With the roster now full, even if Kreiter remains available to re-sign, if they sign him and add him to the roster, they have to make a cut. I assume they are just buying time and don't want to do that. So if he signs, they will have to sign him to the PS for now, no?
With the roster now full, even if Kreiter remains available to re-sign, if they sign him and add him to the roster, they have to make a cut. I assume they are just buying time and don't want to do that. So if he signs, they will have to sign him to the PS for now, no?
Yes and no. Guys will be going to IR to open up spots.
With the roster now full, even if Kreiter remains available to re-sign, if they sign him and add him to the roster, they have to make a cut. I assume they are just buying time and don't want to do that. So if he signs, they will have to sign him to the PS for now, no?
I think a couple players are going on IR, and to be recallable they need to be on final roster. Kreiter is cut today. Ross, Lemieux, Smith, someone goes on IR tomorrow afternoon, Kreiter is re-signed.
With the roster now full, even if Kreiter remains available to re-sign, if they sign him and add him to the roster, they have to make a cut. I assume they are just buying time and don't want to do that. So if he signs, they will have to sign him to the PS for now, no?
Yes and no. Guys will be going to IR to open up spots.
With the roster now full, even if Kreiter remains available to re-sign, if they sign him and add him to the roster, they have to make a cut. I assume they are just buying time and don't want to do that. So if he signs, they will have to sign him to the PS for now, no?
I think a couple players are going on IR, and to be recallable they need to be on final roster. Kreiter is cut today. Ross, Lemieux, Smith, someone goes on IR tomorrow afternoon, Kreiter is re-signed.
either would probably do well to get a few weeks of practice in and I can't imagine either would be pressed into duty. Engram obviously another as well. Calf injuries can linger and notoriously are slow to heal.
I'm guessing they IR Ross, E. Smith, and Josh Jackson. That leaves room for Krieter and 2 others. I can see them bringing back a TE they just cut it they don't snag anybody through waivers.
I don't think you IR Engram until its certain he's going to miss 3 games.
Even 9 isn't that great. We'll see what happens there.
They will have PS players..
Yes, but they just cut every non-starter and traded for 2 guys. They obviously didn't like the depth they had. And the new guys will take time to get caught up to speed on the offense. I can't say I've ever seen anything like this before. It's pretty unique.
an OT as a backup, a TE and maybe another OT/G combo.
Ross, Ellerson and Jackson (possibly EE) to IR.
Maybe that is one reason they kept 2 FB? I admit, I haven't noticed Gillaspia much. Is he like an H-back type?
Two different types of fullback maybe (outside of special teams of course); Penny could be used as a short-yardage back (as shown in the preseason) and Gillaspia as a Hedgecock-type.
an OT as a backup, a TE and maybe another OT/G combo.
Ross, Ellerson and Jackson (possibly EE) to IR.
Maybe that is one reason they kept 2 FB? I admit, I haven't noticed Gillaspia much. Is he like an H-back type?
Reading up on Gillaspia, he's mostly a special teams ace (surprise, surprise). It looks like he has caught a few passes though. He was a walk-on at LB at Texas A&M and doesn't seem to have much of a record on offense.
I was thinking that on the DL too. Can any of these OLB play as a DE in a 4-3 because I am sure we will have looks like that throughout a game but I'm not sure any of these OLB are really stout against the run in those roles.
I was thinking that on the DL too. Can any of these OLB play as a DE in a 4-3 because I am sure we will have looks like that throughout a game but I'm not sure any of these OLB are really stout against the run in those roles.
There's footage of Raymond Johnson as a 4-3 end and Elerson Smith was a 4-3 end in college.
I was thinking that on the DL too. Can any of these OLB play as a DE in a 4-3 because I am sure we will have looks like that throughout a game but I'm not sure any of these OLB are really stout against the run in those roles.
There's footage of Raymond Johnson as a 4-3 end and Elerson Smith was a 4-3 end in college.
RJ is already a DL. I said OLB because 5 DL is light. Smith hasn't done anything so far this year so he seems destined for IR. I am sure they will try to get Moa on the PS but I wouldn't be surprised to see another OL and DL added to this roster.
With the roster now full, even if Kreiter remains available to re-sign, if they sign him and add him to the roster, they have to make a cut. I assume they are just buying time and don't want to do that. So if he signs, they will have to sign him to the PS for now, no?
Or they can put someone on IR (Engram for example) and replace him with Kreiter. Engram would not be able to return until game 4. Then we can figure out what to do….and I’m sure more guys will be I juried and go on IR.
I know he is a STer but I think we have a lot of injuries and cant really have a guy like this. I hope he is all world on STs. I would have thought he would be a PS guy that you can use in games.
I am disappointed about Moa, I liked what I saw. He was noticable in every game and gave it everything he had. I hope he makes it back to us.
I was thinking that on the DL too. Can any of these OLB play as a DE in a 4-3 because I am sure we will have looks like that throughout a game but I'm not sure any of these OLB are really stout against the run in those roles.
There's footage of Raymond Johnson as a 4-3 end and Elerson Smith was a 4-3 end in college.
RJ is already a DL. I said OLB because 5 DL is light. Smith hasn't done anything so far this year so he seems destined for IR. I am sure they will try to get Moa on the PS but I wouldn't be surprised to see another OL and DL added to this roster.
Well, Carter and Ximines are the closest we got but Ximines is weak as a run defender.
With the roster now full, even if Kreiter remains available to re-sign, if they sign him and add him to the roster, they have to make a cut. I assume they are just buying time and don't want to do that. So if he signs, they will have to sign him to the PS for now, no?
This is one of those things that seem to be stuck in the nuance of roster mechanics:
A player who is placed on IR before final cutdowns must remain on IR for the entire season. A player who is on the initial 53-man roster may be assigned to IR temporarily, and that assignment can only be done once final rosters are completed.
So Kreiter can be released today to get the roster down to 53 as is required, and can be signed back onto the roster tomorrow once Smith (or whomever) is shifted to IR (and that post-cutdown IR assignment will allow for reactivation). That does come with risk, of course; some other team might sign CK tonight and we'd be SOL. But it's unlikely, and even if CK got some sort of crazy offer, he'd most likely come back to NYG with it and allow them to match.
The "final" roster we go to bed with tonight will ultimately change quite a bit before week 1.
Ifedi Odenegbo. I thought for sure he was a lock as a vet pass rusher, coming off 10 sack season and has some versatility at DE. Really surprised they cut him loose.
Even 9 isn't that great. We'll see what happens there.
9 is fine, even a bit much. 8 is also fine, assuming plenty of versatility.
You're only going to activate 8 OL on game days anyway. If you have guys that you think you can stash on the PS (in our case, that's absolutely the case with the OL guys we're cutting), you can always protect them week to week and reactivate them when you need them. Carrying more than 8 unless their talent dictates it is silly.
I'm surprised Larsen didn't make the roster; I thought he would and I thought we'd carry 9. But I suspect we have a few IR moves coming tomorrow that will bring our OL back to 9 hats, and put Kreiter back on the roster, obviously.
is the only one I'm a little surprised about. Was hoping he'd be a solid situational pass rusher but he didn't really do much in the games
A little surprising but actually a good sign. It means they like what they've seen from Ojalari, Ximines and Carter to make that move. Promising for those three guys
at center today basically indicate that Price is now the back-up center and Bredeson is the back-up guard.
I think Bredeson will be the starting LG.
With Lemieux's knee and Hernandez still being a question mark to some extent, I wouldn't be shocked to see both the new guys starting at guard at some point.
at center today basically indicate that Price is now the back-up center and Bredeson is the back-up guard.
I think Bredeson will be the starting LG.
With Lemieux's knee and Hernandez still being a question mark to some extent, I wouldn't be shocked to see both the new guys starting at guard at some point.
Hernandez has started a lot of games here without any major mishaps and looked like the least of our issues the other night. Every OL gets beat once in a while. He'll be 1 of the starting guards.
I don't think they will do this, but Price theoretically gives them the flexibility to move Gates to RT if necessary. But Gates has also been way down the list of issues so don't think it would be plan A to mess with that.
Nothing should be off the table in an effort to create
There are lineman in this league that can be easily game planned against either because of physical limitations or lack of focus. I fear Hernandez fits in that latter category. It’s too much of a coincidence how frequently he’s on the losing end of a pass rush on a stunt or blitz. When the regular season bullets fly, I fear 2019 Hernandez will reappear. In a vanilla setting, I’d count on Hernandez, in a game planned setting, that’s TBD in my view.
RE: Nothing should be off the table in an effort to create
the most effective OL from the existing roster of players in that unit. Even moving Gates out from Center which seems to be sacrilege here for many...
While I agree to a point you do want to create continuity if you can. For now Gates and Hernandez would set and I would assume Thomas is set. RT will be Peart and Solder splitting time so I would assume BB and SL will share LG. However, if RT is a struggle then move aprice to C and kick Gates out to tackle.
There are lineman in this league that can be easily game planned against either because of physical limitations or lack of focus. I fear Hernandez fits in that latter category. It’s too much of a coincidence how frequently he’s on the losing end of a pass rush on a stunt or blitz. When the regular season bullets fly, I fear 2019 Hernandez will reappear. In a vanilla setting, I’d count on Hernandez, in a game planned setting, that’s TBD in my view.
Ok then...Hernandez has lack of focus.
it's not sacrilege but it could be counterproductive
centers communicate and make the line calls.
like it or not chemistry is a real thing (both w/ QB + OL).
and Gates isn't exactly a known quantity at RT.
I agree nothing should be off the table but moving Gates comes with more risks than other options.
There are lineman in this league that can be easily game planned against either because of physical limitations or lack of focus. I fear Hernandez fits in that latter category. It’s too much of a coincidence how frequently he’s on the losing end of a pass rush on a stunt or blitz. When the regular season bullets fly, I fear 2019 Hernandez will reappear. In a vanilla setting, I’d count on Hernandez, in a game planned setting, that’s TBD in my view.
