He seems like a nice guy, clearly a hard worker that 3 different coaching staffs have vouched for, but he is beyond positive training camp reports at this point in my eyes.
In fact, I’d be surprised if we were getting negative practice reports on him. His problem is when the lights are on and the pressure is up. Can he not fumble? Can he not play tipsies when perfect balls are thrown his way? His tests will come when the games count. I hope for our team’s sake he is awesome but I’m not holding my breath.
and might have actually improved (lord knows there's room for it), but i don't think Engram will ever be more than below average at best when asked to block DL like a "traditional" TE.
AND HE SHOULDN'T BE ASKED TO!
His role as a blocker should be getting on LBs and Safeties downfield, where i think he's shown he can be way above average.
All said, the overwhelming majority of his use in this offense should be as a receiver. Don't overthink his role and he will produce!
to see couch All-Pros question a professional athlete's manhood. Or committment.
You should never question someone's manhood. Or Comittment.
But their performance on the field CAN be questioned. This is the NFL, you have to perform, or you should be cut. This is professional football, it shouldn't be for college red shirts. Potential does NOT cut it.
Engram has had FOUR years to show what he is. And we've seen it. Unless he's been touched by Lightning (The Natural), what we saw is what we're going to get, and that's not good enough to win in this league.
I am hearing Sinorice Moss is still looking good in practice too
Engram has had FOUR years to show what he is. And we've seen it. Unless he's been touched by Lightning (The Natural), what we saw is what we're going to get, and that's not good enough to win in this league.
People forget how long it took guys like Tiki Barber to find consistency in the NFL. Tiki didn't rush 1,000 yards until his 4th season. He then spent the 3 or 4 coughing the ball up an average of 9 times a season. He didn't make the Probowl until his 8th season. Amani Toomer took several seasons to develop too and didn't hit his stride until his 4th season.
These are world class professional athletes lining up every Sunday against other highly paid professional athletes. Not everyone fall into a perfect situation where they're mentally ready for the role they're asked to play and where the coaches know exactly how to deploy you. It takes time for these guys build skills on natural talent and become consistent.
It's not as simple as "Don't be a pussy". Half the guys opining on Engram's play here haven't ever played at a low level collegiate level. Let alone the pros. They haven't a clue of what they're watching.
I'll side with the third iteration of coaches who've spoken highly of Engram's work ethic and skill.
Engram has had FOUR years to show what he is. And we've seen it. Unless he's been touched by Lightning (The Natural), what we saw is what we're going to get, and that's not good enough to win in this league.
People forget how long it took guys like Tiki Barber to find consistency in the NFL. Tiki didn't rush 1,000 yards until his 4th season. He then spent the 3 or 4 coughing the ball up an average of 9 times a season. He didn't make the Probowl until his 8th season. Amani Toomer took several seasons to develop too and didn't hit his stride until his 4th season.
Ok, but this is Engram's 5th season, and he still has done next to nothing.
Engram has had FOUR years to show what he is. And we've seen it. Unless he's been touched by Lightning (The Natural), what we saw is what we're going to get, and that's not good enough to win in this league.
People forget how long it took guys like Tiki Barber to find consistency in the NFL. Tiki didn't rush 1,000 yards until his 4th season. He then spent the 3 or 4 coughing the ball up an average of 9 times a season. He didn't make the Probowl until his 8th season. Amani Toomer took several seasons to develop too and didn't hit his stride until his 4th season.
These are world class professional athletes lining up every Sunday against other highly paid professional athletes. Not everyone fall into a perfect situation where they're mentally ready for the role they're asked to play and where the coaches know exactly how to deploy you. It takes time for these guys build skills on natural talent and become consistent.
It's not as simple as "Don't be a pussy". Half the guys opining on Engram's play here haven't ever played at a low level collegiate level. Let alone the pros. They haven't a clue of what they're watching.
I'll side with the third iteration of coaches who've spoken highly of Engram's work ethic and skill.
People forget how long it took guys like Tiki Barber to find consistency in the NFL. Tiki didn't rush 1,000 yards until his 4th season. He then spent the 3 or 4 coughing the ball up an average of 9 times a season. He didn't make the Probowl until his 8th season. Amani Toomer took several seasons to develop too and didn't hit his stride until his 4th season.
Ok, but this is Engram's 5th season, and he still has done next to nothing.
Engram is heading into his 5th season and he's missed the equivalent of one entire season to injury (or nearly). All I'm saying is some guys are late bloomers.
Engram may be all he's ever going to be, or he might come into his own this season.
Well, I think we all hope he comes into his own this season. I just think the odds of it are slim. & Tiki was a much, much better pro @ this point in his career than Engram. The better comp would be Toomer.
Engram doesn't need to line up against anyone to fuck up. He's does that when he's wide open.
The whole "you're not a pro athlete, so you cannot be critical of a player" point has no purpose. That's even sub-BBI. Save that for a Facebook group or something.
Are you a pro athlete? Are you Engram? Good for you siding with a coach, because, ya, there is no possibility that they could ever be wrong or criticized. To hell with open discourse on a football message board.
Not sure what the point of bringing up Tiki and Toomer is. Tiki wasn't a starter on day one like Engram has been this entire time. Charles Way was carrying the rock in 1997 when Tiki got here lol
Again, we've seen Engram and what he can do (not do) so this whole idea that he's got untapped potential is asinine. We wouldn't see the Giants start losing when if the Giants moved on from him, they already are losing because of him. His mistakes are catastrophic. I've seen some weird posts before but the whole "defending Engram" angle is of the most foolish kind.
