https://theathletic.com/2803927/2021/09/03/nfl-execs-rank-the-nfc-1-16-bucs-and-packers-in-front-nfc-west-power-and-weakness-up-front-with-giants-and-bears/
I know it’s behind a paywall, so here is what it says about the Giants:
15. New York Giants
Votes: 15-14-14-15-13 | Avg: 14.2 | Median: 14
The Giants have won the NFC East three times in the past 20 seasons and not since 2011. Their nine-season run without a division title is their longest since a 22-season gap from 1964-1985. They were 11th in the conference last season, spent big in free agency and didn’t get a vote higher than 13th in this poll, despite a weak division and a defense that can be difficult to play against.
“Their defense has a chance, but without Saquon Barkley, an offense built around Daniel Jones does not,” a voter said. “They do a lot of things with weird special teams formations that take up practice time, but their season is riding on some of the basics, like whether they can protect the quarterback.”
If this ranking becomes accurate, the Giants will own a high 2022 draft choice of their own, plus another high pick acquired from Chicago in the draft-day swap that let the Bears select Justin Fields. By then, the Giants should have a better idea whether they need to select a quarterback or can feel good about moving forward with Jones.
“What I like about Daniel Jones is he’s willing to stand in there, stare down the barrel,” a voter said. “They added some weaponry. Getting Saquon back (at some point) will be huge because they can do a better job marrying run with pass. Jones is going to work at it, he’s tough and he can do it physically. Being in the same offense for the second year in a row, he has a chance to take off a little bit. I just don’t know if they can protect him.”
I’m not as optimistic as some of you, but 15 out of 16 isinsultingly low. We are not that bad.
I’m not as optimistic as some of you, but 15 out of 16 isinsultingly low. We are not that bad.
I am not sure I agree. We are simply not very and I am usually not a pessimist. From all reports, camp has not been very good. Besides injuries, how are we not finishing in last in our division. The Eagles, who everyone on here seems to think is the division foe worse than us, has a stellar Oline and good, not great, Dline. We are probably the worst team in the worst division in football, so 15th is not "insultingly low." If everything breaks right, could we surprise? I think with a decent defense, which we have, we could. But, I think a lot of the question marks we have will have to be favorably answered for us to be a .500 range team.
Seems like a unique critique. Not saying it is valid or invalid, but given that these are executives, I found it weird as I had not really heard this before from the media, fans, etc.
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Anonymous executives, FYI.
I’m not as optimistic as some of you, but 15 out of 16 isinsultingly low. We are not that bad.
I am not sure I agree. We are simply not very and I am usually not a pessimist. From all reports, camp has not been very good. Besides injuries, how are we not finishing in last in our division. The Eagles, who everyone on here seems to think is the division foe worse than us, has a stellar Oline and good, not great, Dline. We are probably the worst team in the worst division in football, so 15th is not "insultingly low." If everything breaks right, could we surprise? I think with a decent defense, which we have, we could. But, I think a lot of the question marks we have will have to be favorably answered for us to be a .500 range team.
Speaking of question marks, it is troubling that a #2,4&6 pick are in that category.
Where has it been reported, that by all accounts it hasn’t been a good camp.
Maybe it was Gettleman? The poll was anonymous.
I like the Athletic and they have some good writers but here and there some of these polls and lists they have are just hair brained. The did one the other day about the best players under 25. Andrew Thomas was an honorable mention as a tackle yet I read articles on their site that bash him constantly. On the flip side Dexter Lawrence wasn't mentioned over guys he's out produced.
Do I think the Giants have a claim to stake down and say "we're going to be a top 5/playoff team? Not at all, but given the fact we finished 2nd in the division, returned almost our whole defense except 2 positions (1 upgraded), are getting back Barkley and added more offensive weapons, its hard to say we'll be the 2nd worse team in the entire NFC.
15th out 16 teams? I agree, that’s a bit insulting.
Giants aren't worse than the Eagles.
Giants are flailing right now trying to tweak the line. It has the appearance of desperation. Middle of the road defense (very good secondary) coupled with a terrible O line is a recipe for disaster....it just looks like and feels too much like other recent seasons.
Until the Giants can figure out why they continue to ruin offensive linemen, this continues.
This had to have been some kind of random remark/leak from someone internally in the front office. No way does that come out or said from a player or coach.
