Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
It's the gamble of the year for sure.
If you believe Mr. Hog Mollie, he was looking at OLs in the draft but the ones he targeted kept getting plucked away before we picked. And apparently in the second and third rounds. Which begs the question - if you had OLs on your radar high in the draft, and you missed out, why didn't you look for more solutions in free agency?
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
Or, It could be brilliant.
Don’t confuse neglect combined with luck as brilliance
It is getting beyond annoying to see the same bullshit - what is basically a bunch of "yeah, buts" - they drafted 3 the year before. There were only 6 picks this. They needed ERs, DB and WRs too.
We all want a good line. And IMHO, talent is one thing but coaching is every bit as important, if not more. Yea, Yea, Yea...it is the latest what have they done lately.
RE: RE: Putting it all on development and Rob Sale
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
It's the gamble of the year for sure.
If you believe Mr. Hog Mollie, he was looking at OLs in the draft but the ones he targeted kept getting plucked away before we picked. And apparently in the second and third rounds. Which begs the question - if you had OLs on your radar high in the draft, and you missed out, why didn't you look for more solutions in free agency?
Getting OL in FA is probably the most overpriced position in the NFL as far as money to talent goes. The worst position group to be bad at in NFL is OL, so teams get very desperate. The draft is after FA and this team desperately needed help on outside more than it did along the OL. What we rolled out there last year was absolutely putrid and hamstrung the offense the second half of the year, not the OL.
Then Adoree became available, which once again, 2nd corner was a much bigger need. If he didn't, I wouldn't be surprised if we went for some OL help. Drafting OL and developing them is a much better proposition, just didn't happen that way this year. I have nothing to base this on, but I think if AVG dropped a little further, we have tried for a small trade up. Too hard to turn that extra first down though to sit there and take him up at 11 though.
could not have been addressed in one draft and free agency period. We need to trust that last years rookies will take a step up too. The front office seems to believe that is happening. Hopefully Lemieux's injury is minor.
RE: RE: Putting it all on development and Rob Sale
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
It's the gamble of the year for sure.
If you believe Mr. Hog Mollie, he was looking at OLs in the draft but the ones he targeted kept getting plucked away before we picked. And apparently in the second and third rounds. Which begs the question - if you had OLs on your radar high in the draft, and you missed out, why didn't you look for more solutions in free agency?
They drafted 3 offensive linemen last year. They signed 2 free agents this year in Fulton and Harrison. They brought back solder and brought in Brett heggie as an udfa. They have added players in the last 2 years and spent premium picks.
There is still options on this team depending on the injury to lemieux. Fulton has starting experience. Harrison might get a look. Maybe heggie or Harrison can play center and gates can move to guard if needed.
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
It's the gamble of the year for sure.
If you believe Mr. Hog Mollie, he was looking at OLs in the draft but the ones he targeted kept getting plucked away before we picked. And apparently in the second and third rounds. Which begs the question - if you had OLs on your radar high in the draft, and you missed out, why didn't you look for more solutions in free agency?
Well, for one thing, free agency came before the draft, so they might have chosen to do little in the way of FA OL, with the hope that they could tap a decent OL prospect in the draft. Best laid plans and all that. Clearly, though, they put a higher priority on WR, ER, and CB, as well as stockpiling draft capital for the future.
I wouldn't have gone that route. I would have drafted Slater or Vera-Tucker at 11 (even if Smith was still on the board), but that's just me.
So, you could say they gambled on what they already had at OL being enough. I look at it as taking a calculated risk...semantics, I know.
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
There were few, if any, times during the 2021 NFL Draft where OL was BPA. Would you have given up Ojulari and a 2022 draft pick for Eichenberg? Maybe we could have drafted Trey Smith in Round 6, but who knows about his meds and our coaching staff would have inside knowledge about whether he would be a fit for what we want to do.
Give it a couple of weeks. Getts can then bring back Kelvin Benjamin
have said it's a knee. But there may not be more details until Judge talks tomorrow.
Quote:
- Near the end of practice, projected starting left guard Shane Lemieux was carted off the field with what the Giants are calling a knee injury. Joe Judge won’t speak until before Friday’s practice, so there are no updates on Lemieux’s health as of yet.
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
It's the gamble of the year for sure.
If you believe Mr. Hog Mollie, he was looking at OLs in the draft but the ones he targeted kept getting plucked away before we picked. And apparently in the second and third rounds. Which begs the question - if you had OLs on your radar high in the draft, and you missed out, why didn't you look for more solutions in free agency?
Getting OL in FA is probably the most overpriced position in the NFL as far as money to talent goes. The worst position group to be bad at in NFL is OL, so teams get very desperate. The draft is after FA and this team desperately needed help on outside more than it did along the OL. What we rolled out there last year was absolutely putrid and hamstrung the offense the second half of the year, not the OL.
Then Adoree became available, which once again, 2nd corner was a much bigger need. If he didn't, I wouldn't be surprised if we went for some OL help. Drafting OL and developing them is a much better proposition, just didn't happen that way this year. I have nothing to base this on, but I think if AVG dropped a little further, we have tried for a small trade up. Too hard to turn that extra first down though to sit there and take him up at 11 though.
This is an excellent point. You need to draft OL prospects.
Since taking over, how many OL prospects has DG chosen in the first two rounds? First three? First four?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Putting it all on development and Rob Sale
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
Or, It could be brilliant.
Don’t confuse neglect combined with luck as brilliance
It is getting beyond annoying to see the same bullshit - what is basically a bunch of "yeah, buts" - they drafted 3 the year before. There were only 6 picks this. They needed ERs, DB and WRs too.
We all want a good line. And IMHO, talent is one thing but coaching is every bit as important, if not more. Yea, Yea, Yea...it is the latest what have they done lately.
How many OL were chosen in the first three rounds during DG's entire tenure to date?
This is HAWG MAWLLIE DAVE, mind you. OL should never be an afterthought here.
This would be a hindrance for his development and muddy the waters for a real evaluation this year if it were serious. This isn't an injury that really should cause us to second guess any offseason moves, more status quo in that it hurts our depth and we pivot from one type of question mark (young unproven late round pick) to another (journeyman).
I hope it isn't serious, he's got a shot to cement place in the league this year and it would really be a shame if an injury derailed that for him.
1 - lemiuex was not good last year and was already considered by many to be a or THE weak link on the line. i get it, he's a promising young player and nobody wanted him to get hurt, but this isn't like losing thomas, gates, or peart
2 - i have repeatedly ripped their offseasons for not addressing the line properly and you could have made the case they should have used the money they spent on adoree on an OL. but adoree is young and was a huge position of need too. and nobody here really disliked their draft. they had a ton of holes and drafted at positions of need and got great value throughout while picking up extra picks next year. it is unfair to criticize the front office for this offseason in my view
3 - injuries happen across the league. some guys are going to get hurt in camp. next man up. losing shane lemiuex should not derail the season.
1 - lemiuex was not good last year and was already considered by many to be a or THE weak link on the line. i get it, he's a promising young player and nobody wanted him to get hurt, but this isn't like losing thomas, gates, or peart
2 - i have repeatedly ripped their offseasons for not addressing the line properly and you could have made the case they should have used the money they spent on adoree on an OL. but adoree is young and was a huge position of need too. and nobody here really disliked their draft. they had a ton of holes and drafted at positions of need and got great value throughout while picking up extra picks next year. it is unfair to criticize the front office for this offseason in my view
3 - injuries happen across the league. some guys are going to get hurt in camp. next man up. losing shane lemiuex should not derail the season.
Like losing Peart?
Which one is more established?
RE: FWIW, the beats are tweeting that it's a knee issue
1 - lemiuex was not good last year and was already considered by many to be a or THE weak link on the line. i get it, he's a promising young player and nobody wanted him to get hurt, but this isn't like losing thomas, gates, or peart
2 - i have repeatedly ripped their offseasons for not addressing the line properly and you could have made the case they should have used the money they spent on adoree on an OL. but adoree is young and was a huge position of need too. and nobody here really disliked their draft. they had a ton of holes and drafted at positions of need and got great value throughout while picking up extra picks next year. it is unfair to criticize the front office for this offseason in my view
3 - injuries happen across the league. some guys are going to get hurt in camp. next man up. losing shane lemiuex should not derail the season.
Yeh I'd be more worried about losing one of the tackles for a long stretch or Gates. That has potential for disaster, especially if Solder is washed up. Almost all teams need to roll the dice at some position going into a season outside of a few. Hopefully next year we can add some interior line talent and be one of those teams.
This has the same feel that that had about 10 years ago. Ther is not a single offensive lineman on the roster that does not have questions and most have serious questions. For the life of me, I don’t understand how the evaluation of Daniel Jones can be made when he might have a pretty bad OL. Nobody knows about the severity of this injury and it might turn out to be nothing. But, if’s bad karma when this kind of stuff happens in no contact drills. Last, once Golloday was signed, the WR position was in better shape than the OL group, possibly way better when you add in Barkley and Rudolph as receivers. I don’t watch much college football but it’s hard for me to believe that Toney was the best player available at 20 and that there were no offensive lineman available who could have stepped right in and made this team better.
This has the same feel that that had about 10 years ago. Ther is not a single offensive lineman on the roster that does not have questions and most have serious questions. For the life of me, I don’t understand how the evaluation of Daniel Jones can be made when he might have a pretty bad OL. Nobody knows about the severity of this injury and it might turn out to be nothing. But, if’s bad karma when this kind of stuff happens in no contact drills. Last, once Golloday was signed, the WR position was in better shape than the OL group, possibly way better when you add in Barkley and Rudolph as receivers. I don’t watch much college football but it’s hard for me to believe that Toney was the best player available at 20 and that there were no offensive lineman available who could have stepped right in and made this team better.
saying the WR group was in better shape than the OL is irrelevant. you are not just drafting by the biggest need.
and the WR group was not in good shape. shep is ALWAYS hurt, mediocre when healthy, and in all likelihood in the final year with the team. slayton was good as a rookie and bad last year. the WR group was not in good shape and toney provided immediate and long-term value. i'm not sold on toney the player and preferred moore over him, but ripping them for taking a WR is not completely fair
RE: RE: I wonder if people get injured on other teams
I wonder if other teams avoid reinforcing the weakest part of their roster?
How many teams had as many holes on their roster? I would say ER, 2nd CB and WR were just as devoid of talent as OLine...
They drafted 3 guys the year before. They had weakness at other areas too. Like Zeke said, you cannot fix them all in one year. FA was LW, Golladay and Jackson and a few lesser players including OL.