Maybe that softness to keep shitty players around for longer than they should be is why the Giants have sucked for the past almost 10 years? Just a theory.
And I hope he can have an Amani Toomer like ascension to his career. I remember Amani being a Summer star and fading in the regular season until he just sort of figured it out. Maybe we get lucky and EE does the same. I don't understand how people get so frustrated with him.
And I hope he can have an Amani Toomer like ascension to his career. I remember Amani being a Summer star and fading in the regular season until he just sort of figured it out. Maybe we get lucky and EE does the same. I don't understand how people get so frustrated with him.
Toomer didn't have the same role Engram did when he got here. Toomer early on was behind Hillard Calloway/ returned punts ...
Engram was supposedly the best guy on the field ... So I was told by BBI.
And I hope he can have an Amani Toomer like ascension to his career. I remember Amani being a Summer star and fading in the regular season until he just sort of figured it out. Maybe we get lucky and EE does the same. I don't understand how people get so frustrated with him.
Agree with this post until the very end. If you don’t understand why people get frustrated with him… you did not watch a game last year. If he catches the ball against Philadelphia we win the division. And he did that over, and over and over again.
And I hope he can have an Amani Toomer like ascension to his career. I remember Amani being a Summer star and fading in the regular season until he just sort of figured it out. Maybe we get lucky and EE does the same. I don't understand how people get so frustrated with him.
Agree with this post until the very end. If you don’t understand why people get frustrated with him… you did not watch a game last year. If he catches the ball against Philadelphia we win the division. And he did that over, and over and over again.
I guess I understand the frustration, I just don't feel it deserves name calling and questioning his manhood and things like that. He's doing his best it's not always perfect, I can live with that. It would be awesome if he morphed into Travis Kelce but as a fan I do not understand why there is so much hatred that feels personal towards a guy you have nothing to do with but watch. Everyone is entitled to their own feelings and opinions, I just don't really let any of it get to me personally. I grew up pretty poor and my parents were immigrants, we were taught pretty early what was truly important and it stuck with me. I'm going to root for him until he's not on our team anymore then I will root for the next guy.
Engram doesn't need to line up against anyone to fuck up. He's does that when he's wide open.
The whole "you're not a pro athlete, so you cannot be critical of a player" point has no purpose. That's even sub-BBI. Save that for a Facebook group or something.
Are you a pro athlete? Are you Engram? Good for you siding with a coach, because, ya, there is no possibility that they could ever be wrong or criticized. To hell with open discourse on a football message board.
Not sure what the point of bringing up Tiki and Toomer is. Tiki wasn't a starter on day one like Engram has been this entire time. Charles Way was carrying the rock in 1997 when Tiki got here lol
Again, we've seen Engram and what he can do (not do) so this whole idea that he's got untapped potential is asinine. We wouldn't see the Giants start losing when if the Giants moved on from him, they already are losing because of him. His mistakes are catastrophic. I've seen some weird posts before but the whole "defending Engram" angle is of the most foolish kind.
Maybe that softness to keep shitty players around for longer than they should be is why the Giants have sucked for the past almost 10 years? Just a theory.
I don’t think anyone is telling you to believe in him, the post above pointed out that some players bloom late which is a completely reasonable opinion to have with countless examples across the league of players who do just that. And fans thinking he has potential has nothing to do with Judge or Gettelman somehow being soft and the reason he’s been retained. In fact, saying he sucks a lot on a message board isn’t “hard” and also has no bearing on whether we keep him or not (clearly, otherwise he’d be gone by now).
Wouldn’t it be cool to root for the guy to find it and do well?
we are all disappointed in Engram's play. But that Joe Judge wants him to stay for at least another year should tell everyone that he sees something he likes. If it does not pan out, he will be let go for FA.
They have Rudolph and other options.
Uconn, not really sure where you're going with this (as usual) it isn't "hard" saying he sucks because he does suck, unless you're being a sexual weirdo? Ha. I joke, pal.
Sorry I have to be the correctional officer around here and lay down the law. Truth stings sometimes. I guess you guys are cupcake soft in this prison.
All kidding around aisde, he did pluck Tiki and Amani's first few years out of the sky. I mean fine, but two completely different positions and two different situations.
Tiki was a ... third down back fair to say? Amani was a punt returner and not a #1 wide receiver. Tiki returned punts, too. So they were special teams players at first trying to claw their way on the field. No problem with that.
Evan Engram was kind of different because he was given the responsibility as the number one tight end on the Giants depth chart.... from day one. Basically agreeing with the above mentioned comments about Engram and we've kind of seen what he could do.
Did Tiki play better because of offensive line improvement? I don't know, but Engram just flat out drops passes. That is his job ... to catch the ball.
because you want to make everything into a bigger issue than it is and have an argument. Have you ever tried speaking to someone cordially on this site? Let me guess, that would be soft?
I don't know who you were originally responding to but that doesn't even matter. The point is that Engram wouldn't be the first guy to find himself later in his career and he also wouldn't be the first to never find it (a very real possibility and one i'm not refuting). But there's a reason he's still here and I don't think its because the Giants are soft, that's a pure reach on your part. Gettelman has turned over half the roster the past couple of years so he's not afraid to cut bait and it completely debunks that theory.
I will be delighted if JJ’s faith in his talent pays off. I’m a Giants fan. They’re “family.”
Same. Depending on the trade offers i would have dealt him too but I understand why keeping him could be an attractive option. Its been a long time since Engram wasn't the #1 on offense - with all the additions + Barkley coming back he's basically the #4 now and presumably a big mismatch for whoever has to handle him. There will be less pressure on him as well.
