just the mention of his name in the same sentence with LT makes me wonder what could have been if George Young listened to Parcells. We would be talking about the Giants 80's dynasty the way the 60's Packers and 70's Steelers are talked about. Joe Montana and Jerry Rice wouldn't be near the top of these nonsense lists. Oh well.
The play and that exchange with Theismann encapsulate the man who terrorized quarterbacks from 1981 to ’93. No one would accuse Taylor of doing anything halfway. His combination of unparalleled athleticism and ferocious competitiveness landed him at No. 4 on The Athletic’s countdown of the top 100 players in NFL history.
“I always get a kick out of people that talk about, ‘Well, this player was like that player,’” Theismann said. “It’s like, ‘Listen, no, there isn’t another Lawrence Taylor.’ To me, he’s the standard by which you measure everything.”
“Back then, rookies and quarterbacks went to camp a week earlier, and we had a scrimmage,” former Giants quarterback Phil Simms said. “They had to take Lawrence out of the scrimmage after no more than 10 minutes. I don’t even think it got that far. Because he sacked the quarterback on every single throw. Not some — every throw. I can remember the quarterback was Cliff Olander and he was going crazy, ‘Can somebody block him?!’ And, ‘Uh, no, Cliff. Nobody can block him.’ I remember (coach) Ray Perkins just going, ‘Take him out!’ so they could evaluate some of the other kids.”
Bill Belichick isn’t inclined to provide soundbites. But the Patriots coach couldn’t avoid delivering when asked before a 2018 matchup with the Bears if Chicago linebacker Khalil Mack was in Taylor’s class.
“Wait a minute, we’re talking about Lawrence Taylor now,” said Belichick, seemingly offended by the mere suggestion. “I’m not putting anybody in Lawrence Taylor’s class. Put everybody down below that. With a lot of respect to a lot of good players, we’re talking about Lawrence Taylor.”
Simms had a front-row seat for the LT experience as a teammate for Taylor’s entire career. Having witnessed the wild Saturday nights and the dominant Sunday afternoons, Simms is left with a simple conclusion.
“That guy is never to be seen again,” Simms said.
It’s been 28 years since Taylor retired. No one has come close yet.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
·
3h
The hit that ended Joe Theismann's career and the phone call that followed two days later perfectly capture the ferocity of Lawrence Taylor, the No. 4 player on the @TheAthleticNFL
top 100 countdown: https://bit.ly/3BY51jd
RE: RE: Rice was the product of a great passing system
So when Rice was running away from defenders and making spectacular catches that was due to the system?
The system made him run faster, jump higher, make one handed catches, make catches in traffic, make clutch catches, etc.
Sublime analysis.
He had the cumulative stats, but to me Tim Brown was every bit as good.
I think Brown is one of the most underrated players that ever played. But basically EVERY WR who played - and even HoFamers - say Rice is absolutely, clearly the GOAT and the conversation is about who is second.
All time in yards per game. He hung around long enough to put up numbers, but boy, nobody was shivering in their boots facing him like they were with LT.
was elected to 9 pro-bowls, multiple All-Pro's, the all-90's HOF (2nd team) and the NFL HOF.
How underrated can he really be?
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
All time in yards per game. He hung around long enough to put up numbers, but boy, nobody was shivering in their boots facing him like they were with LT.
I wouldn't place him 10, but I also wouldn't put him 1. For me LT has always been #1 and Jim Brown a very close #2. If you want to say Rice #3, I wouldn't argue.
was elected to 9 pro-bowls, multiple All-Pro's, the all-90's HOF (2nd team) and the NFL HOF.
How underrated can he really be?
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
Excellent point. Plus a very good PR for most of his career. I wouldn't put him in the same class as Rice, for example. But, none of those other guys were either for a variety of reasons. I would feel very comfortable putting Brown up with those other names. If I needed a WR, I would be very happy if Brown was the guy I landed.
was elected to 9 pro-bowls, multiple All-Pro's, the all-90's HOF (2nd team) and the NFL HOF.
How underrated can he really be?
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
I never hear Carter or Harrison mentioned as best of all time.
it's always Moss vs Rice when I hear the topic debated.
Sometimes Calvin Johnson's name will enter the discussion because he retired early.
That said, I'm not sure I'd put Tim Brown ahead of Fitz or Owens or Harrison anyway. He's probably a top 10/15 all-time WR on almost any list, but I hardly think ranking someone 15 (worst case) all time ever to play his position in history is severely underrating him.
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
I never hear Carter or Harrison mentioned as best of all time.
it's always Moss vs Rice when I hear the topic debated.
