I straddle button and my nephew calls to my immediate left.
, several other callers.
I look down at 10-8d, I raise to try to thin the field, 4x.
Get three callers, my nephew is one of them.
Flop comes 10s, 8s, Jd.
Obviously there are possible straight combos but feel my two pair is good here often. Checks to me and I bet half pot.
Nephew calls, and an absolute calling station calls.
Turn is 7d which gives me the 9d draw to a straight flush.
There's a $777 high hand bonus so I don't want to bet people out when I have a chance to win the bonus. Checks around turn.
River is a terrible card for me, it's a 6c leaving a 1-liner to the straight. Multi-way with ranges very wide, nephew bets large.
Calling station makes the call. I show my two pair to my other neighbor to my right and say, "I guess this is never good here," and lay it down.
Nephew shows K-5d for air, calling station shows 10-6 for worse two pair and scoops.
I look at nephew with surprise bc I re-staked him after he busted earlier, and can't believe he bluffed me off my hand. I say, "I can't believe you bluffed there," bc of the one-liner and bc there's an absolute station behind and you have to have a hand to bet into her, plus I think he probably isn't bluffing me bc I'm family.
He's incensed... at ME for daring to question his line after he bluffed me off the river.
I'm like, I'm the one who got screwed, why are you pissed?
I say, you're only pissed bc your bluff got called down and you lost and you're taking it out on me. He leaves table, current situation is he thinks I'm the a-hole for "embarrassing him at the table for questioning his bluff," when I never bluff family off their hand in a casino in that spot.
Am I the a-hole?
At a casino, especially after I re-staked him when he busted, I don't expect him to bluff bc for one, it's me, and for two, there's very little chance the player in middle position is going to fold, she's calling light all night and we both knew it.
Objectively, because she was in the hand, it's a bad spot to bluff because it's unlikely she's ever folding.
Aside from that, I felt it was dirty poker to bet me off there.
For additional context, he also earlier doubled through me after he shoved on me when I hit top pair and he showed up with an over pair, this is after I re-staked him.
I didn't give him shit for that at all. It was good poker.
Also, he knew I had busted a $140 tourney earlier. I got 7th and made final table, but only 4 got paid (31 entries).
I hope you don't mind if I disregard your reply given our history.
I wasn't so mad at the bluff, I was mad that he was pissed at me for telling him it was a bad bluff given the middle player isn't folding almost ever.
For him to give me a ration of shit after he bet me off the winner on a bad bluff is what I mainly took exception to.
I didn't choose the table.
He told me it was a great table and I should come and play at it, but I was assigned the table, I don't get the option to pick. Just worked out that way (there was a waiting list).
And it was a great table for awhile.
I was up to $700 after a $260 buy-in. I ran terribly after that and got crushed.
You got beat on the hand. Whether it was by “good poker” or bad, that’s it. Bite your lip, tell a friend who wasn’t playing in that particular game, tell your therapist, post on the internet about it….all acceptable. But don’t take it up with the person who beat you on the bluff as if they did something wrong. They won the hand. Bluff worked.
You got beat on the hand. Whether it was by “good poker” or bad, that’s it. Bite your lip, tell a friend who wasn’t playing in that particular game, tell your therapist, post on the internet about it….all acceptable. But don’t take it up with the person who beat you on the bluff as if they did something wrong. They won the hand. Bluff worked.
Except bluff didn't work, he punted his chips and mine to a player who was never folding even a marginal holding.
On a side note I have no idea why that 10-6 was even in the hand with a 4X raise.
Other than that seems just like regular poker to me, nobody should have been pissed at anyone
You got beat on the hand. Whether it was by “good poker” or bad, that’s it. Bite your lip, tell a friend who wasn’t playing in that particular game, tell your therapist, post on the internet about it….all acceptable. But don’t take it up with the person who beat you on the bluff as if they did something wrong. They won the hand. Bluff worked.
Also, what exactly am I wrong about? Saying, "I can't believe you bluffed there?" It was a horrific bluff spot and a truthful reaction. Does he ever hold any responsibility for losing his shit for me making a truthful statement like that?
On a side note I have no idea why that 10-6 was even in the hand with a 4X raise.
Other than that seems just like regular poker to me, nobody should have been pissed at anyone
Because that player who made that call is terrible. Honestly I'm only getting her to fold with maybe a 6x sizing or more, but was happy to play in position with my hand multi-way for that amount.
