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22. Daniel Jones Tier 1 votes: 1 | Tier 3 votes: 28 | Tier 4 votes: 20 | Tier 5 votes: 1 | 2020 Tier: 3 The vote distribution for Jones this year is nearly identical to the distribution last year. Then as now, voters want to know why Jones holds the ball and suffers too many turnovers (a league-high 39 over the past two seasons, in 27 games). Is he a slow processor? Does he struggle to see the field? Will he build on whatever incremental progress was made last season? “Playing him, the thing that scares you the most about him was his ability to run with the ball,” a defensive coach said. “They were running some of the zone-read stuff, but he was running away from secondary guys. He also had the ability to throw the ball, but he was not consistent.” The return of Saquon Barkley and the additions of Kenny Golladay, Kadarius Toney and Kyle Rudolph have raised expectations. “They are built to be a seven-on-seven team with the weapons they have, and if he cannot put up points with this group, he never will be able to,” an exec said. The Giants averaged 17.4 offensive points per game in Jones’ starts last season, slightly less than the 1-15 Jaguars averaged. That was down from 19.7 during Jones’ 2019 rookie season. “The way of the NFL now is to rush these guys to be great early,” a quarterbacks coach said. “They are not given a chance to just develop and learn the game. Some guys come in right away and play well, but other guys need 2-3 years and then they are ready to roll.” The Bills’ Allen comes to mind in that latter group. He had a dozen fewer turnovers through two seasons than Jones has suffered. “Jones’ fatal flaw has been the turnovers, but it’s because he holds the ball too long,” a defensive coach said. “That worries me all the time. Sometimes it is a product of the offense. I’m not sure that is the case there. It’s like he doesn’t see things all the time. Philly ended the game with a strip-sack, not because they got a great rush, but because he holds the ball a long time. I worry that he cannot get past that.” A longtime offensive coach compared Jones to Dalton a decade ago. Put an excellent team around him and he’ll have a chance. Take away the above-average supporting cast, and prepare to struggle. Jones’ athleticism does separate him. He had an 80-yard run against the Eagles, punctuated by an open-field stumble. “I think there is enough ability there,” an exec said. “You can start and win with him. He’s another guy, two different coaches, a couple of different offenses, haven’t really had a lot of weapons around him. They tried to upgrade that this offseason and they got Saquon Barkley coming back. This will be the truest evaluation of him.” |
I'll repeat this, this year for Darnold/Rhule and Jones/Judge will be so fascinating, since the former had so many links to the Giants. Almost a what might have been season. Will be great to watch unfold.
I completely agree he's above Darnold.
Make or break…
Is it possible it's not going to be nearly as much of a problem this year when he'll have receivers who can actually get TF open (or be open when they're not, ie, catch contested passes like KG and KR)?
I believe so. Will find out pretty soon.
I agree, if he can move up into the bottom of tier 2 it would be a welcomed improvement. For him to move higher he is going to need to show not only elevated play but the ability to elevated the play of those around him. For me that is the biggest step he needs to make.
That analysis from NFL Next Gen stats measures the separation at the point when the quarterback throws the football.
That data point could very well be more of an indictment of when and to whom the QB threw the ball.
If Jones has trouble seeing the field or processing his reads, this metric isn’t likely to improve.
Shepard, Engram, Slayton and even Tate aren’t slow footed, bad route runners. There’s more to this issue.
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in terms of getting separation, would that not affect how long a young QB holds onto the ball (as well as his decision making)?
That analysis from NFL Next Gen stats measures the separation at the point when the quarterback throws the football.
That data point could very well be more of an indictment of when and to whom the QB threw the ball.
If Jones has trouble seeing the field or processing his reads, this metric isn’t likely to improve.
Shepard, Engram, Slayton and even Tate aren’t slow footed, bad route runners. There’s more to this issue.
Also, most receivers don't get a ton of separation in general. It's pros vs pros. It's throwing to where the receiver will be able to catch it vs waiting for a receiver to be open. If you're waiting for someone to be open before throwing then you're usually already too late. This isn't college or high school ball.
22. Daniel Jones
Tier 2 votes: 1 | Tier 3 votes: 28 | Tier 4 votes: 20 | Tier 5 votes: 1 | 2020 Tier: 3
One thing is for certain with him though, the kid puts the work in, seems respected by his teammates and represents the team very well. I hope he takes the Josh Allen jump this year and we don't have to pick another QB in next years draft.
I actually took it as a positive and hopefully he gains the confidence in himself and the target to just make a play while being smart and not reckless.
What if he takes a big step forward this season?