Sometimes Calvin Johnson's name will enter the discussion because he retired early.
That said, I'm not sure I'd put Tim Brown ahead of Fitz or Owens or Harrison anyway. He's probably a top 10/15 all-time WR on almost any list, but I hardly think ranking someone 15 (worst case) all time ever to play his position in history is severely underrating him.
I guess it's subjective though.
Here is what made Brown so great - he never had a top QB as his battery mate.
Schroeder, Beuerlein, Evans, Marinovich, Hoss, Hobert, George, Klingler, Wilson, Hollas, Gannon (good), Hoying, Mirer, Tuiasosopo, Collins, Griese, Johnson and Simms.
Just think about those names and then the production Brown was still able to compile.
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
I never hear Carter or Harrison mentioned as best of all time.
it's always Moss vs Rice when I hear the topic debated.
Sometimes Calvin Johnson's name will enter the discussion because he retired early.
That said, I'm not sure I'd put Tim Brown ahead of Fitz or Owens or Harrison anyway. He's probably a top 10/15 all-time WR on almost any list, but I hardly think ranking someone 15 (worst case) all time ever to play his position in history is severely underrating him.
I guess it's subjective though.
Here is what made Brown so great - he never had a top QB as his battery mate.
Schroeder, Beuerlein, Evans, Marinovich, Hoss, Hobert, George, Klingler, Wilson, Hollas, Gannon (good), Hoying, Mirer, Tuiasosopo, Collins, Griese, Johnson and Simms.
Just think about those names and then the production Brown was still able to compile.
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
I never hear Carter or Harrison mentioned as best of all time.
it's always Moss vs Rice when I hear the topic debated.
Sometimes Calvin Johnson's name will enter the discussion because he retired early.
That said, I'm not sure I'd put Tim Brown ahead of Fitz or Owens or Harrison anyway. He's probably a top 10/15 all-time WR on almost any list, but I hardly think ranking someone 15 (worst case) all time ever to play his position in history is severely underrating him.
I guess it's subjective though.
Here is what made Brown so great - he never had a top QB as his battery mate.
Schroeder, Beuerlein, Evans, Marinovich, Hoss, Hobert, George, Klingler, Wilson, Hollas, Gannon (good), Hoying, Mirer, Tuiasosopo, Collins, Griese, Johnson and Simms.
Just think about those names and then the production Brown was still able to compile.
Excellent point. Hoss is the best name on that list...by a wide margin. That is saying something.
Brown is very weak. Historically you will find less than stellar QB's still find ways to complete passes and WR's are the beneficiaries.
Just look at players like Andre Johnson.
The list of QB's for Tim Brown has nothing on the list for Andre Johnson.
Ken Dorsey, Rex Grossman, Tom Savage, David Carr, Tony Banks, Sage Rosenfels, T.J. Yates, Jake Delhomme, Matt Leinart, Matt Schaub, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallett and Ryan Fitzpatrick. He did play his 35-year old season with Andrew Luck.
Brown is very weak. Historically you will find less than stellar QB's still find ways to complete passes and WR's are the beneficiaries.
Just look at players like Andre Johnson.
The list of QB's for Tim Brown has nothing on the list for Andre Johnson.
Ken Dorsey, Rex Grossman, Tom Savage, David Carr, Tony Banks, Sage Rosenfels, T.J. Yates, Jake Delhomme, Matt Leinart, Matt Schaub, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallett and Ryan Fitzpatrick. He did play his 35-year old season with Andrew Luck.
Let me get this straight. You don't think Brown's production would be even greater if he played with another QB of his era like Montana or Elway or Marino?
Would you rather have great QB or a great WR? And why?
Brown is very weak. Historically you will find less than stellar QB's still find ways to complete passes and WR's are the beneficiaries.
Just look at players like Andre Johnson.
The list of QB's for Tim Brown has nothing on the list for Andre Johnson.
Ken Dorsey, Rex Grossman, Tom Savage, David Carr, Tony Banks, Sage Rosenfels, T.J. Yates, Jake Delhomme, Matt Leinart, Matt Schaub, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallett and Ryan Fitzpatrick. He did play his 35-year old season with Andrew Luck.
Let me get this straight. You don't think Brown's production would be even greater if he played with another QB of his era like Montana or Elway or Marino?
Would you rather have great QB or a great WR? And why?
I don't know if it would or if it wouldn't - all these stats are circumstantial and projection otherwise is futile and unprovable.
Brown was getting 140 - 160 targets per season, with a better QB no clear reason to assume he would get more targets. What if he had better complementary receivers or a tight end, should we then assume he'd get less targets? In 1997 for example he was 3rd in the NFL in targets. Does a better QB give him more targets? He caught 64.2% of his targets and for the top 18 players in terms of targets that was the highest catch % of all of them.