Or maybe it's just made up altogether.
Every prediction about the 2021 Giants should be based on how you feel the Offensive Line will shake out. Jones will likely improve from a horrid prior year, but it still may not convert to more win if the OL doesn't support the production of more TDs.
With all that said, 15th may be pessimistic, but could be more directionally correct than not if the OL falls apart.
I like the Athletic and they have some good writers but here and there some of these polls and lists they have are just hair brained. The did one the other day about the best players under 25. Andrew Thomas was an honorable mention as a tackle yet I read articles on their site that bash him constantly. On the flip side Dexter Lawrence wasn't mentioned over guys he's out produced.
Do I think the Giants have a claim to stake down and say "we're going to be a top 5/playoff team? Not at all, but given the fact we finished 2nd in the division, returned almost our whole defense except 2 positions (1 upgraded), are getting back Barkley and added more offensive weapons, its hard to say we'll be the 2nd worse team in the entire NFC.
I agree. But at this point with the team it’s a “don’t tell me. Show me”
This had to have been some kind of random remark/leak from someone internally in the front office. No way does that come out or said from a player or coach.
Or maybe it's just made up altogether.
No....somebody actually mentioned this the other day. It's not a secret....Training camp
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taking up valuable time?
This had to have been some kind of random remark/leak from someone internally in the front office. No way does that come out or said from a player or coach.
Or maybe it's just made up altogether.
No....somebody actually mentioned this the other day. It's not a secret....Training camp
Really? Do you recall who, are we talking about a beat writer with an axe to grind?
Its an opportunity to change the narrative.
Dallas was 7, WFT 10 and Eagles 11. One exec put the Eagles at 5 an another at 7!
WOrst NFC team was the Lions.
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Out of curiosity, who was the worst NFC team? Atlanta? Also I would assume they think Philadelphia is better?? That I don’t see at all. They’re a dumpster fire in the making. I will say if this turns out true, somebody has to be held accountable. And that somebody has better be fucking Dave.
Dallas was 7, WFT 10 and Eagles 11. One exec put the Eagles at 5 an another at 7!
WOrst NFC team was the Lions.
The outside perception of this team right now couldn’t be any lower..
A bad season wouldn't be the worst thing in the world of it shocks ownership into action. Worst case scenario is a repeat of last season - bad start followed by a second half mirage that convinces ownership "the arrow is pointing up" again.
A bad season wouldn't be the worst thing in the world of it shocks ownership into action. Worst case scenario is a repeat of last season - bad start followed by a second half mirage that convinces ownership "the arrow is pointing up" again.
I just don’t know what “action” looks like? Firing Gettleman and promoting Abrams to work with Judge? I’m intrigued with Judge and company evaluating the QB’s next year, but I just don’t know what that looks like from a front office perspective.
Not moving off Gettleman after 2019 really screwed up synergy and schedules among the front office and coaching staff.
They seems like a real dumpster fire down there.
They seem to really hate the Bears situation, which surprises me. If the views here are right, we dropped back 10 spots but secured a high pick in a loaded 2022 draft. That will be a coup and should dampen some of our tears about not getting Slater or some of the other players that went before we finally drafted this year.
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Anonymous executives, FYI.
I’m not as optimistic as some of you, but 15 out of 16 isinsultingly low. We are not that bad.
I am not sure I agree. We are simply not very and I am usually not a pessimist. From all reports, camp has not been very good. Besides injuries, how are we not finishing in last in our division. The Eagles, who everyone on here seems to think is the division foe worse than us, has a stellar Oline and good, not great, Dline. We are probably the worst team in the worst division in football, so 15th is not "insultingly low." If everything breaks right, could we surprise? I think with a decent defense, which we have, we could. But, I think a lot of the question marks we have will have to be favorably answered for us to be a .500 range team.
You think the Eagles are better than the Giants? Detroit? Chicago? Carolina? Atlanta? Seriously???
A bad season wouldn't be the worst thing in the world of it shocks ownership into action. Worst case scenario is a repeat of last season - bad start followed by a second half mirage that convinces ownership "the arrow is pointing up" again.
Look who joined the fun.
The opportunities are there to get off to a positive start. Go out and win the games; that's all that matters.
espn - ( New Window )
Yup. He was on local radio here in DC shredding the Giants. Saying they do everything to try to recreate the past and refuse to move to the future. And he said plenty other negative stuff too.