Found it somewhat surprising he wasn't moved/released this past offseason. But maybe there were no interested parties for reasonable value, or Front Office didn't look at his salary as problematic.
Giants were in the mix on Hunter Henry early in free agency. So possible when that didn't happen and then after Rudolph's foot injury was discovered that Engram's $6M price tag became easier to swallow.
Judge supports him though, and does so publicly and often. Of course he wants the negative plays to decline, and if they do then Engram is at least worth it 2021. And if he picks up his game and shows more impact plays then maybe he is in the mix for more years with the team.
RE: I would have been delighted to see JJ part ways with him.
The Giants seem to be getting excellent position coaching vs. what they've been accustomed to under McAdoo & Shurmur (who had some of the worst overall staffs you'll ever see).
That's probably the biggest reason for the team's overall improvement. Maybe Engram's benefitting from better coaching. He seems to like grinding and the coach's seem to be impressed. What do they look for? Guys who improve.
Engram is a polarizing guy, but if you step back and look at his path to TE, it isn't too difficult to see how development could take some time.
He's a guy who wasn't used in the traditional TE role until he reached the NFL. He was moved outside and matched up against DB's frequently. He wasn't called on to block often. He was utilized more like a hybrid WR.
I think the staffs here have tried to work in that versatility, but maybe it has come at the expense of development - but we really don't know. What we do know is that Judge sees potential. And while he's been frustratingly inconsistent, he has produced some in the past. He has the record for most TD's by a rookie TE for the Giants and he did score in 4 consecutive games as a rookie.
It isn't too big a stretch to think that with consistent coaching, he can improve - he has the physical skills.
But here's what I don't understand - he's the TE here this year. That's not likely to change. Why wouldn't we want to see him do well. If he does well, there's a good chance the team will do well.
but I don't know if we can afford to give him a big contract next year.
But in my opinion, having that be a tough decision is only a good thing. It means that Engram did well. And if he does well, we have options. We can trade him or resign him.
If it is an easy decision to let him go, then he won't have done very well this year.
and Engram was involved in a pretty significant amount of those plays.
The guy is a weapon who has come up short at some really bad moments. Some players just shrug that stuff off like it's no big deal but it seems Engram takes those moments as incentive to to improve, to work harder. I also think he feels the same about blocking and that he is working hard to improve. He isn't very tall, 6'3" I think, and that may help him with leverage even though he is light.
Who knows what the final story on Engram will be, but the guy seems very dedicated to both the team and improving himself. He is easy for me to root for.
Uconn, not really sure where you're going with this (as usual) it isn't "hard" saying he sucks because he does suck, unless you're being a sexual weirdo? Ha. I joke, pal.
Sorry I have to be the correctional officer around here and lay down the law. Truth stings sometimes. I guess you guys are cupcake soft in this prison.
All kidding around aisde, he did pluck Tiki and Amani's first few years out of the sky. I mean fine, but two completely different positions and two different situations.
Tiki was a ... third down back fair to say? Amani was a punt returner and not a #1 wide receiver. Tiki returned punts, too. So they were special teams players at first trying to claw their way on the field. No problem with that.
Evan Engram was kind of different because he was given the responsibility as the number one tight end on the Giants depth chart.... from day one. Basically agreeing with the above mentioned comments about Engram and we've kind of seen what he could do.
Did Tiki play better because of offensive line improvement? I don't know, but Engram just flat out drops passes. That is his job ... to catch the ball.
If there were any inkling that you understood what you were watching, that's now evaporated.
Toomer was drafted to be a punt returner? Tiki was drafted to be a 3rd round back? Do you really believe professional football teams utilize premium draft selections (2nd round picks) on punt returners and 3rd down backs? They were each selected as WR and RB projects who contributed in other phases of the game. That's what projects need to do to keep their place on the team while they grow and develop.
Engram was drafted as a move-TE who never played in-line. TE is among the more difficult positons to learn as you not only need to refine route running, but you also need to learn blocking assignments. Engram went through 3 regimes and missed a season in between.
Yeah. He's made mistakes. More than a few. Young players make mistakes. You haven't scooped anything and you're not half as clever as you think you are.
You'd really have hated Jeremy Shockey, Kevin Boss et al. Member this? - ( New Window )
Shockey could block and was an animal after the catch when he was here. Boss was a good blocker and consistent route runner, so at least he could get open.
Engram is a nice X factor piece when you have some talent on offense. Fortunately, we have that again.
hasn't cut too many guys too soon or too late. Just saying.
There's really no incentive to cutting him right now. If we were going to move him it was pre-draft and we didn't. That tells me the offers were thin and/or they think he can make a difference this season. Also, if Rudolph goes down, then what?
You'd really have hated Jeremy Shockey, Kevin Boss et al. Member this? - ( New Window )
Engram is way worse. And I don't remember either of those guys tipping passes into defenders' hands anywhere near as much as Engram did last season alone. We won't even get into blocking.
He’s had his fair share of struggles and has had to take a lot of crap from all of us (deservedly) but he’s a really nice kid, the locker room loves him and the coaches rave about him. It appears to to be a mental thing with him. I hope he gets it worked out this year.
You'd really have hated Jeremy Shockey, Kevin Boss et al. Member this? - ( New Window )
Shockey could block and was an animal after the catch when he was here. Boss was a good blocker and consistent route runner, so at least he could get open.
Engram is a nice X factor piece when you have some talent on offense. Fortunately, we have that again.
In Kevin Boss's best season as a pass-catcher, he was targeted 69 times for 42 receptions and 567 yards. That's not bad for a 5th rounder, but he had the likes of Bradshaw and Jacobs out of the backfield and Nicks, Manningham and Smith on the outside. We couldn't get anyone open last season if they ran routes all day.
