If you are worried because Jones has not completed a lot of passes in training camp, I would not worry. He has not had problems completing passes in the past.
His problem has been turnovers. Interceptions and fumbles. Hopefully this problem has been addressed by improving his offensive line and by adding some pretty good receivers. If the interceptions and fumbles continue, then it will be time for us to worry.
Defense also has advantage, no tackling...means D can concentrate on passing, disregard play action, which is a big part of their offense.
Competition should make all better
Iron sharpens iron
I don't think there will be a next guy next year. That said, I'm far from panic mode.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
It's definitely climate change.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
It’s always the same with you too. Any discussion of Jones leads to a negative comment by you criticizing Jones. We are a week into camp with limited access to practice. We are forced to listen to the NY media which loves to create drama rather than report facts.
The defense appears to be ahead at the moment which shouldn’t be a surprise as the Giants might have the best secondary in the NFL. The Giants also have several new weapons that are getting comfortable in a new offense.
Maybe wait until the real games begin?
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
It’s always the same with you too. Any discussion of Jones leads to a negative comment by you criticizing Jones.
I'm merely pointing out the new excuses being rolled out for the struggles Jones seems to be having so far through many reports.
Frankly, I find it very amusing any more and it's definitely a pattern.
Telling, but not very shocking at all.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
I mean this is like getting worked up over someone striking out against the pitching machine in early spring training. Really not a big deal
Although, I do agree overall there's a segment of the fanbase that will continue to make up excuses.
Telling, but not very shocking at all.
Nope it’s not. What do you think will happen if Jones breaks out this season? Will these posters just disappear from the Jones discussions or will they claim that Jones is only successful because of his weapons?
Telling, but not very shocking at all.
Ponderous?
I would hope that we are all Jones supporters at this point but sadly that’s not true. As with the rest of the group I’m hoping that Jones takes a big step forward this season and earns the long term job. If he doesn’t then I will be at the front of the line of those that want to find his replacement in next years draft.
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shocking thing is that you find it amusing.
Telling, but not very shocking at all.
Nope it’s not. What do you think will happen if Jones breaks out this season? Will these posters just disappear from the Jones discussions or will they claim that Jones is only successful because of his weapons?
They might say what a logical person would say...Jones has had 3 up and down years over his career and I am still not convinced what we have here.
And that wouldn’t be out of line. How many ultimatum years end in success?
For Phil, it was more like five years, and the conclusion Bill Parcells drew from the first four was: “Who? You mean that blond guy who’s always on IR? Nice arm. Too bad he can’t stay healthy or read coverage.” Ray Handley drew a similar conclusion in 1991, the difference being that Parcells was sort of right in 1983.
For Eli, it was three years plus the first sixteen weeks of the 2007 season, and the consensus was: “When he’s good, he’s really good; but when he’s bad, he’s really bad.” Not too far from the final verdict on his career, except the italics moved from the second “really” to the first one.
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
It's definitely climate change.
This isnt talked about enough. A 1.4 degree temperature increase results in an additional half liter of sweat per 150 lbs. At 220 Jones is sweating nearly an extra quart, resulting in moist palms, poor grip, weaker spiral and, obviously, a lower completion rate.
This is why I founded the Daniel Jones Fans for Green Energy initiative. If you dont drive electric, get solar panels, and stop supporting beef farms (Im looking at you, Burger Thread...) are you even a real Giants fan?
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In comment 15320552 bw in dc said:
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
It's definitely climate change.
This isnt talked about enough. A 1.4 degree temperature increase results in an additional half liter of sweat per 150 lbs. At 220 Jones is sweating nearly an extra quart, resulting in moist palms, poor grip, weaker spiral and, obviously, a lower completion rate.
This is why I founded the Daniel Jones Fans for Green Energy initiative. If you dont drive electric, get solar panels, and stop supporting beef farms (Im looking at you, Burger Thread...) are you even a real Giants fan?
Doc, I am disappointed in you. You did not mention if that was centigrade or Fahrenheit, also no mention of raised CO2 levels clouding his brain, causing vision loss and muscle control.
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In comment 15320555 Del Shofner said:
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In comment 15320552 bw in dc said:
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
It's definitely climate change.
This isnt talked about enough. A 1.4 degree temperature increase results in an additional half liter of sweat per 150 lbs. At 220 Jones is sweating nearly an extra quart, resulting in moist palms, poor grip, weaker spiral and, obviously, a lower completion rate.
This is why I founded the Daniel Jones Fans for Green Energy initiative. If you dont drive electric, get solar panels, and stop supporting beef farms (Im looking at you, Burger Thread...) are you even a real Giants fan?
Doc, I am disappointed in you. You did not mention if that was centigrade or Fahrenheit, also no mention of raised CO2 levels clouding his brain, causing vision loss and muscle control.
All valid points but I didnt want to give too much away, as my research findings will be published in the upcoming issue of Aww for Fucks Sake Can We Just Go .500 Quarterly
Yes, but let s not complicate the constant over analysis of Jones with common sense.
Thank you.
Since practices started, I've been reading almost daily report after report after report about the struggles Jones has had. THE only comment I made on that was yesterday's on Eric's training camp report that it sounds like Jones isn't sharp yet.
But then I come over here and I see the litany of excuses starting. So I take a not-so-subtle jab at the excuses makers and, of course, it gets turned around that I'm taking shots at Jones.
And I'm sure our Fat friend in Charlotte is up on his roof right now making sure the bat signal is properly positioned to bring in more of the usual suspects. Just wait...
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he’s commenting on you chuckleheads...
Thank you.
Since practices started, I've been reading almost daily report after report after report about the struggles Jones has had. THE only comment I made on that was yesterday's on Eric's training camp report that it sounds like Jones isn't sharp yet.
But then I come over here and I see the litany of excuses starting. So I take a not-so-subtle jab at the excuses makers and, of course, it gets turned around that I'm taking shots at Jones.
And I'm sure our Fat friend in Charlotte is up on his roof right now making sure the bat signal is properly positioned to bring in more of the usual suspects. Just wait...
You've read report after report on Jones' struggles...LMFAO. The reports have been basically - yeah, Jones wasn't sharp, Golladay had a great catch and Shepard has looked very good...with muted reporting and restrictions the only thing I look at is the injury reports - that is the only thing factual.
At this point the only thing we will see is self fulfilling prophecies...(and that does work both ways).
I am pulling for him too. Giants are so much better off if DJ can be the guy. Giving him a third year was how I would play it as well...
Then you are an idiot.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
Exactly. Because pointing out mitigating circumstances is, sadly, the Mark of the Homer.
Ignoring them to push a narrative is simply the Mark of the Enlightened.
Me? I'll just relax and see how things play out over time. I figure that's the Mark of the Patient.
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I really like Jones and lean towards him turning a corner this year.
I am pulling for him too. Giants are so much better off if DJ can be the guy. Giving him a third year was how I would play it as well...
No sh*t. It will be nice not having to use at least one of our two first round picks next year on the next “franchise QB” like the Jets had to do. I say at least one because we might be in a situation where second one is necessary to include in a trade up.
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
Exactly. Because pointing out mitigating circumstances is, sadly, the Mark of the Homer.
Ignoring them to push a narrative is simply the Mark of the Enlightened.
Me? I'll just relax and see how things play out over time. I figure that's the Mark of the Patient.
It is not the Mark of the Patient, it is the Mark of the Stupid. No player is ever going to have everything be 100% perfect around him. If the littlest thing causes Daniel Jones to fold then we need to find someone else.
What those bitching about excuses are using the same information as excuses why DJ is bad.
(reasons=excuses)
Metrics, personnel, field conditions, newness, oldness etc...
The opinions that come from folks that have spent decades "on grass" are the one's that matter.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the team play.
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In comment 15320552 bw in dc said:
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
Exactly. Because pointing out mitigating circumstances is, sadly, the Mark of the Homer.
Ignoring them to push a narrative is simply the Mark of the Enlightened.
Me? I'll just relax and see how things play out over time. I figure that's the Mark of the Patient.
It is not the Mark of the Patient, it is the Mark of the Stupid. No player is ever going to have everything be 100% perfect around him. If the littlest thing causes Daniel Jones to fold then we need to find someone else.
"Stupid is as stupid does," or in your case, as stupid posts.
I never said Jones needs everything around him to be perfect for him to succeed, nor would I ever say that. I merely said that it's way to early to be saying anything definitive about Jones after less than one week of camp, and that his alleged struggles could be attributed to the way practices have been structured, at least in part.
I'm content to see how things develop as camp and the preseason progress. I would advise against rending any garments at this point in time, just as I would advise against preparing any displays for Canton. Jones has a lot to prove. I'm willing to give him the time to do that. Clearly, you're not.
It seems to me that you've already "closed the book" on Jones, so to speak. That's your prerogative. So, wear your Mark of the Needlessly Dramatic with pride. You might even get the extra-special Whining ribbon to go with it.
The bat signal was already sent out when a thread with "Jones" was posted and you once again jumped into action to be one of the early ones to comment. The irony....
By the way - I wonder when positive reports about Jones surface if you'll enlighten the board with the details or will you just talk about those pieces as being fluff or fodder to boost his confidence?
Yup, that's how I feel. I realize why people want to argue over this but there just isn't anything interesting to say about it anymore. No amount of posting can change what Jones did or determine what he will do. There isn't a single thing anyone can post about him that hasn't already been opined before either.
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
It’s always the same with you too. Any discussion of Jones leads to a negative comment by you criticizing Jones. We are a week into camp with limited access to practice. We are forced to listen to the NY media which loves to create drama rather than report facts.
The defense appears to be ahead at the moment which shouldn’t be a surprise as the Giants might have the best secondary in the NFL. The Giants also have several new weapons that are getting comfortable in a new offense.
Maybe wait until the real games begin?
those two years of games aren't a good sample size for ya? jones stinks.
those two years of games aren't a good sample size for ya? jones stinks.
Much has changed since those first two years. The Giants have taken steps to improve their offensive line and give Jones better weapons than he's had in the past in this, his second year in Garrett's offense. So, no, those two years are not a good sample size.
I haven't seen any evidence of that yet but will be interesting to watch as the OL matures and grows.
IF he can keep his eyes downfield and scramble out of the pocket for positive gains in specific, guided situations, then I don't think we have much to worry about with Daniel.
He will be fine.
He will be fine.
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
Exactly. Because pointing out mitigating circumstances is, sadly, the Mark of the Homer.
Ignoring them to push a narrative is simply the Mark of the Enlightened.
Me? I'll just relax and see how things play out over time. I figure that's the Mark of the Patient.
Being "Patient" and having a "Wait and See" attitude are frowned upon in the land of bbi.
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In comment 15320552 bw in dc said:
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
Exactly. Because pointing out mitigating circumstances is, sadly, the Mark of the Homer.
Ignoring them to push a narrative is simply the Mark of the Enlightened.
Me? I'll just relax and see how things play out over time. I figure that's the Mark of the Patient.
Being "Patient" and having a "Wait and See" attitude are frowned upon in the land of bbi.
It isn't that they are frowned upon on BBI. The cost of the 5th year option is prohibitive especially on a QB that is not the long term answer. As the NFL forces the decision whether or not to exercise after Year 3, you no longer have the ability to take a "wait and see" approach. I get that where we drafted in 2021 was not conducive to selecting a QB of the future, but we have the ammunition in 2022. Everyone would love to see Jones turn the corner, but it is concerning that in his third preaseason and second in the same system he is still having accuracy issues.
I think that's the exact point people are poking at when they talk about patience or even having something tangible to evaluate.
It is his third camp, but in reality, little to nothing is known about this camp so far.
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In comment 15320674 Klaatu said:
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In comment 15320552 bw in dc said:
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
Exactly. Because pointing out mitigating circumstances is, sadly, the Mark of the Homer.
Ignoring them to push a narrative is simply the Mark of the Enlightened.
Me? I'll just relax and see how things play out over time. I figure that's the Mark of the Patient.
Being "Patient" and having a "Wait and See" attitude are frowned upon in the land of bbi.
It isn't that they are frowned upon on BBI. The cost of the 5th year option is prohibitive especially on a QB that is not the long term answer. As the NFL forces the decision whether or not to exercise after Year 3, you no longer have the ability to take a "wait and see" approach. I get that where we drafted in 2021 was not conducive to selecting a QB of the future, but we have the ammunition in 2022. Everyone would love to see Jones turn the corner, but it is concerning that in his third preaseason and second in the same system he is still having accuracy issues.
Accuracy issues? That is not his problem. It is turnovers, pocket awareness and possibly coverage recognition.
Thank God you guts aren't scrutinized in your jobs like these guys are... By your norms you'd all be unemployed
Also, are you trying to make the case that because the Giants have to make a decision about his 5th year in his 4th year, that we cannot be patient before his 3rd year even starts?
Chill out...~
Also, are you trying to make the case that because the Giants have to make a decision about his 5th year in his 4th year, that we cannot be patient before his 3rd year even starts?
Chill out...~
The decision needs to be made after this year, but if he is not the solution the sooner we get a replacement reps with the first team offense the sooner they will be ready to go when called upon to start.
Haha, did you think the peanut gallery was going to let you get away with typing that?
As you can see, the pile-on has already begun...
That's a joke right? "Concerning?" Because he overthrew a few players in drills at the beginning of training camp? Seriously?
I guess there's really no reason at all for training camp or a pre-season. Why bother having players shake some rust off and get in sync with each other? They should just start the season immediately, right? I mean what happens during an 11 on 11 drill is obviously exactly what will happen during the season, so why bother?
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...?
Also, are you trying to make the case that because the Giants have to make a decision about his 5th year in his 4th year, that we cannot be patient before his 3rd year even starts?
Chill out...~
The decision needs to be made after this year, but if he is not the solution the sooner we get a replacement reps with the first team offense the sooner they will be ready to go when called upon to start.
Be patient and allow JJ to develop his players.
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In comment 15320674 Klaatu said:
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In comment 15320552 bw in dc said:
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for DJ.
DBs have the early advantage, too many red-zone packages, climate change, new receivers, still developing OL, SB isn't ready yet, etc.
Exactly. Because pointing out mitigating circumstances is, sadly, the Mark of the Homer.
Ignoring them to push a narrative is simply the Mark of the Enlightened.
Me? I'll just relax and see how things play out over time. I figure that's the Mark of the Patient.
Being "Patient" and having a "Wait and See" attitude are frowned upon in the land of bbi.
It isn't that they are frowned upon on BBI. The cost of the 5th year option is prohibitive especially on a QB that is not the long term answer. As the NFL forces the decision whether or not to exercise after Year 3, you no longer have the ability to take a "wait and see" approach. I get that where we drafted in 2021 was not conducive to selecting a QB of the future, but we have the ammunition in 2022. Everyone would love to see Jones turn the corner, but it is concerning that in his third preaseason and second in the same system he is still having accuracy issues.
