Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
Free agent Tim Hardaway Jr. has agreed to a four-year, $72 million deal to return to the Dallas Mavericks, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
Breaking: Five-time NBA All-Star Jimmy Butler is expected to agree to a maximum contract extension with the Miami Heat when the league year opens on Aug. 6, sources tell me and @JonKrawczynski.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
The Chicago Bulls are sending Tomas Satoransky, Garrett Temple and a second-round pick to New Orleans for Lonzo Ball, who's signing a four-year, $85M contract, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
16s
Free agent C Nerlens Noel is returning to the New York Knicks on a three-year, $32M contract, his agent
@GeorgeLangberg
tells ESPN. Tom Thibodeau keeps his rim protector.
Chris Haynes
@ChrisBHaynes
Restricted free agent Jarrett Allen and the Cleveland Cavaliers have reached an agreement on a five-year, $100 million extension, league sources tell @YahooSports.
With Noel, I think if they lost him, it would have been pretty difficult to replace. He had a market for his services and he's one of the better defensive bigs even with his bad hands.
With Noel, I think if they lost him, it would have been pretty difficult to replace. He had a market for his services and he's one of the better defensive bigs even with his bad hands.
Keith Smith
@KeithSmithNBA
Knicks will take about $20M off their cap space to re-sign Noel and Burks.
Still should have $30M+ left.
I believe the Knicks can go up to the cap and use their MLE for one of those contracts.
Bobby Marks
@BobbyMarks42
New York is sitting at $17M in room but that includes $15M in cap holds of Derrick Rose, Reggie Bullock and the $3.3M non guaranteed contract of Luca Vildoza.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
These are both terrible signings. Greta job last year guys, 1 year $10 million each or see you later. Noel has the worst hands in nba history he literally cannot catch and dunk an alley oop
Keith Smith
@KeithSmithNBA
Knicks will take about $20M off their cap space to re-sign Noel and Burks.
Still should have $30M+ left.
I believe the Knicks can go up to the cap and use their MLE for one of those contracts.
nah - if you operate as an under the cap team you don't have access to the MLE. They give you the room exception when you're under the cap - which is about half the MLE.
These are both terrible signings. Greta job last year guys, 1 year $10 million each or see you later. Noel has the worst hands in nba history he literally cannot catch and dunk an alley oop
Burks defends, can shoot, and can operate as a secondary ball handler when needed. That's fair value for him and an easy to move deal. Not so sure about Noel.
I don't know how anyone can be upset at the Burks signing
He was one of about two guys off the bench who capable of putting up 20 a night when the starting 5 were cold. And he did it all the time. Noel is a different story. Both contracts are moveable. I don't understand the whining.
Chris Haynes
@ChrisBHaynes
·
33s
Free agent guard Cameron Payne has agreed to re-sign with the Phoenix Suns on a three-year, $19 million deal, league sources tell
@YahooSports
.
Ian Begley
@IanBegley
·
10s
Alec Burks’ 3-year agreement with the Knicks is fully guaranteed, per SNY sources. ESPN first reported that Burks/Knicks have a 3-year, $30 million agreement.
for guys who (in my ignorance) seem to me not really 35-40 minute starting five guys you 'want' is mind blowing. I guess this is today's NBA.
Put it this way: If we signed two guys, both 35-40 minute starters, to just $10M per year in today's market, more than likely that would then mean that our team is not going to be very good.
I'm meh on the Burks and Noel deals. Both are probably worth that amount, just not sure i want the knicks to be the team to be paying it. The main concern is the Noel deal. Just don't want to be paying a backup center that much
I'm meh on the Burks and Noel deals. Both are probably worth that amount, just not sure i want the knicks to be the team to be paying it. The main concern is the Noel deal. Just don't want to be paying a backup center that much
Burks is clutch. He can defend. He can handle the point. He can score and get you 20 points. He's very versatile and valuable. I have no issue with his deal. And, as others have said, he can be a trade chip if need be.
How does Cameron Payne sign for 3 years $19 million at a position of need for us and we spend $10 per on Noel and Burks. Mitch is going to cost at least $15 now
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
35s
Duncan Robinson – host of the
@TheLongshotPod
– has agreed to a 5-year, $90M contract to stay with the Miami Heat, his agent Jason Glushon of
@GlushonSM
tells ESPN. The deal, largest ever for an undrafted player, also includes an ETO after the fourth year.
How does Cameron Payne sign for 3 years $19 million at a position of need for us and we spend $10 per on Noel and Burks. Mitch is going to cost at least $15 now
It's pretty clear that Payne took less to stay in Phoenix where he resurrected his career
IQ/Burks/Grimes are currently on the roster. You have 3 competent bench SGs? I don't buy it.
I think it is more about flexibility. Q can play the 1 and 2. Burks can handle the point and play the 2 and 3. Grimes is a 2 and 3. There is still room for Fournier if they go in that direction.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
and that's why we signed Noel. Think about it: They don't want to trade RJ, they don't want to trade IQ... Mitch is the young piece they have to pay next year who I think is going to be the piece in the deal that's coming. Not sure who the deal is for, but it's coming lol
You can find a Burks replacement on a 1 year deal. Send Orlando a 2nd round pick for Terrence Ross who has 1 year left on his deal. It’s not a hard thing to do. Why are you locking yourself into 3 years on your 7th-9th men. Horrible job by the front office. I would rather grimes play the 7th man minutes at 20 percent of the cost
You can find a Burks replacement on a 1 year deal. Send Orlando a 2nd round pick for Terrence Ross who has 1 year left on his deal. It’s not a hard thing to do. Why are you locking yourself into 3 years on your 7th-9th men. Horrible job by the front office. I would rather grimes play the 7th man minutes at 20 percent of the cost
Because as the cap goes up a Burks gets more expensive.
Nerlens Noel is going to be out starting center? That is terrible, He literally cannot catch a ball on offense and he can’t guard the bigger centers. He cannot be your starting center in the nba. Mitch is much better than Noel on both ends of the floor, mitchs team defense is really strong and the numbers back it up when he is on the floor.
How does Cameron Payne sign for 3 years $19 million at a position of need for us and we spend $10 per on Noel and Burks. Mitch is going to cost at least $15 now
You honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. Burks at $10M per is not awful. He was incredibly valuable to this team last season, even filling in at the point on occasion. He’s a much better player than you want to admit because he’s not the sexy name
You can find a Burks replacement on a 1 year deal. Send Orlando a 2nd round pick for Terrence Ross who has 1 year left on his deal. It’s not a hard thing to do. Why are you locking yourself into 3 years on your 7th-9th men. Horrible job by the front office. I would rather grimes play the 7th man minutes at 20 percent of the cost
Burks is a significantly better outside shooter than Ross is. How many guys can you get for $10M/ who shoot 42% from 3?
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
Hey KWALL! Not bad for a 'bust'.
You are a treasure, Stan…don’t ever change.
You are like an awful journeyman baseball player on an 0-800 streak that flips the bat and puffs his chest after finally getting a soft bloop single.
With AJR As cap goes up Burks goes up. The Knicks don’t need anymore Burks we have the complimentary pieces that we need with the young guys. You don’t waste 3 years on Burks, there are 30 players like Burks in the league that will sign 1 year deals when cap space runs out.
10 million for 2 bench players is not a bargain when you have active cap space. You sign those guys when your over there cap to mid level deals to fill out your roster for a championship run. The problem is Thibs thinks he can win a championship with average guys.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
Hey KWALL! Not bad for a 'bust'.
You are a treasure, Stan…don’t ever change.
You are like an awful journeyman baseball player on an 0-800 streak that flips the bat and puffs his chest after finally getting a soft bloop single.
He didn’t even hit a soft bloop single on this. Tell me exactly which team Ball has made better? Every team he’s on sucks ass, misses the playoffs and they move him
With AJR As cap goes up Burks goes up. The Knicks don’t need anymore Burks we have the complimentary pieces that we need with the young guys. You don’t waste 3 years on Burks, there are 30 players like Burks in the league that will sign 1 year deals when cap space runs out.
10 million for 2 bench players is not a bargain when you have active cap space. You sign those guys when your over there cap to mid level deals to fill out your roster for a championship run. The problem is Thibs thinks he can win a championship with average guys.
What? Next year you’d need to sign a Burks type player. Except next year he costs you $14 million.
RE: RE: Burks's minutes come at the expense of Barrett
I’m not saying he isn’t but you don’t use active cap space on Burks. Knicks aren’t winning a championship next year or getting out of the first round because they don’t have the star power. You don’t lock in Burks and noel for 3 years, you keep developing your young guys and fill 1 year contract guys and kick the cap to the following year.
Burks isn’t making or braking the Knicks season. It doesn’t matter that he is a better shooter than Ross. You just need a guy to fill the cap space for 1 year and you try again next year. So next year if we want to sign Beal we are going have to throw in a protected first to trade Noel and Burks to a team with cap space. It’s just dumb cap management.
I’m not saying he isn’t but you don’t use active cap space on Burks. Knicks aren’t winning a championship next year or getting out of the first round because they don’t have the star power. You don’t lock in Burks and noel for 3 years, you keep developing your young guys and fill 1 year contract guys and kick the cap to the following year.
Burks isn’t making or braking the Knicks season. It doesn’t matter that he is a better shooter than Ross. You just need a guy to fill the cap space for 1 year and you try again next year. So next year if we want to sign Beal we are going have to throw in a protected first to trade Noel and Burks to a team with cap space. It’s just dumb cap management.
In all likelihood if they’re signing Beal it’s in a sign and trade and they move those two deals with a second rounder.
You’d rather have a worse shooter because he has a one year deal? Miami just got Lowry with zero cap space for $30 mill a year. We’ll be fine.
don't see Fournier as someone mentioned earlier...roster might be very very similar to last year. Hahn is right..doesn't appear there is tons of creativity with the FO. Time will tell.
don't see Fournier as someone mentioned earlier...roster might be very very similar to last year. Hahn is right..doesn't appear there is tons of creativity with the FO. Time will tell.
Guessing their attention right now is towards Dinwiddie and/or DeRozan but just a guess.
Not true you hope you aren’t wasting money on a Burks next year and your maxing out Beal or lavine. Then grimes or McBride are your new Burks on a cheap contracts and Then you sign whatever Burks type player that is available for your mini MLE. With Burks and noel eating up cap space now you have to add a pick to trade then to get cap room to sign the potential star. You guys say these contracts are tradeable, but you have to find a team that is willing to take on contracts with their cap space which costs a pick or to a team at the all star break with an expiring deal. Not that easy to do
Are you telling me your happy with these deals for Noel and Burks and you think it’s good use if the cap. I don’t like either deal but certainly Burks is better value then Noel. Noel deal is awful.
Not true you hope you aren’t wasting money on a Burks next year and your maxing out Beal or lavine. Then grimes or McBride are your new Burks on a cheap contracts and Then you sign whatever Burks type player that is available for your mini MLE. With Burks and noel eating up cap space now you have to add a pick to trade then to get cap room to sign the potential star. You guys say these contracts are tradeable, but you have to find a team that is willing to take on contracts with their cap space which costs a pick or to a team at the all star break with an expiring deal. Not that easy to do
$10 million for a guy who shoots 42% from 3 is not a contract you have to attach a first round pick to to move. Trust me I know.
I’m not saying he isn’t but you don’t use active cap space on Burks. Knicks aren’t winning a championship next year or getting out of the first round because they don’t have the star power. You don’t lock in Burks and noel for 3 years, you keep developing your young guys and fill 1 year contract guys and kick the cap to the following year.
Burks isn’t making or braking the Knicks season. It doesn’t matter that he is a better shooter than Ross. You just need a guy to fill the cap space for 1 year and you try again next year. So next year if we want to sign Beal we are going have to throw in a protected first to trade Noel and Burks to a team with cap space. It’s just dumb cap management.
Yeah you’re right man. You have it all figured out. Why didn’t you give Rose a call and run this idea by him? It’s obvious that as an organization these guys slept through the past couple of months and didn’t have time to think of that or do their homework on the situations at hand and what’s best for the team. They woke up this morning unprepared and just said “hey, fuck it. Let’s just sign Burks and Noel to 3 years deals and call it a day!”.
Not true you hope you aren’t wasting money on a Burks next year and your maxing out Beal or lavine. Then grimes or McBride are your new Burks on a cheap contracts and Then you sign whatever Burks type player that is available for your mini MLE. With Burks and noel eating up cap space now you have to add a pick to trade then to get cap room to sign the potential star. You guys say these contracts are tradeable, but you have to find a team that is willing to take on contracts with their cap space which costs a pick or to a team at the all star break with an expiring deal. Not that easy to do
$10 million for a guy who shoots 42% from 3 is not a contract you have to attach a first round pick to to move. Trust me I know.
To get rid of Noel and Burks as a combined package.
BigBlueshock - yes it appears that the front office said f it let’s sign 2 back up guys to $20 million. Obviously these deals are right above the MLE, so it entices these guys to stay. Sometimes you have to let guys go, there are plenty of noel’s and Burks out there to have on 1 year deals
Steve Popper
@StevePopper
·
8m
Heard since draft night that Knicks were not standing pat - so even though we're 57 minutes in, not thinking they are done tonight (or, you know, in the period that deals are actually supposed to happen).
To get rid of Noel and Burks as a combined package.
BigBlueshock - yes it appears that the front office said f it let’s sign 2 back up guys to $20 million. Obviously these deals are right above the MLE, so it entices these guys to stay. Sometimes you have to let guys go, there are plenty of noel’s and Burks out there to have on 1 year deals
I’m telling you no it won’t. I work in basketball.
14 per for 3 years from the Spurs. The Burks deal is perfectly fine. You dont get 20-25 minute players for less then that these days. Im less excited bout Noel, but if its precursor to a Mitch trade that changes things. Or if its not full guaranteed that def changes things. Look i mean i would not have been happy if we shelled out 90 mill to lowry or 80 to Duncan or even 120 to Paul.
To get rid of Noel and Burks as a combined package.
BigBlueshock - yes it appears that the front office said f it let’s sign 2 back up guys to $20 million. Obviously these deals are right above the MLE, so it entices these guys to stay. Sometimes you have to let guys go, there are plenty of noel’s and Burks out there to have on 1 year deals
No, there are not. You don’t think Rose and company have done their homework? I think they have earned the right for us to be a bit patient to see what their plan is. Burks and Noel are much better players than you want to admit, that’s the problem here. And we don’t know yet what the next moves are, so why the instant freak out? We are one hour into free agency, lol. Do you know they don’t have trades lined up?
Maybe their plan sucks. We will find out. But I just think freaking out with absolutely no context to their thinking is stupid, and a waste of energy
the cap, MLE, max, etc.... goes up fans are not adjusting their expectations. When the MLE was 6 mill it seemed easily to understand then 10. If we signed burks or Noel for the MLE a few years back people woudl have been fine, its the same thing now. Sure there will be deals at the end of free agency, maybe we should wait it out, but im not upset bout these deals. Id rather pay burks 3/30 then Moe Harkless 3/15 or whatever he just got.
That’s the problem I don’t want them to play a lot of minutes.
AJR - that’s fine it will cost something. And if Knicks have a shot at a big free agent the cost will be higher because they will be desperate to trade those guys for caproom.
Not sure where this salary cap explosion talk is coming from:
21-22 - $112 million
22-23 - $115.7 million
23-24 - $119.2 million
I would t consider that to be an explosion. Check your facts before you make statements like that.
That’s the problem I don’t want them to play a lot of minutes.
AJR - that’s fine it will cost something. And if Knicks have a shot at a big free agent the cost will be higher because they will be desperate to trade those guys for caproom.
Not sure where this salary cap explosion talk is coming from:
21-22 - $112 million
22-23 - $115.7 million
23-24 - $119.2 million
I would t consider that to be an explosion. Check your facts before you make statements like that.
Ok, we get it. Can you stop bitching on this thread about the same thing?
Dinwiddie, Fournier, and Rose, and call it a day. As long as the years and money and such are all right. That’s a good team right there. Not even sure what that looks like from a cap perspective but I say don’t make any trades, we have a lot of assets, picks, contracts to match, etc. to maybe make a deal at the deadline this year for a star
any cap number at that far out is a projectection...
for instance NBA already said 2022-23 will be 119 where as the numbers you got from im guessing a bleacher report article (i saw the same one) from 2020 said that 23-24 would be 119.
No one has answered my question and it leads me to believe that you guys just like going against everything I write. Is there anyone out there rhat can say they are happy with these 2 signings. And I’m not looking for the yea there fine because they are going to trade them or they aren’t done. That stuff is unpredictable.
No one has answered my question and it leads me to believe that you guys just like going against everything I write. Is there anyone out there rhat can say they are happy with these 2 signings. And I’m not looking for the yea there fine because they are going to trade them or they aren’t done. That stuff is unpredictable.
I don't know. Shall we conduct a poll of whether fanbases around the league are over the moon over bench signings?
do we have to absolutely love them because you absolutely hate them? Not trying to be a jerk, but the issue is you are acting like they handed out the worst deals ever. Most of just think they are fine, im not happy or upset about them. And until we see the whole offseason its hard to get to upset. There isnt one move made by anyone that if we made it id be thrilled. At least i dont think there is. The good players (paul, lowry, duncan i guess, etc..) got massive deals that i didnt want to pay.
Bullock, Rose, Burks and Noel were all key rotation players on a 4 seed. They weren’t going to just let all of those guys walk and fill in the gaps with guys drafted late in the draft.
Burks contract is very reasonable, look at what other wing players have been getting. He shoots over 40% from 3, plays defense and can play both guard positions.
The Noel deal is less appealing, but it’s probably a signal that they’d rather keep Noel at that number rather than pay Mitch Robinson anywhere near what Jarrett Allen got long term. Mitch is probably on his way out, and if that’s the case then Noel at 10 per is a solid signing for the minutes he’s going to play.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
1m
Free agent Zach Collins has agreed to a three-year, $22M deal with the Spurs, his agent Mark Bartelstein of
@PrioritySports tells ESPN.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
1m
Free agent Zach Collins has agreed to a three-year, $22M deal with the Spurs, his agent Mark Bartelstein of
@PrioritySports tells ESPN.
Would much rather pay 3 for 60 combined for Burks and Noel than the money San Antonio is paying for McDermott and Collins
I answered this before. I'm perfectly fine with the Burks deal
as of now and eh on the Noel deal. However, looking at any moves in a vacuum is somewhat pointless. This group has a plan. Just because we don't see it or understand it doesn't mean they don't have one. What if we signed Noel as part of a precursor to another trade to acquire a star and that team could sign Noel outright? There are so many ways this could go so getting too high or too low is pointless right now.
We also have two posters that have been on point with their information and have earned the right to say what they say. Carl is one and stated in the other thread and this one that they have been working on trades with three separate teams. Let's see where the chips fall.
RE: So did you want them to not bring anyone back?
Bullock, Rose, Burks and Noel were all key rotation players on a 4 seed. They weren’t going to just let all of those guys walk and fill in the gaps with guys drafted late in the draft.
Burks contract is very reasonable, look at what other wing players have been getting. He shoots over 40% from 3, plays defense and can play both guard positions.
The Noel deal is less appealing, but it’s probably a signal that they’d rather keep Noel at that number rather than pay Mitch Robinson anywhere near what Jarrett Allen got long term. Mitch is probably on his way out, and if that’s the case then Noel at 10 per is a solid signing for the minutes he’s going to play.
^This. I leave it to others who know more about the cap, but the consensus seems to be that this is the going rate for players like Burks and Nerlens. I assume the guarantee for Burks means that he likely had other suitors. My recollection is that Nerlens also did. The Knicks were never going to replace all of their players with FAs or second round draft picks.
No one has answered my question and it leads me to believe that you guys just like going against everything I write. Is there anyone out there rhat can say they are happy with these 2 signings. And I’m not looking for the yea there fine because they are going to trade them or they aren’t done. That stuff is unpredictable.
If Noel and Burks get traded as part of a bigger deal then I will be more than happy, but don’t players have to wait until December to be traded?
If these 2 end up on this roster then this will be very disappointing
Disappointing? Lol. You should probably just give up at this point. Having these two guys, who were huge contributors to the team last season being on the team would be disappointing? I honestly don’t think you have a clue on market value.
As far as the December thing, I’m not sure about that but how are sign and trades getting done immediately if they can’t be traded until December?
but I’m feeling the same as most here - no issue at all with Burks, but was kinda hoping they’d move on from Nerlens. Those are bench player rates for two bench players though - not a huge problem. Obviously we were all hoping for a splash that likely isn’t happening.
Also, kudos to Anita Marks for talking baseball with some failed former Marlins executive during the start of NBA free agency - awesome programming choice there on ESPN, which pays a fortune for NBA games.
RE: Ramona Shelbourne On The Jump saying the Knicks
but the Noel and Burks signing are great deals for players of there production last year. I’m not sure if some here are aware of the market right now but those are very good deals. Another shooter and a point guard and we’re good. This front office is very quite and have there own timeline and philosophy. For those causal NBA watchers I’m sure it’s frustrating but to us diehard Knicks fans, we can’t complain because we finally have a winning team.
RE: RE: Ramona Shelbourne On The Jump saying the Knicks
I’m not being a wise ass I was just curious on the rules I thought free agents couldn’t be traded until December so to me that means these guys won’t be traded.
I’m not being a wise ass I was just curious on the rules I thought free agents couldn’t be traded until December so to me that means these guys won’t be traded.
I didn’t think you were being a wise ass. I said I don’t know anything about that rule, so maybe I’m ignorant but we see sign and trades every year. Player signs a contract with current team with the intention of being traded. And they don’t wait until December. So I guess I’m just curious where you get the December thing from?
Two thoughts - Knicks may have bigger plans for Vildoza than we know. Also, since Thibs loves Taj, and I am pretty sure Sims will make the team, a trade involving Mitch still seems like a possibility here.
RE: RE: Knicks probably have around 10 million left
And hopefully IQ can take some minutes. Rose will not be able to hold up all season if he's getting more than 24-28 min per game every game. But honestly? I'll just go ahead and say it. Rose is worth that money for 24-28 minutes. That's rare to say but the dude was that good last year. He was quietly our MVP last year. If you look at the Knicks record with and without him, their winning % was literally night and day. 1st in the East with him vs. 11th in the East without him.
On any big ticket FA's coming here any time soon. He's clearly girding up for a big trade or 2, maybe not soon but somewhere in the next year or so. He has amassed draft picks, young players and movable deals.
If Noel and Burks get traded as part of a bigger deal then I will be more than happy, but don’t players have to wait until December to be traded?
If these 2 end up on this roster then this will be very disappointing
Disappointing? Lol. You should probably just give up at this point. Having these two guys, who were huge contributors to the team last season being on the team would be disappointing? I honestly don’t think you have a clue on market value.
As far as the December thing, I’m not sure about that but how are sign and trades getting done immediately if they can’t be traded until December?
because they're being signed as part of a sign-and-trade. It's all the same transation. When you just sign as a regular free agent, you can't be traded right away.
On any big ticket FA's coming here any time soon. He's clearly girding up for a big trade or 2, maybe not soon but somewhere in the next year or so. He has amassed draft picks, young players and movable deals.
They're gearing up for 2024 when his guys become available (Booker and Towns). Although I for one am tired of this game.
But I wouldn't sleep on McBride as the backup point either.
I'm not expecting anything from Luca.
adam-- I agree I like McBride. My thinking is that since McBride is a rookie it might take him until a little into the season to get real minutes. The thing about guys like Luca who come over from Europe is they often don't have a super high ceiling but they often at least have a decent floor just based on being fundamentally sound, smart, and experienced. If we sign no one else I could see Luca getting minutes opening day just because he actually has professional experience. I think McBride can overtake him over the course of the season. I'm not gonna sleep on Luca though-- maybe simply because I keep getting flashes of Pablo Prigioni when I think of him haha
Rose, Burks, Noel and Fournier all on 3 year deals.
Obviously the Knicks were very happy with the team last year
I am happy with today, they rewarded the players that carried them into the playoffs and added a solid shooter that average 18 a game.
Let's hope the kids keep developing and build for the future.
But I wouldn't sleep on McBride as the backup point either.
I'm not expecting anything from Luca.
adam-- I agree I like McBride. My thinking is that since McBride is a rookie it might take him until a little into the season to get real minutes. The thing about guys like Luca who come over from Europe is they often don't have a super high ceiling but they often at least have a decent floor just based on being fundamentally sound, smart, and experienced. If we sign no one else I could see Luca getting minutes opening day just because he actually has professional experience. I think McBride can overtake him over the course of the season. I'm not gonna sleep on Luca though-- maybe simply because I keep getting flashes of Pablo Prigioni when I think of him haha
run. If they hit on their picks like they have the past few years, it's only a matter of time. If RJ, Mitch, or IQ takes a huge leap like Randle, it may be faster than you think.
year of patching it together at PG. Hopefully Vildoza and/or Quickley can give them good minutes. They never had a chance at Paul and I woudln't have gone near Lowery at that number he got - but I think pursuing Dinwiddie or Graham would have been worthwhile. There's been so many missed opportunities at that position - it's getting old.
we got clarity on the Rose situation. If their cap hold for him is lower than what they paid I think they can go over the cap for him since they have early bird rights.
I.e. they have more room to bring on another player.
that they can use in a trade if needed, they have their draft picks, they have young guys to develop, are they a championship contender? no but i think they are a playoff team..
year of patching it together at PG. Hopefully Vildoza and/or Quickley can give them good minutes. They never had a chance at Paul and I woudln't have gone near Lowery at that number he got - but I think pursuing Dinwiddie or Graham would have been worthwhile. There's been so many missed opportunities at that position - it's getting old.
Fournier and Burks can both create in ways Payton and Bullock couldn't. I think it'll be a real team effort on the offensive end.
year of patching it together at PG. Hopefully Vildoza and/or Quickley can give them good minutes. They never had a chance at Paul and I woudln't have gone near Lowery at that number he got - but I think pursuing Dinwiddie or Graham would have been worthwhile. There's been so many missed opportunities at that position - it's getting old.
Fournier and Burks can both create in ways Payton and Bullock couldn't. I think it'll be a real team effort on the offensive end.
Agreed. And we should see more ball movement leading to a more efficient and productive offense.
Hitting free agency over the next 3 years, so they locked up vets that fit this system. I think they still have the assets to trade for a superstar, if one hits the market.
we got clarity on the Rose situation. If their cap hold for him is lower than what they paid I think they can go over the cap for him since they have early bird rights.
I.e. they have more room to bring on another player.
@NYPost_Berman
·
17s
Knicks deal with Derrick Rose of 3 years, $43 million is cap space. Had a chance to use his early bird rights but Rose’s value was higher. Roll it back. Cap room gone.
Welp, nevermind. He's the starter pending a trade.
agreed...Fournier is a nice player and will certainly help. Rose was real solid last year but might have gone in a different direction w/the PG spot. There were various options but appears we will run back the same team
non-guaranteed money in the Rose and Noel deals. Especially Rose. He was good this year but there's a reason he was playing on much smaller contracts the last few years.
Mike Vorkunov
@MikeVorkunov
·
1m
The cap virtuoso
@johnhollinger
tells me they have about $8 mil left if they renounce the rights to Reggie Bullock and they cut Luca Vildoza. Bullock is reportedly going to Dallas. Knicks announced Vildoza as part of their Summer League roster this afternoon
Mike Vorkunov
@MikeVorkunov
·
1m
The cap virtuoso
@johnhollinger
tells me they have about $8 mil left if they renounce the rights to Reggie Bullock and they cut Luca Vildoza. Bullock is reportedly going to Dallas. Knicks announced Vildoza as part of their Summer League roster this afternoon
I'd be so much happier if they gave that 8 mil to Cam Payne in a 3 year 24 mil deal, which is 25% more than he got.
I’m a big fan of Burks and think that is a good deal. I also understand bringing back a good team and rewarding the contributors.
But this offseason definitely puts a different scope on last season and how they chose to utilize their cap space. That was a mistake.
Lastly the idea of preserving cap space for 2024 is outrageous. Enough with that it’s a joke.
So you want them to give out 4 year deals?
I want them and everyone to stop talking about pipedreams. Remember how heralded the 2021 FA class was 18 months ago? And then 2022 and going back to 2020 etc. Trust me if Booker or one of the other stars in 2024 want to be a Knick, they will be. It’s the current state of the NBA.
I would have been far more aggressive on the younger RFA and just younger free agents but that I still don’t hate the signings. The Fournier and Rose deals are overpays though.
Rose still has plenty to prove in my book. We will see.
non-guaranteed money in the Rose and Noel deals. Especially Rose. He was good this year but there's a reason he was playing on much smaller contracts the last few years.
I agree with this. I was fine with Burks and Noel, but Rose scares me. There’s a reason they said he could only play around 20 minutes per game when he got here. And he hasn’t gotten younger that I know about. Oh well, not much we can do about it I guess. Hope for the best!
I’m a big fan of Burks and think that is a good deal. I also understand bringing back a good team and rewarding the contributors.
But this offseason definitely puts a different scope on last season and how they chose to utilize their cap space. That was a mistake.
Lastly the idea of preserving cap space for 2024 is outrageous. Enough with that it’s a joke.
So you want them to give out 4 year deals?
I want them and everyone to stop talking about pipedreams. Remember how heralded the 2021 FA class was 18 months ago? And then 2022 and going back to 2020 etc. Trust me if Booker or one of the other stars in 2024 want to be a Knick, they will be. It’s the current state of the NBA.
I would have been far more aggressive on the younger RFA and just younger free agents but that I still don’t hate the signings. The Fournier and Rose deals are overpays though.
Rose still has plenty to prove in my book. We will see.
Isn't that what they are doing? They are spending now and not saying next year. However, they are being smart with these contracts all expiring at the same time. So, that isn't a pipedream. That's reality. Nobody is saying we are all or nothing on FA in 2024 just that we are in position for that year.
extensions has gotten so crazy that there's almost too much risk for some of these guys to wait to enter unrestricted free agency. So many of the league's best players have never really been unrestricted free agents and entered the marketplace willing to switch teams.
Maybe 20+ years of no shot a championship and now a few more. I get it there wasn’t much they could do they had cap space ina year with no stars. And being a 5-8 seed the next few years is certainly better then every year before last year, but I really think the overachieved last year and caught teams by surprise and then got confident. I think Boston and Miami will be improved this year snd there is always a surprise team that will be good. I don’t mind the Fournier and rose signings, not exciting by not bad, but basically the same team + Fournier, hopefully a healthy Mitch and hopefully improvements from the young guys. I think putting al of that together it will still be hard to be a 4 seed again.
Atlanta, nets, bucks, Sixers and heat are def a big step above knicks.
I scream no, I can’t stand Schroeder. Adding Schroeder to the current roster isn’t adding any wins they already have plenty of Schroeder type talents on the roster.
I think overall are in good place and have had a decent free agency. But my criticism is persevering cap space last year on passing on free agents, not taking bad deals for picks etc and now seeing what that cap space returned in is underwhelming. Along with the draft night moves to increase cap space.
Wish they were in on Ball, Graham, Payne etc. I have serious doubts about Rose being a starter but we will see.
I do like the Burks and Noel signings. Hoping they bring back Bullock too.
Maybe 20+ years of no shot a championship and now a few more. I get it there wasn’t much they could do they had cap space ina year with no stars. And being a 5-8 seed the next few years is certainly better then every year before last year, but I really think the overachieved last year and caught teams by surprise and then got confident. I think Boston and Miami will be improved this year snd there is always a surprise team that will be good. I don’t mind the Fournier and rose signings, not exciting by not bad, but basically the same team + Fournier, hopefully a healthy Mitch and hopefully improvements from the young guys. I think putting al of that together it will still be hard to be a 4 seed again.
Atlanta, nets, bucks, Sixers and heat are def a big step above knicks.
You are also assuming none of the Knicks young players get better..
The one thing I'm really frustrated with his the lack of ability
Maybe 20+ years of no shot a championship and now a few more. I get it there wasn’t much they could do they had cap space ina year with no stars. And being a 5-8 seed the next few years is certainly better then every year before last year, but I really think the overachieved last year and caught teams by surprise and then got confident. I think Boston and Miami will be improved this year snd there is always a surprise team that will be good. I don’t mind the Fournier and rose signings, not exciting by not bad, but basically the same team + Fournier, hopefully a healthy Mitch and hopefully improvements from the young guys. I think putting al of that together it will still be hard to be a 4 seed again.
Atlanta, nets, bucks, Sixers and heat are def a big step above knicks.
I don't think you are being fair to what the Knicks did last year. They weren't a fluke. With that said, yes, we are fair away from the top teams and, yes, a team like Miami will be better. Our strength will be in our depth and team play. We still need a star to make Randle the second banana but I feel better that we are getting closer.
Reggie was gonna chase every last dollar - and rightfully so. He's been in the league for a long time and never made more than $4.2. This contract more than doubles his career earnings.
Noel is not a starting center. We need Mitch and we still don’t have a starting PG, rose is an excellent backup/spot starter. If we had a real starting PG mitch would get 15 points easily every night.
Bullock can’t make lay ups, he is strictly catch and shoot 3 or pump fake dribble in long 2 point shot. That’s all he has and agree, he isa decent defender but no where near Frank. Which by the way I hope Frank is back.
at least a little interesting that they chose Burks over Bullock for nearly identical money.
I don't think so. Burks does much more. Bullock is strictly a catch and shoot guy on offense and I think his defense is overrated.
Maybe, but Bullock started over Burks.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just interesting.
And Payton started over Rose and IQ. Burks is more of a 3 and Bullock a 2 imo and I think that is why. Plus, Payton drives to the hoop, Randle handles the ball, RJ can drive and hang back. That starting unit needed a guy to stretch the defense. Burks with the second unit was more flexible. He was another guy that could facilitate, especially before we got Rose.
Noel is not a starting center. We need Mitch and we still don’t have a starting PG, rose is an excellent backup/spot starter. If we had a real starting PG mitch would get 15 points easily every night.
He’s going to want more money than he’s worth in a year and seems like there’s some maturity stuff going on there.
the second person who said Burks is a 3. He's 6'5 and is a ball handler. He's more 1/2 than 2/3.
He's not a PG. He can't guard the position like he can the 3 but if depends on matchups. Why do you keep saying he is a 1/2? He played the 2/3 all year.
Played a lot of PG in the 4th quarter down the stretch.
If noels is worth $10 million, then Mitch has to easily be worth $15 million. To me when healthy mitch is twice the player Noel is, I know everyone gets excited about blocks but Noel struggled as an on the ball defender again at bigger centers and is awful on offenses he makes mitch look like karl Malone on offense.
but he was the primary ball handler for that bench unit, often over Rose.
It isn't semantics. You are trying to call him a 1. He's not. Just because Randle handles the ball doesn't mean he is a 1. Burks wasn't the primary ball handler with the second unit. He handled if occasionally and I was calling for him to do it more to get Payton's minutes down and when we had injuries/covid. He has the ability to handle the ball which is why I like him on this team. I have been saying for two years now we need more PG/ball handlers not less. Just because IQ can be a point doesn't mean he should. There were two different IQs this year and when his role changed his shot was way off. He had a bad slump and for a good portion of that Burks was not handling the ball until about 3 quarters of the way through the season.
year of patching it together at PG. Hopefully Vildoza and/or Quickley can give them good minutes. They never had a chance at Paul and I woudln't have gone near Lowery at that number he got - but I think pursuing Dinwiddie or Graham would have been worthwhile. There's been so many missed opportunities at that position - it's getting old.
I’m Still holding out hope there’s a trade in the works. Maybe the Knicks wanted to try FA first and if it fell through they would find that PG via trade. Or maybe I’m nuts... I guess they could just be happy with Rose and continue to develop IQ. Maybe they want to play IQ big minutes but I’d feel a lot better about the backcourt if one more playmaking guard was brought in. I wanted a shooter and playmaker/ facilitator this offseason.
but he was the primary ball handler for that bench unit, often over Rose.
It isn't semantics. You are trying to call him a 1. He's not. Just because Randle handles the ball doesn't mean he is a 1. Burks wasn't the primary ball handler with the second unit. He handled if occasionally and I was calling for him to do it more to get Payton's minutes down and when we had injuries/covid. He has the ability to handle the ball which is why I like him on this team. I have been saying for two years now we need more PG/ball handlers not less. Just because IQ can be a point doesn't mean he should. There were two different IQs this year and when his role changed his shot was way off. He had a bad slump and for a good portion of that Burks was not handling the ball until about 3 quarters of the way through the season.
Calling him a 1/2 or a 2/3 is absolutely semantics. It's all fluid.
He functions as a PG on the team. You take both stances in your post so I'm really not sure where you're landing on this issue but it feels like you're debating on this just for the sake of debating.
Burks is a better offensive player, Bullock is a better defensive player. It'll be interesting to see who is more valuable since they're a nearly identical age and salary hit. That was my only (fairly innocuous) point lol.
To play Obi and Randle at the same time for a couple of minutes here and there. Make teams adapt to us. Also, Randle doesn't need to play 40 min per night. It would also benefit this team to not be so reliant on him so we don't have another Hawks situation again. When they shut Randle down we had no answer for 5 games.
Sources: Restricted free agent Devonte' Graham is signing with the Pelicans via sign-and-trade, with New Orleans sending first-round pick to Charlotte.
but he was the primary ball handler for that bench unit, often over Rose.
It isn't semantics. You are trying to call him a 1. He's not. Just because Randle handles the ball doesn't mean he is a 1. Burks wasn't the primary ball handler with the second unit. He handled if occasionally and I was calling for him to do it more to get Payton's minutes down and when we had injuries/covid. He has the ability to handle the ball which is why I like him on this team. I have been saying for two years now we need more PG/ball handlers not less. Just because IQ can be a point doesn't mean he should. There were two different IQs this year and when his role changed his shot was way off. He had a bad slump and for a good portion of that Burks was not handling the ball until about 3 quarters of the way through the season.