This has the same feel that that had about 10 years ago. Ther is not a single offensive lineman on the roster that does not have questions and most have serious questions. For the life of me, I don’t understand how the evaluation of Daniel Jones can be made when he might have a pretty bad OL. Nobody knows about the severity of this injury and it might turn out to be nothing. But, if’s bad karma when this kind of stuff happens in no contact drills. Last, once Golloday was signed, the WR position was in better shape than the OL group, possibly way better when you add in Barkley and Rudolph as receivers. I don’t watch much college football but it’s hard for me to believe that Toney was the best player available at 20 and that there were no offensive lineman available who could have stepped right in and made this team better.
I've been critical of the OL but it would have been a reach for any of the OL at 20. I think AVT was the target and the Jets moved up for him. That's the risk in trading down but one I'm happy they took since it means a potential top 10 pick. They could have traded down there again I guess and grabbed whoever was their R2 target(s). That should have been considered but it's impossible to say if that was even on the table for them. The 2nd round probably had a guy that could step in and improve the unit but would you trade that for Ojulari + a 3rd? I wouldn't. So after that it was likely more of the same in terms of improving the starting unit.
I think cutting of Zeitler combined with the Rudolph signing are where I see the potential mistake. The money given to Rudolph could have gone to a starting OL on a 1-2 year prove it deal, like Turner. It's not apples to apples in terms of structure, but Zeitler signed with Ravens for marginally more than what we signed Rudolph for.
I wonder if other teams avoid reinforcing the weakest part of their roster?
How many teams had as many holes on their roster? I would say ER, 2nd CB and WR were just as devoid of talent as OLine...
They drafted 3 guys the year before. They had weakness at other areas too. Like Zeke said, you cannot fix them all in one year. FA was LW, Golladay and Jackson and a few lesser players including OL.
Are you going to plant your flag and say that you can make a shitty OL work with good skill position players more easily than making shitty skill position players work with a good OL?
You really want to have that be your POV on this?
Hopefully Lemieux can recover quickly, but it isn’t time to panic yet.
Lemieux was looked on as the probable starter only because he ended the season at LG. He really didn’t beat out Hernandez. Fulton has a lot of starting experience and he endured the Houston chaos for 4 years. With the right o-line coach (hopefully Sale), it only takes one or two of these guys to step up to the task.
The other guys are bottom of the roster guys but one of them could step up when given a chance. Be concerned but don’t panic YET.
Going into this offseason the Giants were in position to make moves that would have them contend for playoffs and division crown. They were two years away from championship contention.
They needed to address the following
LB/ER
CB
WR
OL
RB - reserve
They were able to do all but OL in 2021 and there is a chance they will be OK there.
They are well positioned to address OL next year as they will have no other glaring holes (other than possibly edge) and could easily draft 3 OL in rounds 1-3 where they have 5 picks.
That would position them well for a serious 2022 run and very well for 2023.
This presumes that DJ works out and no career ending injuries of key players.
Going into this offseason the Giants were in position to make moves that would have them contend for playoffs and division crown. They were two years away from championship contention.
They needed to address the following
LB/ER
CB
WR
OL
RB - reserve
They were able to do all but OL in 2021 and there is a chance they will be OK there.
They are well positioned to address OL next year as they will have no other glaring holes (other than possibly edge) and could easily draft 3 OL in rounds 1-3 where they have 5 picks.
That would position them well for a serious 2022 run and very well for 2023.
This presumes that DJ works out and no career ending injuries of key players.
they will have holes next year to fill excluding the OL. i'm not saying they should be filled as bigger priorities than the OL but they will have other holes and it's not as simple as to say most other things are fixed and they can just focus on the OL
- S (if peppers leaves)
- TE is going to be a massive hole (rudolph could be a cap casualty or completely cooked and EE will not be re-signed)
- WR is slayton plays like he did last year
- QB is a possibility
- CB and MLB are bradbury and martinez would be entering into the final years of their deals, both can be re-signed but they may want to draft replacements for cap purposes
- DL to replace hill who will likely walk
I would love to hear from an objective Giants fan who follows the college game if Toney was the best player available at 20. From what I’ve read, he wasn’t and that tells me the Giants drafted for need or in this case, in my opinion, perceived need. I don’t who they could have drafted at 20 who would have given Jones a better chance to show what he can do and make the Giants a better team but I don’t think that player was Toney. It’s interesting that the most critical criticisms of taking Toney are around the thought that there were better WRs who were available which is the definition of drafting for need. And, in my opinion, if you drafted for need, it is and was the OL. Sale may turn out to be a great assistant coach but there aren’t enough hours in the day to fix each player on the line and that includes using all the consultants.
of the injury. If it is long term they have a lot of time to work someone else in or make a move if necessary. If he is out for the year than will be able find someone with at least the same production imv.
One thing the beats already said is Jones is getting the ball out quick. The OL will be better with the skill positions added (and Rudolph) provided Jones takes a big step. The skill guys last year needed more time to get open.
I also believe we are going to see significant scheme changes. People mention Kitchens but I think Sale has had big imput as well.
I would love to hear from an objective Giants fan who follows the college game if Toney was the best player available at 20. From what I’ve read, he wasn’t and that tells me the Giants drafted for need or in this case, in my opinion, perceived need. I don’t who they could have drafted at 20 who would have given Jones a better chance to show what he can do and make the Giants a better team but I don’t think that player was Toney. It’s interesting that the most critical criticisms of taking Toney are around the thought that there were better WRs who were available which is the definition of drafting for need. And, in my opinion, if you drafted for need, it is and was the OL. Sale may turn out to be a great assistant coach but there aren’t enough hours in the day to fix each player on the line and that includes using all the consultants.
i don't mean for this to come off douchey but look up the draft results. there was 1, 1 offensive lineman picked between picks 21 - 32 and that was darrisaw, who would have competed against Peart for a starting spot
RE: RE: RE: RE: I wonder if people get injured on other teams
Are you going to plant your flag and say that you can make a shitty OL work with good skill position players more easily than making shitty skill position players work with a good OL?
You really want to have that be your POV on this?
Green Bay did that for years, so it can be done as an example. Not what I said though, was it.
You love making statements for people and expressing your opinion as theirs if it can fit your narrative.
My position, and no one gives a fuck about my opinion or yours as a deciding factor on how the team is built, is that better coaches produce better players. Aside from the Cowboys, most teams have at least 3 JAGS on their lines. The good ones have maybe two very good or better players.
It all goes back to, they drafted 3 players in 2020 and moved another guy from RG/RT to center who played pretty well to very well by year end. They had other holes to fill. That is where they chose to spend their time and money because that was where they probably felt the most bang for the buck is - you disagree.
If you feel that should have paid high money for some meh OL in FA, that is fine and it rarely pays off. But Judge and DG thought spending money to finish off DB, DL and WR was more important.
They had holes at the positions I pointed out. Yes, OL could use help. They obviously felt that better coaching was going to get more accomplished. Also, there will be vets cut loose later in camp that they can pick up for a lot less money. But then again you knew that.
I would love to hear from an objective Giants fan who follows the college game if Toney was the best player available at 20. From what I’ve read, he wasn’t and that tells me the Giants drafted for need or in this case, in my opinion, perceived need. I don’t who they could have drafted at 20 who would have given Jones a better chance to show what he can do and make the Giants a better team but I don’t think that player was Toney. It’s interesting that the most critical criticisms of taking Toney are around the thought that there were better WRs who were available which is the definition of drafting for need. And, in my opinion, if you drafted for need, it is and was the OL. Sale may turn out to be a great assistant coach but there aren’t enough hours in the day to fix each player on the line and that includes using all the consultants.
There was no clear consensus BPA at 20, it was a pretty flat range. However there was a drop off at OL after AVT/Darrisaw, they were in a deadzone at that position. Toney was going to get picked in the first round, the Jags and Ravens would have taken him. So he went in a range he was supposed to go in, probably the high end of that range but a range he was projected to go (bottom 1/top 2). I have no idea if was THE BPA for the Giants but he was BPA at a position of need which is how teams pick.
I'm on the record of not liking the pick BTW, I preferred Moore if they went WR and was on board with Paye at that spot.
I would love to hear from an objective Giants fan who follows the college game if Toney was the best player available at 20. From what I’ve read, he wasn’t and that tells me the Giants drafted for need or in this case, in my opinion, perceived need. I don’t who they could have drafted at 20 who would have given Jones a better chance to show what he can do and make the Giants a better team but I don’t think that player was Toney. It’s interesting that the most critical criticisms of taking Toney are around the thought that there were better WRs who were available which is the definition of drafting for need. And, in my opinion, if you drafted for need, it is and was the OL. Sale may turn out to be a great assistant coach but there aren’t enough hours in the day to fix each player on the line and that includes using all the consultants.
DG pretty much admitted after the draft that once the Eagles jumped us for Devonta Smith, we were set to draft Vera-Tucker. Then the Bears offered us the trade...so we basically sacrificed an immediate OL upgrade for really good draft picks for next year.
I think any reasonable fan would admit the Giants still left the cupboard pretty bare on the OL. Hope Thomas proves to be the guy at LT, and the rest stay healthy and outperform expectations. Lemieux missing any meaningful time wouldn't be a great start
I was just listening to the latest Just Giants podcast and they made a point about a very vocal minority of fans who make everything that happens to the team as a villification of Gettleman. We see that play out on BBI daily.
And much like is pointed out here in many threads, they commented that even though the arrow is seemingly pointing up, that vocal minority wants to relive 2018 over and over again.
I think we've all learned enough about how the Giants work
over the past 4-5 years to know that Gettleman has an important voice in all personnel decisions but he has hardly the only one. The owners, the coaches, the assistant GM, the scouts are all very involved in what Kevin Abrams calls team building.
I do dispute it's a very vocal minority that has lost patience and faith with the current GM. I think a large majority of the fan base would like to see a change at the GM spot. Because they do blame everything that goes wrong on a guy who is older, doesn't present himself well in public and comes off as extremely arrogant.
That doesn't mean they're right but this whole thing about a vocal minority is opinion and far from fact. Have Dave walk out to the 50 yard line 5 minutes before the kickoff against the Broncos and wave to the crowd and see what kind of reaction he gets.
I would love to hear from an objective Giants fan who follows the college game if Toney was the best player available at 20. From what I’ve read, he wasn’t and that tells me the Giants drafted for need or in this case, in my opinion, perceived need. I don’t who they could have drafted at 20 who would have given Jones a better chance to show what he can do and make the Giants a better team but I don’t think that player was Toney. It’s interesting that the most critical criticisms of taking Toney are around the thought that there were better WRs who were available which is the definition of drafting for need. And, in my opinion, if you drafted for need, it is and was the OL. Sale may turn out to be a great assistant coach but there aren’t enough hours in the day to fix each player on the line and that includes using all the consultants.