And 3 legit hands Q 9, J 10, 9, 7 (legit if 10-6 and 8-10 are) would be in powerful positions there.
Good bluff, good call by the 10-6 even if they were crazy to be in the hand, but kind of just sounds like they also may just be a bad poker player that calls anything close to a good hand.
My point is that you have no right to take it up with him. He owes you no more duty/loyalty/whatever than he owes any player at that table. If there is any such dynamic there, spoken or unspoken, that’s actually unfair to the other players at the table.
Now, if your point is that you want to help him play better poker…maybe the delivery is the issue. Tough line to walk if you’re playing the angle of offering advice when you also have an axe to grind about the hand you lost as a result.
I was raising a lot pre and continuing with hands with good equity when I was in position.
Position was everything and suited gappers with a limped pot was good to raise there given the table dynamics.
Obv floppimg two-pair when checked to and making a bet is reasonable. I never got raised and then hit my gutter to straight flush, which does complicate the board but also puts me in potential position to hit the bonus.
I'm not playing this hand this way if I'm in MP or BB. Probably calling and seeing the flop. But I think raising button when limped to is perfectly reasonable.
My point is that you have no right to take it up with him. He owes you no more duty/loyalty/whatever than he owes any player at that table. If there is any such dynamic there, spoken or unspoken, that’s actually unfair to the other players at the table.
Now, if your point is that you want to help him play better poker…maybe the delivery is the issue. Tough line to walk if you’re playing the angle of offering advice when you also have an axe to grind about the hand you lost as a result.
Bluff only works if it gets through both players. Given MP player is never folding short of a jam, and probably not even them with her exact holding, the bluff was objectively a horrible play, and I expected my nephew, who should know not to make such a play against this opponent type, to not punt off with complete air.
If it's just me and him in the hand, it's a strong play and very reasonable line. Against MP player, AND me, it's a total punt.
He got the better hand out, what's to say he couldn't get both?
Easy to say it's bad when he was called.
You aren't Phil Hellmuth lol. I don't understand the obsession with what is good play and bad play. There are things that are just like objectively horrific and stupid, this isn't one of them. Everything else is just poker but a lot of people have a lot of things to say about other people's poker
I personally bluff frequently / bet draws, bet higher on my worse hands than my great hands... sometimes. Maybe you and your nephew play many more times and he gets you because you think he'll bluff anything. There is substantially more gray than right and wrong in my opinion
I thought your question was whether you were the jerk for what turned into somewhat of a conflict between you and your nephew.
To me, those are 2 very separate issues - his play could be fully bad in poker terms, and you can at the same time be 100% at fault for the personal conflict.
I thought your post was asking the forum to weigh in on the latter. Perhaps I got that wrong.
He got the better hand out, what's to say he couldn't get both?
Easy to say it's bad when he was called.
You aren't Phil Hellmuth lol. I don't understand the obsession with what is good play and bad play. There are things that are just like objectively horrific and stupid, this isn't one of them. Everything else is just poker but a lot of people have a lot of things to say about other people's poker
I personally bluff frequently / bet draws, bet higher on my worse hands than my great hands... sometimes. Maybe you and your nephew play many more times and he gets you because you think he'll bluff anything. There is substantially more gray than right and wrong in my opinion
Ok cool. But even my nephew described MP as a calling station when we discussed afterwards.
It was backed up by her play all night long. That's why bluff never gets through. Not the first time she called down on 4-line boards with as little as 2nd pair. She had been stacked multiple times, once by me, calling light to big river bets, with both of us at the table. If she only has a 10 there she's calling, and he knew it, and bluffed anyway.
I also bluff frequently on connected boards, but obviously adjust play to specific opponent type.
In terms of nephew and I, he's admitted I'm a better player than he, but I always tell him he's close, bc he does have some skill. That's what aggravated me most, because he's not a total donkey and not only should he not have bluffs into two players, especially her, but he shouldn't have even been in the hand aftery flop bet. Bottom line we both witnessed her ca off very light about 6 or 7 times at least, and very few lay downs, and I think none after she put money in the pot post flop.
I honestly don't think his bluff is terrible against good players, just not in this spot. Only bad part of the bluff is he blocks diamond draws he should want his opponents to have when bluffing there. If he has K-5h or K-5c it's a better bluff spot.
Anyway, this was an interesting hand but I think the unfortunate part about it is the friction we have now after this. I definitely should've gotten up from the table bc I was tilted after that. I'm not putting my whole loss on him, but I do feel it was a little dirty pool against me bc I wouldn't have done the same to him in that setting. Respect those that feel differently because poker is poker and bluffing is a big part of the game.