The two players are on different planets. One team was primed to make a title run, the other was in year ___ of a rebuild.
Your smoking gun is ... Jeremy Shockey ... and Kevin Boss now? I wasn't in love with Shockey, no, but I did not hate him. He was solid. Shockey was a superior player in comparison to Engram, though. Better YAC, better hands, better blocker. I liked his passion.
Boss had the Super Bowl catch that got the offense going in the beginning of the fourth quarter, so I'm going to hold him in much higher regard over anything Engram has done here. Again, Boss was a nice story. A more level headed 5th round pick who literally replaced the former. A bit different than a frustrating 1st rounder who didn't live up to my expectations.
Ya, I guess the language was a bit rough on this thread but this team has been pissing me off in the last 9 years. I get what you're saying that you could bring up any player that has put on a Giant jersey and their flaws could fill up a book but I agree with everyone else on here when they say ... we've seen what Engram could do.
Personally, I'm rooting for the guy to come up big for us. He just has to be used correctly and of course stop dropping the damn ball or batting it to defenders and such.
If he has improved his blocking, well, that is a bonus but I don't expect him to be a stud in that area.
the term "smoking gun" doesn't mean what you think it means. All I've suggested is that not all athletes develop at the same pace and for various reasons. Also, it's absurd for a grown-ass individual to pound away on an athlete they've never met, who by all accounts is a good team guy and hard worker on virtually a daily basis.
If Evan Engram was a dog or a bad guy off the field, then by all means, have at him. You're actively cheering for the guy to fail and have made him the scapegoat for the Giants futility. Grow up.
Read above about the langauge. I apologize from the depths of my soul and recognize my humble willingness to admit I was out of order. I must consider Engrams natural talents. He WILL be good.
And whatever oh, it's not like I haven't been right the last two or three seasons. I wouldn't have to listen to you on the Engram matter or anything. There's always one person such as yourself every single year claiming he's going to break out, it's going to be worth it, it's going to take time, he's got to be healthy and I've been right every single time. I'll just add you to the collection pile. I'm sorry the truth could sting so much and you feel the need to come to the rescue to defend people you don't know. Unless you are indeed his mother?
Then again, weren't you that same person who was all sensitive about Chrissy Teigen being showcased as the piece of shit that she is on that one thread? Yeah.
He seems like a nice guy, clearly a hard worker that 3 different coaching staffs have vouched for, but he is beyond positive training camp reports at this point in my eyes.
In fact, I’d be surprised if we were getting negative practice reports on him. His problem is when the lights are on and the pressure is up. Can he not fumble? Can he not play tipsies when perfect balls are thrown his way? His tests will come when the games count. I hope for our team’s sake he is awesome but I’m not holding my breath.
How many fumbles do you think Engram has in his career?
All of the above have made at least one pro-bowl. One is a HOF, and another is a borderline HOF.
Let's see ... Tony Gonzalez, Jason Witten, Waller, Engram?
Who is the borderline HOF?? Witten is going to the HOF.
Yep. Witten isn't in yet. Would "likely HOF" be more suitable?
For a guy who sucks and plays like a pussy, Engram's numbers sure aren't that far off in his first 4 years in the league when compared to the other 3. Particularly with the added context that he's had to learn 3 different systems and missed significant time to injury in years 2 and 3.
Shoo-in. Borderline sounds as if you're uncertain. He's within the top 5 of receptions all-time. Witten is one of the best players to play his position for years.
Also, you have to consider some of those Engram touchdowns were garbage points. I think 2018... who cares
Yeah. I got you. He could possibly be a future Tony Gonzalez because I won a BBI Game Show contest. He could also one day be Jason Witten, or he could ... not.
Yeah. I got you. He could possibly be a future Tony Gonzalez because I won a BBI Game Show contest. He could also one day be Jason Witten, or he could ... not.
If Engram puts up 75 rec, 900 yds, 12 ypc and 8 TDs. Still a joke?
Nope.
But if it comes with shitty blocking, the most dropped passes by a TE, several fumbles and/or deflections for picks and inability to run a pick-play without getting an Offensive Pass Interference penalty, then Yep.
If Engram puts up 75 rec, 900 yds, 12 ypc and 8 TDs. Still a joke?
Nope.
But if it comes with shitty blocking, the most dropped passes by a TE, several fumbles and/or deflections for picks and inability to run a pick-play without getting an Offensive Pass Interference penalty, then Yep.
I suspect he's going to have a pretty good year and the mob will still come out with pitchforks the first time he drops a pass. Some guys become whipping boys, deserving or not. And there's nothing a toxic fanbase likes more than to pile the failings of an entire organization onto the shoulders of a single player.
Hopefully Engram can reserve that with his play.
Evan Engram's career catch percentage is 60% which is pretty mediocre
And down right bad when you are pass catching specialist (because we are all aware how bad his blocking is).
Hopefully, that goes up as his target share goes down. It was 57% last year, due to increase of going to him contested. He's a nice weapon when there's other pieces around, but because of his inability to make contested or consistent catches, he's best of as 3rd option at most in the pass game. None of those other guys you listed fall under that.
RE: Evan Engram's career catch percentage is 60% which is pretty mediocre
And down right bad when you are pass catching specialist (because we are all aware how bad his blocking is).
Hopefully, that goes up as his target share goes down. It was 57% last year, due to increase of going to him contested. He's a nice weapon when there's other pieces around, but because of his inability to make contested or consistent catches, he's best of as 3rd option at most in the pass game. None of those other guys you listed fall under that.