Does it really matter at this point? Every teams draft board is different, schemes are different and you will draft for need if the players are rated close. Clearly he was the best rated WR on the Giants board. Some people had him rated very high and others not so much and some like Sy had a red mark for character so that skews the grade as well. At this point hes our guy and we should all hope that he plays like the #1 overall pick. There is no point in not cheering for the kid to be great to prove the Giants made the wrong pick. I didnt want to pick him but thankfully Mara hasnt asked my opinion.
you may believe Toney was a bad pick, but I can tell you that down here in Jax Urban Meyer was pissing and moaning about the Giants taking Toney. He wanted him badly.
There goes the Superbowl and any chance of the playoffs
Shane Lemieux the Giants fifth round 2020 draft pick who started 9 games last year sat in the back of a cart while they drove him off the practice field. Team officials state it was an issue with his knee. Its over now. All hopes for the Giants are gone. Giants fans have begun jumping off the Rt 3 overpass outside the Metlife Sports Complex and into the Berry's Creek Canal Time to dump the roster and move into rebuild mode.
I mean, was Lemieux the difference between a Super Bowl or getting beat in the NFC Championship game? He’s pretty much the worst starter on a fairly lousy offensive line and a team that’s been one of the worst teams in the NFL for a decade. So, I don’t think these Giants are winning the Lombardi this year even if Lemieux turns out to be fine and no one else gets hurt for the rest of the season.
So, it’s not like our dreams are dashed, because this was always going to be, in the best case scenario, another rebuilding year. Getting over .500, winning the division or a Wild Card, and getting to the playoffs are our expectation, stretch and prayer goals. So let’s hang in there a little while longer BBIers.
“You have two guys with Golladay you have a guy who has put up some big numbers in this league,” Mara said. “John Ross is someone who has some unique speed, and we think we might hit on him as well. Surrounding Daniel with more weapons was certainly a priority coming into this offseason.”
The Giants presumptive starting 5 lineman going into camp had a total cap hit of under 16M this year. Lane Johnson’s cap hit is larger this year.
Overall the Giants are in the bottom 3rd in the league in oline cost this year. The most costly player of the group is the backup swing tackle — and remember the Giants very easily could have cut Solder and saved an additional 3M dollars.
The Giants took a high risk, high reward approach to the line. They are betting on 4/5 of the line doing something they’ve never done — play a full season of NFL average or above games.
The only player on the line who you can say, if that guy has a repeat of last year, we’re good, is Gates.
Given the trouble Gettleman’s had putting together a competent group, I was surprised with the approach.
RE: I think we've all learned enough about how the Giants work
over the past 4-5 years to know that Gettleman has an important voice in all personnel decisions but he has hardly the only one. The owners, the coaches, the assistant GM, the scouts are all very involved in what Kevin Abrams calls team building.
I do dispute it's a very vocal minority that has lost patience and faith with the current GM. I think a large majority of the fan base would like to see a change at the GM spot. Because they do blame everything that goes wrong on a guy who is older, doesn't present himself well in public and comes off as extremely arrogant.
That doesn't mean they're right but this whole thing about a vocal minority is opinion and far from fact. Have Dave walk out to the 50 yard line 5 minutes before the kickoff against the Broncos and wave to the crowd and see what kind of reaction he gets.
Agreed. Gettleman-haters may be a relatively small group but Gettleman-dislikers is much larger than his fan club members would like to admit. Including the president of it above.
Hell, even the DG fan club basically turned this into "We trust Judge" approach this offseason because of tiring support for him. No GM bats a thousand, but as long as he is now working in combination with Judge or Judge signs off on things then everything is okay.
If the injury is bad, at least we have a full camp/preseason for them to figure out the best guy left and have him work with the remainder of the line. That, plus confidence in the coaches that they will teach the replacement linemen exactly what he needs to know for each offense installed on a weekly basis, determined by opposing position players and that team's defensive scheme, and his largest personal weaknesses.
RE: RE: I see the torches and pitchforks are out already
I was just listening to the latest Just Giants podcast and they made a point about a very vocal minority of fans who make everything that happens to the team as a villification of Gettleman. We see that play out on BBI daily.
And much like is pointed out here in many threads, they commented that even though the arrow is seemingly pointing up, that vocal minority wants to relive 2018 over and over again.
The mistakes that began in 2018 are why the team sucks. Gettleman's job performance from the day he was hired is the worst of any Giant coach or executive that I can recall in over 30 years of following the team.
And be honest - if Gettleman had performed well in 2018 you'd be mentioning it at every opportunity. Shit you mention the four Super Bowls when people criticize John Mara's job performance...and he wasn't even working for the Giants in '86.
Bottom line is Gettleman has been an abject disaster - and that disaster is built on the two brutal draft picks of Barkley and Jones.
Hey maybe we'll enjoy being over .500 at some point this year. Haven't been able to do that since December 2016.
“You have two guys with Golladay you have a guy who has put up some big numbers in this league,” Mara said. “John Ross is someone who has some unique speed, and we think we might hit on him as well. Surrounding Daniel with more weapons was certainly a priority coming into this offseason.”
So no surprise Toney was the pick at #20.
Everyone and their brother knew they wanted DaVonta Smith before the Eagles swiped him.
Until we have details on the extent of today's injury
I was just listening to the latest Just Giants podcast and they made a point about a very vocal minority of fans who make everything that happens to the team as a villification of Gettleman. We see that play out on BBI daily.
And much like is pointed out here in many threads, they commented that even though the arrow is seemingly pointing up, that vocal minority wants to relive 2018 over and over again.
Super Bowl number one. It is very hard to win in this league.
It has not been great but they have added some very good players and depth. Even if Jones does not work out the next QB will be stepping into a much better situation than he did. We may have a top 8 D this year.
I never felt Dave was hired and told "do whatever you want to fix it". He has had parameters (Eli mandate) and in his defense he was took over a very poor roster from years of poor drafting. They are making progress albeit slower than hoped.
The OL will be okay and keeping it low cost is the best way to build long term success. The excess cost they had starting 2009 on the OL was the biggest factor for the decline imv. Keep drafting and developing OL each year.
I don't understand this well we sucked in the recent past, so it's
almost a sure-fire bet we will suck in the future. I mean in my lifetime it seems like we have a decade of good football, resulting in two superbowls, followed by a decade of poor football, and than another decade of good football resulting in another two superbowl wins, and now a decade of bade football. If this data stays true to form we will win another two superbowls. Of course that's silly to think, just like it's silly to think look at the recent history and apply it to 2020 on.
DG has been a middling GM so far imo and his two biggest mistakes, far and away, was the hiring of Shurmur and the clown car and the judgement of the team going into 2018 (this assesment led to very poor decisions) Seems like he got the coaching staff right the second time (only time will tell, but if you aint excited about Judge and staff, don't know what to tell you) and personally I think he got the QB right.
2021 is truly a make-or-break year for this franchise and yet some don't believe it's possible. Which is fine, but to point at the past 8 years is, to me, completely assinine and irrelevant. Blasphemy to say, but if the team turns around next year, I think you have to look at DG positively. He did take over a complete clusterfuck.
This vocal minority thing is weird. The GM has not spent a single day above .500. I bet a straw poll wouldn’t me be kind to Rabbit Foot Dave.
It’s a fan site to debate football. Maybe the silent majority can kick in some opinions?
That is one of the funnier things around here lately - the "vocal minority".
The arrogance of this equally vocal "majority" - the lemmings - is unbelievable. Especially when they preach their other go-to mantra about what a real fan is and how this real fan should post.
This vocal minority thing is weird. The GM has not spent a single day above .500. I bet a straw poll wouldn’t me be kind to Rabbit Foot Dave.
It’s a fan site to debate football. Maybe the silent majority can kick in some opinions?
That is one of the funnier things around here lately - the "vocal minority".
The arrogance of this equally vocal "majority" - the lemmings - is unbelievable. Especially when they preach their other go-to mantra about what a real fan is and how this real fan should post.
Why don't you tweet a reply to the Just Giants podcast then. They called it a vocal minority - and if you look at this board, That holds exactly true too.
Just because you and a couple other posters take up most threads to bash the GM, with plenty of references to 2018 doesn't mean that most of teh fanbase agrees.
Heck, The Giants Insider podcast references this frequently as well. That the minority of fans ripping Jones and Gettleman don't seem to mesh with the majority of the fanbase - and certainly not the team itself.
Well, I do because the majority want a monolithic BBI, but I find that totally insulting. This organization has struggled for a decade to get out of its own way. They deserve no benefit of the doubt UNTIL we start winning more games in a season than we lose.
It's always easier to follow the mainstream. It's safe - like a warm blanket.
Candidly, I don't mind optimism is it makes sense. But posting articles about Daniel Jones having a steak dinner where he spews endless cliches is not reason - for me - to feel better about Jones heading into '21. It's a perfect example of your favorite word - ponderous.
It isn't about volume - it is content. You post a variation of the same thing over and over again, ad nauseum. And it isn't just occasionally - it is every day.
Except for those years when the team was winning Super Bowls, which is still one of those pesky things you can't explain very well.
Putting aside all of the conventional wisdom you seem to learn from the various Giant podcasts, why is it so important that most of the fanbase agree on topics? Particularly with a team that has had far more go wrong with it than right over the past decade. Seems like opinions should be as widely varied as the issues themselves.
The minority opinion, whether its vocal or not, should have the same right to be heard as any majority. In fact, even moreso if you are attempting at all to have a meaningful conversation or debate.
If the goal is to just pile on like lemmings when the minority opinion, or God forbid critics of anything NY Giants, announces itself then you have your answer as to why threads go side-ways so quickly.
Or is the call out of the vocal minority just your way to bring back calling posters "contrarians" once again? That nugget seems to have fallen out of your vocabulary as of late, huh...
RE: RE: I see the torches and pitchforks are out already
I was just listening to the latest Just Giants podcast and they made a point about a very vocal minority of fans who make everything that happens to the team as a villification of Gettleman. We see that play out on BBI daily.
And much like is pointed out here in many threads, they commented that even though the arrow is seemingly pointing up, that vocal minority wants to relive 2018 over and over again.
What type of reasonable person wouldn't question a GM's decision-making with 15 wins over three years?
