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NGT: Browns sign Nick Chubb long term

Sean : 7/31/2021 7:11 pm
Will be interesting what the numbers are and how Saquon’s eventual deal will compare.
I just saw 3 years 36 million  
eric2425ny : 7/31/2021 7:12 pm : link
30 guaranteed
If the Giants pay Barkley a dime more than that they are  
eric2425ny : 7/31/2021 7:13 pm : link
idiots
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/31/2021 7:13 pm : link
Curious to hear the #s.
Sorry, 3 years 36.6 million  
eric2425ny : 7/31/2021 7:14 pm : link
30 guaranteed. Just came through Yahoo FF app.
Rappaport is saying only 20 million guaranteed  
eric2425ny : 7/31/2021 7:16 pm : link
.
.  
eric2425ny : 7/31/2021 7:16 pm : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/31/2021 7:18 pm : link
30 million guaranteed to a RB seems loco to me.

If I'm the Giants, I'm not going overboard with Saquon unless he looks like his rookie self this fall.
If Rappaport is right it’s 20 million  
eric2425ny : 7/31/2021 7:20 pm : link
If true that’s great news for us.
Personally, I wouldn't resign Barkely until after his contract is up.  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/31/2021 7:21 pm : link
I want to see him stay pretty healthy the next two years. Only way I resign him after this year is if he has an all NFL type season and stays completely healthy.

Sounds like the 3-year extension for 1st round RBs is becoming the norm. Makes sense, play is generally guranteed to start falling off at that age depending on carry count.
RB contracts continue to be bargains  
UConn4523 : 7/31/2021 7:23 pm : link
but you’d never know it visiting this board.
$20M guaranteed is a nice deal...  
bw in dc : 7/31/2021 7:38 pm : link
for the Browns. And Chubb has not been overused to date. So he should still be in the meat of his production arc.

RE: RB contracts continue to be bargains  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 7/31/2021 7:44 pm : link
In comment 15318544 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but you’d never know it visiting this board.


Not sure if directed @ me, but I will admit I'm not laser focused on what RBs around the league are making. And also, all these contracts seem absurd from 30,000 feet, Haha.
RE: $20M guaranteed is a nice deal...  
eric2425ny : 7/31/2021 7:54 pm : link
In comment 15318550 bw in dc said:
Quote:
for the Browns. And Chubb has not been overused to date. So he should still be in the meat of his production arc.


Agreed, this is a bargain. Barkley and his agent have to be pissed right now.
I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to sign Saquon for a bargain NOW..  
Sean : 7/31/2021 7:54 pm : link
I’d be shocked if Saquon wasn’t resigned though, shocked. For all the people saying RB’s are overvalued, teams don’t appear to be operating that way. Aside from the Steelers and Bell, I can’t think of any teams not paying their RB’s.
RE: RE: RB contracts continue to be bargains  
bw in dc : 7/31/2021 7:56 pm : link
In comment 15318556 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:


Not sure if directed @ me, but I will admit I'm not laser focused on what RBs around the league are making. And also, all these contracts seem absurd from 30,000 feet, Haha.


Browns did it mostly right. Drafted a good RB in the second round. And then paid him a cap friendly deal based on three years of solid production.

RE: RE: RB contracts continue to be bargains  
UConn4523 : 7/31/2021 8:08 pm : link
In comment 15318556 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 15318544 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


but you’d never know it visiting this board.



Not sure if directed @ me, but I will admit I'm not laser focused on what RBs around the league are making. And also, all these contracts seem absurd from 30,000 feet, Haha.


It’s directed at anyone that vilifies RB contracts like they make QB money. $30m guaranteed isn’t a big deal, if he plays 3 more too end seasons it’s a bargain. If he blows his knee out the contract is low enough where it shouldn’t ruin them.

The issues are WR contracts, QB contracts to middling performers, and DEs contracts to players who aren’t consistent.
.  
Go Terps : 7/31/2021 8:20 pm : link
The reason it doesn't make sense to pay them is that they are usually easily replaced with a mid round draft pick.

Chubb is a better back than Barkley and healthier, and the contract isn't insane, but Cleveland didn't need to do it.
Only a few years ago, running back contracts were becoming  
chick310 : 7/31/2021 8:21 pm : link
poorly thought out overpays for the “elite”. It’s great to have an impact player at RB but that emotion needs to be properly tempered with the injury factor, supply of existing pros and from the college ranks, and how the passing game is becoming so dominating for efficient offenses.

Nice job by Cleveland to not only select an impact RB in round 2, but also to pay him a reasonable second contract several years later.
RE: ...  
Ivan15 : 7/31/2021 8:25 pm : link
In comment 15318539 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
30 million guaranteed to a RB seems loco to me.

If I'm the Giants, I'm not going overboard with Saquon unless he looks like his rookie self this fall.


How much of Barkley’s original contract was guaranteed? Has he earned it?
RE: I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to sign Saquon for a bargain NOW..  
bw in dc : 7/31/2021 8:27 pm : link
In comment 15318562 Sean said:
Quote:
I’d be shocked if Saquon wasn’t resigned though, shocked. For all the people saying RB’s are overvalued, teams don’t appear to be operating that way. Aside from the Steelers and Bell, I can’t think of any teams not paying their RB’s.


Pats, with Brady, didn't pay their RBs big numbers. The Chiefs aren't paying their RBs big numbers. Bucs aren't paying their RBs big numbers. Seattle isn't paying Carson a huge contract.
RE: .  
bw in dc : 7/31/2021 8:30 pm : link
In comment 15318574 Go Terps said:
Quote:

Chubb is a better back than Barkley and healthier, and the contract isn't insane, but Cleveland didn't need to do it.


True. Kareem Hunt could have spelled Chubb quite nicely.
RE: RE: .  
eric2425ny : 7/31/2021 8:35 pm : link
In comment 15318581 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15318574 Go Terps said:


Quote:



Chubb is a better back than Barkley and healthier, and the contract isn't insane, but Cleveland didn't need to do it.



True. Kareem Hunt could have spelled Chubb quite nicely.


The Kareem Hunt thing is a joke. He’s there because he fucked up and kicked a woman and they took a chance on him. Sans incident, he’s a top 5 back on any team.
They signed Chubb because they know that offense runs through  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/31/2021 8:38 pm : link
their 1-2 punch and offensive line. They compliment each other very well. Chubb has awful hands, looks like a 90s RB back there. And definitely why he didn't garner a CMC-level contract.
Instead of paying Chubb,  
Go Terps : 7/31/2021 8:38 pm : link
I think the move is to either trade him or let him play out his rookie deal, sign a big deal elsewhere, and help your comp pick formula.

The hard truth is this:

2018 average yards gained by a play to Barkley: 5.3
2020 average yards gained by a play to Gallman: 4.7

League average both years was 5.6.

Running the ball effectively is about blocking and scheme much more than it is the runner. With Stefanski and that offensive line Cleveland would be able to run the ball effectively with most backs.
Barkley  
Toth029 : 7/31/2021 8:42 pm : link
Breaks at least ten runs that Gallman failed to do last year.

Yes, line matters more. But so does RB talent.
RE: RE: RE: .  
bw in dc : 7/31/2021 8:42 pm : link
In comment 15318585 eric2425ny said:
Quote:


The Kareem Hunt thing is a joke. He’s there because he fucked up and kicked a woman and they took a chance on him. Sans incident, he’s a top 5 back on any team.


I agree. He did a despicable act. But by stomaching it, the Browns get a damn good player on the cheap.
RE: RE: I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to sign Saquon for a bargain NOW..  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/31/2021 8:45 pm : link
In comment 15318577 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15318562 Sean said:


Quote:


I’d be shocked if Saquon wasn’t resigned though, shocked. For all the people saying RB’s are overvalued, teams don’t appear to be operating that way. Aside from the Steelers and Bell, I can’t think of any teams not paying their RB’s.



Pats, with Brady, didn't pay their RBs big numbers. The Chiefs aren't paying their RBs big numbers. Bucs aren't paying their RBs big numbers. Seattle isn't paying Carson a huge contract.


Thats because RoJo isn't up for a contract yet. Word around here is they want to see another year of production, but he's a guy that has progressed a ton since he got in league.
RE: Barkley  
Go Terps : 7/31/2021 8:46 pm : link
In comment 15318590 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Breaks at least ten runs that Gallman failed to do last year.

Yes, line matters more. But so does RB talent.


No he doesn't, because he's on the sidelines with a knee injury.

And I just showed you the difference between the best Barkley we've seen and a journeyman Gallman. The numbers are what they are regardless of talent.
RE: Barkley  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/31/2021 8:46 pm : link
In comment 15318590 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Breaks at least ten runs that Gallman failed to do last year.

Yes, line matters more. But so does RB talent.


Last year was a great example of why RB talents matters. Our RBs were terrible and they left plays all over the field. It was maddening. Like yeah its nice that the OL generated 5 yards on that carry, but break one tackle and its 20 plus.
Cleveland not needing to do it  
UConn4523 : 7/31/2021 8:47 pm : link
is pure speculation. They did do it, as many teams do and that’s because replacing RBs isn’t as easy as everyone makes it seem. In fact, it took Hunt being a piece of garbage to even have a serviceable backup and even with him 1 misstep and he’s likely suspended for half a season or more making the position pretty vulnerable.

If you take Chubb out and replace him with a mid round pick you likely take a giant step back on offense. The entire offense runs through him, that isn’t something you can just replicate on a whim.
RE: They signed Chubb because they know that offense runs through  
bw in dc : 7/31/2021 8:49 pm : link
In comment 15318587 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
their 1-2 punch and offensive line. They compliment each other very well. Chubb has awful hands, looks like a 90s RB back there. And definitely why he didn't garner a CMC-level contract.


Chubb is a great combination runner - can hammer between the tackles and can turn the edge very effectively. And he's turned into a pretty good blocker.

Carolina gave CMC an absurd contract. So Chubb not getting comped on that level is a very good thing.
This is also pure speculation  
Go Terps : 7/31/2021 8:49 pm : link
"If you take Chubb out and replace him with a mid round pick you likely take a giant step back on offense."
And Cleveland's offense doesn't run through Chubb  
Go Terps : 7/31/2021 8:52 pm : link
It runs through Stefanski's understanding of OL play and general play calling. He's an expert at making his quarterback's life easier.
RE: This is also pure speculation  
UConn4523 : 7/31/2021 9:00 pm : link
In comment 15318601 Go Terps said:
Quote:
"If you take Chubb out and replace him with a mid round pick you likely take a giant step back on offense."