Calling him a 1/2 or a 2/3 is absolutely semantics. It's all fluid.
He functions as a PG on the team. You take both stances in your post so I'm really not sure where you're landing on this issue but it feels like you're debating on this just for the sake of debating.
Burks is a better offensive player, Bullock is a better defensive player. It'll be interesting to see who is more valuable since they're a nearly identical age and salary hit. That was my only (fairly innocuous) point lol.
You were arguing with me and when others chimed in he wasn't a 1 your response was it is just semantics. Lol. If it was just semantics then why argue in the first place. Handling the ball on offense does not mean you are playing the 1. He wasn't guarding PGs. As others have said, he was always out there with guys like Rose and IQ.
What makes you think Luca will start? I’m not even convinced he’ll be on the roster at the start of the season
Just my guess. Rose will have to come off the bench to conserve his legs. McBride is not ready. IQ is not really a PG.
Rose is your starting PG and McBride/Quickley will get the remaining minutes.
I think Quickley will get more minutes in year 2.
Starting 5 will be
Randle, Robinson, Fournier, RJ and Rose.
2nd unit of Burks, Obi, Quickley, Grimes and Noel.
Rose has average about 50 games a season 28 minutes per the last 3 but he is far removed from the ACL and I think he will get more games but still 28 minutes per.
(1) is great fun to watch;
(2) will be toying with the playoffs annually going forward; and
(3) will win enough to not get in the lottery to get a true superstar but not enough to be a true challenger.
The big name free agents still don't believe/want to play here. I admire the front office, but not sure how they can get to the next level. They had the most cap space available this year and got marginally better without solving the PG issue (again). Hopefully one of the kids becomes truly special.
RE: I'd really love to see Thibs find opportunities
To play Obi and Randle at the same time for a couple of minutes here and there. Make teams adapt to us. Also, Randle doesn't need to play 40 min per night. It would also benefit this team to not be so reliant on him so we don't have another Hawks situation again. When they shut Randle down we had no answer for 5 games.
Derrick Rose is the 2nd scoring threat on this team. Randle playing 40 minutes a night is his floor.
RE: I'd really love to see Thibs find opportunities
To play Obi and Randle at the same time for a couple of minutes here and there. Make teams adapt to us. Also, Randle doesn't need to play 40 min per night. It would also benefit this team to not be so reliant on him so we don't have another Hawks situation again. When they shut Randle down we had no answer for 5 games.
Fournier’s shot creation should help here. Bullock was a black hole offensively too often last year.
Also, personally, I don't care how Bullock does. I rarely watch anyone other than the Knicks. I have lost a lot of interest in the NBA. I am a Knicks fan just because of my love for them as a kid. I am sure you will not be the only one keeping tabs on both players. If this was the NFL I'd feel the same way. In addition, Bullock will be in an ideal position playing with Luka so it really isn't fair to compare the two situations. It will happen regardless though.
RE: RE: I'd really love to see Thibs find opportunities
To play Obi and Randle at the same time for a couple of minutes here and there. Make teams adapt to us. Also, Randle doesn't need to play 40 min per night. It would also benefit this team to not be so reliant on him so we don't have another Hawks situation again. When they shut Randle down we had no answer for 5 games.
Derrick Rose is the 2nd scoring threat on this team. Randle playing 40 minutes a night is his floor.
Rose is probably their 4th scoring threat as of right now behind fournier and Rj
In comment 15320505 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
that:
(1) is great fun to watch;
(2) will be toying with the playoffs annually going forward; and
(3) will win enough to not get in the lottery to get a true superstar but not enough to be a true challenger.
The big name free agents still don't believe/want to play here. I admire the front office, but not sure how they can get to the next level. They had the most cap space available this year and got marginally better without solving the PG issue (again). Hopefully one of the kids becomes truly special.
Knicks still have the ability to trade for a star
RE: RE: I'd really love to see Thibs find opportunities
In comment 15320505 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
that:
(1) is great fun to watch;
(2) will be toying with the playoffs annually going forward; and
(3) will win enough to not get in the lottery to get a true superstar but not enough to be a true challenger.
The big name free agents still don't believe/want to play here. I admire the front office, but not sure how they can get to the next level. They had the most cap space available this year and got marginally better without solving the PG issue (again). Hopefully one of the kids becomes truly special.
Knicks still have the ability to trade for a star
Yep that's the clearly the plan here. When Dame or another top PG is available they have the pieces to make a big run at a trade.
What makes you think Luca will start? I’m not even convinced he’ll be on the roster at the start of the season
Just my guess. Rose will have to come off the bench to conserve his legs. McBride is not ready. IQ is not really a PG.
Rose is your starting PG and McBride/Quickley will get the remaining minutes.
I think Quickley will get more minutes in year 2.
Starting 5 will be
Randle, Robinson, Fournier, RJ and Rose.
2nd unit of Burks, Obi, Quickley, Grimes and Noel.
Rose has average about 50 games a season 28 minutes per the last 3 but he is far removed from the ACL and I think he will get more games but still 28 minutes per.
I agree that if Rose starts then that doesn't necessarily mean more minutes. Look at Payton he started but he was barely playing at the end of the year. I think Rose starts but that will depend on his health. With his knees is it better for him to come off the bench and play consecutively in both halves? I have no idea. I think that will be discussed. Sometimes the worst thing for players is sitting too long because that is when you start to stiffen or tighten up. Whatever is better for Rose to stay healthy is probably what they do. And, yes, IQ and someone else will get those minutes. I assume that McBride and Luca will battle it out to earn being in the rotation as of now.
I would study that film of Fournier absolutely destroying Team USA the other night and do everything possible to try to implement that here. I know that sounds like a reach, but idk, maybe he just needs to be made a clear primary scoring threat to showoff how great he can really be. And it's not like he's gonna have to be doing it all on his own-- we have Randle, Rose, Burks, and young (i.e. likely further developed/improved) Barrett, IQ, Grimes all as scoring threats as well. Maybe this is just the perfect combo of Fournier getting featured while also not having to carry a scoring load on his own to be exactly what he needs to really shine.
at least two of Burks, Noel, Rose or Bullock back and we brought back three of them. I am fine with Burks at 3 for 30 but I think we overpaid a tad for Rose and Noel. Noel and Burks are easy contracts to move but Rose at 14ish mil a year was an overpay IMO. Fournier is fine especially since the 4th year is a team option which by then if he is still producing might be a bargain with the projected cap in 4 years to be around 130ish
is there like ANYTHING we could possibly do to fit Dinwiddie in? I don't know all the tricks of the cap trade but idk... I really wish we'd somehow saved a few mill here and there to get him. He was the PG I've wanted in FA all along. I really feel like Fournier + Dinwiddie added to what we basically already had here last year could really make us dangerous. But at the moment the PG position is just too big of a question mark. It's hard for me to believe the offseason moves are done with, but I don't know what they could possibly do more other than a trade obviously. I guess a trade could still very much be in the works given all the assets and picks they have (6 1sts and 9 2nds over the next 4 drafts).
Not only was he our second best player. He was a huge leader and turned the season around with both his play and presence. If he was healthy and young he'd get twice as much.
But when teams trade super stars they don’t want players that are on 2-3 year contracts unless they are young with upside. For instance if Knicks trade for lillard, the blazers are going to be in Full on dump Mode they aren’t going to want nerlens Noel Derrick rose and Alex Burks with 2 years left on their contracts. Obviously those contracts can be moved elsewhere but it would be much easier to trade expirings.
With the current signing let’s say Portland puts lillard up for a trade, whats our offer to make the salaries work?
Fournier
Burks
Obi
Quickley
5 first rounders
If I’m Portland I don’t want Fournier and Burks for 2 more years so I guess third team gets involved
Maybe trade for Sexton, sign and trade - rose and Fournier plus 2 first rounders for Sexton. Only works if we extend
The New Orleans Pelicans are landing Charlotte restricted free agent guard Devonte Graham on a four-year, $47M contract in a sign-and-trade deal, agents Ty Sullivan and Austin Brown of @CAA_Basketball tell ESPN.
I would much rather have 26 yo Graham at 4/47 than 33 yo Rose at 3/43.
The New Orleans Pelicans are landing Charlotte restricted free agent guard Devonte Graham on a four-year, $47M contract in a sign-and-trade deal, agents Ty Sullivan and Austin Brown of @CAA_Basketball tell ESPN.
I would much rather have 26 yo Graham at 4/47 than 33 yo Rose at 3/43.
Maybe, but they had to include a first to make it happen. I also think in a vacuum Rose is the better player.
The New Orleans Pelicans are landing Charlotte restricted free agent guard Devonte Graham on a four-year, $47M contract in a sign-and-trade deal, agents Ty Sullivan and Austin Brown of @CAA_Basketball tell ESPN.
I would much rather have 26 yo Graham at 4/47 than 33 yo Rose at 3/43.
The New Orleans Pelicans are landing Charlotte restricted free agent guard Devonte Graham on a four-year, $47M contract in a sign-and-trade deal, agents Ty Sullivan and Austin Brown of @CAA_Basketball tell ESPN.
I would much rather have 26 yo Graham at 4/47 than 33 yo Rose at 3/43.
I think Rose's intangibles puts him easily over the top in that comparison.
A star isn’t coming in free agency this year or next.
These moves allow them to trade for a star without having a completely bare cupboard.
Always appreciate an insider and I did not see your track record but seems you have been wrong all along today.
Wrong about what? I confirmed the Fournier deal. Their offer to Payne was 1 year. I said I wasn’t sure about Burks and Noel but that I didn’t think it would be 3 years but I never said anything definite.
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this before— maybe the Knicks just don’t view IQ quite the same way as all of us view him? We seem to all be convinced his future is as a Lou Williams microwave offense off the bench -type combo guard, which definitely seems true, but maybe there’s potential or undeveloped skills there that the Knicks see that lead them to strongly believe IQ can take Payton’s minutes as that “starting” PG (again “starting” not necessarily meaning he’s getting the majority of the minutes necessarily, but who knows maybe they do like him for 14-20 minutes in that role). They may feel they can develop his game into one suitable for that type of role. How they use him in summer league could be very telling re: his role next season— he was extremely promising as a rookie who’s to say they don’t want to expand his responsibilities with the right coaching and development.
A star isn’t coming in free agency this year or next.
These moves allow them to trade for a star without having a completely bare cupboard.
Always appreciate an insider and I did not see your track record but seems you have been wrong all along today.
Wrong about what? I confirmed the Fournier deal. Their offer to Payne was 1 year. I said I wasn’t sure about Burks and Noel but that I didn’t think it would be 3 years but I never said anything definite.
In fact last week I even said don’t expect any big moves outside of going after Lowry because the goal is a trade.
put more pressure on Rj contonuing to improve, can he get to effecient 20ppg scorer??
Can Iq improve where he is more consistent?
can Mitch stay healthy?
What do you get from Obi?
What do you get from the rooks? summer league will be fun
No doubt. I mean the logical next leap for him as a #3 overall pick going into his 3rd year (after what we saw last season) is to make that step up as that borderline all star -caliber player. I don’t think they’re crazy to have that type of confidence in him and put that type of pressure on him. There are certainly some things we simply have to bank on happening if we want to be a contender any time soon and one of those things is RJ becoming an all star scorer someday, plain and simple.
Appreciate the info and insight you share. Thank you.
- in your opinion do you think they missed out on grabbing extra picks/ assets by utilizing unused cap space last year? Or being even more aggressive on FVV, Bog others?
- why no interest in Lonzo Ball? 4/85 seems reasonable for player his age. Why not pay more for Payne?
what do you mean they didnt value their picks? they added a future 1st, they didnt get rid of it for nothing
They had the opportunity to take a player at 19 and instead traded it for a future pick with such a high level of protection that it could vaporize into a second round pick in 2026.
Unless it's traded before then. If it is, I doubt it brings back an asset of greater value than Graham (on that contract).
what do you mean they didnt value their picks? they added a future 1st, they didnt get rid of it for nothing
They had the opportunity to take a player at 19 and instead traded it for a future pick with such a high level of protection that it could vaporize into a second round pick in 2026.
Unless it's traded before then. If it is, I doubt it brings back an asset of greater value than Graham (on that contract).
so you think a guy who averaged 15 and 5 on 37% shooting is worth that contract and a 1st?
Appreciate the info and insight you share. Thank you.
- in your opinion do you think they missed out on grabbing extra picks/ assets by utilizing unused cap space last year? Or being even more aggressive on FVV, Bog others?
- why no interest in Lonzo Ball? 4/85 seems reasonable for player his age. Why not pay more for Payne?
I think they absolutely did miss out on trying to grab assets last year but it was more of them being too picky than not trying.
From what I can tell Lonzo being more of an off ball guard was the turn off.
The offer to Payne was more on a one year than he got annually I’m not sure why they only wanted to go one.
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this before— maybe the Knicks just don’t view IQ quite the same way as all of us view him? We seem to all be convinced his future is as a Lou Williams microwave offense off the bench -type combo guard, which definitely seems true, but maybe there’s potential or undeveloped skills there that the Knicks see that lead them to strongly believe IQ can take Payton’s minutes as that “starting” PG (again “starting” not necessarily meaning he’s getting the majority of the minutes necessarily, but who knows maybe they do like him for 14-20 minutes in that role). They may feel they can develop his game into one suitable for that type of role. How they use him in summer league could be very telling re: his role next season— he was extremely promising as a rookie who’s to say they don’t want to expand his responsibilities with the right coaching and development.
I think this is an interesting point and something I've been considering too.
Don't see why IQ couldn't take a bunch of minutes at the 1 with all the ball handlers in the starting lineup.
Rose is a coach on the court for Thibs, he trusts him and he is a veteran presence for the kids.
Fournier can shoot the lights out and will take pressure off RJ and Randle.
Burks can create his own shot and we have seen he can close out a game.
RJ is developing and if he takes another step like he did from year 1 to 2 he is on the verge of being an all-star.
Robinson and Noel might be the best 1/2 rim defenders in the league. Noel came up big in big moments last year.
Randle will face less doubles with Fournier on the court. He just need to play the way he did last year
The bench is a group of dogs and have a ton of energy.
McBride is going to be big in spots with his defense and shooting.
I am excited to watch this team next year, should be a fun team.
RE: Melo “weighing interest” from Lakers and Knicks.
Grimes and/or Toppin riding the pine all year because of Melo would be the cherry on top of this clusterfuck.
I don't think Melo signs here but he shot .410 from 3 last season and was fine coming off the bench only playing 24 minutes.
He knows his role now and is not the same player he was before.
Oklahoma City Thunder guard Shai Gilgeous-Alexander has agreed to a five-year, $172 million maximum rookie contract extension, his agent Thaddeus Foucher of @Wasserman tells ESPN.
Oklahoma City Thunder guard Shai Gilgeous-Alexander has agreed to a five-year, $172 million maximum rookie contract extension, his agent Thaddeus Foucher of @Wasserman tells ESPN.
Rose is a coach on the court for Thibs, he trusts him and he is a veteran presence for the kids.
Fournier can shoot the lights out and will take pressure off RJ and Randle.
Burks can create his own shot and we have seen he can close out a game.
RJ is developing and if he takes another step like he did from year 1 to 2 he is on the verge of being an all-star.
Robinson and Noel might be the best 1/2 rim defenders in the league. Noel came up big in big moments last year.
Randle will face less doubles with Fournier on the court. He just need to play the way he did last year
The bench is a group of dogs and have a ton of energy.
McBride is going to be big in spots with his defense and shooting.
I am excited to watch this team next year, should be a fun team.
than bringing back 3 guys and adding Fournier, but splashy/new is not always the right move. I think there is some risk in the Rose contract, but I'm generally content. We have a young team that should compete for a playoff spot in the 5 through 8 range. If RJ or someone else makes a leap, we could be even better than that.
This season's Knicks aren't much different from last season's team
Oklahoma City Thunder guard Shai Gilgeous-Alexander has agreed to a five-year, $172 million maximum rookie contract extension, his agent Thaddeus Foucher of @Wasserman tells ESPN.
If Rose came out of his cage to explain his strategy. Because right now, there does not appear to be any grand strategy.
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
Julius Randle is 26/27 years old.
Barrett and Quickley are 21 years old.
They just played their first postseason games ever. If you want to grow a team, this is what it looks like. Learning how to play and win in playoff games is the hard part.
I think Rose's intangibles puts him easily over the top in that comparison.
You're a good fan and we'll see.
Rose's intangibles didn't count for much against the Hawks as the Knicks were being exposed.
And his body is a major question mark.
The bigger issue in the hawks series was the fact that Noel got destroyed by Capela and that they had no one other than rose who could create their own shot. Fournier (unlike bullock) can do that.
If the Knicks don't add a point guard, I'm interested in seeing who
gets the minutes when Rose is on the bench. Rose will soon be 33. IQ and McBride seem to be the main candidates, but it's very possible the Knicks will add someone.
-IQ, Barrett and Obi should all be markedly better.
-Replacing any minutes that Payton played is just great.
-There is a lot to like about Grimes and McBride.
Concerns:
-As has been the case for much of my life (I'm 50), there STILL isn't a viable lead guard.
-Contracts to historically fragile players Rose, Noel, Burks are too long (3 years each). I would have preferred Rishaun Holmes over Noel and Cam Payne over Rose.
Not much you can do when Cam Payne signs a discount deal
If Rose came out of his cage to explain his strategy. Because right now, there does not appear to be any grand strategy.
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
When people say "NY fans can't support a rebuild" this is what they mean.
If you can't see what the Knicks are trying to do here, I don't know what to say. They are so obviously retaining assets and marginally improving the team while waiting for the next star to force his way out of his current team. Everything they did in the last few days makes that painfully obvious.
They kept the core from the first successful season in 8 years together, added Fournier, pushed some of their draft assets into a future draft so they remain available in future deals. They're waiting for a franchise changer to be available. All 4 players they drafted this year would have some value as add ins on a trade for a big name. There's more young talent on this team than I can remember.
This front office is patient. Too patient for some fans, it seems :)
If Rose came out of his cage to explain his strategy. Because right now, there does not appear to be any grand strategy.
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
So tou assume Rj and Iq do not get better at all?
You assume Randle wont get better?
You assume none of the rookies will contribute?
You dont think jist getting rid of Payton is an upgrade?
You dont think adding an 18ppg player wont help this team?
Yeah I don’t understand this. Pelicans tanked and still stink with Zion so what’s the point of always picking towards the top? To maybe get lucky on a generational player?
Knicks are doing this right. Find guys that play well together, get playoff experience, and coach up the young guys to move the needle. Keeping some flexibility to jump on a trade in the process.
Other than that you are just rooting for blind luck with the draft which is what I’d call “NBA Hell”.
think about it this way, Knicks were a 4 seed with the worst point guard in yhe NBA starting and a shooting guard who did nothing but spot up..
The point guard position is instantly better the second elfrid is gone..
The shooting guard position you added a guy who can create for himself and others, shoot the 3 just as well if not better than Bullock and can score at all 3 levels..He can literally carry you for a game if needed..
The team is going to be better than last years and do you notice which position they didnt sign anyone new at? yeah Point guard and which player has been rumored to may want out eventually? Dame Lillard
I think the offseason has been fine so far. I’m probably even more optimistic than other fans. But is strange that Leon just never speaks on the record. Hasn’t spoken to the media in over a year. Would be nice for the fans to hear from him for once.
look at Free Agency as some kind of reward for being fans, rather than as a method of adding to the team concept, as if we're entitled to put coins into the superstar vending machine and get a prize.
Two 10 mil per year contracts for role players, added the #2 shooting guard on the market, who is an elite 3p shooter in all the ways this team needs, not just a catch and shoot guy. Kept Rose.
This team is going to go where Randle, Barrett, and Quickly grow to take them. The gains will be made in their offseason development.
Make the Knicks a contender in the FA market that they could have gotten. I’ve told you over and over if we don’t hit on the trade market a lot of you will be disappointed. It’s that type of year.
As I've said in other posts I see where Rose is heading and the plan
And I'm ok with the off season, I'm totally on board. I just can't understand why we can't land a competent starting NBA pg. Obviously the off season is far from over and if Dame asks out that changes everything. Everything you guys say about building with the youth and Randle's development is spot on. However I'm sorry just improving the position by getting rid of Elfie is not enough. These guys need to find a solution there. It's what they get paid to do.
If Rose came out of his cage to explain his strategy. Because right now, there does not appear to be any grand strategy.
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
When people say "NY fans can't support a rebuild" this is what they mean.
If you can't see what the Knicks are trying to do here, I don't know what to say. They are so obviously retaining assets and marginally improving the team while waiting for the next star to force his way out of his current team. Everything they did in the last few days makes that painfully obvious.
They kept the core from the first successful season in 8 years together, added Fournier, pushed some of their draft assets into a future draft so they remain available in future deals. They're waiting for a franchise changer to be available. All 4 players they drafted this year would have some value as add ins on a trade for a big name. There's more young talent on this team than I can remember.
This front office is patient. Too patient for some fans, it seems :)
Fournier is a very good player and a way better shooter than anyone on last year's roster. Defense is suspect, but he should fit well offensively.
As things stand right now, the Knicks signed 3 FAs who will all come off the bench, to $35 million a year in contracts. That is usually not a winning formula.
It doesn't seem like they are going to address the PG spot, maybe IQ starts? That'd be exciting.
Shot creation was a major need for the Knicks heading into the offseason. Unfortunately, it wasn't addressed.
The Knicks FO rushed to re-sign their own players at steep prices (no discounts). I think this shows how worried they were that FAs won't come to NY. This has been an issue for a long time now and I think we forget about it every year.
The Grimes pick doesn't make a ton of sense now. He's a lower upside guy, but is more ready to play now. Is he even going to be in the rotation?
If Barrett and IQ take big steps forward, the Knicks should make the playoffs again. That'd be great.
Fournier is a very good player and a way better shooter than anyone on last year's roster. Defense is suspect, but he should fit well offensively.
As things stand right now, the Knicks signed 3 FAs who will all come off the bench, to $35 million a year in contracts. That is usually not a winning formula.
It doesn't seem like they are going to address the PG spot, maybe IQ starts? That'd be exciting.
Shot creation was a major need for the Knicks heading into the offseason. Unfortunately, it wasn't addressed.
The Knicks FO rushed to re-sign their own players at steep prices (no discounts). I think this shows how worried they were that FAs won't come to NY. This has been an issue for a long time now and I think we forget about it every year.
The Grimes pick doesn't make a ton of sense now. He's a lower upside guy, but is more ready to play now. Is he even going to be in the rotation?
If Barrett and IQ take big steps forward, the Knicks should make the playoffs again. That'd be great.
They literally resigned 2 of their best shot creators from last year and added another..
They rushed to sign their own because no one wanted to come here? who did you want them to sign?
Tying 35 mil a year into bench players is not a winning formula BUT we are an improved team talent wise from last year due to the Fournier signing and the rookies. Lets see if they can make a trade to bring in a stud or not. I know they were exploring all options. We have the draft assets plus Mitch + Obi + Quickley to maybe make a splash in the trade market.
--If Rose was signed with his Early Bird rights (175% of pervious year salary) then they can go over the cap to sign him.
--Bullock comes off the Knicks cap as he signed with Dallas
That gives them about $18m in space left with the $4.9m exception.
IF somehow, if they can sign Burks into the Mid-Level (available only to teams over the cap) after they have gone over the cap with other signings, that helps.
Anyone have any idea how much money the Knicks have left to spend?
RE: Not much you can do when Cam Payne signs a discount deal
--If Rose was signed with his Early Bird rights (175% of pervious year salary) then they can go over the cap to sign him.
--Bullock comes off the Knicks cap as he signed with Dallas
That gives them about $18m in space left with the $4.9m exception.
IF somehow, if they can sign Burks into the Mid-Level (available only to teams over the cap) after they have gone over the cap with other signings, that helps.
Anyone have any idea how much money the Knicks have left to spend?
You're not factoring in Rose's cap hold if you don't sign him yet, so that 18 number drops to 8.
They also don't have access to the midlevel if they start the offseason under the cap.
is pretty much the same as last year. They over spent 50 million in cap space giving everyone raises and exchanging Fournier for Bullock.
It's not that I am an impatient fan, I was just hoping that they would have identified a young player in FA to take a chance on, or land someone like Lowry or Paul. They obviously couldn't do that, so this became the plan. I just heard over and over that there were a ton of free agents PGs, but still we don't land one. I know FA isn't over, so I hope they can still bring in someone on a smaller deal to split time with Rose.
I will say, I think there's something to rewarding the guys that you gave one year deals to last year that excelled. I think it shows that the team can be loyal and doesn't treat free agents as disposable assets and I think that matters for the reputation of the team.
I don't expect any of the rookies to come in and have an immediate impact. I think IQ last year was an outlier because if they were really excited about Grimes, they probably would have taken him at 19.
there werent moves out there i wish they made or anything. Do i love Burks/Rose/Noel all back on 3 year deals, not really, but we havent seen if Rose/Noel are fully guaranteed have we? These arent cap killing contracts either way. THe fournier deal having a 4th year team option makes it a very fair deal for a player of his caliber.
The idea that we arent better makes no sense. The idea of building a young team is that you hope they get better. We were the 4 seed and every hope is that RJ (major jump from year 1 to 2), IQ, and Obi are better NBA players. Shit I mean who knows if Randle could be better (Ill sign up for the same!! ha). We also have subtracted elf, will have a whole season of Rose and improved our SG drastically in fournier. He is a much better NBA player then Bullock. And we still have a bunch of picks in the upcoming drafts.
Grimes still fits on any team. He plays defense and can shoot.
If he can do that at an NBA level, he'll end up making 15 Million per year and be in the league for years.
He'll get minutes with the second unit. I personally think that maybe IQ gets to play PG and the second unit is Rose and Grimes at 1 and 2. Payton played 24 minutes a game. They aren't exactly replacing Randle or RJ by letting him go. If they believe in IQ, they can probably get by with him for a few more minutes, Rose and Vildoza/McBride.
The guy that they haven't replaced yet is Taj. He played 20 minutes a game. I don't think they have pick #58 penciled in for those minutes and you can't necessarily bank on fragile Mitch and Noel to carry the whole load.
so people really wanted us to shell out 120 million to.....
38 year old Chris paul or 90 million to Lowry? Those are moves people wanted? Look i get those are big names, but Lowry is a solid PG but he is getting way up there. Paul is paul but a year and a half ago people were saying his previous contract was one of the worst in the league....
I don't think I'd be so quick to say Grimes is a low upside guy.
Grimes showed off his determination in the pre-draft process, opting to compete in two Draft Combine scrimmages after already having a pro day and near-guarantee he’d be drafted. He dominated the two scrimmages with his shooting, playmaking and defense.
Those are the primary skills he’ll be bringing to New York. Grimes is one of the better shooters of this draft, connecting on 40.3% of his threes on 8.3 (!) attempts a game. Much has been said about Grimes being a dip shooter, but it plays into his effective form: consistently has good lift, a good base, and squares up to the rim.
When you think “3-and-D” prospect, the “3” usually refers to boring catch-and-shoots out of the corner. It should be noted Grimes can nail it from nearly anywhere in nearly any way. He can spot up or curl off a double screen, and has tremendous off-ball IQ getting him in perfect spots.
With the ball, Grimes gets real interesting. He shot 42.3% on off the dribble threes, an impressive number before you even consider the degree of difficulty on these shots. He’ll hit pull-ups from beyond NBA range, contested pull-ups, and pull-ups off the pick-and-roll as a ball handler. Some moves you only see once or twice but get you excited about Grimes’s ceiling as a scorer - like a Jayson Tatum-esque side-step three.
This pull-up game extends into the deep mid-range, where Grimes can also stop on a dime to rise and fire. There could be potential for Grimes to evolve into more of a scorer from this area, given his threat to hit from deep and some sporadic promising footwork. He’ll need to improve from the in-between range first.
New York will be able to rely on Grimes as a knockdown shooter out of the gates, but his pick-and-roll and one-on-one games will be highly driven by how he develops his handle. It’s a bit on the raw side for a guard, with Grimes able to create great space when he connects on one move, but not ready to string multiple moves together. His mishandles caused a number of turnovers this past season, but if he can sharpen them up, it’ll open up a ton for him.
see Grimes as a low upside guy either. He's a plus vertical leaper (video attached below), plus shooter on a high volume, plus defender.
His handle is iffy and his passing is iffy so I don't think he'll be a shot creator, but is a poor man's Klay Thompson out of the question? Link - ( New Window )
38 year old Chris paul or 90 million to Lowry? Those are moves people wanted? Look i get those are big names, but Lowry is a solid PG but he is getting way up there. Paul is paul but a year and a half ago people were saying his previous contract was one of the worst in the league....
Yea, I specifically wanted Lowry. I didn't think Paul would get a 4th year, but he's still an elite player. Lowry was the 2nd best guy in FA at a position of need. Contracts in the NBA are not for that long, so you can always get out from them.
The contracts for Noel and Burks are ones that make me scratch my head. I'm sure they're good locker room guys, but go look at those Knicks threads before this one. People were saying that they didn't want to give Mitch 10 mil a year, and that's what Noel got. Bigs continue to be devalued around the NBA.
Burks is a nice player, but guards like him are a dime a dozen. We literally signed 2 of them off the scrap heap last year on one year deals. Most people said they didn't want him back at that price before the offseason began.
Happy Rose is back though.
Bottom line is that they're smaller deals and should be tradeable assets, so ultimately that's ok. They couldn't land any big fish so they did right by guys that played well this year. Just a little sad that they couldn't make a splash.
Not in love with what the Knicks have done this offseason.
I'd feel much better about it if they have something planned for a starting PG. Fournier is a big upgrade. Noel and Burks are valuable pieces. Rose was a must re-sign.
Make the Knicks a contender in the FA market that they could have gotten. I’ve told you over and over if we don’t hit on the trade market a lot of you will be disappointed. It’s that type of year.
I understand that the Knicks were not getting CP3 or Leonard, but this front office has to realize that some of last season's success could easily go the other way next season. Fournier is a slight upgrade in the lineup and Payton is addition but subtraction, but we will have the same issues we had in the Atlanta series. Miami has gotten better and some of the other teams could easily improve like Charlotte, Indiana, Boston, Chicago etc.
You'd have to think if the Knicks are committed to Randle and have resigned Noel, that Toppin has to be a trade chip. Any noise there?
id honestly take any of Jackson, Nunn, or Schroeder at this point...
im not a schroeder fan, but pairing him with Rose isnt a bad PG situation. I mean schroeder is like a much better elf (gets to the basket, not a great distributor, cant shoot). I just feel like Nunn/Jackson would be a better fit cause they can shoot. Nunn also has some upside still as he has only been in the league a couple years. That said MIA can still match any offer right? Or did they have to renounce?
This is the downside to overachieving in year one.
Instead of gradually building up to a fourth seed over 2-3 years and making a splash move in 2024 or something, they got to the fourth seed in year one and will have to level off for a year or two before another jump (hopefully it's a jump and not a descent).
I didn't like the Noel contract and would absolutely hate adding Melo to this group - I'm OK with everything else.
did the Knicks get slightly better without doing anything insane in free agency all the while knowing that no stars are going to be available? yes, they did.
It's not the result everyone wants, but they are a better team now than the team that played the Hawks. Baby steps I guess.
the Knicks were a below average offensive team, still got the 4 seed, and we just brought on a 17+ PPG wing who can really shoot. Drafted some 3 and D help and kept the nucleus in tact that just gave us the best Knicks season in a long time. I don't love that we aren't going to get a star this year or likely next. It is what it is.
the knicks best path to improvement at this point has been the players on the team getting better. We knew there were no stars in this FA class. I mean improvement is what we saw last year with Randle and RJ specifically. I know most on here dont consider RJ a future star, but what if he takes another step. What if he doesnt have that awful shooting start to the season and is a 40% shooter for the whole year? Randle was all nba last year, what if its not a fluke? And i def understand there is another side to that coin (RJ doesnt get hot, Randle played way over his head and reverts). But we invested a lot in a coaching staff which was praised for player development. Maybe IQ makes a leap this year. If he takes a big step he would go from maybe starter to solid starter ( i know he prolly wont start, just an example).
Knicks had the most cap space going in which set an expectation of some kind of major move. But they only had the most cap space because they had so many guys on expired 1 year deals. So they needed to spend to just round out the roster. I like the guys they resigned versus the guys they didn’t. That said, it feels very status quo coming out of what was perceived as a period of opportunity.
Still disappointed that they don’t have a proven #1 PG in a PG league. Hopefully the kids develop (I was somewhat frustrated by how IQ was used last year and wonder whether the coach will give young players the playing time to develop). That said, I love Thibs and his brand of basketball.
Time will tell. I could easily see this team underperforming last year’s team even if they make positive strides. Should be an interesting season.
I feel like the Knicks will wait out the rest of the PG market
for all we know they are working on a lillard trade after the olympics. Not saying i think they are, but we dont have all the info yet. They have been oddly quiet in the PG market. I mean the media said we were interested in guys like schroeder but obviously we werent that intersted. Dindwiddie said he didnt think the knicks were a "fit" which we know means they didnt offer him the most money. Maybe the knicks have a starting PG plan, Lillard? Sexton? One can dream, haha.
kawhi and CP were never really available. Lowry made the choice to go to the roster that was closer to winning it with the added bonus of living in south beach and no state income tax. after that, who were the options to really improve this team? we all know we needed a PG and a SG. They got one of the two best SGs available right? And after CP and Lowry, were any of the pg's really game changers? And the roster isn't done yet. lets give them time to see if a trade comes here because it sure feels like we're set up for it.
and in regards to burks/rose/noel...here's the thing there. could they have let them walk and signed some new guys for 1-year deals a few days from now? sure. but think about all the talk of culture. Do you really want to keep overturning the roster every year with new guys on 1-year deals? is that building culture? And don't you have to send a message at some point that if you kill youself for the team that they'll take care of you? We di that with three guys are actually pretty good players who fit the system and have played well in NYC.
for all we know they are working on a lillard trade after the olympics. Not saying i think they are, but we dont have all the info yet. They have been oddly quiet in the PG market. I mean the media said we were interested in guys like schroeder but obviously we werent that intersted. Dindwiddie said he didnt think the knicks were a "fit" which we know means they didnt offer him the most money. Maybe the knicks have a starting PG plan, Lillard? Sexton? One can dream, haha.
are on the moves. Obi we know doesnt have a path to major minutes and with IQ we have added so many guard. I mean if they see him as a PG and he is going to split time with Rose then sure, but it doesnt sound like the plan is for him or rose to start at PG. So you have Rose, IQ, RJ, Burks, and Fournier for the 1/2/3. Plus Grimes, Luca, and McBride. Like we signed luca the end of last year then drafted two more guard then brough in fournier and then brought back Rose an Burks. Thats a lot of Guard/Wing players
He brings in. Sexton doesn't sound like a fit from what I've read. Part of the reason why we were as good as we were last year was because of how close this team was and how hard they worked. It wasn't just talk. This team put in an insane amount of work. One bad apple spoils the bunch. I think there is a reason that Cleveland doesn't seem hellbent on retaining him and it is more than just the contract. This is all speculation on my part just from something I read but if he doesn't have that mentality to blend with this team then it isn't happening. Hell, look at Obi and Quickley and their mentality. Look at Grimes this year. Grimes played for a coach who was tough like Thibs and Grimes loves it. Look at the mentality of McBride, a kid that absolutely prides himself on defense. These guys all fit the culture Thibs wants to build. Fournier has that tough guy mentality too imo.
I really like what they have done so far. No, we aren't a finished product. I personally don't even think we will finish better in the standings this year. But Indo feel we are a better team. I feel that Atlanta and Miami will finish ahead of us and we will be in that 6th to 10th seed this year. However, I feel we will be a much more balanced team on offense and be a tough out in the playoffs than we were this past year. This is without making a major move. The key is that we are in position now to make a move. Therefore, we need to be patient and wait foe the right opportunity to come along before we pounce.
Knicks may not be a 4 seed next year. Knicks may not have the same win % next year.
We need to consider that last year wasn't the floor going forward. This is still a team under construction. They will play defense until their feet bleed and give teams hell and might not be good enough yet. Barrett needs to be a legitimate co-star for Randle, and they need to find a starting PG that does more good than harm. Once they find a PG that legit makes players around him better by drawing in a defense and creating shots for other, this team will rise.
Signing a 35 year old guy on the way out is a patch, not a fix.
in a vacuum these moves were fine (don't love 3 years on Burks or Noel given I think they are role players) but I am still waiting to be "impressed" by this FO in the sense we hear so much about them and how things are different but their moves have been nearly across the board pretty by the book and cookie cutter. I'm waiting for Leon and Co. to do something where I go "this FO is really good".
Sign me up for Frankie smokes with some of the cap space
dude give it a rest already. Frankie fucking sucks. Enough with this stupid obsession with a fringe player. Liked the pick. Wanted to see this guy get more than one chance and he did get more than one chance. He's a guy. And he's French. that's all he is. And He's done here.
in a vacuum these moves were fine (don't love 3 years on Burks or Noel given I think they are role players) but I am still waiting to be "impressed" by this FO in the sense we hear so much about them and how things are different but their moves have been nearly across the board pretty by the book and cookie cutter. I'm waiting for Leon and Co. to do something where I go "this FO is really good".
Personally, I think the biggest change is in their drafting. They're not picking names off an ESPN big board list. They have their targets and they have their evaluations and they stick to them. They draft guys that fit their ideas and how they want to play.
If their targets are gone they prioritize gathering assets for future flexibility. We may not agree with their assessments of prospects, but they're still executing a philosophy.
in a vacuum these moves were fine (don't love 3 years on Burks or Noel given I think they are role players) but I am still waiting to be "impressed" by this FO in the sense we hear so much about them and how things are different but their moves have been nearly across the board pretty by the book and cookie cutter. I'm waiting for Leon and Co. to do something where I go "this FO is really good".
