If you are worried because Jones has not completed a lot of passes in training camp, I would not worry. He has not had problems completing passes in the past.
His problem has been turnovers. Interceptions and fumbles. Hopefully this problem has been addressed by improving his offensive line and by adding some pretty good receivers. If the interceptions and fumbles continue, then it will be time for us to worry.
That's really the only difference I see. If I really wanted to I can pick apart any player and become obsessive about it but I personally don't see the point in that because it has no effect on the outcome. When I was in my teens and early 20's I was definitely more critical, but now? Ehh, it just isn't enjoyable to treat sports that way for me anymore.
Yeah. Many here feel 25 games played by a QB is far from definitive, pro or con and are waiting to see how he does with a (hopefully) healthy year 3, pro or con..Seeing “signs” which may or may not make for good discussion, is also hardly definitive, pro or con, imv
What were people saying about Mayfield going into last season? Now he's looked at completely differently. Same as Josh Allen. Meanwhile, a guy like Kyler Murray gets a lot of praise and still has significant questions on his future.
Sy summed it up perfectly when he said the foolish people are the ones thinking the book has been written on Jones or that anyone knows what he is right now.
And just because that doesn't follow the path of other players doesn't make it wrong - just different
That's really the only difference I see. If I really wanted to I can pick apart any player and become obsessive about it but I personally don't see the point in that because it has no effect on the outcome. When I was in my teens and early 20's I was definitely more critical, but now? Ehh, it just isn't enjoyable to treat sports that way for me anymore.
How much more conviction do you need than that?
I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
Reasonable people don’t pretend to have so much knowledge or a crystal ball. Reasonable people acknowledge that Jones has shown some flashes (set some records as a rookie) and had a long list of shit going against him in his 2nd year. Reasonable people know that whether he's our franchise QB for the next 10 years is still TBD.
The idea that a coach like Joe Judge is willing to fail this year and wait until next yr to address the QB position, makes no sense to me. He's turning over the bottom 5 of the roster like i don’t know if I've seen before, but we're supposed to believe he went through this past offseason and draft just waiting for NEXT year to think about QB? Right.
The more reasonable explanation is that Judge really believes in Jones (like he says he does), he saw the flashes, understands all the shit Jones had going against him and thinks with more weapons, more experience/coaching and improved OL, Jones could be the guy. We will see.
Thanks Brown Hornet. I appreciate your posts too.
Kyler Murray, Devin White, D.K. Metcalf, Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Dashuan Watson, TJ Watt, CMC, Budda Baker. I’m sure I’ve missed some.
I’m honestly just surprised fewer people don’t have a conviction about Jones. I respect that Terps stands by his conviction. He certainly did with Eli Manning.
There is a difference between thinking Jones is going to continue to struggle and rooting for Jones to struggle to be “right”.
IMV, Terps is merely predicting that Jones, based on his body of work to date and some of his shortcomings, will not improve much anymore and we will be left looking for another solution. And he tries to support that through various objective and subjective methods. But he’s not rooting for Jones to fail. I’ve never sensed that.
But the sharks are definitely circling early to rip Terps because they can’t make that differentiation. Which is more of a reflection of their daftness than Terps’s desire to be right.
He’s written many, many times he hopes Jones succeeds and he has to eat crow. Alas, the daft struggle with their comprehension skills…
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One thing that’s strange — I see Terps go on record and predict Jones, based on his play do far — projects to be a backup.
I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
Reasonable people don’t pretend to have so much knowledge or a crystal ball. Reasonable people acknowledge that Jones has shown some flashes (set some records as a rookie) and had a long list of shit going against him in his 2nd year. Reasonable people know that whether he's our franchise QB for the next 10 years is still TBD.
The idea that a coach like Joe Judge is willing to fail this year and wait until next yr to address the QB position, makes no sense to me. He's turning over the bottom 5 of the roster like i don’t know if I've seen before, but we're supposed to believe he went through this past offseason and draft just waiting for NEXT year to think about QB? Right.
The more reasonable explanation is that Judge really believes in Jones (like he says he does), he saw the flashes, understands all the shit Jones had going against him and thinks with more weapons, more experience/coaching and improved OL, Jones could be the guy. We will see.
I also think it's reasonable that Judge believes in Jones. However, unlike what you were intimating above that he is not willing to fail, I think he is.
It is perfectly reasonable to believe that Judge has enough confidence in Jones to keeping going with him in Year 3, but no so much confidence that if he fails his leash will be pulled in very tight to try and salvage this season. And then Judge will start looking ahead to opportunities in free agency or with a bountiful amount of draft picks next year to possibly "reset" at QB.