I’m fine with you calling it that, something I can admit. You on the other hand? No shot.
RE: And Cleveland's offense doesn't run through Chubb  
gidiefor : Mod : 7/31/2021 9:00 pm : link
In comment 15318603 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It runs through Stefanski's understanding of OL play and general play calling. He's an expert at making his quarterback's life easier.


obviously Stefanski doesn't agree with you
RE: And Cleveland's offense doesn't run through Chubb  
Zeke's Alibi : 7/31/2021 9:01 pm : link
In comment 15318603 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It runs through Stefanski's understanding of OL play and general play calling. He's an expert at making his quarterback's life easier.


And yet he foudn it necessary to resign Chubb. Stefanski's job is about as safe as can be, getting a Browns a playoff win against the Steelers, and he wanted him back. Clearly he values RB talent.
Stefanski is so smart RBs don’t matter  
UConn4523 : 7/31/2021 9:05 pm : link
but he paid the RB anyway for the fuck of it? Haha, amazing.
RE: RE: Barkley  
Toth029 : 7/31/2021 9:07 pm : link
In comment 15318595 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15318590 Toth029 said:


Quote:


Breaks at least ten runs that Gallman failed to do last year.

Yes, line matters more. But so does RB talent.



No he doesn't, because he's on the sidelines with a knee injury.

And I just showed you the difference between the best Barkley we've seen and a journeyman Gallman. The numbers are what they are regardless of talent.

Needs context, no? This via PFR

2020 Gallman total touches: 168
2020 Gallman total broken tackles: 10
2020 Gallman YAC: 362 on the ground, 100 as a receiver

2018 Barkley total touches: 352
2018 Barkley total broken tackles: 43
2018 Barkley YAC: 736 on the ground, 768 receiving
RE: RE: $20M guaranteed is a nice deal...  
Big Blue '56 : 7/31/2021 9:11 pm : link
In comment 15318561 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 15318550 bw in dc said:


Quote:


for the Browns. And Chubb has not been overused to date. So he should still be in the meat of his production arc.




Agreed, this is a bargain. Barkley and his agent have to be pissed right now.


I doubt SB is pissed about anything. He’d like to be his old self first.
RE: RE: RE: $20M guaranteed is a nice deal...  
eric2425ny : 7/31/2021 9:18 pm : link
In comment 15318618 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15318561 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


In comment 15318550 bw in dc said:


Quote:


for the Browns. And Chubb has not been overused to date. So he should still be in the meat of his production arc.




Agreed, this is a bargain. Barkley and his agent have to be pissed right now.



I doubt SB is pissed about anything. He’d like to be his old self first.


I’m sure that’s the case. And when healthy I’ll take him over Chubb any day. But the reality is Chubb has stayed healthy and produced and Barkley has missed a lot of time. My comment about being pissed was related to his contract numbers almost assuredly dropping now. I wouldn’t pay him more than what Chubb just got unless he puts up some otherworldly season in 2021 and I’m sure he wanted more than what Chubb just took.
RE: Stefanski is so smart RBs don’t matter  
bw in dc : 7/31/2021 9:19 pm : link
In comment 15318614 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but he paid the RB anyway for the fuck of it? Haha, amazing.


Berry paid Chubb a very reasonable deal. He didn't pay him ridiculous money like the deals McCaffrey and Zeke received.

So let's not act like a Brinks Truck was spotted in Cleveland backing up...
RE: RE: Stefanski is so smart RBs don’t matter  
UConn4523 : 7/31/2021 9:20 pm : link
In comment 15318625 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15318614 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


but he paid the RB anyway for the fuck of it? Haha, amazing.



Berry paid Chubb a very reasonable deal. He didn't pay him ridiculous money like the deals McCaffrey and Zeke received.

So let's not act like a Brinks Truck was spotted in Cleveland backing up...


I know that, see my first two posts.
RE: RE: Stefanski is so smart RBs don’t matter  
Go Terps : 7/31/2021 9:42 pm : link
In comment 15318625 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15318614 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


but he paid the RB anyway for the fuck of it? Haha, amazing.



Berry paid Chubb a very reasonable deal. He didn't pay him ridiculous money like the deals McCaffrey and Zeke received.

So let's not act like a Brinks Truck was spotted in Cleveland backing up...


That is the important point, right? It's not a crazy contract.

So if the Giants want to use Chubb, who is better and healthier than Barkley, as a starting point and work backwards to say $9M or so per year for Barkley...you could probably live with that.

No way in hell Barkley does, though.
RE: Stefanski is so smart RBs don’t matter  
Jimmy Googs : 7/31/2021 10:43 pm : link
In comment 15318614 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but he paid the RB anyway for the fuck of it? Haha, amazing.


What’s amazing is you can’t write a post without spouting a preconceived agenda.

RBs absolutely matter but need to be kept in perspective of how positional value and the game is progressing. Chubb got paid a lot but nothing ridiculous. Good deal for him and Cleveland.
RE: RE: Stefanski is so smart RBs don’t matter  
eric2425ny : 7/31/2021 11:42 pm : link
In comment 15318669 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15318614 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


but he paid the RB anyway for the fuck of it? Haha, amazing.



What’s amazing is you can’t write a post without spouting a preconceived agenda.

RBs absolutely matter but need to be kept in perspective of how positional value and the game is progressing. Chubb got paid a lot but nothing ridiculous. Good deal for him and Cleveland.


Totally agree. This is a great deal for Chubb and the team
Has sunshine crossed over into parody of himself?  
Mad Mike : 8/1/2021 1:12 am : link
That is something special to behold.
He is a good back  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/1/2021 6:39 am : link
and has been durable to date. Cleveland rushed for about 150 ypg averaging 31 carries per game.

What happened? 11 wins, playoffs and Mayfield all of a sudden is being talked about as a franchise QB.

What we should learn? If your team is a top running team good things happen and Cleveland/Stefanski recognizes this.

RE: I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to sign Saquon for a bargain NOW..  
joeinpa : 8/1/2021 8:14 am : link
In comment 15318562 Sean said:
Quote:
I’d be shocked if Saquon wasn’t resigned though, shocked. For all the people saying RB’s are overvalued, teams don’t appear to be operating that way. Aside from the Steelers and Bell, I can’t think of any teams not paying their RB’s.


I m not certain people believe RB s are overvalued as to their contributions to an offense. Rather I think the opinion is you can get a good one without spending a real high draft pick on the position; at least that s the argument with Saquon.

Truthfully I kind of agree with that premise Sean, mostly because of the injury factor and shorter career of that position. The injury factor has certainly been true up to now with Barkley.
RE: Instead of paying Chubb,  
BillT : 8/1/2021 8:23 am : link
In comment 15318588 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I think the move is to either trade him or let him play out his rookie deal, sign a big deal elsewhere, and help your comp pick formula.

The hard truth is this:

2018 average yards gained by a play to Barkley: 5.3
2020 average yards gained by a play to Gallman: 4.7

League average both years was 5.6.

Running the ball effectively is about blocking and scheme much more than it is the runner. With Stefanski and that offensive line Cleveland would be able to run the ball effectively with most backs.

Let’s all make Terps feel good and think he’s making a valid point by pretending to ignore the fact that we all know Barkley’s stats were compiled running behind a line that allowed him a league worst initial contact number. Statistics lie and…..
When healthy Barkley can do things Chubb can't dream of  
English Alaister : 8/1/2021 8:26 am : link
The issue is two-fold.

1. Barkley is a freak athlete and that can go two ways. Especially in football. So far he's missed too many games but that could be bad luck. It could also be a career issue that prevents him ever realising his potential.

2. He has played through terrible O-Lines. It would have been great to see him the second half of the season and see what he could have done. Week one the flash would have been screwed behind that OL.

3. Third is more a style issue. He needs to cut out the negative plays without impacting what makes him great.

I believe he has the talent to be a dominant player in the league. If you put him on the Saints and he plays 17 games I'm certain he is a 2500 yard monster.

It is really easy to sit here and play the RBs don't matter card (Belichik disagrees btw) and Barkley is a poor pick. Right now I'd agree I'd take Nelson in a re-draft. However, the book isn't yet written and we have an incredible talent who may yet be very worth a huge contract. Will be fun to see how it plays out.

I will say this last part purely as a fan. I'm rooting hard for the kid... his rookie season brought me so much fun and made watching that team really enjoyable despite the W-L. I would love to see him get back to his best.
three-fold  
English Alaister : 8/1/2021 8:28 am : link
Not two...I expanded as I went!
RE: RE: Instead of paying Chubb,  
UConn4523 : 8/1/2021 8:38 am : link
In comment 15318725 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 15318588 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I think the move is to either trade him or let him play out his rookie deal, sign a big deal elsewhere, and help your comp pick formula.

The hard truth is this:

2018 average yards gained by a play to Barkley: 5.3
2020 average yards gained by a play to Gallman: 4.7

League average both years was 5.6.

Running the ball effectively is about blocking and scheme much more than it is the runner. With Stefanski and that offensive line Cleveland would be able to run the ball effectively with most backs.


Let’s all make Terps feel good and think he’s making a valid point by pretending to ignore the fact that we all know Barkley’s stats were compiled running behind a line that allowed him a league worst initial contact number. Statistics lie and…..


It’s shocking in a way. Gallmans 2018, albeit small sample size, running behind the same line was embarrassing. 3.5 YPC and even if he got double the carries I suspect it would be well under 4 YPC, no reason to think otherwise since he can’t break tackles or create big runs. So a full 1.5 yards per carry less.

So was Gallman running 1.5 yards less per carry because it was about blocking but not for Barkley? Or are they really completely different players and the individual does actually matter most of the time?
RE: I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to sign Saquon for a bargain NOW..  
FStubbs : 8/1/2021 8:57 am : link
In comment 15318562 Sean said:
Quote:
I’d be shocked if Saquon wasn’t resigned though, shocked. For all the people saying RB’s are overvalued, teams don’t appear to be operating that way. Aside from the Steelers and Bell, I can’t think of any teams not paying their RB’s.


How many of those teams resigning RBs to huge contracts win Superbowls?
RE: RE: I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to sign Saquon for a bargain NOW..  
FStubbs : 8/1/2021 9:01 am : link
In comment 15318724 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 15318562 Sean said:


Quote:


I’d be shocked if Saquon wasn’t resigned though, shocked. For all the people saying RB’s are overvalued, teams don’t appear to be operating that way. Aside from the Steelers and Bell, I can’t think of any teams not paying their RB’s.