If Engram puts up 75 rec, 900 yds, 12 ypc and 8 TDs. Still a joke?
Nope.
But if it comes with shitty blocking, the most dropped passes by a TE, several fumbles and/or deflections for picks and inability to run a pick-play without getting an Offensive Pass Interference penalty, then Yep.
I suspect he's going to have a pretty good year and the mob will still come out with pitchforks the first time he drops a pass. Some guys become whipping boys, deserving or not. And there's nothing a toxic fanbase likes more than to pile the failings of an entire organization onto the shoulders of a single player.
Hopefully Engram can reserve that with his play.
Agree on all points.
And you said it...if he deflects a ball that gets picked on opening day you won’t have to wait to hear the criticism on BBI. It will come in loud and clear thru your windows as the fan base curses him out across the country after that play...
I'll be the first one with my monocle on, wall decor that reads "Working nine to wine" behind me and a folded New York Times paper on my lap. Oh, the best for me, my family and friends who are always there for me when I need to switch my mood.
I'll curse to the highest level of risk, to compensate for all the non-cursing people of New Jersey.
Amen. He’s got the tools. Defenses still have to worry about his speed
So you're saying he had a few good blocks on Ryan and Ryan got frustrated and retaliated (after Engram stood up for Clement)?
I guess if it was Ryan on the receiving end of the blocks, that would help explain why Engram's looked good blocking!
One of my favorite skits.
In fact, I’d be surprised if we were getting negative practice reports on him. His problem is when the lights are on and the pressure is up. Can he not fumble? Can he not play tipsies when perfect balls are thrown his way? His tests will come when the games count. I hope for our team’s sake he is awesome but I’m not holding my breath.
I wish I could say the same for you. And your crew of flunkies.
Mic drop
Same boring jokes.
Same "upside" comments around Giants University.
Different coach, same bullshit.
Yawn. Engram should've been referenced in the past tense by the time 2019 rolled around.
Guy is trash, trash and trash.
AND HE SHOULDN'T BE ASKED TO!
His role as a blocker should be getting on LBs and Safeties downfield, where i think he's shown he can be way above average.
All said, the overwhelming majority of his use in this offense should be as a receiver. Don't overthink his role and he will produce!
i'll believe it when i see it
i'll believe it when i see it
Even this is way too optimistic
And then the season starts and somehow he looks embarrassing when asked to do it during the games...
Mommy is mad someone gave her son a bad grade. Juggling the office life and protecting your cubs, admirable.
You should never question someone's manhood. Or Comittment.
But their performance on the field CAN be questioned. This is the NFL, you have to perform, or you should be cut. This is professional football, it shouldn't be for college red shirts. Potential does NOT cut it.
Engram has had FOUR years to show what he is. And we've seen it. Unless he's been touched by Lightning (The Natural), what we saw is what we're going to get, and that's not good enough to win in this league.
People forget how long it took guys like Tiki Barber to find consistency in the NFL. Tiki didn't rush 1,000 yards until his 4th season. He then spent the 3 or 4 coughing the ball up an average of 9 times a season. He didn't make the Probowl until his 8th season. Amani Toomer took several seasons to develop too and didn't hit his stride until his 4th season.
These are world class professional athletes lining up every Sunday against other highly paid professional athletes. Not everyone fall into a perfect situation where they're mentally ready for the role they're asked to play and where the coaches know exactly how to deploy you. It takes time for these guys build skills on natural talent and become consistent.
It's not as simple as "Don't be a pussy". Half the guys opining on Engram's play here haven't ever played at a low level collegiate level. Let alone the pros. They haven't a clue of what they're watching.
I'll side with the third iteration of coaches who've spoken highly of Engram's work ethic and skill.
Engram has had FOUR years to show what he is. And we've seen it. Unless he's been touched by Lightning (The Natural), what we saw is what we're going to get, and that's not good enough to win in this league.
Agree. Engram should have been a farmer...
Ok, but this is Engram's 5th season, and he still has done next to nothing.
Quote:
Engram has had FOUR years to show what he is. And we've seen it. Unless he's been touched by Lightning (The Natural), what we saw is what we're going to get, and that's not good enough to win in this league.
People forget how long it took guys like Tiki Barber to find consistency in the NFL. Tiki didn't rush 1,000 yards until his 4th season. He then spent the 3 or 4 coughing the ball up an average of 9 times a season. He didn't make the Probowl until his 8th season. Amani Toomer took several seasons to develop too and didn't hit his stride until his 4th season.
These are world class professional athletes lining up every Sunday against other highly paid professional athletes. Not everyone fall into a perfect situation where they're mentally ready for the role they're asked to play and where the coaches know exactly how to deploy you. It takes time for these guys build skills on natural talent and become consistent.
It's not as simple as "Don't be a pussy". Half the guys opining on Engram's play here haven't ever played at a low level collegiate level. Let alone the pros. They haven't a clue of what they're watching.
I'll side with the third iteration of coaches who've spoken highly of Engram's work ethic and skill.
That s a good post👍
Quote:
People forget how long it took guys like Tiki Barber to find consistency in the NFL. Tiki didn't rush 1,000 yards until his 4th season. He then spent the 3 or 4 coughing the ball up an average of 9 times a season. He didn't make the Probowl until his 8th season. Amani Toomer took several seasons to develop too and didn't hit his stride until his 4th season.
Ok, but this is Engram's 5th season, and he still has done next to nothing.
Engram is heading into his 5th season and he's missed the equivalent of one entire season to injury (or nearly). All I'm saying is some guys are late bloomers.
Engram may be all he's ever going to be, or he might come into his own this season.
