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@TomRock_Newsday Giants are going to run out of gold watches. Another vet has retired. This time it’s OL Zach Fulton, who informed the team of his decision last night. Fulton joins Todd Davis, Joe Looney and Kelvin Benjamin as guys who have hung ‘em up so far this training camp. |
No question the Giants were a better team last year, but coaches being universally hated is not a recipe for success. Coughlin wasn't winning here until he softened up a bit and the team won the Super bowl THAT YEAR.
Holy crap, those must be some seriously worn down pearls you're clutching
I kid, I kid.
The real problem with the Looney and Fulton retirements are depth.
There is no smoke, just vets who are either unprepared or unmotivated to do it one more time.
Yep, but not surprised by the reaction of some, it seems to be the MO of quite a few posters.
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when is it time to ask hard questions about Judge and his style? Between the retirements, Robert Saleh's answer to the question about running laps, Benjamin's comments on his way out, Kenny Wiggins comments about the punishment and being used to it since he played for Matt Patricia (who was notoriously hated by the players and subsequently fired)...there's a lot a smoke here.
No question the Giants were a better team last year, but coaches being universally hated is not a recipe for success. Coughlin wasn't winning here until he softened up a bit and the team won the Super bowl THAT YEAR.
Holy crap, those must be some seriously worn down pearls you're clutching
Looking at a situation objectively and asking when we should start asking questions is pearl-clutching? Haha, ok
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In comment 15324243 BigBlueFootball44 said:
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when is it time to ask hard questions about Judge and his style? Between the retirements, Robert Saleh's answer to the question about running laps, Benjamin's comments on his way out, Kenny Wiggins comments about the punishment and being used to it since he played for Matt Patricia (who was notoriously hated by the players and subsequently fired)...there's a lot a smoke here.
No question the Giants were a better team last year, but coaches being universally hated is not a recipe for success. Coughlin wasn't winning here until he softened up a bit and the team won the Super bowl THAT YEAR.
Holy crap, those must be some seriously worn down pearls you're clutching
Looking at a situation objectively and asking when we should start asking questions is pearl-clutching? Haha, ok
Has anyone signed any of these players that left? Has anyone even worked them out? NO they haven't, so the only point you can make from all of that is they wanted to retire instead of putting their body through the grind of a training camp or in Benjamin's case not adhering to the requirements he was given. And the best part to all of it is that they got weeded out early.
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In comment 15324508 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15324243 BigBlueFootball44 said:
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when is it time to ask hard questions about Judge and his style? Between the retirements, Robert Saleh's answer to the question about running laps, Benjamin's comments on his way out, Kenny Wiggins comments about the punishment and being used to it since he played for Matt Patricia (who was notoriously hated by the players and subsequently fired)...there's a lot a smoke here.
No question the Giants were a better team last year, but coaches being universally hated is not a recipe for success. Coughlin wasn't winning here until he softened up a bit and the team won the Super bowl THAT YEAR.
Holy crap, those must be some seriously worn down pearls you're clutching
Looking at a situation objectively and asking when we should start asking questions is pearl-clutching? Haha, ok
Yes indeed it is. It's ridiculous speculation on your part with zero facts other than three vets who were at best depth and an entitled bust of a player retired.
Has anyone signed any of these players that left? Has anyone even worked them out? NO they haven't, so the only point you can make from all of that is they wanted to retire instead of putting their body through the grind of a training camp or in Benjamin's case not adhering to the requirements he was given. And the best part to all of it is that they got weeded out early.
So the proof that there's nothing here is that no one has signed or worked out 4 players who RETIRED?
I presented facts. 1) 4 players retired 2) one had a lot of say on his way out 3) another NFL head coach was asked about these punishments and chose to comment, saying, in essence, that he doesn't do that and treats players like professionals 4) a player on the Giants now likened the experience to playing for Matt Patricia, who was a disaster.
Those things may be indicators of a larger problem, or they may not be. Hence the question posed in a message board designed to ask questions and provoke discussion - when is it time to ask hard questions?
How about after they play some football games?
What's more interesting is that a guy like Jon Gruden isn't getting held to the fire and he's had 3 players retire AND 2 executives. You know why? Because it is happening league-wide. From what I have seen so far, at least three teams have had 3 or more players retire and 5 teams have had two retire.