Otoh, Simms’ injuries essentially made him a less than reliable player, from 1979-83, so there’s that. Of course, there was no social media or incessant calls for his head as frustrating as it was. Patience is virtually non-existent today..
When the GM who chose Jones tells everyone in the world that he fell in "full bloom love" with him based on watching him for three series at the Senior Bowl and "couldn't risk" waiting to draft him at #17, why would anyone expect fans to be patient?
This also isn't 1983, and you can't hold onto a player's rights forever - the decision on Jones' 5th year option (or extension) comes in 9 months. That's not impatience, that's a financial reality.
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our biggest rival. For example, Carson Wentz. Injuries are the biggie, and that's something that's 100% on him just like it is 100% on Jones. But in terms of performance there's no doubt that their awful WR's corps, a decling Ertz, a non stop merry go round at RB and suspect line play are all big reasons why he's regressed. Those aren't excuses, they are absolutely positively reasons why he isn't a better QB.
So that's my issue when we talk about Jones. He's essentially experienced what Wentz did in 2020 but for the first 2 years of his career and he's never experienced a plus unit anywhere on offense except for a handful of games with Barkley on a bad ankle.
You can say that for Jones going back to Duke, where his career wasn't exceptional either. There's no shame in that - his team was probably overmatched in most games.
What you are missing is that the criticism isn't of Jones. The criticism is of the people that decided to build the team around him despite his never once showing that he is a top level player.
What Essex said above is accurate: Jones's trouble is with seeing and processing the game. That was a problem at Duke - so how is it not going to be a problem in the NFL?
He's an NFL backup-level talent that got overdrafted because he looks and feels like Eli Manning. That's not a criticism of Jones...it's a criticism of the front office that drafted him. It always has been.
Bullshit. Backup talents under 25 year of age don't run faster than most QBs and possess good size and arm strength. They MIGHT be backups one day, but that guy isn't a backup this early in his career. Once again you are making shit up.
A team liked Jones enough to draft him at 6. Reports say other teams liked him in round 1. We KNOW one did. That means he had enough talent to be drafted early. And he CLEARLY possesses NFL talent. Anyone can see that, except you.
I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
I'm not sure about that. There are posters who think the third year "pop" is likely going to happen for Jones - like they think it did for Allen and Mayfield - and that is based on the flashes Jones has shown and this new infantry DG has brought in...
Most great NFL QBS were insanely productive in college. This is a fact. But damn those little details, where the devil lies. Most insanely productive college QBs did so in a small school, playing in a small conference, OR playing for a big school surrounded by a lot of collegiate talent. Jones was the rare talent that played for a small (football wise, Duke) school but in a relatively tough conference, and we had NO talent around him. He posted (approx) a 17-19 overall record and owns just about every record there is at Duke. He had a winning record in 17 and 18. At Duke. With nothing around him.
Duke has had FIVE winning records since 2002. Jones was the starter in two of those.
He wasn't exactly bad in college. Devil is in the details.
Also, there have been instances where "poor" statistical QBs from college turned into dominant pro QBs. So there's that.
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After their first two years in the NFL, I can think of several players recently I was pretty certain would be quality career starters.
Kyler Murray, Devin White, D.K. Metcalf, Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Dashuan Watson, TJ Watt, CMC, Budda Baker. I’m sure I’ve missed some.
I’m honestly just surprised fewer people don’t have a conviction about Jones. I respect that Terps stands by his conviction. He certainly did with Eli Manning.
There is a difference between thinking Jones is going to continue to struggle and rooting for Jones to struggle to be “right”.
IMV, Terps is merely predicting that Jones, based on his body of work to date and some of his shortcomings, will not improve much anymore and we will be left looking for another solution. And he tries to support that through various objective and subjective methods. But he’s not rooting for Jones to fail. I’ve never sensed that.
But the sharks are definitely circling early to rip Terps because they can’t make that differentiation. Which is more of a reflection of their daftness than Terps’s desire to be right.
He’s written many, many times he hopes Jones succeeds and he has to eat crow. Alas, the daft struggle with their comprehension skills…
What's he's rooting for is Gettleman to fail and be fired, and John Mara to give up the team. He spends his time hammering this relentlessly, posting his proofs and analysis, and anything, objective or not, that supports his contention that everything that Gettleman and Mara has done is wrong, was done with poor judgment and is going to fail. This is what he is rooting for, Jones is part of that analysis, and it's hardly objective, except he seems to like Joe Judge for some reason, which is an unexplainable contradiction in his analysis.