Putting aside all of the conventional wisdom you seem to learn from the various Giant podcasts, why is it so important that most of the fanbase agree on topics? Particularly with a team that has had far more go wrong with it than right over the past decade. Seems like opinions should be as widely varied as the issues themselves.
The minority opinion, whether its vocal or not, should have the same right to be heard as any majority. In fact, even moreso if you are attempting at all to have a meaningful conversation or debate.
If the goal is to just pile on like lemmings when the minority opinion, or God forbid critics of anything NY Giants, announces itself then you have your answer as to why threads go side-ways so quickly.
Or is the call out of the vocal minority just your way to bring back calling posters "contrarians" once again? That nugget seems to have fallen out of your vocabulary as of late, huh...
And, how does an organization quantify a fan base's happiness with a a GM? lol. Certainly not wins, in our case.
It isn't about volume - it is content. You post a variation of the same thing over and over again, ad nauseum. And it isn't just occasionally - it is every day.
And so the Pot has spoken.
One of the all-time hypocritical posts.
I ended last evening saying basically the same thing
but a little more info... Pat Leonard Report - ( New Window )
IIRC, non-contact knee injuries are usually pretty bad. I assume no contact because I don't think it's allowed yet. And everyone was saying it didn't appear to be a leg injury???
RE: I ended last evening saying basically the same thing
RE: LOL..
Jimmy Googs : 7/28/2021 11:32 pm : link : reply
In comment 15315941 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
But then again, you spend most of the time telling people what posts are bad by them. Or bad looks.
Best example of hypocrisy on the board...
Clownshoes. You spend many posts telling people "bad post" and assorted other comments like that as if you are an arbiter of anything.
You should eliminate "hypocrisy" from your vocabulary. You tell people "bad post" or "bad look" after you were literally kicked off the board, took on a dupe handle for a year and returned doing the same things you did prior to being banned (and while being banned).
The idea of you calling anyone hypocritical is the definition of the fucking word.
It isn't about volume - it is content. You post a variation of the same thing over and over again, ad nauseum. And it isn't just occasionally - it is every day.
I forgot to ask - if I posted the "same thing over and over again, ad nauseum" but you agreed with it, would you still respond similarly?
RE: RE: I see the torches and pitchforks are out already
I was just listening to the latest Just Giants podcast and they made a point about a very vocal minority of fans who make everything that happens to the team as a villification of Gettleman. We see that play out on BBI daily.
And much like is pointed out here in many threads, they commented that even though the arrow is seemingly pointing up, that vocal minority wants to relive 2018 over and over again.
You’re so quick to criticize anyone who is critical of gettleman. He’s done an objectively horrible job in spite of having three top 6 picks the last three years. The division was horrible last year and they couldn’t even win it. The o line is still bad and we’re all supposed to have blind optimism in a first year coach and a young line that sucked last year and lost their most reliable lineman who was snatched up quickly by an organization who knows what they’re doing
RE: RE: I ended last evening saying basically the same thing
the strategy of going with the OL as is as a very big risk, especially considering DJs confidence and turnover problems...What on earth could they have to say about a thin unit which has underachieved for the better part of a decade getting thinner?
I guess the preference would be something like this.
"Joe Judge is going to figure it out, he's the best, this makes me MORE excited for the season to see what he can do with a more unproven line"
It's especially odd that the person who has become enemy of the state here Jerry Reese, largely failed by overemphasizing the skill positions on offense and not taking care of the line, or understanding the strengths of his franchise QB.
I know the constant chorus of of could a FAN know more than the Giants!!
But I don't know what's so complicated about saying, hey, DJ would look great in the RPO, maybe a lot more OL help would be more valuable to us than Toney and a lot FA dollars deployed but almost zero on the OL.
Are we going to get treated to another season where we call the team devoid of talent but argue that we don't need wholesale changes in the front office? God I hope not.
Seems those critical of DG already know how this year is turning out
I read Jones sucks, the OL is bad, that Barkley was a bad pick and especially how bad a job DG has done. It must be nice to know all that already. I was going to see how the season went before I cast judgement but I guess I can just rely on those that already know. Can I get tomorrow’s lottery numbers while you’re at it.
but people seem to have a problem with the idea that those that expressed concerns about the OL might express more concern here. And that's a little bonkers
but people seem to have a problem with the idea that those that expressed concerns about the OL might express more concern here. And that's a little bonkers
I think people have expressed a lot more than “more concern”.
almost a sure-fire bet we will suck in the future. I mean in my lifetime it seems like we have a decade of good football, resulting in two superbowls, followed by a decade of poor football, and than another decade of good football resulting in another two superbowl wins, and now a decade of bade football. If this data stays true to form we will win another two superbowls. Of course that's silly to think, just like it's silly to think look at the recent history and apply it to 2020 on.
DG has been a middling GM so far imo and his two biggest mistakes, far and away, was the hiring of Shurmur and the clown car and the judgement of the team going into 2018 (this assesment led to very poor decisions) Seems like he got the coaching staff right the second time (only time will tell, but if you aint excited about Judge and staff, don't know what to tell you) and personally I think he got the QB right.
2021 is truly a make-or-break year for this franchise and yet some don't believe it's possible. Which is fine, but to point at the past 8 years is, to me, completely assinine and irrelevant. Blasphemy to say, but if the team turns around next year, I think you have to look at DG positively. He did take over a complete clusterfuck.
I don't really want to burst your bubble but the Giants are the only team in the NFL with a Superbowl WIN in each of the last 4 decades:
Terps and FMiC are not simply two one-trick, deranged posters, but actually the same, super-deranged poster arguing with themself?
The same argument using the same language in multiple posts every day spanning what seems like an eon.
Seems plausible. I don't know why Go Terps is so anti-Jones. Particularly because a third year is not unheard of with any first round pick at QB. Fmic and his following are overmatched though in response.
it's not a long-term injury, but shit happens. The o-line is a question mark still but they need the young players to develop, they can't just keep investing limited resources into the o-line every season just because they weren't Orlando Pace as rookies. There are still huge holes else-where on the team and might need to invest in a new QB if Jones doesn't cut the turnovers. If Jones works out, they'll have a chance to add more o-line talent in the draft.
almost a sure-fire bet we will suck in the future. I mean in my lifetime it seems like we have a decade of good football, resulting in two superbowls, followed by a decade of poor football, and than another decade of good football resulting in another two superbowl wins, and now a decade of bade football. If this data stays true to form we will win another two superbowls. Of course that's silly to think, just like it's silly to think look at the recent history and apply it to 2020 on.
DG has been a middling GM so far imo and his two biggest mistakes, far and away, was the hiring of Shurmur and the clown car and the judgement of the team going into 2018 (this assesment led to very poor decisions) Seems like he got the coaching staff right the second time (only time will tell, but if you aint excited about Judge and staff, don't know what to tell you) and personally I think he got the QB right.
2021 is truly a make-or-break year for this franchise and yet some don't believe it's possible. Which is fine, but to point at the past 8 years is, to me, completely assinine and irrelevant. Blasphemy to say, but if the team turns around next year, I think you have to look at DG positively. He did take over a complete clusterfuck.
It's not that we believe it's sure fire going to continue to suck, just that this ownership/FO has lost any benefit of the doubt from us after years of poor decision making and equally poor results. The Knicks were a laughingstock for what 20 years? What changed this season? They won. That's where some of us are at with the Giants: they're a bad team until they prove otherwise.
Terps and FMiC are not simply two one-trick, deranged posters, but actually the same, super-deranged poster arguing with themself?
The same argument using the same language in multiple posts every day spanning what seems like an eon.
Seems plausible. I don't know why Go Terps is so anti-Jones. Particularly because a third year is not unheard of with any first round pick at QB. Fmic and his following are overmatched though in response.
I'm not anti-Jones - it's just the reality of the situation. He has no pocket presence and he struggles to see anything past his first read. He also struggles on play action from under center when he has to turn his back to the defense and read the developing play.
He can do two things really well: run the ball on designed plays and deliver the ball accurately to his first read. That's not nothing - I think he could be effective either as a Cam Newton type where his running is the feature, or possibly in a Stefanski/Shanahan/McVay style offense that gets him out of the pocket, cuts the field in half, and prescribes his throws.
But we have Garrett, who wants to deliver the ball deep from the pocket after establishing the run. Combine that with our offensive line and it's a recipe for third and long (a category where the Giants had the most in the league in 2020). Low success, high risk situations.
I expect Jones's struggles to continue partially because of his limitations and partially because of his situation. The crucial question is whether it's worth picking up his option, and IMO anything short of a huge Josh Allen type of third year means we have to find a new quarterback for 2022 due to his contract situation and our extra first round pick in 2022.
I don't hate Jones, but the situation is what it is.
It isn't about volume - it is content. You post a variation of the same thing over and over again, ad nauseum. And it isn't just occasionally - it is every day.
And so the Pot has spoken.
One of the all-time hypocritical posts.
Actually, Fats is correct. I get nausea the minute I see you and Terps jump up and down preaching. Not to say you cannot be right and they crash and burn this season. If so, we will applaud you. But it is effin annoying that a thread doesn't pass that one of you(or both) is telling us all how bad DG is...we get it. We have read it a few hundred times. Can we please, I ask you kindly, please get out of training camp first before you declare the season and the next decade lost because DG is a moron and the stupidest man to ever enter a pro football facility. Can we please have a moment to enjoy camp reports and debate players without be called idiots and lemmings.
You have nausea? Can you imagine the nausea created by the oceans of excuses and rationalizations we've had to read here justifying the mistakes of this front office and ownership? It's been like drinking ipecac since Gettleman was hired.
Instead of trading down. They opted for the first rounder next year. So if there is criticism for not addressing the OL, that decision should be part of it.
“I thought we could do both at the same time and I was wrong,” Gettleman admitted on ESPN Radio, via Art Stapleton.
=======================
This was his blunder. This is why many of us went after him like we did- because it is mind-numbingly stupid logic. And there were many on here that instead held the attitude "Well I'll trust his POV over yours and others." Any fan that was fair could see he was blundering.
But now we got quite a few picks in 2022. That's a very good sign imo. Very happy about this and what DG did (and I assume Judge too.). So many of us that didn't think much of the team this year- this injury shouldn't move the needle. Frankly, I liked Giants got Fulton but I saw reaction on here when we got him - and it was so muted I figured then he must be done. Hopefully, he isn't.
I do like what we're doing. This injury changes little. I wanted upgrades to the OL - but we weren't going to be that good anyway - so I can wait. And hope to be shocked.