Personally, I think the biggest change is in their drafting. They're not picking names off an ESPN big board list. They have their targets and they have their evaluations and they stick to them. They draft guys that fit their ideas and how they want to play.
If their targets are gone they prioritize gathering assets for future flexibility. We may not agree with their assessments of prospects, but they're still executing a philosophy.
I don't "disagree" with this but we also haven't really seen fruits of this to say "well they do draft really well". IQ looks like a very solid rotation piece and Toppin we shall see (Toppin went around where he was expected to go FWIW). I don't think I'm being hypercritical here.
I just want to see some moves, or a move where I feel some level of "this FO really knows what they are doing".
It feels like the moves yesterday could have been done by any of us "keep the guys who played well and sign Fournier"
but I don't hate it either. Hard to get worked up either way. they didn't make any trades and they didn't sign the big mega star, who wasn't really available anyway. Of course we'd (most) would have loved to see Paul signed for 3 years, but that was a pipe dream.
I do think the KNicks are better than last year. Surprised to see the take that they are the same team. Hardly. They were so bad in the backcourt last year it goes beyond words. They literally had 2 journeymen starting in the backcourt with Rose brought in late, and IQ learning the ropes as a rookie coming off the bench. Now they have Fourniere who is a solid and legit starter and IQ is a year older and Rose is back for the full year. The backcourt is better. The kids, Obi, RJB, IQ and Mitch are a year older. The team is better on paper and enters year 2 with Thibs. 50+ wins.
Still holding out hope for a trade. But if this is the finished product so be it. It's not an all in off-season but they also didn't punt on any of the kids. Thibs gets the most out of this players and player development is soaring here to heights we haven't seen in decades. Keep at it. One more year of playing it safe cannot hurt.
like to call him a Knick hater but hard to disagree with anything he says here
Quote:
Taken individually, the deals for Rose, Fournier, Noel and Burks all seemed on the high side. In particular, paying $32 over three years for a backup center (Noel) in this market feels like a reach. Fournier’s four-year, $78 million deal is both generous and long, although it does reportedly include a team option in the final year. Again, the Knicks’ focus on their current situation, and clear need for somebody besides Julius Randle who could create a shot, may have pushed them to do something that wasn’t necessarily their best long-term plan.
As for Rose, his three-year, $43 million deal didn’t use quite as much cap room as the others since it was at his Early Bird rights limit, but paying him $14 million a year until age 35 feels more like an emotional reach than a sound plan.
Oddly, New York still doesn’t have a true point guard after all this. The Knicks have just under $9 million in cap room remaining and could extend it to $11.4 million by waiving Luca Vildoza’s $3.3 million number (the league would put a cap hold of $925,259 in its place); the Knicks could also extend their room by putting little-used Kevin Knox ($5.8 million) into a sign-and-trade.
Nonetheless, as far as this year goes, the Knicks were never going to have a win-now option on the table that significantly improved their situation from a year ago. New York is looking for a megawatt star and this market just didn’t provide it, especially once Chris Paul was off the table.
What surprises me about these deals, however, is how much it handcuffs their ability to make that same move later. Factor in a max deal for Julius Randle next summer, and the Knicks took themselves out of the next two free-agent markets to keep three bench players and Evan Fournier. They could have targeted one-year deals and greatly increased their flexibility, but seemed overly welded to last year’s roster. In reality, signing different players rather than these particular ones was unlikely to dramatically shift their outlook.
New York’s approach also seems like a tacit admission that, the way the marketplace for All-Star players has evolved, whatever star New York can reel in is much more likely to arrive via trade.
Alas, New York likely did itself real harm here, too. I don’t think it’s a big secret that the Knicks are hoping Damian Lillard becomes available at some point, and have kept their draft pick powder dry to hoard pieces to trade for him when that happens. But if Portland is pushing the reset button, do you think the Blazers want three more years of Evan Fournier, or to carry eight-figure deals for Noel or Rose?
New York doesn’t have a single large expiring contact except Randle, and I doubt he’s getting traded any time soon. The Knicks still have a lot of pieces they can use to bring a team like Portland to the table – they could put together a Paul George-type package of six first-round picks (four of their own and two from other teams), Mitchell Robinson and R.J. Barrett if they really want to go bananas. But the contracts they signed are a pure negative in any deal construction, and at least one or two of them would have to be in any trade to salary-match an incoming $39.3 million deal.
in a vacuum these moves were fine (don't love 3 years on Burks or Noel given I think they are role players) but I am still waiting to be "impressed" by this FO in the sense we hear so much about them and how things are different but their moves have been nearly across the board pretty by the book and cookie cutter. I'm waiting for Leon and Co. to do something where I go "this FO is really good".
Personally, I think the biggest change is in their drafting. They're not picking names off an ESPN big board list. They have their targets and they have their evaluations and they stick to them. They draft guys that fit their ideas and how they want to play.
If their targets are gone they prioritize gathering assets for future flexibility. We may not agree with their assessments of prospects, but they're still executing a philosophy.
I don't "disagree" with this but we also haven't really seen fruits of this to say "well they do draft really well". IQ looks like a very solid rotation piece and Toppin we shall see (Toppin went around where he was expected to go FWIW). I don't think I'm being hypercritical here.
I just want to see some moves, or a move where I feel some level of "this FO really knows what they are doing".
It feels like the moves yesterday could have been done by any of us "keep the guys who played well and sign Fournier"
You can say that all three of the guys they brought back were results of "moves that show the FO knows what it's doing." They identified Burks and Noel as guys who could fill bigger roles, gave them show me deals and were proven right. They traded for DRose and he completely changed the team when he arrived.
fell to 58, so I'm obviously higher on him than I should be but watch some of the video of him staying in front of 2's, 3's and 4's. His offensive game is pretty limited but so are Mitch and Noel's. I think he could be a really solid backup 4/5 with time.
in a vacuum these moves were fine (don't love 3 years on Burks or Noel given I think they are role players) but I am still waiting to be "impressed" by this FO in the sense we hear so much about them and how things are different but their moves have been nearly across the board pretty by the book and cookie cutter. I'm waiting for Leon and Co. to do something where I go "this FO is really good".
I feel the same way. I get resigning some of these guys, but I don't know why you'd give Burks that deal when you're bringing in Fournier. Noel is alright for Mitch insurance, but Burks and Noel signings are basically running in place.
The draft signaled to me that they're accumulating assets to try to pick up star. If you're trying to preserve assets by trading that pick to the Hornets for basically nothing, picking up more 2s and trading back, it doesn't make me think that they have real conviction on anyone.
Grimes could turn out to be a player, but I would imagine if they could have traded that pick for a future first they would have done it as well.
all 3 of the players they brought back are solid NBA players. None are moving the needle where it comes to the Knicks getting to the "next level" (obviously earlier in his career Rose was better than solid). If Rose/Burks/Noel on 3 year deals are examples of this FO being especially impressive then I think our standards are pretty low. Again, I'm not being hyper critical, the moves were "fine" but not particularly impressive. Turning 1 year deals into guys you extend at 3 at age 30, soon to be 33 and Noel (27 but a backup C) seems like the bare minimum we should be hoping for.
They aren’t exciting and basically locked this team in for the next 2 years of being a 6-8 seed, which is way better than what we had prior. I am ok with Fournier and rose I guess and maybe Burks, but hate the Noel deal, $10 million for a backup center who gets a few exciting blocks a game but does nothing else well is just stupid. I won’t bring this up anymore, you all have made good points on Burks, so I guess I can accept it. I agree there was nothing that could have happened this offseason that would have been a splash unless a trade happened or we signed kawhi. Neither were viable options.
But overall I would have preferred keep the core young guys and signing whoever was left in the free agent class to one year deals and give it a go next year in free agency. These moves don’t make this team much better then last year. It’s probably a 45-48 win team max. I am sure the young guys will improve, but I will not be surprised to see Randle take a step back. He had one of those years that everything worked snd is probably his peak. He had to work so hard to make a shot there was never an easy shot. He can’t finish at the rim, the shooting percentages were good, but the shot just doesn’t look smooth snd I don’t think it’s sustainable. He is awful when double teamed and will probably see that more, he was a turnover machine when doubled last year especially in the playoffs. I know you all think Fournier will be this savior when Randle is doubled and Fournier is good, but it’s not going to be drastically better than I’ll OKC shooting he open 3’s.
There will be signings at the end of free agency that will make all of us scratch our heads and wish that the Knicks would have signed player A to a 1 year deal instead of Noel or Burks. We basically have punted on free agency next year for Beal or Lavine, and maybe they know those guys are about to re up with their current teams, but I think there are 4 guys out there that we could have signed on 1 year deals and gotten similar results to the 4 guys that we signed. I know you guys think all of these guys are easily tradeable, but it’s not that easy to just trade bench players with multi year contracts. The teams that would want these type of players are typically contenders and most of the contenders are locked into their top few players eating up most of the cap they won’t be able to make trades easily.
Knicks will be forced to extend Randle this offseason to save money if he is willing to sign, again he was great last year, but I’m not a huge fan and I don’t consider him to be a star. He can be your 3rd best if you a really good 1 and 2 that’s just how the NBA works these days. His extension will eat at more of the cap space next year. We are going to be in no mans land for awhile and I guess that better than being horrible, but it’s just not exciting to know your team has no shot to win it all.
I'm going to be critical, It's pretty disappointing we sit here with the PG situation as it is. I don't think anybody here if they were being honest would have signed for the 8/3 PG situation to be Rose/Vildoza/PG they landed 36th overall. They have to add another PG and not a Payton-level trash option. It's a flat-out failure if we go into the season with the PG situation what it is now.
I'm going to be critical, It's pretty disappointing we sit here with the PG situation as it is. I don't think anybody here if they were being honest would have signed for the 8/3 PG situation to be Rose/Vildoza/PG they landed 36th overall. They have to add another PG and not a Payton-level trash option. It's a flat-out failure if we go into the season with the PG situation what it is now.
agree with this 100%, and inlove Mcbride and think we will be clamoring for him to start by seasons end if we are in the same pg situation..
need to add a guy to take pressure off of Rose at this moment he will be playing 35 minutes a night
eliminated so Vildoza (2-9 1 assist, 1 rebound) from will presumably be coming over soon to join the summer league squad. Seems like the near-consensus among those who saw him in the Olympics was back up/3rd PG upside. That's certainly of some value but I don't think we should expect him to be the future PG of the Knicks.
I'm going to be critical, It's pretty disappointing we sit here with the PG situation as it is. I don't think anybody here if they were being honest would have signed for the 8/3 PG situation to be Rose/Vildoza/PG they landed 36th overall. They have to add another PG and not a Payton-level trash option. It's a flat-out failure if we go into the season with the PG situation what it is now.
What was a realistic alternative to fill that hole?
I'm going to be critical, It's pretty disappointing we sit here with the PG situation as it is. I don't think anybody here if they were being honest would have signed for the 8/3 PG situation to be Rose/Vildoza/PG they landed 36th overall. They have to add another PG and not a Payton-level trash option. It's a flat-out failure if we go into the season with the PG situation what it is now.
What was a realistic alternative to fill that hole?
Hollinger ranked all of the FA PG's. If not the high end of the market like Lowry, Ball, Graham etc...
Dinwiddie, McConnell, Caruso, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Cameron Payne, even the aforementioned Patty Mills. All due respect but I don't think there is a single Knicks fan who felt when the season commenced that Rose/Vildoza and a 2nd round PG was an acceptable PG group after what we saw. Replacing Payton with Vildoza/McBride?
Your long post above is spot on with how I feel, everyone was cheering these Noel and Burks deals and ripping me yesterday saying these contracts are easily tradeable. They are absolutely not. Exactly what I said yesterday we have no large expirings Portland doesn’t want nerlens Noel, Alex Burks or Derrick rose on 2-3 year deals ina trade for lillard they want to be in full on tank mode at that point. So now you need to find teams to tank on these contracts and the contenders who would probably want serviceable back up players won’t be able to take them on so now you need to deal them to a team with expirings and chances are they will not be contenders and it’s going to cost you more to make the trade.
Also people are writing it’s good they rewarded the guys who were on 1 year deals with extensions, that’s not a winning formula in the nba, the championship teams have massive turnover every year. This isn’t college basketball where you hope to have players that will stay all 4 years together and then those teams play so well together that they can upset kentucky or Duke who have one and done players. That formula works in college not in the nba. In the nba talent wins period. So I lied above and said I would let it go about Burks snd Noel but Dan metroman nailed it and I couldn’t agree more.
to be fair, the quoted text post is from John Hollinger, not from me but I do mostly agree with everything he said there... outside of that ridiculous 6 firsts/Barrett/Mitchell Robinson for Lillard deal lol
in a vacuum these moves were fine (don't love 3 years on Burks or Noel given I think they are role players) but I am still waiting to be "impressed" by this FO in the sense we hear so much about them and how things are different but their moves have been nearly across the board pretty by the book and cookie cutter. I'm waiting for Leon and Co. to do something where I go "this FO is really good".
Fully agree with this. I don’t think there was a realistic path to make the Knicks a contender. I do think there were many missed opportunities to stockpile some assets using the cap space they had. That’s a big miss in my opinion. Correct me if I’m wrong but they are now capped out for 3 years?
I also don’t get not being involved on Lonzo. He would have fit nicely here and I’d much prefer to pay a 23 year old Still waiting on some moves that are truly impressive or savvy.
You're going to see a bunch of people getting lower offers than giving Burks and Noel 10 mil per.
I honestly thought they would overpay some of these guys on 1 year deals. Wouldn't you rather have Rose on a 1 year 20 million deal than 3 years 14 mil per? I seriously thought it would be kicking the can next year to try to make a real run at LaVine or Beal.
Wonder if Thibs was the guy advocating for giving these guys longer deals?
You're going to see a bunch of people getting lower offers than giving Burks and Noel 10 mil per.
I honestly thought they would overpay some of these guys on 1 year deals. Wouldn't you rather have Rose on a 1 year 20 million deal than 3 years 14 mil per? I seriously thought it would be kicking the can next year to try to make a real run at LaVine or Beal.
Wonder if Thibs was the guy advocating for giving these guys longer deals?
Lavine and Beal are not making it to free agency, if they want to they will be traded, they will go where they want to
not willing to accept "there were no upgrades to be had at PG" at last year being fed that with Payton being brought back. He was already viewed as a bottom rung, last available PG option. Can't use that excuse every season.
You're going to see a bunch of people getting lower offers than giving Burks and Noel 10 mil per.
I honestly thought they would overpay some of these guys on 1 year deals. Wouldn't you rather have Rose on a 1 year 20 million deal than 3 years 14 mil per? I seriously thought it would be kicking the can next year to try to make a real run at LaVine or Beal.
Wonder if Thibs was the guy advocating for giving these guys longer deals?
Lavine and Beal are not making it to free agency, if they want to they will be traded, they will go where they want to
Yep the days of these guys making it to free agency are just about done. They all sign the crazy extensions. Even SGA did. We are lined up to make a run at the next star in a trade.
You're going to see a bunch of people getting lower offers than giving Burks and Noel 10 mil per.
I honestly thought they would overpay some of these guys on 1 year deals. Wouldn't you rather have Rose on a 1 year 20 million deal than 3 years 14 mil per? I seriously thought it would be kicking the can next year to try to make a real run at LaVine or Beal.
Wonder if Thibs was the guy advocating for giving these guys longer deals?
Lavine and Beal are not making it to free agency, if they want to they will be traded, they will go where they want to
You don't know that.
Plenty of guys get traded and wait to sign extensions. Pretty sure their teams have offered them both extensions and if they wanted to they could have signed them by now.
And even if that is true, putting Alec Burks on a 3 year deal in a package for either of those guys isn't really going to be seen as a net positive.
Hollinger ranked all of the FA PG's. If not the high end of the market like Lowry, Ball, Graham etc...
Dinwiddie, McConnell, Caruso, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Cameron Payne, even the aforementioned Patty Mills. All due respect but I don't think there is a single Knicks fan who felt when the season commenced that Rose/Vildoza and a 2nd round PG was an acceptable PG group after what we saw. Replacing Payton with Vildoza/McBride?
I'm disappointed on that front too. Was just curious if you had a specific guy or two in mind that you would have preferred seeing how the market played out.
Thibs absolutely had to have a voice on these deals
Move Thibs but he is unrealistic he will go into next season thinks are going to win the championship and I get it as a coach you should have a win now mentality, but the front office needs to be the ultimate decider regardless of coach’s view and clearly rose deal and noel deal is Thibs having a heavy influence. I am sorry I just cannot get over the Noel deal. There will be similar talented centers that will sign for 1 year vet minimum
Hollinger ranked all of the FA PG's. If not the high end of the market like Lowry, Ball, Graham etc...
Dinwiddie, McConnell, Caruso, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Cameron Payne, even the aforementioned Patty Mills. All due respect but I don't think there is a single Knicks fan who felt when the season commenced that Rose/Vildoza and a 2nd round PG was an acceptable PG group after what we saw. Replacing Payton with Vildoza/McBride?
I'm disappointed on that front too. Was just curious if you had a specific guy or two in mind that you would have preferred seeing how the market played out.
Really liked the idea of Payne when somebody brought him up. The sample size of success if somewhat small but he seems like he's the kind of guy they should be looking at if not a big fish.
You're going to see a bunch of people getting lower offers than giving Burks and Noel 10 mil per.
I honestly thought they would overpay some of these guys on 1 year deals. Wouldn't you rather have Rose on a 1 year 20 million deal than 3 years 14 mil per? I seriously thought it would be kicking the can next year to try to make a real run at LaVine or Beal.
Wonder if Thibs was the guy advocating for giving these guys longer deals?
Lavine and Beal are not making it to free agency, if they want to they will be traded, they will go where they want to
You don't know that.
Plenty of guys get traded and wait to sign extensions. Pretty sure their teams have offered them both extensions and if they wanted to they could have signed them by now.
And even if that is true, putting Alec Burks on a 3 year deal in a package for either of those guys isn't really going to be seen as a net positive.
read what i wrote again, if a guy wants to sign somewhere and it needs it to be a sign and trade they will do it...players dictate where they want to go..
not willing to accept "there were no upgrades to be had at PG" at last year being fed that with Payton being brought back. He was already viewed as a bottom rung, last available PG option. Can't use that excuse every season.
Yep totally agree. We as fans are not payed to run an NBA team. Its these guy's jobs to find a legit NBA starting PG. I don't care about the last 50 years. That's not on Rose and co. The fact is they have had last off season, the trade deadline and now this off season to do it. I know there is still time to do it, but so far they have failed miserably at that task. You're telling me that If they offer Cam Payne 3 years and 27- 30 mill he turns it down? I'm fine with a lot of what they've done, and I don't need an all star pg but please is a competent starter so much to ask for?
Hollinger ranked all of the FA PG's. If not the high end of the market like Lowry, Ball, Graham etc...
Dinwiddie, McConnell, Caruso, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Cameron Payne, even the aforementioned Patty Mills. All due respect but I don't think there is a single Knicks fan who felt when the season commenced that Rose/Vildoza and a 2nd round PG was an acceptable PG group after what we saw. Replacing Payton with Vildoza/McBride?
I'm disappointed on that front too. Was just curious if you had a specific guy or two in mind that you would have preferred seeing how the market played out.
Really liked the idea of Payne when somebody brought him up. The sample size of success if somewhat small but he seems like he's the kind of guy they should be looking at if not a big fish.
Seems like they did and he took less to stay in PHO
in a vacuum these moves were fine (don't love 3 years on Burks or Noel given I think they are role players) but I am still waiting to be "impressed" by this FO in the sense we hear so much about them and how things are different but their moves have been nearly across the board pretty by the book and cookie cutter. I'm waiting for Leon and Co. to do something where I go "this FO is really good".
Personally, I think the biggest change is in their drafting. They're not picking names off an ESPN big board list. They have their targets and they have their evaluations and they stick to them. They draft guys that fit their ideas and how they want to play.
If their targets are gone they prioritize gathering assets for future flexibility. We may not agree with their assessments of prospects, but they're still executing a philosophy.
I don't "disagree" with this but we also haven't really seen fruits of this to say "well they do draft really well". IQ looks like a very solid rotation piece and Toppin we shall see (Toppin went around where he was expected to go FWIW). I don't think I'm being hypercritical here.
I just want to see some moves, or a move where I feel some level of "this FO really knows what they are doing".
It feels like the moves yesterday could have been done by any of us "keep the guys who played well and sign Fournier"
It's cool, just having a discussion. I do think the FO shows competency by their process. Very Giants-like in that it's not one guy, it's a consensus. Everything you read says Thibs loved McBride and Grimes. They look like Thibs players. They're defense first guys with the length to be natural defenders. So they're not just collecting talent and handing it to the coach to figure out, and to me, that's a plus.
Going out and getting additional picks consistently shows foresight. They should always be prepared if an opportunity comes their way.
They're depending on the young players they committed to. being the driving force for improvement.
It might not work out, Barrett might not reach his potential inside his contract years. But I can accept failure when you at least have a plan. This is what team building should look like. It's just not fast work.
"That probably isn’t enough to sign any of the point guards remaining on the market, such as Dennis Schroder. But New York can add a quality rotation player. The club has significant interest in re-signing Taj Gibson, per sources. Gibson also has interest from several other teams. "
Move Thibs but he is unrealistic he will go into next season thinks are going to win the championship and I get it as a coach you should have a win now mentality, but the front office needs to be the ultimate decider regardless of coach’s view and clearly rose deal and noel deal is Thibs having a heavy influence. I am sorry I just cannot get over the Noel deal. There will be similar talented centers that will sign for 1 year vet minimum
Find me a center, this would be a fun exercise. Noel was 3rd in blocks among centers, 3rd in blocks per game, 2nd in block% and 2nd/3rd in defensive rating and defensive win share. We don't have to love all defensive metrics, but if you're going make a statement like that, I'd say show me the alternative. No, there aren't a truck full of high level defensive centers out there hat in hand willing to play for a dollar.
Move Thibs but he is unrealistic he will go into next season thinks are going to win the championship and I get it as a coach you should have a win now mentality, but the front office needs to be the ultimate decider regardless of coach’s view and clearly rose deal and noel deal is Thibs having a heavy influence. I am sorry I just cannot get over the Noel deal. There will be similar talented centers that will sign for 1 year vet minimum
Find me a center, this would be a fun exercise. Noel was 3rd in blocks among centers, 3rd in blocks per game, 2nd in block% and 2nd/3rd in defensive rating and defensive win share. We don't have to love all defensive metrics, but if you're going make a statement like that, I'd say show me the alternative. No, there aren't a truck full of high level defensive centers out there hat in hand willing to play for a dollar.
Noel isn't chopped liver. He's a good player, but personally, I think that Mitch and Taj would have been a fine rotation at center. All that hinges on Mitch staying healthy though.
gary washburn
@GwashburnGlobe
·
5h
Evan Fournier said his first intention was to re-sign with #Celtics: "That was my priority going into the summer. Because I knew the place. I talked to Brad and we couldn't get a deal done, obviously. I was more inclined to sign there because they traded for me." Story to come
Seems like they were doing one thing on draft night and then did an
180 shortly after. We will be perennial 6-8 seeds until Thibs wears the roster out in 2 years.
Build through the draft, pick the best players, that’s the only way. Punting on the draft was a mistake. Then resign mediocre vets so those rookies will get exactly zero minutes from Thibs?
I get it the block numbers were very good and against smaller centers his on ball defense was fine, but he struggled terribly against stronger/bigger centers. And he is an absolute zero on offense he is literally has the worst hands in nba history. He can’t finish alley oops. He is not worth anywhere near what we paid him especially given the state of our team which is a 6-8 seed in the east and not really a contender. I would rather take Gibson as our backup center then Noel. And then take a chance on the young guy we just drafted as the 3rd center.
Everyone screaming we need a PG is not listening to the Knicks.
They signed their PG to a 3 year deal. Thibs loves Rose and he will start and be the primary PG, I could see Thibs pushing minutes like he did in the playoffs.
Hopefully Rose can stay healthy.
Everyone screaming we need a PG is not listening to the Knicks.
They signed their PG to a 3 year deal. Thibs loves Rose and he will start and be the primary PG, I could see Thibs pushing minutes like he did in the playoffs.
Hopefully Rose can stay healthy.
He does love Rose but he also benched Rose for Elf until it was completely untenable to do so. They definitely want a starter.
RE: Seems like they were doing one thing on draft night and then did an
180 shortly after. We will be perennial 6-8 seeds until Thibs wears the roster out in 2 years.
Build through the draft, pick the best players, that’s the only way. Punting on the draft was a mistake. Then resign mediocre vets so those rookies will get exactly zero minutes from Thibs?
So you assume players on the roster wont improve?
So Rj, Quick and Mitch are all at their ceiling?
Fournier doesnt improve the offense over Bullock?
No matter who the pg is not annimprovement over Payton?
I think rj, Quickley and Obi improve, but they aren’t going to be superstars and the other teams we are competing with in my opinion have gotten better. I think we can all agree atlanta and Miami are better than us, so that puts in contention for the 6 seed with Boston, Indiana, Charlotte. I am interested in your sell on why we are now better than any of the top 5 teams in the east. These moves the Knicks made don’t really move the needle even with RJ improvement. RJ will never be a superstar he just isnt athletic enough, he can peak around top 25-50 range, which is still very good.
I think rj, Quickley and Obi improve, but they aren’t going to be superstars and the other teams we are competing with in my opinion have gotten better. I think we can all agree atlanta and Miami are better than us, so that puts in contention for the 6 seed with Boston, Indiana, Charlotte. I am interested in your sell on why we are now better than any of the top 5 teams in the east. These moves the Knicks made don’t really move the needle even with RJ improvement. RJ will never be a superstar he just isnt athletic enough, he can peak around top 25-50 range, which is still very good.
Are the Knicks done? people are obsessed with sayong the Knicks are locked in, no they arent, that trade for a superstar is still on the table..
Also is Fournier better than Bullock?
The Knicks had the worst starting point in the NBA and were still the 4th seed..
Do they finish top 4 again? i dont know, but can we stop acting like this is a finsihed product and the knicks have no flexibility?
Yes I think they are done, even if they get your favorite free agent pg Dennis Schroeder that doesn’t move the needle. They are a 6 seed at best, there is nothing wrong with that. The other 5 teams ahead of them are much better teams, period.
Even if you trade for lillard, it will cost rj, Obi and Mitch with picks, a lillard/Randle/Fournier combo is still probably just a 6 seed.
Yes I think they are done, even if they get your favorite free agent pg Dennis Schroeder that doesn’t move the needle. They are a 6 seed at best, there is nothing wrong with that. The other 5 teams ahead of them are much better teams, period.
Even if you trade for lillard, it will cost rj, Obi and Mitch with picks, a lillard/Randle/Fournier combo is still probably just a 6 seed.
Schroeder is my favorite?
What if Rj becomes a 20ppg scorer? Randle stays the same as last year, Mitch plays more than 30 games? Grimes gives you something off the bench and toppin improves, they arent a better team?
I mean that's not even worth discussing. The same core team was a 4 seed last year and if they add Lillard they're a 6 now because of Lonzo Ball and 35 year old Lowry?
about bringing back the more important parts of a 4 seed and added to it with a vet and young players and have young players on the team that will improve..
I see some guy saying we actually have 27 mill because we have “2 exceptions” on top of that? I’m assuming this guy is talking out of his ass but what is he even referring to?
about bringing back the more important parts of a 4 seed and added to it with a vet and young players and have young players on the team that will improve..
No one is complaining. I think most people are disappointed that we went into the offseason with 50 million dollars in cap space and we upgraded 1 position.
I see some guy saying we actually have 27 mill because we have “2 exceptions” on top of that? I’m assuming this guy is talking out of his ass but what is he even referring to?
Talking out of his ass..
Knicks have 9 to 12 million and 5 million in the room level exception
about bringing back the more important parts of a 4 seed and added to it with a vet and young players and have young players on the team that will improve..
No one is complaining. I think most people are disappointed that we went into the offseason with 50 million dollars in cap space and we upgraded 1 position.
I see some guy saying we actually have 27 mill because we have “2 exceptions” on top of that? I’m assuming this guy is talking out of his ass but what is he even referring to?
Talking out of his ass..
Knicks have 9 to 12 million and 5 million in the room level exception
Sorry here’s the exact quote:
“The Collective Bargaining Agreement provides for three different mid-level exceptions depending on a team’s salary level. The non-taxpayer mid-level for the 2021-22 season is $9.536 million, the taxpayer mid-level is $5.890 million, and the mid-level for a team with room under the Salary Cap is $4.910 million.”
And somehow he’s getting 27 mill out of that, I guess by adding up random numbers he’s seeing lol
I see some guy saying we actually have 27 mill because we have “2 exceptions” on top of that? I’m assuming this guy is talking out of his ass but what is he even referring to?
Yeah that's nonsense.
We have about 8.8 Mil left in pure cap room. If we waive Vildoza which we can with no penalty that goes to 12 mil.
If we trade Knox for nothing that goes to 17 mil.
They still should be active in the trade market and/or with any remaining PGs.
You get one of those exceptions. Seems like the space is a result of Rose fitting into early bird rights despite reports to the contrary last night.
Steve Popper
@StevePopper
16m
Hearing that the Derrick Rose deal may not hamstring the Knicks the way it's been talked about - think he's fitting into an early bird slot, so Knicks could have at least $9 million - which could escalate easily to $12 million.
Mr. Knicksman
@Knicksman780
·
2m
Knicks “closely monitoring” De’Aaron Fox.
It’s gonna take a haul to get him though.
What he's saying is almost certainly true. Fox is a great player and the Knicks both need a point guard and are looking for a star to become available so I'm sure they are monitoring him and a bunch of other stars.
I have it on good authority that the Knicks are not trading RJ Barrett for many different reasons.
If the Knicks go after Lillard or Fox, he will not be in the package. He is part of why guys want to play here. He is a very good guy and a very hard worker.
I have it on good authority that the Knicks are not trading RJ Barrett for many different reasons.
If the Knicks go after Lillard or Fox, he will not be in the package. He is part of why guys want to play here. He is a very good guy and a very hard worker.
Great. Given the strides he made from year 1 to year 2 I think he has high upside if he can tighten his handle and work on finishing.
Jeremy Cohen
@TheCohencidence
It's July 1st, 2022. Bradley Beal signs a 35% max deal with the Wizards. Zach LaVine re-ups in Chicago. Stephen Curry re-signed long ago.
Knicks have $40M+ in cap space and fans are advocating for Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier. I crawl to the corner of my room and begin crying
but these max deals are so high that these guys really have to hate where they are to risk hitting UFA. And even if they do their former team can still give them more right? Trades are the best bet for getting a star (outside of draft of course).
The biggest surprise to me so far was Rose getting a third guaranteed year at that number. Otherwise, the signings are all on the scale of reasonable to me (Noel least so). Seems like this year will hinge on, in no specific order, (1) can Randle come close to repeating his year, (2) what does RJ look like in year 3, and (3) how do the young guys do (mostly IQ (who I think might start) and Obi with the rookies to a lesser extent).
Marc Stein
@TheSteinLine
·
6m
Available unrestricted free agents include:
Kawhi Leonard (BUT expected to re-sign with the Clippers)
DeMar DeRozan
Carmelo Anthony
Patty Mills
Dennis Schröder
Kelly Oubre
DeMarcus Cousins
Danny Green
Andre Iguodala
Enes Kanter
Reggie Jackson
I have it on good authority that the Knicks are not trading RJ Barrett for many different reasons.
If the Knicks go after Lillard or Fox, he will not be in the package. He is part of why guys want to play here. He is a very good guy and a very hard worker.
Great. Given the strides he made from year 1 to year 2 I think he has high upside if he can tighten his handle and work on finishing.
Exactly, athleticism isn't the only path towards elevation of game. Handle and playmaking, and getting into the lane with more balance. His reliance on finishing off one leg limits his ability to finish in the lane. He has intangibles that allow for continuous improvement. Well see how he attacks his negative tendencies.
Tommy Beer
@TommyBeer
·
3h
Free agents left on the board:
Kawhi Leonard
John Collins (R)
DeMar DeRozan
Lauri Markkanen (R)
Danny Green
Talen Horton-Tucker (R)
Dennis Schroder
Reggie Jackson
Kelly Oubre Jr
Victor Oladipo
Andre Drummond
Carmelo Anthony
Patty Mills
K. Nunn (R)
JJ Redick
Rudy Gay
Lou Williams
but these max deals are so high that these guys really have to hate where they are to risk hitting UFA. And even if they do their former team can still give them more right? Trades are the best bet for getting a star (outside of draft of course).
Yeah, that's correct. The free agency rules are in place to really encourage guys not to leave their teams. So the game is sign and trade, because the team you're leaving can always pay you more than the team that wants to trade for you.
But we easily could have been the 6 seed, lol. Let not act like we were the clear 4 seed, Miami and Atlanta were either tied or 1 game back in a shortened season. To me they are both clearly better teams then the Knicks moving head. This is with my view that the Knicks way overachieved given their talent. I enjoyed every second of it, but the Knicks played as hard as they could for all 72 games with the exception of one or two, Thibs had Randle playing 35-40 minutes a night. If you recall around the all star break the team seemed headed to another poor year snd then they got hot and rode that confidence to the playoffs. Then the playoffs showed they weren’t as good as we all thought they were. The truth is they weren’t as bad of team as they showe in the playoffs, but they weren’t as good as they showed in the regular season. So in my opinion if you brought back the exact same team for this year they are probably a 500 team, maybe slightly above. So you add Fournier and maybe he gets you another 1-3 wins. That’s not good enough to be ahead of Miami or Atalanta.
Nygiants I also do not believe Randle to be a top 20 player, yes he was all nba last year, but there easily 30 players I would trade Randle straight up for without thinking twice and then probably 10 more that are debatable.
I love lilard, but he and McCollum haven’t been able to get very far together. I can make a case that McCollum and Randle are at similar levels in the top 50 players in the league, why do we think that a lillard, Randle combo makes the Knicks better then the top 5 in the east. Full disclosure I have Randle slightly higher than McCollum but not much. I would still prefer to be Atlanta or Miami and obviously we wouldn’t be close to the top 3.
Are you going to share your plan that would've elevated us to championship level this week?
I hated the length of the Rose and Noel contracts - a combined $75 million over the next three seasons for a bench big and an aging PG on borrowed time is a poor use of cap space. Noel looks even worse now with Taj back on a bargain contract - Mitch, Taj, Sims and Obi/Randle at the small ball five offers plenty of flexibility there. Noel/Rose were just gifts to Thibs.
It's been clear for awhile now they are gonna trade for a star in the next calendar year and build a supporting cast around whatever's left.
RE: Guys I know we like to pound our chest about being the 4 seed
But we easily could have been the 6 seed, lol. Let not act like we were the clear 4 seed, Miami and Atlanta were either tied or 1 game back in a shortened season. To me they are both clearly better teams then the Knicks moving head. This is with my view that the Knicks way overachieved given their talent. I enjoyed every second of it, but the Knicks played as hard as they could for all 72 games with the exception of one or two, Thibs had Randle playing 35-40 minutes a night. If you recall around the all star break the team seemed headed to another poor year snd then they got hot and rode that confidence to the playoffs. Then the playoffs showed they weren’t as good as we all thought they were. The truth is they weren’t as bad of team as they showe in the playoffs, but they weren’t as good as they showed in the regular season. So in my opinion if you brought back the exact same team for this year they are probably a 500 team, maybe slightly above. So you add Fournier and maybe he gets you another 1-3 wins. That’s not good enough to be ahead of Miami or Atalanta.
Nygiants I also do not believe Randle to be a top 20 player, yes he was all nba last year, but there easily 30 players I would trade Randle straight up for without thinking twice and then probably 10 more that are debatable.
I love lilard, but he and McCollum haven’t been able to get very far together. I can make a case that McCollum and Randle are at similar levels in the top 50 players in the league, why do we think that a lillard, Randle combo makes the Knicks better then the top 5 in the east. Full disclosure I have Randle slightly higher than McCollum but not much. I would still prefer to be Atlanta or Miami and obviously we wouldn’t be close to the top 3.
Gmen46 you keep beating the same drum, we get it you are unhappy with the moves and you believe it has set them back for next year and beyond.
but the only contract that was noted as being fully guaranteed was Burks correct? Has there been any word yet on Noel or Rose as to whether the 3rd year is fully guaranteed or not? Fournier was a team option for 4th year, but would be interesting to see if Noel or Rose become in essence and expiring contract after next year.
He hated the Rose and Noel contracts. I think it's a good assessment. Thought they should have waited it out for another year, given 1 year or 1+1 contracts even if it meant regression for the year. Having the cap space next year would allow you 2 avenues of getting a star, not just sign and trade.
Basically a lot of the sentiment that has been talked about here.
Sometimes I wonder if Berman knows how basketball works
Not looking to rile up the Frank hive but it sure suggests something when it's day 2 of FA and there has been damn near silence regarding his market. A 23 year old supposed defensive dynamo
Not looking to rile up the Frank hive but it sure suggests something when it's day 2 of FA and there has been damn near silence regarding his market. A 23 year old supposed defensive dynamo
It was curtains for him when the Knicks needed someone to stop Trae and Frank was nowhere to be seen.
Bullock (arguably the worst of the 3) got snapped up for a contract virtually identical to Burks the first hour of FA by Dallas. So this concept that we could repeat last year's game plan was dubious to work again. Sure we could have gone and signed other guys, but we know those 3 worked really well in Thibs system. Why risk it with other unnamed vets?
Not a lot of big cap available.
S. Dinwiddie
K. Nunn-R
R. Jackson
D. Schroder
P. Mills
B. Brown-R
I. Smith
D. Green
J. Redick
D. DeRozan
K. Oubre Jr.
R. Gay
J. Hart-R
O. Porter
J. Collins-R
L. Markkanen-R
C. Anthony
J. Vanderbilt-R
A. Drummond
K. Birch
E. Kanter
R. Lopez
RE: RE: Schmeelk is the best source for Knicks takes.