I would say #15 may be about right.
Get the QB and RT in one fell swoop, right some wrongs and rebuild with the right people picking the players.
otherwise say the Giants do "over perform" and wind up 7 - 9 or 8 - 8 but still the QB and OL are not competitive - they get stuck in purgatory of mediocrity.
So, not a loser mentality, but if the players on the roster can't win a title hitting rock bottom is an easier way to get players who can than being mediocre.
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Waste of print but love the bulletin board material
Yup. He was on local radio here in DC shredding the Giants. Saying they do everything to try to recreate the past and refuse to move to the future. And he said plenty other negative stuff too.
He's 100% right.
Lil' Bill has a guy in a blimp
You don't need a vendetta to be skeptical of the Giants...
You don't need a vendetta to be skeptical of the Giants...
And further, the conspiracy that’s necessary to construct a *positive* narrative for the Giants is that Joe Judge is secretly running all facets of the org. Of course, this is contrary to facts such as Jason Garrett being appointed O-co and Getty’s trades and FA signing and contract work and the Mara’s running the draft and pro and college scouting and pretty much everything else. But yeah, the guy who was special teams coach in NE two years ago is now running - er - influencing - the entire org. Which means we’re gonna be really competitive this year.
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around people not being optimistic about a team that has been very very bad. Maybe the worst team for a bit now.
You don't need a vendetta to be skeptical of the Giants...
And further, the conspiracy that’s necessary to construct a *positive* narrative for the Giants is that Joe Judge is secretly running all facets of the org. Of course, this is contrary to facts such as Jason Garrett being appointed O-co and Getty’s trades and FA signing and contract work and the Mara’s running the draft and pro and college scouting and pretty much everything else. But yeah, the guy who was special teams coach in NE two years ago is now running - er - influencing - the entire org. Which means we’re gonna be really competitive this year.
Garrett being the OC is certainly a fact, what is not a fact is who wanted him. Gettleman has made trades, what is not a fact is who orchestrated the trades. The drafting and FA signings are indeed facts, again who orchestrated is not a fact that we know.
I don't think they'll be worse. But significantly better? Well I can't say that I've seen anything particularly impressive about the preseason that leads me to think 2021 is going to be all that different from what we've been watching the last few seasons.
Except for Dallas and Philly, all of those teams have formidable defenses and/or defensive coordinators. So it's really tough to rationally find more than 3 wins...tops.
So we are going to need to have a good home record to get into a position for any playoff spot.
That's why these first two games - in four days - are going to be pivotal in determining which direction the season goes...
A bad season wouldn't be the worst thing in the world of it shocks ownership into action. Worst case scenario is a repeat of last season - bad start followed by a second half mirage that convinces ownership "the arrow is pointing up" again.
the last time this team had two back to back seasons where the second half "improved" upon the first half was 2018 and 2019--and the Giants ended up firing Shurmur.
They don't always operate that way. Plus they aren't firing Judge anytime soon even if they did go 4-13 this year.
DG will be gone if Jones and or the team falls flat. Don't you worry. Again, some of you act like the Giants are resistant to make changes. Uhh, they have fired so many GMs and HCs lately I lost count. facts.
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In comment 15352051 George from PA said:
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Waste of print but love the bulletin board material
Yup. He was on local radio here in DC shredding the Giants. Saying they do everything to try to recreate the past and refuse to move to the future. And he said plenty other negative stuff too.
He's 100% right.
New young QB. New first time HC.
100% horse shit.
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In the article makes it seem as if Saquon Barkley isn't playing at all this season. Really kind of kills the credibility right off the bat.....
I like the Athletic and they have some good writers but here and there some of these polls and lists they have are just hair brained. The did one the other day about the best players under 25. Andrew Thomas was an honorable mention as a tackle yet I read articles on their site that bash him constantly. On the flip side Dexter Lawrence wasn't mentioned over guys he's out produced.
Do I think the Giants have a claim to stake down and say "we're going to be a top 5/playoff team? Not at all, but given the fact we finished 2nd in the division, returned almost our whole defense except 2 positions (1 upgraded), are getting back Barkley and added more offensive weapons, its hard to say we'll be the 2nd worse team in the entire NFC.