But, I don't find it concerning that he may be struggling in camp. That is the problem; your wait and see and my wait and see are different. You telling others that wait see time is over is the problem.
End Result: The Steelers won the Super Bowl and while Ben had a terrible Super Bowl, he was instrumental in them getting there and played well on that run.
LOL. Very true. There was a thread started about how great Dak looks and the reaction was that were screwed this season having to face him again.
His issues are pocket awareness and fumbles.
His issues are pocket awareness and fumbles.
It comes from not understanding context, either from the beat reports or making judgements based on tweets.
The first few practices were almost exclusively for red zone plays and a heavy focus on corner fades. Those will have a much lower chance to succeed than other routes. Even more so if the defense knows it is coming.
But this time of year, people take any news and reports and run with it.
✔
@ZackBlatt
Kadarius Toney’s first target of camp is a drop. Progress that he’s participating at least. #Giants
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Zack Rosenblatt
✔
@ZackBlatt
Kadarius Toney’s first target of camp is a drop. Progress that he’s participating at least. #Giants
Can’t believe they actually report this shit.
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"accuracy issues" comments. That's one thing that Jones actually doesn't have an issue with. He's been solidly accurate thus far in his career, especially the 20 yards and under. 61.9 and 62.5 years 1 and 2.
His issues are pocket awareness and fumbles.
It comes from not understanding context, either from the beat reports or making judgements based on tweets.
The first few practices were almost exclusively for red zone plays and a heavy focus on corner fades. Those will have a much lower chance to succeed than other routes. Even more so if the defense knows it is coming.
But this time of year, people take any news and reports and run with it.
I find the frustrating part is when a fan introduces a reasonable explanation it gets treated as an excuse.
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Zack Rosenblatt
✔
@ZackBlatt
Kadarius Toney’s first target of camp is a drop. Progress that he’s participating at least. #Giants
Same guy reported Benjamin's account of us giving him a tryout as a hoax.
This isn't paparazzi level bad by any means but I can't imaging doing this for a living. Talk about useless.
And then that same poster will turn around and call those pointing out a shaky OL, a lack of WR separation, no camp last season and a new offense (to go along with a TE who was part of more than half the INT's thrown) excuse makers for Jones. And then say "show me".
Why, so you can shit on him when he does - like the way a poster did to Jones rookie season saying he's only played 5 decent games in his career?
And then that same poster will turn around and call those pointing out a shaky OL, a lack of WR separation, no camp last season and a new offense (to go along with a TE who was part of more than half the INT's thrown) excuse makers for Jones. And then say "show me".
Why, so you can shit on him when he does - like the way a poster did to Jones rookie season saying he's only played 5 decent games in his career?
And then that same poster will turn around and call those pointing out a shaky OL, a lack of WR separation, no camp last season and a new offense (to go along with a TE who was part of more than half the INT's thrown) excuse makers for Jones. And then say "show me".
Why, so you can shit on him when he does - like the way a poster did to Jones rookie season saying he's only played 5 decent games in his career?
Jesus you're a whiney cunt.
BANG!
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for me the most frustrating part is that they are only called "excuses" based on the POV people hold. And it is inconsistent. "Show me" is the mantra, but then when a guy like Barkley goes out and has 2,000 yards and 15TD's, some poster will go to great lengths to dissect the numbers to say it really wasn't impressive at all.
And then that same poster will turn around and call those pointing out a shaky OL, a lack of WR separation, no camp last season and a new offense (to go along with a TE who was part of more than half the INT's thrown) excuse makers for Jones. And then say "show me".
Why, so you can shit on him when he does - like the way a poster did to Jones rookie season saying he's only played 5 decent games in his career?
Jesus you're a whiney cunt.
Says the level-headed realist??
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In comment 15320814 ryanmkeane said:
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"accuracy issues" comments. That's one thing that Jones actually doesn't have an issue with. He's been solidly accurate thus far in his career, especially the 20 yards and under. 61.9 and 62.5 years 1 and 2.
His issues are pocket awareness and fumbles.
It comes from not understanding context, either from the beat reports or making judgements based on tweets.
The first few practices were almost exclusively for red zone plays and a heavy focus on corner fades. Those will have a much lower chance to succeed than other routes. Even more so if the defense knows it is coming.
But this time of year, people take any news and reports and run with it.
I find the frustrating part is when a fan introduces a reasonable explanation it gets treated as an excuse.
I think two separate but related ideas have been conflated under the word "excuse"
Now it's often read as "excuses for poor play", but it was originally more "excuses why DJ can't be evaluated"
And one side believed he could be evaluated despite the mitigating circumstances (system, WR, OL, etc) around his poor play, and the other did not.
The Jets had the same issue with Darnold. Could they evaluate him independently of all the negatives about the rest of the team. We got that answer
LiPpy and CiPpy will hurt you.
Just sayin
I only care about the real games.
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In comment 15320818 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15320814 ryanmkeane said:
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"accuracy issues" comments. That's one thing that Jones actually doesn't have an issue with. He's been solidly accurate thus far in his career, especially the 20 yards and under. 61.9 and 62.5 years 1 and 2.
His issues are pocket awareness and fumbles.
It comes from not understanding context, either from the beat reports or making judgements based on tweets.
The first few practices were almost exclusively for red zone plays and a heavy focus on corner fades. Those will have a much lower chance to succeed than other routes. Even more so if the defense knows it is coming.
But this time of year, people take any news and reports and run with it.
I find the frustrating part is when a fan introduces a reasonable explanation it gets treated as an excuse.
I think two separate but related ideas have been conflated under the word "excuse"
Now it's often read as "excuses for poor play", but it was originally more "excuses why DJ can't be evaluated"
And one side believed he could be evaluated despite the mitigating circumstances (system, WR, OL, etc) around his poor play, and the other did not.
The Jets had the same issue with Darnold. Could they evaluate him independently of all the negatives about the rest of the team. We got that answer
I understand your POV. My issue is insistince one way is correct. If a poster states they believe Jones could reasonably be evaluated with the cloud of surrounding circumstances, then fine, I don't see it that way. The problem is when each decides that it is obvious their pov is the only correct one. That attitude is easily spelled out in the way they communicate their pov.
As for Darnold; each situation is different, the answer to one situation is not necessarily the answer to another one.
Let us look at camp practice. The beats use their eyes and report what they see, well what they see is not necessarily what the coaches see. The same can be applied to games. Unfortunately, I think it is rare for a coach to honestly assess their players to the open world so it is difficult to know what they are looking for.
And then that same poster will turn around and call those pointing out a shaky OL, a lack of WR separation, no camp last season and a new offense (to go along with a TE who was part of more than half the INT's thrown) excuse makers for Jones. And then say "show me".
Why, so you can shit on him when he does - like the way a poster did to Jones rookie season saying he's only played 5 decent games in his career?
FMIC, certainly so. I also understand that at times us fans do go out of our way to look for reasons why a player or coach is not experiencing success. A problem as you stated is that reasons are only actual reasons when they fit my argument for a player that I believe in, otherwise for players that I don't believe in, tough luck. Players should be given considerations for circumstances regardless if f I believe in them or not.
By the way - I wonder when positive reports about Jones surface if you'll enlighten the board with the details or will you just talk about those pieces as being fluff or fodder to boost his confidence?
Sure. I can tell you exactly what I will say - 'Good to hear Jones living up to his expectations and doing what the 6th pick in the draft should be doing...'
So that's my issue when we talk about Jones. He's essentially experienced what Wentz did in 2020 but for the first 2 years of his career and he's never experienced a plus unit anywhere on offense except for a handful of games with Barkley on a bad ankle.
I only care about the real games.
It's been a steady diet of reports the last week or so.
I was actually rolling with it until the excuse makers showed last night to list all of the reasons why Jones was struggling.
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By the way - I wonder when positive reports about Jones surface if you'll enlighten the board with the details or will you just talk about those pieces as being fluff or fodder to boost his confidence?
Sure. I can tell you exactly what I will say - 'Good to hear Jones living up to his expectations and doing what the 6th pick in the draft should be doing...'
Well, Jones had a very good day today, so feel free to say it.
As usual he summarizes the entire situation in 4-5 sentences.
So that's my issue when we talk about Jones. He's essentially experienced what Wentz did in 2020 but for the first 2 years of his career and he's never experienced a plus unit anywhere on offense except for a handful of games with Barkley on a bad ankle.
I would say you and I are on the same page, which is not unusual from this side.
Very fair take. And early training camp reports are not getting us any closer to a conclusion on which of those things is most likely to occur.
Having said that, what the f*** else is there to talk about now? Nobody is making conclusions about Jones based on these reports, but why can’t people opine on the little information that is available? If we start reading in the next week that Kadarius Toney is uncoverable and making everyone else look like they are playing in a pool, would excitement about those reports be met with “pfft…means nothing?”
It’s ok to talk about camp reports on a fan message board. Nothing here is being entered into the official record of facts.
- "Stop bringing up 2018. It's over so forget it, especially since we all know there was a mandate with Eli."
- "The rebuilding didn't really start until Jones was inserted as the starting QB during the 2019 season."
- "Nothing related to the roster prior to Joe Judge becoming coach even matters."
Very likely the upcoming fan debate on Daniel Jones' next contract will fall into that same mindset if he has a decent 2021 season. It will be something like "Of course he should be extended, no question. His first two years do no matter...".
Sure. I can tell you exactly what I will say - 'Good to hear Jones living up to his expectations and doing what the 6th pick in the draft should be doing...'
Well, Jones had a very good day today, so feel free to say it.
Good to hear. DJ needs to start stringing these performances together to have positive momentum going into the season.
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Sure. I can tell you exactly what I will say - 'Good to hear Jones living up to his expectations and doing what the 6th pick in the draft should be doing...'
Well, Jones had a very good day today, so feel free to say it.
Good to hear. DJ needs to start stringing these performances together to have positive momentum going into the season.
I hope you didn't hurt yourself moving the goalposts.
I hope you didn't hurt yourself moving the goalposts.
Let me know where I can pick the "How to be a Giants Fan" by Klaatu so I can get more familiar with what your preferences, too.
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I hope you didn't hurt yourself moving the goalposts.
Let me know where I can pick the "How to be a Giants Fan" by Klaatu so I can get more familiar with what your preferences, too.
Well, you can begin by saying exactly what you'd said you'd say without any added qualifiers. It's a start.
So that's my issue when we talk about Jones. He's essentially experienced what Wentz did in 2020 but for the first 2 years of his career and he's never experienced a plus unit anywhere on offense except for a handful of games with Barkley on a bad ankle.
You can say that for Jones going back to Duke, where his career wasn't exceptional either. There's no shame in that - his team was probably overmatched in most games.
What you are missing is that the criticism isn't of Jones. The criticism is of the people that decided to build the team around him despite his never once showing that he is a top level player.
What Essex said above is accurate: Jones's trouble is with seeing and processing the game. That was a problem at Duke - so how is it not going to be a problem in the NFL?
He's an NFL backup-level talent that got overdrafted because he looks and feels like Eli Manning. That's not a criticism of Jones...it's a criticism of the front office that drafted him. It always has been.
On the positive end of things: Daniel Jones had his best practice. I didn’t chart any incompletions during team drills. #Giants
This entire thread: Oh well. Never mind.
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our biggest rival. For example, Carson Wentz. Injuries are the biggie, and that's something that's 100% on him just like it is 100% on Jones. But in terms of performance there's no doubt that their awful WR's corps, a decling Ertz, a non stop merry go round at RB and suspect line play are all big reasons why he's regressed. Those aren't excuses, they are absolutely positively reasons why he isn't a better QB.
So that's my issue when we talk about Jones. He's essentially experienced what Wentz did in 2020 but for the first 2 years of his career and he's never experienced a plus unit anywhere on offense except for a handful of games with Barkley on a bad ankle.
You can say that for Jones going back to Duke, where his career wasn't exceptional either. There's no shame in that - his team was probably overmatched in most games.
What you are missing is that the criticism isn't of Jones. The criticism is of the people that decided to build the team around him despite his never once showing that he is a top level player.
What Essex said above is accurate: Jones's trouble is with seeing and processing the game. That was a problem at Duke - so how is it not going to be a problem in the NFL?
He's an NFL backup-level talent that got overdrafted because he looks and feels like Eli Manning. That's not a criticism of Jones...it's a criticism of the front office that drafted him. It always has been.
I understand what the criticism is, but theres various levels to it of which Jones and his performance is one facet. Our coaching is another. Or GM's hits/misses are another. The supporting cast as a whole is another. You can keep going back to that draft if you wish, and analyze the shit out of why he was drafted, but it doesn't change that he's been the QB for 2 years and will be in 2021. It doesn't change who he played with his first 2 years either.
To answer your question regarding scanning the field - experience, coaching, and better players. The Giants have done everything they can this offseason to put the best possible situation around him, we will see how it turns out.
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@PLeonardNYDN
Daniel Jones is having a strong practice today. Just scrambled to his right as pass protection broke down and threw back upfield complete to Evan Engram cutting inside on the second level 🎯
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@art_stapleton
Best drill period of camp for Daniel Jones in red zone: three TD passes and a TD run.
He's an NFL backup-level talent that got overdrafted because he looks and feels like Eli Manning. That's not a criticism of Jones...it's a criticism of the front office that drafted him. It always has been.
How can anyone take this guy seriously after a comment like this?
Cheese and crackers!
If record is the only indicator - then there's another little pesky ding in the arguments of people who said Gettleman was a terrible hire and only was the beneficiary of a stacked team in Carolina.
But consistency really isn't a pillar here, is it?
I'm pinning my hopes on Judge and the other new guys rectifying this situation in 2022.
Do you really believe the shit you post?
By the way - you do realize that Mara has been in that position since 2005, right?
I'm pinning my hopes on Judge and the other new guys rectifying this situation in 2022.
Where do you come up with this shit?
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@art_stapleton
Best drill period of camp for Daniel Jones in red zone: three TD passes and a TD run.
Wow, Jones is going to be an All-Pro.
Great job by Judge completely turning him around in 2 practices.
Why don't you pick another name out of your fucking hat to compare Jones to?
FatMan in Charlotte : 1:13 pm : link : reply
Is "this front office" code for Gettleman, or does the Giants history only go back to 2018 like yours does?
If record is the only indicator - then there's another little pesky ding in the arguments of people who said Gettleman was a terrible hire and only was the beneficiary of a stacked team in Carolina.
But consistency really isn't a pillar here, is it?
Why don't you pick another name out of your fucking hat to compare Jones to?
I'd have gone with Mariota or Trubisky, but Jones isn't as good as either. Gabbert - not good enough to start but good enough to hang around as a backup for a decade - that's about right.