I actually took it as a positive and hopefully he gains the confidence in himself and the target to just make a play while being smart and not reckless.
This is the shit that many fans either don't hear or don't care to hear.
If the Giants didn't think Jones was more likely to step forward than what the stats say, they wouldn't be building this thing around him. Doesn't mean they are right, but they aren't just blindly or stubbornly going full steam ahead and spitting in the face of logic.
If the QB is doing everything right but the wins and stats are not manifesting, teams will stick with that QB because there's plenty of reasons to expect things to get to a good place. Conversely, the NFL historical landscape is littered with QBs who peaked early because of talent and maybe even a little luck, only to fall apart by year 3-4-5. Why? Because they weren't cerebral. They didn't outwork everyone. They weren't receptive to coaching.
It goes both ways.
Tier 1: 5. Rodgers/Mahomes (T1, unanimous votes), Brady, Wilson, Watson
Tier 2: 9. Allen, Jackson, Stafford, Prescott, Herbert, Ryan, Murray, Tannehill, Burrow
Tier 3: 9. Carr, Big Ben, Baker, Cousins, Goff, Wentz, Jimmy G, Jones, Fitzpatrick
Tier 4: 11. Darnold, Winston, Bridgewater, Newton, Dalton, Tua, Hurts, Lock, Taylor, Hill, Flacco
Debatable but at first glance...
This is the shit that many fans either don't hear or don't care to hear.
If the Giants didn't think Jones was more likely to step forward than what the stats say, they wouldn't be building this thing around him.
This!
I think I like Judge. I think I trust him. I think that he's good at his job.
I could be WAY off here, but I'd bet he's better at his job than our resident analysts.
It's training camp. Optimism is peaking.
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a few months ago with Garrett being interviewed. He spoke about DJ and one thing that I found very interesting was that he said he is making the correct reads and now he has to just "let it rip". Most QB's fail for not being able to make the correct read.
I actually took it as a positive and hopefully he gains the confidence in himself and the target to just make a play while being smart and not reckless.
This is the shit that many fans either don't hear or don't care to hear.
If the Giants didn't think Jones was more likely to step forward than what the stats say, they wouldn't be building this thing around him. Doesn't mean they are right, but they aren't just blindly or stubbornly going full steam ahead and spitting in the face of logic.
If the QB is doing everything right but the wins and stats are not manifesting, teams will stick with that QB because there's plenty of reasons to expect things to get to a good place. Conversely, the NFL historical landscape is littered with QBs who peaked early because of talent and maybe even a little luck, only to fall apart by year 3-4-5. Why? Because they weren't cerebral. They didn't outwork everyone. They weren't receptive to coaching.
It goes both ways.
Agreed. I think the article is a fair assessment. The difference between the pessimists and I is the belief (and the biggest reason for my bullishness on him) is it's a confidence thing. I totally agree that he seems to be making the correct reads but is just not "letting it rip". Case in point that 2 pt conversion where you can see he sees it, but he hesitates. That's a confidence thing. Will he break that? Maybe. I think he will. Slight improvements all around will breed success, and success breeds confidence (which breeds more success). This is the way I see the season going down as LONG AS the OL improves as well. It's definitely going to be an interesting year.
In what fucking world is this team built to be a 7 on 7 team? Couldn’t be further from the truth. If Judge read that comment he’d probably lose it laughing.
I'd rather have him starting than Lock or Bridgewater. IF a higher draft pick put up those numbers, I think he'd be in tier 2 or 3.
That's not necessarily true. It may have nothing to do with confidence, and more to do with the speed at which information flows from his eyes, to his brain, and then to action.
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Case in point that 2 pt conversion where you can see he sees it, but he hesitates. That's a confidence thing.
That's not necessarily true. It may have nothing to do with confidence, and more to do with the speed at which information flows from his eyes, to his brain, and then to action.
Of course. No one is saying that is true, we each have our opinions. My opinion is it's more of a confidence thing. Especially based on the OL issues and the coaching/system changes in his 2nd year with no preseason or camp. He could fail epically... lol. But based on his progression before and after that hamstring injury, I fully believe it's more a confidence thing. I really believe this offense breaks out quite a bit especially if the OL also improves.
For sure. I think that's what any of us are terrified of, because he clearly doesn't have that "my spidey senses are tingling" like Mahomes... lol. But does he need to? Or better question at what level does it need to be for him to be successful. He has a lot of good attributes as do all drafted QBs. I believe many of the failures these guys suffer is where they land... scheme, coaching, and impatience certainly plays it's part in the quagmire of failed QBs... lol. Ultimately I think he has the tools, and I think they will scheme well for him this year, as long as it's more of a confidence thing than processing power... which I believe it is.