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Otoh, Simms’ injuries essentially made him a less than reliable player, from 1979-83, so there’s that. Of course, there was no social media or incessant calls for his head as frustrating as it was. Patience is virtually non-existent today..
When the GM who chose Jones tells everyone in the world that he fell in "full bloom love" with him based on watching him for three series at the Senior Bowl and "couldn't risk" waiting to draft him at #17, why would anyone expect fans to be patient?
This also isn't 1983, and you can't hold onto a player's rights forever - the decision on Jones' 5th year option (or extension) comes in 9 months. That's not impatience, that's a financial reality.
Because he didn’t say/imply that DJ would excel coming out of the gate. As with many (most?) heralded QBs coming out of college, it could take several years (2-3) for potential (or bust) to be realized. Not everyone starts out like Dan Marino.
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In comment 15321929 christian said:
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After their first two years in the NFL, I can think of several players recently I was pretty certain would be quality career starters.
Kyler Murray, Devin White, D.K. Metcalf, Quenton Nelson, Darius Leonard, Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, Dashuan Watson, TJ Watt, CMC, Budda Baker. I’m sure I’ve missed some.
I’m honestly just surprised fewer people don’t have a conviction about Jones. I respect that Terps stands by his conviction. He certainly did with Eli Manning.
There is a difference between thinking Jones is going to continue to struggle and rooting for Jones to struggle to be “right”.
IMV, Terps is merely predicting that Jones, based on his body of work to date and some of his shortcomings, will not improve much anymore and we will be left looking for another solution. And he tries to support that through various objective and subjective methods. But he’s not rooting for Jones to fail. I’ve never sensed that.
But the sharks are definitely circling early to rip Terps because they can’t make that differentiation. Which is more of a reflection of their daftness than Terps’s desire to be right.
He’s written many, many times he hopes Jones succeeds and he has to eat crow. Alas, the daft struggle with their comprehension skills…
What's he's rooting for is Gettleman to fail and be fired, and John Mara to give up the team. He spends his time hammering this relentlessly, posting his proofs and analysis, and anything, objective or not, that supports his contention that everything that Gettleman and Mara has done is wrong, was done with poor judgment and is going to fail. This is what he is rooting for, Jones is part of that analysis, and it's hardly objective, except he seems to like Joe Judge for some reason, which is an unexplainable contradiction in his analysis.
and maybe everything is the wrong word -- it's the vast majority of what they have done
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I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
I'm not sure about that. There are posters who think the third year "pop" is likely going to happen for Jones - like they think it did for Allen and Mayfield - and that is based on the flashes Jones has shown and this new infantry DG has brought in...
I may be a broken record on this, but I really think the biggest factor to what we see out of Jones will be the OL. That doesn't absolve him of any accountability. It is more about the OL needing to improve. Do they need to be world beaters? Nope. But, if they continue to be one of the bottom 5 or 6 OLs in the league, Jones and anybody else we put under center stands to struggle more than not.
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In comment 15321837 christian said:
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I don’t really ever read anyone go on record and say, based on his play so far, I think Jones is going to be a quality long term starter.
I'm not sure about that. There are posters who think the third year "pop" is likely going to happen for Jones - like they think it did for Allen and Mayfield - and that is based on the flashes Jones has shown and this new infantry DG has brought in...
I see 2 problems with some blind optimism. One, is the assumption that Jones will just magically see a 3rd year jump, as if it is a given for every 3rd year player at every position. Two, is pointing to Allen's 3rd year as evidence it WILL happen for Jones. It MAY. But it, MAY NOT.
But that isn't a fair take of the majority of DJ supporters. Suggesting a third year for more improvement and development isn't magic...its a whole other year.
And while I cringe a bit when Josh Allen is brought up because the posters that do it are awful at using it effectively (or fairly) to make their case for DJ, he is indeed a recent young guy that showed a great deal of improvement. He is also not typically mentioned as an example that Jones WILL get better as an absolute...
I am bullish on DJ but I haven't seen blind optimism or anything more than fans rooting for their guy.
A team liked Jones enough to draft him at 6. Reports say other teams liked him in round 1. We KNOW one did. That means he had enough talent to be drafted early. And he CLEARLY possesses NFL talent. Anyone can see that, except you.
NFL GM's get paid to be CORRECT in their pre-draft analysis and decisions. The other teams rumored to be interested in Jones were:
1) Denver: Aside from having Peyton Manning fall in his lap, John Elway's record of QB evaluation is rather poor. Brock Osweiler. Trevor Siemian. Paxton Lynch. Drew Lock.
2) Washington: Everyone involved with the 2018 draft has been fired. The QB they ultimately selected has been disastrous.