The whole "you're not a pro athlete, so you cannot be critical of a player" point has no purpose. That's even sub-BBI. Save that for a Facebook group or something.
Are you a pro athlete? Are you Engram? Good for you siding with a coach, because, ya, there is no possibility that they could ever be wrong or criticized. To hell with open discourse on a football message board.
Not sure what the point of bringing up Tiki and Toomer is. Tiki wasn't a starter on day one like Engram has been this entire time. Charles Way was carrying the rock in 1997 when Tiki got here lol
Again, we've seen Engram and what he can do (not do) so this whole idea that he's got untapped potential is asinine. We wouldn't see the Giants start losing when if the Giants moved on from him, they already are losing because of him. His mistakes are catastrophic. I've seen some weird posts before but the whole "defending Engram" angle is of the most foolish kind.
Maybe that softness to keep shitty players around for longer than they should be is why the Giants have sucked for the past almost 10 years? Just a theory.
Toomer didn't have the same role Engram did when he got here. Toomer early on was behind Hillard Calloway/ returned punts ...
Engram was supposedly the best guy on the field ... So I was told by BBI.
Agree with this post until the very end. If you don’t understand why people get frustrated with him… you did not watch a game last year. If he catches the ball against Philadelphia we win the division. And he did that over, and over and over again.
Quote:
And I hope he can have an Amani Toomer like ascension to his career. I remember Amani being a Summer star and fading in the regular season until he just sort of figured it out. Maybe we get lucky and EE does the same. I don't understand how people get so frustrated with him.
Agree with this post until the very end. If you don’t understand why people get frustrated with him… you did not watch a game last year. If he catches the ball against Philadelphia we win the division. And he did that over, and over and over again.
The whole "you're not a pro athlete, so you cannot be critical of a player" point has no purpose. That's even sub-BBI. Save that for a Facebook group or something.
Are you a pro athlete? Are you Engram? Good for you siding with a coach, because, ya, there is no possibility that they could ever be wrong or criticized. To hell with open discourse on a football message board.
Not sure what the point of bringing up Tiki and Toomer is. Tiki wasn't a starter on day one like Engram has been this entire time. Charles Way was carrying the rock in 1997 when Tiki got here lol
Again, we've seen Engram and what he can do (not do) so this whole idea that he's got untapped potential is asinine. We wouldn't see the Giants start losing when if the Giants moved on from him, they already are losing because of him. His mistakes are catastrophic. I've seen some weird posts before but the whole "defending Engram" angle is of the most foolish kind.
Maybe that softness to keep shitty players around for longer than they should be is why the Giants have sucked for the past almost 10 years? Just a theory.
I don’t think anyone is telling you to believe in him, the post above pointed out that some players bloom late which is a completely reasonable opinion to have with countless examples across the league of players who do just that. And fans thinking he has potential has nothing to do with Judge or Gettelman somehow being soft and the reason he’s been retained. In fact, saying he sucks a lot on a message board isn’t “hard” and also has no bearing on whether we keep him or not (clearly, otherwise he’d be gone by now).
Wouldn’t it be cool to root for the guy to find it and do well?
They have Rudolph and other options.
Sorry I have to be the correctional officer around here and lay down the law. Truth stings sometimes. I guess you guys are cupcake soft in this prison.
All kidding around aisde, he did pluck Tiki and Amani's first few years out of the sky. I mean fine, but two completely different positions and two different situations.
Tiki was a ... third down back fair to say? Amani was a punt returner and not a #1 wide receiver. Tiki returned punts, too. So they were special teams players at first trying to claw their way on the field. No problem with that.
Evan Engram was kind of different because he was given the responsibility as the number one tight end on the Giants depth chart.... from day one. Basically agreeing with the above mentioned comments about Engram and we've kind of seen what he could do.
Did Tiki play better because of offensive line improvement? I don't know, but Engram just flat out drops passes. That is his job ... to catch the ball.
I don't know who you were originally responding to but that doesn't even matter. The point is that Engram wouldn't be the first guy to find himself later in his career and he also wouldn't be the first to never find it (a very real possibility and one i'm not refuting). But there's a reason he's still here and I don't think its because the Giants are soft, that's a pure reach on your part. Gettelman has turned over half the roster the past couple of years so he's not afraid to cut bait and it completely debunks that theory.
Same. Depending on the trade offers i would have dealt him too but I understand why keeping him could be an attractive option. Its been a long time since Engram wasn't the #1 on offense - with all the additions + Barkley coming back he's basically the #4 now and presumably a big mismatch for whoever has to handle him. There will be less pressure on him as well.
Giants were in the mix on Hunter Henry early in free agency. So possible when that didn't happen and then after Rudolph's foot injury was discovered that Engram's $6M price tag became easier to swallow.
Judge supports him though, and does so publicly and often. Of course he wants the negative plays to decline, and if they do then Engram is at least worth it 2021. And if he picks up his game and shows more impact plays then maybe he is in the mix for more years with the team.
That's probably the biggest reason for the team's overall improvement. Maybe Engram's benefitting from better coaching. He seems to like grinding and the coach's seem to be impressed. What do they look for? Guys who improve.
He's a guy who wasn't used in the traditional TE role until he reached the NFL. He was moved outside and matched up against DB's frequently. He wasn't called on to block often. He was utilized more like a hybrid WR.
I think the staffs here have tried to work in that versatility, but maybe it has come at the expense of development - but we really don't know. What we do know is that Judge sees potential. And while he's been frustratingly inconsistent, he has produced some in the past. He has the record for most TD's by a rookie TE for the Giants and he did score in 4 consecutive games as a rookie.