I m not certain people believe RB s are overvalued as to their contributions to an offense. Rather I think the opinion is you can get a good one without spending a real high draft pick on the position; at least that s the argument with Saquon.

Truthfully I kind of agree with that premise Sean, mostly because of the injury factor and shorter career of that position. The injury factor has certainly been true up to now with Barkley.


I almost agree. I think it's more that a huge part of a RBs success is determined on their OL, and because of that, a great, talented RB is going to have similar impact to a decent one. And that's not factoring in the fact that the decent one will cost a lot less.

But you are right in the part where injuries are also a concern at the position, and Barkley in particular has missed more games than he's played - he's already got a ton of wear and tear.
RE: RE: I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to sign Saquon for a bargain NOW..  
UConn4523 : 8/1/2021 9:08 am : link
In comment 15318739 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 15318562 Sean said:


Quote:


I’d be shocked if Saquon wasn’t resigned though, shocked. For all the people saying RB’s are overvalued, teams don’t appear to be operating that way. Aside from the Steelers and Bell, I can’t think of any teams not paying their RB’s.



How many of those teams resigning RBs to huge contracts win Superbowls?


How many teams in general win super bowls?

The answer is overwhelmingly the teams with the star QB. Is resigning Aaron Jones the reason why the Packers didn’t make the Super Bowl this season? No, it wasn’t. Is resigning Alvin Kamara the reason why the Saints couldn’t get back? No, an aging Brees was.

RB contracts are becoming a value now, they don’t prohibit you from improving your team like much bigger contracts do from other positions that I’d argue have an equally high bust rate.
And I wonder what Packer fans think  
UConn4523 : 8/1/2021 9:20 am : link
the difference between Jones and Williams is.
RE: Instead of paying Chubb,  
PatersonPlank : 8/1/2021 9:50 am : link
In comment 15318588 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I think the move is to either trade him or let him play out his rookie deal, sign a big deal elsewhere, and help your comp pick formula.

The hard truth is this:

2018 average yards gained by a play to Barkley: 5.3
2020 average yards gained by a play to Gallman: 4.7

League average both years was 5.6.

Running the ball effectively is about blocking and scheme much more than it is the runner. With Stefanski and that offensive line Cleveland would be able to run the ball effectively with most backs.


This is apples to oranges, The OL was a shambles in 2018, 2020 the run blocking was good. A better comparison would be Gallman in 2018 vs Barkley in 2018, which would show a big difference (but you know that already).
It  
Toth029 : 8/1/2021 10:05 am : link
Was silly to begin with to compare those two.

Gallman can't break tackles the way Barkley does, and he sure as hell can't get the YAC be it as a contact runner or out of the backfield/on routes either. He's ordinary as can be.
RE: RE: I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to sign Saquon for a bargain NOW..  
bw in dc : 8/1/2021 11:38 am : link
In comment 15318724 joeinpa said:
Quote:

I m not certain people believe RB s are overvalued as to their contributions to an offense. Rather I think the opinion is you can get a good one without spending a real high draft pick on the position; at least that s the argument with Saquon.



That's essentially where I am with RBs. It's one of the more - if not the most - fungible positions in the NFL. It's a position with the the shortest shelf life and constant durability concerns.

My other amendment is that I think you can get a good one without a high pick OR spending a lot of cap space.

Give me more money to spend on OLs, corners, and DLs over a RB all of the time.

Look, as someone who grew up admiring the concept of "smash mouth" football, I wish the running game was more vital to winning games. But it isn't; so you have to adapt or die.
You would hope this Chubb contract should help with  
Jimmy Googs : 8/1/2021 11:52 am : link
Barkley negotiations though, right?

Somebody help convince me this will be helpful for the cause...
RE: RE: RE: I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to sign Saquon for a bargain NOW..  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/1/2021 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15318841 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15318724 joeinpa said:


Quote:



I m not certain people believe RB s are overvalued as to their contributions to an offense. Rather I think the opinion is you can get a good one without spending a real high draft pick on the position; at least that s the argument with Saquon.





That's essentially where I am with RBs. It's one of the more - if not the most - fungible positions in the NFL. It's a position with the the shortest shelf life and constant durability concerns.

My other amendment is that I think you can get a good one without a high pick OR spending a lot of cap space.

Give me more money to spend on OLs, corners, and DLs over a RB all of the time.

Look, as someone who grew up admiring the concept of "smash mouth" football, I wish the running game was more vital to winning games. But it isn't; so you have to adapt or die.


Poor take regarding the running game and its importance. It is still vital for the vast majority of teams. Look at the teams in the playoffs. It significantly helps younger Qb's. TB was I think the worst rushing team in the playoffs last year but they really stepped it up come playoff time.

I understand the SB pick at that time (I believe a mandate existed). If he returns to form you possible give him a contract like Chubb. If he balks or creates a problem with a hold out you trade him imo.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I wouldn’t be opposed to trying to sign Saquon for a bargain NOW..  
bw in dc : 8/1/2021 4:55 pm : link
In comment 15318862 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:

Poor take regarding the running game and its importance. It is still vital for the vast majority of teams. Look at the teams in the playoffs. It significantly helps younger Qb's. TB was I think the worst rushing team in the playoffs last year but they really stepped it up come playoff time.

I understand the SB pick at that time (I believe a mandate existed). If he returns to form you possible give him a contract like Chubb. If he balks or creates a problem with a hold out you trade him imo.


I did look at the teams in the playoffs and their run rankings were all over the place. The Bucs were like 26th in rushing. The Bills were like 20th. The Steelers were dead last. The Chiefs were like 16th or 17th.

The Browns/Ravens/Titans were top three. But the Ravens are an oddity because of LJax's unique style.

My point being having a top running game doesn't improve the chances of success. It may help, but it is no longer a top variable...
bw in dc  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/1/2021 5:21 pm : link
Again, your argument is not supported by the facts.

Football is about balance for the vast majority of teams. You can pick out a few outliers but the point remains.

Playoff football will expose a weakness and you will be sent home except for some outliers.

I already said TB was not a good regular season run team. They were a very good running team in the playoffs.

Buffalo will continue to get sent home early till they correct the deficiency. It will be harder for them now in the AFC East as well.

Mayfield finally is deemed a quality NFL QB. Look at that teams rush stats. I actually still think he is a flawed QB.

The game still has a very physical element to it despite the rule changes and running the football helps establish that presence.

Look at all the stats, analytics you want but you can't overcome this simple concept.




All the analytics nerds were crucifying Leftwich because he  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/1/2021 6:12 pm : link
was trying to get his run game going in the last quarter of the season. See how well they got that one right?
In the playoffs...  
bw in dc : 8/1/2021 6:39 pm : link
The Tamps D held Green Bay to 26 points at Green Bay. Green Bay averaged 32 ppg all year and 34 ppg at home.

They held New Orleans to 20 points in New Orleans. New Orleans averaged 30 ppg all year and 32 ppg at home (and that's with Brees missing close to a month).

And in the SB, they held the Chiefs to 9ppg. The Chiefs averaged 30 ppg all year.

So I would argue the defense was more vital in the Bucs finding their way to a SB win than any shift in philosophy to run the ball.

Look, I think it's important to run the ball. But that doesn't win games. Scoring points wins games and the best path to score points is to pass.
RE: In the playoffs...  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/1/2021 6:48 pm : link
In comment 15319120 bw in dc said:
Quote:
The Tamps D held Green Bay to 26 points at Green Bay. Green Bay averaged 32 ppg all year and 34 ppg at home.

They held New Orleans to 20 points in New Orleans. New Orleans averaged 30 ppg all year and 32 ppg at home (and that's with Brees missing close to a month).

And in the SB, they held the Chiefs to 9ppg. The Chiefs averaged 30 ppg all year.

So I would argue the defense was more vital in the Bucs finding their way to a SB win than any shift in philosophy to run the ball.

Look, I think it's important to run the ball. But that doesn't win games. Scoring points wins games and the best path to score points is to pass.


When you are playing good D, running the ball goes hand to hand in helping you win games and hold leads due to lower variance. Football is a team sport, you can get lucky and get good stylistic matchups all the way to a SB win, but generally, teams that win are solid in everything. The Bucs certainly fit that bill.
The best way to score points (Passing)  
UConn4523 : 8/1/2021 7:25 pm : link
is still predicated very much on the run game for the vast majority of teams in the league. And each position has its own average salary and range of guaranteed money - its pretty low for RBs due to longevity, not importance, IMO. There’s a reason these guys extended, because without them they typically don’t produce the same offense, we see it all the time. RBBC sounds great but it often misses as well.

But this is starting to feel disingenuous like all the other running back threads so I’m not sure what the point is in even arguing.
Because you can’t help yourself.  
Jimmy Googs : 8/1/2021 7:37 pm : link
As we know...
RE: The best way to score points (Passing)  
bw in dc : 8/1/2021 8:00 pm : link
In comment 15319144 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
is still predicated very much on the run game for the vast majority of teams in the league. And each position has its own average salary and range of guaranteed money - its pretty low for RBs due to longevity, not importance, IMO. There’s a reason these guys extended, because without them they typically don’t produce the same offense, we see it all the time. RBBC sounds great but it often misses as well.

But this is starting to feel disingenuous like all the other running back threads so I’m not sure what the point is in even arguing.


What is disingenuous?

My argument is you don't need balance between a passing game and running game to win. If you can somehow get it, great. But the better path to winning is having a upper level passing game.

The real "balance" argument is having a high scoring offense and a defense that bends but doesn't break and is in the upper half of the league in PPG allowed.
You seem to completely dismiss the notion that a top passing offense  
UConn4523 : 8/1/2021 8:09 pm : link
in part exists due to the run game. Investing in the run is investing in the passing game. And it’s cheaper - Chubb makes less guaranteed money than Corey Davis, chew on that for a second. Paying Beckham and Landry are huge wastes of money, so if they don’t improve on their 2021 season look that direction because it isn’t due to what they pay Chubb.
RE: You seem to completely dismiss the notion that a top passing offense  
Zeke's Alibi : 8/1/2021 8:13 pm : link
In comment 15319182 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
in part exists due to the run game. Investing in the run is investing in the passing game. And it’s cheaper - Chubb makes less guaranteed money than Corey Davis, chew on that for a second. Paying Beckham and Landry are huge wastes of money, so if they don’t improve on their 2021 season look that direction because it isn’t due to what they pay Chubb.


