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The Giants converted $5.985M of WR Sterling Shepard’s base salary into a signing bonus, creating $3.99M in cap space.
Sterling’s cap charges go up by $1.995M in 2022-2023, while New York gets 2021 space.
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Which is much too high. This will force a base salary renegotiation next offseason.
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
The injuries are a killer but I don't think the contract is bad in terms of structure. His AAV comes in around 26 among veteran WR's.
Bronx - the 26th is the problem. Sterling is more like the 40-50th best WR in the league and should probably be getting around $7-8mm a year. Maybe you are right that I should have just written that it was a “botch” and not a “total botch”. I don’t consider this a disaster but it’s representative of the sloppiness and minor mistakes all over the Giants team building.
The Giants cleared a substantial amount of space, and now are having to move more.
The risk is next year, when the Giants are presumably closer to contention, they’ll have fewer dollars to add depth because they used it this year.
I’d point to both Sterlings original 2019 contract and this offseason’s signings as causes.
I’ll add that in their favor the Giants have one of the smaller dead cap hit totals in 2021. But they are a young rebuilding team, so it should be that way.
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In comment 15355820 cosmicj said:
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Which is much too high. This will force a base salary renegotiation next offseason.
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
The injuries are a killer but I don't think the contract is bad in terms of structure. His AAV comes in around 26 among veteran WR's.
Bronx - the 26th is the problem. Sterling is more like the 40-50th best WR in the league and should probably be getting around $7-8mm a year. Maybe you are right that I should have just written that it was a “botch” and not a “total botch”. I don’t consider this a disaster but it’s representative of the sloppiness and minor mistakes all over the Giants team building.
If you look at where his contract lands for veterans on multi year deals he's basically at the bottom of the list. I did some calculations and his production if he were to stay on the field is solidly in the 20-30 range for receptions and TDs, he's maybe a little lower on yards.
That's why I said the big key is him staying on the field. He produces at a rate worthy of that contract but it looks worse because he's only playing 2/3rds of the year.
I completely understand that point but contracts at the position don't make this look like a huge overpay when you look at what other comparable players are getting paid in this league. Randall Cobb and Jamison Crowder are the best comps I can find in terms of players who have had issues staying healthy and they signed a very similar deal to Shepard as far as AAV.
Shepards deal is basically the minimum vets WR's get paid on multi-year contracts for players his age. The market dictates this isn't an overpay even though the pure numbers feel like that.
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In comment 15355820 cosmicj said:
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Which is much too high. This will force a base salary renegotiation next offseason.
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
The injuries are a killer but I don't think the contract is bad in terms of structure. His AAV comes in around 26 among veteran WR's.
Bronx - the 26th is the problem. Sterling is more like the 40-50th best WR in the league and should probably be getting around $7-8mm a year. Maybe you are right that I should have just written that it was a “botch” and not a “total botch”. I don’t consider this a disaster but it’s representative of the sloppiness and minor mistakes all over the Giants team building.
Basically what I'm getting at is did you think the Giants should have let him walk in 2019? If the answer is Yes that I get your point. If you wanted them to resign him, this was a fine deal as there was no way they were getting him for less. He would have been wearing the jersey of another team.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
No plan? What do you call stockpiling picks in next years very deep draft?
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This is also what happens when you have a GM that knows he has to win now. Gettleman couldn't give a shit about 2022 because he knows he may be out after 2021.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
No plan? What do you call stockpiling picks in next years very deep draft?
An enticement for a new quality GM...
And it was borne from an inflated second contract on Shepard, Gettleman being outnegotiated by Team Williams, and big time spending spree in free agency this past year.
Mentioned on another thread, its nice to have Owners that let the GM spend up to the cap limit each year to build a winning team. But we're all still waiting...
Too, Restructuring of younger players is fine with me, especially given how we rocked the off-season (with health) and it’s a very small price to pay, imv
the numbers quite obviously point towards the reality that this roster is very young has been mostly rebuilt through the draft.
whether or not the plan succeeds will largely depend on how good their evaluations were (their 3 highest picks Jones, Thomas, and Barkley are obviously perhaps the 3 biggest variables for this season).
But since you think DG and everyone at the top is incompetent, how would you handle things? (yes this is a call out, put your money where your mouth is)
they have a shit ton of picks next year with possible comp picks coming for engram and peppers. there was no reason to lock themselves into shep for another year or absorb a cap hit from him. as noted, they just drafted toney. they will still have slayton. cutting shep after this year was the biggest no brainer decision this team could make
The sad part is, I believe you're right: this roster is likely the best Dave Gettleman could do. Which is why I don't know why he still has a job.
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They upgraded the roster as much as possible
The sad part is, I believe you're right: this roster is likely the best Dave Gettleman could do. Which is why I don't know why he still has a job.
that's a plus one...
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One of DG's past strengths hasn't panned out so far as GM, and it puts strain on the structure. The drafts must begin to pay off, especially the big three ...
they have a shit ton of picks next year with possible comp picks coming for engram and peppers. there was no reason to lock themselves into shep for another year or absorb a cap hit from him. as noted, they just drafted toney. they will still have slayton. cutting shep after this year was the biggest no brainer decision this team could make
I wouldn't have drafted Toney, they needed a WR to push Slayton more, imv. Not to mention Toney's a fookin ding dong.