I agree. But at this point with the team it’s a “don’t tell me. Show me”
We finished better than 15th in the NFC last year so I’d say we’ve shown we’re better than that already….
The final stats and standings will tell the truth.
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It's a badly assembled roster with a poor QB and OL whose schedule kicks off against some of the best pass rushers in the NFL.
A bad season wouldn't be the worst thing in the world of it shocks ownership into action. Worst case scenario is a repeat of last season - bad start followed by a second half mirage that convinces ownership "the arrow is pointing up" again.
the last time this team had two back to back seasons where the second half "improved" upon the first half was 2018 and 2019--and the Giants ended up firing Shurmur.
They don't always operate that way. Plus they aren't firing Judge anytime soon even if they did go 4-13 this year.
DG will be gone if Jones and or the team falls flat. Don't you worry. Again, some of you act like the Giants are resistant to make changes. Uhh, they have fired so many GMs and HCs lately I lost count. facts.
It is not that they haven't fired many GM's or HC's it is how they go about replacing them. They never hire anyone who does not have ties to the organization or previous hires. You look at successful teams like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, etc., they have cast a wide net to make sure they get the correct hire. As soon as Ernie Accorsi was hired as a "consultant" you knew DG was the hire. Jerry Reese was a promotion from within. On the head coaching side the last real person from outside the organization or the GM was Dan Reeves. Fassel and Coughlin both had ties to the Giants. McAdoo was Coughlin's OC. Shurmur had ties to DG. Judge was recommended by Bill Belichick and Nick Saban. If it was not Judge, Matt Rhule was a position coach under Tom Coughlin. This also extends to the QB position. A QB who won't make waves is more important than actual ability to play QB. The Giants would never have considered someone like Lamar Jackson for the QB position because he does not have the look of an Eli Manning or a Brett Favre.
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In comment 15352163 bradshaw44 said:
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In comment 15352051 George from PA said:
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Waste of print but love the bulletin board material
Yup. He was on local radio here in DC shredding the Giants. Saying they do everything to try to recreate the past and refuse to move to the future. And he said plenty other negative stuff too.
He's 100% right.
New young QB. New first time HC.
100% horse shit.
They didn't call Accorsi to guide them on the Jones pick? Was Jones coached by the same guy that coached Eli?
Did the Giants draft a running back #2 overall in an era where passing is king? Has their buffoon GM talked about the importance of establishing the run? Has their buffoon GM did it takes 3 years for a college quarterback to develop?
It wouldn't shock me if the calendars at the Giants offices are still turned to 1986.
Of course the coaches, scouts and other front office personnel (including the owners in certain cases) are involved as well at varying levels and providing ideas and opinions. But Gettleman is the GM...he highest level person in the organization executing on football operations that is not an owner/family member.
He is in charge and orchestrates these transactions, or is empowering a close subordinate (ie., Abrams) to do it on his behalf within certain parameters.
If both perform poorly, than we are looking at a new GM & QB.
That’s it. There is no in between. Gettleman got 2020 & 2021, but he went get 2022 based on any second half surges.
What's the real point here of questioning this...to absolve him from some blame for the goings-on? Or figure out how to divvy it up properly in making the correct firings or demotions of a family-operated business?
just asking...
What's the real point here of questioning this...to absolve him from some blame for the goings-on? Or figure out how to divvy it up properly in making the correct firings or demotions of a family-operated business?
just asking...
It's an unknown to me. If this were to defend Gettleman then you would see me celebrate any good move as Gettleman's and any not so good move to anyone else.
No one knows how closely Gettleman works with his head coaches no matter what the Giants say.
It is not that they haven't fired many GM's or HC's it is how they go about replacing them. They never hire anyone who does not have ties to the organization or previous hires. You look at successful teams like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, etc., they have cast a wide net to make sure they get the correct hire. As soon as Ernie Accorsi was hired as a "consultant" you knew DG was the hire. Jerry Reese was a promotion from within. On the head coaching side the last real person from outside the organization or the GM was Dan Reeves. Fassel and Coughlin both had ties to the Giants. McAdoo was Coughlin's OC. Shurmur had ties to DG. Judge was recommended by Bill Belichick and Nick Saban. If it was not Judge, Matt Rhule was a position coach under Tom Coughlin. This also extends to the QB position. A QB who won't make waves is more important than actual ability to play QB. The Giants would never have considered someone like Lamar Jackson for the QB position because he does not have the look of an Eli Manning or a Brett Favre.