He might have won more with a better QB throwing him the ball (same could be said for Andre Johnson), who knows, but catch more balls? I doubt that is something you can prove nor is it a fair assumption.
but use your intuition. WR is a dependent position. So if you pare a WR with a better QB it's a pretty safe assumption that the production will improve.
Wes Welker left Miami. And when he got to New England and Denver, his production went way up. Coincidence?
Randy Moss is in Oakland playing with Kerry Collins, Andrew Walter, Aaron Brooks. His production slides materially from his days in Minnesota. He then goes to New England and scores 47 TDs in 3 years.
I remember Irving Fryar leaving New England and joining Marino in Miami. Suddenly he's scoring more TDs, gaining more yardage, getting more catches.
over his career, in his era, Tim Brown averaged near or at the highest targets in the league of any WR with any QB throwing him the ball.
This is not Wes Welker or Irving Fryar.
Your assumption is he would simply get more targets and catches by playing with a different QB and it's just not sound logic given HIS circumstances.
Terrell Owens most catches in his career was with Jeff Garcia throwing him the ball not Steve Young or Tony Romo or Donovan McNabb. Garcia might be the worst of the 4.
Who was the QB for Fryar when he had his most catches and TD's? No, not Marino like you would have thought based on your logic (and your post), no, his best statistical season was with the incredible Ty Detmer in Philly.
In fact he had more catches and yards with Hugh Millen in NE than he did his first year with Marino (and Scott Mitchell) in MIA.
lol
Fryar's second best statistical season? Again, not with Marino, but with the combo of Ty Detmer and Bobby Hoying.
over his career, in his era, Tim Brown averaged near or at the highest targets in the league of any WR with any QB throwing him the ball.
This is not Wes Welker or Irving Fryar.
Your assumption is he would simply get more targets and catches by playing with a different QB and it's just not sound logic given HIS circumstances.
Terrell Owens most catches in his career was with Jeff Garcia throwing him the ball not Steve Young or Tony Romo or Donovan McNabb. Garcia might be the worst of the 4.
Let's see Brown's targets per year when they tracked targets starting in '92:
'92: 95, #31 in the league
'93: 127, #11 in the league
'94: 142, #7
'95: 148, #13
'96: 146, #11
'97: 162, #3
'98: 154, #4
'99: 145, #9
'00: 133, #17
'01" 140, #15
'02: 127, #23
'03: 94, #47
So in 12 years, he was in the top 10 4X. Not sure how he was "at or near the top" - on average - "over his career..."
so let's look at some of the players ahead of him in targets:
1995 for example, two Detroit lions ahead of him (Herman Moore and Brett Perriman).
Know who was passing them the ball? Scott Mitchell.
Eric Metcalf in ATL, know who was throwing him the ball? Jeff George.
Larry Centers (A FB in ARI) know who was throwing him the ball? 37 year old Dave Krieg
Carl Pickens in CIN, know who was throwing him the ball?
Jeff Blake
Tony Martin in SD, know who was throwing him the ball?
Stan Humphries
Look man, when you're in a hole, stop digging.
The fact remains some receivers with bad QB's put up as good or better catch/yard/TD numbers as receivers do with great QB's and a lot of statistical success is circumstantial (offense scheme, other weapons in the offense, poor defense leading to more passing, poor run game leading to more passing, schedule and strength of opposing D, etc.).
Would he have won more with better QB's? Likely. As evidenced as his lone SB appearance (I believe) was with Gannon at QB. But would his stats have been better? No one can make that claim, and evidence suggests there is no reason to believe they would have been.
I have no idea how much you actually know, specifically which eras you might know. So when you dismiss Fryar I just figure it's your football ignore coming to the surface.
You made a false statement about Brown and I corrected it. I had a suspicion you were.
Now, if you are smart, you proceed carefully here because I will find the latest hole in the effort here - which I believe is cherry picking single seasons for players - and acting as if that supports your point. As if those players are fall into some elite company...because NONE of them are going to Canton with getting a ticket.
As expected, btw, you offered zero counter to my Welker, Fryar or Moss examples. When they joined forces with better QBs, their production went way up. Which is THE point of the exercise. Why that's hard to grasp is bewildering here...
you gave of Fryer is you said he had a better season when he finally got a good QB with Marino.
I showed you that Irving Fryar actually had a better season with Ty Detmer and Rodney Peete in 1996 in PHI than he did with Dan Marino and then to prove it was not a fluke I showed you his second best season was with Detmer and Bobby Hoying, also in PHI.