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Art Stapleton
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@art_stapleton
Best drill period of camp for Daniel Jones in red zone: three TD passes and a TD run.
Wow, Jones is going to be an All-Pro.
Great job by Judge completely turning him around in 2 practices.
It appears you are completely missing the point, and I certainly said nothing like your conclusion. The point is, a few tweets about Jones throwing some incompletions in camp began a "sky is falling" he needs to be replaced silliness. What I am saying is here is some positive news but it means very little and won't stop silly posts like yours.
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In comment 15321113 River Mike said:
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Art Stapleton
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@art_stapleton
Best drill period of camp for Daniel Jones in red zone: three TD passes and a TD run.
Wow, Jones is going to be an All-Pro.
Great job by Judge completely turning him around in 2 practices.
It appears you are completely missing the point, and I certainly said nothing like your conclusion. The point is, a few tweets about Jones throwing some incompletions in camp began a "sky is falling" he needs to be replaced silliness. What I am saying is here is some positive news but it means very little and won't stop silly posts like yours.
Nope, I actually get your point 100% (and the points of others on here). I was just being sarcastic, using this report to show the equivalent, stupid, kneejerk reaction in the other direction. I don't think it matters are all what happens in these practices, and even in the preseason games. They are practice.
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LOL..
FatMan in Charlotte : 1:13 pm : link : reply
Is "this front office" code for Gettleman, or does the Giants history only go back to 2018 like yours does?
If record is the only indicator - then there's another little pesky ding in the arguments of people who said Gettleman was a terrible hire and only was the beneficiary of a stacked team in Carolina.
But consistency really isn't a pillar here, is it?
That wasn't even directed at you Clownshoes.
typical troll job - trying to join the discussion
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In comment 15321173 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15321113 River Mike said:
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Art Stapleton
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@art_stapleton
Best drill period of camp for Daniel Jones in red zone: three TD passes and a TD run.
Wow, Jones is going to be an All-Pro.
Great job by Judge completely turning him around in 2 practices.
It appears you are completely missing the point, and I certainly said nothing like your conclusion. The point is, a few tweets about Jones throwing some incompletions in camp began a "sky is falling" he needs to be replaced silliness. What I am saying is here is some positive news but it means very little and won't stop silly posts like yours.
Nope, I actually get your point 100% (and the points of others on here). I was just being sarcastic, using this report to show the equivalent, stupid, kneejerk reaction in the other direction. I don't think it matters are all what happens in these practices, and even in the preseason games. They are practice.
My bad. I thought it didn't sound typical of you.
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LOL..
FatMan in Charlotte : 1:13 pm : link : reply
Is "this front office" code for Gettleman, or does the Giants history only go back to 2018 like yours does?
If record is the only indicator - then there's another little pesky ding in the arguments of people who said Gettleman was a terrible hire and only was the beneficiary of a stacked team in Carolina.
But consistency really isn't a pillar here, is it?
You have to understand that our Fat friend in Charlotte is good friends with Brandon Beane, the GM for the Bills. And Beane was the apprentice under Gettleman when he was the GM in Carolina. So Beane is very fond of DG.
Which means so is out Fat friend. And that is why he does the FatMan Shuffle when it comes to basically any criticism of DG...
And I guess Beane knows his shit since he picked Allen.....
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He's an NFL backup-level talent that got overdrafted because he looks and feels like Eli Manning. That's not a criticism of Jones...it's a criticism of the front office that drafted him. It always has been.
How can anyone take this guy seriously after a comment like this?
I don't take him seriously. I don't even waste my time reading his posts anymore and wouldn't have noticed that comment if you hadn't quoted it (I do value the opinions of Jay on the Island).
I don't need extra reasons for hoping DJ succeeds beyond the obvious (Giants success), but it will be a nice big fat fucking cherry on top to make the miserable master haters shut TF up and stop vomiting their negativity over every thread about Jones.
And I guess Beane knows his shit since he picked Allen.....
Indeed. Beane saw the great talent in Allen and traded up to draft him. So it seems he saw many of the limitations in DG's way of doing business and clearly paved his own way of doing business...
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In comment 15321037 Go Terps said:
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He's an NFL backup-level talent that got overdrafted because he looks and feels like Eli Manning. That's not a criticism of Jones...it's a criticism of the front office that drafted him. It always has been.
How can anyone take this guy seriously after a comment like this?
I don't take him seriously. I don't even waste my time reading his posts anymore and wouldn't have noticed that comment if you hadn't quoted it (I do value the opinions of Jay on the Island).
I don't need extra reasons for hoping DJ succeeds beyond the obvious (Giants success), but it will be a nice big fat fucking cherry on top to make the miserable master haters shut TF up and stop vomiting their negativity over every thread about Jones.
And I guess Beane knows his shit since he picked Allen.....
Beane has shown he can turnaround a franchise. He would be a better guy for you to defend.
Whoops, sorry. You have said you don't defend Gettleman...
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In comment 15321037 Go Terps said:
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He's an NFL backup-level talent that got overdrafted because he looks and feels like Eli Manning. That's not a criticism of Jones...it's a criticism of the front office that drafted him. It always has been.
How can anyone take this guy seriously after a comment like this?
I don't take him seriously. I don't even waste my time reading his posts anymore and wouldn't have noticed that comment if you hadn't quoted it (I do value the opinions of Jay on the Island).
I don't need extra reasons for hoping DJ succeeds beyond the obvious (Giants success), but it will be a nice big fat fucking cherry on top to make the miserable master haters shut TF up and stop vomiting their negativity over every thread about Jones.
Who's hating Jones? I certainly don't hate him. The situation is what it is. Playing quarterback in the NFL is really hard and very few people on earth can do it at a high level.
Jones isn't going to see another contract with the Giants. I am as confident saying that as I have ever been about anything I've ever said on this board. The question will be whether he gets 2022 as well.
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In comment 15321128 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 15321037 Go Terps said:
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He's an NFL backup-level talent that got overdrafted because he looks and feels like Eli Manning. That's not a criticism of Jones...it's a criticism of the front office that drafted him. It always has been.
How can anyone take this guy seriously after a comment like this?
I don't take him seriously. I don't even waste my time reading his posts anymore and wouldn't have noticed that comment if you hadn't quoted it (I do value the opinions of Jay on the Island).
I don't need extra reasons for hoping DJ succeeds beyond the obvious (Giants success), but it will be a nice big fat fucking cherry on top to make the miserable master haters shut TF up and stop vomiting their negativity over every thread about Jones.
Who's hating Jones? I certainly don't hate him. The situation is what it is. Playing quarterback in the NFL is really hard and very few people on earth can do it at a high level.
Jones isn't going to see another contract with the Giants. I am as confident saying that as I have ever been about anything I've ever said on this board. The question will be whether he gets 2022 as well.
Yep - that's why you are Go Panic -- king of the knee jerk assessments -- throwing out the baby with the bathwater before it even gets wet behind the ears
First, Nick Mullens is better than Jones and now, Blaine Gabbert is a good comp.
Can't wait for his evaluation of CJ Beathard and see if he's as confident in that as anything else!!
First, Nick Mullens is better than Jones and now, Blaine Gabbert is a good comp.
Can't wait for his evaluation of CJ Beathard and see if he's as confident in that as anything else!!
You mean the player with equal or better AY/A the last two years than Jones has ever had in his career? The one who had 6/0 TD/INT ratio last year on a SF team that had one WR healthy (Aiyuk)? :)
First, Nick Mullens is better than Jones and now, Blaine Gabbert is a good comp.
Can't wait for his evaluation of CJ Beathard and see if he's as confident in that as anything else!!
Well, when we played San Fran last September, Mullens had a much better game than Jones.
Now, I haven't adjusted Jones's stats for the excuse variable, but right now he was significantly out-played.
I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
Which doesn't make him right or wrong.
Without getting political, how many people were on record in 2015-2016 laughing at the idea of Donald Trump getting elected President? Quite a few, as I recall. There weren't very many who would state, categorically, that he did indeed have a shot.
I give GT credit for consistency, and I can't fault him for the unshakable courage of his convictions, however, I do think his judgement is premature, and what isn't terribly courageous is looking at Jones' first two years in the league and concluding that he's a career backup at best, especially when you look at those two years in a vacuum, and dismiss or ignore any factor, any mitigating circumstance that might call your narrative into question.
GT also has a foolish tendency towards projection. He doesn't like Jones, and wants to be rid of him, therefore Joe Judge mustn't like him, either, and can't wait to get rid of him, too. It's not only foolish, in my opinion, with no real foundation behind it, but it's become tiresome, too, as GT has said it repeatedly, and in a variety of ways.
You know, there have been several times in the past when I've agreed with GT. In fact, some years ago in an email to Eric I said something like I can't believe GT and I are on the same page. What's this world coming to? At this point, though, and on the topic of Jones I find him to be extremely irritating, so much so that a few weeks ago I called him "a dick." There will be no retraction or apology for that.
I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
I can’t remember the last time I looked at any player and adamantly said they were going to definitively be good or bad - maybe Luck?
I also maintain the viewpoint that it’s really easy to expect a player to suck as to not get your hopes up (see Engram thread) because if you are wrong it doesn’t sting and if you are right you were ready for it (and can boast about being right). There’s an actual psychology around this line of thinking - expecting the worst and hoping for the best is real and manifests itself on many forms.
But I am willing to suggest that comparisons of Jones to the likes of Blaine Gabbert and other San Fran backup QBs is someone just looking for an argument. And I guess it's not a surprise who brought that up either.
I understand that worry but IMO that would just showcase his inability to be healthy and the fate would be the same as if he had a bad year. I can't imagine Judge signing up for a 4th year on a QB that can't stay on the field, or plays hurt a lot limiting what he does well.
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Jones going down in week 2 or 3 after some meh game play and not being truly healthy for the rest of the season. The entire franchise will be in suspense for another year. From my perspective, that is the nightmare scenario.
I understand that worry but IMO that would just showcase his inability to be healthy and the fate would be the same as if he had a bad year. I can't imagine Judge signing up for a 4th year on a QB that can't stay on the field, or plays hurt a lot limiting what he does well.
Otoh, Simms’ injuries essentially made him a less than reliable player, from 1979-83, so there’s that. Of course, there was no social media or incessant calls for his head as frustrating as it was. Patience is virtually non-existent today..
Kyler Murray, Devin White, D.K. Metcalf, Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Dashuan Watson, TJ Watt, CMC, Budda Baker. I’m sure I’ve missed some.
I’m honestly just surprised fewer people don’t have a conviction about Jones. I respect that Terps stands by his conviction. He certainly did with Eli Manning.
My view, I think Jones has similar upside to Joe Flacco. A few plus traits, a few limits, but will stick around in the NFL if healthy. And if you pair him with a dominant defense or run game, can make noise in the playoffs.
Kyler Murray, Devin White, D.K. Metcalf, Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Dashuan Watson, TJ Watt, CMC, Budda Baker. I’m sure I’ve missed some.
I’m honestly just surprised fewer people don’t have a conviction about Jones. I respect that Terps stands by his conviction. He certainly did with Eli Manning.
My view, I think Jones has similar upside to Joe Flacco. A few plus traits, a few limits, but will stick around in the NFL if healthy. And if you pair him with a dominant defense or run game, can make noise in the playoffs.
Flacco won a SB, largely because he performed well in clutch spots. He might have made another SB had he not suffered an easy dropped TD pass and missed extra point, allowing Brady, once again to ultimately advance to a SB..
I think injuries, post SB win proved to be his undoing and he was never the same
That's really the only difference I see. If I really wanted to I can pick apart any player and become obsessive about it but I personally don't see the point in that because it has no effect on the outcome. When I was in my teens and early 20's I was definitely more critical, but now? Ehh, it just isn't enjoyable to treat sports that way for me anymore.
Yeah. Many here feel 25 games played by a QB is far from definitive, pro or con and are waiting to see how he does with a (hopefully) healthy year 3, pro or con..Seeing “signs” which may or may not make for good discussion, is also hardly definitive, pro or con, imv
What were people saying about Mayfield going into last season? Now he's looked at completely differently. Same as Josh Allen. Meanwhile, a guy like Kyler Murray gets a lot of praise and still has significant questions on his future.
Sy summed it up perfectly when he said the foolish people are the ones thinking the book has been written on Jones or that anyone knows what he is right now.
And just because that doesn't follow the path of other players doesn't make it wrong - just different
That's really the only difference I see. If I really wanted to I can pick apart any player and become obsessive about it but I personally don't see the point in that because it has no effect on the outcome. When I was in my teens and early 20's I was definitely more critical, but now? Ehh, it just isn't enjoyable to treat sports that way for me anymore.
How much more conviction do you need than that?
I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
Reasonable people don’t pretend to have so much knowledge or a crystal ball. Reasonable people acknowledge that Jones has shown some flashes (set some records as a rookie) and had a long list of shit going against him in his 2nd year. Reasonable people know that whether he's our franchise QB for the next 10 years is still TBD.
The idea that a coach like Joe Judge is willing to fail this year and wait until next yr to address the QB position, makes no sense to me. He's turning over the bottom 5 of the roster like i don’t know if I've seen before, but we're supposed to believe he went through this past offseason and draft just waiting for NEXT year to think about QB? Right.
The more reasonable explanation is that Judge really believes in Jones (like he says he does), he saw the flashes, understands all the shit Jones had going against him and thinks with more weapons, more experience/coaching and improved OL, Jones could be the guy. We will see.
Thanks Brown Hornet. I appreciate your posts too.
Kyler Murray, Devin White, D.K. Metcalf, Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Dashuan Watson, TJ Watt, CMC, Budda Baker. I’m sure I’ve missed some.
I’m honestly just surprised fewer people don’t have a conviction about Jones. I respect that Terps stands by his conviction. He certainly did with Eli Manning.
There is a difference between thinking Jones is going to continue to struggle and rooting for Jones to struggle to be “right”.
IMV, Terps is merely predicting that Jones, based on his body of work to date and some of his shortcomings, will not improve much anymore and we will be left looking for another solution. And he tries to support that through various objective and subjective methods. But he’s not rooting for Jones to fail. I’ve never sensed that.
But the sharks are definitely circling early to rip Terps because they can’t make that differentiation. Which is more of a reflection of their daftness than Terps’s desire to be right.
He’s written many, many times he hopes Jones succeeds and he has to eat crow. Alas, the daft struggle with their comprehension skills…
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One thing that’s strange — I see Terps go on record and predict Jones, based on his play do far — projects to be a backup.
I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
Reasonable people don’t pretend to have so much knowledge or a crystal ball. Reasonable people acknowledge that Jones has shown some flashes (set some records as a rookie) and had a long list of shit going against him in his 2nd year. Reasonable people know that whether he's our franchise QB for the next 10 years is still TBD.