It isn't too big a stretch to think that with consistent coaching, he can improve - he has the physical skills.
But here's what I don't understand - he's the TE here this year. That's not likely to change. Why wouldn't we want to see him do well. If he does well, there's a good chance the team will do well.
But in my opinion, having that be a tough decision is only a good thing. It means that Engram did well. And if he does well, we have options. We can trade him or resign him.
If it is an easy decision to let him go, then he won't have done very well this year.
The guy is a weapon who has come up short at some really bad moments. Some players just shrug that stuff off like it's no big deal but it seems Engram takes those moments as incentive to to improve, to work harder. I also think he feels the same about blocking and that he is working hard to improve. He isn't very tall, 6'3" I think, and that may help him with leverage even though he is light.
Who knows what the final story on Engram will be, but the guy seems very dedicated to both the team and improving himself. He is easy for me to root for.
Sorry I have to be the correctional officer around here and lay down the law. Truth stings sometimes. I guess you guys are cupcake soft in this prison.
All kidding around aisde, he did pluck Tiki and Amani's first few years out of the sky. I mean fine, but two completely different positions and two different situations.
Tiki was a ... third down back fair to say? Amani was a punt returner and not a #1 wide receiver. Tiki returned punts, too. So they were special teams players at first trying to claw their way on the field. No problem with that.
Evan Engram was kind of different because he was given the responsibility as the number one tight end on the Giants depth chart.... from day one. Basically agreeing with the above mentioned comments about Engram and we've kind of seen what he could do.
Did Tiki play better because of offensive line improvement? I don't know, but Engram just flat out drops passes. That is his job ... to catch the ball.
If there were any inkling that you understood what you were watching, that's now evaporated.
Toomer was drafted to be a punt returner? Tiki was drafted to be a 3rd round back? Do you really believe professional football teams utilize premium draft selections (2nd round picks) on punt returners and 3rd down backs? They were each selected as WR and RB projects who contributed in other phases of the game. That's what projects need to do to keep their place on the team while they grow and develop.
Engram was drafted as a move-TE who never played in-line. TE is among the more difficult positons to learn as you not only need to refine route running, but you also need to learn blocking assignments. Engram went through 3 regimes and missed a season in between.
Yeah. He's made mistakes. More than a few. Young players make mistakes. You haven't scooped anything and you're not half as clever as you think you are.
Member this? - ( New Window )
Shockey could block and was an animal after the catch when he was here. Boss was a good blocker and consistent route runner, so at least he could get open.
Engram is a nice X factor piece when you have some talent on offense. Fortunately, we have that again.
There's really no incentive to cutting him right now. If we were going to move him it was pre-draft and we didn't. That tells me the offers were thin and/or they think he can make a difference this season. Also, if Rudolph goes down, then what?
Engram is way worse. And I don't remember either of those guys tipping passes into defenders' hands anywhere near as much as Engram did last season alone. We won't even get into blocking.
Quote:
You'd really have hated Jeremy Shockey, Kevin Boss et al. Member this? - ( New Window )
Shockey could block and was an animal after the catch when he was here. Boss was a good blocker and consistent route runner, so at least he could get open.
Engram is a nice X factor piece when you have some talent on offense. Fortunately, we have that again.
In Kevin Boss's best season as a pass-catcher, he was targeted 69 times for 42 receptions and 567 yards. That's not bad for a 5th rounder, but he had the likes of Bradshaw and Jacobs out of the backfield and Nicks, Manningham and Smith on the outside. We couldn't get anyone open last season if they ran routes all day.
The two players are on different planets. One team was primed to make a title run, the other was in year ___ of a rebuild.
Odds are increasing Engram could just retire...
Boss had the Super Bowl catch that got the offense going in the beginning of the fourth quarter, so I'm going to hold him in much higher regard over anything Engram has done here. Again, Boss was a nice story. A more level headed 5th round pick who literally replaced the former. A bit different than a frustrating 1st rounder who didn't live up to my expectations.
Ya, I guess the language was a bit rough on this thread but this team has been pissing me off in the last 9 years. I get what you're saying that you could bring up any player that has put on a Giant jersey and their flaws could fill up a book but I agree with everyone else on here when they say ... we've seen what Engram could do.
Funny thing here? I want you to be right.
If he has improved his blocking, well, that is a bonus but I don't expect him to be a stud in that area.
Hey, if he went 70-850-7 we'd all be ecstatic.
If Evan Engram was a dog or a bad guy off the field, then by all means, have at him. You're actively cheering for the guy to fail and have made him the scapegoat for the Giants futility. Grow up.
And whatever oh, it's not like I haven't been right the last two or three seasons. I wouldn't have to listen to you on the Engram matter or anything. There's always one person such as yourself every single year claiming he's going to break out, it's going to be worth it, it's going to take time, he's got to be healthy and I've been right every single time. I'll just add you to the collection pile. I'm sorry the truth could sting so much and you feel the need to come to the rescue to defend people you don't know. Unless you are indeed his mother?
Then again, weren't you that same person who was all sensitive about Chrissy Teigen being showcased as the piece of shit that she is on that one thread? Yeah.
We'll see this season. Even if Engram flops again, we can revisit the trading room floor this time, next year.
In fact, I’d be surprised if we were getting negative practice reports on him. His problem is when the lights are on and the pressure is up. Can he not fumble? Can he not play tipsies when perfect balls are thrown his way? His tests will come when the games count. I hope for our team’s sake he is awesome but I’m not holding my breath.
How many fumbles do you think Engram has in his career?