These are facts out there plain for you to see. Facts.
And you used Irving Fryar as an example of how a WR would do better with a better QB and your own example disproves your theory.
I made an assumption looking at Brown's target stats - yes, thank you for the correction, he was pretty high up there and my point was all along that making an assumption those numbers would increase with a different QB was faulty and counter-factual - and your example of Fryar is one example to illustrate that.
you gave of Fryer is you said he had a better season when he finally got a good QB with Marino.
I showed you that Irving Fryar actually had a better season with Ty Detmer and Rodney Peete in 1996 in PHI than he did with Dan Marino and then to prove it was not a fluke I showed you his second best season was with Detmer and Bobby Hoying, also in PHI.
These are facts out there plain for you to see. Facts.
And you used Irving Fryar as an example of how a WR would do better with a better QB and your own example disproves your theory.
I made an assumption looking at Brown's target stats - yes, thank you for the correction, he was pretty high up there and my point was all along that making an assumption those numbers would increase with a different QB was faulty and counter-factual - and your example of Fryar is one example to illustrate that.
Let me reframe this Fryar point more clearly. When he was with the Pats playing with old man Grogan and Noodle Arm Eason, Fryar was not putting up numbers. But when he got to Miami, his numbers got much better playing with Marino.
Indeed, Fryar's numbers did improve in Philly as well. True. Detmer and Hoyer weren't great, but I think having Gruden, a Walsh disciple, as the OC were bigger factors.
I think both were great. I'd take Brown over Fryar. Didn't Fryar's wife or GF stab him the year the Pats went to the SB & lost to the Bears?
This isn't about Brown v Fryar. It's about if Brown could have been even more productive if he played with a better QB.
pjcas fabricated a point to try to make Brown look like a WR who was a beneficiary of a high volume of targets. When I proved that wrong, he gave a list of a lot of other players who weren't in Browns's class who for one year got a lot of targets. Which is beyond silly and daft.
my words were "at or near" the top of the league for targets.
You posted the numbers. He as outside the top 15 like twice in the period they record targets out of the first 10 years they recorded them and 4 times top 10. I was wrong, but not that wrong, so you are moving this discussion into pedantic and immature.
my words were "at or near" the top of the league for targets.
You posted the numbers. He as outside the top 15 like twice in the period they record targets out of the first 10 years they recorded them and 4 times top 10. I was wrong, but not that wrong, so you are moving this discussion into pedantic and immature.
My bad for not realizing "at or near the top" basically meant anywhere in any list in your mind.
RE: RE: I already said mea culpa for Brown's targets
He was more dominant relative to his position than any other NFL player, but Jim Brown was a bigger driving force to his teams a RB in his era than Rice was a WR in his.
He was also more dominant as a player in terms of prime only, although Rice clearly had the massive longevity edge.
Jim Brown highlights are just mind-blowing. I'm amazed that a man of his size/power had the kind of balance and quick change of direction ability he did, despite often times playing on terribly muddy fields while wearing crappy cleats.
All due respect to Barry Sanders who was quicker than anyone or Walter Payton who was more relentless than anyone, but it's pretty obvious that Jim Brown is the GOAT RB when you watch him and look at his accomplishments.
Rice's longevity gives him a great argument, but I think they made the right call with putting Brown ahead of him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I already said mea culpa for Brown's targets
But is he THE best ever? I get the rings. I'm not arguing that. But did he transform the game like an LT? Was he as good at a position like Jim Brown was at RB? & I think a lot of this is in the moment stuff...he's coming off his 7th title so, as I wrote earlier on this thread, I'd thought he'd end up with the top spot.
“I always get a kick out of people that talk about, ‘Well, this player was like that player,’” Theismann said. “It’s like, ‘Listen, no, there isn’t another Lawrence Taylor.’ To me, he’s the standard by which you measure everything.”
********************************************************
“Back then, rookies and quarterbacks went to camp a week earlier, and we had a scrimmage,” former Giants quarterback Phil Simms said. “They had to take Lawrence out of the scrimmage after no more than 10 minutes. I don’t even think it got that far. Because he sacked the quarterback on every single throw. Not some — every throw. I can remember the quarterback was Cliff Olander and he was going crazy, ‘Can somebody block him?!’ And, ‘Uh, no, Cliff. Nobody can block him.’ I remember (coach) Ray Perkins just going, ‘Take him out!’ so they could evaluate some of the other kids.”
*********************************************************
Bill Belichick isn’t inclined to provide soundbites. But the Patriots coach couldn’t avoid delivering when asked before a 2018 matchup with the Bears if Chicago linebacker Khalil Mack was in Taylor’s class.