In a normal year between camp and the first week of the season between 75-100 players will retire. Not sure how that number will differ this year, but right there is your 3 players per team.
Our depth along the O-line is right back where we started: in the pits.
Our depth along the O-line is right back where we started: in the pits.
But outside of Fulton, what changed from a month ago??
Looney just signed with us a nd retired and the other guy who retired wasn't a lineman. Losing a 3rd stringer and a guy signed 8 days ago is a big blow to depth?? Both of them can be replaced.
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Our depth along the O-line is right back where we started: in the pits.
But outside of Fulton, what changed from a month ago??
Looney just signed with us a nd retired and the other guy who retired wasn't a lineman. Losing a 3rd stringer and a guy signed 8 days ago is a big blow to depth?? Both of them can be replaced.
So, are we to conclude that — before these veteran signings— our O-Line depth was really thin, and these signings really didn’t do much to help?
Fulton was playing as the third-string guy. Probably contributed to his decision. Looney was signed last week.
Fulton was playing as the third-string guy. Probably contributed to his decision. Looney was signed last week.
As much as I wish otherwise, it’s hard not to conclude we are facing another season with very thin depth. Not to mention we lost our starting RG from last season and didn’t really add any significant new talent in either free agency nor the Draft.
His idea of football and how it should be played is the closest thing I've seen since the mid 80's glory days that were the best of times for me as a Giants fan. That is not taking anything away from the Coughlin/Eli years which produced 2 Super Bowl wins and probably 3 HOFers when those guys join Strahan.
But we should know better than to assume this means that Wiggins or Heggie are playing at the levels of a non-liability NFL starter.
Fulton was only going to matter if he came in an overachieved so that looks like it was off the table regardless.
I don't know how anyone could be unconcerned about our OL going into this season though. If we have a losing record we are looking at that as the most likely culprit at this point by far
What's more interesting is that a guy like Jon Gruden isn't getting held to the fire and he's had 3 players retire AND 2 executives. You know why? Because it is happening league-wide. From what I have seen so far, at least three teams have had 3 or more players retire and 5 teams have had two retire.
In a normal year between camp and the first week of the season between 75-100 players will retire. Not sure how that number will differ this year, but right there is your 3 players per team.
There's retiring after you've been released, and there's retiring while you still have a potential shot to make the team.
I haven't seen any good evidence that this relates at all to Judge, but what we're seeing here is pretty atypical.
lol
There doesn’t need to be a conspiratorial connection with Judge, or Covid, or pro personnel staff, to make this a suboptimal outcome.
The Giants are counting on Lemieux, who had some real rough patches last year, Peart, who logged 150 snaps, and Hernandez who hasn’t played very good football since 2019.
The Giants are an injury away from Kenny Wiggins as a starter.
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In comment 15324546 BigBlueFootball44 said:
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In comment 15324508 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15324243 BigBlueFootball44 said:
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when is it time to ask hard questions about Judge and his style? Between the retirements, Robert Saleh's answer to the question about running laps, Benjamin's comments on his way out, Kenny Wiggins comments about the punishment and being used to it since he played for Matt Patricia (who was notoriously hated by the players and subsequently fired)...there's a lot a smoke here.
No question the Giants were a better team last year, but coaches being universally hated is not a recipe for success. Coughlin wasn't winning here until he softened up a bit and the team won the Super bowl THAT YEAR.
Holy crap, those must be some seriously worn down pearls you're clutching
Looking at a situation objectively and asking when we should start asking questions is pearl-clutching? Haha, ok
Yes indeed it is. It's ridiculous speculation on your part with zero facts other than three vets who were at best depth and an entitled bust of a player retired.
Has anyone signed any of these players that left? Has anyone even worked them out? NO they haven't, so the only point you can make from all of that is they wanted to retire instead of putting their body through the grind of a training camp or in Benjamin's case not adhering to the requirements he was given. And the best part to all of it is that they got weeded out early.
So the proof that there's nothing here is that no one has signed or worked out 4 players who RETIRED?