The idea that a coach like Joe Judge is willing to fail this year and wait until next yr to address the QB position, makes no sense to me. He's turning over the bottom 5 of the roster like i don’t know if I've seen before, but we're supposed to believe he went through this past offseason and draft just waiting for NEXT year to think about QB? Right.
The more reasonable explanation is that Judge really believes in Jones (like he says he does), he saw the flashes, understands all the shit Jones had going against him and thinks with more weapons, more experience/coaching and improved OL, Jones could be the guy. We will see.
I also think it's reasonable that Judge believes in Jones. However, unlike what you were intimating above that he is not willing to fail, I think he is.
It is perfectly reasonable to believe that Judge has enough confidence in Jones to keeping going with him in Year 3, but no so much confidence that if he fails his leash will be pulled in very tight to try and salvage this season. And then Judge will start looking ahead to opportunities in free agency or with a bountiful amount of draft picks next year to possibly "reset" at QB.
Otoh, Simms’ injuries essentially made him a less than reliable player, from 1979-83, so there’s that. Of course, there was no social media or incessant calls for his head as frustrating as it was. Patience is virtually non-existent today..
When the GM who chose Jones tells everyone in the world that he fell in "full bloom love" with him based on watching him for three series at the Senior Bowl and "couldn't risk" waiting to draft him at #17, why would anyone expect fans to be patient?
This also isn't 1983, and you can't hold onto a player's rights forever - the decision on Jones' 5th year option (or extension) comes in 9 months. That's not impatience, that's a financial reality.
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our biggest rival. For example, Carson Wentz. Injuries are the biggie, and that's something that's 100% on him just like it is 100% on Jones. But in terms of performance there's no doubt that their awful WR's corps, a decling Ertz, a non stop merry go round at RB and suspect line play are all big reasons why he's regressed. Those aren't excuses, they are absolutely positively reasons why he isn't a better QB.
So that's my issue when we talk about Jones. He's essentially experienced what Wentz did in 2020 but for the first 2 years of his career and he's never experienced a plus unit anywhere on offense except for a handful of games with Barkley on a bad ankle.
You can say that for Jones going back to Duke, where his career wasn't exceptional either. There's no shame in that - his team was probably overmatched in most games.
What you are missing is that the criticism isn't of Jones. The criticism is of the people that decided to build the team around him despite his never once showing that he is a top level player.
What Essex said above is accurate: Jones's trouble is with seeing and processing the game. That was a problem at Duke - so how is it not going to be a problem in the NFL?
He's an NFL backup-level talent that got overdrafted because he looks and feels like Eli Manning. That's not a criticism of Jones...it's a criticism of the front office that drafted him. It always has been.
Bullshit. Backup talents under 25 year of age don't run faster than most QBs and possess good size and arm strength. They MIGHT be backups one day, but that guy isn't a backup this early in his career. Once again you are making shit up.
A team liked Jones enough to draft him at 6. Reports say other teams liked him in round 1. We KNOW one did. That means he had enough talent to be drafted early. And he CLEARLY possesses NFL talent. Anyone can see that, except you.
I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
I'm not sure about that. There are posters who think the third year "pop" is likely going to happen for Jones - like they think it did for Allen and Mayfield - and that is based on the flashes Jones has shown and this new infantry DG has brought in...
Most great NFL QBS were insanely productive in college. This is a fact. But damn those little details, where the devil lies. Most insanely productive college QBs did so in a small school, playing in a small conference, OR playing for a big school surrounded by a lot of collegiate talent. Jones was the rare talent that played for a small (football wise, Duke) school but in a relatively tough conference, and we had NO talent around him. He posted (approx) a 17-19 overall record and owns just about every record there is at Duke. He had a winning record in 17 and 18. At Duke. With nothing around him.
Duke has had FIVE winning records since 2002. Jones was the starter in two of those.
He wasn't exactly bad in college. Devil is in the details.
Also, there have been instances where "poor" statistical QBs from college turned into dominant pro QBs. So there's that.
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After their first two years in the NFL, I can think of several players recently I was pretty certain would be quality career starters.
Kyler Murray, Devin White, D.K. Metcalf, Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Dashuan Watson, TJ Watt, CMC, Budda Baker. I’m sure I’ve missed some.
I’m honestly just surprised fewer people don’t have a conviction about Jones. I respect that Terps stands by his conviction. He certainly did with Eli Manning.
There is a difference between thinking Jones is going to continue to struggle and rooting for Jones to struggle to be “right”.
IMV, Terps is merely predicting that Jones, based on his body of work to date and some of his shortcomings, will not improve much anymore and we will be left looking for another solution. And he tries to support that through various objective and subjective methods. But he’s not rooting for Jones to fail. I’ve never sensed that.
But the sharks are definitely circling early to rip Terps because they can’t make that differentiation. Which is more of a reflection of their daftness than Terps’s desire to be right.
He’s written many, many times he hopes Jones succeeds and he has to eat crow. Alas, the daft struggle with their comprehension skills…
What's he's rooting for is Gettleman to fail and be fired, and John Mara to give up the team. He spends his time hammering this relentlessly, posting his proofs and analysis, and anything, objective or not, that supports his contention that everything that Gettleman and Mara has done is wrong, was done with poor judgment and is going to fail. This is what he is rooting for, Jones is part of that analysis, and it's hardly objective, except he seems to like Joe Judge for some reason, which is an unexplainable contradiction in his analysis.
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Otoh, Simms’ injuries essentially made him a less than reliable player, from 1979-83, so there’s that. Of course, there was no social media or incessant calls for his head as frustrating as it was. Patience is virtually non-existent today..
When the GM who chose Jones tells everyone in the world that he fell in "full bloom love" with him based on watching him for three series at the Senior Bowl and "couldn't risk" waiting to draft him at #17, why would anyone expect fans to be patient?
This also isn't 1983, and you can't hold onto a player's rights forever - the decision on Jones' 5th year option (or extension) comes in 9 months. That's not impatience, that's a financial reality.
Because he didn’t say/imply that DJ would excel coming out of the gate. As with many (most?) heralded QBs coming out of college, it could take several years (2-3) for potential (or bust) to be realized. Not everyone starts out like Dan Marino.
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In comment 15321929 christian said:
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After their first two years in the NFL, I can think of several players recently I was pretty certain would be quality career starters.
Kyler Murray, Devin White, D.K. Metcalf, Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Dashuan Watson, TJ Watt, CMC, Budda Baker. I’m sure I’ve missed some.
I’m honestly just surprised fewer people don’t have a conviction about Jones. I respect that Terps stands by his conviction. He certainly did with Eli Manning.
There is a difference between thinking Jones is going to continue to struggle and rooting for Jones to struggle to be “right”.
IMV, Terps is merely predicting that Jones, based on his body of work to date and some of his shortcomings, will not improve much anymore and we will be left looking for another solution. And he tries to support that through various objective and subjective methods. But he’s not rooting for Jones to fail. I’ve never sensed that.
But the sharks are definitely circling early to rip Terps because they can’t make that differentiation. Which is more of a reflection of their daftness than Terps’s desire to be right.
He’s written many, many times he hopes Jones succeeds and he has to eat crow. Alas, the daft struggle with their comprehension skills…
What's he's rooting for is Gettleman to fail and be fired, and John Mara to give up the team. He spends his time hammering this relentlessly, posting his proofs and analysis, and anything, objective or not, that supports his contention that everything that Gettleman and Mara has done is wrong, was done with poor judgment and is going to fail. This is what he is rooting for, Jones is part of that analysis, and it's hardly objective, except he seems to like Joe Judge for some reason, which is an unexplainable contradiction in his analysis.
and maybe everything is the wrong word -- it's the vast majority of what they have done
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I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
I'm not sure about that. There are posters who think the third year "pop" is likely going to happen for Jones - like they think it did for Allen and Mayfield - and that is based on the flashes Jones has shown and this new infantry DG has brought in...
I may be a broken record on this, but I really think the biggest factor to what we see out of Jones will be the OL. That doesn't absolve him of any accountability. It is more about the OL needing to improve. Do they need to be world beaters? Nope. But, if they continue to be one of the bottom 5 or 6 OLs in the league, Jones and anybody else we put under center stands to struggle more than not.
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In comment 15321837 christian said:
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I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
I'm not sure about that. There are posters who think the third year "pop" is likely going to happen for Jones - like they think it did for Allen and Mayfield - and that is based on the flashes Jones has shown and this new infantry DG has brought in...
I see 2 problems with some blind optimism. One, is the assumption that Jones will just magically see a 3rd year jump, as if it is a given for every 3rd year player at every position. Two, is pointing to Allen's 3rd year as evidence it WILL happen for Jones. It MAY. But it, MAY NOT.
But that isn't a fair take of the majority of DJ supporters. Suggesting a third year for more improvement and development isn't magic...its a whole other year.
And while I cringe a bit when Josh Allen is brought up because the posters that do it are awful at using it effectively (or fairly) to make their case for DJ, he is indeed a recent young guy that showed a great deal of improvement. He is also not typically mentioned as an example that Jones WILL get better as an absolute...
I am bullish on DJ but I haven't seen blind optimism or anything more than fans rooting for their guy.
A team liked Jones enough to draft him at 6. Reports say other teams liked him in round 1. We KNOW one did. That means he had enough talent to be drafted early. And he CLEARLY possesses NFL talent. Anyone can see that, except you.
NFL GM's get paid to be CORRECT in their pre-draft analysis and decisions. The other teams rumored to be interested in Jones were:
1) Denver: Aside from having Peyton Manning fall in his lap, John Elway's record of QB evaluation is rather poor. Brock Osweiler. Trevor Siemian. Paxton Lynch. Drew Lock.
2) Washington: Everyone involved with the 2018 draft has been fired. The QB they ultimately selected has been disastrous.
That doesn't mean that Jones CAN'T develop as a QB, but the appeal to the authority of other NFL talent evaluators has no merit. Dave Gettleman didn't have to draft Daniel Jones, he loved him and he jumped at the chance. He will fairly be judged on how Jones performs, and time is short for Jones to deliver before serious financial decisions need to be made.
The reality is this:
- he was drafted #6 to be the franchise quarterback
- he has an 8-18 record as a starter
- he was the 20th rated passer in the league in 2019, 30th in 2020
- the Giants have to decide on his fifth year option after this season
- the Giants have two first round picks in the 2022 draft
You can whine about impatience and Simms and Eli all you want, but the reality of the situation is he has to produce this year behind a paper thin OL and with an offensive coordinator whose offense doesn't seem to line up with his strengths.
If we were watching this situation play out on a division rival we'd laugh about their prospects and their methods. But because fans like BB56, Brown Hornet, UConn, etc. don't want to separate rooting interest from reality these threads devolve into bullshit posts about bat signals and popcorn.
Duly noted
As for our rivals, 2 of the 3 have big questions at QB and I hope it continues. That’s it. I’m not laughing at them and threads about our rivals in general are few and far between. I hope they stink, simple as that. If Daniel Jones was a Redskin I’d hope that he’d never be good and that would be the end of it.
Your take was that Washington was actually in a better place than us because they recognized Haskins wasn't the QB and they moved away from him to reset the position. And what did they do then? They signed a nearly 40 year old QB who has never played in the postseason.
Laughter? Not from you.
Your take was that Washington was actually in a better place than us because they recognized Haskins wasn't the QB and they moved away from him to reset the position. And what did they do then? They signed a nearly 40 year old QB who has never played in the postseason.
I think the signing of Fitztragic will come back and bite WFT if he's the main starter the entire year.
But that's a separate decision - and an obvious stop-gap move - than the absolute correct decision to cut their losses on Haskins. Who was a complete disaster.
Well put. And pithy at that so you get extra points...
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If we were watching this situation play out on a division rival we'd laugh about their prospects and their methods
Your take was that Washington was actually in a better place than us because they recognized Haskins wasn't the QB and they moved away from him to reset the position. And what did they do then? They signed a nearly 40 year old QB who has never played in the postseason.
Laughter? Not from you.
Why would I laugh? They realized their mistake and moved on before we did. We're still in our mistake.
They spent $10M and no draft picks and got a better player in Fitzpatrick than we have in Jones.
Latest odds to win NFC East:
WFT +230
NYG +450
Why would I be laughing at them? They have a better team and a better quarterback for a fraction of the cost of ours.
I can honestly say I haven't heard or seen one blindly optimistic take on Jones since last season ended. Where are all these insane posts? I know where the negative ones are. Where are all the ones screaming JONES IS AWESOME TRUST ME?"
Some of us want to see him play some more. Book isn't done yet. Some reputable NFL people feel the same way. Some NFL current and former scouts do as well.
Fitz upside is off the charts good. Maybe he will finally play well for 16 games, he's still young. And he's certainly well insulated in Washington.
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clearly some posting about DJ with blind optimism in mind...
I can honestly say I haven't heard or seen one blindly optimistic take on Jones since last season ended. Where are all these insane posts?
Not one? Not a single solitary post for 7 months?
Well I will let you do some homework but you may want to start with the guys that make the blanket statement "Jones will be fine"...
I know, 6th overall and all that shite. He's still making more money than Jones.
It's ok to wait it out another year before you stand on the mtn top of being right and scream how much Jones sucks. It's still early. Just saying.
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In comment 15322223 Jimmy Googs said:
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clearly some posting about DJ with blind optimism in mind...
I can honestly say I haven't heard or seen one blindly optimistic take on Jones since last season ended. Where are all these insane posts?
Not one? Not a single solitary post for 7 months?
Well I will let you do some homework but you may want to start with the guys that make the blanket statement "Jones will be fine"...
If I have seen one, it's outnumbered by some of this daily trash by a count of 100-1.
Just fucking watch the season and shut it for five seconds.
They were fools to draft Haskins. I said at the time I wouldn't draft him in the seventh round.
I'm not congratulating them for blowing a draft pick. I am saying they did the right thing in acknowledging they fucked up and moved on. That process started after his rookie season - Rivera came in and brought Kyle Allen with him. He didn't wait long for Haskins to prove he wasn't the guy, and when he didn't he was quick to make the switch to the guy he was familiar with.
WFT, like Arizona with Rosen, showed it isn't as disastrous to miss on a first round quarterback as it used to be pre-2011 CBA. Missing on a first round quarterback used to be double jeopardy - you'd lose the pick and take a colossal cap loss. That's not the case anymore with the rookie wage scale.
WFT moved on and improved at quarterback in the short term. What if we'd done the same? What if we'd traded Jones and signed Fitzpatrick? We'd be in a better spot - we'd have a better QB now and more draft assets in 2022...not to mention that Fitzpatrick would be a great fit for Garrett.