“Wait a minute, we’re talking about Lawrence Taylor now,” said Belichick, seemingly offended by the mere suggestion. “I’m not putting anybody in Lawrence Taylor’s class. Put everybody down below that. With a lot of respect to a lot of good players, we’re talking about Lawrence Taylor.”
Simms had a front-row seat for the LT experience as a teammate for Taylor’s entire career. Having witnessed the wild Saturday nights and the dominant Sunday afternoons, Simms is left with a simple conclusion.
“That guy is never to be seen again,” Simms said.
It’s been 28 years since Taylor retired. No one has come close yet.
@DDuggan21
·
3h
The hit that ended Joe Theismann's career and the phone call that followed two days later perfectly capture the ferocity of Lawrence Taylor, the No. 4 player on the @TheAthleticNFL
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Quote:
With 2 great QB's running it to perfection. Put him on any other team and he's Isaac Bruce or Andre Reed. Not a slouch, but certainly not top 5.
So when Rice was running away from defenders and making spectacular catches that was due to the system?
The system made him run faster, jump higher, make one handed catches, make catches in traffic, make clutch catches, etc.
Sublime analysis.
He had the cumulative stats, but to me Tim Brown was every bit as good.
Quote:
In comment 15351344 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
With 2 great QB's running it to perfection. Put him on any other team and he's Isaac Bruce or Andre Reed. Not a slouch, but certainly not top 5.
So when Rice was running away from defenders and making spectacular catches that was due to the system?
The system made him run faster, jump higher, make one handed catches, make catches in traffic, make clutch catches, etc.
Sublime analysis.
He had the cumulative stats, but to me Tim Brown was every bit as good.
As were others not is as favorable situations. Rice in the top 3 all time is crazy.
So when Rice was running away from defenders and making spectacular catches that was due to the system?
The system made him run faster, jump higher, make one handed catches, make catches in traffic, make clutch catches, etc.
Sublime analysis.
He had the cumulative stats, but to me Tim Brown was every bit as good.
I think Brown is one of the most underrated players that ever played. But basically EVERY WR who played - and even HoFamers - say Rice is absolutely, clearly the GOAT and the conversation is about who is second.
That's good enough for me.
How underrated can he really be?
How underrated can he really be?
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
Quote:
was elected to 9 pro-bowls, multiple All-Pro's, the all-90's HOF (2nd team) and the NFL HOF.
How underrated can he really be?
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
Quote:
was elected to 9 pro-bowls, multiple All-Pro's, the all-90's HOF (2nd team) and the NFL HOF.
How underrated can he really be?
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
I never hear Carter or Harrison mentioned as best of all time.
it's always Moss vs Rice when I hear the topic debated.
Sometimes Calvin Johnson's name will enter the discussion because he retired early.
That said, I'm not sure I'd put Tim Brown ahead of Fitz or Owens or Harrison anyway. He's probably a top 10/15 all-time WR on almost any list, but I hardly think ranking someone 15 (worst case) all time ever to play his position in history is severely underrating him.
I guess it's subjective though.
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
I never hear Carter or Harrison mentioned as best of all time.
it's always Moss vs Rice when I hear the topic debated.
Sometimes Calvin Johnson's name will enter the discussion because he retired early.
That said, I'm not sure I'd put Tim Brown ahead of Fitz or Owens or Harrison anyway. He's probably a top 10/15 all-time WR on almost any list, but I hardly think ranking someone 15 (worst case) all time ever to play his position in history is severely underrating him.
I guess it's subjective though.
Here is what made Brown so great - he never had a top QB as his battery mate.
Schroeder, Beuerlein, Evans, Marinovich, Hoss, Hobert, George, Klingler, Wilson, Hollas, Gannon (good), Hoying, Mirer, Tuiasosopo, Collins, Griese, Johnson and Simms.
Just think about those names and then the production Brown was still able to compile.
Quote:
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
I never hear Carter or Harrison mentioned as best of all time.
it's always Moss vs Rice when I hear the topic debated.
Sometimes Calvin Johnson's name will enter the discussion because he retired early.
That said, I'm not sure I'd put Tim Brown ahead of Fitz or Owens or Harrison anyway. He's probably a top 10/15 all-time WR on almost any list, but I hardly think ranking someone 15 (worst case) all time ever to play his position in history is severely underrating him.
I guess it's subjective though.
Here is what made Brown so great - he never had a top QB as his battery mate.
Schroeder, Beuerlein, Evans, Marinovich, Hoss, Hobert, George, Klingler, Wilson, Hollas, Gannon (good), Hoying, Mirer, Tuiasosopo, Collins, Griese, Johnson and Simms.