Btw last year Kyler Murray and Josh Allen were both tier 3. Josh Allen was actually #22 on last year's list. I think it's hard to understate the impact Hopkins and Diggs had on both of those guys in their ascension last year.
It’s insinuating this is going to be a pass happy, high scoring offense aka 7 on 7. The personnel doesn’t say that at all. We have added NFL talent to the outside is what we did and we have an OL that is much better at run blocking than pass blocking with an elite back. If you took out top 3 receiving threats and compared it around the league it’s top half, but nothing to say we would be pass happy, especially considering the offensive line situation.
Kyle Rudolph? I think expectations are way too high for him, still a great red zone threat and nice check down piece on 3rd and medium, but he’s not the same player he was, and even at his best wasn’t an elite TE. Golladay is a top 10 wr probably, but once again not elite. Shephard and Slayton are both solid in their roles, but nothing special. The real X factor is Toney, but he’s a rookie that went 20th. This is an offense that is going to flow through the run game or we really open up the offensive line to exposure, and we don’t have the elite talent on outside for it to make any sense to deviate from that for the most part. I’ll eat my hat if this is a 7 on 7 offense week to week. I’m sure we will see some pass happy games occasionally when the opponent doesn’t match up well on outside with a poor pass rush, but that’s only a handful of teams.
I hope winning first down is a major emphasis this camp. If they can do this with more consistency turnovers will improve and they will open up the bigger chunk plays downfield.
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None of those descriptions scream "second contract". That's the important consideration at this point.
What if he takes a big step forward this season?
That applies to anyone. What if Jon Ross turns into Marvin Harrison this season? Then yeah, that changes things. But until then Ross is Ross and Jones is Jones.
Lamar Jackson - #7
Justin Herbert - #10
Great job, front office.
It is like a compulsion at this point.
I'm sure they think there's a point to it, but most of us just shake our heads.
It's actually quite reflective of the way in which people want to twist anything into something positive for Jones that it was said that this is a positive thread on him while ranked #22. That's actually a microcosm for a lot of the threads that bother people I think, a lot of the tone here seems to be like "hey, aren't you so excited to see the #22 QB in the league take the field this season?!!"
I'm like no, not really, in fact it's a little frustrating to feel like the rest of the team might really be taking shape and our #6 pick QB and #2 pick RB are big question marks. Not to mention an OL that has plagued us for pretty much a decade now. And even a little more frustrating that expressing these ideas seems to be increasingly twisted into people rooting against the Giants. Nothing would make me happier than seeing Jones take a big step forward, that doesn't mean we should act like we should be happy with how he's played to date and who he's shown to be as a QB. No one should be happy to have the #22nd ranked QB two full seasons after they were drafted #6, no one
It is like a compulsion at this point.
You mean like a compulsion to join every one of these same DJ threads and bitch and moan at those very same posters?
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...likely a compliment to what the Giants have built around DJ. The reference being that 7v7 games are high scoring affairs.
It’s insinuating this is going to be a pass happy, high scoring offense aka 7 on 7. The personnel doesn’t say that at all. We have added NFL talent to the outside is what we did and we have an OL that is much better at run blocking than pass blocking with an elite back. If you took out top 3 receiving threats and compared it around the league it’s top half, but nothing to say we would be pass happy, especially considering the offensive line situation.
Kyle Rudolph? I think expectations are way too high for him, still a great red zone threat and nice check down piece on 3rd and medium, but he’s not the same player he was, and even at his best wasn’t an elite TE. Golladay is a top 10 wr probably, but once again not elite. Shephard and Slayton are both solid in their roles, but nothing special. The real X factor is Toney, but he’s a rookie that went 20th. This is an offense that is going to flow through the run game or we really open up the offensive line to exposure, and we don’t have the elite talent on outside for it to make any sense to deviate from that for the most part. I’ll eat my hat if this is a 7 on 7 offense week to week. I’m sure we will see some pass happy games occasionally when the opponent doesn’t match up well on outside with a poor pass rush, but that’s only a handful of teams.
If Rudolph can be a solid blocker and red-zone target, it'll have been a good signing (he hasn't dropped a pass in two years). That being said, we should probably look at drafting a tight end early next draft since Engram is up at the end of this year (5th year option) and Rudolph is a) getting along in years and b) a FA after 2022.
Lamar Jackson - #7
Justin Herbert - #10
Great job, front office.
if you are going to value the rankings Josh Allen was #22 last year (entering year 3 same as Jones) and #29 the year before (year 2) after his rookie season, with a problem the expert commentators thought was an unfixable fatal flaw (his inaccuracy and 56% completion % through 2 years). Lamar Jackson was #28 going into his year 2. Herbert was unranked last year because he was a rookie.
