The QB was poor. The OL was poor. The skill position players were poor. The scheme was poor.
My first question after 2020 was "Why are we bringing back Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones after they combined to put together one of the worst Giant offenses in recent memory?"
Still don't have a good answer to that question. Still don't know why we should expect them to be good in 2021. Just... because?
The QB was poor. The OL was poor. The skill position players were poor. The scheme was poor.
My first question after 2020 was "Why are we bringing back Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones after they combined to put together one of the worst Giant offenses in recent memory?"
Still don't have a good answer to that question. Still don't know why we should expect them to be good in 2021. Just... because?
Well, Mara obviously thought there was a talent issue. The strategy was to be aggressive in FA/draft to try and improve the offensive talent. Golladay, Toney, Rudolph & the return of Barkley is why Gettleman/Garrett are getting another swing at this. As for the OL, it was an emphasis on coaching with Sale & Flaherty brought in.
There is a lot of risk with the above, but that is what the Giants are banking on. I don’t think Garrett has a long leash, and I think Jones is out after the season with a subpar season.
On another note, Duggan wrote a great article in the athletic today about Judge learning from Belichick. As part of the training, there was a lot of emphasis on team building. Golladay scares me because of his injury history, we’ll see.
All to say, the Giants weren’t sitting on their hands just hoping the offense improves. A lot of resources have been put into it with skill players and hopefully improved coaching on the OL.
Because Jones has a good chance to get better with more experience
The QB was poor. The OL was poor. The skill position players were poor. The scheme was poor.
My first question after 2020 was "Why are we bringing back Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones after they combined to put together one of the worst Giant offenses in recent memory?"
Still don't have a good answer to that question. Still don't know why we should expect them to be good in 2021. Just... because?
Gettleman puzzles me. Jones was brought back because they were not in a position to land someone demonstrably better in the short term. Why draft a QB who is not an improvement now versus potentially getting an improvement later and having this year’s first to add talent around whomever is the QB? If you take a QB at #11 you are definitely foregoing anyone in 2022 and likely foregoing in 2023. When they decided that there was nobody worth taking over Jones they brought back Garrett so Jones would have some continuity. That being said, with the move of Kitchens I think Garrett is on a short leash.
The QB was poor. The OL was poor. The skill position players were poor. The scheme was poor.
My first question after 2020 was "Why are we bringing back Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones after they combined to put together one of the worst Giant offenses in recent memory?"
Still don't have a good answer to that question. Still don't know why we should expect them to be good in 2021. Just... because?
Not a big fan of yours, but I can't disagree here. He's botched 3 top 6 picks in a row and invested in injury prone edge players because he finally admitted it's a passing league. The problem is our passer stinks and so does the OC.
The QB was poor. The OL was poor. The skill position players were poor. The scheme was poor.
My first question after 2020 was "Why are we bringing back Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones after they combined to put together one of the worst Giant offenses in recent memory?"
Still don't have a good answer to that question. Still don't know why we should expect them to be good in 2021. Just... because?
Gettleman puzzles me. Jones was brought back because they were not in a position to land someone demonstrably better in the short term. Why draft a QB who is not an improvement now versus potentially getting an improvement later and having this year’s first to add talent around whomever is the QB? If you take a QB at #11 you are definitely foregoing anyone in 2022 and likely foregoing in 2023. When they decided that there was nobody worth taking over Jones they brought back Garrett so Jones would have some continuity. That being said, with the move of Kitchens I think Garrett is on a short leash.
If they decided that Justin Fields and Mac Jones didn't represent an upgrade at QB (both in player quality and in resetting the rookie contract clock) then I think we have a serious problem with talent evaluation and asset allocation.
I don't think that's it though. Gettleman knows he's sinking or swimming with Jones. I think he would have passed on Lawrence had he had the opportunity to draft him. As long as Gettleman was the GM Jones was going to be the 2021 quarterback come hell or high water.
Perhaps they thought they could get better talent than Fields or Mac Jones then and that would keep rookie contract going longer than taking Fields or Jones in 2021
Perhaps they thought they could get better talent than Fields or Mac Jones then and that would keep rookie contract going longer than taking Fields or Jones in 2021
My whole perception of 2021 is based on hoping that what you described is indeed the case.
Forget what Gettleman says about it taking 2-3 years for QB’s to pop, that is all hot air. Mara wrote these checks for clarity on Jones. He’s either going to sink or swim, they’re giving him this year to make a jump.