That's such an interesting point and one I have thought about. I get wanting to find a high character guy. But the ability to actually win on the field and lead a team should be the bigger boxes to check.
What did Jones do on the "plus" side to warrant such a high draft slot? Because if you are going to invest in a prospect that high, he had better have some real high-level physical attributes. Attributes that could make you a force multiplier talent. But Jones didn't have a plus arm. Didn't have plus decision making. Didn't have plus pocket awareness. Didn't have plus off-schedule ability.
He might be a plus athlete with some decent mobility. But that was not enough - IMV - to push him that far up the draft board. NFW.
But he checked the intangibles "pluses" that Mara/Gettleman loved - Eli-ish, Cutler, Manning Camps, etc. And so far those attributes have not lead to more wins than losses and output in key metrics that indicate improving performance.
But hey, at least he kind of looks like one of the former Giants quarterbacks who won a couple of Super Bowls and never missed a start. Full bloom love!
But hey, at least he kind of looks like one of the former Giants quarterbacks who won a couple of Super Bowls and never missed a start. Full bloom love!
Like Barkley was a safe pick in '18, it's probably fair to conclude that Jones was a safe pick in '19.
But while I didn't like using the pick on a RB, at least you knew with Barkley you were getting a freakish athlete with running and receiving skills.
The point of my post was to address the poster that claimed the Giants roster transactions (free agency, draft) was proof that Gettleman and Mara control who comes and goes with the Giants. Again, we don't know who gets their way and how much.
Why praise someone who may not be responsible for a good roster move, and why criticize someone that may not have been responsible for a bad roster move?
Too much goes into how an NFL franchise is operated. And the idea that a head coach with 1 year under his belt, no matter how impressive he may sound, has taken over full responsibility for 100% of the football operations for the Giants is folly.
More likely, Judge has impressed others in the FO enough that, he is being included more in a variety of decision-making processes that affect the team. And part in parcel with that, is the poor results from those who used to drive those decisions in the past has caused some doubts as to their own prowess and the value they are actually providing to this rebuild.
of course, just spitballing...
How does that even make any sense for a guy that was completely off anyone’s radar as a HC candidate? “Thanks Mr Mara, appreciate the HC offer but just one condition, I’ll be making the player personnel decisions.” And John Mara was like, “no problem Joe, you got carte blanche but we just have to pretend that me and Dave are making the decisions. Welcome aboard kid!”
And the Mara’s and Getty would agree to Judge’s supreme influence because… Wait, why would they agree to such enormous influence for Judge? His special teams coaching in NE? He worked for Saban plotting plays? Belichicks glowing recommendation? (And all the renowned success of Little Bill’s coaching tree)?
Or did Mara give Judge the keys to the Big Blue castle after last season’s stunning and unequivocal success for the first time ever HC Judge?
And from a practical standpoint how does this work? Getty and Chris Mara have Slater as the first pick but Judge stands up in the war rooms and overrules and picks KT? “Need more speed on offense guys. My call right John? Hey Chris, grab me a Coke while you’re up”.
Further, let’s say it's true and Judge is twirling his shvantz around the building and telling everyone what to do. What’s that say about the rest of the org? The second year head coach who finished with a losing record is now influencing all football decision? And this is our hope to turn things around?
Anyway…
I think Judge is going to be a good head coach. I do. But I’m not convinced he’ll be a successful HC for the Giants. Especially considering the way Getty has built out this roster. Aside from KA, how many GMs are going to want to come in and not be able to pick their own HC? And what if Judge doesn’t like the new GM? There’s a lot that can still go wrong for the Giants even if Judge is a really solid HC. It’s not how I would run the organization but, I don’t run it. And neither does Joe Judge. The Giants are run by John Mara and his family. And they probably always will be.
1h
Now that the rosters are set, good time to revisit-
Checklist for building a championship foundation in today's NFL
Role/Number of players
QB (1)
Pass rusher (2)
Off Playmaker (3)
Def Playmaker (3)
Quality OL (3)
Which teams hit every mark?
On defense pretty much all the boxes are checked - 3+ playmakers (Martinez, Bradberry, Jackson, all the safeties) and Leonard Williams qualifies as 1 pass rusher. Carter or Ojulari hitting as a 2nd pass rusher would take it over the top.