===============
And ofc we have some posters on here that will defend the Giants and lash out at anyone that complains as much as possible. Kind of funny- one poster on this thread that brought-up vocal-minority regarding DG - last year he claimed "I never defended Dave Gettleman." Just to see how many people came at him - and he still kept fighting and insulting - pretty comical.
Anyhow, I expect a 7-10 year. Am okay with that because I think our GM and Head Coach have set up things well for next year.
But what gets a little annoying is that it almost appears as if some fans are more frustrated with those that have accurately identified in the past the team was going to suck by taking out some frustration out of the overall incompetence of the team for these several years- rather than cheerlead. Yet the cheerleading seems to want to attack those fans rather than attack the garbage they've had to watch over the last several years. - Very odd.
But as I said - things look good for 2022. This year anything good that happens it's a bonus. I really like the opportunities in 2022.
I'm actually encouraged that you have faith in DG lol
1-- I'm okay with Jones. Not saying he is going to be great - but if I'm okay with Jones then the big need is the OL. If this year the OL does well (which I highly doubt) - then I'd expect Jones to do well enough. If they don't then I think it will be obvious upgrades are needed at OL. Have more than enough between picks and FA to fix.
2--- I believe in Judge. I don't think much of the Dallas coach either. And I think until Washington gets a QB they are limited. And Philly's coach questionable.
3--- I respect when management admits specifically what they did wrong. But more than that-- this has been my whole point of blasting DG-.-- Hubris. Excessive hubris. Since day one he had it, flaunted it-- and for a team I felt sucked - had little-to-no-shot-to-win-- he should've went all-in on rebuilding. Instead between his a combo of drafting, free agent signings, and trades - his moves were silly for a complete rebuild which I felt was needed. - Hubris thinking he could win with such an awful roster.
4-- As someone who felt team was awful all over many positions- how can I not appreciate all the trading down? And acquiring draft picks for the following year? That's exactly one of two ways I think it takes to rebuild. For someone like me that wanted a rebuild, acquiring multiple picks is awesome. What else can I say?
Actually, Fats is correct. I get nausea the minute I see you and Terps jump up and down preaching. Not to say you cannot be right and they crash and burn this season. If so, we will applaud you. But it is effin annoying that a thread doesn't pass that one of you(or both) is telling us all how bad DG is...we get it. We have read it a few hundred times. Can we please, I ask you kindly, please get out of training camp first before you declare the season and the next decade lost because DG is a moron and the stupidest man to ever enter a pro football facility. Can we please have a moment to enjoy camp reports and debate players without be called idiots and lemmings.
Where have I said this season is going to be a failure before it starts? The subject I have most written about this upcoming season is how many points we will likely need to get to the playoffs; and how Jones will need to impact that. Which is inexplicably a sore topic for some because I'm placing expectations on Jones. And that is considered way out of bounds around here with the vocal majority.
I have made NO predictions about record, playoffs, etc.
Alas, like the Fatman in Charlotte, you have become quite deft at putting words in my mouth and distorting what I write.
Where have I said this season is going to be a failure before it starts? The subject I have most written about this upcoming season is how many points we will likely need to get to the playoffs; and how Jones will need to impact that. Which is inexplicably a sore topic for some because I'm placing expectations on Jones. And that is considered way out of bounds around here with the vocal majority.
I have made NO predictions about record, playoffs, etc.
Alas, like the Fatman in Charlotte, you have become quite deft at putting words in my mouth and distorting what I write.
Going into this offseason the Giants were in position to make moves that would have them contend for playoffs and division crown. They were two years away from championship contention.
They needed to address the following
LB/ER
CB
WR
OL
RB - reserve
They were able to do all but OL in 2021 and there is a chance they will be OK there.
They are well positioned to address OL next year as they will have no other glaring holes (other than possibly edge) and could easily draft 3 OL in rounds 1-3 where they have 5 picks.
That would position them well for a serious 2022 run and very well for 2023.
This presumes that DJ works out and no career ending injuries of key players.
they will have holes next year to fill excluding the OL. i'm not saying they should be filled as bigger priorities than the OL but they will have other holes and it's not as simple as to say most other things are fixed and they can just focus on the OL
- S (if peppers leaves)
- TE is going to be a massive hole (rudolph could be a cap casualty or completely cooked and EE will not be re-signed)
- WR is slayton plays like he did last year
- QB is a possibility
- CB and MLB are bradbury and martinez would be entering into the final years of their deals, both can be re-signed but they may want to draft replacements for cap purposes
- DL to replace hill who will likely walk
Of course you always need new players. The other two high picks plus 2 4th round picks could be used as appropriate. Plus there is Free Agency. TE is a relatively inexpensive position to fill. I agree that it all goes to shit if DJ stumbles.
RE: There goes the Superbowl and any chance of the playoffs
Shane Lemieux the Giants fifth round 2020 draft pick who started 9 games last year sat in the back of a cart while they drove him off the practice field. Team officials state it was an issue with his knee. Its over now. All hopes for the Giants are gone. Giants fans have begun jumping off the Rt 3 overpass outside the Metlife Sports Complex and into the Berry's Creek Canal Time to dump the roster and move into rebuild mode.
You want to downplay Lemieux's injury by downplaying Lemieux's value, and that's fine.
Just realize that the 5th round draft pick who started 9 games last year is also their best OG at the moment.
I think that is a fair perspective on Jones. It's not one every one will agree with but it's balanced.
You may think I am targeting you and FMiC in my posts and to an extent I am. I've read both your posts for years and I think you both know the game. When I see what both your posts degenerate into I think the board loses a lot.
There are plenty of morons who post all the time about Jones and I wouldn't waste a minute of my time on them because all they know is how to shout an unsupported opinion. I think you two both bring a lot more when you just post perspectives like that.
Elbows better than knees and ankles
Or, It could be brilliant.
Quote:
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
Or, It could be brilliant.
Don’t confuse neglect combined with luck as brilliance
It's the gamble of the year for sure.
If you believe Mr. Hog Mollie, he was looking at OLs in the draft but the ones he targeted kept getting plucked away before we picked. And apparently in the second and third rounds. Which begs the question - if you had OLs on your radar high in the draft, and you missed out, why didn't you look for more solutions in free agency?
One of the most succinct post ever👍
Quote:
In comment 15316325 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
Or, It could be brilliant.
Don’t confuse neglect combined with luck as brilliance
It is getting beyond annoying to see the same bullshit - what is basically a bunch of "yeah, buts" - they drafted 3 the year before. There were only 6 picks this. They needed ERs, DB and WRs too.
We all want a good line. And IMHO, talent is one thing but coaching is every bit as important, if not more. Yea, Yea, Yea...it is the latest what have they done lately.
Quote:
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
It's the gamble of the year for sure.
If you believe Mr. Hog Mollie, he was looking at OLs in the draft but the ones he targeted kept getting plucked away before we picked. And apparently in the second and third rounds. Which begs the question - if you had OLs on your radar high in the draft, and you missed out, why didn't you look for more solutions in free agency?
Getting OL in FA is probably the most overpriced position in the NFL as far as money to talent goes. The worst position group to be bad at in NFL is OL, so teams get very desperate. The draft is after FA and this team desperately needed help on outside more than it did along the OL. What we rolled out there last year was absolutely putrid and hamstrung the offense the second half of the year, not the OL.
Then Adoree became available, which once again, 2nd corner was a much bigger need. If he didn't, I wouldn't be surprised if we went for some OL help. Drafting OL and developing them is a much better proposition, just didn't happen that way this year. I have nothing to base this on, but I think if AVG dropped a little further, we have tried for a small trade up. Too hard to turn that extra first down though to sit there and take him up at 11 though.
Quote:
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
It's the gamble of the year for sure.
If you believe Mr. Hog Mollie, he was looking at OLs in the draft but the ones he targeted kept getting plucked away before we picked. And apparently in the second and third rounds. Which begs the question - if you had OLs on your radar high in the draft, and you missed out, why didn't you look for more solutions in free agency?
They drafted 3 offensive linemen last year. They signed 2 free agents this year in Fulton and Harrison. They brought back solder and brought in Brett heggie as an udfa. They have added players in the last 2 years and spent premium picks.
There is still options on this team depending on the injury to lemieux. Fulton has starting experience. Harrison might get a look. Maybe heggie or Harrison can play center and gates can move to guard if needed.
Quote:
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
It's the gamble of the year for sure.
If you believe Mr. Hog Mollie, he was looking at OLs in the draft but the ones he targeted kept getting plucked away before we picked. And apparently in the second and third rounds. Which begs the question - if you had OLs on your radar high in the draft, and you missed out, why didn't you look for more solutions in free agency?
Well, for one thing, free agency came before the draft, so they might have chosen to do little in the way of FA OL, with the hope that they could tap a decent OL prospect in the draft. Best laid plans and all that. Clearly, though, they put a higher priority on WR, ER, and CB, as well as stockpiling draft capital for the future.
I wouldn't have gone that route. I would have drafted Slater or Vera-Tucker at 11 (even if Smith was still on the board), but that's just me.
So, you could say they gambled on what they already had at OL being enough. I look at it as taking a calculated risk...semantics, I know.
There were few, if any, times during the 2021 NFL Draft where OL was BPA. Would you have given up Ojulari and a 2022 draft pick for Eichenberg? Maybe we could have drafted Trey Smith in Round 6, but who knows about his meds and our coaching staff would have inside knowledge about whether he would be a fit for what we want to do.
Ooof. Good thing we upgraded and added more depth to the OL in the offseason. Hope it's not serious.
Quote:
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
Or, It could be brilliant.
According to the OP, they just replaced SL with Raanan. Hard to see how that would be brilliant.
I wonder if other teams avoid reinforcing the weakest part of their roster?
Quote:
In comment 15316325 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
It's the gamble of the year for sure.
If you believe Mr. Hog Mollie, he was looking at OLs in the draft but the ones he targeted kept getting plucked away before we picked. And apparently in the second and third rounds. Which begs the question - if you had OLs on your radar high in the draft, and you missed out, why didn't you look for more solutions in free agency?
Getting OL in FA is probably the most overpriced position in the NFL as far as money to talent goes. The worst position group to be bad at in NFL is OL, so teams get very desperate. The draft is after FA and this team desperately needed help on outside more than it did along the OL. What we rolled out there last year was absolutely putrid and hamstrung the offense the second half of the year, not the OL.
Then Adoree became available, which once again, 2nd corner was a much bigger need. If he didn't, I wouldn't be surprised if we went for some OL help. Drafting OL and developing them is a much better proposition, just didn't happen that way this year. I have nothing to base this on, but I think if AVG dropped a little further, we have tried for a small trade up. Too hard to turn that extra first down though to sit there and take him up at 11 though.