Right, both the Browns and Titans do it this way. Shit Corey Davis got paid because of this. Let's see what he does for the Jets this year, imo he ins't much different than the player he was when he came into the league. Just better pieces around him helped him put up some stats.
 
christian : 8/1/2021 9:47 pm : link
If this about the value of the run game, it’s worth noting the Giants productivity over the last 3 years.

YDS/YPC/TDs/1Ds
1650/4.7/13/71
1685/4.7/11/89
1768/4.4/13/91

I think Barkley is a really good running back, and I hope he’s lights out the next 2-3 years. But at this point, I’d prefer they pay him year to year.
RE: In the playoffs...  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/1/2021 10:09 pm : link
In comment 15319120 bw in dc said:
Quote:
The Tamps D held Green Bay to 26 points at Green Bay. Green Bay averaged 32 ppg all year and 34 ppg at home.

They held New Orleans to 20 points in New Orleans. New Orleans averaged 30 ppg all year and 32 ppg at home (and that's with Brees missing close to a month).

And in the SB, they held the Chiefs to 9ppg. The Chiefs averaged 30 ppg all year.

So I would argue the defense was more vital in the Bucs finding their way to a SB win than any shift in philosophy to run the ball.

Look, I think it's important to run the ball. But that doesn't win games. Scoring points wins games and the best path to score points is to pass.


Tampa Bay had a good defense last year, no question about it and I have always maintained that defense wins championships. The Giants started looking good as their defense gelled -- so I have no dispute with the value of a good defense

It's ironic that NY played Tampa so well too


RE: You seem to completely dismiss the notion that a top passing offense  
bw in dc : 8/1/2021 10:13 pm : link
In comment 15319182 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
in part exists due to the run game. Investing in the run is investing in the passing game. And it’s cheaper - Chubb makes less guaranteed money than Corey Davis, chew on that for a second. Paying Beckham and Landry are huge wastes of money, so if they don’t improve on their 2021 season look that direction because it isn’t due to what they pay Chubb.


To me, investing in the "run" is when you invest in the OL and QB, not paying more/too much money to a RB. A good OL can impact both the passing game and the running game. And good QB speaks for itself.

Currently, we have a highly drafted, highly skilled RB. When the RB is healthy he does cool things like jump over defenders and breaks off huge runs once in a while. But despite all of that flair and fun, our record is always single digit wins and double digit losses with SB as our RB. Why? Because we have huge question marks at QB and the OL.

I like Chubb and think the player and the team got a fair deal with this new contract. But do you know why Cleveland is winning now? A good OL, a maturing/improving QB, a quality D, and what appears to a very good hire in Stefanski.
RE: RE: The best way to score points (Passing)  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/2/2021 3:47 am : link
In comment 15319176 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15319144 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


is still predicated very much on the run game for the vast majority of teams in the league. And each position has its own average salary and range of guaranteed money - its pretty low for RBs due to longevity, not importance, IMO. There’s a reason these guys extended, because without them they typically don’t produce the same offense, we see it all the time. RBBC sounds great but it often misses as well.

But this is starting to feel disingenuous like all the other running back threads so I’m not sure what the point is in even arguing.



What is disingenuous?

My argument is you don't need balance between a passing game and running game to win. If you can somehow get it, great. But the better path to winning is having a upper level passing game.

The real "balance" argument is having a high scoring offense and a defense that bends but doesn't break and is in the upper half of the league in PPG allowed.


bw -- the flaw in this above argument what pointed out by your own comments above.

Green Bay has what may be the best passing game in football -- knocked out of the playoffs with that best passing game for ten years running now

N Orleans Saints with Drew Brees also right up there has failed to make it through the playoff multifaceted for 10 years running now

KC lost it's Super bowl bid 2 out of 3 years running with a high flying passing game

Tampa won it last year because it's defense came together and gelled and because they had a better than average passing game with an all time great QB. Even so they mixed in a running game.

I would argue that if Green bay had a running game -- the out come of their playoffs game might have been different -- Green Bay hasn't had even a decent running back in some time

The Patriots over the past 20 something years also have played a balanced attack that counted on a running game, passing game, defense and special teams

In my opinion you do need to have a championship defense to have the best shot at winning the prize; you also need an above average QB, or at least a QB that plays above average; and I also maintain that a QB in that above average realm, needs a running game to support his efforts along with a decent line.

Do you need a super running back to win? Probably not -- but that does not mean you can't win with a super running back and super running attack. Just because you don't have examples to cite does not mean it is not the case. Having a multi-pronged weapon like Barkley is still an asset you can use to win. The only argument about running backs that I would buy is that a dominant running game on it's own -- is not enough to win. However, it is equally true that a dominant passing game on it's own -- is not enough to win.

You need to be multifacited to win, and I can't think of a SuperBowl team that won without having a damned good Defense. I can, on the other hand, think of Superbowl teams that won it without having an upper level passing game.







RE: RE: RE: The best way to score points (Passing)  
Big Blue '56 : 8/2/2021 6:45 am : link
In comment 15319341 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 15319176 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15319144 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


is still predicated very much on the run game for the vast majority of teams in the league. And each position has its own average salary and range of guaranteed money - its pretty low for RBs due to longevity, not importance, IMO. There’s a reason these guys extended, because without them they typically don’t produce the same offense, we see it all the time. RBBC sounds great but it often misses as well.

But this is starting to feel disingenuous like all the other running back threads so I’m not sure what the point is in even arguing.



What is disingenuous?

My argument is you don't need balance between a passing game and running game to win. If you can somehow get it, great. But the better path to winning is having a upper level passing game.

The real "balance" argument is having a high scoring offense and a defense that bends but doesn't break and is in the upper half of the league in PPG allowed.



bw -- the flaw in this above argument what pointed out by your own comments above.

Green Bay has what may be the best passing game in football -- knocked out of the playoffs with that best passing game for ten years running now

N Orleans Saints with Drew Brees also right up there has failed to make it through the playoff multifaceted for 10 years running now

KC lost it's Super bowl bid 2 out of 3 years running with a high flying passing game

Tampa won it last year because it's defense came together and gelled and because they had a better than average passing game with an all time great QB. Even so they mixed in a running game.

I would argue that if Green bay had a running game -- the out come of their playoffs game might have been different -- Green Bay hasn't had even a decent running back in some time

The Patriots over the past 20 something years also have played a balanced attack that counted on a running game, passing game, defense and special teams

In my opinion you do need to have a championship defense to have the best shot at winning the prize; you also need an above average QB, or at least a QB that plays above average; and I also maintain that a QB in that above average realm, needs a running game to support his efforts along with a decent line.

Do you need a super running back to win? Probably not -- but that does not mean you can't win with a super running back and super running attack. Just because you don't have examples to cite does not mean it is not the case. Having a multi-pronged weapon like Barkley is still an asset you can use to win. The only argument about running backs that I would buy is that a dominant running game on it's own -- is not enough to win. However, it is equally true that a dominant passing game on it's own -- is not enough to win.

You need to be multifacited to win, and I can't think of a SuperBowl team that won without having a damned good Defense. I can, on the other hand, think of Superbowl teams that won it without having an upper level passing game.








You’re a very sick man, but an excellent poster. Well done, your Honor.
RE: RE: RE: The best way to score points (Passing)  
section125 : 8/2/2021 7:07 am : link
In comment 15319341 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 15319176 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15319144 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


is still predicated very much on the run game for the vast majority of teams in the league. And each position has its own average salary and range of guaranteed money - its pretty low for RBs due to longevity, not importance, IMO. There’s a reason these guys extended, because without them they typically don’t produce the same offense, we see it all the time. RBBC sounds great but it often misses as well.

But this is starting to feel disingenuous like all the other running back threads so I’m not sure what the point is in even arguing.



What is disingenuous?

My argument is you don't need balance between a passing game and running game to win. If you can somehow get it, great. But the better path to winning is having a upper level passing game.

The real "balance" argument is having a high scoring offense and a defense that bends but doesn't break and is in the upper half of the league in PPG allowed.



bw -- the flaw in this above argument what pointed out by your own comments above.

Green Bay has what may be the best passing game in football -- knocked out of the playoffs with that best passing game for ten years running now

N Orleans Saints with Drew Brees also right up there has failed to make it through the playoff multifaceted for 10 years running now

KC lost it's Super bowl bid 2 out of 3 years running with a high flying passing game

Tampa won it last year because it's defense came together and gelled and because they had a better than average passing game with an all time great QB. Even so they mixed in a running game.

I would argue that if Green bay had a running game -- the out come of their playoffs game might have been different -- Green Bay hasn't had even a decent running back in some time

The Patriots over the past 20 something years also have played a balanced attack that counted on a running game, passing game, defense and special teams

In my opinion you do need to have a championship defense to have the best shot at winning the prize; you also need an above average QB, or at least a QB that plays above average; and I also maintain that a QB in that above average realm, needs a running game to support his efforts along with a decent line.

Do you need a super running back to win? Probably not -- but that does not mean you can't win with a super running back and super running attack. Just because you don't have examples to cite does not mean it is not the case. Having a multi-pronged weapon like Barkley is still an asset you can use to win. The only argument about running backs that I would buy is that a dominant running game on it's own -- is not enough to win. However, it is equally true that a dominant passing game on it's own -- is not enough to win.

You need to be multifacited to win, and I can't think of a SuperBowl team that won without having a damned good Defense. I can, on the other hand, think of Superbowl teams that won it without having an upper level passing game.



Good post gidie, however I believe had Bakhtiari not gotten injured, Green Bay goes to the Super Bowl. KC likewise was missing both its starting tackles so it was open season on Mahomes in the SB, as it was against Rodgers in the NFCC game.

Neither GB or KC had Tampa's defense.

But I believe you to be correct that without a respectable running game the chances of winning in the NFL drop considerably.
Man alive  
JuliusPepperwood : 8/2/2021 7:25 am : link
I'm starting to sense a pattern on this board. Person A or B talks and everyone swarms. I'm almost afraid to chime in, this place is like Shark Week every day.
RE: Man alive  
Big Blue '56 : 8/2/2021 7:43 am : link
In comment 15319356 JuliusPepperwood said:
Quote:
I'm starting to sense a pattern on this board. Person A or B talks and everyone swarms. I'm almost afraid to chime in, this place is like Shark Week every day.