Just think about those names and then the production Brown was still able to compile.
Bingo!
Quote:
How often do you hear his name as one of the all-time great WRs? If you're being honest, his name, unfortunately, doesn't come up often enough. Instead, you tend to hear - Moss, Owens, Carter, Fitz, Harrison, etc.
I never hear Carter or Harrison mentioned as best of all time.
it's always Moss vs Rice when I hear the topic debated.
Sometimes Calvin Johnson's name will enter the discussion because he retired early.
That said, I'm not sure I'd put Tim Brown ahead of Fitz or Owens or Harrison anyway. He's probably a top 10/15 all-time WR on almost any list, but I hardly think ranking someone 15 (worst case) all time ever to play his position in history is severely underrating him.
I guess it's subjective though.
Here is what made Brown so great - he never had a top QB as his battery mate.
Schroeder, Beuerlein, Evans, Marinovich, Hoss, Hobert, George, Klingler, Wilson, Hollas, Gannon (good), Hoying, Mirer, Tuiasosopo, Collins, Griese, Johnson and Simms.
Just think about those names and then the production Brown was still able to compile.
Just look at players like Andre Johnson.
The list of QB's for Tim Brown has nothing on the list for Andre Johnson.
Ken Dorsey, Rex Grossman, Tom Savage, David Carr, Tony Banks, Sage Rosenfels, T.J. Yates, Jake Delhomme, Matt Leinart, Matt Schaub, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallett and Ryan Fitzpatrick. He did play his 35-year old season with Andrew Luck.
Yes. When you see a potential injustice, it must not happen!
Just look at players like Andre Johnson.
The list of QB's for Tim Brown has nothing on the list for Andre Johnson.
Ken Dorsey, Rex Grossman, Tom Savage, David Carr, Tony Banks, Sage Rosenfels, T.J. Yates, Jake Delhomme, Matt Leinart, Matt Schaub, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallett and Ryan Fitzpatrick. He did play his 35-year old season with Andrew Luck.
Let me get this straight. You don't think Brown's production would be even greater if he played with another QB of his era like Montana or Elway or Marino?
Would you rather have great QB or a great WR? And why?
Quote:
Brown is very weak. Historically you will find less than stellar QB's still find ways to complete passes and WR's are the beneficiaries.
Just look at players like Andre Johnson.
The list of QB's for Tim Brown has nothing on the list for Andre Johnson.
Ken Dorsey, Rex Grossman, Tom Savage, David Carr, Tony Banks, Sage Rosenfels, T.J. Yates, Jake Delhomme, Matt Leinart, Matt Schaub, Case Keenum, Ryan Mallett and Ryan Fitzpatrick. He did play his 35-year old season with Andrew Luck.
Let me get this straight. You don't think Brown's production would be even greater if he played with another QB of his era like Montana or Elway or Marino?
Would you rather have great QB or a great WR? And why?
I don't know if it would or if it wouldn't - all these stats are circumstantial and projection otherwise is futile and unprovable.
Brown was getting 140 - 160 targets per season, with a better QB no clear reason to assume he would get more targets. What if he had better complementary receivers or a tight end, should we then assume he'd get less targets? In 1997 for example he was 3rd in the NFL in targets. Does a better QB give him more targets? He caught 64.2% of his targets and for the top 18 players in terms of targets that was the highest catch % of all of them.
He might have won more with a better QB throwing him the ball (same could be said for Andre Johnson), who knows, but catch more balls? I doubt that is something you can prove nor is it a fair assumption.
Wes Welker left Miami. And when he got to New England and Denver, his production went way up. Coincidence?
Randy Moss is in Oakland playing with Kerry Collins, Andrew Walter, Aaron Brooks. His production slides materially from his days in Minnesota. He then goes to New England and scores 47 TDs in 3 years.
I remember Irving Fryar leaving New England and joining Marino in Miami. Suddenly he's scoring more TDs, gaining more yardage, getting more catches.
This is not Wes Welker or Irving Fryar.
Your assumption is he would simply get more targets and catches by playing with a different QB and it's just not sound logic given HIS circumstances.
Terrell Owens most catches in his career was with Jeff Garcia throwing him the ball not Steve Young or Tony Romo or Donovan McNabb. Garcia might be the worst of the 4.
Who was the QB for Fryar when he had his most catches and TD's? No, not Marino like you would have thought based on your logic (and your post), no, his best statistical season was with the incredible Ty Detmer in Philly.
In fact he had more catches and yards with Hugh Millen in NE than he did his first year with Marino (and Scott Mitchell) in MIA.
lol
Fryar's second best statistical season? Again, not with Marino, but with the combo of Ty Detmer and Bobby Hoying.