He hated the Rose and Noel contracts. I think it's a good assessment. Thought they should have waited it out for another year, given 1 year or 1+1 contracts even if it meant regression for the year. Having the cap space next year would allow you 2 avenues of getting a star, not just sign and trade.
Basically a lot of the sentiment that has been talked about here.
1+1 sounds good but really we'd be right back where we are now next year. Cap Space, big holes to fill and very few upgrades available on the market. The team clearly decided that wasn't a preferable situation. So they brought back the core from last year and added a quality scorer.
This is the most continuity the Knicks have had in 20 years. Hopefully they show their basketball culture really is better, win 45 or so games and the next big star that wants out picks the bright lights of MSG. Looking at you, Dame or Donovan...
RE: The cap exception and MLE are going to be popular
Not a lot of big cap available.
S. Dinwiddie
K. Nunn-R
R. Jackson
D. Schroder
P. Mills
B. Brown-R
I. Smith
D. Green
J. Redick
D. DeRozan
K. Oubre Jr.
R. Gay
J. Hart-R
O. Porter
J. Collins-R
L. Markkanen-R
C. Anthony
J. Vanderbilt-R
A. Drummond
K. Birch
E. Kanter
R. Lopez
Dinwiddie signed with Washington, Gay with the Jazz, Porter with GSW, Brown remained with BK
Horrendous 2021 but JJ Redick for the veterans minimum might not be the worst idea. I won't complain about Taj but Khem Birch reminds me of a younger version, surprised he's still available
I didn’t listen to the link, but his plan from what you wrote is exactly what I would have done and what I said yesterday. Kick the cap out another year, even if you just stay the same for the year. Only sign 1 year deals, keep the flexibility. I never said we were building a championship this offseason I just didn’t want to ruin the next offseason. We got unlucky we had cap space when there were no good free agents, so Either lock up average players, which we did or, sign average to slightly below average players in 1 year deals with team options for year 2.
Not a Drummond fan at all but he only got a 1 year vet min and we paid noel $10 million lol, what an embarrassment. Time for Leon to face the media.
For one year otto Porter for $2.3 million or Alex Burks at 3 years $30 million. I get injury risks with Porter, but it’s a no brainer twke the chance vs locking in $30 million. Give me Drummond as my backup center for $2 million, I don’t even like him, but save the cap space.
Bullock (arguably the worst of the 3) got snapped up for a contract virtually identical to Burks the first hour of FA by Dallas. So this concept that we could repeat last year's game plan was dubious to work again. Sure we could have gone and signed other guys, but we know those 3 worked really well in Thibs system. Why risk it with other unnamed vets?
Because Thibs should be able to change his system to accommodate players. Burks is a scrap heap guy, same with Noel. And I doubt there's any other team in the league that values Derrick Rose as highly as we do.
You have a good relationship with him, have him go out and see if he can find a deal. Maybe that's what they did, no way of knowing.
I dunno, it's clear to me there are people who are happy with what the Knicks did and I get that. I had a fun time rooting for the team last year, but that's because I expected nothing and there was the hope for the future. The promise of FA and cap space. But that's gone now and we have a middling team (somewhere between the 4-9 seed team I'd suspect). But it feels like in the NBA you either want to be at the top of the pile, or the bottom. Mediocrity hampers your ability to get better.
For one year otto Porter for $2.3 million or Alex Burks at 3 years $30 million. I get injury risks with Porter, but it’s a no brainer twke the chance vs locking in $30 million. Give me Drummond as my backup center for $2 million, I don’t even like him, but save the cap space.
Drummond is a cancer and his game is an actual disruption.
I wouldn't put on the Knicks if he paid them 2 million to play
However, a few pundits really like him, and clearly Thibs does. The thinking of a few is that Gibbons has the talent to be a near-starter in a years or so, on shooting plus defense plus athleticism.
Then, of course there is McBride, which one Knicks site has predicted as "The Steal of the Draft" (link), and whom Thibs seems to really love, but whom no one else wanted to pick before the 36th pick of the draft. He clearly has some skills that make him fit well as a "Thibs guy," particularly at PG, but I can't QUITE get my head around the idea that the entire rest of the league minimized his value, while Thibs/Rose had it right.
If they did, of course, then the seeming big hole at PG behind Rose and whomever they bring in with the cap room left, goes away--if not this year, then by 2022-3. McBride shoots well, makes very few mistakes, and can apparently pass well enough for the NBA. And play D from the PG position. Hopefully, D Rose can function as a mentor for McBride. But, boy, I need to get my head around the idea that Thibs/Rose were right and everyone else was wrong. I struggle with that.
Of course, Quickley might fit in there somewhere as well: is he more of a PG than a lot here give him credit for being (he has hardly been mentioned)? If McBride plus Quickley can fill a lot of PG space, then a lot of the problems with the current team seem to go away--with the bunch of future Knicks draft picks helping for more talent, or in trades. But, this is way more of a gamble than I was expecting from draft night plus FAs.
But how many wins is Fournier adding over reddick. With Fournier maybe Knicks win 45 games plus in reddick + more Iq minutes I argue they still probably in 42-45 games. I would rather sign reddick and gay on short term deals then Fournier to keep flexibility
RE: RE: For the wait it out with Rose and Burks crowd
Bullock (arguably the worst of the 3) got snapped up for a contract virtually identical to Burks the first hour of FA by Dallas. So this concept that we could repeat last year's game plan was dubious to work again. Sure we could have gone and signed other guys, but we know those 3 worked really well in Thibs system. Why risk it with other unnamed vets?
Because Thibs should be able to change his system to accommodate players. Burks is a scrap heap guy, same with Noel. And I doubt there's any other team in the league that values Derrick Rose as highly as we do.
You have a good relationship with him, have him go out and see if he can find a deal. Maybe that's what they did, no way of knowing.
I dunno, it's clear to me there are people who are happy with what the Knicks did and I get that. I had a fun time rooting for the team last year, but that's because I expected nothing and there was the hope for the future. The promise of FA and cap space. But that's gone now and we have a middling team (somewhere between the 4-9 seed team I'd suspect). But it feels like in the NBA you either want to be at the top of the pile, or the bottom. Mediocrity hampers your ability to get better.
pretty well known that other teams were after Noel..
Also it has already been said the Knicks had to outbid chicago
we should compare vets signing with championship contenders to guys signing with the knicks? Of course guys like otto poter arent going to take the vet min to come here. you have to compare apples to apples. guys who are ring chasing aren't going for the money.
but I can't QUITE get my head around the idea that the entire rest of the league minimized his value, while Thibs/Rose had it right.
I'm certainly not advocating for blind trust or anything like that, but we're one year removed from them drafting Immanuel Quickley 25th and getting an all-rookie player at that slot.
looks done but I wouldn't hate giving him the veterans minimum. He lives in Brooklyn and is a good teammate.
I think he will retire, he had nothing left at the end of the year.
Maybe Brooklyn gives him the minimum to sit on the bench but I can't see him being in anyone's rotation
If our key players are Randle, rj, quickly, Mitch and Obi.
In this scenario I keeping rose for both options although would have been fine with Cameron Payne
What is the win differential between:
Fournier
Burks
Noel
Reddick
Porter or Rudy gay
Drummond
Either way these guys are at best the 4th option at best, 1 Randle, 2 Rj and 3 rose, I could argue that Quickley is 4th option, but let’s say Fournier is your 4th option vs reddick, how many extra wins does it lead to? If you play reddick 25 minutes a night it means more Quickley minutes.
Your telling me we go from 6-8 seed to out of the playoffs swapping reddick for Fournier?
looks done but I wouldn't hate giving him the veterans minimum. He lives in Brooklyn and is a good teammate.
I think he will retire, he had nothing left at the end of the year.
Maybe Brooklyn gives him the minimum to sit on the bench but I can't see him being in anyone's rotation
I'm not particularly invested in them bringing in Reddick. He's probably finished (nice career). Of the realistic names I'd probably go Schroeder for 1 year (don't think it's actually realistic) or Reggie Jackson.
But how many wins is Fournier adding over reddick. With Fournier maybe Knicks win 45 games plus in reddick + more Iq minutes I argue they still probably in 42-45 games. I would rather sign reddick and gay on short term deals then Fournier to keep flexibility
You said I would give a 38 yr old broken Reddick 1 year -20 million.
Have you watched Fournier play?
He is going to give you 18-20 and .380+ from 3.
He is worth the contract he got and is a huge upgrade.
Reddick in his prime wasn't Fournier.
I will give the Noel contract all day but Fournier was a really good signing with a 4 year team option
If our key players are Randle, rj, quickly, Mitch and Obi.
In this scenario I keeping rose for both options although would have been fine with Cameron Payne
What is the win differential between:
Fournier
Burks
Noel
Reddick
Porter or Rudy gay
Drummond
Either way these guys are at best the 4th option at best, 1 Randle, 2 Rj and 3 rose, I could argue that Quickley is 4th option, but let’s say Fournier is your 4th option vs reddick, how many extra wins does it lead to? If you play reddick 25 minutes a night it means more Quickley minutes.
Your telling me we go from 6-8 seed to out of the playoffs swapping reddick for Fournier?
Payne took less to stay in PHX he knows he is going to get minutes there with CP3 resting and wants a ring.
Fournier is right now your 2nd option over RJ because he can create has own shot better than RJ currently hopefully that's not for too long.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
32s
Free agent G Patty Mills has agreed to a two-year, $12M deal with the Brooklyn Nets, his agent Steven Heumann of
@CAA_Basketball
tells ESPN. Deal includes a player option.
Just curious what top FA are you thinking that 30 something win team is attracting? We were 10 games over this year with about 55 mill in cap space yesterday and didn't even get a sniff from Lowry or CP3.
Thing is, if you like Fournier, sign him. I think he'll be a nice upgrade for this team.
I think my biggest issue is the Noel contract. When you have Mitch, who's a better, younger player with a chance to be an actual 2 way player on the roster, why give that contract to Noel? It's not like he hasn't had his share of injury concerns through the years as well.
Thing is, if you like Fournier, sign him. I think he'll be a nice upgrade for this team.
I think my biggest issue is the Noel contract. When you have Mitch, who's a better, younger player with a chance to be an actual 2 way player on the roster, why give that contract to Noel? It's not like he hasn't had his share of injury concerns through the years as well.
This i agree with, i dont like the Noel deal either could of had 18 to 20 million right now to sign a point or trade for one
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
32s
Free agent G Patty Mills has agreed to a two-year, $12M deal with the Brooklyn Nets, his agent Steven Heumann of
@CAA_Basketball
tells ESPN. Deal includes a player option.
that is big time for them.
depth wise, playing style- keeping brown and getting him
This past year was awesome don’t get me wrong but the next 2-3 years being the same or slightly better does nothing for me and to me is a waste of time.
I want to see the Knicks wins championship, nothing else matters to me. I know nothing this offseason was going to get us remotely close to being able to do that, but we have eliminated the next 2 years. Year 3 these become expiring contracts so we can sign and trade for potential stars. Nothing we did this offseason will significantly change the outcome. Worst case scenario is probably a play in game best case scenario is winning the first round of a playoff series, which means we would have to be the 5 seed because 6,7 and 8 is automatic first round knock out.
Thing is, if you like Fournier, sign him. I think he'll be a nice upgrade for this team.
I think my biggest issue is the Noel contract. When you have Mitch, who's a better, younger player with a chance to be an actual 2 way player on the roster, why give that contract to Noel? It's not like he hasn't had his share of injury concerns through the years as well.
Nerlens is very good defensively and a pro's pro. Better than Mitch in a bunch of ways. He earned that contract. Mitch isn't durable either and is an asset you may need to trade for a star. Thibs wants rim protectors behind tight perimeter defenders. You can't put all that on Mitch and not have depth there until Mitch shows he really can be a Gobert/Capela type who can grind it out night after night. Nerlens Noel led the league in Defensive Box Plus-Minus - ( New Window )
This past year was awesome don’t get me wrong but the next 2-3 years being the same or slightly better does nothing for me and to me is a waste of time.
I want to see the Knicks wins championship, nothing else matters to me. I know nothing this offseason was going to get us remotely close to being able to do that, but we have eliminated the next 2 years. Year 3 these become expiring contracts so we can sign and trade for potential stars. Nothing we did this offseason will significantly change the outcome. Worst case scenario is probably a play in game best case scenario is winning the first round of a playoff series, which means we would have to be the 5 seed because 6,7 and 8 is automatic first round knock out.
Wasnt the plan for most to trade for a star?? what changed yesterday? they can still trade for a star player
In FA.
We will never know what others were offering.
I like having him back and if he plays is well as he did last year 10 million is not a lot.
I agree that there were a lot of other priorities for this team for the team at 10 million per.
I would have like to see what was out there before they committed to him but he was obviously a priority signing to Rose since the deal was announced right away.
So what you are saying is that the Knicks gave up on one year-- 2022-3. They weren't ever going to get to the top this upcoming year, and as you note, in 2023-4 these are all expiring contracts. Meanwhile, the Knicks have a bunch of draft picks to either trade or (hopefully) use to upgrade.
It maybe the worse free agent signing of the offseason and its probably not close, maybe Mcdermont 3 for 42 is a close 2nd
It's not even the worst deal at this position. Zach Collins got 3/22 and hasn't played basketball in two years and is coming off his second consecutive foot surgery
It maybe the worse free agent signing of the offseason and its probably not close, maybe Mcdermont 3 for 42 is a close 2nd
It's not even the worst deal at this position. Zach Collins got 3/22 and hasn't played basketball in two years and is coming off his second consecutive foot surgery
Or Caruso at 4/37 is another obvious one that sucks more.
@ShamsCharania
·
16s
The Miami Heat have pulled the qualifying offer on Kendrick Nunn, making him an unrestricted free agent, sources tell
@TheAthletic
Dude played his ass off in the playoffs. He and Rose were honestly the only ones who seemed to play with real desperation. Everyone else almost seemed to throw up the white flag in games 3-5 as soon as Atlanta went on any sort of run.
@ShamsCharania
·
16s
The Miami Heat have pulled the qualifying offer on Kendrick Nunn, making him an unrestricted free agent, sources tell
@TheAthletic
@Stadium
.
Wonder if a team was ready to sign him and he asked to get his qualifying offer rscinded
is insurance against Robinson asking for too much after next season, and either not getting re-signed, or getting aq sign and trade. The Knicks do not want to go into 2022-23 with any rim protection
public, Melo and Russ will have legit shots at a championship. Melo is a very useful player at this point. He finally stopped trying to be a star and it worked well in POR. He should be 20 minutes a game scoring off the bench. Finally gets to play with Lebron, lol.
but he seems more like a scoring guard than a PG and i feel like adding him would really just clog things up at this point with IQ, Burks, Rose and our rookies. Reggie Jackson feels like a guy who could play more of the playmaker role that we need.
This past year was awesome don’t get me wrong but the next 2-3 years being the same or slightly better does nothing for me and to me is a waste of time.
I want to see the Knicks wins championship, nothing else matters to me. I know nothing this offseason was going to get us remotely close to being able to do that, but we have eliminated the next 2 years. Year 3 these become expiring contracts so we can sign and trade for potential stars. Nothing we did this offseason will significantly change the outcome. Worst case scenario is probably a play in game best case scenario is winning the first round of a playoff series, which means we would have to be the 5 seed because 6,7 and 8 is automatic first round knock out.
This line of thinking is why people say rebuilding doesn't work in New York. If you don't see the importance of an organization that still has the stench of being a multiple decade dumpster fire being good and stable for a couple years idk what to tell you.
Why are people saying the contracts are easy to trade
Portland will not want nerlens Noel and Alex Burks for $20 million per year on their cap. Why would they want these players, so in order to take them the cost goes up? Are you guys serious that you think teams are going to be running to the phones begging for nerlens Noel snd Alex Burks on 3 years deals?
QO was 4.7 million
Depending how this plays out the Knicks could still offer a 1 or 2 year deal at 8 million per.
Knicks can offer him an opportunity to prove himself in a pseudo starting role.
QO was 4.7 million
Depending how this plays out the Knicks could still offer a 1 or 2 year deal at 8 million per.
Knicks can offer him an opportunity to prove himself in a pseudo starting role.
I'd be surprised if they couldn't move Knox and free up some of that money too if they wanted to
Why would you give numn 3 years $30 million how is he getting minutes? Another 3 year contract at $10 mil per year to sit in the bench. He would take minutes from grimes, McBride and Quickley. I would rather those guys get the minutes.
RE: Why are people saying the contracts are easy to trade
Portland will not want nerlens Noel and Alex Burks for $20 million per year on their cap. Why would they want these players, so in order to take them the cost goes up? Are you guys serious that you think teams are going to be running to the phones begging for nerlens Noel snd Alex Burks on 3 years deals?
Because Burks and Noel at 10 million to a team at the deadline are definitely a possibility.
These are not 20 million dollars deals.
These are players that have proven to be assets.
Burks is instant offense and has proven to be able to play big at the end of games.
Noel is one of the best rim protectors around and did it in big spots last season.
10 million is nothing to fit under a cap.
Why would you give numn 3 years $30 million how is he getting minutes? Another 3 year contract at $10 mil per year to sit in the bench. He would take minutes from grimes, McBride and Quickley. I would rather those guys get the minutes.
He would start.
Rose, IQ, Burks off the bench. McBride in the G League to start.
To be the starting pg even though he is not a point guard?
Look, ideally we'd land CP3 in his prime. It's not happening. We're all grasping at straws to solve the decade long hole at the 1 spot. Is he a quarterback type? No. But neither is Rose for the most part. The offense will run thru JR quite a bit and hopefully the surrounding pieces (improved RJB, upgrade of the 3rd option in EF etc.) are better. Can Nunn play a viable role here? Yeah.
That's an 11 man rotation, before you even get to McBride and Grimes.
Too many.
If Knicks are going to add significant PG help (Nunn or whoever), the superfluous guy, to me, is Burks.
People say: why not bring Burks back? The answer is because you gave a ton of money to Fournier, who wasn't here last year. And you have RJ and IQ.
Right now, you can at least rationalize Burks as a ball handler, because Knicks are short at PG. You fill that hole and you're paying Burks a lot of money to eat minutes from guys who should be on the court.
To be the starting pg even though he is not a point guard?
He played 63 games at PG his rookie year.
As most have stated is he a play making PG no.
He is not strong defender either but you can't deny his shot making ability at the PG position.
If you can get him on a prove it deal at this point it's a steal.
Another young shooter on the cheap.
I don't see him getting a long deal right now and we can offer playing time and still the opportunity to win.
I just don't think Thibs would be big on his lack of defense.
it's likely to be a multi-year deal. They won't have cap space for the next two years so while they still have it they're going to want to sign someone to a multi-year deal to have salaries to match in trades later.
his defense comes and goes. This seems backed up by even Heat fans. To me, that means somebody like Thibs might really help him
"His defensive intensity is a world better than it was last season. This is the best way to describe it.
Last season, there were a ton of times where you wondered if he was asleep or not. Rotations would happen, passes would go by, or players would relocate and Nunn wouldn’t move, turn his head, or anything.
Then, you have this season. He seems like a different guy.
Whether it be getting in on the scrums, diving through passes, or simply fighting harder on that side than he has before, you can see a different level of defensive intensity from the guy. I love it and along with his ability to simply knock down shots, his increased level of defensive effort is a welcomed sight and a reason to continue to keep him around as well." Link - ( New Window )
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
23s
Sources: The San Antonio Spurs are finalizing sending DeMar DeRozan to the Chicago Bulls for Thad Young, a future first-round pick and two second-round picks.
Just recently, head coach Erik Spoelstra was full of praise for the manner in which Nunn has responded:
“K. Nunn has incredible competitive character. He really does. He has a grit and a perseverance to him that not only do you have confidence that he’ll be able to respond with this kind of adversity, but you respect him so much that you’re, like, really rooting for him, and you really want it of him. It was great just to see all the work that nobody else does see behind the scenes. He just grinds and works at it every day….We needed playmaking. We needed scoring.”
While somewhat limited at just 6’2″, Nunn’s propensity to dig in defensively has started to deliver some positive results. Averaging 1.2 steals per game for the season, Nunn has averaged 5.5 deflections and 3.5 steals over his past two games, thus providing coach Spoelstra with something additional to Nunn’s primary role as a scorer. Link - ( New Window )
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
3m
DeMar DeRozan is finalizing a three-year, $85 million-plus deal to join the Chicago Bulls, sources tell
@TheAthletic
Cap Space is overrated. The Bulls had none and got Ball and Derozan.
Derozan was not a great fit with the Knicks, but the Bulls have to be considered in the mix in the Eastern Conference 2nd tier with the Knicks, Hawks, Pacers, Hornets and Celtics.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
3m
DeMar DeRozan is finalizing a three-year, $85 million-plus deal to join the Chicago Bulls, sources tell
@TheAthletic
@Stadium
If the Knicks traded a rotation piece and 3 picks for the right to give Derozan that deal we'd be clowned for eternity.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
3m
DeMar DeRozan is finalizing a three-year, $85 million-plus deal to join the Chicago Bulls, sources tell
@TheAthletic
@Stadium
If the Knicks traded a rotation piece and 3 picks for the right to give Derozan that deal we'd be clowned for eternity.
Yeah no thank you.
That's a deal that won't age well.
are really going for it. Three future firsts gone.
Ball-Lavine-Derozan-Lauri?-Vucevic
Not a bad starting 5
what's interesting to me is that we probably had the pieces to mirror these last 3 big moves by the Bulls (Vucevic at the deadline and Ball/Derozan this week). Of course they already had a very good lead guard in the fold in LaVine.
defending the Bulls but this was likely done in part to appease LaVine. If the Knicks were looking to appease/keep a young superstar I think we'd be "less" bothered by giving up assets for DeRozan
defending the Bulls but this was likely done in part to appease LaVine. If the Knicks were looking to appease/keep a young superstar I think we'd be "less" bothered by giving up assets for DeRozan
As a bulls fan I'd probably be happy about that in the short term. Longer term we've seen this play out time and time again where teams empty their coffers to keep a star only for that star to still force their way out because they're stuck in mediocrity without any assets to take another step forward
defending the Bulls but this was likely done in part to appease LaVine. If the Knicks were looking to appease/keep a young superstar I think we'd be "less" bothered by giving up assets for DeRozan
As a bulls fan I'd probably be happy about that in the short term. Longer term we've seen this play out time and time again where teams empty their coffers to keep a star only for that star to still force their way out because they're stuck in mediocrity without any assets to take another step forward
Fair but Ball is 23, Williams is 20 next season, Dosunmu was expected to go round 1 and he landed there round 2 and they still have Markkanen who is 24 + White who is 21. I think the Bulls have a decent young core.
Out of curiosity, has anyone formally reported the Rose deal is fully guaranteed? I assume so but I haven't seen that actually stated (whereas I did for the Noel and Burks deals).
Out of curiosity, has anyone formally reported the Rose deal is fully guaranteed? I assume so but I haven't seen that actually stated (whereas I did for the Noel and Burks deals).
No. Burks was reported as fully guaranteed but I don't believe Noel has (yet)
are really going for it. Three future firsts gone.
Ball-Lavine-Derozan-Lauri?-Vucevic
Not a bad starting 5
That's brutal defensively lol. Ball is the only average to above average defender there
They are brutal defensively when you completely mess up the rotation. Patrick Williams will be starting, who is a very good defender. Lauri is a RFA and likely gone. Ball is a good defender as well. Caruso is a very good defender and will be getting a lot of time as well. Previous regime did a terrible job bringing in poor defensive players. It is changing quite a bit. Not the old Pistons by any stretch of the imagination, but should be middle of the pack
Also, what are the three future firsts? One from Vucevic, and now one for Derozan? Am I missing one? There was another 1st for Vucevic, but that was the past draft, so is no longer a future first
Markkanen 25 in March (sign and trade?)
White 22 in Feb
Ball 24 in October
Vucevic 31 in October
Williams 20 in August
LaVine 27 in March
Caruso 27
Dosunmu 22 in January
DeRozan 33
Will they win a title? Who knows? Probably not but that's not bad at all.
To take on some bad contracts if we were giving up on free agency next year. Bledsoe or adams bad contracts would have been great to add to fill the cap space.
Markkanen 25 in March (sign and trade?)
White 22 in Feb
Ball 24 in October
Vucevic 31 in October
Williams 20 in August
LaVine 27 in March
Caruso 27
Dosunmu 22 in January
DeRozan 33
Will they win a title? Who knows? Probably not but that's not bad at all.
Yeah, as a Bulls fan I am beyond thrilled with the new regime. Marko Simonivic is also coming over. He is 21 and is an intriguing player
They're being bold. I don't know how much DeRozan has left, but they're certainly putting together a nice team around LaVine. They have a bunch of guys who can score. If they're able to get some good chemistry, then they could put together a run.
kay show is focused on the Knicks not improving while teams like Indy (how?) and Miami are. And teams like ATL and Boston (they actually LOL'd about how much better Boston is than NYK) are much better
Kay is a fucking idiot shit stirrer. He shouldn't be allowed to talk NBA. HE knows baseball, still sucks there too, but he knows the game and nuances. NBA he is fucking lost.
The Knicks got better and have 3-4 young players (not counting rooks) that COULD in fact get better. They probably will, because this team is well coached and players improved from 19-20 to 20-21 under Thibs.
If the Knicks traded a rotation piece and 3 picks for the right to give Derozan that deal we'd be clowned for eternity.
So true. I'm sure the Bulls will be praised though
Reality is Bulls have been just like the Knicks in that neither has been able to attract marquee FAs. This is the reality of how you have to acquire talent. 2nd rounders are lotto tickets, and chances are the 1st rounder will not contribute as much as Derozan.
Since last year, Bulls have added Williams, Vucevic, Ball, Derozan, and Caruso to Lavine, White. That’s a pretty impressive improvement for the outlook of the organization.
kay show is focused on the Knicks not improving while teams like Indy (how?) and Miami are. And teams like ATL and Boston (they actually LOL'd about how much better Boston is than NYK) are much better
Kay is a fucking idiot shit stirrer. He shouldn't be allowed to talk NBA. HE knows baseball, still sucks there too, but he knows the game and nuances. NBA he is fucking lost.
The Knicks got better and have 3-4 young players (not counting rooks) that COULD in fact get better. They probably will, because this team is well coached and players improved from 19-20 to 20-21 under Thibs.
Rant over. Kay sucks
there is a reason his show is going down the shitter, i feel bad for Kagreca stuck with those 2 morons
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
Restricted free agent Talen Horton-Tucker has agreed to a three-year, $32M deal to stay with the Los Angeles Lakers, his agents
@KlutchSports
CEO Rich Paul and Lucas Newton tell ESPN.
With Begleys report, that very much changes my view of these deals. All are neutral or better IMO. Makes the middle path of incremental improvement with flexibility more obvious.
"All of the contracts agreed to on Monday were not fully guaranteed in the final season"
That reads as if the Knicks can't clear them off the books, we need to see what the guarantees look like before we can really judge. Obviously, that's better than fully guaranteed either way.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
50s
Free agent guard Kendrick Nunn has agreed to a two-year deal with the Los Angeles Lakers, source tells ESPN. Deal includes a player option. Nunn turned down significantly more money to chase a title with the Lakers.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
33s
Nunn's deal has a player option in Year 2. He turned down more money with the Knicks and other teams to join the Lakers.
Kay is awful radio. I would listen to Roberts but he has that clown as a co-host.
I had some drivetime yesterday, gave Carton and Roberts a shot, Roberts was trying to talk about the Yankees, and Carton was shouting over Roberts about how Yankees and Mets fans obsess over each other.
So I switched to Michael Kay, and he sounded like such a doofus I gave it all up after 5 minutes and switched to some easy listening music
we couldn't land a damn lead guard with the most $ to spend and so many lead guards available. Its been friggin' decades since we had a lead guard (other than a month of Lin).
Having the ball in Randle's hands for 35 min a night is fool's gold. He's not LBK or Luca. The poor decision making has been his weakness his entire career. Was much better all season last year. Kudos to him for that, but a lead facilitator he is not.
we couldn't land a damn lead guard with the most $ to spend and so many lead guards available. Its been friggin' decades since we had a lead guard (other than a month of Lin).
Having the ball in Randle's hands for 35 min a night is fool's gold. He's not LBK or Luca. The poor decision making has been his weakness his entire career. Was much better all season last year. Kudos to him for that, but a lead facilitator he is not.
@NYPost_Berman
PG Kendrick Nunn off board. PG Dennis Schroder is left. When this process started, one source indicated Schroder was asking for $25M starting salary.
@NYPost_Berman
PG Kendrick Nunn off board. PG Dennis Schroder is left. When this process started, one source indicated Schroder was asking for $25M starting salary.
He wants that Lowry money.
Berman is such a clown. Nothing to do with this specific tweet but his cap math was wildly off earlier lol
Marc Berman
@NYPost_Berman
PG Kendrick Nunn off board. PG Dennis Schroder is left. When this process started, one source indicated Schroder was asking for $25M starting salary.
@NYPost_Berman
PG Kendrick Nunn off board. PG Dennis Schroder is left. When this process started, one source indicated Schroder was asking for $25M starting salary.
He wants that Lowry money.
The word Schroeder is going to morph into a verb in NBA circles to mean "pissed away more $".
let me say I'd def take Schroeder on a one or 2 year deal (in some ways, I'd be concerned on a one year deal given he likely would want to boost his numbers and get paid) but the way Magic Johnson shit on him made me think Schroeder is a bit of a shithead. It seemed personal.
Ian Begley
@IanBegley
·
1m
League source confirms Kendrick Nunn had contract discussions with Knicks during free agency period but chose to sign 2-year, $10M deal w/Lakers instead of signing with NYK or his other other suitors. Athletic first reported NYK/Nunn detail & says NYK offered Nunn more $ than LAL
we couldn't land a damn lead guard with the most $ to spend and so many lead guards available. Its been friggin' decades since we had a lead guard (other than a month of Lin).
Having the ball in Randle's hands for 35 min a night is fool's gold. He's not LBK or Luca. The poor decision making has been his weakness his entire career. Was much better all season last year. Kudos to him for that, but a lead facilitator he is not.
They tried.
So did LAL, Mia, Wash, NO, Chi, Utah, Phx, Cle and they all succeeded.
we couldn't land a damn lead guard with the most $ to spend and so many lead guards available. Its been friggin' decades since we had a lead guard (other than a month of Lin).
Having the ball in Randle's hands for 35 min a night is fool's gold. He's not LBK or Luca. The poor decision making has been his weakness his entire career. Was much better all season last year. Kudos to him for that, but a lead facilitator he is not.
They tried.
So did LAL, Mia, Wash, NO, Chi, Utah, Phx, Cle and they all succeeded.
Who did Wash and Utah get that you’d want? They offered Payne and Nunn more. What more could they have done?
Just because he's the last guy left doesn't mean they will crawl after him. They seem very particular about what they want at PG
I do agree with this, but there have been Schroder rumors for months. He gets to the rim like Thibs likes. He's a supercharged version of Elf for better or worse. He just needs to be more efficient with his scoring, but he can get buckets when he's on.
They had the most $$$ and basically are running back the same team. “They tried” is getting old. Fournier is a nice addition but they needed a PG and once again came up empty.
we couldn't land a damn lead guard with the most $ to spend and so many lead guards available. Its been friggin' decades since we had a lead guard (other than a month of Lin).
Having the ball in Randle's hands for 35 min a night is fool's gold. He's not LBK or Luca. The poor decision making has been his weakness his entire career. Was much better all season last year. Kudos to him for that, but a lead facilitator he is not.
They tried.
So did LAL, Mia, Wash, NO, Chi, Utah, Phx, Cle and they all succeeded.
Who did Wash and Utah get that you’d want? They offered Payne and Nunn more. What more could they have done?
Dinwiddie and Conley are better than anything we have.
I thought Leon Rose was a "play-maker" not just a guy who would be somewhat crafty on draft night for marginal benefit but otherwise not capable of bringing in "move the needle" players.
They had the most $$$ and basically are running back the same team. “They tried” is getting old. Fournier is a nice addition but they needed a PG and once again came up empty.
Lot of people saying this today but offering no explanation how you get a player to sign here as a free agent when you offer more money.
Marc Berman
@NYPost_Berman
·
10s
Don't know if there is any real interest as fallback but I do know Knicks called their starting point guard Elfrid Payton when free agency opened last night. Dennis Schroder, Reggie Jackson still on PG board.
refuse to believe that. If he were brought back I'd have serious concerns about the future of this franchise based on that move alone, I'm not even kidding.
Marc Berman
@NYPost_Berman
·
10s
Don't know if there is any real interest as fallback but I do know Knicks called their starting point guard Elfrid Payton when free agency opened last night. Dennis Schroder, Reggie Jackson still on PG board.
refuse to believe that. If he were brought back I'd have serious concerns about the future of this franchise based on that move alone, I'm not even kidding.
I would too but it's not that crazy to think it's possible. I mean the guy started 63 games last year and for most of the playoffs despite it being obvious to anyone and everyone that he was actively hurting the team.
was never, ever coming here. He openly said he wanted to stay in Utah.
I am not saying he was. I am saying that there were 10+ PGs that were in this summer's FA market and better than what we have and none of them belong to us now. Major fail.
Fourth in the East last year and now Atlanta, Miami and Chicago have now blown by us. We got marginally better while they all "did work".
was never, ever coming here. He openly said he wanted to stay in Utah.
I am not saying he was. I am saying that there were 10+ PGs that were in this summer's FA market and better than what we have and none of them belong to us now. Major fail.
Fourth in the East last year and now Atlanta, Miami and Chicago have now blown by us. We got marginally better while they all "did work".
Oh, I don't disagree they have been oddly unable to improve the PG position (to this point) in 2 off-seasons. I was just pointing out that Conley was a completely unrealistic option. Flat out said he wanted to stay and he and Mitchell are very close (Mitchell essentially calls him his mentor) so that wasn't going to happen.
refuse to believe that. If he were brought back I'd have serious concerns about the future of this franchise based on that move alone, I'm not even kidding.
I would too but it's not that crazy to think it's possible. I mean the guy started 63 games last year and for most of the playoffs despite it being obvious to anyone and everyone that he was actively hurting the team.
Even Thibs pulled the plug at the end. If he's back, they completely deserve to be tarred and feathered, I think this is Berman just looking for engagement.
im not shedding tears over not paying dinwiddie 63 million....
kinda bummed about Nunn as he could have at least competed with guys here. I mean i wanted no part of schroeder and if he is some sort of cancer then forget it, but i mean schroeder at 8 mill is a pretty good deal. I said it earlier but he is basically a good version of Elf (Penatrating guard, ehh distributor, cant shoot) and a better version of elf is still an improvement.
Id like to know what the deal is with the 3rd year. Is it like 8 of 10 mill is guaranteed or like 2 of 10 mill, ha, makes a big diff.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
33s
Nunn's deal has a player option in Year 2. He turned down more money with the Knicks and other teams to join the Lakers.
Too young to chase a ring over playing time and experience.
Could have lined himself up for a big payday.
Now he will be luck to see the court more than 10-15 minutes a game.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
33s
Nunn's deal has a player option in Year 2. He turned down more money with the Knicks and other teams to join the Lakers.
Too young to chase a ring over playing time and experience.
Could have lined himself up for a big payday.
Now he will be luck to see the court more than 10-15 minutes a game.
Yea, that one is weird. The power of Lebron I guess.
Marc Berman
@NYPost_Berman
·
10s
Don't know if there is any real interest as fallback but I do know Knicks called their starting point guard Elfrid Payton when free agency opened last night. Dennis Schroder, Reggie Jackson still on PG board.
if this happens i am going full gmen46
I won’t watch at all next season if they bring that turd back. That’ll be my breaking point.
RE: im not shedding tears over not paying dinwiddie 63 million....
kinda bummed about Nunn as he could have at least competed with guys here. I mean i wanted no part of schroeder and if he is some sort of cancer then forget it, but i mean schroeder at 8 mill is a pretty good deal. I said it earlier but he is basically a good version of Elf (Penatrating guard, ehh distributor, cant shoot) and a better version of elf is still an improvement.
Id like to know what the deal is with the 3rd year. Is it like 8 of 10 mill is guaranteed or like 2 of 10 mill, ha, makes a big diff.
NYK cannot keep getting credit for not executing bad contracts. At some point, they have to do something impactful.
NYK cannot keep getting credit for not executing bad contracts. At some point, they have to do something impactful.
No one is giving them credit for it. The point is why lock yourself into bad deals that don't give you flexibility to eventually get over the hump? It's much easier to move sub $15M contracts
I would say bulls are now ahead of Knicks, the worst part about it lavine probably re ups, not that we have room to sign him next year anyway, but at least we have a strong backup center and SF locked in for next year instead. I think 7/8 seed is most realistic, Boston, indiana and Charlotte duking it out with us for those seeds. First round exit regardless if it’s 7 or 8 or 6 for that matter.
Then we get to run it back again in 2022-2023 with the same team with a now maxed out Julius Randle, really exciting, this front office is incredible. Be nice if we can actually hear them talk and be accountable for that Noel deal.
For the first time in my life I will actually root for the Lakers to win it this year with Melo on that team. He deserves a ring and everyone can leave the guy alone.
If he is good enough to play significant minutes in the playoffs for the Clippers, there is no reason we shouldn’t have some degree of interest. We were going to compete for the top FAs in 2022, then it was 2023 so we accumulated all the picks (for Bronny...lol) and now it has become 2024. Unreal.
As media and fans about the PG depth chart.
I feel like this was their plan all along.
Rose, Fournier, Noel and Burks.
It tough to swallow but they moved quickly on all 4.
As media and fans about the PG depth chart.
I feel like this was their plan all along.
Rose, Fournier, Noel and Burks.
It tough to swallow but they moved quickly on all 4.
There is a lot of smoke around the Kbicks thinking they can get Lillard, perhaps they are not spendingnon PG because of that?