I thought your question was whether you were the jerk for what turned into somewhat of a conflict between you and your nephew.
To me, those are 2 very separate issues - his play could be fully bad in poker terms, and you can at the same time be 100% at fault for the personal conflict.
I thought your post was asking the forum to weigh in on the latter. Perhaps I got that wrong.
Yeah in retrospect I think we're 50-50 to blame for the aftermath. I can see how I tweaked his sensitivities immediately after the hand, but I also think he should give me some leeway for being upset about being bet off the winner in a spot he should never be bluffing after I re-staked him and fater he doubled through me once already. I got no such leeway from him... To him I'm the complete asshole for being upset about it.
jim posts one of these drunken threads every 6 months or so
Quote:
then proceeds to dispute all the opinions given. Not very allstar caliber.
jim posts one of these drunken threads every 6 months or so
I'm not drunk. Also some of the opinions clearly weren't expressed with the full fact-pattern in mind.
Plus I acknowledged I respect those that feel differently, but I thought for people who like poker, this was a really interesting hand to discuss. Plus I enjoy the discussion, no hard feelings with anyone who has criticism.
I've been at tables where guys playing crap like 6-2 unsuited will take down a few pots and it puts most people on tilt. People with strange betting habits or calling stations will hit the occasional hand or run a bluff that works. But if you go on tilt, you only make the problem worse for you because now your game will change.
Take the L and realize that the majority of thee time you are in that situation, you'll win. And the majority of the time you fold in the situation above, the winning hand will have you beat.
That’s gambling man.
As a poker player, bluffing a calling station is bad poker.
As my nephew, although he's under no obligation to play me differently than Joe Blow, for me it's unspoken to not even be in that hand with near zero equity after my flop bet, and to be honest, him calling in the small blind with K-5 suited to specifically 4x raise is hot garbage to begin with.
He's playing the whole hamd out of position and he could still be 3-bet, it's bad poker but fine if you want to hwt pit of line every once in a while and show up with an unexpected hand that gets there.
Frustrarion though comes down to two things....
1) him being pissed at me at the table for expressing shock he bluffed there and telling him he bluffed me off the winner.
2) him playing this way without a real hand against family. Maybe I'm wrong for aying him specifically differently. In home games he's come to, I expect to go toe to toe with him. If he had Aces there without a 4-liner, I can see him betting for value and trying to play a big pot, no matter if I'm in the hand or not. But we were talking about the table dynamics for hours prior and I assumed it was more us vs them, not us vs each other unless there were hands we just couldn't get away from.
I would have trouble making that kind of play against my nephew. So yeah, I felt it was a little fucked to make that play against me specifically, especially with noted calling station in the hand. So while he's pissed at me for expressing shock at the bluff, I'm the family he's running a big bluff on in a big pot, something I wouldn't have done to him. It makes me more pissed he got angry with me when I thought nephew was giving me the same consideration I was giving him.
1). The purpose of analyzing a hand is to understand what you could or should do differently, not what other people did wrong.
2). The high hand bonus is worth about $15 (2% x 777). Should that impact your decision on betting? Depending on the stakes and stacks but probably not much. With such a wet board, you have to bet the turn. You almost certainly get her off if you bet decently (although maybe not you said she was a calling station) and your nephew has a hard time floating again, although with diamond draw he might. But if you think she is a calling station you have to bet. Can't leave free money on table.
3). What did you think your nephew had? What range does he have that leads to a bluff here? Now his bets make no sense at any point, but if you played against him you should know that and just call him on the river bet. I have a hard time coming up with the hand he has that makes sense, meaning a stupid bluff is likely. The open limp and call to pressure is dumb with almost any holding. Floating the flop bet and knuckling back the turn implies a spade draw or may QJ or KJ suited.
4). You should not play differently against family. It hints of cheating even if it is not the intent.
5). Calling someone out at the table is always bad form. Probably worse if you are family.
6). You nephew getting upset about it is also bad form.
I play with my kids all the time and I am staking them, so I get the dynamic. I play them the same as everyone else, although I suspect they are out to get me to one up the old man!
If this is normal play at your casino you should be able to print money and never have to worry about tilt. Or don't take the game seriously have fun and let someone else do the work. Oh and don't stake people who open limp k5 suited against a straddle if you want your money back.