Hmmm, I dont see too many teams game planning on our G when you can easily see that and do stuff to take that away. Hernandez is good enough - we need to temper our expectations a tad as too many act like we should have 5 Pro Bowl linemen.. Too many are undervaluing what KG, KR, KT and SB can do to help take pressure off. Teams cannot overload the line if they fear getting burned.. We need better oline play and our pkay makers on the field.. Look at the Chiefs late last year, both tackles hone and Mike Remmers was starting at LT.. The Chiefs weapons- yes Mahomes us a big part of that, kerps defenses honest. We need our true full ser of weapons on the field..
new skills guys, when they see the field, new OL pieces, still adjusting to JG's system, do the Giants really want to heap on to that having to adjust to new feel on snap from C? That seems to be one, minor, point that hasn't raised yellow flashing lights, yet
There are lineman in this league that can be easily game planned against either because of physical limitations or lack of focus. I fear Hernandez fits in that latter category. It’s too much of a coincidence how frequently he’s on the losing end of a pass rush on a stunt or blitz. When the regular season bullets fly, I fear 2019 Hernandez will reappear. In a vanilla setting, I’d count on Hernandez, in a game planned setting, that’s TBD in my view.
In 2019 Will Hernandez allowed 1 sack.
Last year in 7 starts he allowed 1 sack.
In his rookie year he allowed 3.
In 2019 Will Hernandez allowed 1 sack.
Last year in 7 starts he allowed 1 sack.
In his rookie year he allowed 3.
So that's 5 for his career in 39 starts. Will Hernandez Career Stats - ( New Window )
that may all be true, but after watching him for 3 years that can't be the whole story. What about pressures, hurries, things getting blamed on other guys trying to compensate for him?
There are lineman in this league that can be easily game planned against either because of physical limitations or lack of focus. I fear Hernandez fits in that latter category. It’s too much of a coincidence how frequently he’s on the losing end of a pass rush on a stunt or blitz. When the regular season bullets fly, I fear 2019 Hernandez will reappear. In a vanilla setting, I’d count on Hernandez, in a game planned setting, that’s TBD in my view.
In 2019 Will Hernandez allowed 1 sack.
Last year in 7 starts he allowed 1 sack.
In his rookie year he allowed 3.
So that's 5 for his career in 39 starts. Will Hernandez Career Stats - ( New Window )
Wow, so he sucks in spite of that?
Because he hasn't been good, that's for sure. Your stats aren't helping his case, they're just casting a wider net.
the most effective OL from the existing roster of players in that unit. Even moving Gates out from Center which seems to be sacrilege here for many...
While I agree to a point you do want to create continuity if you can. For now Gates and Hernandez would set and I would assume Thomas is set. RT will be Peart and Solder splitting time so I would assume BB and SL will share LG. However, if RT is a struggle then move aprice to C and kick Gates out to tackle.
JVM...absolutely agree on the continuity point but not sure we have that luxury yet. Only suggesting this seems to be a bit of a witches brew right now (with no end in sight) to find who fits best and where on this OL.
Mentioned before, one of the known (and few) strengths on this OL unit is Gates versatility. And I think it should be explored versus thinking Center can't also be handled just as well by another.
Pure spitballing, but aren't most ideas on here :-)
In 2019 Will Hernandez allowed 1 sack.
Last year in 7 starts he allowed 1 sack.
In his rookie year he allowed 3.
So that's 5 for his career in 39 starts. Will Hernandez Career Stats - ( New Window )
I don’t think that 2019 number is accurate Eric. PFF had Hernandez with 3 sacks given up through week 12, with 20+ pressures and four holding penalties. I’ll look a little later if I can find the full year.
BBV had the really great review of his play from 2019. There are a bunch of examples of Hernandez being a total stud when he’s one-on-one. And a bunch of examples of him getting fooled on stunts/twists and blitzes.
The link field won’t take this URL, but here is the link:
was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
I'm not an OL expert, and I was excited when we got Zeitler, but I don't think he played all that well for us.
I agree - he seemed like a neutral impact player and I was expecting more. I view Hernandez' career to date similarly (and the penalties/sacks allowed/pff grades are all similar). But clearly what we saw from Zeitler wasn't "bad" relative to what's currently available league-wide or else I don't think the Ravens would have given him a multi-year deal and 16m fully guaranteed at age 31 (he's the 7th highest paid RG).
that the #1 priority - WITH A BULLET - of our GM, as of 45 months ago, still continues to be unresolved.
Mr. Hawg Mawllie himself was gonna fix this OL come hell or high water, and here we are, begging for another serving of scraps like Oliver Twist.
This franchise simply doesn't know how to identify OL talent. And even when they stumble into effective placeholders like Jamon Brown, they let them go because they think they know better.
Gates is a keeper. The rest are TBD, including our golden goose at OLT. And it's a shame, because DG has actually built a really good roster aside from the OL. And yet again, the OL may very well submarine our season.
RE: RE: question for the OL experts in this thread
was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
RE: RE: RE: question for the OL experts in this thread
was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
7th highest paid anything in a current FA cycle is worth precisely dick and you know that.
Unless you're setting the market, you're not a difference maker. Guys who make middle of the market wages don't matter at all because of the elevation scale of contracts.
That was a weak attempt to defend your position. Do better.
RE: I'm just wondering if anyone else finds it odd
that the #1 priority - WITH A BULLET - of our GM, as of 45 months ago, still continues to be unresolved.
Mr. Hawg Mawllie himself was gonna fix this OL come hell or high water, and here we are, begging for another serving of scraps like Oliver Twist.
This franchise simply doesn't know how to identify OL talent. And even when they stumble into effective placeholders like Jamon Brown, they let them go because they think they know better.
Gates is a keeper. The rest are TBD, including our golden goose at OLT. And it's a shame, because DG has actually built a really good roster aside from the OL. And yet again, the OL may very well submarine our season.
I think everyone finds it odd and frustrating. However clearly there have been 2 attempts at fixing the line. The quick fix in 2018/19 failed. The attempt through the draft hasn't failed yet.
Eric, this isn’t aimed at you just FYI, but I find it hard to wrap my head around why the Giants offensive line has been so demonstrably bad the last 2 years — but when these discussions come up there seems to be no one on the line who played that bad, especially on the interior. Someone had to be really bad for the line to be so bad.
RE: RE: RE: RE: question for the OL experts in this thread
was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
7th highest paid anything in a current FA cycle is worth precisely dick and you know that.
Unless you're setting the market, you're not a difference maker. Guys who make middle of the market wages don't matter at all because of the elevation scale of contracts.
That was a weak attempt to defend your position. Do better.
as tall as you are on your internet soapbox I disagree with your "weak attempt" characterization. Zeitler got $16m guaranteed on a multi-year deal at age 31 from the opposite of a desperate organization. That didn't happen because he's a bad player and that didn't happen because there are an abundance of quality starting level offensive lineman sitting out there for the taking.
RE: RE: I'm just wondering if anyone else finds it odd
that the #1 priority - WITH A BULLET - of our GM, as of 45 months ago, still continues to be unresolved.
Mr. Hawg Mawllie himself was gonna fix this OL come hell or high water, and here we are, begging for another serving of scraps like Oliver Twist.
This franchise simply doesn't know how to identify OL talent. And even when they stumble into effective placeholders like Jamon Brown, they let them go because they think they know better.
Gates is a keeper. The rest are TBD, including our golden goose at OLT. And it's a shame, because DG has actually built a really good roster aside from the OL. And yet again, the OL may very well submarine our season.
I think everyone finds it odd and frustrating. However clearly there have been 2 attempts at fixing the line. The quick fix in 2018/19 failed. The attempt through the draft hasn't failed yet.
When a GM stands up at the podium and declares his intent (and uses a lame catch phrase attached to it, like "hawg mawllies") he should't get a pass on the quick fix that failed. And when he does get a pass on that quick fix, he shouldn't get too long of a lead on his follow-up attempt.
When we find ourselves scouring the lost-and-found bin in year 4, we can at least acknowledge that Resume Dave was only providing a soundbite at his first press conference, can't we? He hasn't actually backed up his words from that day. He sure as hell hasn't been drafting or signing premium OL with any regularity apart from his quick fix or his response to that failed effort.
Christian you realize they had 2 different groups the last 2 years?
Eric, this isn’t aimed at you just FYI, but I find it hard to wrap my head around why the Giants offensive line has been so demonstrably bad the last 2 years — but when these discussions come up there seems to be no one on the line who played that bad, especially on the interior. Someone had to be really bad for the line to be so bad.
by my count that's 2-3 bad in 2019 who were all replaced in 2020 with new players who started poorly but mostly got better as the year went on.
2019 -
Solder (bad)
Hernandez (mediocre)
Halapio (bad)
Zeitler (mediocre)
Remmers (somewhere between bad and mediocre)
2020 -
Thomas (rookie, bad early, better late)
Lemiuex/Hernandez (mixed C19)
Gates (first year at C, very bad early, good late)
Zeitler (mediocre)
Flemming (somewhere between bad and mediocre)
Peart looked very good in his limited action pre-c19 and not good post.
RE: RE: RE: I'm just wondering if anyone else finds it odd
that the #1 priority - WITH A BULLET - of our GM, as of 45 months ago, still continues to be unresolved.
Mr. Hawg Mawllie himself was gonna fix this OL come hell or high water, and here we are, begging for another serving of scraps like Oliver Twist.
This franchise simply doesn't know how to identify OL talent. And even when they stumble into effective placeholders like Jamon Brown, they let them go because they think they know better.
Gates is a keeper. The rest are TBD, including our golden goose at OLT. And it's a shame, because DG has actually built a really good roster aside from the OL. And yet again, the OL may very well submarine our season.
I think everyone finds it odd and frustrating. However clearly there have been 2 attempts at fixing the line. The quick fix in 2018/19 failed. The attempt through the draft hasn't failed yet.