If not, I don’t see Judge/Abrams being as loyal to Jones. I’d envision a first round QB drafted with Jones competing with him in 2022 if there is not a significant jump.
or did the Giants OL provide the least or close to the least time to throw of any in the NFl?
Dont worry that this question is about defending Jones or DG (who imo opinion inherited a disaster of an Ol and did not go straight to fixing that without delay (point being what RB or QB does well without an OL?))...its not about that.
What's the answer to the question? That answer- not the shortcomings of DJ or SB is the weight around DG and the length of time the turnaround is taking.
To me, its not the position value or candidate shortcomings...its the sequence of the rebuild that was the foundational flaw that led to a double clutch rebuild. imo.
I think Mara did his tasks ( sort through the Northern Generals until he found Grant) faster than DG or JJ/PG did theirs
Goebbels: tell a lie and it's a lie, effectively repeat the lie and moves to truth.
They never give up, they pollute every thread. They are demonstratably wrong on issue after issue, instead of giving pause it re-vitalizes commitment.
It is important that Gettleman fails so they offer us (and repeatedly so) opinion as fact.
They tell us (with a clairvoyant's certainty) "you don't draft anyone but a qb high". And repeat and repeat. Then when Rosen and Sam Darnold flop it becomes "we should have drafted Nelson".
No blush accompanies.
"We didn't have to spend a fifth pick to sign Williams."is pounded from every hillock and street corner until it move to Goebbels truth column. But it never was the certified truth it was opinion offered as factr and they never ackowledged, never gave us prefaces like :"it seems to me" or "I think that" and they didn't because they're not smart enough to Know the difference and it's so important to critic\ize that had they known the difference they would have ignored it.
What they do know is that the savvy people who run the Colts were happy to spend a top 12 pick to get the rights to Deforest Bruckner.
Still they persist without the decensy for pause, re-consideration or re-direction.
Three years is too long, is one of their offerings here. But that's wrong, Gettleman had to clean house, he had a worse scenario than an expansion team. The locker room he inherited was poisoned and had to be cleansed.
Besides, "the three years" is too long and recent fabrication. They condemend after year one, after week one, month one and day one.
Past my bedtime, so I'm forced to end my own rant - a tough thing to do because they are such inviting targets.
GoodNight
Yes, that would clearly be jumping to conclusions.
However, it is not unfair to at least ponder some of the lost opportunities at QB that have gone by while the Giants were in partial (if not full) denial about Eli Manning's decline. And then having it continue because a pressured-front office potentially forced an imprudent evaluation on his replacement and allowed that experiment to die on the vine while other roads were not taken.
I fully support giving Jones his year 3 but it would suck if that went sideways and Jones and/or Fields turns into something...
It appears M Jones and Fields are franchise QB's already.....
I do think a QB can improve a OL and vice versa in terms of looking good/performance.
QB:
Does he get the ball out on time? Does he make proper pre snap reads? Does he take a check down or get rid of the ball preventing a negative play? Etc.
OL:
Do they run block well leading to better down/distance? Do they limit penalties helping to manage down/distance? Do they prevent pressure up the guy?
You still need a baseline of talent at both positions. One can only overcome so much if the other is deficient imo.
About Gettleman is his abject failure in the draft and FA and he's still acting like the wise ass Uncle who thinks he knows everything. We have passed on Josh Allen, Tua, Herbert, Fields and Mac Jones. All players who are absolutely more skilled QBs than the deadbeat we have. We spend tons of dough on injury riddled WR, TE and CB and again completely ignore the OL. Rashawn Slater is staring in your face and we trade down for a gadget WR with shit for brains who won't get vaccinated. Brilliant plan. We are going to stink again and Mara will keep his arms folded and scowl because he believes in Dave Gettleman despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary. I'm fully convinced that we are going to be crap again.
it would really suck if Mac Jones and/or Fields present themselves as good NFL-caliber QBs this season...
It would also suck if we gave up on Jones and he turned into another Ryan Tannehill.
Tannehill is entering his 10th season in the league. You feel like waiting 7 years for Jones to finally be a good quarterback? I don't. But maybe Gettleman can tell us that's how long it takes because college doesn't prepare quarterbacks like it used to.
I've decided that I'll enter the season optimistic about Jones
significantly improving, but Joey's comments about Anthony Thomas get me down. I see him as a building block at a key position but Joey knows way more about this than I do so I am disturbed.