I presented facts. 1) 4 players retired 2) one had a lot of say on his way out 3) another NFL head coach was asked about these punishments and chose to comment, saying, in essence, that he doesn't do that and treats players like professionals 4) a player on the Giants now likened the experience to playing for Matt Patricia, who was a disaster.
Those things may be indicators of a larger problem, or they may not be. Hence the question posed in a message board designed to ask questions and provoke discussion - when is it time to ask hard questions?
Why is this hard to understand? If the players left because of Judge (which by the way three of them praised him, the one who didn't was never going to make this team when he showed up 17 pounds overweight and an attitude) that wouldn't it make sense that instead of retiring they sign with another team? If the reason is that Judge is too tough or he used bad language then would it not make sense that they would still want to play for a different team and not leave football for good?
You are forgetting the part about our QB being one of the most turnover prone QBs in league history :)
The comments against the conditioning drills, whether they are team participation of "punitive", like the unnamed NFL executive, are they saying we DO NOT want a team with superior conditioning? That the players will develop that on their own?
I would say, conditioning is CRITICAL and whether it is scheduled drills in practice or being made to jog a couple of laps or knock out a few pushups from your heavily muscled and toned body, SO WHAT? You want a team in the 4th quarter energetically bullying around the other team who is winded and leaning over hands on knees.
Shep said there wasn't much emphasis on conditioning in the last two coaching go arounds... you mean when OUR guys were the winded gasping ones?
Judge is trying to improve everything. If someone quits because training camp is too hard (not saying Fulton did that) then that actually improves the team and is a good thing.
Now we just need to shore up this depth issue which I am kind of worried about.
The comments against the conditioning drills, whether they are team participation of "punitive", like the unnamed NFL executive, are they saying we DO NOT want a team with superior conditioning? That the players will develop that on their own?
Zooming in on conditioning is a huge oversimplification. Culture is an important thing and while Judge looks to have some potential creating a good culture DG was wildly at it. And the Giants haven't been good at it for a while.
Too much is made about team leaders supporting the coach, that's a big nothing burger RE: Judge it says more about them as leaders themselves TBH. It's way more of a, if they don't say this it's a problem kind of thing. And I do like Ryan and Shep in that capacity. It's a nothing burger for now before we actually know if this culture could be turned into a winning program. And even great coaches have failed failed without the right larger structure around them so the idea that Judge can do everything and be everything is not the best on on it's face.
Exactly. The Giants have frail depth at the interior line positions.
The Giants are an injury away from Kenny Wiggins as a starter.
Every team in the league is a snap away from "Kenny Wiggens". ...offensive lines suck!!! Look at what the Chiefs showed up with at the Superbowl. Baseball...Bullpen. Football...O-line. If they can recognize and win or lose in actual assignment, it will be a huge leap ahead. Offensive lines need, mostly, to eliminate lapses.
Do other offenses seem completely hamstrung by this year after year? A few but I see the Chiefs mentioned a lot as a team with a bad Oline and it's like fine, you can think that. But their offense as a whole looks real good.
I don't care if the team is missing blocks left and right if we are putting points up.
This "olines are bad" thing is a complete non-sequester to the relevance of this discussion. And is just another excuse for the excuse pile
There are edge case entirely novel organizational structures in the world but percentage wise...not many.
I think there are different kinds of business models, different stages of competition in every industry and different kinds of work that predominate in some organizations. Some fit X and some fit Y ( or their flavor of the month repositioned names).
Generally, if creativity is a differentiator for a department or whole organization, you will find similar patterns and practices all around the world. Where there are very few differentiators between competitors then structures that pull or push execution are found.
For example, GAAP Accounting and similar enterprise systems leaves us finding that often effective accounting department management practices are similar.
From my observations, the frequency of similar approaches per differentiated functions or growth stages or industries has held steady since the installation of client server IT and if relevant, internet based functions or businesses.
In my observation, A very good leader can get results using variations from either theoretical point of view regardless of the logical and common practices found elsewhere in their industry.
The comments against the conditioning drills, whether they are team participation of "punitive", like the unnamed NFL executive, are they saying we DO NOT want a team with superior conditioning? That the players will develop that on their own?