This is an excellent point. You need to draft OL prospects.
Since taking over, how many OL prospects has DG chosen in the first two rounds? First three? First four?
Quote:
In comment 15316332 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15316325 Ned In Atlanta said:
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Drafting zero OL and dumpster diving for free agents could prove to be a bad strategy
Or, It could be brilliant.
Don’t confuse neglect combined with luck as brilliance
It is getting beyond annoying to see the same bullshit - what is basically a bunch of "yeah, buts" - they drafted 3 the year before. There were only 6 picks this. They needed ERs, DB and WRs too.
We all want a good line. And IMHO, talent is one thing but coaching is every bit as important, if not more. Yea, Yea, Yea...it is the latest what have they done lately.
How many OL were chosen in the first three rounds during DG's entire tenure to date?
This is HAWG MAWLLIE DAVE, mind you. OL should never be an afterthought here.
I hope it isn't serious, he's got a shot to cement place in the league this year and it would really be a shame if an injury derailed that for him.
2 - i have repeatedly ripped their offseasons for not addressing the line properly and you could have made the case they should have used the money they spent on adoree on an OL. but adoree is young and was a huge position of need too. and nobody here really disliked their draft. they had a ton of holes and drafted at positions of need and got great value throughout while picking up extra picks next year. it is unfair to criticize the front office for this offseason in my view
3 - injuries happen across the league. some guys are going to get hurt in camp. next man up. losing shane lemiuex should not derail the season.
2 - i have repeatedly ripped their offseasons for not addressing the line properly and you could have made the case they should have used the money they spent on adoree on an OL. but adoree is young and was a huge position of need too. and nobody here really disliked their draft. they had a ton of holes and drafted at positions of need and got great value throughout while picking up extra picks next year. it is unfair to criticize the front office for this offseason in my view
3 - injuries happen across the league. some guys are going to get hurt in camp. next man up. losing shane lemiuex should not derail the season.
Like losing Peart?
Which one is more established?
Can't trust Raanan. OP says Raanan went in at LG.
2 - i have repeatedly ripped their offseasons for not addressing the line properly and you could have made the case they should have used the money they spent on adoree on an OL. but adoree is young and was a huge position of need too. and nobody here really disliked their draft. they had a ton of holes and drafted at positions of need and got great value throughout while picking up extra picks next year. it is unfair to criticize the front office for this offseason in my view
3 - injuries happen across the league. some guys are going to get hurt in camp. next man up. losing shane lemiuex should not derail the season.
Yeh I'd be more worried about losing one of the tackles for a long stretch or Gates. That has potential for disaster, especially if Solder is washed up. Almost all teams need to roll the dice at some position going into a season outside of a few. Hopefully next year we can add some interior line talent and be one of those teams.
saying the WR group was in better shape than the OL is irrelevant. you are not just drafting by the biggest need.
and the WR group was not in good shape. shep is ALWAYS hurt, mediocre when healthy, and in all likelihood in the final year with the team. slayton was good as a rookie and bad last year. the WR group was not in good shape and toney provided immediate and long-term value. i'm not sold on toney the player and preferred moore over him, but ripping them for taking a WR is not completely fair
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I wonder if other teams avoid reinforcing the weakest part of their roster?
How many teams had as many holes on their roster? I would say ER, 2nd CB and WR were just as devoid of talent as OLine...
They drafted 3 guys the year before. They had weakness at other areas too. Like Zeke said, you cannot fix them all in one year. FA was LW, Golladay and Jackson and a few lesser players including OL.
I've been critical of the OL but it would have been a reach for any of the OL at 20. I think AVT was the target and the Jets moved up for him. That's the risk in trading down but one I'm happy they took since it means a potential top 10 pick. They could have traded down there again I guess and grabbed whoever was their R2 target(s). That should have been considered but it's impossible to say if that was even on the table for them. The 2nd round probably had a guy that could step in and improve the unit but would you trade that for Ojulari + a 3rd? I wouldn't. So after that it was likely more of the same in terms of improving the starting unit.
I think cutting of Zeitler combined with the Rudolph signing are where I see the potential mistake. The money given to Rudolph could have gone to a starting OL on a 1-2 year prove it deal, like Turner. It's not apples to apples in terms of structure, but Zeitler signed with Ravens for marginally more than what we signed Rudolph for.
Reports on Turner out of Steeler camp have not been good. He's also been terrible the last couple of seasons. I'm not sure Turner solves anything.
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In comment 15316423 Bill L said:
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I wonder if other teams avoid reinforcing the weakest part of their roster?
How many teams had as many holes on their roster? I would say ER, 2nd CB and WR were just as devoid of talent as OLine...
They drafted 3 guys the year before. They had weakness at other areas too. Like Zeke said, you cannot fix them all in one year. FA was LW, Golladay and Jackson and a few lesser players including OL.
Are you going to plant your flag and say that you can make a shitty OL work with good skill position players more easily than making shitty skill position players work with a good OL?
You really want to have that be your POV on this?
The other guys are bottom of the roster guys but one of them could step up when given a chance. Be concerned but don’t panic YET.
They needed to address the following
LB/ER
CB
WR
OL
RB - reserve
They were able to do all but OL in 2021 and there is a chance they will be OK there.
They are well positioned to address OL next year as they will have no other glaring holes (other than possibly edge) and could easily draft 3 OL in rounds 1-3 where they have 5 picks.
That would position them well for a serious 2022 run and very well for 2023.
This presumes that DJ works out and no career ending injuries of key players.
They needed to address the following
LB/ER
CB
WR
OL
RB - reserve
They were able to do all but OL in 2021 and there is a chance they will be OK there.
They are well positioned to address OL next year as they will have no other glaring holes (other than possibly edge) and could easily draft 3 OL in rounds 1-3 where they have 5 picks.
That would position them well for a serious 2022 run and very well for 2023.
This presumes that DJ works out and no career ending injuries of key players.
they will have holes next year to fill excluding the OL. i'm not saying they should be filled as bigger priorities than the OL but they will have other holes and it's not as simple as to say most other things are fixed and they can just focus on the OL
- S (if peppers leaves)
- TE is going to be a massive hole (rudolph could be a cap casualty or completely cooked and EE will not be re-signed)
- WR is slayton plays like he did last year
- QB is a possibility
- CB and MLB are bradbury and martinez would be entering into the final years of their deals, both can be re-signed but they may want to draft replacements for cap purposes
- DL to replace hill who will likely walk
One thing the beats already said is Jones is getting the ball out quick. The OL will be better with the skill positions added (and Rudolph) provided Jones takes a big step. The skill guys last year needed more time to get open.
I also believe we are going to see significant scheme changes. People mention Kitchens but I think Sale has had big imput as well.
i don't mean for this to come off douchey but look up the draft results. there was 1, 1 offensive lineman picked between picks 21 - 32 and that was darrisaw, who would have competed against Peart for a starting spot
Are you going to plant your flag and say that you can make a shitty OL work with good skill position players more easily than making shitty skill position players work with a good OL?
You really want to have that be your POV on this?
Green Bay did that for years, so it can be done as an example. Not what I said though, was it.
You love making statements for people and expressing your opinion as theirs if it can fit your narrative.
My position, and no one gives a fuck about my opinion or yours as a deciding factor on how the team is built, is that better coaches produce better players. Aside from the Cowboys, most teams have at least 3 JAGS on their lines. The good ones have maybe two very good or better players.
It all goes back to, they drafted 3 players in 2020 and moved another guy from RG/RT to center who played pretty well to very well by year end. They had other holes to fill. That is where they chose to spend their time and money because that was where they probably felt the most bang for the buck is - you disagree.
If you feel that should have paid high money for some meh OL in FA, that is fine and it rarely pays off. But Judge and DG thought spending money to finish off DB, DL and WR was more important.
They had holes at the positions I pointed out. Yes, OL could use help. They obviously felt that better coaching was going to get more accomplished. Also, there will be vets cut loose later in camp that they can pick up for a lot less money. But then again you knew that.
There was no clear consensus BPA at 20, it was a pretty flat range. However there was a drop off at OL after AVT/Darrisaw, they were in a deadzone at that position. Toney was going to get picked in the first round, the Jags and Ravens would have taken him. So he went in a range he was supposed to go in, probably the high end of that range but a range he was projected to go (bottom 1/top 2). I have no idea if was THE BPA for the Giants but he was BPA at a position of need which is how teams pick.
I'm on the record of not liking the pick BTW, I preferred Moore if they went WR and was on board with Paye at that spot.
DG pretty much admitted after the draft that once the Eagles jumped us for Devonta Smith, we were set to draft Vera-Tucker. Then the Bears offered us the trade...so we basically sacrificed an immediate OL upgrade for really good draft picks for next year.
I think any reasonable fan would admit the Giants still left the cupboard pretty bare on the OL. Hope Thomas proves to be the guy at LT, and the rest stay healthy and outperform expectations. Lemieux missing any meaningful time wouldn't be a great start
I was just listening to the latest Just Giants podcast and they made a point about a very vocal minority of fans who make everything that happens to the team as a villification of Gettleman. We see that play out on BBI daily.
And much like is pointed out here in many threads, they commented that even though the arrow is seemingly pointing up, that vocal minority wants to relive 2018 over and over again.
I do dispute it's a very vocal minority that has lost patience and faith with the current GM. I think a large majority of the fan base would like to see a change at the GM spot. Because they do blame everything that goes wrong on a guy who is older, doesn't present himself well in public and comes off as extremely arrogant.
That doesn't mean they're right but this whole thing about a vocal minority is opinion and far from fact. Have Dave walk out to the 50 yard line 5 minutes before the kickoff against the Broncos and wave to the crowd and see what kind of reaction he gets.
Does it really matter at this point? Every teams draft board is different, schemes are different and you will draft for need if the players are rated close. Clearly he was the best rated WR on the Giants board. Some people had him rated very high and others not so much and some like Sy had a red mark for character so that skews the grade as well. At this point hes our guy and we should all hope that he plays like the #1 overall pick. There is no point in not cheering for the kid to be great to prove the Giants made the wrong pick. I didnt want to pick him but thankfully Mara hasnt asked my opinion.
So, it’s not like our dreams are dashed, because this was always going to be, in the best case scenario, another rebuilding year. Getting over .500, winning the division or a Wild Card, and getting to the playoffs are our expectation, stretch and prayer goals. So let’s hang in there a little while longer BBIers.