I love how everyone on here thinks there is some magical trade coming. And that these players are signed to be traded. There is no trade coming. You can’t trade free agent signings until December. This is the team that we are playing with plus whatever bum of a pg they spend the rest of their money on.
Do you honestly think people here think the knicks signed these guys to trade them? People who speculate about a trade are talking about IQ/Obi/Mitch/Rookies/picks as the assets that a trade would come from whether it be for sexton, brunson etc. Obviously a Dame trade is a different story but that doesnt appear to be a summer thing so we'll see on that.
I love how everyone on here thinks there is some magical trade coming. And that these players are signed to be traded. There is no trade coming. You can’t trade free agent signings until December. This is the team that we are playing with plus whatever bum of a pg they spend the rest of their money on.
Nobkdy said anything about trading the players they signed, gice it a rest we get it you are miserable...
Knicks and mavs discussed a sign and trade for Bullock, doesnt know if that could still be an option
Why would the Mavs do that?
Usually for 1 of 2 reasons. Either they want to save cap space by sending the Knicks a player or two back or the Knicks kick in a 2nd round pick or something to get a trade exception.
kinda bummed about Nunn as he could have at least competed with guys here. I mean i wanted no part of schroeder and if he is some sort of cancer then forget it, but i mean schroeder at 8 mill is a pretty good deal. I said it earlier but he is basically a good version of Elf (Penatrating guard, ehh distributor, cant shoot) and a better version of elf is still an improvement.
Id like to know what the deal is with the 3rd year. Is it like 8 of 10 mill is guaranteed or like 2 of 10 mill, ha, makes a big diff.
NYK cannot keep getting credit for not executing bad contracts. At some point, they have to do something impactful.
kinda bummed about Nunn as he could have at least competed with guys here. I mean i wanted no part of schroeder and if he is some sort of cancer then forget it, but i mean schroeder at 8 mill is a pretty good deal. I said it earlier but he is basically a good version of Elf (Penatrating guard, ehh distributor, cant shoot) and a better version of elf is still an improvement.
Id like to know what the deal is with the 3rd year. Is it like 8 of 10 mill is guaranteed or like 2 of 10 mill, ha, makes a big diff.
NYK cannot keep getting credit for not executing bad contracts. At some point, they have to do something impactful.
You mean after being pathetic for so long and signing expensive Free agents that kept leading us nowhere- getting a 4th seed with the season they had - you refer that to "not impactful?"
How "impactful" were the Nets before getting Durant, Irving and Harden? How many playoff series did they win?
You see how the Nets became a title threat. You see how Lakers got LeBron and Davis. So why do you want to settle for non-superstars?
with Bullock in a sign and trade to dallas for Brunson?
I don't know. Brunson is a UFA next offseason. I'd love to be able to bring in Brunson though. And if we can extend even better. I'd trade Mitch for that.
Still out there, and teams with cap room and the PG need are dwindling. Neither one great, but both would protect against a Rose injury and/or the other PG options on the roster not working out.
So do the Knicks get Reggie Jackson or Dennis Schroder?
Still out there, and teams with cap room and the PG need are dwindling. Neither one great, but both would protect against a Rose injury and/or the other PG options on the roster not working out.
It’s going to have to be RJ, Obi and Quickley plus picks, who are the throw ins, I guess knox, gets us closer and Luca that’s $24.6 million. Assuming we either extend Randle or use the reamining cap space for another really good bench player we are not able to trade for dame until after December because salaries don’t work and all these excellent bench signings wouldn’t be eligible to be traded? Does anyone know if a player resigns with the same team are they excluded from the free agents can’t be traded rule? Let’s say we can trade a free agent signing then throw in Noel and that probably gets us close enough.
We end up with
Dame
Burks
Fournier
Randle
Mitch
Rose
Grimes
McBride
Taj
The guy from texas
That wound be a bad defensive team, but probably fit a max the following year. Is a core of lillard, Randle and let’s say beal enough to win a ring with ring chasers? Prob not
It’s going to have to be RJ, Obi and Quickley plus picks, who are the throw ins, I guess knox, gets us closer and Luca that’s $24.6 million. Assuming we either extend Randle or use the reamining cap space for another really good bench player we are not able to trade for dame until after December because salaries don’t work and all these excellent bench signings wouldn’t be eligible to be traded? Does anyone know if a player resigns with the same team are they excluded from the free agents can’t be traded rule? Let’s say we can trade a free agent signing then throw in Noel and that probably gets us close enough.
We end up with
Dame
Burks
Fournier
Randle
Mitch
Rose
Grimes
McBride
Taj
The guy from texas
That wound be a bad defensive team, but probably fit a max the following year. Is a core of lillard, Randle and let’s say beal enough to win a ring with ring chasers? Prob not
Don't forget Noel 3 for 32 million.
I would absolutely love to see Reggie Jackson come here
I think he’s a great player. He was electric in the playoffs. I think he would fit in perfectly with the culture here too. Smart player, hard worker, passionate dude. A combination of Jackson/Rose/IQ running the PG minutes would be great to start the season IMO, and who knows McBride and/or Luca might fight their way into some minutes by midseason. Or even if we gave to cut Luca and trade Knox to make it happen I think it would be absolutely worth it.
if they sign Jackson I’d give them an solid A- for the offseason— only real knocks I would have are 1) too many protections on the Charlotte pick and 2) too much money/years for Noel given he’s a backup 5, but hey those things are minor issues in my book…. Buttttt right now since they haven’t addressed PG really it’s tough to say what the grade is. That’s what makes me feel like there’s gotta be some move that’s coming that might give us a bit of an “aha” moment (not saying it’s gonna be some genius blockbuster trade, but SOMETHING will happen I believe simply because this just feels like we’re one solid piece away from completing a pretty nice puzzle in my book.
Seems like he is an agent of some sort! I have missed it, do either him or Carl have anything new? They still need a guard to start ahead of Rose. I think they see Quickley as a 3rd guard and McBride is a rookie.
Derrick Rose - will be 33 when the season starts. Despite a long history of high usage and injuries, still flashes explosive athletic ability and did so repeatedly during his NYK tenure last year. Probably best suited as dynamic bench player as overuse presents a real risk of injury. He is also highly regarded as leader.
Immanual Quickley - terrific rookie year despite low 1st round draft spot. Good shooter with limitless range and an effective floater. Shot creation skills need development. While he is a willing passer and low turnover guy, he doesn't appear to be a quarterback type of guard (although certainly too early to close the book on this possibility). He will add strength and that should result in above average defensive prowess (long arms, good awareness and effort already evident last year).
Miles (Deuce) McBride - Intense, competitive guard. While he could develop into a Derek Fisher or Patrick Beverly type (great defensively but relegated to off-ball duty on offense) I think he will ultimately be more than that on offense e.g. a 60-70% of Jrue Holiday. But the key word there is ultimately. Its hard to imagine him playing a lead guard role this upcoming year.
Alec Burks - Skillful, big guard who has historically been brittle. Showed a lot as a scorer last year with a spike in crunch time scoring prowess. Positive player in this stable of guards but I still wouldn't be thrilled with him having a major lead/facilitating role.
So, in summary we have two older, injury prone guys who at times, are legit scoring guards. And two young guys who are promising but no indication that they have skills to play a primary quarterbacking role at this point.
Where do we go from here?
1. Major trade targeting Dame or Fox: this obviously would cost a ton of assets but much of the necessary salary match cannot be traded until December. A combo of Obi, Mitch, IQ etc. (plus picks) doesn't allow for a salary match so we'd have to wait to include guys like Noel. It's hard to imagine this happening any time soon. In addition, this front office, while somewhat creative and averse to bad deals such as Bargnani years ago, doesn't show any signs of having Pat Riley like ability to make things happen.
2. Major trade targeting Sexton: this horse probably left the barn when HOU drafted Green leaving Mobley to CLE and thus removing Obi as a desirable centerpiece for a Sexton trade.
3. Lesser trade. Possible targets Derrick White, DeJounte Murray, Goran Dragic. No rumors to this effect.
4. FA. NYK once again struck out on all PG targets to this point. What remains is not attractive: Reggie Jackson, Dennis Schroeder.
5. Sign and Trade. If Reggie Bullock + a #1 for Jalen Brunson is a possibility, its very much worth pursuing. Brunson isn't elite by any stretch but he is a terrific guy to have in your PG rotation. He's exceptionally bright and hard working, physically strong. While a Kyle Lowry comp is too lofty, Brunson has a lot of the same traits at a similar age.
8-10 mill next year to make sure they operate over the cap. Like that seems like a dumb reason to not sign a schroeder or jackson. Im all for Jackson, i think at 8 mill he is a great deal. And as much as i dont really think schroeder is good he is a still a great deal at 8 mill. He isnt a bad NBA player he just isnt worth 20 mill or whatever numbers people were throwing around.
RE: RE: Dragic was interviewed about being in toronto
I don't know enough about Brunson to comment but two things stand out. One, Brunson is going to get paid next offseason and Obi is only in the second year of his deal. Huge advantage for the Obi side there. Two, we have no depth at PF. It would basically be Randle and I'd assume Taj as the backup PF. They'd need to address that.
id like to see another year of obi before trading him for...
a guy like brunson. Sure he is only a year older, but he has been in the league for 3 seasons. I know he hasnt got the chance to play 30+ a night, but Obi hasnt got to play 15 yet and only had his rookie year.
RE: RE: RE: Dragic was interviewed about being in toronto
and he said he hasnt heard from them and said he is waiting for the third team to comment..
So sounds like he is going to end up flipped to 3rd team
I would assume OKC or maybe the Spurs.
Best case is Dallas (with Kleiber or Powell as trade bait) which may pave the way for a Brunson trade to NYK.
I'd love Brunson but I think there's little to no chance Dallas trades him. They love him. Even if they get Dragic they probably keep him as Dragic can play off the ball.
I don't know enough about Brunson to comment but two things stand out. One, Brunson is going to get paid next offseason and Obi is only in the second year of his deal. Huge advantage for the Obi side there. Two, we have no depth at PF. It would basically be Randle and I'd assume Taj as the backup PF. They'd need to address that.
I'm actaully sorta excited about this even though he was banged up most of last year. He's the latest in a LONG list of past their prime PGs to come to MSG:
Bibby
Baron Davis
Kidd
Mark Jackson (second stint)
Billups
Calderon
and a bunch of others...
I'm actaully sorta excited about this even though he was banged up most of last year. He's the latest in a LONG list of past their prime PGs to come to MSG:
Bibby
Baron Davis
Kidd
Mark Jackson (second stint)
Billups
Calderon
and a bunch of others...
He does sorta fit on that list but most of those guys were in literally the last gasps of their careers. If his knees allow it and that's a biggggg if, he's still in the upper half of NBA starting pg's
I know I shouldn't get my hopes up, that he was cooked last year with the Cs, but I can't help it.
He couldn't stay healthy, but he averaged 19ppg on 42% from the field. Not a 3 point shooter but he never was anyway.
He took 8.2 3s per game last year, tied for 12th in the league.
I don't think that volume is abnormal for him, but by todays standards hitting 36-37% isn't great. I've never categorized him as a shooter. I think he has one really good year for shooting 3s.
I don't think that volume is abnormal for him, but by todays standards hitting 36-37% isn't great. I've never categorized him as a shooter. I think he has one really good year for shooting 3s.
True, but as a PG you often end up with the ball with the shot clock running out and have to force shots. The rate is good enough that defenders have to respect it and can’t back off him. Sure beats Elfrid’s 28% anyway. :-)
I know I shouldn't get my hopes up, that he was cooked last year with the Cs, but I can't help it.
He couldn't stay healthy, but he averaged 19ppg on 42% from the field. Not a 3 point shooter but he never was anyway.
He took 8.2 3s per game last year, tied for 12th in the league.
I don't think that volume is abnormal for him, but by todays standards hitting 36-37% isn't great. I've never categorized him as a shooter. I think he has one really good year for shooting 3s.
Agreed, not a great percentage but he does take a lot.
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
@KellyIkoNBA
The Houston Rockets are working to complete a multi-year deal with free agent center Daniel Theis, sources tell @TheAthletic.
@ShamsCharania
Free agent Tim Hardaway Jr. has agreed to a four-year, $72 million deal to return to the Dallas Mavericks, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.
@TheHoopCentral
REPORT: Mike Conley re-signs 3-Year, $68 Million with Jazz, via
@ShamsCharania
@ShamsCharania
Breaking: Five-time NBA All-Star Jimmy Butler is expected to agree to a maximum contract extension with the Miami Heat when the league year opens on Aug. 6, sources tell me and @JonKrawczynski.
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
The Chicago Bulls are sending Tomas Satoransky, Garrett Temple and a second-round pick to New Orleans for Lonzo Ball, who's signing a four-year, $85M contract, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.
@wojespn
Free agent G Alec Burks has agreed to a three-year, $30M contract to stay with the New York Knicks, sources tell ESPN.
@wojespn
·
16s
Free agent C Nerlens Noel is returning to the New York Knicks on a three-year, $32M contract, his agent
@GeorgeLangberg
tells ESPN. Tom Thibodeau keeps his rim protector.
@ChrisBHaynes
Restricted free agent Jarrett Allen and the Cleveland Cavaliers have reached an agreement on a five-year, $100 million extension, league sources tell @YahooSports.
@KeithSmithNBA
Knicks will take about $20M off their cap space to re-sign Noel and Burks.
Still should have $30M+ left.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
Free agent Kelly Olynyk has agreed to a three-year, $37M deal with the Detroit Pistons, his agent Jeff Schwartz of
@excelbasketball
tells ESPN.
And both moveable contracts if they need to be
@KeithSmithNBA
Knicks will take about $20M off their cap space to re-sign Noel and Burks.
Still should have $30M+ left.
I believe the Knicks can go up to the cap and use their MLE for one of those contracts.
Quote:
Keith Smith
@KeithSmithNBA
Knicks will take about $20M off their cap space to re-sign Noel and Burks.
Still should have $30M+ left.
I believe the Knicks can go up to the cap and use their MLE for one of those contracts.
Bobby Marks
@BobbyMarks42
New York is sitting at $17M in room but that includes $15M in cap holds of Derrick Rose, Reggie Bullock and the $3.3M non guaranteed contract of Luca Vildoza.
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
Welp, I’m looking for a new team to root for
Quote:
Keith Smith
@KeithSmithNBA
Knicks will take about $20M off their cap space to re-sign Noel and Burks.
Still should have $30M+ left.
I believe the Knicks can go up to the cap and use their MLE for one of those contracts.
nah - if you operate as an under the cap team you don't have access to the MLE. They give you the room exception when you're under the cap - which is about half the MLE.
They now have about $30m left in space. I don’t get their plan.
Burks defends, can shoot, and can operate as a secondary ball handler when needed. That's fair value for him and an easy to move deal. Not so sure about Noel.
They now have about $30m left in space. I don’t get their plan.
10 million is nothing for solid role players who are going to give you 25 minutes and can start whem needed..
Plus the cap will start shooting up more and more
@ChrisBHaynes
·
33s
Free agent guard Cameron Payne has agreed to re-sign with the Phoenix Suns on a three-year, $19 million deal, league sources tell
@YahooSports
.
Ian Begley
@IanBegley
·
10s
Alec Burks’ 3-year agreement with the Knicks is fully guaranteed, per SNY sources. ESPN first reported that Burks/Knicks have a 3-year, $30 million agreement.
Put it this way: If we signed two guys, both 35-40 minute starters, to just $10M per year in today's market, more than likely that would then mean that our team is not going to be very good.
35-40 minute / night starting five guys start at $20M /year.
small rosters (compared to the other sports) mean guys get a bigger piece of the pie.
I'm meh on the Burks and Noel deals. Both are probably worth that amount, just not sure i want the knicks to be the team to be paying it. The main concern is the Noel deal. Just don't want to be paying a backup center that much
I'm meh on the Burks and Noel deals. Both are probably worth that amount, just not sure i want the knicks to be the team to be paying it. The main concern is the Noel deal. Just don't want to be paying a backup center that much
Money was best just not years
How does Cameron Payne sign for 3 years $19 million at a position of need for us and we spend $10 per on Noel and Burks. Mitch is going to cost at least $15 now
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
35s
Duncan Robinson – host of the
@TheLongshotPod
– has agreed to a 5-year, $90M contract to stay with the Miami Heat, his agent Jason Glushon of
@GlushonSM
tells ESPN. The deal, largest ever for an undrafted player, also includes an ETO after the fourth year.
How does Cameron Payne sign for 3 years $19 million at a position of need for us and we spend $10 per on Noel and Burks. Mitch is going to cost at least $15 now
It's pretty clear that Payne took less to stay in Phoenix where he resurrected his career
How many SGs can you have?
IQ/Burks/Grimes are currently on the roster. You have 3 competent bench SGs? I don't buy it.
How many SGs can you have?
IQ/Burks/Grimes are currently on the roster. You have 3 competent bench SGs? I don't buy it.
I think it is more about flexibility. Q can play the 1 and 2. Burks can handle the point and play the 2 and 3. Grimes is a 2 and 3. There is still room for Fournier if they go in that direction.
How many SGs can you have?
IQ/Burks/Grimes are currently on the roster. You have 3 competent bench SGs? I don't buy it.
fournier starts...Burks back up 3, grimes back up 2 and quick back up point..
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
Hey KWALL! Not bad for a 'bust'.
Quote:
am skeptical they sign Fournier now.
How many SGs can you have?
IQ/Burks/Grimes are currently on the roster. You have 3 competent bench SGs? I don't buy it.
fournier starts...Burks back up 3, grimes back up 2 and quick back up point..
Burks is a combo 1/2 imo. Same with IQ.
Because as the cap goes up a Burks gets more expensive.
it is 45 minutez into free agency holy crap
It's boring because Burks is 30 years old with no upside and we don't know what Barrett can be.
Hot and cold is something that can change with the next shot. You can't score from the bench.
Thibs was obviously in love with Burks and believed he would make his next shot, even though Burks is a very up and down player himself.
Boring.
How does Cameron Payne sign for 3 years $19 million at a position of need for us and we spend $10 per on Noel and Burks. Mitch is going to cost at least $15 now
You honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. Burks at $10M per is not awful. He was incredibly valuable to this team last season, even filling in at the point on occasion. He’s a much better player than you want to admit because he’s not the sexy name
Burks is a significantly better outside shooter than Ross is. How many guys can you get for $10M/ who shoot 42% from 3?
Quote:
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
Hey KWALL! Not bad for a 'bust'.
You are a treasure, Stan…don’t ever change.
You are like an awful journeyman baseball player on an 0-800 streak that flips the bat and puffs his chest after finally getting a soft bloop single.
It's boring because Burks is 30 years old with no upside and we don't know what Barrett can be.
Hot and cold is something that can change with the next shot. You can't score from the bench.
Thibs was obviously in love with Burks and believed he would make his next shot, even though Burks is a very up and down player himself.
Boring.
Burks and Barrett cant play together to finish games?
That is insane.
10 million for 2 bench players is not a bargain when you have active cap space. You sign those guys when your over there cap to mid level deals to fill out your roster for a championship run. The problem is Thibs thinks he can win a championship with average guys.
Quote:
In comment 15320152 Anakim said:
Quote:
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
Lonzo Ball has agreed to a four-year, $85 million deal with the Chicago Bulls, CEO of Klutch Sports Rich Paul tells
@TheAthletic
Hey KWALL! Not bad for a 'bust'.
You are a treasure, Stan…don’t ever change.
You are like an awful journeyman baseball player on an 0-800 streak that flips the bat and puffs his chest after finally getting a soft bloop single.
He didn’t even hit a soft bloop single on this. Tell me exactly which team Ball has made better? Every team he’s on sucks ass, misses the playoffs and they move him
10 million for 2 bench players is not a bargain when you have active cap space. You sign those guys when your over there cap to mid level deals to fill out your roster for a championship run. The problem is Thibs thinks he can win a championship with average guys.
What? Next year you’d need to sign a Burks type player. Except next year he costs you $14 million.
Burks and Barrett cant play together to finish games?
Sure they can. But the evidence is that the pattern of Thibs sitting Barrett in the fourth corresponded with Burks being on the court.
Burks isn’t making or braking the Knicks season. It doesn’t matter that he is a better shooter than Ross. You just need a guy to fill the cap space for 1 year and you try again next year. So next year if we want to sign Beal we are going have to throw in a protected first to trade Noel and Burks to a team with cap space. It’s just dumb cap management.
Burks isn’t making or braking the Knicks season. It doesn’t matter that he is a better shooter than Ross. You just need a guy to fill the cap space for 1 year and you try again next year. So next year if we want to sign Beal we are going have to throw in a protected first to trade Noel and Burks to a team with cap space. It’s just dumb cap management.
In all likelihood if they’re signing Beal it’s in a sign and trade and they move those two deals with a second rounder.
You’d rather have a worse shooter because he has a one year deal? Miami just got Lowry with zero cap space for $30 mill a year. We’ll be fine.
Guessing their attention right now is towards Dinwiddie and/or DeRozan but just a guess.
And lets wait and see what the finish product is before we stsrt to go overboard eith the they dont have a plan
$10 million for a guy who shoots 42% from 3 is not a contract you have to attach a first round pick to to move. Trust me I know.
Burks isn’t making or braking the Knicks season. It doesn’t matter that he is a better shooter than Ross. You just need a guy to fill the cap space for 1 year and you try again next year. So next year if we want to sign Beal we are going have to throw in a protected first to trade Noel and Burks to a team with cap space. It’s just dumb cap management.
Yeah you’re right man. You have it all figured out. Why didn’t you give Rose a call and run this idea by him? It’s obvious that as an organization these guys slept through the past couple of months and didn’t have time to think of that or do their homework on the situations at hand and what’s best for the team. They woke up this morning unprepared and just said “hey, fuck it. Let’s just sign Burks and Noel to 3 years deals and call it a day!”.
Quote:
Not true you hope you aren’t wasting money on a Burks next year and your maxing out Beal or lavine. Then grimes or McBride are your new Burks on a cheap contracts and Then you sign whatever Burks type player that is available for your mini MLE. With Burks and noel eating up cap space now you have to add a pick to trade then to get cap room to sign the potential star. You guys say these contracts are tradeable, but you have to find a team that is willing to take on contracts with their cap space which costs a pick or to a team at the all star break with an expiring deal. Not that easy to do
$10 million for a guy who shoots 42% from 3 is not a contract you have to attach a first round pick to to move. Trust me I know.
Exactly
Phew. Great news.
BigBlueshock - yes it appears that the front office said f it let’s sign 2 back up guys to $20 million. Obviously these deals are right above the MLE, so it entices these guys to stay. Sometimes you have to let guys go, there are plenty of noel’s and Burks out there to have on 1 year deals
@StevePopper
·
8m
Heard since draft night that Knicks were not standing pat - so even though we're 57 minutes in, not thinking they are done tonight (or, you know, in the period that deals are actually supposed to happen).
BigBlueshock - yes it appears that the front office said f it let’s sign 2 back up guys to $20 million. Obviously these deals are right above the MLE, so it entices these guys to stay. Sometimes you have to let guys go, there are plenty of noel’s and Burks out there to have on 1 year deals
I’m telling you no it won’t. I work in basketball.
BigBlueshock - yes it appears that the front office said f it let’s sign 2 back up guys to $20 million. Obviously these deals are right above the MLE, so it entices these guys to stay. Sometimes you have to let guys go, there are plenty of noel’s and Burks out there to have on 1 year deals
No, there are not. You don’t think Rose and company have done their homework? I think they have earned the right for us to be a bit patient to see what their plan is. Burks and Noel are much better players than you want to admit, that’s the problem here. And we don’t know yet what the next moves are, so why the instant freak out? We are one hour into free agency, lol. Do you know they don’t have trades lined up?
Maybe their plan sucks. We will find out. But I just think freaking out with absolutely no context to their thinking is stupid, and a waste of energy
Doubt it. They have plenty of cap space.
Hell to the no on Dennis.
Mitch/Noel
Randle/Obi
RJ/Grimes
??/Burks
??/IQ/McBride/Vildoza
Basically have 30 mil to fill two starting spots. Gets iffy if Rose is brought back too.
AJR - that’s fine it will cost something. And if Knicks have a shot at a big free agent the cost will be higher because they will be desperate to trade those guys for caproom.
Not sure where this salary cap explosion talk is coming from:
21-22 - $112 million
22-23 - $115.7 million
23-24 - $119.2 million
I would t consider that to be an explosion. Check your facts before you make statements like that.
AJR - that’s fine it will cost something. And if Knicks have a shot at a big free agent the cost will be higher because they will be desperate to trade those guys for caproom.
Not sure where this salary cap explosion talk is coming from:
21-22 - $112 million
22-23 - $115.7 million
23-24 - $119.2 million
I would t consider that to be an explosion. Check your facts before you make statements like that.
Ok, we get it. Can you stop bitching on this thread about the same thing?
I don't know. Shall we conduct a poll of whether fanbases around the league are over the moon over bench signings?
Burks contract is very reasonable, look at what other wing players have been getting. He shoots over 40% from 3, plays defense and can play both guard positions.
The Noel deal is less appealing, but it’s probably a signal that they’d rather keep Noel at that number rather than pay Mitch Robinson anywhere near what Jarrett Allen got long term. Mitch is probably on his way out, and if that’s the case then Noel at 10 per is a solid signing for the minutes he’s going to play.
@wojespn
·
1m
Free agent Zach Collins has agreed to a three-year, $22M deal with the Spurs, his agent Mark Bartelstein of
@PrioritySports tells ESPN.
@wojespn
·
1m
Free agent Zach Collins has agreed to a three-year, $22M deal with the Spurs, his agent Mark Bartelstein of
@PrioritySports tells ESPN.
Would much rather pay 3 for 60 combined for Burks and Noel than the money San Antonio is paying for McDermott and Collins
We also have two posters that have been on point with their information and have earned the right to say what they say. Carl is one and stated in the other thread and this one that they have been working on trades with three separate teams. Let's see where the chips fall.
Burks contract is very reasonable, look at what other wing players have been getting. He shoots over 40% from 3, plays defense and can play both guard positions.
The Noel deal is less appealing, but it’s probably a signal that they’d rather keep Noel at that number rather than pay Mitch Robinson anywhere near what Jarrett Allen got long term. Mitch is probably on his way out, and if that’s the case then Noel at 10 per is a solid signing for the minutes he’s going to play.
^This. I leave it to others who know more about the cap, but the consensus seems to be that this is the going rate for players like Burks and Nerlens. I assume the guarantee for Burks means that he likely had other suitors. My recollection is that Nerlens also did. The Knicks were never going to replace all of their players with FAs or second round draft picks.
If these 2 end up on this roster then this will be very disappointing
Dinwiddie
DeRozan
Powell
among them.
I am content with these two signings, yes.
If these 2 end up on this roster then this will be very disappointing
Disappointing? Lol. You should probably just give up at this point. Having these two guys, who were huge contributors to the team last season being on the team would be disappointing? I honestly don’t think you have a clue on market value.
As far as the December thing, I’m not sure about that but how are sign and trades getting done immediately if they can’t be traded until December?
Wouldn't hold your breath expecting Burks or Noel to be traded.
Also, kudos to Anita Marks for talking baseball with some failed former Marlins executive during the start of NBA free agency - awesome programming choice there on ESPN, which pays a fortune for NBA games.
Wouldn't hold your breath expecting Burks or Noel to be traded.
Who is set to be a FA in 2024?
Quote:
are not going past 3 yr deals because they want to maintain cap flexibility for the summer of 2024.
Wouldn't hold your breath expecting Burks or Noel to be traded.
Who is set to be a FA in 2024?
Booker
Wouldn't hold your breath expecting Burks or Noel to be traded.
Haha! So now it’s the summer of 2024? Good lord Knicks fans! Stay patient my friends! 😂🤣😂
Quote:
are not going past 3 yr deals because they want to maintain cap flexibility for the summer of 2024.
Wouldn't hold your breath expecting Burks or Noel to be traded.
Haha! So now it’s the summer of 2024? Good lord Knicks fans! Stay patient my friends! 😂🤣😂
If they are making the playoffs every year i can be patient, i wont be patient suring tanking
4th year team option
haha
I didn’t think you were being a wise ass. I said I don’t know anything about that rule, so maybe I’m ignorant but we see sign and trades every year. Player signs a contract with current team with the intention of being traded. And they don’t wait until December. So I guess I’m just curious where you get the December thing from?
I see a trade coming, especially if Rose is coming back to..
welp he is your starter almost 15 million a year
Nope. Totally capped out.
See what trade they have in mind...
Which kid is coming off the bench? IQ or MM?
Hmmm, are you sure? It depends on when they sign guys.
Payton becomes Rose.
IQ takes over the sixth man spot?
Randle-Obi-?
Fournier-Burks-?
RJ-Grimes-IQ
Rose-Vildoza-McBride
Two thoughts - Knicks may have bigger plans for Vildoza than we know. Also, since Thibs loves Taj, and I am pretty sure Sims will make the team, a trade involving Mitch still seems like a possibility here.
Quote:
give or take because of cap holds can go over cap
Hmmm, are you sure? It depends on when they sign guys.
they had 7 with rose's cap hold, i think Noel's and Burks were low but i am not sure if they can jse their holds to sign them because of cap rules..
So they have at least 7, can get to 10 releasing Vildoza, if they can trade knox they can get to 15..
I do think they have a trade coming
I'm not expecting anything from Luca.
There are some bad deals flying around out there.
Fournier/Grimes
Rj/burks/knox
Rj/toppin
Mitch/noel
11 guaranteed contracts am i missing someone?
Fournier/Grimes
Rj/burks/knox
Rj/toppin
Mitch/noel
11 guaranteed contracts am i missing someone?
McBride!
Fournier/Grimes
Rj/burks/knox
Rj/toppin
Mitch/noel
11 guaranteed contracts am i missing someone?
McBride and Sims
Quote:
Rose/iq
Fournier/Grimes
Rj/burks/knox
Rj/toppin
Mitch/noel
11 guaranteed contracts am i missing someone?
McBride and Sims
they are 2nd round picks, they are not guaranteex
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If Noel and Burks get traded as part of a bigger deal then I will be more than happy, but don’t players have to wait until December to be traded?
If these 2 end up on this roster then this will be very disappointing
Disappointing? Lol. You should probably just give up at this point. Having these two guys, who were huge contributors to the team last season being on the team would be disappointing? I honestly don’t think you have a clue on market value.
As far as the December thing, I’m not sure about that but how are sign and trades getting done immediately if they can’t be traded until December?
because they're being signed as part of a sign-and-trade. It's all the same transation. When you just sign as a regular free agent, you can't be traded right away.
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Rose/iq
Fournier/Grimes
Rj/burks/knox
Rj/toppin
Mitch/noel
11 guaranteed contracts am i missing someone?
McBride!
He was a second round pick so not guaranteed.
They're gearing up for 2024 when his guys become available (Booker and Towns). Although I for one am tired of this game.
I'm not expecting anything from Luca.
adam-- I agree I like McBride. My thinking is that since McBride is a rookie it might take him until a little into the season to get real minutes. The thing about guys like Luca who come over from Europe is they often don't have a super high ceiling but they often at least have a decent floor just based on being fundamentally sound, smart, and experienced. If we sign no one else I could see Luca getting minutes opening day just because he actually has professional experience. I think McBride can overtake him over the course of the season. I'm not gonna sleep on Luca though-- maybe simply because I keep getting flashes of Pablo Prigioni when I think of him haha
That is crazy. I love Rose, but come on.
Obviously the Knicks were very happy with the team last year
I am happy with today, they rewarded the players that carried them into the playoffs and added a solid shooter that average 18 a game.
Let's hope the kids keep developing and build for the future.
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But I wouldn't sleep on McBride as the backup point either.
I'm not expecting anything from Luca.
adam-- I agree I like McBride. My thinking is that since McBride is a rookie it might take him until a little into the season to get real minutes. The thing about guys like Luca who come over from Europe is they often don't have a super high ceiling but they often at least have a decent floor just based on being fundamentally sound, smart, and experienced. If we sign no one else I could see Luca getting minutes opening day just because he actually has professional experience. I think McBride can overtake him over the course of the season. I'm not gonna sleep on Luca though-- maybe simply because I keep getting flashes of Pablo Prigioni when I think of him haha
Lol. Fair enough.
But this offseason definitely puts a different scope on last season and how they chose to utilize their cap space. That was a mistake.
Lastly the idea of preserving cap space for 2024 is outrageous. Enough with that it’s a joke.
You’re joking right?
But this offseason definitely puts a different scope on last season and how they chose to utilize their cap space. That was a mistake.
Lastly the idea of preserving cap space for 2024 is outrageous. Enough with that it’s a joke.
So you want them to give out 4 year deals?
I believe they would still have some space next year. The Noah cap charge comes off the books and they can let Knox go for nothing.
I.e. they have more room to bring on another player.
Fournier and Burks can both create in ways Payton and Bullock couldn't. I think it'll be a real team effort on the offensive end.
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year of patching it together at PG. Hopefully Vildoza and/or Quickley can give them good minutes. They never had a chance at Paul and I woudln't have gone near Lowery at that number he got - but I think pursuing Dinwiddie or Graham would have been worthwhile. There's been so many missed opportunities at that position - it's getting old.
Fournier and Burks can both create in ways Payton and Bullock couldn't. I think it'll be a real team effort on the offensive end.
Agreed. And we should see more ball movement leading to a more efficient and productive offense.
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I’m a big fan of Burks and think that is a good deal. I also understand bringing back a good team and rewarding the contributors.
But this offseason definitely puts a different scope on last season and how they chose to utilize their cap space. That was a mistake.
Lastly the idea of preserving cap space for 2024 is outrageous. Enough with that it’s a joke.
So you want them to give out 4 year deals?
Not to speak for him but I think his point is…been there, done that. And it never works out how we all dreamed it would.
I'd assume Rose starts.
I.e. they have more room to bring on another player.
@NYPost_Berman
·
17s
Knicks deal with Derrick Rose of 3 years, $43 million is cap space. Had a chance to use his early bird rights but Rose’s value was higher. Roll it back. Cap room gone.
Welp, nevermind. He's the starter pending a trade.
Mike Vorkunov
@MikeVorkunov
·
1m
The cap virtuoso
@johnhollinger
tells me they have about $8 mil left if they renounce the rights to Reggie Bullock and they cut Luca Vildoza. Bullock is reportedly going to Dallas. Knicks announced Vildoza as part of their Summer League roster this afternoon
This is what i am thinking, otherwise bringing noel back at 10 doesnt make sense..your not paying a backup 10 million
Mike Vorkunov
@MikeVorkunov
·
1m
The cap virtuoso
@johnhollinger
tells me they have about $8 mil left if they renounce the rights to Reggie Bullock and they cut Luca Vildoza. Bullock is reportedly going to Dallas. Knicks announced Vildoza as part of their Summer League roster this afternoon
I'd be so much happier if they gave that 8 mil to Cam Payne in a 3 year 24 mil deal, which is 25% more than he got.
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I’m a big fan of Burks and think that is a good deal. I also understand bringing back a good team and rewarding the contributors.
But this offseason definitely puts a different scope on last season and how they chose to utilize their cap space. That was a mistake.
Lastly the idea of preserving cap space for 2024 is outrageous. Enough with that it’s a joke.
So you want them to give out 4 year deals?
I want them and everyone to stop talking about pipedreams. Remember how heralded the 2021 FA class was 18 months ago? And then 2022 and going back to 2020 etc. Trust me if Booker or one of the other stars in 2024 want to be a Knick, they will be. It’s the current state of the NBA.
I would have been far more aggressive on the younger RFA and just younger free agents but that I still don’t hate the signings. The Fournier and Rose deals are overpays though.
Rose still has plenty to prove in my book. We will see.
I agree with this. I was fine with Burks and Noel, but Rose scares me. There’s a reason they said he could only play around 20 minutes per game when he got here. And he hasn’t gotten younger that I know about. Oh well, not much we can do about it I guess. Hope for the best!
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In comment 15320411 TyreeHelmet said:
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I’m a big fan of Burks and think that is a good deal. I also understand bringing back a good team and rewarding the contributors.
But this offseason definitely puts a different scope on last season and how they chose to utilize their cap space. That was a mistake.
Lastly the idea of preserving cap space for 2024 is outrageous. Enough with that it’s a joke.
So you want them to give out 4 year deals?
I want them and everyone to stop talking about pipedreams. Remember how heralded the 2021 FA class was 18 months ago? And then 2022 and going back to 2020 etc. Trust me if Booker or one of the other stars in 2024 want to be a Knick, they will be. It’s the current state of the NBA.
I would have been far more aggressive on the younger RFA and just younger free agents but that I still don’t hate the signings. The Fournier and Rose deals are overpays though.
Rose still has plenty to prove in my book. We will see.
Isn't that what they are doing? They are spending now and not saying next year. However, they are being smart with these contracts all expiring at the same time. So, that isn't a pipedream. That's reality. Nobody is saying we are all or nothing on FA in 2024 just that we are in position for that year.
Who says no?
Atlanta, nets, bucks, Sixers and heat are def a big step above knicks.
Who says no?
I do. Why would we SnT fir Schroeder when we could have signed him outright?
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Vildoza to the Lakers for Schroeder S&T at a 3 year 50 mil deal.
Who says no?
I do. Why would we SnT fir Schroeder when we could have signed him outright?
Because you couldn't have also signed everyone else.
Wish they were in on Ball, Graham, Payne etc. I have serious doubts about Rose being a starter but we will see.
I do like the Burks and Noel signings. Hoping they bring back Bullock too.
Atlanta, nets, bucks, Sixers and heat are def a big step above knicks.
You are also assuming none of the Knicks young players get better..
Atlanta, nets, bucks, Sixers and heat are def a big step above knicks.
I don't think you are being fair to what the Knicks did last year. They weren't a fluke. With that said, yes, we are fair away from the top teams and, yes, a team like Miami will be better. Our strength will be in our depth and team play. We still need a star to make Randle the second banana but I feel better that we are getting closer.