On offense they have playmakers when healthy (Shepard, Engram, Barkley, Golladay, Slayton/Toney?).
So as we would all have kind of guessed, this season is really entirely on Jones + whether or not there are 3 good OL on this roster.
That somehow seems like a lot of boxes checked for a team picked to come in basically last place.
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Daniel Jeremiah @MoveTheSticks
1h
Now that the rosters are set, good time to revisit-
Checklist for building a championship foundation in today's NFL
Role/Number of players
QB (1)
Pass rusher (2)
Off Playmaker (3)
Def Playmaker (3)
Quality OL (3)
Which teams hit every mark?
I really Jeremiah, but I think he has the wrong ranking.
QB #1 for sure. But I would put OL firmly #2.
In today's NFL, there is such a premium on scoring/offense that a quality OL makes it so much easier to play the game (along with the QB of course).
How does that even make any sense for a guy that was completely off anyone’s radar as a HC candidate? “Thanks Mr Mara, appreciate the HC offer but just one condition, I’ll be making the player personnel decisions.” And John Mara was like, “no problem Joe, you got carte blanche but we just have to pretend that me and Dave are making the decisions. Welcome aboard kid!”
And the Mara’s and Getty would agree to Judge’s supreme influence because… Wait, why would they agree to such enormous influence for Judge? His special teams coaching in NE? He worked for Saban plotting plays? Belichicks glowing recommendation? (And all the renowned success of Little Bill’s coaching tree)?
Or did Mara give Judge the keys to the Big Blue castle after last season’s stunning and unequivocal success for the first time ever HC Judge?
And from a practical standpoint how does this work? Getty and Chris Mara have Slater as the first pick but Judge stands up in the war rooms and overrules and picks KT? “Need more speed on offense guys. My call right John? Hey Chris, grab me a Coke while you’re up”.
Further, let’s say it's true and Judge is twirling his shvantz around the building and telling everyone what to do. What’s that say about the rest of the org? The second year head coach who finished with a losing record is now influencing all football decision? And this is our hope to turn things around?
Anyway…
I think Judge is going to be a good head coach. I do. But I’m not convinced he’ll be a successful HC for the Giants. Especially considering the way Getty has built out this roster. Aside from KA, how many GMs are going to want to come in and not be able to pick their own HC? And what if Judge doesn’t like the new GM? There’s a lot that can still go wrong for the Giants even if Judge is a really solid HC. It’s not how I would run the organization but, I don’t run it. And neither does Joe Judge. The Giants are run by John Mara and his family. And they probably always will be.
I don't even know of any posters claiming that Judge is making all of the personnel decisions.
The Giants claim collaboration. If that is the case, how do we know where praise and blame should be directed?
You stated it a fact that Mara hired Garrett.
I agree with this. I would feel confident in suggesting that Mara recommended Garrett. But a recommendation is not a mandate.
I don’t think insularity is the problem. I think John Mara doesn’t know what he’s doing - that’s the problem.
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I don’t think Judge is swinging some big dick around the Meadowlands and calling all the shots for the Giants. This doesn’t track with who Gettleman has always been and it certainly doesn’t track with who we know the Mara’s have always been. I think it’s just fantasy to think to that Judge is the secret leader of the New York Football Giants.
How does that even make any sense for a guy that was completely off anyone’s radar as a HC candidate? “Thanks Mr Mara, appreciate the HC offer but just one condition, I’ll be making the player personnel decisions.” And John Mara was like, “no problem Joe, you got carte blanche but we just have to pretend that me and Dave are making the decisions. Welcome aboard kid!”
And the Mara’s and Getty would agree to Judge’s supreme influence because… Wait, why would they agree to such enormous influence for Judge? His special teams coaching in NE? He worked for Saban plotting plays? Belichicks glowing recommendation? (And all the renowned success of Little Bill’s coaching tree)?
Or did Mara give Judge the keys to the Big Blue castle after last season’s stunning and unequivocal success for the first time ever HC Judge?
And from a practical standpoint how does this work? Getty and Chris Mara have Slater as the first pick but Judge stands up in the war rooms and overrules and picks KT? “Need more speed on offense guys. My call right John? Hey Chris, grab me a Coke while you’re up”.