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In comment 15356242 JonC said:
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One of DG's past strengths hasn't panned out so far as GM, and it puts strain on the structure. The drafts must begin to pay off, especially the big three ...
they have a shit ton of picks next year with possible comp picks coming for engram and peppers. there was no reason to lock themselves into shep for another year or absorb a cap hit from him. as noted, they just drafted toney. they will still have slayton. cutting shep after this year was the biggest no brainer decision this team could make
I wouldn't have drafted Toney, they needed a WR to push Slayton more, imv. Not to mention Toney's a fookin ding dong.
i agree with you 1,000%. but they did draft toney. so with that being the case, i don't understand this decision
is this already admitting a mistake with their most recent 1st round pick?
also as noted they have options to replace shep via the draft next year with all their picks. no reason to stay locked in to a horrible contract for an oft injured and non-difference making player
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In comment 15356242 JonC said:
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One of DG's past strengths hasn't panned out so far as GM, and it puts strain on the structure. The drafts must begin to pay off, especially the big three ...
they have a shit ton of picks next year with possible comp picks coming for engram and peppers. there was no reason to lock themselves into shep for another year or absorb a cap hit from him. as noted, they just drafted toney. they will still have slayton. cutting shep after this year was the biggest no brainer decision this team could make
I wouldn't have drafted Toney, they needed a WR to push Slayton more, imv. Not to mention Toney's a fookin ding dong.
Stop picking on Toney.
He got injured somehow while out of practice; caught Covid because he wasn't vaccinated; missed some camp time because he was negotiating a relatively fixed contract; and of course he had cleats that didn't fit.
It's all upside from here...
I still wouldn't have drafted the ding dong lol.
Maybe there is no plan. But you can't argue that signing a bunch of FA this year means Gettleman is all in on saving himself, then discount that he traded for future picks.
You are just seeing what you want to see and making shit up.
Heck maybe there is no plan, or maybe the plan sucks, but so doesn't you argument if you can only see it through one lens.
I'd like to solve the puzzle:
__________ if you do, _________ if you don't
(i'd have done the trade down just for the chicago pick btw, irrespective of projecting out whoever was left at #20 so this isn't a knock on trade downs).
As for what my plan would be - it depends on what the starting point is. I've been pretty clear since they made the mistake of drafting Barkley that this front office stinks, and what I would do differently.
If you're asking what I would do starting today, there's little that can be done. Season starts Sunday. I can tell you that the moment this team dips below .500 I'd start trading whatever players I can for draft picks. My full expectation is that a new project will be starting in 2022 or 2023 at the latest - I'd try to enter that period with as much cap space and as many draft picks as possible.
That's step one. Step two is to replace Gettleman and Garrett with people that know what year it is.
I'd like to solve the puzzle:
__________ if you do, _________ if you don't
(i'd have done the trade down just for the chicago pick btw, irrespective of projecting out whoever was left at #20 so this isn't a knock on trade downs).
What's your problem with those that support the trade down deal but not with who was later selected in Rd 1?
They actually can be looked at independently which shouldn't be puzzling...
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and the player selected is a bad pick sight unseen.
I'd like to solve the puzzle:
__________ if you do, _________ if you don't
(i'd have done the trade down just for the chicago pick btw, irrespective of projecting out whoever was left at #20 so this isn't a knock on trade downs).
What's your problem with those that support the trade down deal but not with who was later selected in Rd 1?
They actually can be looked at independently which shouldn't be puzzling...
You are right and I really don't think that was what was meant. They could have gone in another direction with the #20 pick. A lot of people liked Moore. Judge liked Toney. Judge probably thought that he has Golladay and Slayton, two regular WRs so he looked for a Tyrek Hill playmaker. They may have gone OT if AVT made it that far.
But yes you can like the trade down and like a different player at #20.
I didn't like it at the time but I'm willing to give the Toney pick a chance. But this Shepard restructuring reminds me too much of the Solder restructured deal - again trying to fix a cap problem by giving more guaranteed money to non-difference-making players.
And it's hard to imagine the scenario where it's proven out that the decisions regarding the WR group were all correct. If Shepard plays well, and Toney struggles, then it was a poor draft selection. If Toney plays well, and Shepard doesn't, then it was a bad reinvestment in Shep. If they both play well, then you have to question how much production Golladay (the big FA signing) was able to provide.
If all 3 of those guys are great this year then of course it's Yahtzee - Daniel Jones and the OLine would likely to have also been terrific, and you have a top tier offense. But I think that is the least likely scenario.
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and the player selected is a bad pick sight unseen.
I'd like to solve the puzzle:
__________ if you do, _________ if you don't
(i'd have done the trade down just for the chicago pick btw, irrespective of projecting out whoever was left at #20 so this isn't a knock on trade downs).
What's your problem with those that support the trade down deal but not with who was later selected in Rd 1?