Yeah it's a massive hole.
Rose/IQ/Burks/Obi/Taj is a super fun bench mob but the lack of a starting PG is such a massive hole. Rose just can't play those minutes anymore.
He fell to 36 for a reason. Not reasonable to expect anything out of him or Grimes this year.
Reggie was gonna chase every last dollar - and rightfully so. He's been in the league for a long time and never made more than $4.2. This contract more than doubles his career earnings.
I don't think so. Burks does much more. Bullock is strictly a catch and shoot guy on offense and I think his defense is overrated.
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at least a little interesting that they chose Burks over Bullock for nearly identical money.
I don't think so. Burks does much more. Bullock is strictly a catch and shoot guy on offense and I think his defense is overrated.
Maybe, but Bullock started over Burks.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just interesting.
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In comment 15320468 Jon in NYC said:
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at least a little interesting that they chose Burks over Bullock for nearly identical money.
I don't think so. Burks does much more. Bullock is strictly a catch and shoot guy on offense and I think his defense is overrated.
Maybe, but Bullock started over Burks.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just interesting.
i wonder if Trae hiding on Bullock had something to do with it, he was a spot up shooter and that wa sit..
whose trae hiding on now?
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In comment 15320468 Jon in NYC said:
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at least a little interesting that they chose Burks over Bullock for nearly identical money.
I don't think so. Burks does much more. Bullock is strictly a catch and shoot guy on offense and I think his defense is overrated.
Maybe, but Bullock started over Burks.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just interesting.
And Payton started over Rose and IQ. Burks is more of a 3 and Bullock a 2 imo and I think that is why. Plus, Payton drives to the hoop, Randle handles the ball, RJ can drive and hang back. That starting unit needed a guy to stretch the defense. Burks with the second unit was more flexible. He was another guy that could facilitate, especially before we got Rose.
He’s going to want more money than he’s worth in a year and seems like there’s some maturity stuff going on there.
Fournier unlike bullock can actually create a shot
He can play the 3 though. He did plenty last year in lineups with Rose and Quickley
He's not a PG. He can't guard the position like he can the 3 but if depends on matchups. Why do you keep saying he is a 1/2? He played the 2/3 all year.
Noel-Obi-Grimes-IQ-Rose
Sims-Simms-Knox-?-McBride
If noels is worth $10 million, then Mitch has to easily be worth $15 million. To me when healthy mitch is twice the player Noel is, I know everyone gets excited about blocks but Noel struggled as an on the ball defender again at bigger centers and is awful on offenses he makes mitch look like karl Malone on offense.
Noel-Obi-Grimes-IQ-Rose
Sims-Simms-Knox-?-McBride
Sorry - left out Burks!
Mitch-Randle-Fournier-RJ-Luca
Noel-Obi-Burks-IQ-Rose
Sims-Simms-Knox-Grimes-McBride
Noel-Obi-Grimes-IQ-Rose
Sims-Simms-Knox-?-McBride
Remember, Thibs only likes to use an 8 or 9 man roatation.
Noel-Obi-Grimes-IQ-Rose
Sims-Simms-Knox-?-McBride
What makes you think Luca will start? I’m not even convinced he’ll be on the roster at the start of the season
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Mitch-Randle-Fournier-RJ-Luca
Noel-Obi-Grimes-IQ-Rose
Sims-Simms-Knox-?-McBride
Remember, Thibs only likes to use an 8 or 9 man roatation.
he used 10 all year last year
Not it. There are teams which can’t keep who they have.
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Mitch-Randle-Fournier-RJ-Luca
Noel-Obi-Grimes-IQ-Rose
Sims-Simms-Knox-?-McBride
What makes you think Luca will start? I’m not even convinced he’ll be on the roster at the start of the season
Just my guess. Rose will have to come off the bench to conserve his legs. McBride is not ready. IQ is not really a PG.
It isn't semantics. You are trying to call him a 1. He's not. Just because Randle handles the ball doesn't mean he is a 1. Burks wasn't the primary ball handler with the second unit. He handled if occasionally and I was calling for him to do it more to get Payton's minutes down and when we had injuries/covid. He has the ability to handle the ball which is why I like him on this team. I have been saying for two years now we need more PG/ball handlers not less. Just because IQ can be a point doesn't mean he should. There were two different IQs this year and when his role changed his shot was way off. He had a bad slump and for a good portion of that Burks was not handling the ball until about 3 quarters of the way through the season.
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In comment 15320483 Del Shofner said:
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Mitch-Randle-Fournier-RJ-Luca
Noel-Obi-Grimes-IQ-Rose
Sims-Simms-Knox-?-McBride
Remember, Thibs only likes to use an 8 or 9 man roatation.
he used 10 all year last year
Because Payton was garbage. Lol. But I am going by what Thibs has said himself. In interviews he said ideally he has an 8 to 9 man rotation.
It’s been like this for decades.
Noel-Obi-Burks-IQ-McBride
Sims-Simms-Knox-Grimes-Luca
I’m Still holding out hope there’s a trade in the works. Maybe the Knicks wanted to try FA first and if it fell through they would find that PG via trade. Or maybe I’m nuts... I guess they could just be happy with Rose and continue to develop IQ. Maybe they want to play IQ big minutes but I’d feel a lot better about the backcourt if one more playmaking guard was brought in. I wanted a shooter and playmaker/ facilitator this offseason.
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but he was the primary ball handler for that bench unit, often over Rose.
It isn't semantics. You are trying to call him a 1. He's not. Just because Randle handles the ball doesn't mean he is a 1. Burks wasn't the primary ball handler with the second unit. He handled if occasionally and I was calling for him to do it more to get Payton's minutes down and when we had injuries/covid. He has the ability to handle the ball which is why I like him on this team. I have been saying for two years now we need more PG/ball handlers not less. Just because IQ can be a point doesn't mean he should. There were two different IQs this year and when his role changed his shot was way off. He had a bad slump and for a good portion of that Burks was not handling the ball until about 3 quarters of the way through the season.
Calling him a 1/2 or a 2/3 is absolutely semantics. It's all fluid.
He functions as a PG on the team. You take both stances in your post so I'm really not sure where you're landing on this issue but it feels like you're debating on this just for the sake of debating.
Burks is a better offensive player, Bullock is a better defensive player. It'll be interesting to see who is more valuable since they're a nearly identical age and salary hit. That was my only (fairly innocuous) point lol.
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In comment 15320484 Jon in NYC said:
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but he was the primary ball handler for that bench unit, often over Rose.
It isn't semantics. You are trying to call him a 1. He's not. Just because Randle handles the ball doesn't mean he is a 1. Burks wasn't the primary ball handler with the second unit. He handled if occasionally and I was calling for him to do it more to get Payton's minutes down and when we had injuries/covid. He has the ability to handle the ball which is why I like him on this team. I have been saying for two years now we need more PG/ball handlers not less. Just because IQ can be a point doesn't mean he should. There were two different IQs this year and when his role changed his shot was way off. He had a bad slump and for a good portion of that Burks was not handling the ball until about 3 quarters of the way through the season.
Calling him a 1/2 or a 2/3 is absolutely semantics. It's all fluid.
He functions as a PG on the team. You take both stances in your post so I'm really not sure where you're landing on this issue but it feels like you're debating on this just for the sake of debating.
Burks is a better offensive player, Bullock is a better defensive player. It'll be interesting to see who is more valuable since they're a nearly identical age and salary hit. That was my only (fairly innocuous) point lol.
You were arguing with me and when others chimed in he wasn't a 1 your response was it is just semantics. Lol. If it was just semantics then why argue in the first place. Handling the ball on offense does not mean you are playing the 1. He wasn't guarding PGs. As others have said, he was always out there with guys like Rose and IQ.
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In comment 15320483 Del Shofner said:
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Mitch-Randle-Fournier-RJ-Luca
Noel-Obi-Grimes-IQ-Rose
Sims-Simms-Knox-?-McBride
What makes you think Luca will start? I’m not even convinced he’ll be on the roster at the start of the season
Just my guess. Rose will have to come off the bench to conserve his legs. McBride is not ready. IQ is not really a PG.
Rose is your starting PG and McBride/Quickley will get the remaining minutes.
I think Quickley will get more minutes in year 2.
Starting 5 will be
Randle, Robinson, Fournier, RJ and Rose.
2nd unit of Burks, Obi, Quickley, Grimes and Noel.
Rose has average about 50 games a season 28 minutes per the last 3 but he is far removed from the ACL and I think he will get more games but still 28 minutes per.
(1) is great fun to watch;
(2) will be toying with the playoffs annually going forward; and
(3) will win enough to not get in the lottery to get a true superstar but not enough to be a true challenger.
The big name free agents still don't believe/want to play here. I admire the front office, but not sure how they can get to the next level. They had the most cap space available this year and got marginally better without solving the PG issue (again). Hopefully one of the kids becomes truly special.
Derrick Rose is the 2nd scoring threat on this team. Randle playing 40 minutes a night is his floor.
Fournier’s shot creation should help here. Bullock was a black hole offensively too often last year.
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To play Obi and Randle at the same time for a couple of minutes here and there. Make teams adapt to us. Also, Randle doesn't need to play 40 min per night. It would also benefit this team to not be so reliant on him so we don't have another Hawks situation again. When they shut Randle down we had no answer for 5 games.
Derrick Rose is the 2nd scoring threat on this team. Randle playing 40 minutes a night is his floor.
Rose is probably their 4th scoring threat as of right now behind fournier and Rj
(1) is great fun to watch;
(2) will be toying with the playoffs annually going forward; and
(3) will win enough to not get in the lottery to get a true superstar but not enough to be a true challenger.
The big name free agents still don't believe/want to play here. I admire the front office, but not sure how they can get to the next level. They had the most cap space available this year and got marginally better without solving the PG issue (again). Hopefully one of the kids becomes truly special.
Knicks still have the ability to trade for a star
Derrick Rose is the 2nd scoring threat on this team. Randle playing 40 minutes a night is his floor.
They’re banking on RJ taking another step forward next year. Given the quantum leap from year 1 to year 2, that’s not a bad bet at all.
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that:
(1) is great fun to watch;
(2) will be toying with the playoffs annually going forward; and
(3) will win enough to not get in the lottery to get a true superstar but not enough to be a true challenger.
The big name free agents still don't believe/want to play here. I admire the front office, but not sure how they can get to the next level. They had the most cap space available this year and got marginally better without solving the PG issue (again). Hopefully one of the kids becomes truly special.
Knicks still have the ability to trade for a star
Yep that's the clearly the plan here. When Dame or another top PG is available they have the pieces to make a big run at a trade.
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In comment 15320489 Strahan91 said:
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In comment 15320483 Del Shofner said:
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Mitch-Randle-Fournier-RJ-Luca
Noel-Obi-Grimes-IQ-Rose
Sims-Simms-Knox-?-McBride
What makes you think Luca will start? I’m not even convinced he’ll be on the roster at the start of the season
Just my guess. Rose will have to come off the bench to conserve his legs. McBride is not ready. IQ is not really a PG.
Rose is your starting PG and McBride/Quickley will get the remaining minutes.
I think Quickley will get more minutes in year 2.
Starting 5 will be
Randle, Robinson, Fournier, RJ and Rose.
2nd unit of Burks, Obi, Quickley, Grimes and Noel.
Rose has average about 50 games a season 28 minutes per the last 3 but he is far removed from the ACL and I think he will get more games but still 28 minutes per.
I agree that if Rose starts then that doesn't necessarily mean more minutes. Look at Payton he started but he was barely playing at the end of the year. I think Rose starts but that will depend on his health. With his knees is it better for him to come off the bench and play consecutively in both halves? I have no idea. I think that will be discussed. Sometimes the worst thing for players is sitting too long because that is when you start to stiffen or tighten up. Whatever is better for Rose to stay healthy is probably what they do. And, yes, IQ and someone else will get those minutes. I assume that McBride and Luca will battle it out to earn being in the rotation as of now.
is there like ANYTHING we could possibly do to fit Dinwiddie in? I don't know all the tricks of the cap trade but idk... I really wish we'd somehow saved a few mill here and there to get him. He was the PG I've wanted in FA all along. I really feel like Fournier + Dinwiddie added to what we basically already had here last year could really make us dangerous. But at the moment the PG position is just too big of a question mark. It's hard for me to believe the offseason moves are done with, but I don't know what they could possibly do more other than a trade obviously. I guess a trade could still very much be in the works given all the assets and picks they have (6 1sts and 9 2nds over the next 4 drafts).
I liked Powell more then Fournier, his defense is much better but Fournier is a tad bit better at creating his own shot.
If he wants out we have the best package to offer.
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think the Knicks master plan is Lilliard. But not sure how it would work now honestly.
If he wants out we have the best package to offer.
I hope it's bigger than Brandon Stokely's.
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think the Knicks master plan is Lilliard. But not sure how it would work now honestly.
If he wants out we have the best package to offer.
Do we?
We'd probably have to trade Mitch, RJ, Knox, Toppin just for salary reasons.
With the current signing let’s say Portland puts lillard up for a trade, whats our offer to make the salaries work?
Fournier
Burks
Obi
Quickley
5 first rounders
If I’m Portland I don’t want Fournier and Burks for 2 more years so I guess third team gets involved
Maybe trade for Sexton, sign and trade - rose and Fournier plus 2 first rounders for Sexton. Only works if we extend
Any trade at this point is going to be a combo of Mitch/Obi/RJ/IQ/picks
I would much rather have 26 yo Graham at 4/47 than 33 yo Rose at 3/43.
I would much rather have 26 yo Graham at 4/47 than 33 yo Rose at 3/43.
Maybe, but they had to include a first to make it happen. I also think in a vacuum Rose is the better player.
I would much rather have 26 yo Graham at 4/47 than 33 yo Rose at 3/43.
So you would gice up a 1st round pick for Graham?
Any trade at this point is going to be a combo of Mitch/Obi/RJ/IQ/picks
Agree other than RJ being part of the package.
I would much rather have 26 yo Graham at 4/47 than 33 yo Rose at 3/43.
I think Rose's intangibles puts him easily over the top in that comparison.
So you would gice up a 1st round pick for Graham?
The Knicks didn't seem to value their picks very much in the draft just held, so why not.
Protection would matter.
I think Rose's intangibles puts him easily over the top in that comparison.
You're a good fan and we'll see.
Rose's intangibles didn't count for much against the Hawks as the Knicks were being exposed.
And his body is a major question mark.
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So you would gice up a 1st round pick for Graham?
The Knicks didn't seem to value their picks very much in the draft just held, so why not.
Protection would matter.
what do you mean they didnt value their picks? they added a future 1st, they didnt get rid of it for nothing
These moves allow them to trade for a star without having a completely bare cupboard.
These moves allow them to trade for a star without having a completely bare cupboard.
Any FAs left for them to get? Sounds like they might have about 8 mil left.
These moves allow them to trade for a star without having a completely bare cupboard.
Always appreciate an insider and I did not see your track record but seems you have been wrong all along today.
Can Iq improve where he is more consistent?
can Mitch stay healthy?
What do you get from Obi?
What do you get from the rooks? summer league will be fun
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A star isn’t coming in free agency this year or next.
These moves allow them to trade for a star without having a completely bare cupboard.
Always appreciate an insider and I did not see your track record but seems you have been wrong all along today.
Wrong about what? I confirmed the Fournier deal. Their offer to Payne was 1 year. I said I wasn’t sure about Burks and Noel but that I didn’t think it would be 3 years but I never said anything definite.
Also Knox has no shot for minutes on this team.
Backup line up
Quickley
Burks
Toppin
Noel
Knox
McBride
Grimes
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In comment 15320566 ajr2456 said:
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A star isn’t coming in free agency this year or next.
These moves allow them to trade for a star without having a completely bare cupboard.
Always appreciate an insider and I did not see your track record but seems you have been wrong all along today.
Wrong about what? I confirmed the Fournier deal. Their offer to Payne was 1 year. I said I wasn’t sure about Burks and Noel but that I didn’t think it would be 3 years but I never said anything definite.
In fact last week I even said don’t expect any big moves outside of going after Lowry because the goal is a trade.
Can Iq improve where he is more consistent?
can Mitch stay healthy?
What do you get from Obi?
What do you get from the rooks? summer league will be fun
No doubt. I mean the logical next leap for him as a #3 overall pick going into his 3rd year (after what we saw last season) is to make that step up as that borderline all star -caliber player. I don’t think they’re crazy to have that type of confidence in him and put that type of pressure on him. There are certainly some things we simply have to bank on happening if we want to be a contender any time soon and one of those things is RJ becoming an all star scorer someday, plain and simple.
- in your opinion do you think they missed out on grabbing extra picks/ assets by utilizing unused cap space last year? Or being even more aggressive on FVV, Bog others?
- why no interest in Lonzo Ball? 4/85 seems reasonable for player his age. Why not pay more for Payne?
what do you mean they didnt value their picks? they added a future 1st, they didnt get rid of it for nothing
They had the opportunity to take a player at 19 and instead traded it for a future pick with such a high level of protection that it could vaporize into a second round pick in 2026.
Unless it's traded before then. If it is, I doubt it brings back an asset of greater value than Graham (on that contract).
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what do you mean they didnt value their picks? they added a future 1st, they didnt get rid of it for nothing
They had the opportunity to take a player at 19 and instead traded it for a future pick with such a high level of protection that it could vaporize into a second round pick in 2026.
Unless it's traded before then. If it is, I doubt it brings back an asset of greater value than Graham (on that contract).
so you think a guy who averaged 15 and 5 on 37% shooting is worth that contract and a 1st?
- in your opinion do you think they missed out on grabbing extra picks/ assets by utilizing unused cap space last year? Or being even more aggressive on FVV, Bog others?
- why no interest in Lonzo Ball? 4/85 seems reasonable for player his age. Why not pay more for Payne?
I think they absolutely did miss out on trying to grab assets last year but it was more of them being too picky than not trying.
From what I can tell Lonzo being more of an off ball guard was the turn off.
The offer to Payne was more on a one year than he got annually I’m not sure why they only wanted to go one.
I think this is an interesting point and something I've been considering too.
Don't see why IQ couldn't take a bunch of minutes at the 1 with all the ball handlers in the starting lineup.
Id be surprised if Melo chose the Knicks over the Lakers
Fournier can shoot the lights out and will take pressure off RJ and Randle.
Burks can create his own shot and we have seen he can close out a game.
RJ is developing and if he takes another step like he did from year 1 to 2 he is on the verge of being an all-star.
Robinson and Noel might be the best 1/2 rim defenders in the league. Noel came up big in big moments last year.
Randle will face less doubles with Fournier on the court. He just need to play the way he did last year
The bench is a group of dogs and have a ton of energy.
McBride is going to be big in spots with his defense and shooting.
I am excited to watch this team next year, should be a fun team.
I don't think Melo signs here but he shot .410 from 3 last season and was fine coming off the bench only playing 24 minutes.
He knows his role now and is not the same player he was before.
so much for that
Fournier can shoot the lights out and will take pressure off RJ and Randle.
Burks can create his own shot and we have seen he can close out a game.
RJ is developing and if he takes another step like he did from year 1 to 2 he is on the verge of being an all-star.
Robinson and Noel might be the best 1/2 rim defenders in the league. Noel came up big in big moments last year.
Randle will face less doubles with Fournier on the court. He just need to play the way he did last year
The bench is a group of dogs and have a ton of energy.
McBride is going to be big in spots with his defense and shooting.
I am excited to watch this team next year, should be a fun team.
+1
so you think a guy who averaged 15 and 5 on 37% shooting is worth that contract and a 1st?
Evidently the Pelicans did. Lottery protected first.
I know you know the stats. Graham shot a very high percentage of three point shots, so his eFG percentage is respectable.
He's likely to stay healthier than Rose and could be a long term piece. Whereas Rose, to me, is a dead end.
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Oklahoma City Thunder guard Shai Gilgeous-Alexander has agreed to a five-year, $172 million maximum rookie contract extension, his agent Thaddeus Foucher of @Wasserman tells ESPN.
so much for that
SGA already extended increases the return
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
What move should the Knicks have made that makes them a contender this year?
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
So tou assume Rj and Iq do not get better at all?
You assume Randle wont get better?
You assume none of the rookies will contribute?
You dont think jist getting rid of Payton is an upgrade?
You dont think adding an 18ppg player wont help this team?
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
Julius Randle is 26/27 years old.
Barrett and Quickley are 21 years old.
They just played their first postseason games ever. If you want to grow a team, this is what it looks like. Learning how to play and win in playoff games is the hard part.
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I think Rose's intangibles puts him easily over the top in that comparison.
You're a good fan and we'll see.
Rose's intangibles didn't count for much against the Hawks as the Knicks were being exposed.
And his body is a major question mark.
The bigger issue in the hawks series was the fact that Noel got destroyed by Capela and that they had no one other than rose who could create their own shot. Fournier (unlike bullock) can do that.
-IQ, Barrett and Obi should all be markedly better.
-Replacing any minutes that Payton played is just great.
-There is a lot to like about Grimes and McBride.
Concerns:
-As has been the case for much of my life (I'm 50), there STILL isn't a viable lead guard.
-Contracts to historically fragile players Rose, Noel, Burks are too long (3 years each). I would have preferred Rishaun Holmes over Noel and Cam Payne over Rose.
I would prefer my wife to be Salma Hayek.
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
When people say "NY fans can't support a rebuild" this is what they mean.
If you can't see what the Knicks are trying to do here, I don't know what to say. They are so obviously retaining assets and marginally improving the team while waiting for the next star to force his way out of his current team. Everything they did in the last few days makes that painfully obvious.
They kept the core from the first successful season in 8 years together, added Fournier, pushed some of their draft assets into a future draft so they remain available in future deals. They're waiting for a franchise changer to be available. All 4 players they drafted this year would have some value as add ins on a trade for a big name. There's more young talent on this team than I can remember.
This front office is patient. Too patient for some fans, it seems :)
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If Rose came out of his cage to explain his strategy. Because right now, there does not appear to be any grand strategy.
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
So tou assume Rj and Iq do not get better at all?
You assume Randle wont get better?
You assume none of the rookies will contribute?
You dont think jist getting rid of Payton is an upgrade?
You dont think adding an 18ppg player wont help this team?
Yeah I don’t understand this. Pelicans tanked and still stink with Zion so what’s the point of always picking towards the top? To maybe get lucky on a generational player?
Knicks are doing this right. Find guys that play well together, get playoff experience, and coach up the young guys to move the needle. Keeping some flexibility to jump on a trade in the process.
Other than that you are just rooting for blind luck with the draft which is what I’d call “NBA Hell”.
The point guard position is instantly better the second elfrid is gone..
The shooting guard position you added a guy who can create for himself and others, shoot the 3 just as well if not better than Bullock and can score at all 3 levels..He can literally carry you for a game if needed..
The team is going to be better than last years and do you notice which position they didnt sign anyone new at? yeah Point guard and which player has been rumored to may want out eventually? Dame Lillard
Two 10 mil per year contracts for role players, added the #2 shooting guard on the market, who is an elite 3p shooter in all the ways this team needs, not just a catch and shoot guy. Kept Rose.
This team is going to go where Randle, Barrett, and Quickly grow to take them. The gains will be made in their offseason development.
IF a star shakes loose, worry about that then.
These moves allow them to trade for a star without having a completely bare cupboard.
I think this is what it all comes down to.
Its funny in hindsight to think of all the talk about FVV last year and Lonzo this year in Free Agency. Glad they didn't pay Lonzo.
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If Rose came out of his cage to explain his strategy. Because right now, there does not appear to be any grand strategy.
The Knicks have essentially reached NBA hell. Good enough to compete for a play-in slot but not bad enough to gain a high pick.
So is this all there is?
When people say "NY fans can't support a rebuild" this is what they mean.
If you can't see what the Knicks are trying to do here, I don't know what to say. They are so obviously retaining assets and marginally improving the team while waiting for the next star to force his way out of his current team. Everything they did in the last few days makes that painfully obvious.
They kept the core from the first successful season in 8 years together, added Fournier, pushed some of their draft assets into a future draft so they remain available in future deals. They're waiting for a franchise changer to be available. All 4 players they drafted this year would have some value as add ins on a trade for a big name. There's more young talent on this team than I can remember.
This front office is patient. Too patient for some fans, it seems :)
+1
As things stand right now, the Knicks signed 3 FAs who will all come off the bench, to $35 million a year in contracts. That is usually not a winning formula.
It doesn't seem like they are going to address the PG spot, maybe IQ starts? That'd be exciting.
Shot creation was a major need for the Knicks heading into the offseason. Unfortunately, it wasn't addressed.
The Knicks FO rushed to re-sign their own players at steep prices (no discounts). I think this shows how worried they were that FAs won't come to NY. This has been an issue for a long time now and I think we forget about it every year.
The Grimes pick doesn't make a ton of sense now. He's a lower upside guy, but is more ready to play now. Is he even going to be in the rotation?
If Barrett and IQ take big steps forward, the Knicks should make the playoffs again. That'd be great.
It would cushion the fact that Rose/Burks are brittle and IQ/Deuce may not be lead guards (better off the ball).
As things stand right now, the Knicks signed 3 FAs who will all come off the bench, to $35 million a year in contracts. That is usually not a winning formula.
It doesn't seem like they are going to address the PG spot, maybe IQ starts? That'd be exciting.
Shot creation was a major need for the Knicks heading into the offseason. Unfortunately, it wasn't addressed.
The Knicks FO rushed to re-sign their own players at steep prices (no discounts). I think this shows how worried they were that FAs won't come to NY. This has been an issue for a long time now and I think we forget about it every year.
The Grimes pick doesn't make a ton of sense now. He's a lower upside guy, but is more ready to play now. Is he even going to be in the rotation?
If Barrett and IQ take big steps forward, the Knicks should make the playoffs again. That'd be great.
They literally resigned 2 of their best shot creators from last year and added another..
They rushed to sign their own because no one wanted to come here? who did you want them to sign?
Grimes will be their back up 2 or 3
--If Rose was signed with his Early Bird rights (175% of pervious year salary) then they can go over the cap to sign him.
--Bullock comes off the Knicks cap as he signed with Dallas
That gives them about $18m in space left with the $4.9m exception.
IF somehow, if they can sign Burks into the Mid-Level (available only to teams over the cap) after they have gone over the cap with other signings, that helps.
Anyone have any idea how much money the Knicks have left to spend?
I would prefer my wife to be Salma Hayek.
This is the one move that annoyed me. I would have given Payne much more on a shot that his small sample size translates to high upside.
It does seem like they have another 8 mil to spend. That + Vildoza + Knox deals get them to about 16 they can spend on a player via S&T.
--If Rose was signed with his Early Bird rights (175% of pervious year salary) then they can go over the cap to sign him.
--Bullock comes off the Knicks cap as he signed with Dallas
That gives them about $18m in space left with the $4.9m exception.
IF somehow, if they can sign Burks into the Mid-Level (available only to teams over the cap) after they have gone over the cap with other signings, that helps.
Anyone have any idea how much money the Knicks have left to spend?
You're not factoring in Rose's cap hold if you don't sign him yet, so that 18 number drops to 8.
They also don't have access to the midlevel if they start the offseason under the cap.
It's not that I am an impatient fan, I was just hoping that they would have identified a young player in FA to take a chance on, or land someone like Lowry or Paul. They obviously couldn't do that, so this became the plan. I just heard over and over that there were a ton of free agents PGs, but still we don't land one. I know FA isn't over, so I hope they can still bring in someone on a smaller deal to split time with Rose.
I will say, I think there's something to rewarding the guys that you gave one year deals to last year that excelled. I think it shows that the team can be loyal and doesn't treat free agents as disposable assets and I think that matters for the reputation of the team.
I don't expect any of the rookies to come in and have an immediate impact. I think IQ last year was an outlier because if they were really excited about Grimes, they probably would have taken him at 19.
They're capped out already, Schroeder is a middle of the road starting caliber PG possibly with some upside. I think it improves the team overall.
The idea that we arent better makes no sense. The idea of building a young team is that you hope they get better. We were the 4 seed and every hope is that RJ (major jump from year 1 to 2), IQ, and Obi are better NBA players. Shit I mean who knows if Randle could be better (Ill sign up for the same!! ha). We also have subtracted elf, will have a whole season of Rose and improved our SG drastically in fournier. He is a much better NBA player then Bullock. And we still have a bunch of picks in the upcoming drafts.
He'll get minutes with the second unit. I personally think that maybe IQ gets to play PG and the second unit is Rose and Grimes at 1 and 2. Payton played 24 minutes a game. They aren't exactly replacing Randle or RJ by letting him go. If they believe in IQ, they can probably get by with him for a few more minutes, Rose and Vildoza/McBride.
The guy that they haven't replaced yet is Taj. He played 20 minutes a game. I don't think they have pick #58 penciled in for those minutes and you can't necessarily bank on fragile Mitch and Noel to carry the whole load.
Via Yahoo
Grimes showed off his determination in the pre-draft process, opting to compete in two Draft Combine scrimmages after already having a pro day and near-guarantee he’d be drafted. He dominated the two scrimmages with his shooting, playmaking and defense.
Those are the primary skills he’ll be bringing to New York. Grimes is one of the better shooters of this draft, connecting on 40.3% of his threes on 8.3 (!) attempts a game. Much has been said about Grimes being a dip shooter, but it plays into his effective form: consistently has good lift, a good base, and squares up to the rim.
When you think “3-and-D” prospect, the “3” usually refers to boring catch-and-shoots out of the corner. It should be noted Grimes can nail it from nearly anywhere in nearly any way. He can spot up or curl off a double screen, and has tremendous off-ball IQ getting him in perfect spots.
With the ball, Grimes gets real interesting. He shot 42.3% on off the dribble threes, an impressive number before you even consider the degree of difficulty on these shots. He’ll hit pull-ups from beyond NBA range, contested pull-ups, and pull-ups off the pick-and-roll as a ball handler. Some moves you only see once or twice but get you excited about Grimes’s ceiling as a scorer - like a Jayson Tatum-esque side-step three.
This pull-up game extends into the deep mid-range, where Grimes can also stop on a dime to rise and fire. There could be potential for Grimes to evolve into more of a scorer from this area, given his threat to hit from deep and some sporadic promising footwork. He’ll need to improve from the in-between range first.
New York will be able to rely on Grimes as a knockdown shooter out of the gates, but his pick-and-roll and one-on-one games will be highly driven by how he develops his handle. It’s a bit on the raw side for a guard, with Grimes able to create great space when he connects on one move, but not ready to string multiple moves together. His mishandles caused a number of turnovers this past season, but if he can sharpen them up, it’ll open up a ton for him.
For example, if they go over cap AND then sign Rose into the early-bird, do they save cap space.
If they sign all these contracts, go over the cap, do they then have the mid-level?
Or do simply have $8m left to spend plus the $4.9m exception available to under the cap teams
His handle is iffy and his passing is iffy so I don't think he'll be a shot creator, but is a poor man's Klay Thompson out of the question?
Link - ( New Window )
Sixers: lots of question marks and really havnt done anything to improve
Hawks: will bring back pretty much the same team but still have to pay Collins
Heat: got better but for hoe long? they are an old team
Bucks: lost Tucker but they will be top 4 no matter what
Bulls: got better adding Lonzo, not the deepest team but they should be better
Wizards: adding dinwiddie, lost westbrook, i would expect a playoff team but who knows
Celtics: have added nothing and probably wont because they are capped out
Pacers: Should be better with full season of Levert and warren back..
For example, if they go over cap AND then sign Rose into the early-bird, do they save cap space.
If they sign all these contracts, go over the cap, do they then have the mid-level?
Or do simply have $8m left to spend plus the $4.9m exception available to under the cap teams
Basically the last line is true if they sequence them in the right order.
Need to sign fournier, Burks, Noel.
Then spend the 8 mil
Then sign Rose and use the 4.9 room exception.
They're capped out already, Schroeder is a middle of the road starting caliber PG possibly with some upside. I think it improves the team overall.
Could also do something like this for Reggie Jackson or Kendrick Nunn, but I prefer Schroeder.
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going to get slammed for this I'm sure but I'd move Knox, Vildoza and 2 2nds to the lakers in a S&T for Schroder for a 3 year 51 mil contract.
They're capped out already, Schroeder is a middle of the road starting caliber PG possibly with some upside. I think it improves the team overall.
Could also do something like this for Reggie Jackson or Kendrick Nunn, but I prefer Schroeder.
I think they are setting up a trade for a poiny, just a gut feeling, i dont think they go into the season with this Point Guard rotation
Yea, I specifically wanted Lowry. I didn't think Paul would get a 4th year, but he's still an elite player. Lowry was the 2nd best guy in FA at a position of need. Contracts in the NBA are not for that long, so you can always get out from them.
The contracts for Noel and Burks are ones that make me scratch my head. I'm sure they're good locker room guys, but go look at those Knicks threads before this one. People were saying that they didn't want to give Mitch 10 mil a year, and that's what Noel got. Bigs continue to be devalued around the NBA.
Burks is a nice player, but guards like him are a dime a dozen. We literally signed 2 of them off the scrap heap last year on one year deals. Most people said they didn't want him back at that price before the offseason began.
Happy Rose is back though.
Bottom line is that they're smaller deals and should be tradeable assets, so ultimately that's ok. They couldn't land any big fish so they did right by guys that played well this year. Just a little sad that they couldn't make a splash.
I'd feel much better about it if they have something planned for a starting PG. Fournier is a big upgrade. Noel and Burks are valuable pieces. Rose was a must re-sign.
But need a starting PG badly.
I understand that the Knicks were not getting CP3 or Leonard, but this front office has to realize that some of last season's success could easily go the other way next season. Fournier is a slight upgrade in the lineup and Payton is addition but subtraction, but we will have the same issues we had in the Atlanta series. Miami has gotten better and some of the other teams could easily improve like Charlotte, Indiana, Boston, Chicago etc.
You'd have to think if the Knicks are committed to Randle and have resigned Noel, that Toppin has to be a trade chip. Any noise there?
I didn't like the Noel contract and would absolutely hate adding Melo to this group - I'm OK with everything else.
It's not the result everyone wants, but they are a better team now than the team that played the Hawks. Baby steps I guess.
Would just mean they could have paid Noel more money!!!!!!!
/sarcasm off
Still disappointed that they don’t have a proven #1 PG in a PG league. Hopefully the kids develop (I was somewhat frustrated by how IQ was used last year and wonder whether the coach will give young players the playing time to develop). That said, I love Thibs and his brand of basketball.
Time will tell. I could easily see this team underperforming last year’s team even if they make positive strides. Should be an interesting season.
and in regards to burks/rose/noel...here's the thing there. could they have let them walk and signed some new guys for 1-year deals a few days from now? sure. but think about all the talk of culture. Do you really want to keep overturning the roster every year with new guys on 1-year deals? is that building culture? And don't you have to send a message at some point that if you kill youself for the team that they'll take care of you? We di that with three guys are actually pretty good players who fit the system and have played well in NYC.
thats what i am hoping as well
Don't think that moves the needle for CLE since they got Mobley who is now at the 4 with Allen re-signed.
I think the window for a Sexton trade has passed.
I really like what they have done so far. No, we aren't a finished product. I personally don't even think we will finish better in the standings this year. But Indo feel we are a better team. I feel that Atlanta and Miami will finish ahead of us and we will be in that 6th to 10th seed this year. However, I feel we will be a much more balanced team on offense and be a tough out in the playoffs than we were this past year. This is without making a major move. The key is that we are in position now to make a move. Therefore, we need to be patient and wait foe the right opportunity to come along before we pounce.
We need to consider that last year wasn't the floor going forward. This is still a team under construction. They will play defense until their feet bleed and give teams hell and might not be good enough yet. Barrett needs to be a legitimate co-star for Randle, and they need to find a starting PG that does more good than harm. Once they find a PG that legit makes players around him better by drawing in a defense and creating shots for other, this team will rise.
Signing a 35 year old guy on the way out is a patch, not a fix.
dude give it a rest already. Frankie fucking sucks. Enough with this stupid obsession with a fringe player. Liked the pick. Wanted to see this guy get more than one chance and he did get more than one chance. He's a guy. And he's French. that's all he is. And He's done here.
Personally, I think the biggest change is in their drafting. They're not picking names off an ESPN big board list. They have their targets and they have their evaluations and they stick to them. They draft guys that fit their ideas and how they want to play.
If their targets are gone they prioritize gathering assets for future flexibility. We may not agree with their assessments of prospects, but they're still executing a philosophy.
Rose
Randle
Burks
Fournier
Grimes
Knox
Noel
Quick
Toppin
Robinson
Barrett
Vildoza
Plus Jokubaitis is staying in Spain
Presumably, McBride makes the team
I hope they give Sims a chance. I think he's a real sleeper
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in a vacuum these moves were fine (don't love 3 years on Burks or Noel given I think they are role players) but I am still waiting to be "impressed" by this FO in the sense we hear so much about them and how things are different but their moves have been nearly across the board pretty by the book and cookie cutter. I'm waiting for Leon and Co. to do something where I go "this FO is really good".
Personally, I think the biggest change is in their drafting. They're not picking names off an ESPN big board list. They have their targets and they have their evaluations and they stick to them. They draft guys that fit their ideas and how they want to play.
If their targets are gone they prioritize gathering assets for future flexibility. We may not agree with their assessments of prospects, but they're still executing a philosophy.
I don't "disagree" with this but we also haven't really seen fruits of this to say "well they do draft really well". IQ looks like a very solid rotation piece and Toppin we shall see (Toppin went around where he was expected to go FWIW). I don't think I'm being hypercritical here.
I just want to see some moves, or a move where I feel some level of "this FO really knows what they are doing".