When a GM stands up at the podium and declares his intent (and uses a lame catch phrase attached to it, like "hawg mawllies") he should't get a pass on the quick fix that failed. And when he does get a pass on that quick fix, he shouldn't get too long of a lead on his follow-up attempt.
When we find ourselves scouring the lost-and-found bin in year 4, we can at least acknowledge that Resume Dave was only providing a soundbite at his first press conference, can't we? He hasn't actually backed up his words from that day. He sure as hell hasn't been drafting or signing premium OL with any regularity apart from his quick fix or his response to that failed effort.
who said they have? I don't think there's a poster on this site who would say they aren't worried about the OL and disappointed with where it is right now.
that doesn't however mean that Thomas/Peart are busts after 1 year or revising history to act like Hernandez has been a major problem or that Bredeson/Price are terrible pickups before they ever step on the field.
that's the reflexive thinking that had many of the same group railing about the moves today bitching about the Nick Gates extension last year.
RE: Christian you realize they had 2 different groups the last 2 years?
Eric, this isn’t aimed at you just FYI, but I find it hard to wrap my head around why the Giants offensive line has been so demonstrably bad the last 2 years — but when these discussions come up there seems to be no one on the line who played that bad, especially on the interior. Someone had to be really bad for the line to be so bad.
by my count that's 2-3 bad in 2019 who were all replaced in 2020 with new players who started poorly but mostly got better as the year went on.
2019 -
Solder (bad)
Hernandez (mediocre)
Halapio (bad)
Zeitler (mediocre)
Remmers (somewhere between bad and mediocre)
2020 -
Thomas (rookie, bad early, better late)
Lemiuex/Hernandez (mixed C19)
Gates (first year at C, very bad early, good late)
Zeitler (mediocre)
Flemming (somewhere between bad and mediocre)
Peart looked very good in his limited action pre-c19 and not good post.
I would like to think that Mr. Hawg Mawllie shouldn't require a revolving door of players to find an OL.
If you're going to declare that OL is your primary focus, then find some good fucking linemen. The fact that it's an ongoing churn in year 4, with the pollyanna explanation that he had to keep revising the line, is not an excuse. He has fundamentally failed at the primary focus he established on his very first day as GM.
that the #1 priority - WITH A BULLET - of our GM, as of 45 months ago, still continues to be unresolved.
Mr. Hawg Mawllie himself was gonna fix this OL come hell or high water, and here we are, begging for another serving of scraps like Oliver Twist.
This franchise simply doesn't know how to identify OL talent. And even when they stumble into effective placeholders like Jamon Brown, they let them go because they think they know better.
Gates is a keeper. The rest are TBD, including our golden goose at OLT. And it's a shame, because DG has actually built a really good roster aside from the OL. And yet again, the OL may very well submarine our season.
I think everyone finds it odd and frustrating. However clearly there have been 2 attempts at fixing the line. The quick fix in 2018/19 failed. The attempt through the draft hasn't failed yet.
When a GM stands up at the podium and declares his intent (and uses a lame catch phrase attached to it, like "hawg mawllies") he should't get a pass on the quick fix that failed. And when he does get a pass on that quick fix, he shouldn't get too long of a lead on his follow-up attempt.
When we find ourselves scouring the lost-and-found bin in year 4, we can at least acknowledge that Resume Dave was only providing a soundbite at his first press conference, can't we? He hasn't actually backed up his words from that day. He sure as hell hasn't been drafting or signing premium OL with any regularity apart from his quick fix or his response to that failed effort.
who said they have? I don't think there's a poster on this site who would say they aren't worried about the OL and disappointed with where it is right now.
that doesn't however mean that Thomas/Peart are busts after 1 year or revising history to act like Hernandez has been a major problem or that Bredeson/Price are terrible pickups before they ever step on the field.
that's the reflexive thinking that had many of the same group railing about the moves today bitching about the Nick Gates extension last year.
They're not busts. But they're not yet solutions.
This MFer stood in front of the podium and declared his intention to fix the OL because he knew that his predecessor had failed in that area.
And since then, HE has failed in that area, too.
His OL acquisitions have, on balance, sucked. And when he has lucked into something decent, like Jamon Brown, he let him walk. His evaluation skills when it comes to OL, are fucking dreadful. He had no business declaring OL his primary focus when he got hired because he has no ability to solve this issue other than the whack-a-mole approach that we're all witnessing.
He has actually built a fairly impressive roster in his time here, except for the one area that he promised to restore to glory. Our roster could be a contender. Our OL is barely worthy of high school ball.
I would like to think that Mr. Hawg Mawllie shouldn't require a revolving door of players to find an OL.
If you're going to declare that OL is your primary focus, then find some good fucking linemen. The fact that it's an ongoing churn in year 4, with the pollyanna explanation that he had to keep revising the line, is not an excuse. He has fundamentally failed at the primary focus he established on his very first day as GM.
I could care less about what he said in his first press conference (or any since) if the line plays well. It didn't in the first half last year but it did in the second half. This season obviously remains to be seen.
The OL was horrible for the first half of last year. They improved in the 2nd half but they were still bad. Same for Thomas. He wasnt good in the 2nd half; he was just better than horrible.
And Hernandez was pretty meh long before he got Covid. His performance significantly after his rookie season
The OL was horrible for the first half of last year. They improved in the 2nd half but they were still bad. Same for Thomas. He wasnt good in the 2nd half; he was just better than horrible.
And Hernandez was pretty meh long before he got Covid. His performance significantly after his rookie season
any OL pushing wayne gallman and an ancient alfred morris through 100 yards in consecutive weeks has to be doing something right. from the time Judge started getting more involved sacks/turnovers/pressures went down and rushing yards went up. they went 6-5 in their last 11 and 2 of those loses were the last minute losses to PHI/TB.
they had a brutal start last year in large part because of brutal play from the OL and they absolutely cannot have another one (which is why i'm glad they are acting aggressively in light of the lemiuex injury).
The pass rush and run production numbers are pretty stark between the 3rd and 4th quarter of the season.
The last four games of the year, when the Giants needed to protect the quarterback most, and move the ball on the ground the most, neither was there for 3.5 games.
We all know the mitigating circumstances. But those mitigating circumstances existed in some way or another in the previous four games.
Now we go into this year, with presumably three new starters who weren’t part of the final eight games. I don’t think there’s a compelling reason to believe weeks 10-13 will be a good lens to predict the performance now through.
Of bullshit Giants fans should recognize by now, because it is so familiar.
The team reeled off 4 straight victories in weeks 9-13. 3 of those were against losing teams, including the Eagles and Bengals, both of whom were reeling at the time. Then there was the glorious upset of the Seahawks, which everyone thought was the best game the team had played in half a decade.
Then the team faced three playoff caliber teams and lost all games by at least two TDs.
That 5-3 second half record isn’t any sign of ascending to a new level. It’s ordinary noise, along with a remarkable afternoon of football out in Seattle.
There's the temptation to put together a 53-man roster in our head. I'm sure we all do it, some of us even post it to BBI. It's a fun exercise, but this year is just another example of how impossibly unpredictable it is.
The rushing statistics back up that the OL played better during the
end of the second quarter of the season thru the third quarter (or for about 5 games). And a lot of that productions was from Daniel Jones himself with designed runs. In the fourth quarter of the season the run game all but disappeared but for a few moments against the Cowboys in the final game.
Pass pressures allowed were consistently bad throughout the year. Finishing 31st in the league which hampered the team all season long and keeping scoring down.
The OL did not play "well" in the second half and they were a primary reason why the Giants failed to win the weak NFCE division in the end...
Influenced this thread - and not inappropriately so. I think it's made worse because he had to have seen the future during the week.
If he had performed the way I thought he was going to, the mood would be very different.
OTOH, the 49er's cut of Gallman provides a different background. Against the perfect storm and no weapons to discourage 8 in the box, this maligned line was opening holes and gaining 100yds games For a plodding runner.
So will the real offensive line please stand up...
Influenced this thread - and not inappropriately so. I think it's made worse because he had to have seen the future during the week.
If he had performed the way I thought he was going to, the mood would be very different.
bingo. Could not agree more. and candidly I think every single NYG fan with a pulse had the exact same reaction to what they were seeing vs. NE. if the OL sinks a season again people need to get fired. period. and a brinks truck needs to be driven to wherever Callahan's house is.
the 2 reactions I think are unfair are:
1. reflexively shitting on the new players or the fact that they added players at all. Sy (and plenty of other people who have actually watched them recently) are positive on them. and they literally bounced almost all of the real scrap heap street FA/practice squad OL off the active roster.
2. if you are going to crush Thomas off a bad half, how about be fair and acknowledge that Hernandez looked perfectly fine at his new position (and graded out well too). If Hernandez and Gates are answers at C/RG that's a start.
but back to your point so much of the OL's performance is going to come down to Thomas. and alarms went off sunday when he played the way he did.
It’s not only the underwhelming performance by Thomas.
It’s also that Ted Larson/Kenny Wiggins platooned at left guard, and Nate Solder seemingly has a leg up on Peart.
The left guard play was so bad neither guy made the team.
If Thomas played better, fans would come out of that game nervous about left guard and right tackle.
Larson and Wiggins are gone, and they acquired 2 decent pedigree players who can play LG if Lemiuex can't get back in time. The last couple days have been a step in the right direction for the entire interior OL, or no?
If he had performed the way I thought he was going to, the mood would be very different.
If Thomas had gone out and crushed it, I think the perception of the line would have been better. But there would have certainly been concerns.
As far as the two players they acquired today — I suspect young players who are on the verge of being cut are longer term investments, need significant coaching, and are unlikely to be reliable contributors in the immediate term.
Is it a good investment? Yes absolutely. I love lottery ticket type players.
But I think Billy Price is likely to really struggle if he has to suit up as a starter to start the year.
Price, Bredeson, and Solder are a damn good trio at OC, OG, and OT. It's the starters who need to prove themselves. I think Thomas will continue to develop. It's a shame about Lemieux, not sure what to expect from him at this point. Peart is the one who scares me the most. I could see them platooning him with Solder until one of the two seizes the job (or plays himself out of it).