Further, let’s say it's true and Judge is twirling his shvantz around the building and telling everyone what to do. What’s that say about the rest of the org? The second year head coach who finished with a losing record is now influencing all football decision? And this is our hope to turn things around?
Anyway…
I think Judge is going to be a good head coach. I do. But I’m not convinced he’ll be a successful HC for the Giants. Especially considering the way Getty has built out this roster. Aside from KA, how many GMs are going to want to come in and not be able to pick their own HC? And what if Judge doesn’t like the new GM? There’s a lot that can still go wrong for the Giants even if Judge is a really solid HC. It’s not how I would run the organization but, I don’t run it. And neither does Joe Judge. The Giants are run by John Mara and his family. And they probably always will be.
I don't even know of any posters claiming that Judge is making all of the personnel decisions.
The Giants claim collaboration. If that is the case, how do we know where praise and blame should be directed?
You stated it a fact that Mara hired Garrett.
You keep missing it. Posters have naturally gravitated towards Judge because he is new blood, sounds the part and took a bad roster last year and got a decent amount out of it. And maybe because they are just simply tired of hitching their wagon to Gettleman since he has been, well... awful.
But those posters though cannot just leave Getts behind altogether so they remark how good of a collaborative team Judge and Getts are. When it looks more and more like Judge is picking up the slack that is created by a poor GM. Getts still likely has too much involvement because, as mentioned before, there is a lot to do in running football operations, but at least its something that is being mitigating more and more.
Don't concern yourself with where blame and praise go if you can't see it. Just watch the Giants...
I've always believed that Mara strongly encouraged Judge to take Garrett as his OC. Garrett has HC experience, knows the NFCE, played in the NFCE, and is a NJ guy. Seemed like the perfect set of training wheels - in Mara's eyes - to guide Judge through the learning curve as a first time ever HC.
Regarding the posters who think Judge is making personnel decisions, I think there’s a fairly large and hopeful contingent here that subscribe to that theory. Alas, it a theory, I may be dead wrong about this as well. But, either way, my point remains, Getty and the Mara’s have their hands all over this team. If anything, Judge probably has less influence than many of us suspect if for only the sheer enormity of the base responsibility for any NFL HC.
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In comment 15352409 trueblueinpw said:
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I don’t think Judge is swinging some big dick around the Meadowlands and calling all the shots for the Giants. This doesn’t track with who Gettleman has always been and it certainly doesn’t track with who we know the Mara’s have always been. I think it’s just fantasy to think to that Judge is the secret leader of the New York Football Giants.
How does that even make any sense for a guy that was completely off anyone’s radar as a HC candidate? “Thanks Mr Mara, appreciate the HC offer but just one condition, I’ll be making the player personnel decisions.” And John Mara was like, “no problem Joe, you got carte blanche but we just have to pretend that me and Dave are making the decisions. Welcome aboard kid!”
And the Mara’s and Getty would agree to Judge’s supreme influence because… Wait, why would they agree to such enormous influence for Judge? His special teams coaching in NE? He worked for Saban plotting plays? Belichicks glowing recommendation? (And all the renowned success of Little Bill’s coaching tree)?
Or did Mara give Judge the keys to the Big Blue castle after last season’s stunning and unequivocal success for the first time ever HC Judge?
And from a practical standpoint how does this work? Getty and Chris Mara have Slater as the first pick but Judge stands up in the war rooms and overrules and picks KT? “Need more speed on offense guys. My call right John? Hey Chris, grab me a Coke while you’re up”.
Further, let’s say it's true and Judge is twirling his shvantz around the building and telling everyone what to do. What’s that say about the rest of the org? The second year head coach who finished with a losing record is now influencing all football decision? And this is our hope to turn things around?
Anyway…
I think Judge is going to be a good head coach. I do. But I’m not convinced he’ll be a successful HC for the Giants. Especially considering the way Getty has built out this roster. Aside from KA, how many GMs are going to want to come in and not be able to pick their own HC? And what if Judge doesn’t like the new GM? There’s a lot that can still go wrong for the Giants even if Judge is a really solid HC. It’s not how I would run the organization but, I don’t run it. And neither does Joe Judge. The Giants are run by John Mara and his family. And they probably always will be.
I don't even know of any posters claiming that Judge is making all of the personnel decisions.
The Giants claim collaboration. If that is the case, how do we know where praise and blame should be directed?