That doesn't mean that Jones CAN'T develop as a QB, but the appeal to the authority of other NFL talent evaluators has no merit. Dave Gettleman didn't have to draft Daniel Jones, he loved him and he jumped at the chance. He will fairly be judged on how Jones performs, and time is short for Jones to deliver before serious financial decisions need to be made.
The reality is this:
- he was drafted #6 to be the franchise quarterback
- he has an 8-18 record as a starter
- he was the 20th rated passer in the league in 2019, 30th in 2020
- the Giants have to decide on his fifth year option after this season
- the Giants have two first round picks in the 2022 draft
You can whine about impatience and Simms and Eli all you want, but the reality of the situation is he has to produce this year behind a paper thin OL and with an offensive coordinator whose offense doesn't seem to line up with his strengths.
If we were watching this situation play out on a division rival we'd laugh about their prospects and their methods. But because fans like BB56, Brown Hornet, UConn, etc. don't want to separate rooting interest from reality these threads devolve into bullshit posts about bat signals and popcorn.
Duly noted
As for our rivals, 2 of the 3 have big questions at QB and I hope it continues. That’s it. I’m not laughing at them and threads about our rivals in general are few and far between. I hope they stink, simple as that. If Daniel Jones was a Redskin I’d hope that he’d never be good and that would be the end of it.
Your take was that Washington was actually in a better place than us because they recognized Haskins wasn't the QB and they moved away from him to reset the position. And what did they do then? They signed a nearly 40 year old QB who has never played in the postseason.
Laughter? Not from you.
Your take was that Washington was actually in a better place than us because they recognized Haskins wasn't the QB and they moved away from him to reset the position. And what did they do then? They signed a nearly 40 year old QB who has never played in the postseason.
I think the signing of Fitztragic will come back and bite WFT if he's the main starter the entire year.
But that's a separate decision - and an obvious stop-gap move - than the absolute correct decision to cut their losses on Haskins. Who was a complete disaster.
Well put. And pithy at that so you get extra points...
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If we were watching this situation play out on a division rival we'd laugh about their prospects and their methods
Your take was that Washington was actually in a better place than us because they recognized Haskins wasn't the QB and they moved away from him to reset the position. And what did they do then? They signed a nearly 40 year old QB who has never played in the postseason.
Laughter? Not from you.
Why would I laugh? They realized their mistake and moved on before we did. We're still in our mistake.
They spent $10M and no draft picks and got a better player in Fitzpatrick than we have in Jones.
Latest odds to win NFC East:
WFT +230
NYG +450
Why would I be laughing at them? They have a better team and a better quarterback for a fraction of the cost of ours.
I can honestly say I haven't heard or seen one blindly optimistic take on Jones since last season ended. Where are all these insane posts? I know where the negative ones are. Where are all the ones screaming JONES IS AWESOME TRUST ME?"
Some of us want to see him play some more. Book isn't done yet. Some reputable NFL people feel the same way. Some NFL current and former scouts do as well.
Fitz upside is off the charts good. Maybe he will finally play well for 16 games, he's still young. And he's certainly well insulated in Washington.
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clearly some posting about DJ with blind optimism in mind...
I can honestly say I haven't heard or seen one blindly optimistic take on Jones since last season ended. Where are all these insane posts?
Not one? Not a single solitary post for 7 months?
Well I will let you do some homework but you may want to start with the guys that make the blanket statement "Jones will be fine"...
I know, 6th overall and all that shite. He's still making more money than Jones.
It's ok to wait it out another year before you stand on the mtn top of being right and scream how much Jones sucks. It's still early. Just saying.
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In comment 15322223 Jimmy Googs said:
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clearly some posting about DJ with blind optimism in mind...
I can honestly say I haven't heard or seen one blindly optimistic take on Jones since last season ended. Where are all these insane posts?
Not one? Not a single solitary post for 7 months?
Well I will let you do some homework but you may want to start with the guys that make the blanket statement "Jones will be fine"...
If I have seen one, it's outnumbered by some of this daily trash by a count of 100-1.
Just fucking watch the season and shut it for five seconds.
They were fools to draft Haskins. I said at the time I wouldn't draft him in the seventh round.
I'm not congratulating them for blowing a draft pick. I am saying they did the right thing in acknowledging they fucked up and moved on. That process started after his rookie season - Rivera came in and brought Kyle Allen with him. He didn't wait long for Haskins to prove he wasn't the guy, and when he didn't he was quick to make the switch to the guy he was familiar with.
WFT, like Arizona with Rosen, showed it isn't as disastrous to miss on a first round quarterback as it used to be pre-2011 CBA. Missing on a first round quarterback used to be double jeopardy - you'd lose the pick and take a colossal cap loss. That's not the case anymore with the rookie wage scale.