Price, Bredeson, and Solder are a damn good trio at OC, OG, and OT. It's the starters who need to prove themselves. I think Thomas will continue to develop. It's a shame about Lemieux, not sure what to expect from him at this point. Peart is the one who scares me the most. I could see them platooning him with Solder until one of the two seizes the job (or plays himself out of it).
Judge already said he will be rotating everyone on the line like last year - except Gates. I do not think they rotated centers.
Price, Bredeson, and Solder are a damn good trio at OC, OG, and OT. It's the starters who need to prove themselves. I think Thomas will continue to develop. It's a shame about Lemieux, not sure what to expect from him at this point. Peart is the one who scares me the most. I could see them platooning him with Solder until one of the two seizes the job (or plays himself out of it).
I was following you until you got to the remark about Andrew Thomas.
So far, the continuation of his development is not continuing, if you get my lingo. And it is at least a little disconcerting when a player supposedly improves in the second half of his rookie season, and then regresses in his two exhibition games the following season.
To speak of this as some over reaction just because Thomas
struggled last Sunday is disingenuous. Just as reacting to Hernandez better play as everything is fixed, as example. There are plenty of other issues at play with what has easily been the weakest part of this team running on a decade now.
It was a weak Offensive Line last year. And the front office did basically nothing to improve the situation, even after Zietler moved on. And not that other teams have strong depth, but it doesn't take a Dante Scarnecchia to see if any of that NY Giant OL depth actually had to play it was going to be big trouble. There were a ton of threads/comments made this offseason about concerns with the starters but also that depth. So many that posters said they don't want to talk about the OL any more. Remember?
So now some starters are struggling, some are injured, some of the depth retired, and the rest of it was so bad they decided to cut them all. An offensive line that absolutely must support a more productive Offense this season or people on the field and front office are going to lose their jobs. Yes, grabbing a few guys in deals the last few days may be helpful. It is a natural reaction to a front office that is simply bad at OL player evaluation.
If you looking here to think people are over reacting because of the two trades, you're kidding yourself...
I’ll add that a lot of our faith in the franchise rests on Judge
And with him taking the reins and bringing in O’Brien, the results so far look a lot like the Shurmur Giants. I still think Judge will emerge as a franchise cornerstone, but we need to admit that he has a lot to prove, and there have been mistakes and some iffy personnel decisions in 2021. While I hope this will get turned around in the next 4-6 weeks, I’m concerned.
There are lineman in this league that can be easily game planned against either because of physical limitations or lack of focus. I fear Hernandez fits in that latter category. It’s too much of a coincidence how frequently he’s on the losing end of a pass rush on a stunt or blitz. When the regular season bullets fly, I fear 2019 Hernandez will reappear. In a vanilla setting, I’d count on Hernandez, in a game planned setting, that’s TBD in my view.
Hmmm, I dont see too many teams game planning on our G when you can easily see that and do stuff to take that away. Hernandez is good enough - we need to temper our expectations a tad as too many act like we should have 5 Pro Bowl linemen.. Too many are undervaluing what KG, KR, KT and SB can do to help take pressure off. Teams cannot overload the line if they fear getting burned.. We need better oline play and our pkay makers on the field.. Look at the Chiefs late last year, both tackles hone and Mike Remmers was starting at LT.. The Chiefs weapons- yes Mahomes us a big part of that, kerps defenses honest. We need our true full ser of weapons on the field..
You think fans expect 5 pro bowl linemen? How about just 5 NFL caliber linemen?
And as for the idea that skill position weapons can help the OL, that may very well be true in some cases, but when opposing defenses can rush 4 and still get to the QB (or at least force a hurry), you're not keeping the defense honest.
You're also undervaluing the difference between Jones and Mahomes in terms of pocket awareness, feeling the pass rush, and broken play creativity. And even that vaunted KC offense looked rather ordinary when Tampa was able to pressure Mahomes without blitzing.
RE: RE: RE: RE: question for the OL experts in this thread
was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
7th highest paid anything in a current FA cycle is worth precisely dick and you know that.
Unless you're setting the market, you're not a difference maker. Guys who make middle of the market wages don't matter at all because of the elevation scale of contracts.
That was a weak attempt to defend your position. Do better.
No, it wasn't. You're being obtuse.
Judge is quickly going to be tainted as well to some degree
if the decisions around the OL player choices, their development, and how little they were deployed in this summer's preseason, results in another horrid start for this team in 2021.
Just surmising, but Judge may very well be wishing he took more of a player evaluation/construct role in the OL unit over the past 12 months...
Is that if Judge is not getting enough of his requests granted things will get pretty heated inside the org. Of course I doubt we will hear much of that this far out.
a couple weeks to see how they perform. People will have all season to criticize if this unit is a disaster. If Thomas, WH and Gates all perform to expectations I think they will be good enough for now. Peart will grow into the position and he can run block. LG will be functional.
If Garrett schemes and calls a game correctly they can still be a pretty good offense if the walking wounded can get on the field and Jones takes a big step forward.
a couple weeks to see how they perform. People will have all season to criticize if this unit is a disaster. If Thomas, WH and Gates all perform to expectations I think they will be good enough for now. Peart will grow into the position and he can run block. LG will be functional.
If Garrett schemes and calls a game correctly they can still be a pretty good offense if the walking wounded can get on the field and Jones takes a big step forward.
LOS, Certainly. I am not a natural critic although I understand the value of critics. Count me as one who is concerned about the sudden trades for OL, which comes off as scrambling to get a playable OL this late. I emphasize the phrase "comes off as" because obviously, I do not know the situation.
All of these crappy seasons take a toll on all of us fans.
Jones throwing 21 times in the first half without many key players seemed like it was to give some work for the OL in pass protection without help. New England is going to be a very good defense and don't be surprised if Uche gets pro bowl recognition.
All of these crappy seasons take a toll on all of us fans.
Jones throwing 21 times in the first half without many key players seemed like it was to give some work for the OL in pass protection without help. New England is going to be a very good defense and don't be surprised if Uche gets pro bowl recognition.
Thanks for your insights 👍
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: question for the OL experts in this thread
was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
7th highest paid anything in a current FA cycle is worth precisely dick and you know that.
Unless you're setting the market, you're not a difference maker. Guys who make middle of the market wages don't matter at all because of the elevation scale of contracts.
That was a weak attempt to defend your position. Do better.
No, it wasn't. You're being obtuse.
Obtuse? Maybe. But that's better than being inaccurate:
Zeitler is the 17th highest paid OG, not 7th.
Quote:
Zeitler’s $7.5 million AAV ranks him as the 17th-highest-paid guard in the NFL — a far cry from the massive contract he had prior to coming to Baltimore that made him the highest-paid guard in football at the time of his signing.
at center today basically indicate that Price is now the back-up center and Bredeson is the back-up guard.
Price and Bredeson pickups combined with Lemieux injury and Harrison release are kind of curious. I can’t believe that Lemieux can play through this injury so I have to believe he goes to IR, at least short term. Based on Bredeson’s history with Ravens (no starts when they had a lot of injuries), I think Price is the better candidate to start at LG if Lemieux is out. And that was a lot to give up (draft position) for Bredeson who couldn’t get playing time at Baltimore.
at center today basically indicate that Price is now the back-up center and Bredeson is the back-up guard.
Price and Bredeson pickups combined with Lemieux injury and Harrison release are kind of curious. I can’t believe that Lemieux can play through this injury so I have to believe he goes to IR, at least short term. Based on Bredeson’s history with Ravens (no starts when they had a lot of injuries), I think Price is the better candidate to start at LG if Lemieux is out. And that was a lot to give up (draft position) for Bredeson who couldn’t get playing time at Baltimore.
How was it alot to give up for a young OL with 3 seasons left on his contract? They basically moved down 40-60 spots while adding a 7th on top of that.
what's the plural of obtuse? is it better or worse than inaccurate?
Obtuse? Maybe. But that's better than being inaccurate:
Zeitler is the 17th highest paid OG, not 7th.
Quote:
Zeitler’s $7.5 million AAV ranks him as the 17th-highest-paid guard in the NFL — a far cry from the massive contract he had prior to coming to Baltimore that made him the highest-paid guard in football at the time of his signing.
Ravens: Kevin Zeitler’s contract is the most team-friendly - ( New Window )
was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
at center today basically indicate that Price is now the back-up center and Bredeson is the back-up guard.
Price and Bredeson pickups combined with Lemieux injury and Harrison release are kind of curious. I can’t believe that Lemieux can play through this injury so I have to believe he goes to IR, at least short term. Based on Bredeson’s history with Ravens (no starts when they had a lot of injuries), I think Price is the better candidate to start at LG if Lemieux is out. And that was a lot to give up (draft position) for Bredeson who couldn’t get playing time at Baltimore.
How was it alot to give up for a young OL with 3 seasons left on his contract? They basically moved down 40-60 spots while adding a 7th on top of that.
and on top of that instead of getting a rookie sight unseen they got a player with tape in the nfl, against nfl competition. plenty of day 3 picks are pretty much busts right away. Anyone heard anything from Chris Williamson lately? And the NYG actually picked him ahead of Tae Crowder. Or Big George? Picks below 150 are a total crapshoot.
trading day 3 picks for guys who get lost in a roster crunch is a great use of draft assets imo. Especially when as you mentioned a player like Bredesen was drafted so recently that he has 3 years left. if he was good enough for the Ravens 53 last year, and he had a good preseason, not sure why he wouldn't be good enough to make this 53.
That think Judge has a considerable say in personnel, he may shoulder some of the blame as well.
I've thought this frequently and posted the sentiment -- Judge is an inexperienced team architect, and he's not immune to mistakes -- whatever his level of authority.
The hypothesis for the o-line was clearly coaching and development would improve play, and on the d-line Williams and Lawrence were the priorities.
