in her short life than they could in 10 lifetimes.
Only when someone brought up race did it occur to me what they were insinuating.
Don't get your granny panties all twisted in a fuckin knot.
Well... you certainly have shown that you have the pulse on old white men. You have a gift.
But pulling out due to "the twisties" in the warm-up so as to not put herself at risk of extreme injury (or hurt her team's chances) is thought of as brave by many precisely because of the stigma with mental issues. If arguably the best of all time could "get the twisties," then it's okay when others do as well.
If arguably the greatest of all time could pull herself off of the biggest stage at the last minute because she mentally lost control of her body and was not in the right place to compete safely or help her team, then it liberates others to do the same when they are struggling and would otherwise feel pressured to to put themselves at risk of catastrophic injury.
It also pushes the conversation forward about mental health, generally-- especially showing how even successful, talented people struggle.
I'd also disagree with the description as "not mentally prepared to participate." That seems a bit callous, as if it was a failing of effort on her part.
If an athlete tweaked or aggravated something in pre-game warm-ups and couldn't go, I can't imagine any reasonable person would describe that player as "not physically prepared." Rather, the person would just be out with an injury.
this is semantics and strictly your interpretation of my words. When I wrote "not mentally prepared to participate" my intent with those words was not suggesting she failed. If you viewed it that way, that's your preconception not mine. It's simply a fact and I think that's what she even said or something close to that. Or something like she was "not there" mentally. Again semantics and sensitivity - seeing intent when there was none.
Biles own words for today were she is taking a "mental rest day" - maybe you find her own words offensive about her situation too because rest insinuates she's tired.
Duh! I know that. And like I said, the fact that she came back and rooted for the TEAM was brave.
BUT, gymnastics is essentially an individual sport with your individual scores NOT dependent on anyone else's performance unlike team sports like football, basketball, hockey, etc. Under this *team* concept you just add 'em up at the end and get a number. You are not competing with anyone else while you are preforming. To me, that's an individual sport jerry-rigged into a team concept.
Moreover, I was commenting about her withdrawal from the INDIVIDUAL event tomorrow which was the subject of the thread.
Usually, when someone is described as "not prepared," the implication was do to a lack of effort of some kind of the subject's part.
"Rest" is also used for injury recovery and prevention as well and not just being "tired."
You obviously also missed the ridiculousness and lack of self-awareness of your "old white man" statement.
Usually, when someone is described as "not prepared," the implication was do to a lack of effort of some kind of the subject's part.
"Rest" is also used for injury recovery and prevention as well and not just being "tired."
Here is a quote from the NY Times to maybe get you off my case, where Biles agrees with me.
So, enough with the white knighting.
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And "white knighting?" Because I'm advocating for mental health issues? Grow up.
And "white knighting?" Because I'm advocating for mental health issues? Grow up.
You're white knighting because multiple people used words "not mentally prepared" that you took offense to with your inane parsing of words seeing intent to malign where none existed.
Except in your mind.
it's especially cringey since, again, the intent to be critical isn't there and you are being beyond pedantic analyzing word choice.
this is done. over. you made your point (which is wrong) and you're sticking with it, you have every right to continue showing your ass.
I feel for her, but I also feel for the other person.
The other person wasn't good enough to make the team.
Tons of people find it hard to be self aware or "break through" a loaded emotional situation.
If mental health care workers want to label it as a learning moment example for the many many people who they try to help live more courageous lives...im fine with that use of an object lesson from a sad situation.
How does any of that largely unknownable and harmless stew affect a grown man who doesn't know the sport or the person?
On the other hand it's a good thread to see easily and clearly what is not at all an act of courage or heroism
Um...what?
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Think about the next gymnast that would've made it had Biles made this decision before the Olympics started. She stole that opportunity of a lifetime from someone who busted their tail for it.
I feel for her, but I also feel for the other person.
The other person wasn't good enough to make the team.
Lost on this "opinion" is the fact that this happened during warmups. She didn't steal anything from anyone, its such a garbage take.
In a way, she turned the house on the casino. She was at the epic top peak of earning potential and took the endorsers for a ride. Whether intentional or unintentional it doesn't matter. But I bet marketing teams will rethink their formula for investing in amateur athletes to promote their product based on what happed here going forward.
Holy shit.
You LOSE the internet today. What a fuckin jackass.
WTF?
She did the smart thing to recognize it and back out, not hurt herself and let the team try to pick her up. Just like she has done for other US teams over her entire career. The team did the best they could and got the Silver.
Biles has had a fantastic Olympic career.
There is nothing else here.
I'm late to the party, but this hits the nail on the head for me. Why argue about whether what Biles did is "heroic" or not? I'm not sure why people feel the need to take an extreme stance on this one way or the other, given the limited perspective that everyone who isn't an olympic gymnast has.
Why can't it just be - Simone Biles did the right thing and I'm glad she didn't get hurt?
I know Kerri Strug was mentioned a couple of times in this thread, but in case anyone doesn't know the details - she was persuaded to compete on a badly injured leg and - after protesting that she couldn't compete on television for the whole world to see - she was forced to compete anyway and injured herself even worse. She was then forced to retire at age 18. We then learned after the fact that her competing wasn't even necessary and her team would've won gold anyway. This is someone who started training at age 3.
That's not heroism. That's a waste.
No one is making you call her a hero. No one is making you watch news coverage or read an article calling her a hero. If you don’t like her being called a hero, move on, it really is that simple.
We call people legends, goats, role models, etc, but apparently the word hero is a big no no, it’s bizarre.