We've got to stop thinking about Jones as a long term franchise quarterback, and we should be open to improving upon him as soon as the opportunity arrives. The defense and coaching staff are good enough that the team could be in the playoffs with representative quarterback play.
Someone says Jones could get better because the team got better and he's in the same system for 2 years and people dial it back to 2019-2020 or even college and say NOPE, he sucked then, he's gonna suck now. I just think that's an odd way to think. I also think some here cannot forget things that probably should be forgotten, or at least not hyper focused on. Some of you have odd memory placement. You remember shit that suits your agenda but either forget or ignore the shit that doesn't.
It's year 3. You will have your pound of flesh soon enough if Jones falters. If he is merely solid I am sure that won't be good enough and we will be bitching and moaning some more.
This isn't about your level of toleration. You can control that very aspect of your life through your own activities on BBI.
I said there are indeed some posting of blind optimism and gave you a valid example where they come from...
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its that he was an insubordinate who wasn't good enough to deal with. Many players like that are cut early because they are uncoachable. I wouldn't congratulate them on a fairly obvious move.
They were fools to draft Haskins. I said at the time I wouldn't draft him in the seventh round.
I'm not congratulating them for blowing a draft pick. I am saying they did the right thing in acknowledging they fucked up and moved on. That process started after his rookie season - Rivera came in and brought Kyle Allen with him. He didn't wait long for Haskins to prove he wasn't the guy, and when he didn't he was quick to make the switch to the guy he was familiar with.
WFT, like Arizona with Rosen, showed it isn't as disastrous to miss on a first round quarterback as it used to be pre-2011 CBA. Missing on a first round quarterback used to be double jeopardy - you'd lose the pick and take a colossal cap loss. That's not the case anymore with the rookie wage scale.
WFT moved on and improved at quarterback in the short term. What if we'd done the same? What if we'd traded Jones and signed Fitzpatrick? We'd be in a better spot - we'd have a better QB now and more draft assets in 2022...not to mention that Fitzpatrick would be a great fit for Garrett.
We've got to stop thinking about Jones as a long term franchise quarterback, and we should be open to improving upon him as soon as the opportunity arrives. The defense and coaching staff are good enough that the team could be in the playoffs with representative quarterback play.
I'm very much open to it. I posted a ton this past offseason that I'd be open to an upgrade if the Giants felt like spending the picks to move up was worth it. They instead decided to trade down. Lance was probably the only guy i'd consider it for (knowing who'd be gone at 1 and 2) but he went 3 so it really wasn't an option. So that leaves Fields and Mac Jones - Jones was always a hard no so it was essentially just Fields. They had every ability to take him and didn't. I'm ok with that because the capital we got could be enormous if Chicago sucks.
If Jones isn't good this year i'd happily move on then too. I'm not tied to him, I don't know him, I simply root for him to hopefully do well. So that's where I'm at, hoping he kicks ass, and if he doesn't, ready to move on.
Haskins showed nothing. Jones showed growth, toughness and leadership. He also played better over his final 8 games in 2020.
You're comparing apples to oranges.
That's where I've been this whole time, but I am deeply critical of the process that put us in this position to begin with. I think we're on the verge of throwing this season away and possibly putting Judge in a position where he's coaching for his job in 2022.
All because we didn't even try to get better at the game's most important position.
That's where I've been this whole time, but I am deeply critical of the process that put us in this position to begin with. I think we're on the verge of throwing this season away and possibly putting Judge in a position where he's coaching for his job in 2022.
All because we didn't even try to get better at the game's most important position.
Might as well just give up. All is lost.
Get over it dude. Time to accept it. We didn't just lose the draft rights to 1989 Joe Montana. Christ.
So “wasted season” can happen for many reasons, moving on from Jones this year doesn’t guarantee 2021 isn’t a waste.
Since we talk about the past all the time, why not mention that the answer would be Dave Brown, 1996. By 97 the Giants had gathered all their intel on Brown and had accepted things. They pretty much gave Brown 3-4 years. Probably 1-2 too many.
Since then, the Giants have been very patient with their QB. Collins in 99-2000 and then Eli. It worked. Now it's time for Jones. No benefit of the doubt I guess? Maybe they really truly believe in this guy? Maybe they are right?
It's one position, granted it is the most important one, but running a young cost controlled QB out there for one more go isn't a bad plan at all. Teams do it all the time. And most teams don't punt on the young QB after one fucking bad year with a shit load of mitigating factors.
We all want the same thing. I don't think it's weird to feel very optimistic right now. This team is in a nice spot. Young team with staying power. They need to win, but it's a sustainable model. Some of you make it sound so fucking dark. Live a little.
Since we talk about the past all the time, why not mention that the answer would be Dave Brown, 1996. By 97 the Giants had gathered all their intel on Brown and had accepted things. They pretty much gave Brown 3-4 years. Probably 1-2 too many.
Since then, the Giants have been very patient with their QB. Collins in 99-2000 and then Eli. It worked. Now it's time for Jones. No benefit of the doubt I guess? Maybe they really truly believe in this guy? Maybe they are right?
You bring up Kerry Collins, but what choice did the Giants really have at that point. Dave Brown failed. Neither Kent Graham nor Danny Kanell were good. Short of drafting Tom Brady in 2000, they weren't in a position to draft a young QB in '99 or 2000.
And then Collins delivered in his first full season.
Eli Manning's rookie contract was for six years and $54 million. He won the Super Bowl in year 4. Calls to "get rid of him" aside, they were locked in to him contractually in a way that will not be true of Daniel Jones come next May.
I guess it depends on the answer you're looking for, because Davis Webb and Kyle Lauletta are 3/4th round picks aren't even good enough to be backups in the NFL.
2004 was a long, long time ago.
He has had his share of mistakes...maybe a few more than some would like to see, but this kid has showed us all that he has the skills to not just win football games, but to do so in dramatic fashion.
No panic, no worries...just Daniel Jones coming into his own in 2021.
I'm really looking forward to seeing DJ8 get after it in September!
Being a good quarterback in the NFL requires a shitload of innate talent and ability that is already in place before you take all the other factors (coaching, OL, etc.) into account.
Jones lacks talent in a couple critical areas - pocket presence and field vision. That isn't going to just develop at the NFL level - that's like learning to drive in an F1 car. The success of failure of Jones with the Giants is going to depend on the coaches' ability to mitigate his shortcomings through scheme, and I think Garrett's scheme is completely wrong for Jones.
2004 was a long, long time ago.
See here's where we differ -- they were right to draft Jones -- so the last time they were right was the last time they drafted a QB
Haskins was a total disaster -- he had no work ethic, no discipline, and he couldn't lead his team. You can not say that about Jones. He is well respected by his team and this coaching staff. The fact that you know that he was a bad pick is total hooey -- it's your opinion and that's it
It's too soon to pull the rug out -- he has not been anything like Haskins in form or substance -- he's shown flashes of very good and flashes of rookie errors -- it's par for the course for a rookie QB --
Fitz is a journey man QB -- we've had them before -- kinda like hiring Kerry to go lose the Super Bowl -- hiring Fitz to lead your team is a chump move that wreaks of desperation and Washington will not benefit in the long run from it -- keeping Jones on staff and seeing what you have is much smarter from a management perspective and cost wise as well. The team believes in the kid and he's shown mad good team skills and teased at real talent. Makes much more sense to try to develop that talent and see what you got -- despite what you say -- it really is anyone's guess right now. Just because you have conviction does not make you right
Your off with his head evaluation is just way too smug and way too premature -that's why you are Go Panic!
It really is that simple. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but it certainly isn't "blind optimism".
Seems like the amount of ink devoted to debating the QB annoys some members. That seems odd, he’s the most important player on the team.
Then there is a litmus test, where positive opinions can be rehashed endlessly and erratically, but negative opinions are spam. You’ve got a poster resorting to putting fans in quotes when referring to posters he doesn’t like.
God bless him and I like him as a poster, but if Go Terps had the posting style of DJM I think some BBIers would explode.
When's the last time someone with an opposing view said "you know, that's a good point" or even "I agree with that part of what you said"? Not often enough. Too many people care about being right and the people that don't care about being right don't post much or don't really pick a side. And that's typically how it goes on Facebook, Instagram, etc on any and every topic.
That's the part that has me on the fence as a Jones doubter going forward. The Giants were a bad roster last year and the OL might have been the weakest position followed by WR so he was undermanned almost, if not every, week but there were several games the Giants had a chance to steal at the end and they didn't win even one of them.
The best game the Giants have played in years vs. Seattle he didn't even play in. That was the most organized and best performing game as an 11 man offense unit all year with a QB who couldn't throw the ball with any velocity and little accuracy.
I watched the interview with Jones after the fight and looks looks bigger/stronger and seemed more relaxed and confident with the media in his face. It would be great if that transferred over to the field.
As if this Vocal Minority single-handedly shuts down all conversation while some less-vocal majority owns the rights to all civil debate? Meanwhile, pile-ons occur every day on threads when someone questions or is critical of anything NY Giant.
And by the way, what is so damn special about being in the majority on an opinionated fanboard of a team that has struggled like hell the past decade...
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When was the last time the Giants were wrong about a young QB within their walls?
I guess it depends on the answer you're looking for, because Davis Webb and Kyle Lauletta are 3/4th round picks aren't even good enough to be backups in the NFL.
Right. And they were cut soon after being drafted.
The Giants haven't held on to a young QB for too long lately. Not that it matters really, but since we love to talk about how bad this team has been since 2013, it seems fair to bring that up.
OK then.
2004 was a long, long time ago.
So was 2012. Yet you conjure that date up all the time.
Keep trying to completely ignore and dispel NFL coaching and what they see in practice.
My point is, the Giants have been pretty quick to cut dead weight here, especially under DG and even Judge. They haven't awarded any scholarships. Players have had to earn their way. Jones was in fact "given" the starting job but in this day and age, where practice time is so precious, you pretty much have to give the young QB the reps or else that guy isn't going to get enough reps.
I don’t know man. For every critical Googs, BW, Terps post, I think there’s a DJM, FMiC, gidiefor post with the equal amount of razzing.
Over the last several years, there’s just been an overwhelming amount of bad outcomes for this team. It’s no wonder the general sentiment is more negative.
But I don’t think the more optimistic fans are any less snarky or more constructive. Take a read through this thread, there are some pretty good examples.
When's the last time someone with an opposing view said "you know, that's a good point" or even "I agree with that part of what you said"? Not often enough. Too many people care about being right and the people that don't care about being right don't post much or don't really pick a side. And that's typically how it goes on Facebook, Instagram, etc on any and every topic.
I barely post on these threads anymore, what's the point? And I'm pretty sure most know where I stand on Jones, it's just been rehashed a billion times. What the hell does the first week of a camp tell you about DJ? On a team with a stacked secondary? With lots of new receiving pieces? Fucking nothing.
I never understand the hype about camp, it's internal competition. It doesn't tell you much about the state of the team vs the rest of the NFL.
My point is, the Giants have been pretty quick to cut dead weight here, especially under DG and even Judge. They haven't awarded any scholarships. Players have had to earn their way. Jones was in fact "given" the starting job but in this day and age, where practice time is so precious, you pretty much have to give the young QB the reps or else that guy isn't going to get enough reps.
Djm, I generally agree with that part of what you said here...
We've seen numerous threads about Barkley's rehab or Jones bringing teammates together that are derailed so that Go Terps can post Jones stats from 2020. It's like any positive news has to be shouted down without there even being a reason to step in and do so.
And again - if people can point to threads started talking about how great things are, by all means, enlighten the board about how shitty the team has been. But when innocuous information about Jones working out with WR's becomes another way to rail on him being picked to be Eli 2.0 and you don't see a problem with that - there's not much to say.
Half of me thinks there's a goal to how many shitty backup QB's Go Terps is going to equate to Daniel Jones that you probably have a drinking game based around it.
We've seen numerous threads about Barkley's rehab or Jones bringing teammates together that are derailed so that Go Terps can post Jones stats from 2020. It's like any positive news has to be shouted down without there even being a reason to step in and do so.
And again - if people can point to threads started talking about how great things are, by all means, enlighten the board about how shitty the team has been. But when innocuous information about Jones working out with WR's becomes another way to rail on him being picked to be Eli 2.0 and you don't see a problem with that - there's not much to say.
Half of me thinks there's a goal to how many shitty backup QB's Go Terps is going to equate to Daniel Jones that you probably have a drinking game based around it.
Very few posters have said DEFINITIVELY, DJ will be fine. What I have said very simply, as many others have said, is that WE BELIEVE DJ will be fine, but that we have no real idea. Just a belief…As opposed to the DEFINITIVE, Jones is garbage and other adjectives, after just 25 games.
But, they hear want they want to hear even though most of us have put DISCLAIMERS out there.
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most positive posts are torn down and really aren't repeated all that much as a result. The dissenting opinions are almost always louder and more repetitive. Very seldom is knowledge being shared, and I'd question it even being a debate. It often turns into a lecture.
When's the last time someone with an opposing view said "you know, that's a good point" or even "I agree with that part of what you said"? Not often enough. Too many people care about being right and the people that don't care about being right don't post much or don't really pick a side. And that's typically how it goes on Facebook, Instagram, etc on any and every topic.
I barely post on these threads anymore, what's the point? And I'm pretty sure most know where I stand on Jones, it's just been rehashed a billion times. What the hell does the first week of a camp tell you about DJ? On a team with a stacked secondary? With lots of new receiving pieces? Fucking nothing.
I never understand the hype about camp, it's internal competition. It doesn't tell you much about the state of the team vs the rest of the NFL.
Same, the redundancy is an absolute bore now.
We've seen numerous threads about Barkley's rehab or Jones bringing teammates together that are derailed so that Go Terps can post Jones stats from 2020. It's like any positive news has to be shouted down without there even being a reason to step in and do so.
And again - if people can point to threads started talking about how great things are, by all means, enlighten the board about how shitty the team has been. But when innocuous information about Jones working out with WR's becomes another way to rail on him being picked to be Eli 2.0 and you don't see a problem with that - there's not much to say.
Half of me thinks there's a goal to how many shitty backup QB's Go Terps is going to equate to Daniel Jones that you probably have a drinking game based around it.
They can't hijack a thread if you don't engage with them. If you honesty believe they're just going around trolling, then it's working because you and others feel compelled to engage and THAT is what derails threads.
But, they hear want they want to hear even though most of us have put DISCLAIMERS out there.
I’ve always assumed it’s a given we’re all just exchanging beliefs, and from topic-to-topic the strength of each of our feelings runs on a spectrum from strong to not.
I’ve vehemently disagreed with Terps over the years on a number of topics, but have always respected his civility and effort to back his opinion with something more than insults.