I rest my case. Or actually you rested it for me.
This is not Wes Welker or Irving Fryar.
Your assumption is he would simply get more targets and catches by playing with a different QB and it's just not sound logic given HIS circumstances.
Terrell Owens most catches in his career was with Jeff Garcia throwing him the ball not Steve Young or Tony Romo or Donovan McNabb. Garcia might be the worst of the 4.
Let's see Brown's targets per year when they tracked targets starting in '92:
'92: 95, #31 in the league
'93: 127, #11 in the league
'94: 142, #7
'95: 148, #13
'96: 146, #11
'97: 162, #3
'98: 154, #4
'99: 145, #9
'00: 133, #17
'01" 140, #15
'02: 127, #23
'03: 94, #47
So in 12 years, he was in the top 10 4X. Not sure how he was "at or near the top" - on average - "over his career..."
1995 for example, two Detroit lions ahead of him (Herman Moore and Brett Perriman).
Know who was passing them the ball? Scott Mitchell.
Eric Metcalf in ATL, know who was throwing him the ball? Jeff George.
Larry Centers (A FB in ARI) know who was throwing him the ball? 37 year old Dave Krieg
Carl Pickens in CIN, know who was throwing him the ball?
Jeff Blake
Tony Martin in SD, know who was throwing him the ball?
Stan Humphries
Look man, when you're in a hole, stop digging.
The fact remains some receivers with bad QB's put up as good or better catch/yard/TD numbers as receivers do with great QB's and a lot of statistical success is circumstantial (offense scheme, other weapons in the offense, poor defense leading to more passing, poor run game leading to more passing, schedule and strength of opposing D, etc.).
Would he have won more with better QB's? Likely. As evidenced as his lone SB appearance (I believe) was with Gannon at QB. But would his stats have been better? No one can make that claim, and evidence suggests there is no reason to believe they would have been.
You made a false statement about Brown and I corrected it. I had a suspicion you were.
Now, if you are smart, you proceed carefully here because I will find the latest hole in the effort here - which I believe is cherry picking single seasons for players - and acting as if that supports your point. As if those players are fall into some elite company...because NONE of them are going to Canton with getting a ticket.
As expected, btw, you offered zero counter to my Welker, Fryar or Moss examples. When they joined forces with better QBs, their production went way up. Which is THE point of the exercise. Why that's hard to grasp is bewildering here...
I showed you that Irving Fryar actually had a better season with Ty Detmer and Rodney Peete in 1996 in PHI than he did with Dan Marino and then to prove it was not a fluke I showed you his second best season was with Detmer and Bobby Hoying, also in PHI.
These are facts out there plain for you to see. Facts.
And you used Irving Fryar as an example of how a WR would do better with a better QB and your own example disproves your theory.
I made an assumption looking at Brown's target stats - yes, thank you for the correction, he was pretty high up there and my point was all along that making an assumption those numbers would increase with a different QB was faulty and counter-factual - and your example of Fryar is one example to illustrate that.
I showed you that Irving Fryar actually had a better season with Ty Detmer and Rodney Peete in 1996 in PHI than he did with Dan Marino and then to prove it was not a fluke I showed you his second best season was with Detmer and Bobby Hoying, also in PHI.
These are facts out there plain for you to see. Facts.
And you used Irving Fryar as an example of how a WR would do better with a better QB and your own example disproves your theory.
I made an assumption looking at Brown's target stats - yes, thank you for the correction, he was pretty high up there and my point was all along that making an assumption those numbers would increase with a different QB was faulty and counter-factual - and your example of Fryar is one example to illustrate that.
Let me reframe this Fryar point more clearly. When he was with the Pats playing with old man Grogan and Noodle Arm Eason, Fryar was not putting up numbers. But when he got to Miami, his numbers got much better playing with Marino.
Indeed, Fryar's numbers did improve in Philly as well. True. Detmer and Hoyer weren't great, but I think having Gruden, a Walsh disciple, as the OC were bigger factors.
Tim Brown played for Gruden in OAK after Gruden left Fryar in PHI. lol.
and he had better seasons the year before Gruden took over.
Tim Brown had a better year in 1997 with Jeff George at QB than any year after with Gruden and Gannon.
I hope you see you're making a fool out of yourself.
I think both were great. I'd take Brown over Fryar. Didn't Fryar's wife or GF stab him the year the Pats went to the SB & lost to the Bears?
I just disagree that Tim Brown statistically suffered by playing with lesser QB's. I think I have proven that is a fallacy.