It gets worse
RE: RE: RE: RE: The best way to score points (Passing)  
Jimmy Googs : 8/2/2021 8:52 am : link
In comment 15319354 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15319341 gidiefor said:


Quote:


In comment 15319176 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15319144 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


is still predicated very much on the run game for the vast majority of teams in the league. And each position has its own average salary and range of guaranteed money - its pretty low for RBs due to longevity, not importance, IMO. There’s a reason these guys extended, because without them they typically don’t produce the same offense, we see it all the time. RBBC sounds great but it often misses as well.

But this is starting to feel disingenuous like all the other running back threads so I’m not sure what the point is in even arguing.



What is disingenuous?

My argument is you don't need balance between a passing game and running game to win. If you can somehow get it, great. But the better path to winning is having a upper level passing game.

The real "balance" argument is having a high scoring offense and a defense that bends but doesn't break and is in the upper half of the league in PPG allowed.



bw -- the flaw in this above argument what pointed out by your own comments above.

Green Bay has what may be the best passing game in football -- knocked out of the playoffs with that best passing game for ten years running now

N Orleans Saints with Drew Brees also right up there has failed to make it through the playoff multifaceted for 10 years running now

KC lost it's Super bowl bid 2 out of 3 years running with a high flying passing game

Tampa won it last year because it's defense came together and gelled and because they had a better than average passing game with an all time great QB. Even so they mixed in a running game.

I would argue that if Green bay had a running game -- the out come of their playoffs game might have been different -- Green Bay hasn't had even a decent running back in some time

The Patriots over the past 20 something years also have played a balanced attack that counted on a running game, passing game, defense and special teams

In my opinion you do need to have a championship defense to have the best shot at winning the prize; you also need an above average QB, or at least a QB that plays above average; and I also maintain that a QB in that above average realm, needs a running game to support his efforts along with a decent line.

Do you need a super running back to win? Probably not -- but that does not mean you can't win with a super running back and super running attack. Just because you don't have examples to cite does not mean it is not the case. Having a multi-pronged weapon like Barkley is still an asset you can use to win. The only argument about running backs that I would buy is that a dominant running game on it's own -- is not enough to win. However, it is equally true that a dominant passing game on it's own -- is not enough to win.

You need to be multifacited to win, and I can't think of a SuperBowl team that won without having a damned good Defense. I can, on the other hand, think of Superbowl teams that won it without having an upper level passing game.





Good post gidie, however I believe had Bakhtiari not gotten injured, Green Bay goes to the Super Bowl. KC likewise was missing both its starting tackles so it was open season on Mahomes in the SB, as it was against Rodgers in the NFCC game.

Neither GB or KC had Tampa's defense.

But I believe you to be correct that without a respectable running game the chances of winning in the NFL drop considerably.


gidiefor with a very good post. And Section actually hits the nail on the head with lost tackle and other comments...
Julius  
fkap : 8/2/2021 8:59 am : link
I was going to write a snarky comment about you only starting to sense a pattern, but then decided to check your sign up date just to make sure you weren't a noobie. good thing. Of course, you could be a dupe, in which case those who make it their life's mission to sniff out dupes will suss you out soon enough. Being a dupe and sniffing out dupes is another trend that often takes precedence over football.

Yup, this is standard operating procedure: attack the poster, not the post. Swarm. This thread is actually fairly benign.

With the advent of camp, and something to actually talk about, the venom/shark week phenomenon is muted. It'll return in full blown embarrassing strength soon.
RE: Man alive  
Jimmy Googs : 8/2/2021 9:07 am : link
In comment 15319356 JuliusPepperwood said:
Quote:
I'm starting to sense a pattern on this board. Person A or B talks and everyone swarms. I'm almost afraid to chime in, this place is like Shark Week every day.


You'll be fine. Just stay away from any critiques of DJ, Saquon and Gettleman. Don't ever bring up anything from 2018 or generally anything prior to Joe Judge arriving. But keep a soft spot for posters that promote conspiracy and mandate theories, as they add the real color to threads...

Green Bay has a very  
Lines of Scrimmage : 8/2/2021 9:08 am : link
good running game. They actually have been very good at putting together good OL's for like 30 years now.

How much cap is allocated is not a science. Championships have been won lots of ways when it comes to spending money.

2007 Giants. Money was spent on WR, DL and somewhat at OL. Eli was on the old contract system so he was more expensive than current rookie contracts. RB's were cheap on the roster.

2011 Giants: Big money on the OL and QB. RB's were higher at this point. WR was a bargain. Money was big again on DL and safety.

RE: Green Bay has a very  
UConn4523 : 8/2/2021 9:19 am : link
In comment 15319418 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
good running game. They actually have been very good at putting together good OL's for like 30 years now.

How much cap is allocated is not a science. Championships have been won lots of ways when it comes to spending money.

2007 Giants. Money was spent on WR, DL and somewhat at OL. Eli was on the old contract system so he was more expensive than current rookie contracts. RB's were cheap on the roster.

2011 Giants: Big money on the OL and QB. RB's were higher at this point. WR was a bargain. Money was big again on DL and safety.


WR and DL (specifically edge rushers) are where I see the biggest overspend taking place in this era of football over any other, often times with a poor return on investment. WR contracts are insane, and the number of busts are starting to pile up. Fingers cross Golladay isn't one of them (although his guarantees are 10th in the league and fairly reasonable). RB contracts are now a bargain Cook, Kamara, Chubb all have great deals and all 3 players are the MVP's of their offense.

No idea what Barkley will command but arguing about it is as irrelevant as it can be right now. He needs to prove he's healthy - if he doesn't I suspect he won't get contract #2 for us. And even if he does, speculating what it will look like is pointless.
RE: Instead of paying Chubb,  
Giantology : 8/2/2021 9:22 am : link
In comment 15318588 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I think the move is to either trade him or let him play out his rookie deal, sign a big deal elsewhere, and help your comp pick formula.


Everyone on this board could predict what you think the Browns should have done. You've had the same formula for a while, some sort of fantasy where each player with an expiring contract is replaced by a mid-level draft pick or a UDFA.
RE: Julius  
JuliusPepperwood : 8/2/2021 9:25 am : link
In comment 15319401 fkap said:
Quote:
I was going to write a snarky comment about you only starting to sense a pattern, but then decided to check your sign up date just to make sure you weren't a noobie. good thing. Of course, you could be a dupe, in which case those who make it their life's mission to sniff out dupes will suss you out soon enough. Being a dupe and sniffing out dupes is another trend that often takes precedence over football.

Yup, this is standard operating procedure: attack the poster, not the post. Swarm. This thread is actually fairly benign.

With the advent of camp, and something to actually talk about, the venom/shark week phenomenon is muted. It'll return in full blown embarrassing strength soon.
I appreciate you not attacking, I was just told about this site a few weeks ago, and I was warned but man it's rough here. I'll be a peanut gallery type, I'm not one for all the arguing, I do that enough with my idiot brother who is somehow a Jets fan.
Last year..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/2/2021 9:27 am : link
TB really started to get on a roll when Fournette was a factor. He had an excellent postseason and probably could have been the MVP of the Super Bowl.

That's the thing I don't get about the high praise for the top offenses. It will get you to the playoffs, but the team that wins is most often the team who has their defense strengthen and who has a consistent running game.

That's generally been the formula for at least one team in the SB
The risk with a Barkley contract  
Mike from Ohio : 8/2/2021 12:58 pm : link
is going to be whether the Giants pay him based on his actual production, or on his potential. When fully healthy, you can certainly argue Barkley is a more complete back than Chubb. But to this point, who has been more productive and a more impactful player on their team's success? It's Chubb.

If Barkley wants a contract north of what Chubb got, this is a critical year for him to play 16 games and produce consistently.

Barring another bad injury (God forbid) I don't think there is any chance the Giants do not resign him.
Fournette is a great example  
Go Terps : 8/2/2021 1:10 pm : link
Tampa signed him off the street on September 2, 2020 for $2M. If you're going to point to him as proof of anything it's that spending at the position doesn't make much sense.
RE: Fournette is a great example  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/2/2021 1:17 pm : link
In comment 15319781 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Tampa signed him off the street on September 2, 2020 for $2M. If you're going to point to him as proof of anything it's that spending at the position doesn't make much sense.


It is also proof that a running game is needed for a Super Bowl run/win.

Multiple things can be at play although I know that's a tough topic to grasp when you want to make it sound like there is only one viable strategy when it comes to RB's.
.  
Go Terps : 8/2/2021 1:24 pm : link
I agree - multiple things are at play in creating a successful running game...which begs the question again why you'd overspend at RB when the success of the position is so reliant on outside factors.
RE: .  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/2/2021 1:26 pm : link
In comment 15319809 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I agree - multiple things are at play in creating a successful running game...which begs the question again why you'd overspend at RB when the success of the position is so reliant on outside factors.


and another Go Panic moment -- if you don't do it his way -- he Panics
The key..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/2/2021 1:38 pm : link
word is "overspend".

If you equate spending money on a position that you think can be filled with any scrub, then it isn't really a discussion. I think you know where Fournette was drafted.

Pay a RB fairly and you won't be in a tough shape with the cap.
RE: RE: RE: The best way to score points (Passing)  
bw in dc : 8/2/2021 1:40 pm : link
In comment 15319341 gidiefor said:
Quote:

bw -- the flaw in this above argument what pointed out by your own comments above.

Green Bay has what may be the best passing game in football -- knocked out of the playoffs with that best passing game for ten years running now

N Orleans Saints with Drew Brees also right up there has failed to make it through the playoff multifaceted for 10 years running now

KC lost it's Super bowl bid 2 out of 3 years running with a high flying passing game

Tampa won it last year because it's defense came together and gelled and because they had a better than average passing game with an all time great QB. Even so they mixed in a running game.

I would argue that if Green bay had a running game -- the out come of their playoffs game might have been different -- Green Bay hasn't had even a decent running back in some time

The Patriots over the past 20 something years also have played a balanced attack that counted on a running game, passing game, defense and special teams

In my opinion you do need to have a championship defense to have the best shot at winning the prize; you also need an above average QB, or at least a QB that plays above average; and I also maintain that a QB in that above average realm, needs a running game to support his efforts along with a decent line.

Do you need a super running back to win? Probably not -- but that does not mean you can't win with a super running back and super running attack. Just because you don't have examples to cite does not mean it is not the case. Having a multi-pronged weapon like Barkley is still an asset you can use to win. The only argument about running backs that I would buy is that a dominant running game on it's own -- is not enough to win. However, it is equally true that a dominant passing game on it's own -- is not enough to win.

You need to be multifacited to win, and I can't think of a SuperBowl team that won without having a damned good Defense. I can, on the other hand, think of Superbowl teams that won it without having an upper level passing game.