I barely post on these threads anymore, what's the point? And I'm pretty sure most know where I stand on Jones, it's just been rehashed a billion times. What the hell does the first week of a camp tell you about DJ? On a team with a stacked secondary? With lots of new receiving pieces? Fucking nothing.
I really find this odd. But to each their own.
We are essentially a month out from the start of the season. And in this critical third year, sources were saying Jones was off to a rocky start. So why wouldn't that be interesting news to some?
I can manage around it, but there is this arrogant, sanctimonious tone from quite a few who want the conversations to only be a certain cadence. And if if that conversation goes against that grain, they swoop in and tell everyone why BBI is "boring", "redundant", "lacking balance", etc.
If you don't like the content, avoid it. I do. But I don't go around preaching to other what is good content and what is boring, redundant, lacking balance, etc content.
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I barely post on these threads anymore, what's the point? And I'm pretty sure most know where I stand on Jones, it's just been rehashed a billion times. What the hell does the first week of a camp tell you about DJ? On a team with a stacked secondary? With lots of new receiving pieces? Fucking nothing.
I really find this odd. But to each their own.
We are essentially a month out from the start of the season. And in this critical third year, sources were saying Jones was off to a rocky start. So why wouldn't that be interesting news to some?
I can manage around it, but there is this arrogant, sanctimonious tone from quite a few who want the conversations to only be a certain cadence. And if if that conversation goes against that grain, they swoop in and tell everyone why BBI is "boring", "redundant", "lacking balance", etc.
If you don't like the content, avoid it. I do. But I don't go around preaching to other what is good content and what is boring, redundant, lacking balance, etc content.
What in the name of sanity and logic could anyone deduce from no pads practices that DJ is off to a rocky start? That’s nuts. It’s just as nuts if they had said DJ rocked it under the same practice circumstances..
Did I think it was a sign of things to come and it was time to "Break Glass in Case of Emergency"? No.
It really wasn't that big of a deal until the Excuse Makers swooped in and did their thing...
Did I think it was a sign of things to come and it was time to "Break Glass in Case of Emergency"? No.
It really wasn't that big of a deal until the Excuse Makers swooped in and did their thing...
Can you explain why it was so “interesting”?
Did I think it was a sign of things to come and it was time to "Break Glass in Case of Emergency"? No.
It really wasn't that big of a deal until the Excuse Makers swooped in and did their thing...
The ONLY excuse, pro or con, is that it’s practice. Otherwise, what else could be offered?
Good one. 👍🏿👍
If this thesis is true, I’d imagine doing well in those missing milestones would be the goal?
If Jones was doing really well, that’s a good sign, no?
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found it interesting that so many sources we reporting Jones's rough outings in practice. It wasn't one source, it was multiple sources for 3-5 days.
Did I think it was a sign of things to come and it was time to "Break Glass in Case of Emergency"? No.
It really wasn't that big of a deal until the Excuse Makers swooped in and did their thing...
Can you explain why it was so “interesting”?
Yes, because the reporting seemed so unanimous.
If this thesis is true, I’d imagine doing well in those missing milestones would be the goal?
If Jones was doing really well, that’s a good sign, no?
I think the issue lies in who the evaluators of the practice are, and if they know how to judge who is doing well and who is not.
If this thesis is true, I’d imagine doing well in those missing milestones would be the goal?
If Jones was doing really well, that’s a good sign, no?
Practice helps, but many of us were pointing to the actual preseason games under the new regime. At least I was. I wanted to see whatever progress might have been made under a new OC/system in actual combat with being in shells..
A couple of you above have said these very comments. So what is it?
I don't take him seriously. I don't even waste my time reading his posts anymore and wouldn't have noticed that comment if you hadn't quoted it (I do value the opinions of Jay on the Island).
I don't need extra reasons for hoping DJ succeeds beyond the obvious (Giants success), but it will be a nice big fat fucking cherry on top to make the miserable master haters shut TF up and stop vomiting their negativity over every thread about Jones.
I completely agree my man.
The only person in the room with the Giants right now that has much experience with QBs is Jason Garrett. Shurmur helped draft Jones and got the most we've seen out of him so far. "When have the Giants got it wrong with a QB?" Isn't really the question to be asking.
What have we seen from Jones so far to suggest he should have better odds of succeeding? Additionally, what's success for Jones? Is it top five? Top ten? Or just average QB play?
I think the bar has been lowered for Jones by his biggest fans. (I hate this phrasing of Jones fans - I'm rooting for Jones of course)
I'd add, I think there's a weird dance where people say we can't analyze Jones due to the OL but we can analyze Jones THIS year although the OL got worse on paper.
Lastly, I admire GT/djm for at least sticking their necks out even if it's on opposite sides. I'm not going to think either is a moron for being wrong. I'm a little unclear on where some people who yell at GT actually stand.
I think the bar has been lowered for Jones by his biggest fans. (I hate this phrasing of Jones fans - I'm rooting for Jones of course)
This is something I harp on. I was not a fan of Jones, especially as the 6th pick. I viewed him, at best, as a second rounder.
But I'm not an expert evaluator and decided to defer to the experts. If they thought enough of Jones to make him the 6th pick then Jones should be expected - by all of us - to be a player who has that force multiplier impact. That he can elevate the play of others and make chicken salad. Otherwise, why take him that high...right?
While I admit Jones hasn't been provided with the best talent in the league, he hasn't shown enough - to me - that he's capable of making chicken salad. And Jones is likely going to be a player who always needs training wheels succeed. That means having to spend more on other players to be those training wheels...
Is it the final verdict? Of course not. But it’s troubling.
You know why camp performance always comes with an asterisk? Because it is much easier than regular season games. For years we have seen fringe players tear it up in camp only to get cut a few weeks later. And now we have our starting QB coming into the most important season of his life and he looks… meh.
Just awesome.
If this thesis is true, I’d imagine doing well in those missing milestones would be the goal?
If Jones was doing really well, that’s a good sign, no?
A week into camp? Before even shells were on? Come on, Christian.. You’re better than this.
Is it the final verdict? Of course not. But it’s troubling.
You know why camp performance always comes with an asterisk? Because it is much easier than regular season games. For years we have seen fringe players tear it up in camp only to get cut a few weeks later. And now we have our starting QB coming into the most important season of his life and he looks… meh.
Just awesome.
Holy shit. Lol. Giants fans fucking suck. This post has to be sarcasm, right? Right? Please tell me it is?
Criticizing the team is generally a lose-lose situation. Either you wait for the bad stuff to literally bludgeon everyone in the face and get told things like "well you are only saying that with hindsight" where were you before??
Or you criticize before something goes wrong and you are "miserable" or a "bad fan" or my personal favorite "not rooting for the Giants or Daniel Jones" which is just honestly complete insanity for anyone to suggest.
People were too silent for too long and that gave the team too much leeway to fall more and more behind the competition. When I spoke up about their lack of modernization until the day DG pretty much admitted they failed to modernize effectively people were still talking to me like I was way off base and couldn't possible have my facts straight. Then right away it was shouts of "you got what you wanted, shut up." As a best case scenario vs. gaslighting or personal insults.
Nobody wanted to be sitting here watching this mess, certainly not me. But if any of you think we are going to sit here and watch DJ underperform again this year and let the team and many of you act like he was the right pick because DG liked the cut of his jib and fell in love, you all clearly don't know what you are up against either.
Many of you clearly don't mind that they suck and because Mara is such a "good guy" he should get the benefits of the benefits of the doubt. But you are crazy if you think many of us here are just going to let the crap get shoveled down our throats by some of you and this team.
I hope upon hope that Jones is a fantastic QB this year and/or the team wins. But if he doesn't and the team is bad again, and we get some more DG or Kevin Abrams BS I hope upon hope that this is a miserable place for anyone trying to give this team coverage in not taking their responsibility to fans more seriously year after year. John Mara is starting to resemble the south Park BP parody video I'm linking below.
And to be perfectly clear the latter is the last thing I want but the idea that this team should get any little bit of credit in acting like Jones has shown more than he has, which is little to nothing of value anywhere resembling the decision process to draft him is offensive. Let them have all the mountains of credit they want when they turn this around, but that day is not today no matter how strongly some of you want to act like it is.
The yearly Mara apology - ( New Window )
“Nobody wanted to be sitting here watching this mess, certainly not me. But if any of you think we are going to sit here and watch DJ underperform again this year and let the team and many of you act like he was the right pick because DG liked the cut of his jib and fell in love, you all clearly don't know what you are up against either.”
What are you getting at? What is anybody in here or with the Giants “up against? I’m genuinely curious what you mean by that. What’s your plan? What do you plan to do about it?
More and more people are going to pick up their pitchforks if this doesn't get better soon. No matter how optimistic some of you are.
As for me personally, unlike the Giants, I always have a plan
More and more people are going to pick up their pitchforks if this doesn't get better soon. No matter how optimistic some of you are.
As for me personally, unlike the Giants, I always have a plan
Pretty scary. Mara must be shaking in his boots.
If I grab a pitchfork, do I have to give Jones a statement of reassurance before jabbing it at him?
Because clearly any positive things said are just to placate him.
Fuck it - a tine between the 4th and 5th ribs should be fair warning enough that Patton Oswalt isn't going to take it!!
More and more people are going to pick up their pitchforks if this doesn't get better soon. No matter how optimistic some of you are.
As for me personally, unlike the Giants, I always have a plan
Pitckforks.
Yall gone and loss ya mines.
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I’ve read from many posters they believe a big part of the problems last year was the lack of camp, pre-season.
If this thesis is true, I’d imagine doing well in those missing milestones would be the goal?
If Jones was doing really well, that’s a good sign, no?
A week into camp? Before even shells were on? Come on, Christian.. You’re better than this.
All I’m saying is if these are important reps, and he was doing well, it would be fair to take it as a good sign.
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In comment 15322545 christian said:
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I’ve read from many posters they believe a big part of the problems last year was the lack of camp, pre-season.
If this thesis is true, I’d imagine doing well in those missing milestones would be the goal?
If Jones was doing really well, that’s a good sign, no?
A week into camp? Before even shells were on? Come on, Christian.. You’re better than this.
All I’m saying is if these are important reps, and he was doing well, it would be fair to take it as a good sign.
No. These are not important reps. They will let you know when they are and if you can deduce anything from them.
Come on. Be better...
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I find it troubling that the camp reports about Jones have been pretty negative. I like it that he had a good day in pads yesterday but noticed that the same day he was described as throwing an errant pass in 1-on-1 drills with a receiver.
Is it the final verdict? Of course not. But it’s troubling.
You know why camp performance always comes with an asterisk? Because it is much easier than regular season games. For years we have seen fringe players tear it up in camp only to get cut a few weeks later. And now we have our starting QB coming into the most important season of his life and he looks… meh.
Just awesome.
Holy shit. Lol. Giants fans fucking suck. This post has to be sarcasm, right? Right? Please tell me it is?
It's the same way the 8-9 good games he's played are important, but the remaining 23-24 games he's been poor or hasn't played since he got here aren't important.
I can’t help the irony in seeing all the whining about how much people here complain about the team then acting like you aren’t already seeing the pitchforks. BBI and the Giants actually use some pretty classic counter-revolutionary tactics. Like pushing narratives and attempting to discredit the character of those with dissenting opinions. Regardless, that part doesn’t matter just amusing to me that they’d rather think about how to bend a story than how to fix the organization more broadly.
The best part is no matter how much this is attempted. And let’s be clear, there is one side arguing for the competence of a multi billion dollar organization and that’s been a real struggle. That really says everything about why it shouldn’t really be funny to anyone. BBI isn’t the world, the people that speak up slant towards bigger fans, ones that of course would be more positive. Again, crazy that it’s even this bad, that says something. But the real sad part is have cousins in high school I’m close with who have absolutely zero interest in going to see the Giants. The pitchforks are here already you numskulls, in the form of a good number of people thinking this franchise is a joke. Congratulations to those brave keyboard warriors who have fought bravely to defend the monarch who as many of them point out happily will never change. What is funnier than a self identified useless person?
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In comment 15322545 christian said:
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I’ve read from many posters they believe a big part of the problems last year was the lack of camp, pre-season.
If this thesis is true, I’d imagine doing well in those missing milestones would be the goal?
If Jones was doing really well, that’s a good sign, no?
A week into camp? Before even shells were on? Come on, Christian.. You’re better than this.
All I’m saying is if these are important reps, and he was doing well, it would be fair to take it as a good sign.
Not really, unless you look at it as a non negative..Culling anything from this, at this juncture, is silly, imv.
Does the Monarchy take away the cake at the Press buffet and force them to stare at the trophy case with 4 Lombardi's in it until they get the messaging right, or do they do the proper thing and behead the fuckers?
Picture more of a Patton Oswalt...
Mara needs to bump up his personal security.
If anything, the majority of the fanbase was energized by Judge last season and seems to be keeping that momentum of optimism with the additions in the offseason and the expected growth of the young players.
I see this season as one where expectations are finally higher than anytime in the past 7-8 seasons.
I can’t help the irony in seeing all the whining about how much people here complain about the team then acting like you aren’t already seeing the pitchforks. BBI and the Giants actually use some pretty classic counter-revolutionary tactics. Like pushing narratives and attempting to discredit the character of those with dissenting opinions. Regardless, that part doesn’t matter just amusing to me that they’d rather think about how to bend a story than how to fix the organization more broadly.
The best part is no matter how much this is attempted. And let’s be clear, there is one side arguing for the competence of a multi billion dollar organization and that’s been a real struggle. That really says everything about why it shouldn’t really be funny to anyone. BBI isn’t the world, the people that speak up slant towards bigger fans, ones that of course would be more positive. Again, crazy that it’s even this bad, that says something. But the real sad part is have cousins in high school I’m close with who have absolutely zero interest in going to see the Giants. The pitchforks are here already you numskulls, in the form of a good number of people thinking this franchise is a joke. Congratulations to those brave keyboard warriors who have fought bravely to defend the monarch who as many of them point out happily will never change. What is funnier than a self identified useless person?
So, to be clear, you don't like the whining about the whining....
...and your will is strong enough to change the WORLD...or, the Giants' decision making processes?
Dominate!
You go girl...
If anything, the majority of the fanbase was energized by Judge last season and seems to be keeping that momentum of optimism with the additions in the offseason and the expected growth of the young players.
I see this season as one where expectations are finally higher than anytime in the past 7-8 seasons.
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the idea that the majority of the fanbase is pointing pitchforks might be a few years too late.
If anything, the majority of the fanbase was energized by Judge last season and seems to be keeping that momentum of optimism with the additions in the offseason and the expected growth of the young players.
I see this season as one where expectations are finally higher than anytime in the past 7-8 seasons.
Agreed. The arrow is up and the fans should be excited.
The Giants have been bad for a decade. I'm going to wait for them to actually give me a reason to be excited.