This is where the flapping about how the Giants could do anything they want in free agency was comical. Anything comes with tradeoffs.
The Giants cut Zeitler and didn't re-sign Tomlinson, betting what they had in hand would make due, and that WR and CB were bigger priorities.
- With the Lemieux injury, they traded Hill, who Judge himself called a starting caliber player for Price.
- The net outcome is the Giants have a rotation of Hernandez, Lemieux, Price/Bredeson as options at guard.
- And the net outcome of Lawrence, Williams, Johnsn, Shelton, Johnson on the DL.
I think both of those groups all things equal are substantively weaker YoY.
the biggest decision Judge likely impacted was Thomas over Wills
there are coaches on his staff from both UGA and Bama who were around each player. He has deep relationships with the college head coaches of both. They had their pick of any T in the draft, as much direct info as you could ask for, and they made their choice.
there's still a lot of football ahead of both players to determine whether they got it right or wrong, but I think Judge definitely owns Thomas to a large extent (and btw I would have probably went with Thomas too because I think he was the chalkiest LT in the draft and checked most of the blue goose boxes whereas Wills/Wirfs were projections to LT).
RE: what's the plural of obtuse? is it better or worse than inaccurate?
Obtuse? Maybe. But that's better than being inaccurate:
Zeitler is the 17th highest paid OG, not 7th.
Quote:
Zeitler’s $7.5 million AAV ranks him as the 17th-highest-paid guard in the NFL — a far cry from the massive contract he had prior to coming to Baltimore that made him the highest-paid guard in football at the time of his signing.
Ravens: Kevin Zeitler’s contract is the most team-friendly - ( New Window )
this is from OTC:
In comment 15349216 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15349208 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15349195 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
Awww, are you and Hornet the same person? I'll keep that in mind going forward.
RE: what's the plural of obtuse? is it better or worse than inaccurate?
Obtuse? Maybe. But that's better than being inaccurate:
Zeitler is the 17th highest paid OG, not 7th.
Quote:
Zeitler’s $7.5 million AAV ranks him as the 17th-highest-paid guard in the NFL — a far cry from the massive contract he had prior to coming to Baltimore that made him the highest-paid guard in football at the time of his signing.
Ravens: Kevin Zeitler’s contract is the most team-friendly - ( New Window )
this is from OTC:
In comment 15349216 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15349208 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15349195 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
Read the last line.
The link you’re responding to says Krieter will be resigned.
Quote:
who's the LS?
Read the last line.
No waivers for him? I assume that means someone (Smith? or a WR) will be placed on IR?
Quote:
In comment 15348858 giants#1 said:
Quote:
who's the LS?
Read the last line.
No waivers for him? I assume that means someone (Smith? or a WR) will be placed on IR?
Could be Lemieux, also.
Yes and no. Guys will be going to IR to open up spots.
I think a couple players are going on IR, and to be recallable they need to be on final roster. Kreiter is cut today. Ross, Lemieux, Smith, someone goes on IR tomorrow afternoon, Kreiter is re-signed.
Quote:
With the roster now full, even if Kreiter remains available to re-sign, if they sign him and add him to the roster, they have to make a cut. I assume they are just buying time and don't want to do that. So if he signs, they will have to sign him to the PS for now, no?
Yes and no. Guys will be going to IR to open up spots.
Thanks, got it. You too, Milton
Quote:
With the roster now full, even if Kreiter remains available to re-sign, if they sign him and add him to the roster, they have to make a cut. I assume they are just buying time and don't want to do that. So if he signs, they will have to sign him to the PS for now, no?
I think a couple players are going on IR, and to be recallable they need to be on final roster. Kreiter is cut today. Ross, Lemieux, Smith, someone goes on IR tomorrow afternoon, Kreiter is re-signed.
Thank you, too
A Tight End
1 more TE
1 LS Krieter
IR or cut 3 players
Ross
Lemieux
Engram
1 or 2 of the CBs
Are candidates for IR
1 more TE
1 LS Krieter
IR or cut 3 players
Ross
Lemieux
Engram
1 or 2 of the CBs
Are candidates for IR
Lemieux is practicing today...only Engram not on the field.
They will have PS players..
I don't think you IR Engram until its certain he's going to miss 3 games.
They did
Quote:
Even 9 isn't that great. We'll see what happens there.
They will have PS players..
Yes, but they just cut every non-starter and traded for 2 guys. They obviously didn't like the depth they had. And the new guys will take time to get caught up to speed on the offense. I can't say I've ever seen anything like this before. It's pretty unique.
They kept 9 last year plus 3 on the practice squad. I'm guessing once the week shakes out it will look similar.
Ross, Ellerson and Jackson (possibly EE) to IR.
Ross, Ellerson and Jackson (possibly EE) to IR.
Maybe that is one reason they kept 2 FB? I admit, I haven't noticed Gillaspia much. Is he like an H-back type?
but right now 5 D-Linemen and 8 O-Linemen.
Kinda thin at the LOS.
Quote:
an OT as a backup, a TE and maybe another OT/G combo.
Ross, Ellerson and Jackson (possibly EE) to IR.
Maybe that is one reason they kept 2 FB? I admit, I haven't noticed Gillaspia much. Is he like an H-back type?
Two different types of fullback maybe (outside of special teams of course); Penny could be used as a short-yardage back (as shown in the preseason) and Gillaspia as a Hedgecock-type.
Quote:
an OT as a backup, a TE and maybe another OT/G combo.
Ross, Ellerson and Jackson (possibly EE) to IR.
Maybe that is one reason they kept 2 FB? I admit, I haven't noticed Gillaspia much. Is he like an H-back type?
Reading up on Gillaspia, he's mostly a special teams ace (surprise, surprise). It looks like he has caught a few passes though. He was a walk-on at LB at Texas A&M and doesn't seem to have much of a record on offense.
but right now 5 D-Linemen and 8 O-Linemen.
Kinda thin at the LOS.
I was thinking that on the DL too. Can any of these OLB play as a DE in a 4-3 because I am sure we will have looks like that throughout a game but I'm not sure any of these OLB are really stout against the run in those roles.
Quote:
but right now 5 D-Linemen and 8 O-Linemen.
Kinda thin at the LOS.
I was thinking that on the DL too. Can any of these OLB play as a DE in a 4-3 because I am sure we will have looks like that throughout a game but I'm not sure any of these OLB are really stout against the run in those roles.
There's footage of Raymond Johnson as a 4-3 end and Elerson Smith was a 4-3 end in college.
Quote:
In comment 15348963 M.S. said:
Quote:
but right now 5 D-Linemen and 8 O-Linemen.
Kinda thin at the LOS.
I was thinking that on the DL too. Can any of these OLB play as a DE in a 4-3 because I am sure we will have looks like that throughout a game but I'm not sure any of these OLB are really stout against the run in those roles.
There's footage of Raymond Johnson as a 4-3 end and Elerson Smith was a 4-3 end in college.
RJ is already a DL. I said OLB because 5 DL is light. Smith hasn't done anything so far this year so he seems destined for IR. I am sure they will try to get Moa on the PS but I wouldn't be surprised to see another OL and DL added to this roster.
Or they can put someone on IR (Engram for example) and replace him with Kreiter. Engram would not be able to return until game 4. Then we can figure out what to do….and I’m sure more guys will be I juried and go on IR.
I am disappointed about Moa, I liked what I saw. He was noticable in every game and gave it everything he had. I hope he makes it back to us.
My guess is that Smith goes to IR.
Quote:
In comment 15348971 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 15348963 M.S. said:
Quote:
but right now 5 D-Linemen and 8 O-Linemen.
Kinda thin at the LOS.
I was thinking that on the DL too. Can any of these OLB play as a DE in a 4-3 because I am sure we will have looks like that throughout a game but I'm not sure any of these OLB are really stout against the run in those roles.
There's footage of Raymond Johnson as a 4-3 end and Elerson Smith was a 4-3 end in college.
RJ is already a DL. I said OLB because 5 DL is light. Smith hasn't done anything so far this year so he seems destined for IR. I am sure they will try to get Moa on the PS but I wouldn't be surprised to see another OL and DL added to this roster.
Well, Carter and Ximines are the closest we got but Ximines is weak as a run defender.
but right now 5 D-Linemen and 8 O-Linemen.
Kinda thin at the LOS.
10 LB, and 11 DB at the moment.
But I think Beal and T.Harris will be out once things settle, but who knows?
Quote:
but right now 5 D-Linemen and 8 O-Linemen.
Kinda thin at the LOS.
10 LB, and 11 DB at the moment.
But I think Beal and T.Harris will be out once things settle, but who knows?
No. Elerson is probably headed to short-term IR if I had to guess.
They could probably fit 100 on Shelton
2) Kept 7 WRs. Glad Ross and Dante Pettis both made the team. Not that shocked they kept Board as he had game reps last year.
That's really it. I'm very happy with the 53.
Congrats to these guys making the 53 but the situation is fluid.
This is one of those things that seem to be stuck in the nuance of roster mechanics:
A player who is placed on IR before final cutdowns must remain on IR for the entire season. A player who is on the initial 53-man roster may be assigned to IR temporarily, and that assignment can only be done once final rosters are completed.
So Kreiter can be released today to get the roster down to 53 as is required, and can be signed back onto the roster tomorrow once Smith (or whomever) is shifted to IR (and that post-cutdown IR assignment will allow for reactivation). That does come with risk, of course; some other team might sign CK tonight and we'd be SOL. But it's unlikely, and even if CK got some sort of crazy offer, he'd most likely come back to NYG with it and allow them to match.
The "final" roster we go to bed with tonight will ultimately change quite a bit before week 1.
Quote:
an OT as a backup, a TE and maybe another OT/G combo.
Ross, Ellerson and Jackson (possibly EE) to IR.
Maybe that is one reason they kept 2 FB? I admit, I haven't noticed Gillaspia much. Is he like an H-back type?
He's a special teams type.
You probably won't see him much in any offensive package.