There is a lot to unpack here.

I agree with your multifaceted POV.

My guess is our differences here are the level of each facet that is needed to consistently compete.

I think the most important elements to consistently win are: (1) having a passing game that drives PPG (having the right QB), (2) having a solid defense that is top 12ish in PPG allowed, (3) and then having a running decent-good running game.

The Pats, FWIW, morphed from a traditional "balanced" team - a team that tried to establish a running game - in the early stages of their dynasty ('01 - '07) to a dominant passing team once they recognized and trusted Brady's elite talent.

So their running game since, with Brady, was really a derivate of their passing attack smothering teams, building a lead, and then they ran to kill clock.

I'm not sure I get the point on the Packers. They have consistently knocked on the door challenging for titles for the last 10-14 years. And in largely because they solved the most important variable with Rodgers. Could they have been a little better here and there at times to possibly have another SB or two? Sure. But at least, again, they have been there knocking on the door.

And let's be honest, in 2015 they had Seattle beat in the NFC championship game until the Brandon Bostick flubbed the onside kick and Seattle pulled off the miracle win. Otherwise, they could have a second SB title.

However, this debate, really, has been about the best way to build a running game. So I haven't said it's not a need to address. But I steadfastly remain in the camp that that is best achieved through investing less in the RB position and more in the OL. If you have a competent scouting department, you should always been able to find RB solutions in the draft, with undrafted players or in free agency.
RE: The key..  
Go Terps : 8/2/2021 1:40 pm : link
In comment 15319826 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
word is "overspend".

If you equate spending money on a position that you think can be filled with any scrub, then it isn't really a discussion. I think you know where Fournette was drafted.

Pay a RB fairly and you won't be in a tough shape with the cap.


I do know where Fournette was drafted...and how'd that end up working out for the team that drafted him?
RE: RE: .  
Go Terps : 8/2/2021 1:41 pm : link
In comment 15319813 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 15319809 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I agree - multiple things are at play in creating a successful running game...which begs the question again why you'd overspend at RB when the success of the position is so reliant on outside factors.



and another Go Panic moment -- if you don't do it his way -- he Panics


I know you're trying to get this to catch on, but it isn't working. You're a shitty poster and a shitty moderator.
RE: RE: Fournette is a great example  
bw in dc : 8/2/2021 1:43 pm : link
In comment 15319793 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

It is also proof that a running game is needed for a Super Bowl run/win.



No one has denied that having a running game isn't important. I don't think it's on the same level as developing an elite passing attack, but it's certainly wise to address it.

The question continues to be the best way to solve for it. And I contend, like always, it's best to go on the cheap with RBs - because they are so disposal - and focus more on building the right OL.

Money spent on OLs is such a wiser investment that I don't even think it's a close call...
RE: RE: The key..  
bw in dc : 8/2/2021 1:47 pm : link
In comment 15319829 Go Terps said:
Quote:


I do know where Fournette was drafted...and how'd that end up working out for the team that drafted him?


So true. A very dumb move by Jacksonville. As dumb as ours when we drafted SB.

But kudos to the Bucs for timing it perfectly when to buy LF. He could still play but on a much cheaper, team friendly deal. And he's desperate to stay in the league.

That's a very good way to do.
History..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/2/2021 1:47 pm : link
doesn't show that going on the cheap for RB's has been a good strategy for the SB participants. The average pay for RB's of those teams is usually middle of the pack with a few cases of RB's highly paid and a couple where the teams are in the lowest quartile.
Us..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/2/2021 1:48 pm : link
and Jax were dumb to select RB's??

Fournette was a key part of Jax getting to a Championship game or are memories that short? Or perhaps intentionally oblivious because it goes against a narrative?
RE: Man alive  
UConn4523 : 8/2/2021 1:51 pm : link
In comment 15319356 JuliusPepperwood said:
Quote:
I'm starting to sense a pattern on this board. Person A or B talks and everyone swarms. I'm almost afraid to chime in, this place is like Shark Week every day.


Now you’re getting some action. My advice is to stock up on popcorn and enjoy the show. Soon enough you’ll be firing up the microwave based on the thread titles alone.
RE: Us..  
bw in dc : 8/2/2021 1:56 pm : link
In comment 15319846 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
and Jax were dumb to select RB's??

Fournette was a key part of Jax getting to a Championship game or are memories that short? Or perhaps intentionally oblivious because it goes against a narrative?


Fournette did have a nice year during that run. So?

And like with most RBs, he got hurt - due to the nature of the position; diminishing returns - and he's been about 60% of what was expected of him when he was drafted. The ROI was upside down Jax, which is why they - smartly - got rid of him.

And, yes, the SB selection was dumb. Great player but our record has been miserable with and without him during his tenure.

But, hey, he looks cool jumping over defenders and he's a class act. If that makes you feel good instead of winning, I can see why you liked the selection so much.
Fournette was worth the 4th overall pick because the Jaguars  
Jimmy Googs : 8/2/2021 2:20 pm : link
made it to the AFC championship game in 2017?

I guess the Jaguars made a crucial error in letting him go to Tampa too otherwise they would be holding the Lombardi Trophy.

The Jags were only able to replace him with a scrub undrafted free agent rookie named James Robinson who rushed for over 1,000 yards with another 300+ yards receiving, and 10 touchdowns.
So..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/2/2021 2:47 pm : link
a draft pick's worth is how the record is??

Quote:
And, yes, the SB selection was dumb. Great player but our record has been miserable with and without him during his tenure.

But, hey, he looks cool jumping over defenders and he's a class act. If that makes you feel good instead of winning, I can see why you liked the selection so much.


That means basically every Giants pick has been a terrible one for the past 7-8 years.

I like having good players on the team. The more good players you have, the better you'll be as a team. Barkley is an excellent player.
Most of the draft picks have been bad ones  
Go Terps : 8/2/2021 2:57 pm : link
Particularly the critical first and second round picks.

And is Barkley a great player, really?
RE: So..  
bw in dc : 8/2/2021 3:32 pm : link
In comment 15319940 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

That means basically every Giants pick has been a terrible one for the past 7-8 years.

I like having good players on the team. The more good players you have, the better you'll be as a team. Barkley is an excellent player.


Unfortunately, we have struggled with picking the right players.

Everyone likes having good players. But it's more than that. It's having the best players you can at the right positions.

Right positions being the premium positions. And RB is not one of those.
RE: Most of the draft picks have been bad ones  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/2/2021 3:42 pm : link
In comment 15319957 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Particularly the critical first and second round picks.

And is Barkley a great player, really?


Let's See Looking at 2018-2021:

These are all bad picks?

With the exception of Baker -- how do you know they are bad picks? Oh I forgot -- Go Panic


Barkley
Hernandez
Jones
Lawrence
Baker
Thomas
McKinney
Toney
Ojulari
RE: Most of the draft picks have been bad ones  
BigBlueShock : 8/2/2021 3:45 pm : link
In comment 15319957 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Particularly the critical first and second round picks.

And is Barkley a great player, really?

If you were to poll players, coaches and GMs around the NFL, what do you think their answer to this question would be?
As if the NY Giant roster was so strong in 2018 that it could  
Jimmy Googs : 8/2/2021 3:51 pm : link
really afford selecting a RB at overall #2. And not that he isn't one of the better ones when he plays, but injury factors and longevity issues at the position don't help that cause.

But now, after 3 additional offseasons later of actual rebuilding and an ACL/MCL operation of that original pick, we get to see if this roster is actually ready to compete for a playoff spot.

Not a good process but hopefully Barkley gets to be part of a winning one with the Giants before his career takes another turn...
RE: RE: Most of the draft picks have been bad ones  
bw in dc : 8/2/2021 3:58 pm : link
In comment 15320007 gidiefor said:
Quote:

Barkley
Hernandez
Jones
Lawrence
Baker
Thomas
McKinney
Toney
Ojulari


You can't list Toney and Ojulari. They haven't shown anything yet. And I loved the Ojulari pick.

Jones is still a huge question mark.

Hernandez took a major step back last year. So I don't know how anyone can fill good about that pick right now...

And we really don't know what we have McKinney yet. I'm rather bullish, but let's so a full season first...
...  
BrettNYG10 : 8/2/2021 3:59 pm : link
Outside of Lawrence, which of those are definitively good picks?
RE: ...  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/2/2021 4:03 pm : link
In comment 15320026 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Outside of Lawrence, which of those are definitively good picks?


good or bad? -- Go Panic has decided the majority of them are bad -- With the exception of Baker -- I don't know how anyone can come to such a decisive conclusion

When a supposed..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/2/2021 4:06 pm : link
football fan saw Barkley's rookie season and attributes the team record to equating to him not having a good year, and then says he isn't a great player, I don't know what meets that bar.

Does that mean there aren't any great players on bad teams?
RE: RE: Most of the draft picks have been bad ones  
Go Terps : 8/2/2021 4:06 pm : link
In comment 15320011 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 15319957 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Particularly the critical first and second round picks.

And is Barkley a great player, really?


If you were to poll players, coaches and GMs around the NFL, what do you think their answer to this question would be?


I think all of the above would say he's a good player, because he is. But I do think the coaches and GMs would have major reservations about his poor blocking and his health. And I think most of the GMs would say the Giants made a big mistake drafting him at #2.
Strong running game  
AcesUp : 8/2/2021 4:09 pm : link
Is more of a product of a strong OL than the skill of the RB itself. The balanced team thing cuts both ways too, a weak passing game isn't going to do your running game any favors - you will be more predictable and your RB will be seeing more defenders.

If you are allocating resources from scratch in a vacuum, you're being completely ignorant not to have a bias towards the passing game. It's inarguable at this point, you're playing the game with how it's called and the rules have been stacking up in favor of the passing game and points exponentially in the last decade. In the end when it comes to the Giants, you build towards your strengths, if the Giants end up being a significantly more efficient running team than passing, they should exhibit a bias towards the run game (this includes utilizing Jones there). If that is the identity they start to build and the efficiency numbers reflect that, then they should go in that direction. This would probably mean extending Barkley unless he were seeking an outrageous benchmark setting contract. They shouldn't do it out of some bullshit nostalgia about smashmouth or football dogma on "that's how you win football games". You win by doing more of what you are good at and less of what you are not without falling into a predictable pattern.
Hernandez is looking  
fkap : 8/2/2021 4:12 pm : link
more and more like a bad pick.

I don't think the DG draft era has been all that special.