You stated it a fact that Mara hired Garrett.
You keep missing it. Posters have naturally gravitated towards Judge because he is new blood, sounds the part and took a bad roster last year and got a decent amount out of it. And maybe because they are just simply tired of hitching their wagon to Gettleman since he has been, well... awful.
But those posters though cannot just leave Getts behind altogether so they remark how good of a collaborative team Judge and Getts are. When it looks more and more like Judge is picking up the slack that is created by a poor GM. Getts still likely has too much involvement because, as mentioned before, there is a lot to do in running football operations, but at least its something that is being mitigating more and more.
Don't concern yourself with where blame and praise go if you can't see it. Just watch the Giants...
Who are these posters? Am I being unreasonable? Googs, you are assuming on someone's intent. If someone who you see as a defender starts praising judge for roster moves why are they automatically shifting to save face?
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Daniel Jeremiah just tweeted this out.
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Daniel Jeremiah @MoveTheSticks
1h
Now that the rosters are set, good time to revisit-
Checklist for building a championship foundation in today's NFL
Role/Number of players
QB (1)
Pass rusher (2)
Off Playmaker (3)
Def Playmaker (3)
Quality OL (3)
Which teams hit every mark?
I really Jeremiah, but I think he has the wrong ranking.
QB #1 for sure. But I would put OL firmly #2.
In today's NFL, there is such a premium on scoring/offense that a quality OL makes it so much easier to play the game (along with the QB of course).
BW thats not a ranking, it's # of capable players at those positions
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No clue if Mara was instrumental in Garrett getting hired, but I believe John thinks very highly of JG so...who knows? I don't think he dissuaded JJ from hiring him, I'll put it like that.
I've always believed that Mara strongly encouraged Judge to take Garrett as his OC. Garrett has HC experience, knows the NFCE, played in the NFCE, and is a NJ guy. Seemed like the perfect set of training wheels - in Mara's eyes - to guide Judge through the learning curve as a first time ever HC.
Considering JG also has ties to Nick Saban I don’t think he remains this long unless Judge also gets a good report.
Well, they never say who the five execs are, and only let you assume that they are even from five different teams. Two of the five could be Eagles execs. Or maybe even all five, with two being more realistic than the other three.
Really, this is all a lot of hubbub over five (FIVE!) whole unnamed "execs" (not a very specific title) and their worthless opinions.
Regarding the posters who think Judge is making personnel decisions, I think there’s a fairly large and hopeful contingent here that subscribe to that theory. Alas, it a theory, I may be dead wrong about this as well. But, either way, my point remains, Getty and the Mara’s have their hands all over this team. If anything, Judge probably has less influence than many of us suspect if for only the sheer enormity of the base responsibility for any NFL HC.
Agree with most of this. Although Judge is clearly being included and active in personnel decisions over past year, he is just not orchestrating them...that's the GM.
He will get his opportunities the next 2 seasons but not sure what will happen to him after that.
He will get his opportunities the next 2 seasons but not sure what will happen to him after that.
If he doesn't take the leap this year I don't see him getting 2022 but also have his 5th year option declined. Especially because if he doesn't take a large leap there's likely going to be a new GM
I've always believed that Mara strongly encouraged Judge to take Garrett as his OC. Garrett has HC experience, knows the NFCE, played in the NFCE, and is a NJ guy. Seemed like the perfect set of training wheels - in Mara's eyes - to guide Judge through the learning curve as a first time ever HC.
..And that's why I'm in the very small minority that are not fans of Judge. You do not hire a guy who needs "training wheels" to be the head coach of an NFL team. I'm not sure how you hire a guy who has no head coaching experience at the pro or college level (or as a pro offensive or defensive coordinator) to lead your football team. Apparently the only qualification necessary for a high level job in the Giants organization is whether Acorsi or Belichick like you.
Maybe someday Judge will become a successful head coach but I'm not a fan of the NY Giants being the training ground for that potential success. Give me a proven program builder at the college level (Matt Ruhle anyone?) or a young, innovative and successful coordinator of an NFL offense or defense.
2017 for your viewing pleasure.
NFC East
1. Dallas Cowboys (12-4)
2. New York Giants (10-6)
3. Philadelphia Eagles (6-10)
4. Washington Redskins (5-11)
2017 nfl preseason predictions - ( New Window )