“You have two guys with Golladay you have a guy who has put up some big numbers in this league,” Mara said. “John Ross is someone who has some unique speed, and we think we might hit on him as well. Surrounding Daniel with more weapons was certainly a priority coming into this offseason.”
So no surprise Toney was the pick at #20.
Overall the Giants are in the bottom 3rd in the league in oline cost this year. The most costly player of the group is the backup swing tackle — and remember the Giants very easily could have cut Solder and saved an additional 3M dollars.
The Giants took a high risk, high reward approach to the line. They are betting on 4/5 of the line doing something they’ve never done — play a full season of NFL average or above games.
The only player on the line who you can say, if that guy has a repeat of last year, we’re good, is Gates.
Given the trouble Gettleman’s had putting together a competent group, I was surprised with the approach.
I do dispute it's a very vocal minority that has lost patience and faith with the current GM. I think a large majority of the fan base would like to see a change at the GM spot. Because they do blame everything that goes wrong on a guy who is older, doesn't present himself well in public and comes off as extremely arrogant.
That doesn't mean they're right but this whole thing about a vocal minority is opinion and far from fact. Have Dave walk out to the 50 yard line 5 minutes before the kickoff against the Broncos and wave to the crowd and see what kind of reaction he gets.
Agreed. Gettleman-haters may be a relatively small group but Gettleman-dislikers is much larger than his fan club members would like to admit. Including the president of it above.
Hell, even the DG fan club basically turned this into "We trust Judge" approach this offseason because of tiring support for him. No GM bats a thousand, but as long as he is now working in combination with Judge or Judge signs off on things then everything is okay.
whatever...
It’s a fan site to debate football. Maybe the silent majority can kick in some opinions?
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That 20/20 vision is awesome!
I was just listening to the latest Just Giants podcast and they made a point about a very vocal minority of fans who make everything that happens to the team as a villification of Gettleman. We see that play out on BBI daily.
And much like is pointed out here in many threads, they commented that even though the arrow is seemingly pointing up, that vocal minority wants to relive 2018 over and over again.
The mistakes that began in 2018 are why the team sucks. Gettleman's job performance from the day he was hired is the worst of any Giant coach or executive that I can recall in over 30 years of following the team.
And be honest - if Gettleman had performed well in 2018 you'd be mentioning it at every opportunity. Shit you mention the four Super Bowls when people criticize John Mara's job performance...and he wasn't even working for the Giants in '86.
Bottom line is Gettleman has been an abject disaster - and that disaster is built on the two brutal draft picks of Barkley and Jones.
Hey maybe we'll enjoy being over .500 at some point this year. Haven't been able to do that since December 2016.
“You have two guys with Golladay you have a guy who has put up some big numbers in this league,” Mara said. “John Ross is someone who has some unique speed, and we think we might hit on him as well. Surrounding Daniel with more weapons was certainly a priority coming into this offseason.”
So no surprise Toney was the pick at #20.
Everyone and their brother knew they wanted DaVonta Smith before the Eagles swiped him.
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That 20/20 vision is awesome!
I was just listening to the latest Just Giants podcast and they made a point about a very vocal minority of fans who make everything that happens to the team as a villification of Gettleman. We see that play out on BBI daily.
And much like is pointed out here in many threads, they commented that even though the arrow is seemingly pointing up, that vocal minority wants to relive 2018 over and over again.
Yep.
It has not been great but they have added some very good players and depth. Even if Jones does not work out the next QB will be stepping into a much better situation than he did. We may have a top 8 D this year.
I never felt Dave was hired and told "do whatever you want to fix it". He has had parameters (Eli mandate) and in his defense he was took over a very poor roster from years of poor drafting. They are making progress albeit slower than hoped.
The OL will be okay and keeping it low cost is the best way to build long term success. The excess cost they had starting 2009 on the OL was the biggest factor for the decline imv. Keep drafting and developing OL each year.
DG has been a middling GM so far imo and his two biggest mistakes, far and away, was the hiring of Shurmur and the clown car and the judgement of the team going into 2018 (this assesment led to very poor decisions) Seems like he got the coaching staff right the second time (only time will tell, but if you aint excited about Judge and staff, don't know what to tell you) and personally I think he got the QB right.
2021 is truly a make-or-break year for this franchise and yet some don't believe it's possible. Which is fine, but to point at the past 8 years is, to me, completely assinine and irrelevant. Blasphemy to say, but if the team turns around next year, I think you have to look at DG positively. He did take over a complete clusterfuck.
It’s a fan site to debate football. Maybe the silent majority can kick in some opinions?
That is one of the funnier things around here lately - the "vocal minority".
The arrogance of this equally vocal "majority" - the lemmings - is unbelievable. Especially when they preach their other go-to mantra about what a real fan is and how this real fan should post.
You go girl.
Pat Leonard Report - ( New Window )
DeCastro had ankle surgery and wouldn't be ready for wk 1.
You go girl.
yes, go...
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This vocal minority thing is weird. The GM has not spent a single day above .500. I bet a straw poll wouldn’t me be kind to Rabbit Foot Dave.
It’s a fan site to debate football. Maybe the silent majority can kick in some opinions?
That is one of the funnier things around here lately - the "vocal minority".
The arrogance of this equally vocal "majority" - the lemmings - is unbelievable. Especially when they preach their other go-to mantra about what a real fan is and how this real fan should post.
Why don't you tweet a reply to the Just Giants podcast then. They called it a vocal minority - and if you look at this board, That holds exactly true too.
Just because you and a couple other posters take up most threads to bash the GM, with plenty of references to 2018 doesn't mean that most of teh fanbase agrees.
Heck, The Giants Insider podcast references this frequently as well. That the minority of fans ripping Jones and Gettleman don't seem to mesh with the majority of the fanbase - and certainly not the team itself.
Well, I do because the majority want a monolithic BBI, but I find that totally insulting. This organization has struggled for a decade to get out of its own way. They deserve no benefit of the doubt UNTIL we start winning more games in a season than we lose.
It's always easier to follow the mainstream. It's safe - like a warm blanket.
Candidly, I don't mind optimism is it makes sense. But posting articles about Daniel Jones having a steak dinner where he spews endless cliches is not reason - for me - to feel better about Jones heading into '21. It's a perfect example of your favorite word - ponderous.
Except for those years when the team was winning Super Bowls, which is still one of those pesky things you can't explain very well.
The minority opinion, whether its vocal or not, should have the same right to be heard as any majority. In fact, even moreso if you are attempting at all to have a meaningful conversation or debate.
If the goal is to just pile on like lemmings when the minority opinion, or God forbid critics of anything NY Giants, announces itself then you have your answer as to why threads go side-ways so quickly.
Or is the call out of the vocal minority just your way to bring back calling posters "contrarians" once again? That nugget seems to have fallen out of your vocabulary as of late, huh...
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That 20/20 vision is awesome!
I was just listening to the latest Just Giants podcast and they made a point about a very vocal minority of fans who make everything that happens to the team as a villification of Gettleman. We see that play out on BBI daily.
And much like is pointed out here in many threads, they commented that even though the arrow is seemingly pointing up, that vocal minority wants to relive 2018 over and over again.
What type of reasonable person wouldn't question a GM's decision-making with 15 wins over three years?
The minority opinion, whether its vocal or not, should have the same right to be heard as any majority. In fact, even moreso if you are attempting at all to have a meaningful conversation or debate.
If the goal is to just pile on like lemmings when the minority opinion, or God forbid critics of anything NY Giants, announces itself then you have your answer as to why threads go side-ways so quickly.
Or is the call out of the vocal minority just your way to bring back calling posters "contrarians" once again? That nugget seems to have fallen out of your vocabulary as of late, huh...
And, how does an organization quantify a fan base's happiness with a a GM? lol. Certainly not wins, in our case.
And so the Pot has spoken.
One of the all-time hypocritical posts.
Jimmy Googs : 7/28/2021 11:32 pm : link : reply
In comment 15315941 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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But then again, you spend most of the time telling people what posts are bad by them. Or bad looks.
Best example of hypocrisy on the board...
IIRC, non-contact knee injuries are usually pretty bad. I assume no contact because I don't think it's allowed yet. And everyone was saying it didn't appear to be a leg injury???
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RE: LOL..
Jimmy Googs : 7/28/2021 11:32 pm : link : reply
In comment 15315941 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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But then again, you spend most of the time telling people what posts are bad by them. Or bad looks.
Best example of hypocrisy on the board...
Clownshoes. You spend many posts telling people "bad post" and assorted other comments like that as if you are an arbiter of anything.
You should eliminate "hypocrisy" from your vocabulary. You tell people "bad post" or "bad look" after you were literally kicked off the board, took on a dupe handle for a year and returned doing the same things you did prior to being banned (and while being banned).
The idea of you calling anyone hypocritical is the definition of the fucking word.
It's why you are Jimmy Clownshoes.
I forgot to ask - if I posted the "same thing over and over again, ad nauseum" but you agreed with it, would you still respond similarly?
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That 20/20 vision is awesome!
I was just listening to the latest Just Giants podcast and they made a point about a very vocal minority of fans who make everything that happens to the team as a villification of Gettleman. We see that play out on BBI daily.
And much like is pointed out here in many threads, they commented that even though the arrow is seemingly pointing up, that vocal minority wants to relive 2018 over and over again.
You’re so quick to criticize anyone who is critical of gettleman. He’s done an objectively horrible job in spite of having three top 6 picks the last three years. The division was horrible last year and they couldn’t even win it. The o line is still bad and we’re all supposed to have blind optimism in a first year coach and a young line that sucked last year and lost their most reliable lineman who was snatched up quickly by an organization who knows what they’re doing
The idea of you calling anyone hypocritical is the definition of the fucking word.
I can see the hypocrisy posts are getting under your skin a bit. That's when the cursing starts like above.
Staying on topic, why not respond in kind to all the comments you received on your little "vocal minority" lesson? A bunch of folks have chimed in.
Or is there an escape hatch coming in your near future?
I guess the preference would be something like this.
"Joe Judge is going to figure it out, he's the best, this makes me MORE excited for the season to see what he can do with a more unproven line"
It's especially odd that the person who has become enemy of the state here Jerry Reese, largely failed by overemphasizing the skill positions on offense and not taking care of the line, or understanding the strengths of his franchise QB.
I know the constant chorus of of could a FAN know more than the Giants!!
But I don't know what's so complicated about saying, hey, DJ would look great in the RPO, maybe a lot more OL help would be more valuable to us than Toney and a lot FA dollars deployed but almost zero on the OL.