But anyhoo, I cross referenced 2020's top 10 rushers with draft position:
rushing position/round/ total position taken

1/2/45
2/2/41
3/2/41
4/5/182
5/undrafted
6/3/73
7/2/35
8/1/24
9/1/32 * Lamar Jackson, QB
10/1/15

SB, at #2 overall seems an extravagant pick for value. That argument's time has passed, but the list above seems to indicate that a draft pick on day 2 might be a wiser expenditure than dollars, depending on how high the dollar figure is.

Even wiser is knowing how to draft and bring in FA so that after all the capital spent on an OL, we'd have one that can make an average RB look better, and the QB wouldn't spend so much time running for his life.

RE: When a supposed..  
Go Terps : 8/2/2021 4:13 pm : link
In comment 15320038 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
football fan saw Barkley's rookie season and attributes the team record to equating to him not having a good year, and then says he isn't a great player, I don't know what meets that bar.

Does that mean there aren't any great players on bad teams?


Barkley's rookie season is overrated by you. The ball went his way over 380 times. With that much usage you'd better clear 2000 yards. Again - a play that went to Barkley gained less than the average play leaguewide (5.6 to 5.3).

You want to give Barkley credit something for that year, it should probably be that he didn't break down from overuse. But then again who knows what impact his 2018 use had on his injuries in 2019 and 2020.

I don't know how pointing that out makes me a lesser football fan. I'm also not interested in being a great fan, so have at it on that score.
Seven..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/2/2021 4:14 pm : link
out of the top 10 being selected in the first two rounds does goes against the idea that any warm body will do well.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/2/2021 4:17 pm : link
there's that patented exaggeration. The only thing Barkley should get credit for is not breaking down from overuse??

Just a fucking farce at this point.

How many people really think Barkley wasn't great his rookie season, and yet you continue to go through the gymnastics to say he wasn't. Only you know why that fucking is.
What gymnastics? It's easy math  
Go Terps : 8/2/2021 4:43 pm : link
When the ball went his way the Giants gained 5.3 yards/play. That'd less than the NFL average that year. If you consider that gymnastics then you must really struggle with math.
RE: LOL..  
BigBlueShock : 8/2/2021 4:44 pm : link
In comment 15320063 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
there's that patented exaggeration. The only thing Barkley should get credit for is not breaking down from overuse??

Just a fucking farce at this point.

How many people really think Barkley wasn't great his rookie season, and yet you continue to go through the gymnastics to say he wasn't. Only you know why that fucking is.

Over 2000 yards from scrimmage and 15 TDs. As a rookie. Doesn’t every scrub RB do that as rookies?
Barkley's 5.3 yards per play in 2018 is actually  
UConn4523 : 8/2/2021 4:44 pm : link
better than Derrick Henry's from 2020. Putting that out there for context since he was the offensive player of the year.

So I guess Henry being under the league average per play sucks too, right?
RE: What gymnastics? It's easy math  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/2/2021 5:11 pm : link
In comment 15320090 Go Terps said:
Quote:
When the ball went his way the Giants gained 5.3 yards/play. That'd less than the NFL average that year. If you consider that gymnastics then you must really struggle with math.


"Easy math". You have a really strong penchant for picking and choosing specific stats and telling the board they are what makes the player bad. Just like the AY/A stat for QB's. You make it seem like that stat is fairly static and indicative of the QB when it is more of an indication of offensive efficiency.

If points are your barometer, 15 TD's is a lot of points, or do points only matter for other arguments with non-Giants?
...  
christian : 8/2/2021 6:02 pm : link
I think we can all agree top line yards number don't always tell the whole story.

The best example is of course a 1000 yard rusher. Not so impressive if it takes 300 carries and a 3.3 YPC.

It's fair to look at Barkley's big number in 2018 with a little bit of that angle.

On the ground, there's no way around it, he had a fantastic individual year as a running back. Lots of yards, lots of TDs, good amount of first downs.

If you believe in the intrinsic value of running the ball, this helps too because it's setting up the play action, wearing down the defense, and is a lower risk of a zero yard play. I think this is part of the argument for running the ball well later in the year.

In the air the 720 yards has to be evaluating in the context of 121 targets. More than the #2 WR. And at 6 YPT, that's pretty mediocre. 30 first downs and 4 TDs on 121 targets isn't that impressive as well.

1) We all know Barkley got a lot of targets that were extended handoffs. I don't love that type of offense. It takes away from the intrinsic value of a rush in some ways.

2) We all know Barkley got a lot of targets because the pass protection and pass game was bad. I don't love that type of target either, because it's a desperation target.

I think the more impressive stats to hang your hat one are the 11 rushing TDs and the 1300 yards. That's the goods.
christian...  
bw in dc : 8/2/2021 6:48 pm : link
The other positive note on SB is that he doesn't turn the ball over. Of the 350+ touches, he had no fumbles as a rookie, which is very good.

In fact, I think in his three seasons too date (well, two...with the injury) he's put the ball on the ground only once.
Christian - would suggest a ton of those targets to Saquon  
Jimmy Googs : 8/2/2021 6:54 pm : link
in 2018 was not only a bad OL but due to a declining and skittish Eli in the pocket who didn't want to risk the pick or QB hit/sack.

And on third and long (or very long) Eli wouldn't give this much thought and that ball was swung out to Saquon to get some yards before the eventual punt.
 
christian : 8/2/2021 7:37 pm : link
Googs — agreed. 2018 Barkley in the air was an OK number two passing target whose stats benefited from a broken offense.

If you look at two of the really impressive seasons in the air running backs have had recently, CMC in 2019 and Kamara in 2017, the efficiency is much better.

CMC was 7.1 YPT, and ridiculous 58 first downs. Kamara was 8.3 YPT and 38 first downs.

I hope a healthy Barkley is a running back primarily, and the Giants utilize their WRs and TEs downfield more. There’s no reason with Golladay, Shepard, Slayton, Toney, Engram, and Rudolph — that Barkley should be 20% of the pass targets.
RE: …  
Jimmy Googs : 8/2/2021 10:27 pm : link
In comment 15320302 christian said:
Quote:
Googs — agreed. 2018 Barkley in the air was an OK number two passing target whose stats benefited from a broken offense.

If you look at two of the really impressive seasons in the air running backs have had recently, CMC in 2019 and Kamara in 2017, the efficiency is much better.

CMC was 7.1 YPT, and ridiculous 58 first downs. Kamara was 8.3 YPT and 38 first downs.

I hope a healthy Barkley is a running back primarily, and the Giants utilize their WRs and TEs downfield more. There’s no reason with Golladay, Shepard, Slayton, Toney, Engram, and Rudolph — that Barkley should be 20% of the pass targets.


Yep, hopefully he is improving his pass protection because that is where the true plus yards will come when he is not the target...
It boils down to  
Scooter185 : 8/2/2021 10:55 pm : link
If you believe a superstar RB moves the needle enough to pay him large amounts of coin for a 2nd contract/extension or can he be replaced by a serviceable RB for cheaper when the contract is up.
RE: It boils down to  
UConn4523 : 8/3/2021 7:59 am : link
In comment 15320597 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
If you believe a superstar RB moves the needle enough to pay him large amounts of coin for a 2nd contract/extension or can he be replaced by a serviceable RB for cheaper when the contract is up.


Outside of character concerns (Bell) top RBs are almost always extended regardless of team record and whether or not they are 1 piece away. So it begs the question - why? Why are there so many terrible GMs out there giving these players money that they can simply replace since the position is so fungible?
What the expert..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2021 8:16 am : link
capologists on BBI fail to grasp about RB's is that very few of them take up such substantial cap that they are burdensome. People here would jump to give a WR $20M if they had 15TD's in a season and call it a bargain.

People make it sound like RB's are all the same, so in their minds, anything over $5M a year is a tough thing. Just look at the way one idiot carried on about the Jonathon Stewart contract as a "fireable offense".
There are more examples than just L. Bell as to problems teams  
Jimmy Googs : 8/3/2021 8:33 am : link
have run into paying large second contracts to top running backs. Not that it destroyed their cap but it certainly didn't help it when the RB didn't earn that deal and was released or traded as a result.
 
christian : 8/3/2021 11:08 am : link
1) Step 1: Make a presumptive claim and attribute it to a mythical group of people - check

2) Step 2: Provide a dubious example full over errors - coming

3) Step 3. Disappear when easily called on it - coming
That was pretty funny  
Jimmy Googs : 8/3/2021 11:16 am : link
...
RE: …  
bw in dc : 8/3/2021 11:28 am : link
In comment 15320939 christian said:
Quote:
1)

3) Step 3. Disappear when easily called on it - coming


So spot on.

I'm sure our Fat friend is squeezing through his escape hatch right now...
RE: RE: …  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2021 11:30 am : link
In comment 15320981 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15320939 christian said:


Quote:


1)

3) Step 3. Disappear when easily called on it - coming



So spot on.

I'm sure our Fat friend is squeezing through his escape hatch right now...


Is the one you used to disappear from the board for the 5-year period spanning the Super Bowls clear yet?
RE: What the expert..  
bw in dc : 8/3/2021 11:32 am : link
In comment 15320695 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
capologists on BBI fail to grasp about RB's is that very few of them take up such substantial cap that they are burdensome. People here would jump to give a WR $20M if they had 15TD's in a season and call it a bargain.


What is substantial?

Many of us, btw, are not comfortable with the money we shelled out for KG based on his injuries and if he's a true #1.
I'm..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2021 11:37 am : link
not sure what money you're comfortable with, period.

How long did you complain about the Williams contract negotiation? How long did you "spitball" that we'd have no money to sign any other players because we overpaid for a DT?

When the same people always bitch about every move, you'll crow about it when that player doesn't pan out. Don't hear much when the player does.

Just like your extended absence from the board. when your bitching about Eli's draft day acquisition no longer had a crowd to agree with it and the Giants won Super Bowls, your ass conveniently disappeared from here.

RE: RE: RE: …  
bw in dc : 8/3/2021 11:44 am : link
In comment 15320984 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

Is the one you used to disappear from the board for the 5-year period spanning the Super Bowls clear yet?


Can you get some new material? For someone apparently so smart, your act is very stale.

Regardless, at least I try to answer all replies direction towards me.

Unlike you, who sneaks away like a typical bully when your non-sense is challenged.