If Joey is right, we will need to reboot and start another rebuild next season, which may doom Judge's career here.
RE: RE: Well, I am not convinced yet. But as mentioned
it would really suck if Mac Jones and/or Fields present themselves as good NFL-caliber QBs this season...
It would also suck if we gave up on Jones and he turned into another Ryan Tannehill.
Tannehill is entering his 10th season in the league. You feel like waiting 7 years for Jones to finally be a good quarterback? I don't. But maybe Gettleman can tell us that's how long it takes because college doesn't prepare quarterbacks like it used to.
Or a better idea - how about surrounding him with some good players before making the decision whether he is good or not… cause I’ve never seen a QB win it all with bad WRs and a bad OL. Have you?
significantly improving, but Joey's comments about Anthony Thomas get me down. I see him as a building block at a key position but Joey knows way more about this than I do so I am disturbed.
If Joey is right, we will need to reboot and start another rebuild next season, which may doom Judge's career here.
I think it's gonna be a rough season that is going to conclude in a few reset buttons being pushed. What Mara needs to be smart enough to realize is that he has a keeper in Judge, and he was a fool not to fire Gettleman along with Shurmur.
1. Suffer through 2021
2. Shitcan Gettleman and elevate O'Brien to GM
3. Rebuild begins in 2022 led by a Judge/O'Brien team that will sink or swim together; no competing timelines or agendas
2018-2021 have been thrown away by owner incompetence. There's a path to rectifying that in 2022. Mara just has to see it.
I do think that's the most likely scenario, but I'm trying to be optimistic.
But whatever else, I thought Anthony Thomas was just a very safe and sensible pick (maybe a slot or two too high, but still sensible). If he turns out to be mediocre, oh boy, the offense is in a terrible place. I mean just terrible.
Jones has been surrounded with better talent and needs to produce this season. It's that simple.
Well everyone agrees but the new talent hasn’t really practiced yet. No Golladay, Toney, Rudolph and Barkley yet.
Absolutely. These guys should be a huge benefit for Jones, so hopefully that get healthy and into the starting lineup and stay there. It would be a shame to have yet another cloudy year with Jones because there continued to be lack of good talent available to him...
I think Andrew Thomas can turn it around but it kills me that we passed on Wirfs. His athletic ability and position flexibility should have been enough for him to be the easy pick. Thomas was the last of the 4 I would have taken because fundamentally he looks uneven and unsteady too often for my taste. I'm trusting Judge here, but I wanted Wirfs.
RE: RE: RE: Well, I am not convinced yet. But as mentioned
it would really suck if Mac Jones and/or Fields present themselves as good NFL-caliber QBs this season...
It would also suck if we gave up on Jones and he turned into another Ryan Tannehill.
Tannehill is entering his 10th season in the league. You feel like waiting 7 years for Jones to finally be a good quarterback? I don't. But maybe Gettleman can tell us that's how long it takes because college doesn't prepare quarterbacks like it used to.
While simultaneously explaining how he's a good QB because Cutcliffe coached him.
My first question after 2020 was "Why are we bringing back Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones after they combined to put together one of the worst Giant offenses in recent memory?"
Still don't have a good answer to that question. Still don't know why we should expect them to be good in 2021. Just... because?
My first question after 2020 was "Why are we bringing back Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones after they combined to put together one of the worst Giant offenses in recent memory?"
Still don't have a good answer to that question. Still don't know why we should expect them to be good in 2021. Just... because?
Well, Mara obviously thought there was a talent issue. The strategy was to be aggressive in FA/draft to try and improve the offensive talent. Golladay, Toney, Rudolph & the return of Barkley is why Gettleman/Garrett are getting another swing at this. As for the OL, it was an emphasis on coaching with Sale & Flaherty brought in.
There is a lot of risk with the above, but that is what the Giants are banking on. I don’t think Garrett has a long leash, and I think Jones is out after the season with a subpar season.
On another note, Duggan wrote a great article in the athletic today about Judge learning from Belichick. As part of the training, there was a lot of emphasis on team building. Golladay scares me because of his injury history, we’ll see.
All to say, the Giants weren’t sitting on their hands just hoping the offense improves. A lot of resources have been put into it with skill players and hopefully improved coaching on the OL.
And Gettleman will get better because he can’t possibly be any worse...
My first question after 2020 was "Why are we bringing back Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones after they combined to put together one of the worst Giant offenses in recent memory?"
Still don't have a good answer to that question. Still don't know why we should expect them to be good in 2021. Just... because?