It feels like the moves yesterday could have been done by any of us "keep the guys who played well and sign Fournier"
I do think the KNicks are better than last year. Surprised to see the take that they are the same team. Hardly. They were so bad in the backcourt last year it goes beyond words. They literally had 2 journeymen starting in the backcourt with Rose brought in late, and IQ learning the ropes as a rookie coming off the bench. Now they have Fourniere who is a solid and legit starter and IQ is a year older and Rose is back for the full year. The backcourt is better. The kids, Obi, RJB, IQ and Mitch are a year older. The team is better on paper and enters year 2 with Thibs. 50+ wins.
Still holding out hope for a trade. But if this is the finished product so be it. It's not an all in off-season but they also didn't punt on any of the kids. Thibs gets the most out of this players and player development is soaring here to heights we haven't seen in decades. Keep at it. One more year of playing it safe cannot hurt.
As for Rose, his three-year, $43 million deal didn’t use quite as much cap room as the others since it was at his Early Bird rights limit, but paying him $14 million a year until age 35 feels more like an emotional reach than a sound plan.
Oddly, New York still doesn’t have a true point guard after all this. The Knicks have just under $9 million in cap room remaining and could extend it to $11.4 million by waiving Luca Vildoza’s $3.3 million number (the league would put a cap hold of $925,259 in its place); the Knicks could also extend their room by putting little-used Kevin Knox ($5.8 million) into a sign-and-trade.
Nonetheless, as far as this year goes, the Knicks were never going to have a win-now option on the table that significantly improved their situation from a year ago. New York is looking for a megawatt star and this market just didn’t provide it, especially once Chris Paul was off the table.
What surprises me about these deals, however, is how much it handcuffs their ability to make that same move later. Factor in a max deal for Julius Randle next summer, and the Knicks took themselves out of the next two free-agent markets to keep three bench players and Evan Fournier. They could have targeted one-year deals and greatly increased their flexibility, but seemed overly welded to last year’s roster. In reality, signing different players rather than these particular ones was unlikely to dramatically shift their outlook.
New York’s approach also seems like a tacit admission that, the way the marketplace for All-Star players has evolved, whatever star New York can reel in is much more likely to arrive via trade.
Alas, New York likely did itself real harm here, too. I don’t think it’s a big secret that the Knicks are hoping Damian Lillard becomes available at some point, and have kept their draft pick powder dry to hoard pieces to trade for him when that happens. But if Portland is pushing the reset button, do you think the Blazers want three more years of Evan Fournier, or to carry eight-figure deals for Noel or Rose?
New York doesn’t have a single large expiring contact except Randle, and I doubt he’s getting traded any time soon. The Knicks still have a lot of pieces they can use to bring a team like Portland to the table – they could put together a Paul George-type package of six first-round picks (four of their own and two from other teams), Mitchell Robinson and R.J. Barrett if they really want to go bananas. But the contracts they signed are a pure negative in any deal construction, and at least one or two of them would have to be in any trade to salary-match an incoming $39.3 million deal.
Rose
Randle
Burks
Fournier
Grimes
Knox
Noel
Quick
Toppin
Robinson
Barrett
Vildoza
Plus Jokubaitis is staying in Spain
Presumably, McBride makes the team
I hope they give Sims a chance. I think he's a real sleeper
Last 3: McBride, Sims - and maybe Taj again.
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In comment 15320840 DanMetroMan said:
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in a vacuum these moves were fine (don't love 3 years on Burks or Noel given I think they are role players) but I am still waiting to be "impressed" by this FO in the sense we hear so much about them and how things are different but their moves have been nearly across the board pretty by the book and cookie cutter. I'm waiting for Leon and Co. to do something where I go "this FO is really good".
Personally, I think the biggest change is in their drafting. They're not picking names off an ESPN big board list. They have their targets and they have their evaluations and they stick to them. They draft guys that fit their ideas and how they want to play.
If their targets are gone they prioritize gathering assets for future flexibility. We may not agree with their assessments of prospects, but they're still executing a philosophy.
I don't "disagree" with this but we also haven't really seen fruits of this to say "well they do draft really well". IQ looks like a very solid rotation piece and Toppin we shall see (Toppin went around where he was expected to go FWIW). I don't think I'm being hypercritical here.
I just want to see some moves, or a move where I feel some level of "this FO really knows what they are doing".
It feels like the moves yesterday could have been done by any of us "keep the guys who played well and sign Fournier"
You can say that all three of the guys they brought back were results of "moves that show the FO knows what it's doing." They identified Burks and Noel as guys who could fill bigger roles, gave them show me deals and were proven right. They traded for DRose and he completely changed the team when he arrived.
I feel the same way. I get resigning some of these guys, but I don't know why you'd give Burks that deal when you're bringing in Fournier. Noel is alright for Mitch insurance, but Burks and Noel signings are basically running in place.
The draft signaled to me that they're accumulating assets to try to pick up star. If you're trying to preserve assets by trading that pick to the Hornets for basically nothing, picking up more 2s and trading back, it doesn't make me think that they have real conviction on anyone.
Grimes could turn out to be a player, but I would imagine if they could have traded that pick for a future first they would have done it as well.
But overall I would have preferred keep the core young guys and signing whoever was left in the free agent class to one year deals and give it a go next year in free agency. These moves don’t make this team much better then last year. It’s probably a 45-48 win team max. I am sure the young guys will improve, but I will not be surprised to see Randle take a step back. He had one of those years that everything worked snd is probably his peak. He had to work so hard to make a shot there was never an easy shot. He can’t finish at the rim, the shooting percentages were good, but the shot just doesn’t look smooth snd I don’t think it’s sustainable. He is awful when double teamed and will probably see that more, he was a turnover machine when doubled last year especially in the playoffs. I know you all think Fournier will be this savior when Randle is doubled and Fournier is good, but it’s not going to be drastically better than I’ll OKC shooting he open 3’s.
There will be signings at the end of free agency that will make all of us scratch our heads and wish that the Knicks would have signed player A to a 1 year deal instead of Noel or Burks. We basically have punted on free agency next year for Beal or Lavine, and maybe they know those guys are about to re up with their current teams, but I think there are 4 guys out there that we could have signed on 1 year deals and gotten similar results to the 4 guys that we signed. I know you guys think all of these guys are easily tradeable, but it’s not that easy to just trade bench players with multi year contracts. The teams that would want these type of players are typically contenders and most of the contenders are locked into their top few players eating up most of the cap they won’t be able to make trades easily.
Knicks will be forced to extend Randle this offseason to save money if he is willing to sign, again he was great last year, but I’m not a huge fan and I don’t consider him to be a star. He can be your 3rd best if you a really good 1 and 2 that’s just how the NBA works these days. His extension will eat at more of the cap space next year. We are going to be in no mans land for awhile and I guess that better than being horrible, but it’s just not exciting to know your team has no shot to win it all.
agree with this 100%, and inlove Mcbride and think we will be clamoring for him to start by seasons end if we are in the same pg situation..
need to add a guy to take pressure off of Rose at this moment he will be playing 35 minutes a night
Already have 3 PGs in Rose, IQ and McBride and still need a starter.
What was a realistic alternative to fill that hole?
My guy! Happy for him. He's turned himself into a great shooter while in Turkey.
for the dumb people in the back, like me. Who is AR27?
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I'm going to be critical, It's pretty disappointing we sit here with the PG situation as it is. I don't think anybody here if they were being honest would have signed for the 8/3 PG situation to be Rose/Vildoza/PG they landed 36th overall. They have to add another PG and not a Payton-level trash option. It's a flat-out failure if we go into the season with the PG situation what it is now.
What was a realistic alternative to fill that hole?
Hollinger ranked all of the FA PG's. If not the high end of the market like Lowry, Ball, Graham etc...
Dinwiddie, McConnell, Caruso, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Cameron Payne, even the aforementioned Patty Mills. All due respect but I don't think there is a single Knicks fan who felt when the season commenced that Rose/Vildoza and a 2nd round PG was an acceptable PG group after what we saw. Replacing Payton with Vildoza/McBride?
Also people are writing it’s good they rewarded the guys who were on 1 year deals with extensions, that’s not a winning formula in the nba, the championship teams have massive turnover every year. This isn’t college basketball where you hope to have players that will stay all 4 years together and then those teams play so well together that they can upset kentucky or Duke who have one and done players. That formula works in college not in the nba. In the nba talent wins period. So I lied above and said I would let it go about Burks snd Noel but Dan metroman nailed it and I couldn’t agree more.
Fully agree with this. I don’t think there was a realistic path to make the Knicks a contender. I do think there were many missed opportunities to stockpile some assets using the cap space they had. That’s a big miss in my opinion. Correct me if I’m wrong but they are now capped out for 3 years?
I also don’t get not being involved on Lonzo. He would have fit nicely here and I’d much prefer to pay a 23 year old Still waiting on some moves that are truly impressive or savvy.
@TommyBeer
·
5m
FYI:
Assuming the Knicks sign Rose using his Early Bird Rights (which they will), the Knicks have about $8.5 million in cap space left to spend.
They also will have their Room Exception - which is worth $4,910,000
Skal and Isola said this morning that they were hearing it was between Brooklyn and the Lakers for Mills.
I honestly thought they would overpay some of these guys on 1 year deals. Wouldn't you rather have Rose on a 1 year 20 million deal than 3 years 14 mil per? I seriously thought it would be kicking the can next year to try to make a real run at LaVine or Beal.
Wonder if Thibs was the guy advocating for giving these guys longer deals?
I honestly thought they would overpay some of these guys on 1 year deals. Wouldn't you rather have Rose on a 1 year 20 million deal than 3 years 14 mil per? I seriously thought it would be kicking the can next year to try to make a real run at LaVine or Beal.
Wonder if Thibs was the guy advocating for giving these guys longer deals?
Lavine and Beal are not making it to free agency, if they want to they will be traded, they will go where they want to
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AR27? Also has intel so listen there also.
for the dumb people in the back, like me. Who is AR27?
Yea, I have no idea who that is either.
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You're going to see a bunch of people getting lower offers than giving Burks and Noel 10 mil per.
I honestly thought they would overpay some of these guys on 1 year deals. Wouldn't you rather have Rose on a 1 year 20 million deal than 3 years 14 mil per? I seriously thought it would be kicking the can next year to try to make a real run at LaVine or Beal.
Wonder if Thibs was the guy advocating for giving these guys longer deals?
Lavine and Beal are not making it to free agency, if they want to they will be traded, they will go where they want to
Yep the days of these guys making it to free agency are just about done. They all sign the crazy extensions. Even SGA did. We are lined up to make a run at the next star in a trade.
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You're going to see a bunch of people getting lower offers than giving Burks and Noel 10 mil per.
I honestly thought they would overpay some of these guys on 1 year deals. Wouldn't you rather have Rose on a 1 year 20 million deal than 3 years 14 mil per? I seriously thought it would be kicking the can next year to try to make a real run at LaVine or Beal.
Wonder if Thibs was the guy advocating for giving these guys longer deals?
Lavine and Beal are not making it to free agency, if they want to they will be traded, they will go where they want to
You don't know that.
Plenty of guys get traded and wait to sign extensions. Pretty sure their teams have offered them both extensions and if they wanted to they could have signed them by now.
And even if that is true, putting Alec Burks on a 3 year deal in a package for either of those guys isn't really going to be seen as a net positive.
Dinwiddie, McConnell, Caruso, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Cameron Payne, even the aforementioned Patty Mills. All due respect but I don't think there is a single Knicks fan who felt when the season commenced that Rose/Vildoza and a 2nd round PG was an acceptable PG group after what we saw. Replacing Payton with Vildoza/McBride?
I'm disappointed on that front too. Was just curious if you had a specific guy or two in mind that you would have preferred seeing how the market played out.
Quote:
Hollinger ranked all of the FA PG's. If not the high end of the market like Lowry, Ball, Graham etc...
Dinwiddie, McConnell, Caruso, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Cameron Payne, even the aforementioned Patty Mills. All due respect but I don't think there is a single Knicks fan who felt when the season commenced that Rose/Vildoza and a 2nd round PG was an acceptable PG group after what we saw. Replacing Payton with Vildoza/McBride?
I'm disappointed on that front too. Was just curious if you had a specific guy or two in mind that you would have preferred seeing how the market played out.
Really liked the idea of Payne when somebody brought him up. The sample size of success if somewhat small but he seems like he's the kind of guy they should be looking at if not a big fish.
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In comment 15320949 Jan in DC said:
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You're going to see a bunch of people getting lower offers than giving Burks and Noel 10 mil per.
I honestly thought they would overpay some of these guys on 1 year deals. Wouldn't you rather have Rose on a 1 year 20 million deal than 3 years 14 mil per? I seriously thought it would be kicking the can next year to try to make a real run at LaVine or Beal.
Wonder if Thibs was the guy advocating for giving these guys longer deals?
Lavine and Beal are not making it to free agency, if they want to they will be traded, they will go where they want to
You don't know that.
Plenty of guys get traded and wait to sign extensions. Pretty sure their teams have offered them both extensions and if they wanted to they could have signed them by now.
And even if that is true, putting Alec Burks on a 3 year deal in a package for either of those guys isn't really going to be seen as a net positive.
read what i wrote again, if a guy wants to sign somewhere and it needs it to be a sign and trade they will do it...players dictate where they want to go..
It doesnt matter if a team has cap space or not
He hasn't been impressive in the Olympics so far.
Yep totally agree. We as fans are not payed to run an NBA team. Its these guy's jobs to find a legit NBA starting PG. I don't care about the last 50 years. That's not on Rose and co. The fact is they have had last off season, the trade deadline and now this off season to do it. I know there is still time to do it, but so far they have failed miserably at that task. You're telling me that If they offer Cam Payne 3 years and 27- 30 mill he turns it down? I'm fine with a lot of what they've done, and I don't need an all star pg but please is a competent starter so much to ask for?
Quote:
In comment 15320930 DanMetroMan said:
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Hollinger ranked all of the FA PG's. If not the high end of the market like Lowry, Ball, Graham etc...
Dinwiddie, McConnell, Caruso, Reggie Jackson, Cory Joseph, Cameron Payne, even the aforementioned Patty Mills. All due respect but I don't think there is a single Knicks fan who felt when the season commenced that Rose/Vildoza and a 2nd round PG was an acceptable PG group after what we saw. Replacing Payton with Vildoza/McBride?
I'm disappointed on that front too. Was just curious if you had a specific guy or two in mind that you would have preferred seeing how the market played out.
Really liked the idea of Payne when somebody brought him up. The sample size of success if somewhat small but he seems like he's the kind of guy they should be looking at if not a big fish.
Seems like they did and he took less to stay in PHO
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In comment 15320840 DanMetroMan said:
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in a vacuum these moves were fine (don't love 3 years on Burks or Noel given I think they are role players) but I am still waiting to be "impressed" by this FO in the sense we hear so much about them and how things are different but their moves have been nearly across the board pretty by the book and cookie cutter. I'm waiting for Leon and Co. to do something where I go "this FO is really good".
Personally, I think the biggest change is in their drafting. They're not picking names off an ESPN big board list. They have their targets and they have their evaluations and they stick to them. They draft guys that fit their ideas and how they want to play.
If their targets are gone they prioritize gathering assets for future flexibility. We may not agree with their assessments of prospects, but they're still executing a philosophy.
I don't "disagree" with this but we also haven't really seen fruits of this to say "well they do draft really well". IQ looks like a very solid rotation piece and Toppin we shall see (Toppin went around where he was expected to go FWIW). I don't think I'm being hypercritical here.
I just want to see some moves, or a move where I feel some level of "this FO really knows what they are doing".
It feels like the moves yesterday could have been done by any of us "keep the guys who played well and sign Fournier"
It's cool, just having a discussion. I do think the FO shows competency by their process. Very Giants-like in that it's not one guy, it's a consensus. Everything you read says Thibs loved McBride and Grimes. They look like Thibs players. They're defense first guys with the length to be natural defenders. So they're not just collecting talent and handing it to the coach to figure out, and to me, that's a plus.
Going out and getting additional picks consistently shows foresight. They should always be prepared if an opportunity comes their way.
They're depending on the young players they committed to. being the driving force for improvement.
It might not work out, Barrett might not reach his potential inside his contract years. But I can accept failure when you at least have a plan. This is what team building should look like. It's just not fast work.
who cares if he does or not, he is not going to give you the answers your looking for
Find me a center, this would be a fun exercise. Noel was 3rd in blocks among centers, 3rd in blocks per game, 2nd in block% and 2nd/3rd in defensive rating and defensive win share. We don't have to love all defensive metrics, but if you're going make a statement like that, I'd say show me the alternative. No, there aren't a truck full of high level defensive centers out there hat in hand willing to play for a dollar.
If he plays like he did for the clippers in thebplayoffs hell yeah, but im skeptical
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an exciting option but I'd take Reggie Jackson
If he plays like he did for the clippers in thebplayoffs hell yeah, but im skeptical
Wouldn't give him a silly contract but he's an upgrade over Vildoza and Payton (if they somehow bring HIM back lol) so he'd be worth a look.
A Rose-Jackson platoon would be a better situation than we've had in years.
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In comment 15320986 DanMetroMan said:
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an exciting option but I'd take Reggie Jackson
If he plays like he did for the clippers in thebplayoffs hell yeah, but im skeptical
Wouldn't give him a silly contract but he's an upgrade over Vildoza and Payton (if they somehow bring HIM back lol) so he'd be worth a look.
They bring back Payton i may lose it
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Move Thibs but he is unrealistic he will go into next season thinks are going to win the championship and I get it as a coach you should have a win now mentality, but the front office needs to be the ultimate decider regardless of coach’s view and clearly rose deal and noel deal is Thibs having a heavy influence. I am sorry I just cannot get over the Noel deal. There will be similar talented centers that will sign for 1 year vet minimum
Find me a center, this would be a fun exercise. Noel was 3rd in blocks among centers, 3rd in blocks per game, 2nd in block% and 2nd/3rd in defensive rating and defensive win share. We don't have to love all defensive metrics, but if you're going make a statement like that, I'd say show me the alternative. No, there aren't a truck full of high level defensive centers out there hat in hand willing to play for a dollar.
Noel isn't chopped liver. He's a good player, but personally, I think that Mitch and Taj would have been a fine rotation at center. All that hinges on Mitch staying healthy though.
@GwashburnGlobe
·
5h
Evan Fournier said his first intention was to re-sign with #Celtics: "That was my priority going into the summer. Because I knew the place. I talked to Brad and we couldn't get a deal done, obviously. I was more inclined to sign there because they traded for me." Story to come
Build through the draft, pick the best players, that’s the only way. Punting on the draft was a mistake. Then resign mediocre vets so those rookies will get exactly zero minutes from Thibs?
They signed their PG to a 3 year deal. Thibs loves Rose and he will start and be the primary PG, I could see Thibs pushing minutes like he did in the playoffs.
Hopefully Rose can stay healthy.
They signed their PG to a 3 year deal. Thibs loves Rose and he will start and be the primary PG, I could see Thibs pushing minutes like he did in the playoffs.
Hopefully Rose can stay healthy.
He does love Rose but he also benched Rose for Elf until it was completely untenable to do so. They definitely want a starter.
Build through the draft, pick the best players, that’s the only way. Punting on the draft was a mistake. Then resign mediocre vets so those rookies will get exactly zero minutes from Thibs?
So you assume players on the roster wont improve?
So Rj, Quick and Mitch are all at their ceiling?
Fournier doesnt improve the offense over Bullock?
No matter who the pg is not annimprovement over Payton?
None of the rookies are going to get minutes?
Are the Knicks done? people are obsessed with sayong the Knicks are locked in, no they arent, that trade for a superstar is still on the table..
Also is Fournier better than Bullock?
The Knicks had the worst starting point in the NBA and were still the 4th seed..
Do they finish top 4 again? i dont know, but can we stop acting like this is a finsihed product and the knicks have no flexibility?
Even if you trade for lillard, it will cost rj, Obi and Mitch with picks, a lillard/Randle/Fournier combo is still probably just a 6 seed.
Even if you trade for lillard, it will cost rj, Obi and Mitch with picks, a lillard/Randle/Fournier combo is still probably just a 6 seed.
Schroeder is my favorite?
What if Rj becomes a 20ppg scorer? Randle stays the same as last year, Mitch plays more than 30 games? Grimes gives you something off the bench and toppin improves, they arent a better team?
bench Rose, quick, grimes, noel
Cmon now.
I see some guy saying we actually have 27 mill because we have “2 exceptions” on top of that? I’m assuming this guy is talking out of his ass but what is he even referring to?
No one is complaining. I think most people are disappointed that we went into the offseason with 50 million dollars in cap space and we upgraded 1 position.
It isn't really that hard to understand.
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Knicms have 9 to 12 million in space left
I see some guy saying we actually have 27 mill because we have “2 exceptions” on top of that? I’m assuming this guy is talking out of his ass but what is he even referring to?
Talking out of his ass..
Knicks have 9 to 12 million and 5 million in the room level exception
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about bringing back the more important parts of a 4 seed and added to it with a vet and young players and have young players on the team that will improve..
No one is complaining. I think most people are disappointed that we went into the offseason with 50 million dollars in cap space and we upgraded 1 position.
It isn't really that hard to understand.
you upgraded 2 positions
Mr. Knicksman
@Knicksman780
·
2m
Knicks “closely monitoring” De’Aaron Fox.
It’s gonna take a haul to get him though.
Quote:
In comment 15321087 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Knicms have 9 to 12 million in space left
I see some guy saying we actually have 27 mill because we have “2 exceptions” on top of that? I’m assuming this guy is talking out of his ass but what is he even referring to?
Talking out of his ass..
Knicks have 9 to 12 million and 5 million in the room level exception
Sorry here’s the exact quote:
“The Collective Bargaining Agreement provides for three different mid-level exceptions depending on a team’s salary level. The non-taxpayer mid-level for the 2021-22 season is $9.536 million, the taxpayer mid-level is $5.890 million, and the mid-level for a team with room under the Salary Cap is $4.910 million.”
And somehow he’s getting 27 mill out of that, I guess by adding up random numbers he’s seeing lol
Quote:
Knicms have 9 to 12 million in space left
I see some guy saying we actually have 27 mill because we have “2 exceptions” on top of that? I’m assuming this guy is talking out of his ass but what is he even referring to?
Yeah that's nonsense.
We have about 8.8 Mil left in pure cap room. If we waive Vildoza which we can with no penalty that goes to 12 mil.
If we trade Knox for nothing that goes to 17 mil.
They still should be active in the trade market and/or with any remaining PGs.
Steve Popper
@StevePopper
16m
Hearing that the Derrick Rose deal may not hamstring the Knicks the way it's been talked about - think he's fitting into an early bird slot, so Knicks could have at least $9 million - which could escalate easily to $12 million.
Does Sacramento touch that? Bagley is a bust, Holmes is good not great.
I bet they'd hold firm to wanting RJ but I wouldn't move him for Fox.
Mr. Knicksman
@Knicksman780
·
2m
Knicks “closely monitoring” De’Aaron Fox.
It’s gonna take a haul to get him though.
What he's saying is almost certainly true. Fox is a great player and the Knicks both need a point guard and are looking for a star to become available so I'm sure they are monitoring him and a bunch of other stars.
If the Knicks go after Lillard or Fox, he will not be in the package. He is part of why guys want to play here. He is a very good guy and a very hard worker.
Does Sacramento touch that? Bagley is a bust, Holmes is good not great.
I bet they'd hold firm to wanting RJ but I wouldn't move him for Fox.
I bet it would take more than that if he was to be made available. Probably a few pick swaps too.
Mr. Knicksman
@Knicksman780
·
2m
Knicks “closely monitoring” De’Aaron Fox.
It’s gonna take a haul to get him though.
That would be something. What would it take to get him? 5 first round picks, Obi, Quickley, Knox, Mitch?
If the Knicks go after Lillard or Fox, he will not be in the package. He is part of why guys want to play here. He is a very good guy and a very hard worker.
Great. Given the strides he made from year 1 to year 2 I think he has high upside if he can tighten his handle and work on finishing.
@TheCohencidence
It's July 1st, 2022. Bradley Beal signs a 35% max deal with the Wizards. Zach LaVine re-ups in Chicago. Stephen Curry re-signed long ago.
Knicks have $40M+ in cap space and fans are advocating for Marcus Smart and Terry Rozier. I crawl to the corner of my room and begin crying
@TheSteinLine
·
6m
Available unrestricted free agents include:
Kawhi Leonard (BUT expected to re-sign with the Clippers)
DeMar DeRozan
Carmelo Anthony
Patty Mills
Dennis Schröder
Kelly Oubre
DeMarcus Cousins
Danny Green
Andre Iguodala
Enes Kanter
Reggie Jackson
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I have it on good authority that the Knicks are not trading RJ Barrett for many different reasons.
If the Knicks go after Lillard or Fox, he will not be in the package. He is part of why guys want to play here. He is a very good guy and a very hard worker.
Great. Given the strides he made from year 1 to year 2 I think he has high upside if he can tighten his handle and work on finishing.
Exactly, athleticism isn't the only path towards elevation of game. Handle and playmaking, and getting into the lane with more balance. His reliance on finishing off one leg limits his ability to finish in the lane. He has intangibles that allow for continuous improvement. Well see how he attacks his negative tendencies.
@TommyBeer
·
3h
Free agents left on the board:
Kawhi Leonard
John Collins (R)
DeMar DeRozan
Lauri Markkanen (R)
Danny Green
Talen Horton-Tucker (R)
Dennis Schroder
Reggie Jackson
Kelly Oubre Jr
Victor Oladipo
Andre Drummond
Carmelo Anthony
Patty Mills
K. Nunn (R)
JJ Redick
Rudy Gay
Lou Williams
Yeah, that's correct. The free agency rules are in place to really encourage guys not to leave their teams. So the game is sign and trade, because the team you're leaving can always pay you more than the team that wants to trade for you.
This almost certainly comes out of the room exception, so have 3.2 left there.
Nygiants I also do not believe Randle to be a top 20 player, yes he was all nba last year, but there easily 30 players I would trade Randle straight up for without thinking twice and then probably 10 more that are debatable.
I love lilard, but he and McCollum haven’t been able to get very far together. I can make a case that McCollum and Randle are at similar levels in the top 50 players in the league, why do we think that a lillard, Randle combo makes the Knicks better then the top 5 in the east. Full disclosure I have Randle slightly higher than McCollum but not much. I would still prefer to be Atlanta or Miami and obviously we wouldn’t be close to the top 3.
This almost certainly comes out of the room exception, so have 3.2 left there.
Actually I guess this is the vet min for someone with 10+ years, so doesnt effect the cap at all.
I hated the length of the Rose and Noel contracts - a combined $75 million over the next three seasons for a bench big and an aging PG on borrowed time is a poor use of cap space. Noel looks even worse now with Taj back on a bargain contract - Mitch, Taj, Sims and Obi/Randle at the small ball five offers plenty of flexibility there. Noel/Rose were just gifts to Thibs.
It's been clear for awhile now they are gonna trade for a star in the next calendar year and build a supporting cast around whatever's left.
Nygiants I also do not believe Randle to be a top 20 player, yes he was all nba last year, but there easily 30 players I would trade Randle straight up for without thinking twice and then probably 10 more that are debatable.
I love lilard, but he and McCollum haven’t been able to get very far together. I can make a case that McCollum and Randle are at similar levels in the top 50 players in the league, why do we think that a lillard, Randle combo makes the Knicks better then the top 5 in the east. Full disclosure I have Randle slightly higher than McCollum but not much. I would still prefer to be Atlanta or Miami and obviously we wouldn’t be close to the top 3.
Gmen46 you keep beating the same drum, we get it you are unhappy with the moves and you believe it has set them back for next year and beyond.
The Bank Shot Pod... - ( New Window )
Seriously. I mean how do I cover the nba for this long and not have a general idea on how the cap works.
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just has no fucking clue how the NBA cap works.
Seriously. I mean how do I cover the nba for this long and not have a general idea on how the cap works.
Obviously that should be “how do u cover the nba”
He hated the Rose and Noel contracts. I think it's a good assessment. Thought they should have waited it out for another year, given 1 year or 1+1 contracts even if it meant regression for the year. Having the cap space next year would allow you 2 avenues of getting a star, not just sign and trade.
Basically a lot of the sentiment that has been talked about here.
he's so bad at his job. I swear he spends 90% of his time asking impending free agents from other teams if they're going to consider NY.
3 for 63
What a fall for him.
somwhere
there is a basketball court
and Taj Gibson is hitting a 10 footer.
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to PHI for vet minimum.
What a fall for him.
He should hire Nerlens Noel's agent.
It was curtains for him when the Knicks needed someone to stop Trae and Frank was nowhere to be seen.
Really juiced up the Lakers when they got him.
S. Dinwiddie
K. Nunn-R
R. Jackson
D. Schroder
P. Mills
B. Brown-R
I. Smith
D. Green
J. Redick
D. DeRozan
K. Oubre Jr.
R. Gay
J. Hart-R
O. Porter
J. Collins-R
L. Markkanen-R
C. Anthony
J. Vanderbilt-R
A. Drummond
K. Birch
E. Kanter
R. Lopez
Quote:
Always gives blunt and honest assessments.
He hated the Rose and Noel contracts. I think it's a good assessment. Thought they should have waited it out for another year, given 1 year or 1+1 contracts even if it meant regression for the year. Having the cap space next year would allow you 2 avenues of getting a star, not just sign and trade.
Basically a lot of the sentiment that has been talked about here.
1+1 sounds good but really we'd be right back where we are now next year. Cap Space, big holes to fill and very few upgrades available on the market. The team clearly decided that wasn't a preferable situation. So they brought back the core from last year and added a quality scorer.
This is the most continuity the Knicks have had in 20 years. Hopefully they show their basketball culture really is better, win 45 or so games and the next big star that wants out picks the bright lights of MSG. Looking at you, Dame or Donovan...
S. Dinwiddie
K. Nunn-R
R. Jackson
D. Schroder
P. Mills
B. Brown-R
I. Smith
D. Green
J. Redick
D. DeRozan
K. Oubre Jr.
R. Gay
J. Hart-R
O. Porter
J. Collins-R
L. Markkanen-R
C. Anthony
J. Vanderbilt-R
A. Drummond
K. Birch
E. Kanter
R. Lopez
Dinwiddie signed with Washington, Gay with the Jazz, Porter with GSW, Brown remained with BK
Not a Drummond fan at all but he only got a 1 year vet min and we paid noel $10 million lol, what an embarrassment. Time for Leon to face the media.
Because Thibs should be able to change his system to accommodate players. Burks is a scrap heap guy, same with Noel. And I doubt there's any other team in the league that values Derrick Rose as highly as we do.
You have a good relationship with him, have him go out and see if he can find a deal. Maybe that's what they did, no way of knowing.
I dunno, it's clear to me there are people who are happy with what the Knicks did and I get that. I had a fun time rooting for the team last year, but that's because I expected nothing and there was the hope for the future. The promise of FA and cap space. But that's gone now and we have a middling team (somewhere between the 4-9 seed team I'd suspect). But it feels like in the NBA you either want to be at the top of the pile, or the bottom. Mediocrity hampers your ability to get better.
Drummond is a cancer and his game is an actual disruption.
I wouldn't put on the Knicks if he paid them 2 million to play
I would take jj reddick 1 year $20 million over Fournier.
If we added
Reddick over Fournier
Porter over Burks
Drummond over Noel
And kept all of the other players the same, what’s the win differential between for the Knicks by switching out those 3 players? 1 game maybe 2?
Clearly, Grimes was picked at the upper edge of consensus predictions. Here are 3 examples:
The Athletic (Sam Vecenie) — 38th overall
The Ringer (Kevin O’Connor) — 41st overall
Bleacher Report (Jonathan Wasserman) — 30th overall
However, a few pundits really like him, and clearly Thibs does. The thinking of a few is that Gibbons has the talent to be a near-starter in a years or so, on shooting plus defense plus athleticism.
Then, of course there is McBride, which one Knicks site has predicted as "The Steal of the Draft" (link), and whom Thibs seems to really love, but whom no one else wanted to pick before the 36th pick of the draft. He clearly has some skills that make him fit well as a "Thibs guy," particularly at PG, but I can't QUITE get my head around the idea that the entire rest of the league minimized his value, while Thibs/Rose had it right.
If they did, of course, then the seeming big hole at PG behind Rose and whomever they bring in with the cap room left, goes away--if not this year, then by 2022-3. McBride shoots well, makes very few mistakes, and can apparently pass well enough for the NBA. And play D from the PG position. Hopefully, D Rose can function as a mentor for McBride. But, boy, I need to get my head around the idea that Thibs/Rose were right and everyone else was wrong. I struggle with that.
Of course, Quickley might fit in there somewhere as well: is he more of a PG than a lot here give him credit for being (he has hardly been mentioned)? If McBride plus Quickley can fill a lot of PG space, then a lot of the problems with the current team seem to go away--with the bunch of future Knicks draft picks helping for more talent, or in trades. But, this is way more of a gamble than I was expecting from draft night plus FAs.
I guess I need to just stay tuned.
Link - ( New Window )
I would take jj reddick 1 year $20 million over Fournier.
If we added
Reddick over Fournier
Porter over Burks
Drummond over Noel
And kept all of the other players the same, what’s the win differential between for the Knicks by switching out those 3 players? 1 game maybe 2?
You dont really think a 38 year old jj redick is better than Fournier do you?
I would take jj reddick 1 year $20 million over Fournier.
If we added
Reddick over Fournier
Porter over Burks
Drummond over Noel
And kept all of the other players the same, what’s the win differential between for the Knicks by switching out those 3 players? 1 game maybe 2?
You officially jumped the shark.
Reddick at this point can't play more than 20 minutes and is a pure spot up shooter.
Drummond plays zero defense.
This is your off-season plan to keep cap and be back in the lottery.
Ridiculous
Quote:
Bullock (arguably the worst of the 3) got snapped up for a contract virtually identical to Burks the first hour of FA by Dallas. So this concept that we could repeat last year's game plan was dubious to work again. Sure we could have gone and signed other guys, but we know those 3 worked really well in Thibs system. Why risk it with other unnamed vets?
Because Thibs should be able to change his system to accommodate players. Burks is a scrap heap guy, same with Noel. And I doubt there's any other team in the league that values Derrick Rose as highly as we do.
You have a good relationship with him, have him go out and see if he can find a deal. Maybe that's what they did, no way of knowing.
I dunno, it's clear to me there are people who are happy with what the Knicks did and I get that. I had a fun time rooting for the team last year, but that's because I expected nothing and there was the hope for the future. The promise of FA and cap space. But that's gone now and we have a middling team (somewhere between the 4-9 seed team I'd suspect). But it feels like in the NBA you either want to be at the top of the pile, or the bottom. Mediocrity hampers your ability to get better.
pretty well known that other teams were after Noel..
Also it has already been said the Knicks had to outbid chicago
I'm certainly not advocating for blind trust or anything like that, but we're one year removed from them drafting Immanuel Quickley 25th and getting an all-rookie player at that slot.
I think he will retire, he had nothing left at the end of the year.
Maybe Brooklyn gives him the minimum to sit on the bench but I can't see him being in anyone's rotation
In this scenario I keeping rose for both options although would have been fine with Cameron Payne
What is the win differential between:
Fournier
Burks
Noel
Reddick
Porter or Rudy gay
Drummond
Either way these guys are at best the 4th option at best, 1 Randle, 2 Rj and 3 rose, I could argue that Quickley is 4th option, but let’s say Fournier is your 4th option vs reddick, how many extra wins does it lead to? If you play reddick 25 minutes a night it means more Quickley minutes.
Your telling me we go from 6-8 seed to out of the playoffs swapping reddick for Fournier?
Quote:
looks done but I wouldn't hate giving him the veterans minimum. He lives in Brooklyn and is a good teammate.
I think he will retire, he had nothing left at the end of the year.
Maybe Brooklyn gives him the minimum to sit on the bench but I can't see him being in anyone's rotation
I'm not particularly invested in them bringing in Reddick. He's probably finished (nice career). Of the realistic names I'd probably go Schroeder for 1 year (don't think it's actually realistic) or Reggie Jackson.
You said I would give a 38 yr old broken Reddick 1 year -20 million.
Have you watched Fournier play?
He is going to give you 18-20 and .380+ from 3.
He is worth the contract he got and is a huge upgrade.
Reddick in his prime wasn't Fournier.
I will give the Noel contract all day but Fournier was a really good signing with a 4 year team option
Can't tell if cav's fan punk is trolling us or not. ;)
In this scenario I keeping rose for both options although would have been fine with Cameron Payne
What is the win differential between:
Fournier
Burks
Noel
Reddick
Porter or Rudy gay
Drummond
Either way these guys are at best the 4th option at best, 1 Randle, 2 Rj and 3 rose, I could argue that Quickley is 4th option, but let’s say Fournier is your 4th option vs reddick, how many extra wins does it lead to? If you play reddick 25 minutes a night it means more Quickley minutes.
Your telling me we go from 6-8 seed to out of the playoffs swapping reddick for Fournier?
Payne took less to stay in PHX he knows he is going to get minutes there with CP3 resting and wants a ring.
Fournier is right now your 2nd option over RJ because he can create has own shot better than RJ currently hopefully that's not for too long.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
32s
Free agent G Patty Mills has agreed to a two-year, $12M deal with the Brooklyn Nets, his agent Steven Heumann of
@CAA_Basketball
tells ESPN. Deal includes a player option.
Just curious what top FA are you thinking that 30 something win team is attracting? We were 10 games over this year with about 55 mill in cap space yesterday and didn't even get a sniff from Lowry or CP3.
Thing is, if you like Fournier, sign him. I think he'll be a nice upgrade for this team.
I think my biggest issue is the Noel contract. When you have Mitch, who's a better, younger player with a chance to be an actual 2 way player on the roster, why give that contract to Noel? It's not like he hasn't had his share of injury concerns through the years as well.
Third offseason in a row with cap space. Fourth time's the charm, I guess? :)
If there's one thing I trust Leon Rose to have a good feel for, it's what can be done on the FA market.