I didn't want KG  
UConn4523 : 8/3/2021 11:47 am : link
but his contract is actually pretty solid and safe so it offsets the worry for me. Its a matter of health, he's going to produce when he's on the field especially paired with Barkley and Toney. But I definitely wanted Robinson over him (which was moot since he got tagged).
RBs are so easily replaced  
djm : 8/3/2021 12:18 pm : link
yet it took the Giants years to find one and now he's coming off injury. The only year he was fully healthy was the only year we had anything close to a running game.

They aren't easy to find. The running game can be easily remedied IF and only IF that team has a good OL, dominant passing game and fills the RB position adequately. If any of those 3 things fall out of place, the running game will struggle.

It aint easy to fund RBs. Just because you can conjure up examples of an Ahmad Bradshaw here or Olandis Gary there doesn't make it so. You can also conjure up good left tackles that were drafted after round 1. Same with QB. Doesn't mean they are easy to find either.

How many great running games are populated with a mid to low round RB? And from that list, how many of those teams have an insanely mobile and athletic QB AND/OR have an awesome OL?

Wayne Gallman or the 2020 NYG offense is not a good example! If anything, it just further proves my point. The Giants offense sucked for most of last season. Even on its best day, it was merely functional. Wayne Fucking Gallman? You're going to bring up .5 YPC as some indicator that going from Barkley to Gallman is not that big a drop, during a NYG second half season that FINALLY saw the OL play a little bit better, all the while the team still couldn't keep defenses honest in the biggest of games, as some sort of clear cut proof that a team can win with journeymen talent at RB over the stud?

Nice try. It's way wrong but good effort.
RE: RE: RE: RE: …  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2021 12:20 pm : link
In comment 15321010 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15320984 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:



Is the one you used to disappear from the board for the 5-year period spanning the Super Bowls clear yet?



Can you get some new material? For someone apparently so smart, your act is very stale.

Regardless, at least I try to answer all replies direction towards me.

Unlike you, who sneaks away like a typical bully when your non-sense is challenged.


I don't think talking about stale acts is really in your favor here. Your material has been the same throughout - complain about the team and disappear when they are good.

As for sneaking away, there is a certain point in time where debates are done. Why should I have to answer every point, especially when so many of them are redundant or posed by guys just trolling.

I mean, look at the majority of Jimmy Clownshoes posts - he's just looking for a reaction - not to have a discussion.
one change  
djm : 8/3/2021 12:22 pm : link
"The only year he was fully healthy was the only year we had anything close to a running game." Should say anything close to an actual NFL offense.

Barkley is a weapon. He's the reason why this offense has a shot to win 11 games this season. INstead of enjoying that, you cannot wait to tear down the myth that good RBs aren't important or even essential to winning.

Look at the playoff teams every year! Nearly every single one has top flight talent at the RB or mobile QB position. That matters!

I do think RB is a position that can be had in round 2, unlike perhaps LT, but it's still a position that lends itself to being drafted in the first 2 rounds, just like any other position, save for a few exceptions, and by few I mean very few.


Fatman - you have got to be kidding me...  
Jimmy Googs : 8/3/2021 12:25 pm : link
You run around here crying "Hypocrisy" nearly every day and then put out nonsense posts like these.

The debates are over when you get stuck in a bad position, decide it would look foolish to continue to berate others on their opinions and look for your trusty escape hatches. Nothing more...
if we had Barkley  
djm : 8/3/2021 12:26 pm : link
we make the playoffs last season. In our sleep. The no playoff streak is over. The record last year looks 1-2 games better. And this team has a playoff game under their belts.

We need Barkley. Like it or not. He's an extraordinary weapon and anyone who conjures up stats to diminish his ability or impact is lost. This team didn't win in the 80s until they got Joe MOrris going. They didn't win in 93 without Hampton. They didn't go anywhere in 97 without the impact from Charles Way. Nowhere in 2000-2005 without Tiki Barber. And they fall flat in 07-11 without the efforts of Jacobs and Bradshaw. If we had a big time talent at RB in 16-17 who knows what happens. Sitting here and diminishing Barkley's impact because of an injury and a bad team is fucking ridiculous. Talk about confirmation bias.
again  
djm : 8/3/2021 12:31 pm : link
some of you LOVE to disparage a player without taking into account the entire team and coaching. Barley's 2018 season was overrated? No, it was wasted. Can you even try to fathom how that season looks if an actual PRO defense is lining up on the other side of the ball for NYG that season? Forget any other excuses, we don't need them. The OL was a shit show. Eli was making more business decisions than he had year's prior, all well n good, but let's leave that O exactly where it is, no changes, and just add actual NFL talent to the D that want to compete? And add a real DC? Add a D that doesn't cave week in week out and let the 386 pts scored stand up on its own.

I guess we can't ask for a PIttburg Steeler type effort from that NYG defense can we.

We sucked in 2018 because the defense was comically bad. Barkley was the only thing right with that offense. That and the occasional Eli to Beckham brilliance.
RE: Fatman - you have got to be kidding me...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/3/2021 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15321060 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
You run around here crying "Hypocrisy" nearly every day and then put out nonsense posts like these.

The debates are over when you get stuck in a bad position, decide it would look foolish to continue to berate others on their opinions and look for your trusty escape hatches. Nothing more...


Again - these debates are fueled in part by posters like you - trolls who put out no analysis or put out no actual information. I mean just look at your sad posting history.

You were banned for being a chucklehead and immediately created a duplicate handle to return to the board and continue posting the same vapid shit. At some point in debates, the points have been made and beaten to death.

If you call bowing out using an escape hatch, what is it called when you're kicked off a board and stay? And for what purpose - to troll. Jimmy Clownshoes!
djm...  
bw in dc : 8/3/2021 12:48 pm : link
RBs aren't easy to find? Really? Or is our scouting department not good at it?

Because of the current RBs in the league, here are some very good ones who were found in the 3rd round or later.

Seattle found Chris Carson in the 7th round.
Green Bay found Aaron Jones in the 5th round.
Jacksonville found James Robinson in the undrafted pool.
Denver found Phillip Lindsey in the undrafted pool.
WFT found Antonio Gibson in the 3rd round.
Saints found Kamara in the 3rd round.
Colts found Marlon Mack in the 4th round.
Bears found David Montgomery in the 3rd round.

Hell, two of the best backs in the league right now were second round picks - Henry and Chubb.

So RBs are indeed everywhere. It's up to the personnel department to do their job and find them. Or another team definitely will.
...  
christian : 8/3/2021 12:55 pm : link
The reality is Chubb didn't sign a ridiculous extension. The material likely to be earned money is concentrated in the first two years of the extension according to OTC.

2021: 4.8M cap hit (rookie deal)
2022: 5.2M cap hit (extension)
2023: 14.8M cap hit (extension)
2024: 16.2M cap hit (extension)

The Browns can cut Chubbs after 2023, with 4M dead money.

In this scenario, Chubbs plays the next 3 years and earns a total of 28.7M (9.6M for AAV crowd).

A very plausible outcome for Saquon Barkley over the next 3 years is a total of 26M (8.7M AAV).

2021: 10M (rookie deal)
2022: 7.1M (5th year option)
2023: 8.9M (franchise tender)

All things equal, the question the Giants will face after this year -- are Chubbs and Barkley of roughly equal value over the next 3 years.
RE: RE: Fatman - you have got to be kidding me...  
Jimmy Googs : 8/3/2021 1:01 pm : link
In comment 15321092 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15321060 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


You run around here crying "Hypocrisy" nearly every day and then put out nonsense posts like these.

The debates are over when you get stuck in a bad position, decide it would look foolish to continue to berate others on their opinions and look for your trusty escape hatches. Nothing more...



Again - these debates are fueled in part by posters like you - trolls who put out no analysis or put out no actual information. I mean just look at your sad posting history.

You were banned for being a chucklehead and immediately created a duplicate handle to return to the board and continue posting the same vapid shit. At some point in debates, the points have been made and beaten to death.

If you call bowing out using an escape hatch, what is it called when you're kicked off a board and stay? And for what purpose - to troll. Jimmy Clownshoes!


I call it your continuing diatribe of nonsense.

The escape hatch comments getting under your skin I guess. Or again, maybe it was taking a few shots yesterday that has set you off into today's tirades.

And you do indeed need some new material. That way we can move onto making fun of something fresh when you go off berating others...
RE: djm...  
Jimmy Googs : 8/3/2021 1:05 pm : link
In comment 15321100 bw in dc said:
Quote:
RBs aren't easy to find? Really? Or is our scouting department not good at it?

Because of the current RBs in the league, here are some very good ones who were found in the 3rd round or later.

Seattle found Chris Carson in the 7th round.
Green Bay found Aaron Jones in the 5th round.
Jacksonville found James Robinson in the undrafted pool.
Denver found Phillip Lindsey in the undrafted pool.
WFT found Antonio Gibson in the 3rd round.
Saints found Kamara in the 3rd round.
Colts found Marlon Mack in the 4th round.
Bears found David Montgomery in the 3rd round.

Hell, two of the best backs in the league right now were second round picks - Henry and Chubb.

So RBs are indeed everywhere. It's up to the personnel department to do their job and find them. Or another team definitely will.


James Robinson isn't really a good example.

FmiC convinced everybody yesterday that Leonard Fournette as the #4 overall pick in 2017 is the 'sweet-spot" where you find running backs because JAX made it to the AFC Championship in his rookie year...
...  
christian : 8/3/2021 1:17 pm : link
Also, to the previous point about WRs making 20M dollars a year and scoring 15 TDs.

1) If the WR scored 15 TDs 2 full seasons ago, and then missed 17 games the next 2 years, I suspect there would be skepticism

2) Only 4 WRs in the NFL have an AAV of over 20M -- such a small group with a few dubious results. Specifically Amari Cooper. At that cost, I imagine there would be a lot of critics.

So I amend my previous checklist:

1) Step 1: Make a presumptive claim and attribute it to a mythical group of people - check

2) Step 2: Provide a dubious example full over errors - check

3) Step 3: Disappear when easily called on it - coming
RE: RE: djm...  
bw in dc : 8/3/2021 2:41 pm : link
In comment 15321137 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

James Robinson isn't really a good example.

FmiC convinced everybody yesterday that Leonard Fournette as the #4 overall pick in 2017 is the 'sweet-spot" where you find running backs because JAX made it to the AFC Championship in his rookie year...


My bad. I forgot about that. In three years with Jax, LF played in 36 games out of 48, ran for 2,600+ yards, and scored 17 TDs on 4 YPC.

Incredible production, really, for the 4th pick in the draft.
Caught on film...  
Jimmy Googs : 8/3/2021 2:59 pm : link

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