Gettleman puzzles me. Jones was brought back because they were not in a position to land someone demonstrably better in the short term. Why draft a QB who is not an improvement now versus potentially getting an improvement later and having this year’s first to add talent around whomever is the QB? If you take a QB at #11 you are definitely foregoing anyone in 2022 and likely foregoing in 2023. When they decided that there was nobody worth taking over Jones they brought back Garrett so Jones would have some continuity. That being said, with the move of Kitchens I think Garrett is on a short leash.
My first question after 2020 was "Why are we bringing back Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones after they combined to put together one of the worst Giant offenses in recent memory?"
Still don't have a good answer to that question. Still don't know why we should expect them to be good in 2021. Just... because?
Quote:
The QB was poor. The OL was poor. The skill position players were poor. The scheme was poor.
My first question after 2020 was "Why are we bringing back Gettleman, Garrett, and Jones after they combined to put together one of the worst Giant offenses in recent memory?"
Still don't have a good answer to that question. Still don't know why we should expect them to be good in 2021. Just... because?
Gettleman puzzles me. Jones was brought back because they were not in a position to land someone demonstrably better in the short term. Why draft a QB who is not an improvement now versus potentially getting an improvement later and having this year’s first to add talent around whomever is the QB? If you take a QB at #11 you are definitely foregoing anyone in 2022 and likely foregoing in 2023. When they decided that there was nobody worth taking over Jones they brought back Garrett so Jones would have some continuity. That being said, with the move of Kitchens I think Garrett is on a short leash.
If they decided that Justin Fields and Mac Jones didn't represent an upgrade at QB (both in player quality and in resetting the rookie contract clock) then I think we have a serious problem with talent evaluation and asset allocation.
I don't think that's it though. Gettleman knows he's sinking or swimming with Jones. I think he would have passed on Lawrence had he had the opportunity to draft him. As long as Gettleman was the GM Jones was going to be the 2021 quarterback come hell or high water.
My whole perception of 2021 is based on hoping that what you described is indeed the case.
If not, I don’t see Judge/Abrams being as loyal to Jones. I’d envision a first round QB drafted with Jones competing with him in 2022 if there is not a significant jump.
Dont worry that this question is about defending Jones or DG (who imo opinion inherited a disaster of an Ol and did not go straight to fixing that without delay (point being what RB or QB does well without an OL?))...its not about that.
What's the answer to the question? That answer- not the shortcomings of DJ or SB is the weight around DG and the length of time the turnaround is taking.
To me, its not the position value or candidate shortcomings...its the sequence of the rebuild that was the foundational flaw that led to a double clutch rebuild. imo.
I think Mara did his tasks ( sort through the Northern Generals until he found Grant) faster than DG or JJ/PG did theirs
They never give up, they pollute every thread. They are demonstratably wrong on issue after issue, instead of giving pause it re-vitalizes commitment.
It is important that Gettleman fails so they offer us (and repeatedly so) opinion as fact.
They tell us (with a clairvoyant's certainty) "you don't draft anyone but a qb high". And repeat and repeat. Then when Rosen and Sam Darnold flop it becomes "we should have drafted Nelson".
No blush accompanies.
"We didn't have to spend a fifth pick to sign Williams."is pounded from every hillock and street corner until it move to Goebbels truth column. But it never was the certified truth it was opinion offered as factr and they never ackowledged, never gave us prefaces like :"it seems to me" or "I think that" and they didn't because they're not smart enough to Know the difference and it's so important to critic\ize that had they known the difference they would have ignored it.
What they do know is that the savvy people who run the Colts were happy to spend a top 12 pick to get the rights to Deforest Bruckner.
Still they persist without the decensy for pause, re-consideration or re-direction.
Three years is too long, is one of their offerings here. But that's wrong, Gettleman had to clean house, he had a worse scenario than an expansion team. The locker room he inherited was poisoned and had to be cleansed.
Besides, "the three years" is too long and recent fabrication. They condemend after year one, after week one, month one and day one.
Past my bedtime, so I'm forced to end my own rant - a tough thing to do because they are such inviting targets.
GoodNight
But again, at least it keeps him off the streets at night...
Nothing like jumping to conclusions.
Nothing like jumping to conclusions.
Yes, that would clearly be jumping to conclusions.
However, it is not unfair to at least ponder some of the lost opportunities at QB that have gone by while the Giants were in partial (if not full) denial about Eli Manning's decline. And then having it continue because a pressured-front office potentially forced an imprudent evaluation on his replacement and allowed that experiment to die on the vine while other roads were not taken.