9 is fine, even a bit much. 8 is also fine, assuming plenty of versatility.
You're only going to activate 8 OL on game days anyway. If you have guys that you think you can stash on the PS (in our case, that's absolutely the case with the OL guys we're cutting), you can always protect them week to week and reactivate them when you need them. Carrying more than 8 unless their talent dictates it is silly.
I'm surprised Larsen didn't make the roster; I thought he would and I thought we'd carry 9. But I suspect we have a few IR moves coming tomorrow that will bring our OL back to 9 hats, and put Kreiter back on the roster, obviously.
A little surprising but actually a good sign. It means they like what they've seen from Ojalari, Ximines and Carter to make that move. Promising for those three guys
I think Bredeson will be the starting LG.
Quote:
at center today basically indicate that Price is now the back-up center and Bredeson is the back-up guard.
I think Bredeson will be the starting LG.
With Lemieux's knee and Hernandez still being a question mark to some extent, I wouldn't be shocked to see both the new guys starting at guard at some point.
Quote:
at center today basically indicate that Price is now the back-up center and Bredeson is the back-up guard.
I think Bredeson will be the starting LG.
I agree. Or possibly RG with Hernandez back at LG because it seems like RG is where BAL had Bredeson this preseason.
Quote:
In comment 15349089 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
at center today basically indicate that Price is now the back-up center and Bredeson is the back-up guard.
I think Bredeson will be the starting LG.
With Lemieux's knee and Hernandez still being a question mark to some extent, I wouldn't be shocked to see both the new guys starting at guard at some point.
Hernandez has started a lot of games here without any major mishaps and looked like the least of our issues the other night. Every OL gets beat once in a while. He'll be 1 of the starting guards.
I don't think they will do this, but Price theoretically gives them the flexibility to move Gates to RT if necessary. But Gates has also been way down the list of issues so don't think it would be plan A to mess with that.
While I agree to a point you do want to create continuity if you can. For now Gates and Hernandez would set and I would assume Thomas is set. RT will be Peart and Solder splitting time so I would assume BB and SL will share LG. However, if RT is a struggle then move aprice to C and kick Gates out to tackle.
Ok then...Hernandez has lack of focus.
like it or not chemistry is a real thing (both w/ QB + OL).
and Gates isn't exactly a known quantity at RT.
I agree nothing should be off the table but moving Gates comes with more risks than other options.
Ha you say that......
Ok then...Hernandez has lack of focus.
Can they fix that with laser surgery?
Hmmm, I dont see too many teams game planning on our G when you can easily see that and do stuff to take that away. Hernandez is good enough - we need to temper our expectations a tad as too many act like we should have 5 Pro Bowl linemen.. Too many are undervaluing what KG, KR, KT and SB can do to help take pressure off. Teams cannot overload the line if they fear getting burned.. We need better oline play and our pkay makers on the field.. Look at the Chiefs late last year, both tackles hone and Mike Remmers was starting at LT.. The Chiefs weapons- yes Mahomes us a big part of that, kerps defenses honest. We need our true full ser of weapons on the field..
In 2019 Will Hernandez allowed 1 sack.
Last year in 7 starts he allowed 1 sack.
In his rookie year he allowed 3.
So that's 5 for his career in 39 starts.
Will Hernandez Career Stats - ( New Window )
In 2019 Will Hernandez allowed 1 sack.
Last year in 7 starts he allowed 1 sack.
In his rookie year he allowed 3.
So that's 5 for his career in 39 starts. Will Hernandez Career Stats - ( New Window )
that may all be true, but after watching him for 3 years that can't be the whole story. What about pressures, hurries, things getting blamed on other guys trying to compensate for him?
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There are lineman in this league that can be easily game planned against either because of physical limitations or lack of focus. I fear Hernandez fits in that latter category. It’s too much of a coincidence how frequently he’s on the losing end of a pass rush on a stunt or blitz. When the regular season bullets fly, I fear 2019 Hernandez will reappear. In a vanilla setting, I’d count on Hernandez, in a game planned setting, that’s TBD in my view.
In 2019 Will Hernandez allowed 1 sack.
Last year in 7 starts he allowed 1 sack.
In his rookie year he allowed 3.
So that's 5 for his career in 39 starts. Will Hernandez Career Stats - ( New Window )
Wow, so he sucks in spite of that?
Because he hasn't been good, that's for sure. Your stats aren't helping his case, they're just casting a wider net.
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the most effective OL from the existing roster of players in that unit. Even moving Gates out from Center which seems to be sacrilege here for many...
While I agree to a point you do want to create continuity if you can. For now Gates and Hernandez would set and I would assume Thomas is set. RT will be Peart and Solder splitting time so I would assume BB and SL will share LG. However, if RT is a struggle then move aprice to C and kick Gates out to tackle.
JVM...absolutely agree on the continuity point but not sure we have that luxury yet. Only suggesting this seems to be a bit of a witches brew right now (with no end in sight) to find who fits best and where on this OL.
Mentioned before, one of the known (and few) strengths on this OL unit is Gates versatility. And I think it should be explored versus thinking Center can't also be handled just as well by another.
Pure spitballing, but aren't most ideas on here :-)
I'm not an OL expert, and I was excited when we got Zeitler, but I don't think he played all that well for us.
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
Last year in 7 starts he allowed 1 sack.
In his rookie year he allowed 3.
So that's 5 for his career in 39 starts. Will Hernandez Career Stats - ( New Window )
I don’t think that 2019 number is accurate Eric. PFF had Hernandez with 3 sacks given up through week 12, with 20+ pressures and four holding penalties. I’ll look a little later if I can find the full year.
BBV had the really great review of his play from 2019. There are a bunch of examples of Hernandez being a total stud when he’s one-on-one. And a bunch of examples of him getting fooled on stunts/twists and blitzes.
The link field won’t take this URL, but here is the link:
https://www.bigblueview.com/2020/6/22/21293620/will-hernandez-film-study-what-went-wrong-and-right-for-talented-young-guard-in-2019
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was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
I'm not an OL expert, and I was excited when we got Zeitler, but I don't think he played all that well for us.
I agree - he seemed like a neutral impact player and I was expecting more. I view Hernandez' career to date similarly (and the penalties/sacks allowed/pff grades are all similar). But clearly what we saw from Zeitler wasn't "bad" relative to what's currently available league-wide or else I don't think the Ravens would have given him a multi-year deal and 16m fully guaranteed at age 31 (he's the 7th highest paid RG).
Mr. Hawg Mawllie himself was gonna fix this OL come hell or high water, and here we are, begging for another serving of scraps like Oliver Twist.
This franchise simply doesn't know how to identify OL talent. And even when they stumble into effective placeholders like Jamon Brown, they let them go because they think they know better.
Gates is a keeper. The rest are TBD, including our golden goose at OLT. And it's a shame, because DG has actually built a really good roster aside from the OL. And yet again, the OL may very well submarine our season.
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was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
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In comment 15349195 Eric on Li said:
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was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
7th highest paid anything in a current FA cycle is worth precisely dick and you know that.
Unless you're setting the market, you're not a difference maker. Guys who make middle of the market wages don't matter at all because of the elevation scale of contracts.
That was a weak attempt to defend your position. Do better.
Mr. Hawg Mawllie himself was gonna fix this OL come hell or high water, and here we are, begging for another serving of scraps like Oliver Twist.
This franchise simply doesn't know how to identify OL talent. And even when they stumble into effective placeholders like Jamon Brown, they let them go because they think they know better.
Gates is a keeper. The rest are TBD, including our golden goose at OLT. And it's a shame, because DG has actually built a really good roster aside from the OL. And yet again, the OL may very well submarine our season.
I think everyone finds it odd and frustrating. However clearly there have been 2 attempts at fixing the line. The quick fix in 2018/19 failed. The attempt through the draft hasn't failed yet.
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In comment 15349208 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15349195 Eric on Li said:
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was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
7th highest paid anything in a current FA cycle is worth precisely dick and you know that.
Unless you're setting the market, you're not a difference maker. Guys who make middle of the market wages don't matter at all because of the elevation scale of contracts.
That was a weak attempt to defend your position. Do better.
as tall as you are on your internet soapbox I disagree with your "weak attempt" characterization. Zeitler got $16m guaranteed on a multi-year deal at age 31 from the opposite of a desperate organization. That didn't happen because he's a bad player and that didn't happen because there are an abundance of quality starting level offensive lineman sitting out there for the taking.
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that the #1 priority - WITH A BULLET - of our GM, as of 45 months ago, still continues to be unresolved.
Mr. Hawg Mawllie himself was gonna fix this OL come hell or high water, and here we are, begging for another serving of scraps like Oliver Twist.
This franchise simply doesn't know how to identify OL talent. And even when they stumble into effective placeholders like Jamon Brown, they let them go because they think they know better.
Gates is a keeper. The rest are TBD, including our golden goose at OLT. And it's a shame, because DG has actually built a really good roster aside from the OL. And yet again, the OL may very well submarine our season.
I think everyone finds it odd and frustrating. However clearly there have been 2 attempts at fixing the line. The quick fix in 2018/19 failed. The attempt through the draft hasn't failed yet.
When a GM stands up at the podium and declares his intent (and uses a lame catch phrase attached to it, like "hawg mawllies") he should't get a pass on the quick fix that failed. And when he does get a pass on that quick fix, he shouldn't get too long of a lead on his follow-up attempt.
When we find ourselves scouring the lost-and-found bin in year 4, we can at least acknowledge that Resume Dave was only providing a soundbite at his first press conference, can't we? He hasn't actually backed up his words from that day. He sure as hell hasn't been drafting or signing premium OL with any regularity apart from his quick fix or his response to that failed effort.
by my count that's 2-3 bad in 2019 who were all replaced in 2020 with new players who started poorly but mostly got better as the year went on.