Let's start small, let's not start 0-2. Or 0-5. Or 1-6. Or 2-7.
Let's not be out of it by Halloween. And I know they weren't technically out of it last year, but finishing a close 2nd in the worst division ever doesn't do anything for me.
When they display the competence necessary to win football games more often than they lose them, I'll be excited. The arrow is pointing sideways until the results indicate that it's going up.
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In comment 15323039 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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the idea that the majority of the fanbase is pointing pitchforks might be a few years too late.
If anything, the majority of the fanbase was energized by Judge last season and seems to be keeping that momentum of optimism with the additions in the offseason and the expected growth of the young players.
I see this season as one where expectations are finally higher than anytime in the past 7-8 seasons.
Agreed. The arrow is up and the fans should be excited.
The Giants have been bad for a decade. I'm going to wait for them to actually give me a reason to be excited.
Let's start small, let's not start 0-2. Or 0-5. Or 1-6. Or 2-7.
Let's not be out of it by Halloween. And I know they weren't technically out of it last year, but finishing a close 2nd in the worst division ever doesn't do anything for me.
When they display the competence necessary to win football games more often than they lose them, I'll be excited. The arrow is pointing sideways until the results indicate that it's going up.
Need to win ugly in September/October. I am hopeful that half of BBI is complaining about some ugly wins or unimpressive wins with the team sitting around 3-2 or so. Ugly wins get you to January.
This team needs to learn how to win. This D is loaded and together now for two full camps. It's talented. It's been upgraded. If the Giants offense struggles early on, I don't wanna here shit, win ugly. 13-7 is just as effective as 27-13. Get some wins early, and keep grinding and gaining confidence. This is what they couldn't do in 17-20. That needs to change.
That spans 4 head coaches too, that's if you want to call a couple of them head coaches.
Judge needs to right the ship this season. And that begins by starting the season 1-0...
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In comment 15323039 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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the idea that the majority of the fanbase is pointing pitchforks might be a few years too late.
If anything, the majority of the fanbase was energized by Judge last season and seems to be keeping that momentum of optimism with the additions in the offseason and the expected growth of the young players.
I see this season as one where expectations are finally higher than anytime in the past 7-8 seasons.
Agreed. The arrow is up and the fans should be excited.
The Giants have been bad for a decade. I'm going to wait for them to actually give me a reason to be excited.
Let's start small, let's not start 0-2. Or 0-5. Or 1-6. Or 2-7.
Let's not be out of it by Halloween. And I know they weren't technically out of it last year, but finishing a close 2nd in the worst division ever doesn't do anything for me.
When they display the competence necessary to win football games more often than they lose them, I'll be excited. The arrow is pointing sideways until the results indicate that it's going up.
That is certainly fair.
The greatest Giant team of my lifetime didn't win game 1 but they were coming off consecutive years winning playoff games. The 1986 Giants were a legendary team when the season ended with a the Super Bowl win. But for the the first half of the season the offense was terrible for the most part and the wins were "ugly". Whoever said ugly adds up is right. Although after the past decade anytime the Giants win it will be beautiful.
Yeah, I get that. I am certainly excited for Giants football just because it is something I love and have been without for months. My expectations? I try to promise myself that I won't be surprised if they are not a good football team again.
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In comment 15323039 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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the idea that the majority of the fanbase is pointing pitchforks might be a few years too late.
If anything, the majority of the fanbase was energized by Judge last season and seems to be keeping that momentum of optimism with the additions in the offseason and the expected growth of the young players.
I see this season as one where expectations are finally higher than anytime in the past 7-8 seasons.
Agreed. The arrow is up and the fans should be excited.
The Giants have been bad for a decade. I'm going to wait for them to actually give me a reason to be excited.
Let's start small, let's not start 0-2. Or 0-5. Or 1-6. Or 2-7.
Let's not be out of it by Halloween. And I know they weren't technically out of it last year, but finishing a close 2nd in the worst division ever doesn't do anything for me.
When they display the competence necessary to win football games more often than they lose them, I'll be excited. The arrow is pointing sideways until the results indicate that it's going up.
Well said
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and would be if we were 0-16 last year, Maybe there’s confusion around the words excitement and expectations but I don’t know how any fan can go into this season and not be excited. Expectations are a different conversation entirely.
Yeah, I get that. I am certainly excited for Giants football just because it is something I love and have been without for months. My expectations? I try to promise myself that I won't be surprised if they are not a good football team again.
I think after this many bad years, the best I can muster is "hopeful". I'm open to the possibility that this year will be better, but I'm not assuming or even optimistic that it will be.
I'm prepared for anything between 5-9 wins. I'd consider anything outside that range a genuine surprise.
I'm prepared for the possibility that Daniel Jones will be the QB everyone wants him to be. I'm also prepared for the possibility that he's not and never will be.
It's the same way the 8-9 good games he's played are important, but the remaining 23-24 games he's been poor or hasn't played since he got here aren't important.
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In comment 15323176 UConn4523 said:
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and would be if we were 0-16 last year, Maybe there’s confusion around the words excitement and expectations but I don’t know how any fan can go into this season and not be excited. Expectations are a different conversation entirely.
Yeah, I get that. I am certainly excited for Giants football just because it is something I love and have been without for months. My expectations? I try to promise myself that I won't be surprised if they are not a good football team again.
I think after this many bad years, the best I can muster is "hopeful". I'm open to the possibility that this year will be better, but I'm not assuming or even optimistic that it will be.
I'm prepared for anything between 5-9 wins. I'd consider anything outside that range a genuine surprise.
I'm prepared for the possibility that Daniel Jones will be the QB everyone wants him to be. I'm also prepared for the possibility that he's not and never will be.
RS, that seems logical to me. I find myself being hopeful almost every year; I imagine players getting better in the off-season, while not thinking much about players losing a step or not being able to match their production from the year before. That is probably why I get surprised when players are not performing like the year before. My thinking certainly goes astray from logical too often.
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They started being important reps when reports came in yesterday that he was razor sharp. The bad reps aren't important.
It's the same way the 8-9 good games he's played are important, but the remaining 23-24 games he's been poor or hasn't played since he got here aren't important.
That's exactly what worries me about Jones, there is a lot more bad than good so far so we are supposed to ignore the majority of his work and hope the smaller sample eventually tips the balance in his favor? It's certainly possible and I hope for it but you are spot on here there is far more bad than good.
The bad shows where we can improve, the good shows where we're headed.
It's unfortunate that fans come here to cause trouble, because most of the site contains fans wanting to innocently engage in conversation about their team.
It's unfortunate that fans come here to cause trouble, because most of the site contains fans wanting to innocently engage in conversation about their team.
If form holds, he'll get himself banned shortly.
It's only the ones that actually care a lot about the team that have their pitchforks.
No surprise that a small group here also doesn't understand the sampling bias of just looking at the excitement in the most rabid of Giants fans. Even with the deified Joe Judge in place, giving away Giants tickets could often take a few tries. Selling them was right out of the question. Nothing quite captures the lack of excitement for a team than the lack of desire for people to want to buy tickets to go see them.
Do they look better on paper this year? Sure. But that doesn't mean they are out of the laughing stock pile.
I can't believe there are people that live under a big enough rock to not understand that the Giants have become a joke. Browns fans trash talk us, the BROWNS
You are free to feel however you want about them but you are essentially calling for everyone to be pissed and angry about our lack of success. I think i'm good on that, I don't watch sports to get angry, I watch them for entertainment and to have some fun with friends (especially football during the winter with limited outdoor options).
No pitchforks until I have to spread mulch.
I'm really, pretty happy with what 2021 appears to have in store for the Giants.
Sorry, not sorry.
And that yeah, people aren't going to buy anything other than wins at this point. No matter how much you want to spin anything into sunshine and rainbows.
Yes, I do also find the excuse acrobat team you've got going doing their gymnastics only to have it be less and less effective to again, even the most rabid of Giants fans.
Fans want to be optimistic. Your rag tag team of polyanna's seem to miss on this one consistently as you try to discredit people who validly question the competence of your strangely beloved front office.
How did you feel about 2020? 2019? Could you honestly say this was ever not true?
Predicting the Giants will go to the superbowl would be the definition of "blind faith" coming off of another season under .500. Thinking the arrow is pointing up and having fun watching them isn't anything close to "blind faith", a more accurate term would be "normal".
My optimism comes from watching the team.
Clearly, we value different aspects of what is happening on the field.
I might have a higher opinion of the HC than you do.
I am also not allowing my emotions to make decisions regarding my level of enjoyment of the Giants.
But, you be you.
I can't believe there are people that live under a big enough rock to not understand that the Giants have become a joke. Browns fans trash talk us, the BROWNS
I don't know any Browns fans so this really isn't an issue for me.
Actually, are there even enough that this matters?
The inference continues to be that those who are critical are somehow more learned or sophisticated.
I would think that learned people would have a basic understanding that their complaints on a message board have no impact towards what the team does, but after several posts last night and today, alas, that appears to not be the case.
I do not have a plan. I don't own a pitchfork. And I likely won't until I master how to chase windmills....
They tilt...they tilt at windmills.
They tilt...they tilt at windmills.
See. I have a lot, and I mean a LOT to learn. I'm fashioning a balsa wood pitchfork as I type this - and damn- it just snapped!
At least your emotions are not made from balsa.
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...Mr. Quixote.
They tilt...they tilt at windmills.
See. I have a lot, and I mean a LOT to learn. I'm fashioning a balsa wood pitchfork as I type this - and damn- it just snapped!
Well, it wouldn’t be broken if you had a plan. It’s obvious that you’re an educated, pollyanna Giants fan,.
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In comment 15323656 Brown_Hornet said:
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...Mr. Quixote.
They tilt...they tilt at windmills.
See. I have a lot, and I mean a LOT to learn. I'm fashioning a balsa wood pitchfork as I type this - and damn- it just snapped!
Well, it wouldn’t be broken if you had a plan. It’s obvious that you’re an educated, pollyanna Giants fan,.
Uneducated., not educated, obviously!
I just don't have the acumen to grasp it. I feel like I'm sitting across from Rip Torn eating a pile of shit in "Defending Your Life" and enjoying the taste of it while my feeble mind would think it was horrific to the tastebuds.
Maybe I need a plan. Or maybe some special goggles? I'm thinking the goggles might be easier for me.
I know I'm not alone in thinking we probably have our coach and our strongest top to bottom roster in a decade. It's really how good the top pieces turn out to be and there is certainly reason to be hopeful there.
And I don't mind much, it's you who are the Giants "prideful" bunch, despite the complete lack of tangible success to be prideful about, on you go.
It's really the same attitude that has largely sunk the Giants over the past decade but yes, carry on, validate that kind of attitude while falling over yourselves to compliment a 6-10 season.
I'm good either way, if they are good I take no pride in insisting there is some other reality like the ones team polyanna insist exists year after year when they suck and want to rave about how they won 2 of their last 4 in a 4-12 season.
On the flip side, I have no doubt your floor routines will be ready to tell us why we should be excited if we happen to have another losing season.
I'm glad most of you amuse yourselves, again, much like the team, just love to pat yourselves on the back for little to no reason. I care much less about any of this than I used to, it's really the faux caring about the fan base that many of you indulge and even help validate this false narrative. Caring involves a lot more effort to change when you suck than they have displayed.
Many here see the writing on the wall, that Jones perhaps doesn't have the goods but even if he continues to show that he will get way too long of a leash to sink the team. I'd love to be wrong about this. I just hope to be spared from hearing about what good people Jones and Mara and the whole crony gang are if it plays out like that. I just prefer when someone is putting themselves and who they want to hang out with before the people that give them money to produce a good product, I don't have to hear about what good people they are. Just a personal preference, probably "ponderous" to the polyanna gang
I just don't have the acumen to grasp it. I feel like I'm sitting across from Rip Torn eating a pile of shit in "Defending Your Life" and enjoying the taste of it while my feeble mind would think it was horrific to the tastebuds.
Maybe I need a plan. Or maybe some special goggles? I'm thinking the goggles might be easier for me.
Again, funny coming from one of DGs largest supporters. The man that overseen the worst team in the NFL in his tenure somehow wants to parade around here like he is smart and he knows so much.
Vs. the guy who was skeptical from day 1 and turned out to be right on the money, you like to twist as if I'm the stupid one.
Ok, cool. Bye
This really isn't that complicated. Anyone can be aggressively critical, and I used to be a long time ago on this board, but I choose not to anymore because it got to be pretty miserable. It ruins sports for me so I don't do it anymore. I follow some really good and really bad teams, and I approach each the same. If you can't understand that then you are being purposely dense and combative just for the sake of it.
In reality i've recognized many things that need improvement, i just don't harp on it. I've been critical of our GM, our QB, our shitty defense up until last year, and plenty of other things. But you probably missed it because I didn't make sure to post it on ever single thread that's started.
This really isn't that complicated. Anyone can be aggressively critical, and I used to be a long time ago on this board, but I choose not to anymore because it got to be pretty miserable. It ruins sports for me so I don't do it anymore. I follow some really good and really bad teams, and I approach each the same. If you can't understand that then you are being purposely dense and combative just for the sake of it.
In reality i've recognized many things that need improvement, i just don't harp on it. I've been critical of our GM, our QB, our shitty defense up until last year, and plenty of other things. But you probably missed it because I didn't make sure to post it on ever single thread that's started.
They know. We don’t. They’re objective. We drink the Kool-Aid. See how simple it is, broken down?
You do realize there is a wealth of NFL history here, not some blip or dry stretch that fully defines an organization, right? If I go back to Ancient times, I'd get the impression Greece was the leader of all mankind.
The Giants are one of the most successful teams in the NFL. Combined titles and Super Bowls put's them in the Top 5 of all teams. A Super Bowl win in every decade from the 80's on. The team is dripping with tangible success. I'd suggest trapping you in a trophy case wedged behind 4 Lombardi's might give some perspective on that.
The rambling commentary and brash proclamations of having a plan mean exactly what in a historical perspective? I've seen 4 Super Bowl wins in my lifetime by this franchise. What exactly am I supposed to be ashamed of? What bitching and protesting am I supposed to do to scream "I AM NOT ENTERTAINED!!" like a Roman Gladiator (Another pinnacle of society in the early days)
That's what I don't get about people who proclaim themselves "realists". They snub their nose at history and the expectation is they will follow a perfect organization. One that makes the right moves and is a perennial winner. And there's still not a team that does that. And before I hear a peep about New England, ask their fans how they felt from 1964 to 1975 where they had two winning seasons and no playoff appearances. Or even from 1987 to 1993.