I thought my nephew had something like Q-J or Q-10, but could have hands like J-9, 10-9, Q-9, as well as any spade draws, including suited connectors down to 56s.
Every now and then K-Qo or K-Jo, but I expect him, being an aggressive player, to 3-bet those holdings out of position, at least he should.
You're definitely right, I should've bet turn but I knew calling station could raise there, albeit she easily does so with hands I beat. So I didn't want to re-open the pot and have her put me in a tough spot when I'm wanting to see a cheap river. I played the turn badly, though, should be sizing up there because there are a ton of bad cards for me on river.
My nephew is never folding, maybe not even to a jam, with a K high flush draw to the river.
Any non-diamond 9 is bad, any spade is bad, any non-diamond Q is bad, another J is bad, and all the non-diamond 6 is bad. Non-diamond Aces and Kings are navigable, but also increases the number of holdings that beat me.
Basically the only cards that are good for me is 9 of diamonds, 10c, 10h, 8c, 8h, and non-spade 2-5. So yes, should be a bet for protection.
1). The purpose of analyzing a hand is to understand what you could or should do differently, not what other people did wrong.
2). The high hand bonus is worth about $15 (2% x 777). Should that impact your decision on betting? Depending on the stakes and stacks but probably not much. With such a wet board, you have to bet the turn. You almost certainly get her off if you bet decently (although maybe not you said she was a calling station) and your nephew has a hard time floating again, although with diamond draw he might. But if you think she is a calling station you have to bet. Can't leave free money on table.
3). What did you think your nephew had? What range does he have that leads to a bluff here? Now his bets make no sense at any point, but if you played against him you should know that and just call him on the river bet. I have a hard time coming up with the hand he has that makes sense, meaning a stupid bluff is likely. The open limp and call to pressure is dumb with almost any holding. Floating the flop bet and knuckling back the turn implies a spade draw or may QJ or KJ suited.
4). You should not play differently against family. It hints of cheating even if it is not the intent.
5). Calling someone out at the table is always bad form. Probably worse if you are family.
6). You nephew getting upset about it is also bad form.
I play with my kids all the time and I am staking them, so I get the dynamic. I play them the same as everyone else, although I suspect they are out to get me to one up the old man!
If this is normal play at your casino you should be able to print money and never have to worry about tilt. Or don't take the game seriously have fun and let someone else do the work. Oh and don't stake people who open limp k5 suited against a straddle if you want your money back.
And yes she's calling everything at least on turn.
Also, your turn check was awful. Once you turn flush draw, bet there. I like the play by your nephew to steal a big pot on the river with a scary board (albeit awful play preflop and flop/turn beforehand).
Your nephew could’ve handled it a lot better too, but you can only focus on yourself. Also, no disrespect meant here, you’re a good poster.
I probably am not playing poker with him again unless we can find a way to understand each other.
Also, your turn check was awful. Once you turn flush draw, bet there. I like the play by your nephew to steal a big pot on the river with a scary board (albeit awful play preflop and flop/turn beforehand).
Your nephew could’ve handled it a lot better too, but you can only focus on yourself. Also, no disrespect meant here, you’re a good poster.
None taken.
What madness. How can you not bluff in a game predicated on misdirection and misrepresentation?
Having said that, the other dude's reaction is petulant at best. Get over it.
If I didn't care for anyone at the table I likely echo something less sensitive but not even close to abrasive. POker stirs up emotions lol...
I've been at tables where guys playing crap like 6-2 unsuited will take down a few pots and it puts most people on tilt. People with strange betting habits or calling stations will hit the occasional hand or run a bluff that works. But if you go on tilt, you only make the problem worse for you because now your game will change.
Take the L and realize that the majority of thee time you are in that situation, you'll win. And the majority of the time you fold in the situation above, the winning hand will have you beat.
Bingo. If you don't take anything else from this thread take this and run. That and maybe say less to someone so emotional and foolish, at least in regards to pker.
Agreed with this thinking except for the fact that I never expect nephew to bluff their with a calling station behind and me in the hand. Was I wrong about that, yeah. I just wouldn't do that to him. I want him to win and I want to win. He obviously felt differently. But with big river bet and a call, only one of them needs a 9, and both ranges could easily have one, and especially with the family dynamic, I just don't think he's bluffing there. I think it's a call against other players, particularly heads-up, but not with both players, especially him. I ran several bluffs with success and showed, so no concern about table image being too nitty.
Also she had two pair and scooped.