I would say, conditioning is CRITICAL and whether it is scheduled drills in practice or being made to jog a couple of laps or knock out a few pushups from your heavily muscled and toned body, SO WHAT? You want a team in the 4th quarter energetically bullying around the other team who is winded and leaning over hands on knees.
Shep said there wasn't much emphasis on conditioning in the last two coaching go arounds... you mean when OUR guys were the winded gasping ones?
Judge is trying to improve everything. If someone quits because training camp is too hard (not saying Fulton did that) then that actually improves the team and is a good thing.
Now we just need to shore up this depth issue which I am kind of worried about.
Good post D HOS
There are edge case entirely novel organizational structures in the world but percentage wise...not many.
I think there are different kinds of business models, different stages of competition in every industry and different kinds of work that predominate in some organizations. Some fit X and some fit Y ( or their flavor of the month repositioned names).
Generally, if creativity is a differentiator for a department or whole organization, you will find similar patterns and practices all around the world. Where there are very few differentiators between competitors then structures that pull or push execution are found.
For example, GAAP Accounting and similar enterprise systems leaves us finding that often effective accounting department management practices are similar.
From my observations, the frequency of similar approaches per differentiated functions or growth stages or industries has held steady since the installation of client server IT and if relevant, internet based functions or businesses.
In my observation, A very good leader can get results using variations from either theoretical point of view regardless of the logical and common practices found elsewhere in their industry.
Well said, someone is drinking too much of the tech koolaid, which has turned into a massive circlejerk. Pretty nauseating when you are a part of it tbh. Same shit wrapped in a different package.
The Giants were in the market for interior line depth midway and in the late stages of free agency. The players they sought out don’t want to play any longer.
Are these tragedies? Of course not. Does it mean the next group available in the market grade lower? Likely.
I don’t think the Zach Fultons of the world are the types of players who make up playoff contenders. The shelf below the Zach Fultons. Woof.
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Which is that we have a starting OL with no track record and rapidly evaporating veteran presence behind it.
Exactly. The Giants have frail depth at the interior line positions.
When he was signed a whole lot of people were wringing their hands because he was the worst OL in the league. Now, he retires and people are wringing their hands. There isn't a guy on the roster now that can't be better than worst in the league?
This has nothing to do with Judge.
Go back to watching the Bachelorette
When he was signed a whole lot of people were wringing their hands because he was the worst OL in the league. Now, he retires and people are wringing their hands. There isn't a guy on the roster now that can't be better than worst in the league?
He was very bad — that was obvious to anyone who had watched a Texans game. Are there worse players barely hanging on in the league? Of course.
The Giants went to the open market and signed the best guys who met their budget and had mutual interest. They signed two guys, and they both retired.
What are the chances the next guy they go sign is graded higher?
Wiggins was already beating out Fulton.
Where losing Fulton will hurt is if Wiggins gets hurt.
These are all symptoms of the same problem — the Giants primary backup lineman are a quite bad 33 year old journeyman in Wiggins and a 33 year old Solder who was also awful his last time out.
As lackluster as Fulton and Looney have been, many of us feel they were better last year than Wiggins.
It’s a bad development these players didn’t have enough left in the tank, because they recently showcased moderately more talent.
Having said that, you can't use the fact that they are not signing elsewhere as evidence that they wouldn't if given the opportunity. They aren't free agents, they were under contract and unless I'm very mistaken retirement doesn't make them free agents.
This is a big season for Jones, a big season for Barkley, and this season probably makes or breaks Gettleman’s job as GM. On paper there’s no reason the Giants shouldn’t be in the mix for the division title.
If that leap of faith doesn’t work out at guard, the next guy up is Kenny Wiggins, a guy who logged literally 1 snap last year. Yikes. I wish they had a better backup plan. I hope they sign someone better.
Looney and Fulton didn’t take the call, fly to Jersey, work out, and sign a contract expecting to tap out. They both seemingly got on the field and realized they were out of gas. That’s a disappointment.
No question the Giants were a better team last year, but coaches being universally hated is not a recipe for success. Coughlin wasn't winning here until he softened up a bit and the team won the Super bowl THAT YEAR.
The comparison you are making is lunacy. Before Coughlin came some of those players were used to winning in prior years.
This is completely different.