Calling people polyannas who hope the team does well is a farce when the realistic view is the expectation the team will be run flawlessly and win consistently - something that isn't done. The Carolina Panthers, who have been in existence since 1994 have never had back to back winning seasons. Never. What is their recourse? The Cowboys haven't won anything of note since 1995 so should they have stormed AT&T and ripped Skeletor out by his clavicle?
I'm also quite concerned about the way Mara recently talked about DG, seems like he might stay employed even if there is another disappointing season. And I'd like to avoid the overall idea that he's done everything right and him and Judge are this fantastic team and should stay if the results aren't there.
I'm more optimistic about this season than I've been in a while, I just am really hoping if Jones drags the team down it's the end of the DG era. And not the beginning of the Abrams or other crony hire era.
My biggest concern is the victory laps being taken by the pro-DG crowd before this team has accomplished anything. I won't have any problems enjoying this season if they aren't garbage
Whoops...you went too far there Zeke.
The conceptual phrase of posters saying "the arrow is pointing up" has been going on for quite a number of years here. And it certainly wasn't some very small minority.
Hope is a good thing too (per my friend Andy), but that's all it really turned out to be...
I'm even warming up to DG...partly because he's made what appears to be multiple positive moves in the past 2 offseasons. He is also working well with JJ.
I will admit, I'm also beginning to like him because it tweeks the miserable lot that can't go a week without denigrating him.
This has been a great offseason for the Giants. You stated that the Giants need to win the Super Bowl in order to not be the laughing stock of the league...
...I don't know how you manage to fit that much hyperbole in the room but as I have said...
You be you.
I'm also quite concerned about the way Mara recently talked about DG, seems like he might stay employed even if there is another disappointing season. And I'd like to avoid the overall idea that he's done everything right and him and Judge are this fantastic team and should stay if the results aren't there.
I'm more optimistic about this season than I've been in a while, I just am really hoping if Jones drags the team down it's the end of the DG era. And not the beginning of the Abrams or other crony hire era.
My biggest concern is the victory laps being taken by the pro-DG crowd before this team has accomplished anything. I won't have any problems enjoying this season if they aren't garbage
NGD - you are kind of all over the board on this now.
After going thru a few soliloquies earlier and concerning yourself about Browns fans ridiculing your team, you are now stating you are as optimistic as ever. If its truly the latter then good...you're all set to watch the season.
And coming from the biggest DG critic on this board, I seldom see anyone seriously taking victory laps. They would be doing it to goad a reaction if so and only wind up looking foolish. Plenty of DG defenders mind you, but very few brave enough to take laps. Most have converted to Judge advocates anyway because confidence in that GM, by himself, smartly fell out of favor.
And am not feeling great about Jones or what a commitment to Jones could do for the overall success of the team.
As for Brown Hornet and DG, they've been the worst team in the league since he's been hired. The Giants have had a total of 37 wins in 8 seasons since the Super Bowl victory or about 4.6 a year. You aren't witnessing any discomfort with DG it's his performance that makes many squirm.
I was skeptical from the start yes, but would have loved for him to do well and prove me wrong. I would have come to enjoy his terrible media presence even if he was any good at his job.
You do realize there is a wealth of NFL history here, not some blip or dry stretch that fully defines an organization, right? If I go back to Ancient times, I'd get the impression Greece was the leader of all mankind.
The Giants are one of the most successful teams in the NFL. Combined titles and Super Bowls put's them in the Top 5 of all teams. A Super Bowl win in every decade from the 80's on. The team is dripping with tangible success. I'd suggest trapping you in a trophy case wedged behind 4 Lombardi's might give some perspective on that.
The rambling commentary and brash proclamations of having a plan mean exactly what in a historical perspective? I've seen 4 Super Bowl wins in my lifetime by this franchise. What exactly am I supposed to be ashamed of? What bitching and protesting am I supposed to do to scream "I AM NOT ENTERTAINED!!" like a Roman Gladiator (Another pinnacle of society in the early days)
That's what I don't get about people who proclaim themselves "realists". They snub their nose at history and the expectation is they will follow a perfect organization. One that makes the right moves and is a perennial winner. And there's still not a team that does that. And before I hear a peep about New England, ask their fans how they felt from 1964 to 1975 where they had two winning seasons and no playoff appearances. Or even from 1987 to 1993.
Calling people polyannas who hope the team does well is a farce when the realistic view is the expectation the team will be run flawlessly and win consistently - something that isn't done. The Carolina Panthers, who have been in existence since 1994 have never had back to back winning seasons. Never. What is their recourse? The Cowboys haven't won anything of note since 1995 so should they have stormed AT&T and ripped Skeletor out by his clavicle?
Wait so does that mean Yankees fans can't be critical of the team ever because they've won 27 championships?
Past success doesn't excuse current failure
And if Jones becomes the guy, then they can extend him and DG may just very well go off into the sunset and hang out with his buddy Kelvin Benjamin on a beach somewhere...
Lol well I don't often participate in the Yankees threads here, yeah I've seen that before. The first half of the year the criticism has certainly been warranted though.
And if Jones becomes the guy, then they can extend him and DG may just very well go off into the sunset and hang out with his buddy Kelvin Benjamin on a beach somewhere...
I have serious doubts about Jones having a mediocre to bad season and both him and DG hanging around but I'd LOVE to be wrong about that
Past success doesn't excuse current failure
It isn't about being critical. It is the act that the team is an abject failure and that there's been no tangible record of success. If somebody says the Yankees are the worst franchise in the MLB and are getting laughed at by Pirate fans and acts like the team is dogshit year in and out, they should get ridiculed, especially if their tone is that the team will never get better with the people in charge.
Again - taking a snapshot of any franchise in any sport at their lowest point or during a dry stretch is going to look really bad., yet people still remain fans.
The folly is thinking that if the Yankees do poorly that I can post on a message board ripping Cashman and ownership and thinking they have a mandate to act upon my bitching. That if there is positive comments about a young pitcher, that they are being said just to protect a fragile psyche. That, as a fan, I need a plan.
I watch the games. I follow the team. How that translates to success or failure or better yet, thinking that it translates to having an impact is simply delusional.
Well, that remains to be seen, right? We have the same players, but they may not perform the same as last year, for better or for worse.
I hope you're right. Even so, the team is still constructed around Jones and Barkley, both of whom were drafted under the Gettleman methodology (whatever that is).
I want Judge and his people to bring in a quarterback using their scouting and evaluation methodologies, which I would trust a great deal more than Gettleman's.
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This team is in trouble. Blame DG. Most important thing to have and we don’t.
Well, that remains to be seen, right? We have the same players, but they may not perform the same as last year, for better or for worse.
Two of the starters are not the same, so this calculus is a little more complicated than this, no?
All fine and good. But if it's Abrams next that would signal that it's going to be more similar to DG than not IMO.
I'd have no issue with O'Brien taking over
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Wait so does that mean Yankees fans can't be critical of the team ever because they've won 27 championships?
Past success doesn't excuse current failure
It isn't about being critical. It is the act that the team is an abject failure and that there's been no tangible record of success. If somebody says the Yankees are the worst franchise in the MLB and are getting laughed at by Pirate fans and acts like the team is dogshit year in and out, they should get ridiculed, especially if their tone is that the team will never get better with the people in charge.
Again - taking a snapshot of any franchise in any sport at their lowest point or during a dry stretch is going to look really bad., yet people still remain fans.
The folly is thinking that if the Yankees do poorly that I can post on a message board ripping Cashman and ownership and thinking they have a mandate to act upon my bitching. That if there is positive comments about a young pitcher, that they are being said just to protect a fragile psyche. That, as a fan, I need a plan.
I watch the games. I follow the team. How that translates to success or failure or better yet, thinking that it translates to having an impact is simply delusional.
Imagine the Yankees of the late 80s and early 90s, especially after a Mets title, with social media.
I understand that what's posted here, on Twitter, etc means nothing at the end of the day. Doesn't mean I can't be upset with how the team has played, been constructed, and run even though I've seen more titles than some teams combined
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He is losing power and will ease into retirement. That O’Brien hire and the free agency signings that followed (several Lions and a TE from one of their division rivals) shows who has the influence.
All fine and good. But if it's Abrams next that would signal that it's going to be more similar to DG than not IMO.
I'd have no issue with O'Brien taking over
This is such BS. You don’t know the first thing about how Abrams would conduct business. Abrams and DG have nothing in common other than they are in the organization. Which I realize is your hang up. If he’s part of this organization in any capacity he’s part of the problem. Got it.
Abrams is a cap guy. It doesn’t take a super genius to figure out that if he were to take over, it’s with the idea the coaching staff would have a ton of input into roster construction. Well, they already do, but that would go against your narrative that DG is the devil. I’m not a fan of Gettleman. Would prefer someone else. But that dude never stood a chance here from the time he was hired because he’s not a computer geek. Let’s not act like you want him fired because of the performance. You wanted him fired the second he walked through the door. Because he doesn’t look and sound like you. That is a fact.
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He is losing power and will ease into retirement. That O’Brien hire and the free agency signings that followed (several Lions and a TE from one of their division rivals) shows who has the influence.
I hope you're right. Even so, the team is still constructed around Jones and Barkley, both of whom were drafted under the Gettleman methodology (whatever that is).
I want Judge and his people to bring in a quarterback using their scouting and evaluation methodologies, which I would trust a great deal more than Gettleman's.
What if Jones is who Judge and his people want at QB?
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In comment 15323857 cosmicj said:
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He is losing power and will ease into retirement. That O’Brien hire and the free agency signings that followed (several Lions and a TE from one of their division rivals) shows who has the influence.
I hope you're right. Even so, the team is still constructed around Jones and Barkley, both of whom were drafted under the Gettleman methodology (whatever that is).
I want Judge and his people to bring in a quarterback using their scouting and evaluation methodologies, which I would trust a great deal more than Gettleman's.
What if Jones is who Judge and his people want at QB?
Then my confidence in Judge would lower significantly, and my optimism for 2022 and beyond would wane.
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In comment 15323868 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15323857 cosmicj said:
Quote:
He is losing power and will ease into retirement. That O’Brien hire and the free agency signings that followed (several Lions and a TE from one of their division rivals) shows who has the influence.
I hope you're right. Even so, the team is still constructed around Jones and Barkley, both of whom were drafted under the Gettleman methodology (whatever that is).
I want Judge and his people to bring in a quarterback using their scouting and evaluation methodologies, which I would trust a great deal more than Gettleman's.
What if Jones is who Judge and his people want at QB?
Then my confidence in Judge would lower significantly, and my optimism for 2022 and beyond would wane.
OH dear -- Lol -- Go Panic dude!
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In comment 15323868 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15323857 cosmicj said:
Quote:
He is losing power and will ease into retirement. That O’Brien hire and the free agency signings that followed (several Lions and a TE from one of their division rivals) shows who has the influence.
I hope you're right. Even so, the team is still constructed around Jones and Barkley, both of whom were drafted under the Gettleman methodology (whatever that is).
I want Judge and his people to bring in a quarterback using their scouting and evaluation methodologies, which I would trust a great deal more than Gettleman's.
What if Jones is who Judge and his people want at QB?
Then my confidence in Judge would lower significantly, and my optimism for 2022 and beyond would wane.
Haha. This is great. You simply cannot make this shit up.
As for this gem of a quote
Couldn't miss me by more. I actually value leadership above all else. Good leaders are accountable, they are open minded, they want to soak in new ideas and never miss any potential edge.
DG graded quite poorly in my book because of the way he discussed ideas and the structure of the organization around and below him. Yes, the way he acted and spoke, I rated it highly likely that the Giants would continue to lag behind on innovation, I spoke out about that and it wasn't the hardest prediction to make. It's good to understand all the potential innovations, explore them, hire the right team to put you in a place where you can get ahead. I don't want a "geek" I want someone who unlike DG has a curiosity for what he doesn't know, instead of acting like he has all the answers. That pompous fake keyboarding was everything that is wrong with him.
If I was going to ding Judge for keeping Jones past this year (without even knowing how the fuck Jones does this year), I'd absolutely rip Judge for going into a year on a QB he doesn't believe in.
Luckily my mind doesn't fuck with me like that...
Why do I picture this guy? Just a fucking joke at this point. A meme
Well, that’s that! Google search “stats” has spoken! Evaluation complete. No need to see any more! Judge is an idiot. Its obvious to any nerd that’s gone to Pro Football Reference to evaluate players. I’ve lost confidence in Judge. Because posters that have probably never even put their hand on a football, let alone play the game at any level, make evaluations on Google.
Fire everyone!!!
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In comment 15323845 Carl in CT said:
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This team is in trouble. Blame DG. Most important thing to have and we don’t.
Well, that remains to be seen, right? We have the same players, but they may not perform the same as last year, for better or for worse.
Two of the starters are not the same, so this calculus is a little more complicated than this, no?
I am on the fence about that one. . .
Past success doesn't excuse current failure
I completely agree...
... And past failure doesn't define future success.
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Past success doesn't excuse current failure
I completely agree...
... And past failure doesn't define future success.
No it does not, but usually there's usually a noticable inflection point for when the turn from bad to good happens. Is there JJ hire that inflection point? Personally I think more changes are needed
Of course Scooter is right.
But I meant further up with the nice pic and comment. Here’s your chance...
BBI's version of Pat Leonard - Jimmy Clownshoes
Discourse...
BBI's version of Pat Leonard - Jimmy Clownshoes
Some people just need to put down the pitchforks I guess...
Reasonable people don’t pretend to have so much knowledge or a crystal ball. Reasonable people acknowledge that Jones has shown some flashes (set some records as a rookie) and had a long list of shit going against him in his 2nd year. Reasonable people know that whether he's our franchise QB for the next 10 years is still TBD.
The idea that a coach like Joe Judge is willing to fail this year and wait until next yr to address the QB position, makes no sense to me. He's turning over the bottom 5 of the roster like i don’t know if I've seen before, but we're supposed to believe he went through this past offseason and draft just waiting for NEXT year to think about QB? Right.
The more reasonable explanation is that Judge really believes in Jones (like he says he does), he saw the flashes, understands all the shit Jones had going against him and thinks with more weapons, more experience/coaching and improved OL, Jones could be the guy. We will see.
That was a great post Doc. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
What he says in public is moot. He would not be doing his job if he wasn't saying all the right things to support him and cultivate his success. He might be wild about the guy. He might simply think Jones is the best QB option available right now.
year 2 or 3? - ( New Window )
God bless him and I like him as a poster, but if Go Terps had the posting style of DJM I think some BBIers would explode.
Is the current number of Terps-inspired BBI'er explosions somehow unimpressive to you? :)
Googs, I have reflected upon your point and admit that it is a valid point. When it comes to other people's behavior I should just keep quiet. It is not like I do not have many things to work on with myself.
My apologies.
Well Brett, any perfection I have obtained is due to the source, BrettNYG10.