Tim Brown played for Gruden in OAK after Gruden left Fryar in PHI. lol.
and he had better seasons the year before Gruden took over.
Tim Brown had a better year in 1997 with Jeff George at QB than any year after with Gruden and Gannon.
I hope you see you're making a fool out of yourself.
This coming from a guy who basically lied to make a point.
And this has nothing to do with Brown v Fryar. Not sure why that is being brought up.
But for sake of moving on, take Fryar out. How do you explain the Welker/Moss improvements with better QBs? Coincidental?
Welker wasn't used the same way in Miami.
The only evidence I need is to look at Welker's stats in 2009 with Matt Cassel.
Better or at worst comparable with any season he had with Brady or Peyton Manning.
Do you need more? At this point you are being like Warden Norton in Shawshank (IOW obtuse)
I think both were great. I'd take Brown over Fryar. Didn't Fryar's wife or GF stab him the year the Pats went to the SB & lost to the Bears?
This isn't about Brown v Fryar. It's about if Brown could have been even more productive if he played with a better QB.
pjcas fabricated a point to try to make Brown look like a WR who was a beneficiary of a high volume of targets. When I proved that wrong, he gave a list of a lot of other players who weren't in Browns's class who for one year got a lot of targets. Which is beyond silly and daft.
You posted the numbers. He as outside the top 15 like twice in the period they record targets out of the first 10 years they recorded them and 4 times top 10. I was wrong, but not that wrong, so you are moving this discussion into pedantic and immature.
Welker wasn't used the same way in Miami.
The only evidence I need is to look at Welker's stats in 2009 with Matt Cassel.
Better or at worst comparable with any season he had with Brady or Peyton Manning.
Do you need more? At this point you are being like Warden Norton in Shawshank (IOW obtuse)
Oh, now Welker wasn't used correctly in Miami. I see. So ignore that he played with Gus Frerotte and Joey Harrington. My bad.
BTW, Welker arrived in New England in 2007.
You posted the numbers. He as outside the top 15 like twice in the period they record targets out of the first 10 years they recorded them and 4 times top 10. I was wrong, but not that wrong, so you are moving this discussion into pedantic and immature.
My bad for not realizing "at or near the top" basically meant anywhere in any list in your mind.
Quote:
I simply estimated.
Welker wasn't used the same way in Miami.
The only evidence I need is to look at Welker's stats in 2009 with Matt Cassel.
Better or at worst comparable with any season he had with Brady or Peyton Manning.
Do you need more? At this point you are being like Warden Norton in Shawshank (IOW obtuse)
Oh, now Welker wasn't used correctly in Miami. I see. So ignore that he played with Gus Frerotte and Joey Harrington. My bad.
BTW, Welker arrived in New England in 2007.
I know when Welker arrived in New England.
How do you explain his season with Matt Cassel as his QB?
Simple question, let's see how you answer it.
Clearly Matt Cassel is not a good QB.
BTW, this is my favorite line.
Indeed, you "simply estimated". Only you could round up numbers outside the top ten to mean "at or neat the top".
God bless you man. Don't ever change. Here's hoping you don't do taxes or finance for a living...
I know when Welker arrived in New England.
How do you explain his season with Matt Cassel as his QB?
Simple question, let's see how you answer it.
Clearly Matt Cassel is not a good QB.
Cassel, while not Brady, was a pretty good QB. And he did make the Pro Bowl with the Chiefs in 2010.
But I'm sure you knew that...
He was more dominant relative to his position than any other NFL player, but Jim Brown was a bigger driving force to his teams a RB in his era than Rice was a WR in his.
He was also more dominant as a player in terms of prime only, although Rice clearly had the massive longevity edge.
Jim Brown highlights are just mind-blowing. I'm amazed that a man of his size/power had the kind of balance and quick change of direction ability he did, despite often times playing on terribly muddy fields while wearing crappy cleats.
All due respect to Barry Sanders who was quicker than anyone or Walter Payton who was more relentless than anyone, but it's pretty obvious that Jim Brown is the GOAT RB when you watch him and look at his accomplishments.
Rice's longevity gives him a great argument, but I think they made the right call with putting Brown ahead of him.
Quote:
I know when Welker arrived in New England.
How do you explain his season with Matt Cassel as his QB?
Simple question, let's see how you answer it.
Clearly Matt Cassel is not a good QB.
Cassel, while not Brady, was a pretty good QB. And he did make the Pro Bowl with the Chiefs in 2010.
But I'm sure you knew that...
LOL, ok.
I think we're done here when Matt Cassel is a pretty good QB.
Just below Ken O'Brien and Jeff George in all time passer rating.