I fully support giving Jones his year 3 but it would suck if that went sideways and Jones and/or Fields turns into something...
I do think a QB can improve a OL and vice versa in terms of looking good/performance.
QB:
Does he get the ball out on time? Does he make proper pre snap reads? Does he take a check down or get rid of the ball preventing a negative play? Etc.
OL:
Do they run block well leading to better down/distance? Do they limit penalties helping to manage down/distance? Do they prevent pressure up the guy?
You still need a baseline of talent at both positions. One can only overcome so much if the other is deficient imo.
It would also suck if we gave up on Jones and he turned into another Ryan Tannehill.
The one thing about this is the Bears need to lose for Fields to play barring injury.
Quote:
it would really suck if Mac Jones and/or Fields present themselves as good NFL-caliber QBs this season...
It would also suck if we gave up on Jones and he turned into another Ryan Tannehill.
Tannehill is entering his 10th season in the league. You feel like waiting 7 years for Jones to finally be a good quarterback? I don't. But maybe Gettleman can tell us that's how long it takes because college doesn't prepare quarterbacks like it used to.
If Joey is right, we will need to reboot and start another rebuild next season, which may doom Judge's career here.
Quote:
it would really suck if Mac Jones and/or Fields present themselves as good NFL-caliber QBs this season...
It would also suck if we gave up on Jones and he turned into another Ryan Tannehill.
The Giants aren't giving up on Jones. He is the starting QB three years running now. He is being given ample opportunities to show he is the guy...
There seems to have been a mistake related to medical in the Rudolph signing - which DG ineptly tried to deflect in the latest press conference.
Ifeadi Odenigbo is on the bubble. Ragland may end up being cut.
And Golladay has barely practiced.
Now I know there are caveats associated with each one of these comments, but each one has a yellow warning sign next to it. This isn't reassuring.
Quote:
In comment 15341480 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
it would really suck if Mac Jones and/or Fields present themselves as good NFL-caliber QBs this season...
It would also suck if we gave up on Jones and he turned into another Ryan Tannehill.
Tannehill is entering his 10th season in the league. You feel like waiting 7 years for Jones to finally be a good quarterback? I don't. But maybe Gettleman can tell us that's how long it takes because college doesn't prepare quarterbacks like it used to.
Or a better idea - how about surrounding him with some good players before making the decision whether he is good or not… cause I’ve never seen a QB win it all with bad WRs and a bad OL. Have you?
Well everyone agrees but the new talent hasn’t really practiced yet. No Golladay, Toney, Rudolph and Barkley yet.
If Joey is right, we will need to reboot and start another rebuild next season, which may doom Judge's career here.
I think it's gonna be a rough season that is going to conclude in a few reset buttons being pushed. What Mara needs to be smart enough to realize is that he has a keeper in Judge, and he was a fool not to fire Gettleman along with Shurmur.
1. Suffer through 2021
2. Shitcan Gettleman and elevate O'Brien to GM
3. Rebuild begins in 2022 led by a Judge/O'Brien team that will sink or swim together; no competing timelines or agendas
2018-2021 have been thrown away by owner incompetence. There's a path to rectifying that in 2022. Mara just has to see it.
But whatever else, I thought Anthony Thomas was just a very safe and sensible pick (maybe a slot or two too high, but still sensible). If he turns out to be mediocre, oh boy, the offense is in a terrible place. I mean just terrible.
Quote:
Jones has been surrounded with better talent and needs to produce this season. It's that simple.
Well everyone agrees but the new talent hasn’t really practiced yet. No Golladay, Toney, Rudolph and Barkley yet.
Absolutely. These guys should be a huge benefit for Jones, so hopefully that get healthy and into the starting lineup and stay there. It would be a shame to have yet another cloudy year with Jones because there continued to be lack of good talent available to him...
Quote:
In comment 15341480 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
it would really suck if Mac Jones and/or Fields present themselves as good NFL-caliber QBs this season...
It would also suck if we gave up on Jones and he turned into another Ryan Tannehill.
Tannehill is entering his 10th season in the league. You feel like waiting 7 years for Jones to finally be a good quarterback? I don't. But maybe Gettleman can tell us that's how long it takes because college doesn't prepare quarterbacks like it used to.
While simultaneously explaining how he's a good QB because Cutcliffe coached him.