2019 -
Solder (bad)
Hernandez (mediocre)
Halapio (bad)
Zeitler (mediocre)
Remmers (somewhere between bad and mediocre)
2020 -
Thomas (rookie, bad early, better late)
Lemiuex/Hernandez (mixed C19)
Gates (first year at C, very bad early, good late)
Zeitler (mediocre)
Flemming (somewhere between bad and mediocre)
Peart looked very good in his limited action pre-c19 and not good post.
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In comment 15349215 Gatorade Dunk said:
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that the #1 priority - WITH A BULLET - of our GM, as of 45 months ago, still continues to be unresolved.
Mr. Hawg Mawllie himself was gonna fix this OL come hell or high water, and here we are, begging for another serving of scraps like Oliver Twist.
This franchise simply doesn't know how to identify OL talent. And even when they stumble into effective placeholders like Jamon Brown, they let them go because they think they know better.
Gates is a keeper. The rest are TBD, including our golden goose at OLT. And it's a shame, because DG has actually built a really good roster aside from the OL. And yet again, the OL may very well submarine our season.
I think everyone finds it odd and frustrating. However clearly there have been 2 attempts at fixing the line. The quick fix in 2018/19 failed. The attempt through the draft hasn't failed yet.
When a GM stands up at the podium and declares his intent (and uses a lame catch phrase attached to it, like "hawg mawllies") he should't get a pass on the quick fix that failed. And when he does get a pass on that quick fix, he shouldn't get too long of a lead on his follow-up attempt.
When we find ourselves scouring the lost-and-found bin in year 4, we can at least acknowledge that Resume Dave was only providing a soundbite at his first press conference, can't we? He hasn't actually backed up his words from that day. He sure as hell hasn't been drafting or signing premium OL with any regularity apart from his quick fix or his response to that failed effort.
who said they have? I don't think there's a poster on this site who would say they aren't worried about the OL and disappointed with where it is right now.
that doesn't however mean that Thomas/Peart are busts after 1 year or revising history to act like Hernandez has been a major problem or that Bredeson/Price are terrible pickups before they ever step on the field.
that's the reflexive thinking that had many of the same group railing about the moves today bitching about the Nick Gates extension last year.
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Eric, this isn’t aimed at you just FYI, but I find it hard to wrap my head around why the Giants offensive line has been so demonstrably bad the last 2 years — but when these discussions come up there seems to be no one on the line who played that bad, especially on the interior. Someone had to be really bad for the line to be so bad.
by my count that's 2-3 bad in 2019 who were all replaced in 2020 with new players who started poorly but mostly got better as the year went on.
2019 -
Solder (bad)
Hernandez (mediocre)
Halapio (bad)
Zeitler (mediocre)
Remmers (somewhere between bad and mediocre)
2020 -
Thomas (rookie, bad early, better late)
Lemiuex/Hernandez (mixed C19)
Gates (first year at C, very bad early, good late)
Zeitler (mediocre)
Flemming (somewhere between bad and mediocre)
Peart looked very good in his limited action pre-c19 and not good post.
I would like to think that Mr. Hawg Mawllie shouldn't require a revolving door of players to find an OL.
If you're going to declare that OL is your primary focus, then find some good fucking linemen. The fact that it's an ongoing churn in year 4, with the pollyanna explanation that he had to keep revising the line, is not an excuse. He has fundamentally failed at the primary focus he established on his very first day as GM.
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In comment 15349227 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15349215 Gatorade Dunk said:
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that the #1 priority - WITH A BULLET - of our GM, as of 45 months ago, still continues to be unresolved.
Mr. Hawg Mawllie himself was gonna fix this OL come hell or high water, and here we are, begging for another serving of scraps like Oliver Twist.
This franchise simply doesn't know how to identify OL talent. And even when they stumble into effective placeholders like Jamon Brown, they let them go because they think they know better.
Gates is a keeper. The rest are TBD, including our golden goose at OLT. And it's a shame, because DG has actually built a really good roster aside from the OL. And yet again, the OL may very well submarine our season.
I think everyone finds it odd and frustrating. However clearly there have been 2 attempts at fixing the line. The quick fix in 2018/19 failed. The attempt through the draft hasn't failed yet.
When a GM stands up at the podium and declares his intent (and uses a lame catch phrase attached to it, like "hawg mawllies") he should't get a pass on the quick fix that failed. And when he does get a pass on that quick fix, he shouldn't get too long of a lead on his follow-up attempt.
When we find ourselves scouring the lost-and-found bin in year 4, we can at least acknowledge that Resume Dave was only providing a soundbite at his first press conference, can't we? He hasn't actually backed up his words from that day. He sure as hell hasn't been drafting or signing premium OL with any regularity apart from his quick fix or his response to that failed effort.
who said they have? I don't think there's a poster on this site who would say they aren't worried about the OL and disappointed with where it is right now.
that doesn't however mean that Thomas/Peart are busts after 1 year or revising history to act like Hernandez has been a major problem or that Bredeson/Price are terrible pickups before they ever step on the field.
that's the reflexive thinking that had many of the same group railing about the moves today bitching about the Nick Gates extension last year.
They're not busts. But they're not yet solutions.
This MFer stood in front of the podium and declared his intention to fix the OL because he knew that his predecessor had failed in that area.
And since then, HE has failed in that area, too.
His OL acquisitions have, on balance, sucked. And when he has lucked into something decent, like Jamon Brown, he let him walk. His evaluation skills when it comes to OL, are fucking dreadful. He had no business declaring OL his primary focus when he got hired because he has no ability to solve this issue other than the whack-a-mole approach that we're all witnessing.
He has actually built a fairly impressive roster in his time here, except for the one area that he promised to restore to glory. Our roster could be a contender. Our OL is barely worthy of high school ball.
I would like to think that Mr. Hawg Mawllie shouldn't require a revolving door of players to find an OL.
If you're going to declare that OL is your primary focus, then find some good fucking linemen. The fact that it's an ongoing churn in year 4, with the pollyanna explanation that he had to keep revising the line, is not an excuse. He has fundamentally failed at the primary focus he established on his very first day as GM.
I could care less about what he said in his first press conference (or any since) if the line plays well. It didn't in the first half last year but it did in the second half. This season obviously remains to be seen.
And Hernandez was pretty meh long before he got Covid. His performance significantly after his rookie season
And Hernandez was pretty meh long before he got Covid. His performance significantly after his rookie season
any OL pushing wayne gallman and an ancient alfred morris through 100 yards in consecutive weeks has to be doing something right. from the time Judge started getting more involved sacks/turnovers/pressures went down and rushing yards went up. they went 6-5 in their last 11 and 2 of those loses were the last minute losses to PHI/TB.
they had a brutal start last year in large part because of brutal play from the OL and they absolutely cannot have another one (which is why i'm glad they are acting aggressively in light of the lemiuex injury).
That would be great and my preferred outcome.
The last four games of the year, when the Giants needed to protect the quarterback most, and move the ball on the ground the most, neither was there for 3.5 games.
We all know the mitigating circumstances. But those mitigating circumstances existed in some way or another in the previous four games.
Now we go into this year, with presumably three new starters who weren’t part of the final eight games. I don’t think there’s a compelling reason to believe weeks 10-13 will be a good lens to predict the performance now through.
The team reeled off 4 straight victories in weeks 9-13. 3 of those were against losing teams, including the Eagles and Bengals, both of whom were reeling at the time. Then there was the glorious upset of the Seahawks, which everyone thought was the best game the team had played in half a decade.
Then the team faced three playoff caliber teams and lost all games by at least two TDs.
That 5-3 second half record isn’t any sign of ascending to a new level. It’s ordinary noise, along with a remarkable afternoon of football out in Seattle.
Pass pressures allowed were consistently bad throughout the year. Finishing 31st in the league which hampered the team all season long and keeping scoring down.
The OL did not play "well" in the second half and they were a primary reason why the Giants failed to win the weak NFCE division in the end...
If he had performed the way I thought he was going to, the mood would be very different.
OTOH, the 49er's cut of Gallman provides a different background. Against the perfect storm and no weapons to discourage 8 in the box, this maligned line was opening holes and gaining 100yds games For a plodding runner.
So will the real offensive line please stand up...
but right now 5 D-Linemen and 8 O-Linemen.
Kinda thin at the LOS.
The Giants way the last decade.
If he had performed the way I thought he was going to, the mood would be very different.
bingo. Could not agree more. and candidly I think every single NYG fan with a pulse had the exact same reaction to what they were seeing vs. NE. if the OL sinks a season again people need to get fired. period. and a brinks truck needs to be driven to wherever Callahan's house is.
the 2 reactions I think are unfair are:
1. reflexively shitting on the new players or the fact that they added players at all. Sy (and plenty of other people who have actually watched them recently) are positive on them. and they literally bounced almost all of the real scrap heap street FA/practice squad OL off the active roster.
2. if you are going to crush Thomas off a bad half, how about be fair and acknowledge that Hernandez looked perfectly fine at his new position (and graded out well too). If Hernandez and Gates are answers at C/RG that's a start.
but back to your point so much of the OL's performance is going to come down to Thomas. and alarms went off sunday when he played the way he did.
It’s also that Ted Larson/Kenny Wiggins platooned at left guard, and Nate Solder seemingly has a leg up on Peart.
The left guard play was so bad neither guy made the team.
If Thomas played better, fans would come out of that game nervous about left guard and right tackle.
It’s also that Ted Larson/Kenny Wiggins platooned at left guard, and Nate Solder seemingly has a leg up on Peart.
The left guard play was so bad neither guy made the team.
If Thomas played better, fans would come out of that game nervous about left guard and right tackle.
Larson and Wiggins are gone, and they acquired 2 decent pedigree players who can play LG if Lemiuex can't get back in time. The last couple days have been a step in the right direction for the entire interior OL, or no?
If Thomas had gone out and crushed it, I think the perception of the line would have been better. But there would have certainly been concerns.
As far as the two players they acquired today — I suspect young players who are on the verge of being cut are longer term investments, need significant coaching, and are unlikely to be reliable contributors in the immediate term.