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Why can't it just be - Simone Biles did the right thing and I'm glad she didn't get hurt?
Because rational, reasonable, and non-inflammatory responses are not welcome in the age of spicy 280 character hot takes.
It was a personal decision carried out in the public eye, but we are seemingly programmed with having to label everything to fit an opinion.
To me, this was a personal choice that was made that is neither cowardly nor heroic. Just as any athlete leaving a contest due to an injury or event is heroic or cowardly
I mostly agree with this. Heroic might be a bit of an overstatement, but there is still a stigma attached to mental health, and discussing it publicly does take some courage. As others have stated, the complexities of her routines leave chance for serious injury if she isn't right, so I give her credit for recognizing that and acting on it.
As she said, she felt her team had a better chance of medalling if she didn't perform.
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In comment 15315214 christian said:
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Why can't it just be - Simone Biles did the right thing and I'm glad she didn't get hurt?
Because rational, reasonable, and non-inflammatory responses are not welcome in the age of spicy 280 character hot takes.
That’s just it though, calling her a hero isn’t inflammatory.
Yeah, usually heroism is simply something we apply towards someone who's willing to perform against their own best interests in order to conform to our wants.
She noticed it on her first run vault run which required her to do 2 1/2 twists of her body. She got lost mid-twist and only accomplished 1 1/2 twist. Supposedly getting the twisties means your mind is not connecting right with your body.
Given those factors I don't blame her
That is not diminishing the impact of mental health. But, if it is really this "twisties", then the decision is purely self preservation. If there are underlying mental health issues, then I don't think she is above some questions. I wouldn't say criticism is warranted, but isn't at least fair to question where her head was prior and whether the fair outcome would have been to decline her spot from the beginning and let someone else make the trip to Japan?
On the flip side, the criticism calling her a coward, a traitor, turning her back on her country, etc. are ignorant and reprehensible.
& all too predictable. I have co-workers who are rooting AGAINST the US women's national soccer team for reasons I won't get into here. & how one can root against a team with that smokeshow Alex Morgan on it...I will never understand.
& all too predictable. I have co-workers who are rooting AGAINST the US women's national soccer team for reasons I won't get into here. & how one can root against a team with that smokeshow Alex Morgan on it...I will never understand.
I don't get that either. Ihave read more about their pay battle and changed my stance of support on that issue. But, in general, how are they un-American or traitors for supporting social, racial, and gender justice? This opens a whole other can of worms that I don't think belongs here. But, just in general, how is it not hypocritical to call them traitors and criticize them as disrespecting their country and then you rooting against them? Isn't that unpatriotic?
Forget Megan Rapinoe and her Blanka purple hair.
The trouble with the phrase “mental health” is that it’s an abstraction that allows you to sail right straight over what happened to Simone Biles and, in a way, what is still happening to her. To this day, American Olympic officials continue to betray her. They deny that they had a legal duty to protect her and others from rapist-child pornographer Larry Nassar, and they continue to evade accountability in judicial maneuvering. Abuse is a current event for her.
It’s a perilous endeavor to project what Biles, the most uniquely superior gymnast in the world, is feeling or thinking at this juncture. But she has been frank about these things: her profound lingering distrust of USA Gymnastics and the USOPC and her conviction they will not do right by her and other athletes of their own accord. Remember, if it wasn’t for Biles bringing her clout to the issue, these users would still be making women train in the buggy squalor of the Karolyi Ranch, the USOPC-sanctioned hellhole where they were molested.
As Biles told NBC’s Hoda Kotb in a recent interview, one of the main reasons she came back for another Olympics at age 24 was to try to ensure some accountability. “If there weren’t a remaining survivor in the sport, they would’ve just brushed it to the side,” she said.
Yes, Simone is hero for pushing through all of this and supporting her younger and less powerful teammates. And as is often the case, the USOC is a bunch of cowards.
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Simone Biles was abandoned by American Olympic officials, and the torment hasn’t stopped
The trouble with the phrase “mental health” is that it’s an abstraction that allows you to sail right straight over what happened to Simone Biles and, in a way, what is still happening to her. To this day, American Olympic officials continue to betray her. They deny that they had a legal duty to protect her and others from rapist-child pornographer Larry Nassar, and they continue to evade accountability in judicial maneuvering. Abuse is a current event for her.
It’s a perilous endeavor to project what Biles, the most uniquely superior gymnast in the world, is feeling or thinking at this juncture. But she has been frank about these things: her profound lingering distrust of USA Gymnastics and the USOPC and her conviction they will not do right by her and other athletes of their own accord. Remember, if it wasn’t for Biles bringing her clout to the issue, these users would still be making women train in the buggy squalor of the Karolyi Ranch, the USOPC-sanctioned hellhole where they were molested.
As Biles told NBC’s Hoda Kotb in a recent interview, one of the main reasons she came back for another Olympics at age 24 was to try to ensure some accountability. “If there weren’t a remaining survivor in the sport, they would’ve just brushed it to the side,” she said.
Yes, Simone is hero for pushing through all of this and supporting her younger and less powerful teammates. And as is often the case, the USOC is a bunch of cowards.
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US gymnastics as an organization is seedy and disgusting, to say the least, and has been for a while. I'm frankly surprised we've still got high quality athletes in women's gymnastics because what parent would want to trust US gymnastics with their daughter with their history?
That's the real point.
Some or those slime balls are at the Olympics pretending the sport is them.
That alone is enough to trigger someone.
US Gymnastics ( especially recent past) is an abusive bucket for some of these young women.
Who got suspended?