Are we going to get treated to another season where we call the team devoid of talent but argue that we don't need wholesale changes in the front office? God I hope not.
I think people have expressed a lot more than “more concern”.
The same argument using the same language in multiple posts every day spanning what seems like an eon.
DG has been a middling GM so far imo and his two biggest mistakes, far and away, was the hiring of Shurmur and the clown car and the judgement of the team going into 2018 (this assesment led to very poor decisions) Seems like he got the coaching staff right the second time (only time will tell, but if you aint excited about Judge and staff, don't know what to tell you) and personally I think he got the QB right.
2021 is truly a make-or-break year for this franchise and yet some don't believe it's possible. Which is fine, but to point at the past 8 years is, to me, completely assinine and irrelevant. Blasphemy to say, but if the team turns around next year, I think you have to look at DG positively. He did take over a complete clusterfuck.
I don't really want to burst your bubble but the Giants are the only team in the NFL with a Superbowl WIN in each of the last 4 decades:
2011
2007
1990
1986
So there's that little fact...
The same argument using the same language in multiple posts every day spanning what seems like an eon.
Seems plausible. I don't know why Go Terps is so anti-Jones. Particularly because a third year is not unheard of with any first round pick at QB. Fmic and his following are overmatched though in response.
DG has been a middling GM so far imo and his two biggest mistakes, far and away, was the hiring of Shurmur and the clown car and the judgement of the team going into 2018 (this assesment led to very poor decisions) Seems like he got the coaching staff right the second time (only time will tell, but if you aint excited about Judge and staff, don't know what to tell you) and personally I think he got the QB right.
2021 is truly a make-or-break year for this franchise and yet some don't believe it's possible. Which is fine, but to point at the past 8 years is, to me, completely assinine and irrelevant. Blasphemy to say, but if the team turns around next year, I think you have to look at DG positively. He did take over a complete clusterfuck.
It's not that we believe it's sure fire going to continue to suck, just that this ownership/FO has lost any benefit of the doubt from us after years of poor decision making and equally poor results. The Knicks were a laughingstock for what 20 years? What changed this season? They won. That's where some of us are at with the Giants: they're a bad team until they prove otherwise.
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Terps and FMiC are not simply two one-trick, deranged posters, but actually the same, super-deranged poster arguing with themself?
The same argument using the same language in multiple posts every day spanning what seems like an eon.
Seems plausible. I don't know why Go Terps is so anti-Jones. Particularly because a third year is not unheard of with any first round pick at QB. Fmic and his following are overmatched though in response.
I'm not anti-Jones - it's just the reality of the situation. He has no pocket presence and he struggles to see anything past his first read. He also struggles on play action from under center when he has to turn his back to the defense and read the developing play.
He can do two things really well: run the ball on designed plays and deliver the ball accurately to his first read. That's not nothing - I think he could be effective either as a Cam Newton type where his running is the feature, or possibly in a Stefanski/Shanahan/McVay style offense that gets him out of the pocket, cuts the field in half, and prescribes his throws.
But we have Garrett, who wants to deliver the ball deep from the pocket after establishing the run. Combine that with our offensive line and it's a recipe for third and long (a category where the Giants had the most in the league in 2020). Low success, high risk situations.
I expect Jones's struggles to continue partially because of his limitations and partially because of his situation. The crucial question is whether it's worth picking up his option, and IMO anything short of a huge Josh Allen type of third year means we have to find a new quarterback for 2022 due to his contract situation and our extra first round pick in 2022.
I don't hate Jones, but the situation is what it is.
I used to love that game (lemmings) back in the 80's. Or was it early 90's? Pretty sure it was early 90's.
Who laughed at sticking with Lemieux at OG?
I literally didn't see a single post saying that. Hernandez maybe but not Lemieux.
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It isn't about volume - it is content. You post a variation of the same thing over and over again, ad nauseum. And it isn't just occasionally - it is every day.
And so the Pot has spoken.
One of the all-time hypocritical posts.
Actually, Fats is correct. I get nausea the minute I see you and Terps jump up and down preaching. Not to say you cannot be right and they crash and burn this season. If so, we will applaud you. But it is effin annoying that a thread doesn't pass that one of you(or both) is telling us all how bad DG is...we get it. We have read it a few hundred times. Can we please, I ask you kindly, please get out of training camp first before you declare the season and the next decade lost because DG is a moron and the stupidest man to ever enter a pro football facility. Can we please have a moment to enjoy camp reports and debate players without be called idiots and lemmings.
https://thespun.com/nfl/nfc-east/new-york-giants/giants-gm-dave-gettleman-admits-he-made-a-mistake
He said the following:
“I thought we could do both at the same time and I was wrong,” Gettleman admitted on ESPN Radio, via Art Stapleton.
=======================
This was his blunder. This is why many of us went after him like we did- because it is mind-numbingly stupid logic. And there were many on here that instead held the attitude "Well I'll trust his POV over yours and others." Any fan that was fair could see he was blundering.
But now we got quite a few picks in 2022. That's a very good sign imo. Very happy about this and what DG did (and I assume Judge too.). So many of us that didn't think much of the team this year- this injury shouldn't move the needle. Frankly, I liked Giants got Fulton but I saw reaction on here when we got him - and it was so muted I figured then he must be done. Hopefully, he isn't.
I do like what we're doing. This injury changes little. I wanted upgrades to the OL - but we weren't going to be that good anyway - so I can wait. And hope to be shocked.
===============
And ofc we have some posters on here that will defend the Giants and lash out at anyone that complains as much as possible. Kind of funny- one poster on this thread that brought-up vocal-minority regarding DG - last year he claimed "I never defended Dave Gettleman." Just to see how many people came at him - and he still kept fighting and insulting - pretty comical.
Anyhow, I expect a 7-10 year. Am okay with that because I think our GM and Head Coach have set up things well for next year.
But what gets a little annoying is that it almost appears as if some fans are more frustrated with those that have accurately identified in the past the team was going to suck by taking out some frustration out of the overall incompetence of the team for these several years- rather than cheerlead. Yet the cheerleading seems to want to attack those fans rather than attack the garbage they've had to watch over the last several years. - Very odd.
But as I said - things look good for 2022. This year anything good that happens it's a bonus. I really like the opportunities in 2022.
1-- I'm okay with Jones. Not saying he is going to be great - but if I'm okay with Jones then the big need is the OL. If this year the OL does well (which I highly doubt) - then I'd expect Jones to do well enough. If they don't then I think it will be obvious upgrades are needed at OL. Have more than enough between picks and FA to fix.
2--- I believe in Judge. I don't think much of the Dallas coach either. And I think until Washington gets a QB they are limited. And Philly's coach questionable.
3--- I respect when management admits specifically what they did wrong. But more than that-- this has been my whole point of blasting DG-.-- Hubris. Excessive hubris. Since day one he had it, flaunted it-- and for a team I felt sucked - had little-to-no-shot-to-win-- he should've went all-in on rebuilding. Instead between his a combo of drafting, free agent signings, and trades - his moves were silly for a complete rebuild which I felt was needed. - Hubris thinking he could win with such an awful roster.
4-- As someone who felt team was awful all over many positions- how can I not appreciate all the trading down? And acquiring draft picks for the following year? That's exactly one of two ways I think it takes to rebuild. For someone like me that wanted a rebuild, acquiring multiple picks is awesome. What else can I say?
Actually, Fats is correct. I get nausea the minute I see you and Terps jump up and down preaching. Not to say you cannot be right and they crash and burn this season. If so, we will applaud you. But it is effin annoying that a thread doesn't pass that one of you(or both) is telling us all how bad DG is...we get it. We have read it a few hundred times. Can we please, I ask you kindly, please get out of training camp first before you declare the season and the next decade lost because DG is a moron and the stupidest man to ever enter a pro football facility. Can we please have a moment to enjoy camp reports and debate players without be called idiots and lemmings.
Where have I said this season is going to be a failure before it starts? The subject I have most written about this upcoming season is how many points we will likely need to get to the playoffs; and how Jones will need to impact that. Which is inexplicably a sore topic for some because I'm placing expectations on Jones. And that is considered way out of bounds around here with the vocal majority.
I have made NO predictions about record, playoffs, etc.
Alas, like the Fatman in Charlotte, you have become quite deft at putting words in my mouth and distorting what I write.
Quote:
Where have I said this season is going to be a failure before it starts? The subject I have most written about this upcoming season is how many points we will likely need to get to the playoffs; and how Jones will need to impact that. Which is inexplicably a sore topic for some because I'm placing expectations on Jones. And that is considered way out of bounds around here with the vocal majority.
I have made NO predictions about record, playoffs, etc.
Alas, like the Fatman in Charlotte, you have become quite deft at putting words in my mouth and distorting what I write.
"Have become?"
This is what he has always done.
Quote:
Going into this offseason the Giants were in position to make moves that would have them contend for playoffs and division crown. They were two years away from championship contention.
They needed to address the following
LB/ER
CB
WR
OL
RB - reserve
They were able to do all but OL in 2021 and there is a chance they will be OK there.
They are well positioned to address OL next year as they will have no other glaring holes (other than possibly edge) and could easily draft 3 OL in rounds 1-3 where they have 5 picks.
That would position them well for a serious 2022 run and very well for 2023.
This presumes that DJ works out and no career ending injuries of key players.
they will have holes next year to fill excluding the OL. i'm not saying they should be filled as bigger priorities than the OL but they will have other holes and it's not as simple as to say most other things are fixed and they can just focus on the OL
- S (if peppers leaves)
- TE is going to be a massive hole (rudolph could be a cap casualty or completely cooked and EE will not be re-signed)
- WR is slayton plays like he did last year
- QB is a possibility
- CB and MLB are bradbury and martinez would be entering into the final years of their deals, both can be re-signed but they may want to draft replacements for cap purposes
- DL to replace hill who will likely walk
Of course you always need new players. The other two high picks plus 2 4th round picks could be used as appropriate. Plus there is Free Agency. TE is a relatively inexpensive position to fill. I agree that it all goes to shit if DJ stumbles.
You want to downplay Lemieux's injury by downplaying Lemieux's value, and that's fine.
Just realize that the 5th round draft pick who started 9 games last year is also their best OG at the moment.
It cuts both ways.
You may think I am targeting you and FMiC in my posts and to an extent I am. I've read both your posts for years and I think you both know the game. When I see what both your posts degenerate into I think the board loses a lot.
There are plenty of morons who post all the time about Jones and I wouldn't waste a minute of my time on them because all they know is how to shout an unsupported opinion. I think you two both bring a lot more when you just post perspectives like that.
Sermon over.