WFT moved on and improved at quarterback in the short term. What if we'd done the same? What if we'd traded Jones and signed Fitzpatrick? We'd be in a better spot - we'd have a better QB now and more draft assets in 2022...not to mention that Fitzpatrick would be a great fit for Garrett.
We've got to stop thinking about Jones as a long term franchise quarterback, and we should be open to improving upon him as soon as the opportunity arrives. The defense and coaching staff are good enough that the team could be in the playoffs with representative quarterback play.
Someone says Jones could get better because the team got better and he's in the same system for 2 years and people dial it back to 2019-2020 or even college and say NOPE, he sucked then, he's gonna suck now. I just think that's an odd way to think. I also think some here cannot forget things that probably should be forgotten, or at least not hyper focused on. Some of you have odd memory placement. You remember shit that suits your agenda but either forget or ignore the shit that doesn't.
It's year 3. You will have your pound of flesh soon enough if Jones falters. If he is merely solid I am sure that won't be good enough and we will be bitching and moaning some more.
This isn't about your level of toleration. You can control that very aspect of your life through your own activities on BBI.
I said there are indeed some posting of blind optimism and gave you a valid example where they come from...
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its that he was an insubordinate who wasn't good enough to deal with. Many players like that are cut early because they are uncoachable. I wouldn't congratulate them on a fairly obvious move.
They were fools to draft Haskins. I said at the time I wouldn't draft him in the seventh round.
I'm not congratulating them for blowing a draft pick. I am saying they did the right thing in acknowledging they fucked up and moved on. That process started after his rookie season - Rivera came in and brought Kyle Allen with him. He didn't wait long for Haskins to prove he wasn't the guy, and when he didn't he was quick to make the switch to the guy he was familiar with.
WFT, like Arizona with Rosen, showed it isn't as disastrous to miss on a first round quarterback as it used to be pre-2011 CBA. Missing on a first round quarterback used to be double jeopardy - you'd lose the pick and take a colossal cap loss. That's not the case anymore with the rookie wage scale.
WFT moved on and improved at quarterback in the short term. What if we'd done the same? What if we'd traded Jones and signed Fitzpatrick? We'd be in a better spot - we'd have a better QB now and more draft assets in 2022...not to mention that Fitzpatrick would be a great fit for Garrett.
We've got to stop thinking about Jones as a long term franchise quarterback, and we should be open to improving upon him as soon as the opportunity arrives. The defense and coaching staff are good enough that the team could be in the playoffs with representative quarterback play.
I'm very much open to it. I posted a ton this past offseason that I'd be open to an upgrade if the Giants felt like spending the picks to move up was worth it. They instead decided to trade down. Lance was probably the only guy i'd consider it for (knowing who'd be gone at 1 and 2) but he went 3 so it really wasn't an option. So that leaves Fields and Mac Jones - Jones was always a hard no so it was essentially just Fields. They had every ability to take him and didn't. I'm ok with that because the capital we got could be enormous if Chicago sucks.
If Jones isn't good this year i'd happily move on then too. I'm not tied to him, I don't know him, I simply root for him to hopefully do well. So that's where I'm at, hoping he kicks ass, and if he doesn't, ready to move on.
Haskins showed nothing. Jones showed growth, toughness and leadership. He also played better over his final 8 games in 2020.
You're comparing apples to oranges.
That's where I've been this whole time, but I am deeply critical of the process that put us in this position to begin with. I think we're on the verge of throwing this season away and possibly putting Judge in a position where he's coaching for his job in 2022.
All because we didn't even try to get better at the game's most important position.
That's where I've been this whole time, but I am deeply critical of the process that put us in this position to begin with. I think we're on the verge of throwing this season away and possibly putting Judge in a position where he's coaching for his job in 2022.
All because we didn't even try to get better at the game's most important position.
Might as well just give up. All is lost.
Get over it dude. Time to accept it. We didn't just lose the draft rights to 1989 Joe Montana. Christ.
So “wasted season” can happen for many reasons, moving on from Jones this year doesn’t guarantee 2021 isn’t a waste.
Since we talk about the past all the time, why not mention that the answer would be Dave Brown, 1996. By 97 the Giants had gathered all their intel on Brown and had accepted things. They pretty much gave Brown 3-4 years. Probably 1-2 too many.
Since then, the Giants have been very patient with their QB. Collins in 99-2000 and then Eli. It worked. Now it's time for Jones. No benefit of the doubt I guess? Maybe they really truly believe in this guy? Maybe they are right?