Is it a good investment? Yes absolutely. I love lottery ticket type players.
But I think Billy Price is likely to really struggle if he has to suit up as a starter to start the year.
Judge already said he will be rotating everyone on the line like last year - except Gates. I do not think they rotated centers.
I was following you until you got to the remark about Andrew Thomas.
So far, the continuation of his development is not continuing, if you get my lingo. And it is at least a little disconcerting when a player supposedly improves in the second half of his rookie season, and then regresses in his two exhibition games the following season.
It was a weak Offensive Line last year. And the front office did basically nothing to improve the situation, even after Zietler moved on. And not that other teams have strong depth, but it doesn't take a Dante Scarnecchia to see if any of that NY Giant OL depth actually had to play it was going to be big trouble. There were a ton of threads/comments made this offseason about concerns with the starters but also that depth. So many that posters said they don't want to talk about the OL any more. Remember?
So now some starters are struggling, some are injured, some of the depth retired, and the rest of it was so bad they decided to cut them all. An offensive line that absolutely must support a more productive Offense this season or people on the field and front office are going to lose their jobs. Yes, grabbing a few guys in deals the last few days may be helpful. It is a natural reaction to a front office that is simply bad at OL player evaluation.
If you looking here to think people are over reacting because of the two trades, you're kidding yourself...
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There are lineman in this league that can be easily game planned against either because of physical limitations or lack of focus. I fear Hernandez fits in that latter category. It’s too much of a coincidence how frequently he’s on the losing end of a pass rush on a stunt or blitz. When the regular season bullets fly, I fear 2019 Hernandez will reappear. In a vanilla setting, I’d count on Hernandez, in a game planned setting, that’s TBD in my view.
Hmmm, I dont see too many teams game planning on our G when you can easily see that and do stuff to take that away. Hernandez is good enough - we need to temper our expectations a tad as too many act like we should have 5 Pro Bowl linemen.. Too many are undervaluing what KG, KR, KT and SB can do to help take pressure off. Teams cannot overload the line if they fear getting burned.. We need better oline play and our pkay makers on the field.. Look at the Chiefs late last year, both tackles hone and Mike Remmers was starting at LT.. The Chiefs weapons- yes Mahomes us a big part of that, kerps defenses honest. We need our true full ser of weapons on the field..
You think fans expect 5 pro bowl linemen? How about just 5 NFL caliber linemen?
And as for the idea that skill position weapons can help the OL, that may very well be true in some cases, but when opposing defenses can rush 4 and still get to the QB (or at least force a hurry), you're not keeping the defense honest.
You're also undervaluing the difference between Jones and Mahomes in terms of pocket awareness, feeling the pass rush, and broken play creativity. And even that vaunted KC offense looked rather ordinary when Tampa was able to pressure Mahomes without blitzing.
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In comment 15349208 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15349195 Eric on Li said:
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was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
7th highest paid anything in a current FA cycle is worth precisely dick and you know that.
Unless you're setting the market, you're not a difference maker. Guys who make middle of the market wages don't matter at all because of the elevation scale of contracts.
That was a weak attempt to defend your position. Do better.
Just surmising, but Judge may very well be wishing he took more of a player evaluation/construct role in the OL unit over the past 12 months...
If Garrett schemes and calls a game correctly they can still be a pretty good offense if the walking wounded can get on the field and Jones takes a big step forward.
If Garrett schemes and calls a game correctly they can still be a pretty good offense if the walking wounded can get on the field and Jones takes a big step forward.
LOS, Certainly. I am not a natural critic although I understand the value of critics. Count me as one who is concerned about the sudden trades for OL, which comes off as scrambling to get a playable OL this late. I emphasize the phrase "comes off as" because obviously, I do not know the situation.
Jones throwing 21 times in the first half without many key players seemed like it was to give some work for the OL in pass protection without help. New England is going to be a very good defense and don't be surprised if Uche gets pro bowl recognition.
Jones throwing 21 times in the first half without many key players seemed like it was to give some work for the OL in pass protection without help. New England is going to be a very good defense and don't be surprised if Uche gets pro bowl recognition.
Thanks for your insights 👍
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In comment 15349216 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15349208 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15349195 Eric on Li said:
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was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
7th highest paid anything in a current FA cycle is worth precisely dick and you know that.
Unless you're setting the market, you're not a difference maker. Guys who make middle of the market wages don't matter at all because of the elevation scale of contracts.
That was a weak attempt to defend your position. Do better.
No, it wasn't. You're being obtuse.
Obtuse? Maybe. But that's better than being inaccurate:
Zeitler is the 17th highest paid OG, not 7th.
Ravens: Kevin Zeitler’s contract is the most team-friendly - ( New Window )
Price and Bredeson pickups combined with Lemieux injury and Harrison release are kind of curious. I can’t believe that Lemieux can play through this injury so I have to believe he goes to IR, at least short term. Based on Bredeson’s history with Ravens (no starts when they had a lot of injuries), I think Price is the better candidate to start at LG if Lemieux is out. And that was a lot to give up (draft position) for Bredeson who couldn’t get playing time at Baltimore.
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at center today basically indicate that Price is now the back-up center and Bredeson is the back-up guard.
Price and Bredeson pickups combined with Lemieux injury and Harrison release are kind of curious. I can’t believe that Lemieux can play through this injury so I have to believe he goes to IR, at least short term. Based on Bredeson’s history with Ravens (no starts when they had a lot of injuries), I think Price is the better candidate to start at LG if Lemieux is out. And that was a lot to give up (draft position) for Bredeson who couldn’t get playing time at Baltimore.
How was it alot to give up for a young OL with 3 seasons left on his contract? They basically moved down 40-60 spots while adding a 7th on top of that.
No, it wasn't. You're being obtuse.
Obtuse? Maybe. But that's better than being inaccurate:
Zeitler is the 17th highest paid OG, not 7th.
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Zeitler’s $7.5 million AAV ranks him as the 17th-highest-paid guard in the NFL — a far cry from the massive contract he had prior to coming to Baltimore that made him the highest-paid guard in football at the time of his signing.
Ravens: Kevin Zeitler’s contract is the most team-friendly - ( New Window )
this is from OTC:
In comment 15349216 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15349195 Eric on Li said:
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was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
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In comment 15349089 Eric from BBI said:
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at center today basically indicate that Price is now the back-up center and Bredeson is the back-up guard.
Price and Bredeson pickups combined with Lemieux injury and Harrison release are kind of curious. I can’t believe that Lemieux can play through this injury so I have to believe he goes to IR, at least short term. Based on Bredeson’s history with Ravens (no starts when they had a lot of injuries), I think Price is the better candidate to start at LG if Lemieux is out. And that was a lot to give up (draft position) for Bredeson who couldn’t get playing time at Baltimore.
How was it alot to give up for a young OL with 3 seasons left on his contract? They basically moved down 40-60 spots while adding a 7th on top of that.
and on top of that instead of getting a rookie sight unseen they got a player with tape in the nfl, against nfl competition. plenty of day 3 picks are pretty much busts right away. Anyone heard anything from Chris Williamson lately? And the NYG actually picked him ahead of Tae Crowder. Or Big George? Picks below 150 are a total crapshoot.
trading day 3 picks for guys who get lost in a roster crunch is a great use of draft assets imo. Especially when as you mentioned a player like Bredesen was drafted so recently that he has 3 years left. if he was good enough for the Ravens 53 last year, and he had a good preseason, not sure why he wouldn't be good enough to make this 53.
I've thought this frequently and posted the sentiment -- Judge is an inexperienced team architect, and he's not immune to mistakes -- whatever his level of authority.
The hypothesis for the o-line was clearly coaching and development would improve play, and on the d-line Williams and Lawrence were the priorities.
This is where the flapping about how the Giants could do anything they want in free agency was comical. Anything comes with tradeoffs.
The Giants cut Zeitler and didn't re-sign Tomlinson, betting what they had in hand would make due, and that WR and CB were bigger priorities.
- With the Lemieux injury, they traded Hill, who Judge himself called a starting caliber player for Price.
- The net outcome is the Giants have a rotation of Hernandez, Lemieux, Price/Bredeson as options at guard.
- And the net outcome of Lawrence, Williams, Johnsn, Shelton, Johnson on the DL.
I think both of those groups all things equal are substantively weaker YoY.
there's still a lot of football ahead of both players to determine whether they got it right or wrong, but I think Judge definitely owns Thomas to a large extent (and btw I would have probably went with Thomas too because I think he was the chalkiest LT in the draft and checked most of the blue goose boxes whereas Wills/Wirfs were projections to LT).
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No, it wasn't. You're being obtuse.
Obtuse? Maybe. But that's better than being inaccurate:
Zeitler is the 17th highest paid OG, not 7th.
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Zeitler’s $7.5 million AAV ranks him as the 17th-highest-paid guard in the NFL — a far cry from the massive contract he had prior to coming to Baltimore that made him the highest-paid guard in football at the time of his signing.
Ravens: Kevin Zeitler’s contract is the most team-friendly - ( New Window )
this is from OTC:
In comment 15349216 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15349208 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15349195 Eric on Li said:
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was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".
Awww, are you and Hornet the same person? I'll keep that in mind going forward.
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No, it wasn't. You're being obtuse.
Obtuse? Maybe. But that's better than being inaccurate:
Zeitler is the 17th highest paid OG, not 7th.
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Zeitler’s $7.5 million AAV ranks him as the 17th-highest-paid guard in the NFL — a far cry from the massive contract he had prior to coming to Baltimore that made him the highest-paid guard in football at the time of his signing.
Ravens: Kevin Zeitler’s contract is the most team-friendly - ( New Window )
this is from OTC:
In comment 15349216 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15349208 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15349195 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
was Hernandez' performance that much different than Zeitler's the past 2 years?
Great point.
Zeitler got cut.
...and signed to a multi-year deal that made him the 7th highest paid RG in the NFL. By a team consistently held up as a gold standard of player evaluation and doing things "the right way".