Quote:
I will take 7-8 less wins to save cap space.
Thing is, if you like Fournier, sign him. I think he'll be a nice upgrade for this team.
I think my biggest issue is the Noel contract. When you have Mitch, who's a better, younger player with a chance to be an actual 2 way player on the roster, why give that contract to Noel? It's not like he hasn't had his share of injury concerns through the years as well.
This i agree with, i dont like the Noel deal either could of had 18 to 20 million right now to sign a point or trade for one
He is 4 months removed from surgery, there was a picture of him working out without the boot a month ago.
Maybe he had a set back?
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
32s
Free agent G Patty Mills has agreed to a two-year, $12M deal with the Brooklyn Nets, his agent Steven Heumann of
@CAA_Basketball
tells ESPN. Deal includes a player option.
that is big time for them.
depth wise, playing style- keeping brown and getting him
They desperately need this with Kawhi out for most of the regular season.
I want to see the Knicks wins championship, nothing else matters to me. I know nothing this offseason was going to get us remotely close to being able to do that, but we have eliminated the next 2 years. Year 3 these become expiring contracts so we can sign and trade for potential stars. Nothing we did this offseason will significantly change the outcome. Worst case scenario is probably a play in game best case scenario is winning the first round of a playoff series, which means we would have to be the 5 seed because 6,7 and 8 is automatic first round knock out.
just proves the point you dknt need cap space to have a chance at high priced guys
Quote:
I will take 7-8 less wins to save cap space.
Thing is, if you like Fournier, sign him. I think he'll be a nice upgrade for this team.
I think my biggest issue is the Noel contract. When you have Mitch, who's a better, younger player with a chance to be an actual 2 way player on the roster, why give that contract to Noel? It's not like he hasn't had his share of injury concerns through the years as well.
Nerlens is very good defensively and a pro's pro. Better than Mitch in a bunch of ways. He earned that contract. Mitch isn't durable either and is an asset you may need to trade for a star. Thibs wants rim protectors behind tight perimeter defenders. You can't put all that on Mitch and not have depth there until Mitch shows he really can be a Gobert/Capela type who can grind it out night after night.
Nerlens Noel led the league in Defensive Box Plus-Minus - ( New Window )
I want to see the Knicks wins championship, nothing else matters to me. I know nothing this offseason was going to get us remotely close to being able to do that, but we have eliminated the next 2 years. Year 3 these become expiring contracts so we can sign and trade for potential stars. Nothing we did this offseason will significantly change the outcome. Worst case scenario is probably a play in game best case scenario is winning the first round of a playoff series, which means we would have to be the 5 seed because 6,7 and 8 is automatic first round knock out.
Wasnt the plan for most to trade for a star?? what changed yesterday? they can still trade for a star player
We will never know what others were offering.
I like having him back and if he plays is well as he did last year 10 million is not a lot.
I agree that there were a lot of other priorities for this team for the team at 10 million per.
I would have like to see what was out there before they committed to him but he was obviously a priority signing to Rose since the deal was announced right away.
It's not even the worst deal at this position. Zach Collins got 3/22 and hasn't played basketball in two years and is coming off his second consecutive foot surgery
Quote:
It maybe the worse free agent signing of the offseason and its probably not close, maybe Mcdermont 3 for 42 is a close 2nd
It's not even the worst deal at this position. Zach Collins got 3/22 and hasn't played basketball in two years and is coming off his second consecutive foot surgery
Or Caruso at 4/37 is another obvious one that sucks more.
It's a fine deal, not great, but fine.
@ShamsCharania
·
16s
The Miami Heat have pulled the qualifying offer on Kendrick Nunn, making him an unrestricted free agent, sources tell
@TheAthletic
@Stadium
.
@ShamsCharania
·
16s
The Miami Heat have pulled the qualifying offer on Kendrick Nunn, making him an unrestricted free agent, sources tell
@TheAthletic
@Stadium
.
Wonder if a team was ready to sign him and he asked to get his qualifying offer rscinded
Lebron, Howard, Melo, Westbrook, AD
NBA is fun and all, but it could be so much better without the hand-picked superstar teams.
I almost never root for the defending champs but lets go Bucks.
I want to see the Knicks wins championship, nothing else matters to me. I know nothing this offseason was going to get us remotely close to being able to do that, but we have eliminated the next 2 years. Year 3 these become expiring contracts so we can sign and trade for potential stars. Nothing we did this offseason will significantly change the outcome. Worst case scenario is probably a play in game best case scenario is winning the first round of a playoff series, which means we would have to be the 5 seed because 6,7 and 8 is automatic first round knock out.
This line of thinking is why people say rebuilding doesn't work in New York. If you don't see the importance of an organization that still has the stench of being a multiple decade dumpster fire being good and stable for a couple years idk what to tell you.
Depending how this plays out the Knicks could still offer a 1 or 2 year deal at 8 million per.
Knicks can offer him an opportunity to prove himself in a pseudo starting role.
Depending how this plays out the Knicks could still offer a 1 or 2 year deal at 8 million per.
Knicks can offer him an opportunity to prove himself in a pseudo starting role.
I'd be surprised if they couldn't move Knox and free up some of that money too if they wanted to
Because Burks and Noel at 10 million to a team at the deadline are definitely a possibility.
These are not 20 million dollars deals.
These are players that have proven to be assets.
Burks is instant offense and has proven to be able to play big at the end of games.
Noel is one of the best rim protectors around and did it in big spots last season.
10 million is nothing to fit under a cap.
He would start.
Rose, IQ, Burks off the bench. McBride in the G League to start.
He's a combo guard. But you're playing with 3 other guys that are plus passers for their position.
As I said above I'd prefer it if he was a better playmaker but if he was a better playmaker he wouldn't be on the market.
Not a lot of 25 year olds who shoot 49% from the field and 38% from 3 that hit free agency.
Look, ideally we'd land CP3 in his prime. It's not happening. We're all grasping at straws to solve the decade long hole at the 1 spot. Is he a quarterback type? No. But neither is Rose for the most part. The offense will run thru JR quite a bit and hopefully the surrounding pieces (improved RJB, upgrade of the 3rd option in EF etc.) are better. Can Nunn play a viable role here? Yeah.
Quote:
To be the starting pg even though he is not a point guard?
He's a combo guard. But you're playing with 3 other guys that are plus passers for their position.
As I said above I'd prefer it if he was a better playmaker but if he was a better playmaker he wouldn't be on the market.
Not a lot of 25 year olds who shoot 49% from the field and 38% from 3 that hit free agency.
58% from 2...93% from the line.
Rose, IQ, Burks, Obi, Taj, Noel
That's an 11 man rotation, before you even get to McBride and Grimes.
Too many.
If Knicks are going to add significant PG help (Nunn or whoever), the superfluous guy, to me, is Burks.
People say: why not bring Burks back? The answer is because you gave a ton of money to Fournier, who wasn't here last year. And you have RJ and IQ.
Right now, you can at least rationalize Burks as a ball handler, because Knicks are short at PG. You fill that hole and you're paying Burks a lot of money to eat minutes from guys who should be on the court.
He played 63 games at PG his rookie year.
As most have stated is he a play making PG no.
He is not strong defender either but you can't deny his shot making ability at the PG position.
If you can get him on a prove it deal at this point it's a steal.
Another young shooter on the cheap.
I don't see him getting a long deal right now and we can offer playing time and still the opportunity to win.
I just don't think Thibs would be big on his lack of defense.
"His defensive intensity is a world better than it was last season. This is the best way to describe it.
Last season, there were a ton of times where you wondered if he was asleep or not. Rotations would happen, passes would go by, or players would relocate and Nunn wouldn’t move, turn his head, or anything.
Then, you have this season. He seems like a different guy.
Whether it be getting in on the scrums, diving through passes, or simply fighting harder on that side than he has before, you can see a different level of defensive intensity from the guy. I love it and along with his ability to simply knock down shots, his increased level of defensive effort is a welcomed sight and a reason to continue to keep him around as well."
Link - ( New Window )
@ShamsCharania
·
23s
Sources: The San Antonio Spurs are finalizing sending DeMar DeRozan to the Chicago Bulls for Thad Young, a future first-round pick and two second-round picks.
Ball-Lavine-Derozan-Lauri?-Vucevic
Not a bad starting 5
“K. Nunn has incredible competitive character. He really does. He has a grit and a perseverance to him that not only do you have confidence that he’ll be able to respond with this kind of adversity, but you respect him so much that you’re, like, really rooting for him, and you really want it of him. It was great just to see all the work that nobody else does see behind the scenes. He just grinds and works at it every day….We needed playmaking. We needed scoring.”
While somewhat limited at just 6’2″, Nunn’s propensity to dig in defensively has started to deliver some positive results. Averaging 1.2 steals per game for the season, Nunn has averaged 5.5 deflections and 3.5 steals over his past two games, thus providing coach Spoelstra with something additional to Nunn’s primary role as a scorer.
Link - ( New Window )
Ball-Lavine-Derozan-Lauri?-Vucevic
Not a bad starting 5
That's brutal defensively lol. Ball is the only average to above average defender there
Quote:
are really going for it. Three future firsts gone.
Ball-Lavine-Derozan-Lauri?-Vucevic
Not a bad starting 5
That's brutal defensively lol. Ball is the only average to above average defender there
Yeah they won't win much in the playoffs but that should get them to the playoffs. I think Vucevic is super underrated, as is Lavine.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
3m
DeMar DeRozan is finalizing a three-year, $85 million-plus deal to join the Chicago Bulls, sources tell
@TheAthletic
@Stadium
Derozan was not a great fit with the Knicks, but the Bulls have to be considered in the mix in the Eastern Conference 2nd tier with the Knicks, Hawks, Pacers, Hornets and Celtics.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
3m
DeMar DeRozan is finalizing a three-year, $85 million-plus deal to join the Chicago Bulls, sources tell
@TheAthletic
@Stadium
If the Knicks traded a rotation piece and 3 picks for the right to give Derozan that deal we'd be clowned for eternity.
If the Knicks traded a rotation piece and 3 picks for the right to give Derozan that deal we'd be clowned for eternity.
So true. I'm sure the Bulls will be praised though
Quote:
Wow this is a lot more than I expected.
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
3m
DeMar DeRozan is finalizing a three-year, $85 million-plus deal to join the Chicago Bulls, sources tell
@TheAthletic
@Stadium
If the Knicks traded a rotation piece and 3 picks for the right to give Derozan that deal we'd be clowned for eternity.
Yeah no thank you.
That's a deal that won't age well.
Ball-Lavine-Derozan-Lauri?-Vucevic
Not a bad starting 5
what's interesting to me is that we probably had the pieces to mirror these last 3 big moves by the Bulls (Vucevic at the deadline and Ball/Derozan this week). Of course they already had a very good lead guard in the fold in LaVine.
As a bulls fan I'd probably be happy about that in the short term. Longer term we've seen this play out time and time again where teams empty their coffers to keep a star only for that star to still force their way out because they're stuck in mediocrity without any assets to take another step forward
I would take jj reddick 1 year $20 million over Fournier.
If we added
Reddick over Fournier
Porter over Burks
Drummond over Noel
And kept all of the other players the same, what’s the win differential between for the Knicks by switching out those 3 players? 1 game maybe 2?
Garbage take.
And adds some much needed defense
Quote:
defending the Bulls but this was likely done in part to appease LaVine. If the Knicks were looking to appease/keep a young superstar I think we'd be "less" bothered by giving up assets for DeRozan
As a bulls fan I'd probably be happy about that in the short term. Longer term we've seen this play out time and time again where teams empty their coffers to keep a star only for that star to still force their way out because they're stuck in mediocrity without any assets to take another step forward
Fair but Ball is 23, Williams is 20 next season, Dosunmu was expected to go round 1 and he landed there round 2 and they still have Markkanen who is 24 + White who is 21. I think the Bulls have a decent young core.
No. Burks was reported as fully guaranteed but I don't believe Noel has (yet)
Quote:
are really going for it. Three future firsts gone.
Ball-Lavine-Derozan-Lauri?-Vucevic
Not a bad starting 5
That's brutal defensively lol. Ball is the only average to above average defender there
They are brutal defensively when you completely mess up the rotation. Patrick Williams will be starting, who is a very good defender. Lauri is a RFA and likely gone. Ball is a good defender as well. Caruso is a very good defender and will be getting a lot of time as well. Previous regime did a terrible job bringing in poor defensive players. It is changing quite a bit. Not the old Pistons by any stretch of the imagination, but should be middle of the pack
Also, what are the three future firsts? One from Vucevic, and now one for Derozan? Am I missing one? There was another 1st for Vucevic, but that was the past draft, so is no longer a future first
White 22 in Feb
Ball 24 in October
Vucevic 31 in October
Williams 20 in August
LaVine 27 in March
Caruso 27
Dosunmu 22 in January
DeRozan 33
Will they win a title? Who knows? Probably not but that's not bad at all.
Locks - Bucks/Nets/Hawks/Sixers/Bulls/Heat
Fringe - Celtics/Knicks/Hornets/Wizards/Pacers
Maybe fringe - Cavs/Raptors
Lottery - Magic/Pistons
White 22 in Feb
Ball 24 in October
Vucevic 31 in October
Williams 20 in August
LaVine 27 in March
Caruso 27
Dosunmu 22 in January
DeRozan 33
Will they win a title? Who knows? Probably not but that's not bad at all.
Yeah, as a Bulls fan I am beyond thrilled with the new regime. Marko Simonivic is also coming over. He is 21 and is an intriguing player
Kay is a fucking idiot shit stirrer. He shouldn't be allowed to talk NBA. HE knows baseball, still sucks there too, but he knows the game and nuances. NBA he is fucking lost.
The Knicks got better and have 3-4 young players (not counting rooks) that COULD in fact get better. They probably will, because this team is well coached and players improved from 19-20 to 20-21 under Thibs.
Rant over. Kay sucks
Quote:
If the Knicks traded a rotation piece and 3 picks for the right to give Derozan that deal we'd be clowned for eternity.
So true. I'm sure the Bulls will be praised though
Reality is Bulls have been just like the Knicks in that neither has been able to attract marquee FAs. This is the reality of how you have to acquire talent. 2nd rounders are lotto tickets, and chances are the 1st rounder will not contribute as much as Derozan.
Since last year, Bulls have added Williams, Vucevic, Ball, Derozan, and Caruso to Lavine, White. That’s a pretty impressive improvement for the outlook of the organization.
I think it could work
Kay is a fucking idiot shit stirrer. He shouldn't be allowed to talk NBA. HE knows baseball, still sucks there too, but he knows the game and nuances. NBA he is fucking lost.
The Knicks got better and have 3-4 young players (not counting rooks) that COULD in fact get better. They probably will, because this team is well coached and players improved from 19-20 to 20-21 under Thibs.
Rant over. Kay sucks
there is a reason his show is going down the shitter, i feel bad for Kagreca stuck with those 2 morons
Their additions are Tony Snell, Cody Zeller and Ben Mclemore.
i am in the minority i like carton
Wow, pretty big news there.
@wojespn
Restricted free agent Talen Horton-Tucker has agreed to a three-year, $32M deal to stay with the Los Angeles Lakers, his agents
@KlutchSports
CEO Rich Paul and Lucas Newton tell ESPN.
My mistake you are right, not fully guaranteed 3rd years, so we dont know how much of it is guaranteed
This deserves greater attention.
That reads as if the Knicks can't clear them off the books, we need to see what the guarantees look like before we can really judge. Obviously, that's better than fully guaranteed either way.
@ShamsCharania
·
15s
Kendrick Nunn has agreed to a two-year, $10M deal with the Lakers, his agent Adam Pensack tells
@TheAthletic
@Stadium
.
@wojespn
·
50s
Free agent guard Kendrick Nunn has agreed to a two-year deal with the Los Angeles Lakers, source tells ESPN. Deal includes a player option. Nunn turned down significantly more money to chase a title with the Lakers.
@ShamsCharania
·
33s
Nunn's deal has a player option in Year 2. He turned down more money with the Knicks and other teams to join the Lakers.
I had some drivetime yesterday, gave Carton and Roberts a shot, Roberts was trying to talk about the Yankees, and Carton was shouting over Roberts about how Yankees and Mets fans obsess over each other.
So I switched to Michael Kay, and he sounded like such a doofus I gave it all up after 5 minutes and switched to some easy listening music
NY sports talk radio is awful these days
its going to be Jackson or schroeder..
putting aside the below market deal - finding minutes in that rotation will be no easy task.
Quote:
But that seems like poor representation
putting aside the below market deal - finding minutes in that rotation will be no easy task.
Nunn should have looked at Montrez as a cautionary tale
Tough to see him getting more anywhere else. I bet they waive Vildoza and do a 1 year 12 mil deal.
Having the ball in Randle's hands for 35 min a night is fool's gold. He's not LBK or Luca. The poor decision making has been his weakness his entire career. Was much better all season last year. Kudos to him for that, but a lead facilitator he is not.
Having the ball in Randle's hands for 35 min a night is fool's gold. He's not LBK or Luca. The poor decision making has been his weakness his entire career. Was much better all season last year. Kudos to him for that, but a lead facilitator he is not.
They tried.
PG Kendrick Nunn off board. PG Dennis Schroder is left. When this process started, one source indicated Schroder was asking for $25M starting salary.
He wants that Lowry money.
PG Kendrick Nunn off board. PG Dennis Schroder is left. When this process started, one source indicated Schroder was asking for $25M starting salary.
He wants that Lowry money.
Berman is such a clown. Nothing to do with this specific tweet but his cap math was wildly off earlier lol
@NYPost_Berman
PG Kendrick Nunn off board. PG Dennis Schroder is left. When this process started, one source indicated Schroder was asking for $25M starting salary.
PG Kendrick Nunn off board. PG Dennis Schroder is left. When this process started, one source indicated Schroder was asking for $25M starting salary.
He wants that Lowry money.
The word Schroeder is going to morph into a verb in NBA circles to mean "pissed away more $".
@IanBegley
·
1m
League source confirms Kendrick Nunn had contract discussions with Knicks during free agency period but chose to sign 2-year, $10M deal w/Lakers instead of signing with NYK or his other other suitors. Athletic first reported NYK/Nunn detail & says NYK offered Nunn more $ than LAL
Quote:
we couldn't land a damn lead guard with the most $ to spend and so many lead guards available. Its been friggin' decades since we had a lead guard (other than a month of Lin).
Having the ball in Randle's hands for 35 min a night is fool's gold. He's not LBK or Luca. The poor decision making has been his weakness his entire career. Was much better all season last year. Kudos to him for that, but a lead facilitator he is not.
They tried.
So did LAL, Mia, Wash, NO, Chi, Utah, Phx, Cle and they all succeeded.
Quote:
In comment 15321515 NYG22 said:
Quote:
we couldn't land a damn lead guard with the most $ to spend and so many lead guards available. Its been friggin' decades since we had a lead guard (other than a month of Lin).
Having the ball in Randle's hands for 35 min a night is fool's gold. He's not LBK or Luca. The poor decision making has been his weakness his entire career. Was much better all season last year. Kudos to him for that, but a lead facilitator he is not.
They tried.
So did LAL, Mia, Wash, NO, Chi, Utah, Phx, Cle and they all succeeded.
Who did Wash and Utah get that you’d want? They offered Payne and Nunn more. What more could they have done?
I do agree with this, but there have been Schroder rumors for months. He gets to the rim like Thibs likes. He's a supercharged version of Elf for better or worse. He just needs to be more efficient with his scoring, but he can get buckets when he's on.
Payton started playoff games for this team. They're clearly not THAT particular about who they play at PG, lol.
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In comment 15321516 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15321515 NYG22 said:
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we couldn't land a damn lead guard with the most $ to spend and so many lead guards available. Its been friggin' decades since we had a lead guard (other than a month of Lin).
Having the ball in Randle's hands for 35 min a night is fool's gold. He's not LBK or Luca. The poor decision making has been his weakness his entire career. Was much better all season last year. Kudos to him for that, but a lead facilitator he is not.
They tried.
So did LAL, Mia, Wash, NO, Chi, Utah, Phx, Cle and they all succeeded.
Who did Wash and Utah get that you’d want? They offered Payne and Nunn more. What more could they have done?
Dinwiddie and Conley are better than anything we have.
I thought Leon Rose was a "play-maker" not just a guy who would be somewhat crafty on draft night for marginal benefit but otherwise not capable of bringing in "move the needle" players.
Lot of people saying this today but offering no explanation how you get a player to sign here as a free agent when you offer more money.
Marc Berman
@NYPost_Berman
·
10s
Don't know if there is any real interest as fallback but I do know Knicks called their starting point guard Elfrid Payton when free agency opened last night. Dennis Schroder, Reggie Jackson still on PG board.
Marc Berman
@NYPost_Berman
·
10s
Don't know if there is any real interest as fallback but I do know Knicks called their starting point guard Elfrid Payton when free agency opened last night. Dennis Schroder, Reggie Jackson still on PG board.
if this happens i am going full gmen46
I would too but it's not that crazy to think it's possible. I mean the guy started 63 games last year and for most of the playoffs despite it being obvious to anyone and everyone that he was actively hurting the team.
I am not saying he was. I am saying that there were 10+ PGs that were in this summer's FA market and better than what we have and none of them belong to us now. Major fail.
Fourth in the East last year and now Atlanta, Miami and Chicago have now blown by us. We got marginally better while they all "did work".
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was never, ever coming here. He openly said he wanted to stay in Utah.
I am not saying he was. I am saying that there were 10+ PGs that were in this summer's FA market and better than what we have and none of them belong to us now. Major fail.
Fourth in the East last year and now Atlanta, Miami and Chicago have now blown by us. We got marginally better while they all "did work".
Oh, I don't disagree they have been oddly unable to improve the PG position (to this point) in 2 off-seasons. I was just pointing out that Conley was a completely unrealistic option. Flat out said he wanted to stay and he and Mitchell are very close (Mitchell essentially calls him his mentor) so that wasn't going to happen.
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refuse to believe that. If he were brought back I'd have serious concerns about the future of this franchise based on that move alone, I'm not even kidding.
I would too but it's not that crazy to think it's possible. I mean the guy started 63 games last year and for most of the playoffs despite it being obvious to anyone and everyone that he was actively hurting the team.
Even Thibs pulled the plug at the end. If he's back, they completely deserve to be tarred and feathered, I think this is Berman just looking for engagement.
Id like to know what the deal is with the 3rd year. Is it like 8 of 10 mill is guaranteed or like 2 of 10 mill, ha, makes a big diff.
@ShamsCharania
·
33s
Nunn's deal has a player option in Year 2. He turned down more money with the Knicks and other teams to join the Lakers.
Too young to chase a ring over playing time and experience.
Could have lined himself up for a big payday.
Now he will be luck to see the court more than 10-15 minutes a game.
if this happens i am going full gmen46
Easy. Go easy, man.
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Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
33s
Nunn's deal has a player option in Year 2. He turned down more money with the Knicks and other teams to join the Lakers.
Too young to chase a ring over playing time and experience.
Could have lined himself up for a big payday.
Now he will be luck to see the court more than 10-15 minutes a game.
Yea, that one is weird. The power of Lebron I guess.
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Marc Berman
@NYPost_Berman
·
10s
Don't know if there is any real interest as fallback but I do know Knicks called their starting point guard Elfrid Payton when free agency opened last night. Dennis Schroder, Reggie Jackson still on PG board.
if this happens i am going full gmen46
I won’t watch at all next season if they bring that turd back. That’ll be my breaking point.
Id like to know what the deal is with the 3rd year. Is it like 8 of 10 mill is guaranteed or like 2 of 10 mill, ha, makes a big diff.
NYK cannot keep getting credit for not executing bad contracts. At some point, they have to do something impactful.
Point guard: Westbrook/Nunn
Shooting guard: Ellington/THT/Monk
Small Forward: James/Bazemore/McKinnie
Power forward: Davis/Ariza/Anthony
Center: Gasol/Howard
Sarcasm
NYK cannot keep getting credit for not executing bad contracts. At some point, they have to do something impactful.
No one is giving them credit for it. The point is why lock yourself into bad deals that don't give you flexibility to eventually get over the hump? It's much easier to move sub $15M contracts
Then we get to run it back again in 2022-2023 with the same team with a now maxed out Julius Randle, really exciting, this front office is incredible. Be nice if we can actually hear them talk and be accountable for that Noel deal.
For the first time in my life I will actually root for the Lakers to win it this year with Melo on that team. He deserves a ring and everyone can leave the guy alone.
Point guard: Westbrook/Nunn
Shooting guard: Ellington/THT/Monk
Small Forward: James/Bazemore/McKinnie
Power forward: Davis/Ariza/Anthony
Center: Gasol/Howard
Read this on Twitter: the purple and Golden Girls
I feel like this was their plan all along.
Rose, Fournier, Noel and Burks.
It tough to swallow but they moved quickly on all 4.
I feel like this was their plan all along.
Rose, Fournier, Noel and Burks.
It tough to swallow but they moved quickly on all 4.
There is a lot of smoke around the Kbicks thinking they can get Lillard, perhaps they are not spendingnon PG because of that?
Nobkdy said anything about trading the players they signed, gice it a rest we get it you are miserable...
Wonder if they could finesse Brunson somehow.
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Knicks and mavs discussed a sign and trade for Bullock, doesnt know if that could still be an option
Wonder if they could finesse Brunson somehow.
I doubt it, probably have to include a couple of 1sts
Why would the Mavs do that?
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Knicks and mavs discussed a sign and trade for Bullock, doesnt know if that could still be an option
Why would the Mavs do that?
Usually for 1 of 2 reasons. Either they want to save cap space by sending the Knicks a player or two back or the Knicks kick in a 2nd round pick or something to get a trade exception.
Point guard: Westbrook/Nunn
Shooting guard: Ellington/THT/Monk
Small Forward: James/Bazemore/McKinnie
Power forward: Davis/Ariza/Anthony
Center: Gasol/Howard
I can't believe we live in a world where Dwight Fucking Howard is one day going to make it into Springfield.
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kinda bummed about Nunn as he could have at least competed with guys here. I mean i wanted no part of schroeder and if he is some sort of cancer then forget it, but i mean schroeder at 8 mill is a pretty good deal. I said it earlier but he is basically a good version of Elf (Penatrating guard, ehh distributor, cant shoot) and a better version of elf is still an improvement.
Id like to know what the deal is with the 3rd year. Is it like 8 of 10 mill is guaranteed or like 2 of 10 mill, ha, makes a big diff.
NYK cannot keep getting credit for not executing bad contracts. At some point, they have to do something impactful.
LOL WHAT!?!?
I'm sure Dame is thrilled...
He's going to ask out before too long @ this rate. & I don't blame him.
Is there ANY way we can get him without giving up RJ?
Is there ANY way we can get him without giving up RJ?
No chance.
Is there ANY way we can get him without giving up RJ?
it would be hard money wise to do it now without rj
Is there ANY way we can get him without giving up RJ?
Not a chance unless Quickley, Toppin, or one of this years rookies flash enough for them to think they can be future stars
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The Lakers' new projected depth chart:
Point guard: Westbrook/Nunn
Shooting guard: Ellington/THT/Monk
Small Forward: James/Bazemore/McKinnie
Power forward: Davis/Ariza/Anthony
Center: Gasol/Howard
I can't believe we live in a world where Dwight Fucking Howard is one day going to make it into Springfield.
why? The first half of his career makes him a no doubt HOFer.
How did Jessica Alba get your phone?
I agree, I think he's being underrated a bit. He had the same exact eFG as Lillard. He can really shoot the ball, and can do it off the dribble.
I do wonder who is going to defend the opposition's best wing player though.
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kinda bummed about Nunn as he could have at least competed with guys here. I mean i wanted no part of schroeder and if he is some sort of cancer then forget it, but i mean schroeder at 8 mill is a pretty good deal. I said it earlier but he is basically a good version of Elf (Penatrating guard, ehh distributor, cant shoot) and a better version of elf is still an improvement.
Id like to know what the deal is with the 3rd year. Is it like 8 of 10 mill is guaranteed or like 2 of 10 mill, ha, makes a big diff.
NYK cannot keep getting credit for not executing bad contracts. At some point, they have to do something impactful.
You mean after being pathetic for so long and signing expensive Free agents that kept leading us nowhere- getting a 4th seed with the season they had - you refer that to "not impactful?"
How "impactful" were the Nets before getting Durant, Irving and Harden? How many playoff series did they win?
You see how the Nets became a title threat. You see how Lakers got LeBron and Davis. So why do you want to settle for non-superstars?
I don't know. Brunson is a UFA next offseason. I'd love to be able to bring in Brunson though. And if we can extend even better. I'd trade Mitch for that.
Portland's next move is to trade McCollum. They'll hope/pray Lillard will like a possibility that they can move on.
I don't think the Mavs would be interested. They have Moses Brown now and re-signed Cauley Stein.
We end up with
Dame
Burks
Fournier
Randle
Mitch
Rose
Grimes
McBride
Taj
The guy from texas
That wound be a bad defensive team, but probably fit a max the following year. Is a core of lillard, Randle and let’s say beal enough to win a ring with ring chasers? Prob not
I definitely would and I’m a fan of Mitch.
We end up with
Dame
Burks
Fournier
Randle
Mitch
Rose
Grimes
McBride
Taj
The guy from texas
That wound be a bad defensive team, but probably fit a max the following year. Is a core of lillard, Randle and let’s say beal enough to win a ring with ring chasers? Prob not
Don't forget Noel 3 for 32 million.
if they sign Jackson I’d give them an solid A- for the offseason— only real knocks I would have are 1) too many protections on the Charlotte pick and 2) too much money/years for Noel given he’s a backup 5, but hey those things are minor issues in my book…. Buttttt right now since they haven’t addressed PG really it’s tough to say what the grade is. That’s what makes me feel like there’s gotta be some move that’s coming that might give us a bit of an “aha” moment (not saying it’s gonna be some genius blockbuster trade, but SOMETHING will happen I believe simply because this just feels like we’re one solid piece away from completing a pretty nice puzzle in my book.
It might be why they lost out on Nunn and have not made a deal with Schroeder or Jackson.
It might be why they lost out on Nunn and have not made a deal with Schroeder or Jackson.
Why not just a 3 year deal like everyone else they signed?
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speculate that the Knicks are looking for a player that will take a 2 year contract, so they can operate as an over the cap team next season.
It might be why they lost out on Nunn and have not made a deal with Schroeder or Jackson.
A 3 year contract is fine too, but guys like Schroeder want a 1 year prove it deal.
Why not just a 3 year deal like everyone else they signed?
Did we ever find out who AR27 is?
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AR27? Also has intel so listen there also.
Seems like he is an agent of some sort! I have missed it, do either him or Carl have anything new? They still need a guard to start ahead of Rose. I think they see Quickley as a 3rd guard and McBride is a rookie.
Did we ever find out who AR27 is?
So sounds like he is going to end up flipped to 3rd team
So sounds like he is going to end up flipped to 3rd team
I'd guess Mavs.
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and he said he hasnt heard from them and said he is waiting for the third team to comment..
So sounds like he is going to end up flipped to 3rd team
I'd guess Mavs.
Mavs are operating as an over the cap team so i dont know who they send out
So sounds like he is going to end up flipped to 3rd team
I would assume OKC or maybe the Spurs.
Immanual Quickley - terrific rookie year despite low 1st round draft spot. Good shooter with limitless range and an effective floater. Shot creation skills need development. While he is a willing passer and low turnover guy, he doesn't appear to be a quarterback type of guard (although certainly too early to close the book on this possibility). He will add strength and that should result in above average defensive prowess (long arms, good awareness and effort already evident last year).
Miles (Deuce) McBride - Intense, competitive guard. While he could develop into a Derek Fisher or Patrick Beverly type (great defensively but relegated to off-ball duty on offense) I think he will ultimately be more than that on offense e.g. a 60-70% of Jrue Holiday. But the key word there is ultimately. Its hard to imagine him playing a lead guard role this upcoming year.
Alec Burks - Skillful, big guard who has historically been brittle. Showed a lot as a scorer last year with a spike in crunch time scoring prowess. Positive player in this stable of guards but I still wouldn't be thrilled with him having a major lead/facilitating role.
So, in summary we have two older, injury prone guys who at times, are legit scoring guards. And two young guys who are promising but no indication that they have skills to play a primary quarterbacking role at this point.
Where do we go from here?
1. Major trade targeting Dame or Fox: this obviously would cost a ton of assets but much of the necessary salary match cannot be traded until December. A combo of Obi, Mitch, IQ etc. (plus picks) doesn't allow for a salary match so we'd have to wait to include guys like Noel. It's hard to imagine this happening any time soon. In addition, this front office, while somewhat creative and averse to bad deals such as Bargnani years ago, doesn't show any signs of having Pat Riley like ability to make things happen.
2. Major trade targeting Sexton: this horse probably left the barn when HOU drafted Green leaving Mobley to CLE and thus removing Obi as a desirable centerpiece for a Sexton trade.
3. Lesser trade. Possible targets Derrick White, DeJounte Murray, Goran Dragic. No rumors to this effect.
4. FA. NYK once again struck out on all PG targets to this point. What remains is not attractive: Reggie Jackson, Dennis Schroeder.
5. Sign and Trade. If Reggie Bullock + a #1 for Jalen Brunson is a possibility, its very much worth pursuing. Brunson isn't elite by any stretch but he is a terrific guy to have in your PG rotation. He's exceptionally bright and hard working, physically strong. While a Kyle Lowry comp is too lofty, Brunson has a lot of the same traits at a similar age.
i was going to post this yesterday, have they worked out together before?
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and he said he hasnt heard from them and said he is waiting for the third team to comment..
So sounds like he is going to end up flipped to 3rd team
I would assume OKC or maybe the Spurs.
Best case is Dallas (with Kleiber or Powell as trade bait) which may pave the way for a Brunson trade to NYK.
Brunson is only one year older.
Brunson is only one year older.
Steep cost but I really love Brunson. I'd hope to get something else like one of their picks last year (Josh Green, Tyler Bey or Tyrell Terry).
Brunson is only one year older.
I don't know enough about Brunson to comment but two things stand out. One, Brunson is going to get paid next offseason and Obi is only in the second year of his deal. Huge advantage for the Obi side there. Two, we have no depth at PF. It would basically be Randle and I'd assume Taj as the backup PF. They'd need to address that.
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In comment 15321898 nygiants16 said:
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and he said he hasnt heard from them and said he is waiting for the third team to comment..
So sounds like he is going to end up flipped to 3rd team
I would assume OKC or maybe the Spurs.
Best case is Dallas (with Kleiber or Powell as trade bait) which may pave the way for a Brunson trade to NYK.
I'd love Brunson but I think there's little to no chance Dallas trades him. They love him. Even if they get Dragic they probably keep him as Dragic can play off the ball.
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you trade Obi for Brunson straight up?
Brunson is only one year older.
I don't know enough about Brunson to comment but two things stand out. One, Brunson is going to get paid next offseason and Obi is only in the second year of his deal. Huge advantage for the Obi side there. Two, we have no depth at PF. It would basically be Randle and I'd assume Taj as the backup PF. They'd need to address that.
Def valid points.
Wow very interesting. I wanted no part of that contract, but for peanuts I'll definitely take him.
Bibby
Baron Davis
Kidd
Mark Jackson (second stint)
Billups
Calderon
and a bunch of others...
Bibby
Baron Davis
Kidd
Mark Jackson (second stint)
Billups
Calderon
and a bunch of others...
He does sorta fit on that list but most of those guys were in literally the last gasps of their careers. If his knees allow it and that's a biggggg if, he's still in the upper half of NBA starting pg's
RJ
Fournier
Mitch
Randle
Gets Rose back with Quickley on the 2nd unit.
Rose
Quickley
Obi
Noel
Burks
That's a pretty deep team
He couldn't stay healthy, but he averaged 19ppg on 42% from the field. Not a 3 point shooter but he never was anyway.
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I know I shouldn't get my hopes up, that he was cooked last year with the Cs, but I can't help it.
He couldn't stay healthy, but he averaged 19ppg on 42% from the field. Not a 3 point shooter but he never was anyway.
He took 8.2 3s per game last year, tied for 12th in the league.
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In comment 15322038 Jan in DC said:
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I know I shouldn't get my hopes up, that he was cooked last year with the Cs, but I can't help it.
He couldn't stay healthy, but he averaged 19ppg on 42% from the field. Not a 3 point shooter but he never was anyway.
He took 8.2 3s per game last year, tied for 12th in the league.
I don't think that volume is abnormal for him, but by todays standards hitting 36-37% isn't great. I've never categorized him as a shooter. I think he has one really good year for shooting 3s.
I don't think that volume is abnormal for him, but by todays standards hitting 36-37% isn't great. I've never categorized him as a shooter. I think he has one really good year for shooting 3s.
True, but as a PG you often end up with the ball with the shot clock running out and have to force shots. The rate is good enough that defenders have to respect it and can’t back off him. Sure beats Elfrid’s 28% anyway. :-)
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In comment 15322148 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15322038 Jan in DC said:
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I know I shouldn't get my hopes up, that he was cooked last year with the Cs, but I can't help it.
He couldn't stay healthy, but he averaged 19ppg on 42% from the field. Not a 3 point shooter but he never was anyway.
He took 8.2 3s per game last year, tied for 12th in the league.
I don't think that volume is abnormal for him, but by todays standards hitting 36-37% isn't great. I've never categorized him as a shooter. I think he has one really good year for shooting 3s.
Agreed, not a great percentage but he does take a lot.
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In comment 15322038 Jan in DC said:
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I know I shouldn't get my hopes up, that he was cooked last year with the Cs, but I can't help it.
He couldn't stay healthy, but he averaged 19ppg on 42% from the field. Not a 3 point shooter but he never was anyway.
He took 8.2 3s per game last year, tied for 12th in the league.
Playing off of Tatum he probably settled for 3s to much
it's gonna be tough to out-bid the teams out of Turkey and China that have interest.
LMAO