TE#1:
Year 1 - 33 catches, 368 yds, 11.2 ypr, 2 TDs
Year 2 - 59 catches, 621 yds, 10.5 ypr, 2 TDs (3 Fumbles
Year 3 - 76 catches, 849 yds, 11.2 ypr, 11 TDS (2 Fumbles)
Year 4 - 93 catches, 1203 yds, 12.9 ypr, 9 TDs
TE#2:
Year 1 - 35 catches, 347 yds, 9.9 ypr, 1 TD
Year 2 - 87 catches, 980 yds, 11.3 ypr, 6 TDs (2 Fumbles)
Year 3 - 66 catches, 757 yds, 11.5 ypr, 6 TDs
Year 4 - 64 catches, 754 yds, 11.8 ypr, 1 TD
TE#3:
Year 1 - 2 catches, 18 yds, 9 ypc, 0 TDs
Year 2 - 10 catches, 85 yds, 8.5 ypc, 2 TDs
Year 3 - 6 catches, 75 yds, 12.5 ypc, 0 TDs
Year 4 - 90 catchs, 1145 yds, 12.7 ypc, 3 TDs
TE#4:
Year 1 - 64 catches, 722 yds, 11.3 ypr, 6 TDs
Year 2 - 45 catches, 577 yds, 12.8 ypc, 3 TDs
Year 3 - 44 catches, 467 yds, 10.6 ypc, 3 TDs
Year 4 - 63 catches, 654 yds, 10.4 ypc, 1 TD (1 Fumble)
Quote:
I recall you embarrassing yourself quite thoroughly on that thread as well. Appears to be a trend for you.
We'll see this season. Even if Engram flops again, we can revisit the trading room floor this time, next year.
Don't you dare besmirch the great name of Evan Engram and his great performance here! Don't you know he is one the best TE's in franchise history?
(Some of the shit you read here is hilarious)
Let's see ... Tony Gonzalez, Jason Witten, Waller, Engram?
Who is the borderline HOF?? Witten is going to the HOF.
Quote:
All of the above have made at least one pro-bowl. One is a HOF, and another is a borderline HOF.
Let's see ... Tony Gonzalez, Jason Witten, Waller, Engram?
Who is the borderline HOF?? Witten is going to the HOF.
Yep. Witten isn't in yet. Would "likely HOF" be more suitable?
For a guy who sucks and plays like a pussy, Engram's numbers sure aren't that far off in his first 4 years in the league when compared to the other 3. Particularly with the added context that he's had to learn 3 different systems and missed significant time to injury in years 2 and 3.
Also, you have to consider some of those Engram touchdowns were garbage points. I think 2018... who cares
Yeah. I got you. He could possibly be a future Tony Gonzalez because I won a BBI Game Show contest. He could also one day be Jason Witten, or he could ... not.
Yeah. I got you. He could possibly be a future Tony Gonzalez because I won a BBI Game Show contest. He could also one day be Jason Witten, or he could ... not.
I'll take it. Now shake on it...
If Engram puts up 75 rec, 900 yds, 12 ypc and 8 TDs. Still a joke?
Quote:
What a joke. Kind of reminds me of...
If Engram puts up 75 rec, 900 yds, 12 ypc and 8 TDs. Still a joke?
Nope.
But if it comes with shitty blocking, the most dropped passes by a TE, several fumbles and/or deflections for picks and inability to run a pick-play without getting an Offensive Pass Interference penalty, then Yep.
Quote:
In comment 15323882 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
What a joke. Kind of reminds me of...
If Engram puts up 75 rec, 900 yds, 12 ypc and 8 TDs. Still a joke?
Nope.
But if it comes with shitty blocking, the most dropped passes by a TE, several fumbles and/or deflections for picks and inability to run a pick-play without getting an Offensive Pass Interference penalty, then Yep.
I suspect he's going to have a pretty good year and the mob will still come out with pitchforks the first time he drops a pass. Some guys become whipping boys, deserving or not. And there's nothing a toxic fanbase likes more than to pile the failings of an entire organization onto the shoulders of a single player.
Hopefully Engram can reserve that with his play.
Hopefully, that goes up as his target share goes down. It was 57% last year, due to increase of going to him contested. He's a nice weapon when there's other pieces around, but because of his inability to make contested or consistent catches, he's best of as 3rd option at most in the pass game. None of those other guys you listed fall under that.
Hopefully, that goes up as his target share goes down. It was 57% last year, due to increase of going to him contested. He's a nice weapon when there's other pieces around, but because of his inability to make contested or consistent catches, he's best of as 3rd option at most in the pass game. None of those other guys you listed fall under that.
You're being toxic. Sooo much to unpack here.
Quote:
In comment 15323890 PwndPapi said:
Quote:
In comment 15323882 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
What a joke. Kind of reminds me of...
If Engram puts up 75 rec, 900 yds, 12 ypc and 8 TDs. Still a joke?
Nope.
But if it comes with shitty blocking, the most dropped passes by a TE, several fumbles and/or deflections for picks and inability to run a pick-play without getting an Offensive Pass Interference penalty, then Yep.
I suspect he's going to have a pretty good year and the mob will still come out with pitchforks the first time he drops a pass. Some guys become whipping boys, deserving or not. And there's nothing a toxic fanbase likes more than to pile the failings of an entire organization onto the shoulders of a single player.
Hopefully Engram can reserve that with his play.
Agree on all points.
And you said it...if he deflects a ball that gets picked on opening day you won’t have to wait to hear the criticism on BBI. It will come in loud and clear thru your windows as the fan base curses him out across the country after that play...
I'll curse to the highest level of risk, to compensate for all the non-cursing people of New Jersey.
Dracula laugh for my grandfather.