Either Jones takes the Allen/Murray step forward this year or he doesn't. The insistence that it's already a foregone conclusion he won't or can't is tiresome. Mayfield has been in the league 1 year longer and he could still go either way too.
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another thread where any positive news about Jones has to be shouted down by a specific few.
It is like a compulsion at this point.
You mean like a compulsion to join every one of these same DJ threads and bitch and moan at those very same posters?
I'm sure you can point to new information being shared, right Clownshoes?
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Josh Allen - #6
Lamar Jackson - #7
Justin Herbert - #10
Great job, front office.
if you are going to value the rankings Josh Allen was #22 last year (entering year 3 same as Jones) and #29 the year before (year 2) after his rookie season, with a problem the expert commentators thought was an unfixable fatal flaw (his inaccuracy and 56% completion % through 2 years). Lamar Jackson was #28 going into his year 2. Herbert was unranked last year because he was a rookie.
Either Jones takes the Allen/Murray step forward this year or he doesn't. The insistence that it's already a foregone conclusion he won't or can't is tiresome. Mayfield has been in the league 1 year longer and he could still go either way too.
I'd say there's as much insistence that he's going to take a leap like Allen
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In comment 15315485 Go Terps said:
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Josh Allen - #6
Lamar Jackson - #7
Justin Herbert - #10
Great job, front office.
if you are going to value the rankings Josh Allen was #22 last year (entering year 3 same as Jones) and #29 the year before (year 2) after his rookie season, with a problem the expert commentators thought was an unfixable fatal flaw (his inaccuracy and 56% completion % through 2 years). Lamar Jackson was #28 going into his year 2. Herbert was unranked last year because he was a rookie.
Either Jones takes the Allen/Murray step forward this year or he doesn't. The insistence that it's already a foregone conclusion he won't or can't is tiresome. Mayfield has been in the league 1 year longer and he could still go either way too.
I'd say there's as much insistence that he's going to take a leap like Allen
I am hopeful and in the wait and see camp, but why shouldn’t there be more optimism than pessimism among fans?
We want the team we follow to succeed and having other fans crap all over things that haven’t come to pass yet annoying. Will they celebrate if they are correct?
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In comment 15315562 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15315485 Go Terps said:
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Josh Allen - #6
Lamar Jackson - #7
Justin Herbert - #10
Great job, front office.
if you are going to value the rankings Josh Allen was #22 last year (entering year 3 same as Jones) and #29 the year before (year 2) after his rookie season, with a problem the expert commentators thought was an unfixable fatal flaw (his inaccuracy and 56% completion % through 2 years). Lamar Jackson was #28 going into his year 2. Herbert was unranked last year because he was a rookie.
Either Jones takes the Allen/Murray step forward this year or he doesn't. The insistence that it's already a foregone conclusion he won't or can't is tiresome. Mayfield has been in the league 1 year longer and he could still go either way too.
I'd say there's as much insistence that he's going to take a leap like Allen
I am hopeful and in the wait and see camp, but why shouldn’t there be more optimism than pessimism among fans?
We want the team we follow to succeed and having other fans crap all over things that haven’t come to pass yet annoying. Will they celebrate if they are correct?
I don't believe the team deserves the benefit of the doubt until they actually prove it on the field. That goes for the team overall and Jones. So put me solidly in the I'll believe it when it happens camp.
As far as celebrating if they're correct, with the amount of crap hurled at BW and GT I wouldn't blame them for it. Not to say they're rooting for the Giants to lose, but they certainly would be entitled to an I told you so or 5.
Although some "optimists" have already expressed how they'll spin a poor season by the Giants to continue dumping on BW and GT
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In comment 15315513 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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another thread where any positive news about Jones has to be shouted down by a specific few.
It is like a compulsion at this point.
You mean like a compulsion to join every one of these same DJ threads and bitch and moan at those very same posters?
I'm sure you can point to new information being shared, right Clownshoes?
New information...you mean besides the new survey that was the theme of the thread? The thread that you took so much time reading through that you described it as “positive news” ? The positive news in your view being our 3rd year starting QB was being ranked as #22 in the league?
It’s ponderous you want to act like the compulsive behavior isn’t yours...
I don't think a person so fucked up that they would exist on the board after being banned and then tell others they were wrong for calling it out should talk about compulsion.
But then again, you spend most of the time telling people what posts are bad by them. Or bad looks. From a guy kicked off the board.
Compulsion and hypocrisy. Good stuff, Clownshoes.