They actually can be looked at independently which shouldn't be puzzling...
i think there's a lack of acknowledgement of the reality that that is the exact downside of a trade down. that there are going to have lesser prospects available to choose from. and inversely that's why teams trade up - to get the chance to draft better prospects. if the goal was a higher ranked prospect they likely had to stay at #11 and take AVT or Slater and forgo CHI's 2022 first. There's no magical 3rd option where they get the trade down and get a top 10 prospect (or at least it's highly unlikely at #20).
also the fact that we haven't seen Toney take a live snap yet. I too have disagreed with plenty of picks made in real time too and were I drafting for the nyg I probably would have taken Moore or Rousseau (I didn't think they'd even have toney on their board). but i certainly am not ready to declare myself right and them wrong before even seeing them all play in a regular season game. not to mention the fact that both players i liked stayed on the board for a while so clearly other nfl teams didn't agree with me.
So you decided to extrapolate that out and make a bigger deal of it that Gettleman/Giants get criticized by everybody/anybody on BBI now whether they trade down or not. And I am telling you...that is not a fair account.
Very simply, fans can like the trade down deal without liking who they ultimately chose at #20. That those points can be looked at completely independent of one another.
I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
I feel the same way about the trade down and the Toney pick. The trade down was a huge win IMO but I was shocked that they took Toney because nobody saw it coming. Toney is talented enough to go that high but if he disappoints it will hurt especially if any of the offensive linemen go on to have great careers.
If Jones isn't the answer and struggles this season then we will all be very grateful that the Giants traded down this year.
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I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
I feel the same way about the trade down and the Toney pick. The trade down was a huge win IMO but I was shocked that they took Toney because nobody saw it coming. Toney is talented enough to go that high but if he disappoints it will hurt especially if any of the offensive linemen go on to have great careers.
If Jones isn't the answer and struggles this season then we will all be very grateful that the Giants traded down this year.
Yep, agree.
But also need to have top QBs worth taking next year. And a new GM that knows how to scout them, but that is a thread for another day...
So the thing Toney has is superb quickness, elusiveness and shiftiness. Is that transferable to the NFL? And how many extra yards per completion does that shiftiness generate?
Because of the way the draft fell out, I question whether Toney was as fully evaluated by the Giants as he should have been.
And then there’s the fact that he’s a ding dong,
I'm pumped for the future of this team.
I mean he brought in Gates as an UDFA and Lemiuex already looks solid value for a 5th rounder. We know he can run block. Hernandez looks like a different player this year as well. We'll find out more about AT and Peart (I'm bullish on AT and bearish on Peart). They clearly wanted AVT to fall to 20 but he didn't and probably would have been the pick had we not got that sweet offer.
His biggest mistake was the Solder contract, but it seemed like the whole organization was desperate to give Eli one last chance and it clouded the entire orginizations judgement.
So the thing Toney has is superb quickness, elusiveness and shiftiness. Is that transferable to the NFL? And how many extra yards per completion does that shiftiness generate?
Because of the way the draft fell out, I question whether Toney was as fully evaluated by the Giants as he should have been.
And then there’s the fact that he’s a ding dong,
Yeah, Toney is not 4.6.
He's a ding dong? What is a ding dong and you know this how?
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I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
I feel the same way about the trade down and the Toney pick. The trade down was a huge win IMO but I was shocked that they took Toney because nobody saw it coming. Toney is talented enough to go that high but if he disappoints it will hurt especially if any of the offensive linemen go on to have great careers.
If Jones isn't the answer and struggles this season then we will all be very grateful that the Giants traded down this year.
why? this QB class sucks. if jones isn't the answer you should be making the case that they shouldn't have traded down and just drafted fields. fields is significantly better than the players in this class
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The way I see it Percy Harvin, an upper echelon gadget player with 4.4 speed, was drafted right around where Toney was. Toney in contrast plays some special teams and probably runs in the 4.5-4.6 range. That speed downgrade makes him look right away like an overdraft. He’s more like a high 2nd rounder.
So the thing Toney has is superb quickness, elusiveness and shiftiness. Is that transferable to the NFL? And how many extra yards per completion does that shiftiness generate?
Because of the way the draft fell out, I question whether Toney was as fully evaluated by the Giants as he should have been.
And then there’s the fact that he’s a ding dong,
Yeah, Toney is not 4.6.
He's a ding dong? What is a ding dong and you know this how?
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In comment 15356415 cosmicj said:
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The way I see it Percy Harvin, an upper echelon gadget player with 4.4 speed, was drafted right around where Toney was. Toney in contrast plays some special teams and probably runs in the 4.5-4.6 range. That speed downgrade makes him look right away like an overdraft. He’s more like a high 2nd rounder.
So the thing Toney has is superb quickness, elusiveness and shiftiness. Is that transferable to the NFL? And how many extra yards per completion does that shiftiness generate?
Because of the way the draft fell out, I question whether Toney was as fully evaluated by the Giants as he should have been.
And then there’s the fact that he’s a ding dong,
Yeah, Toney is not 4.6.
He's a ding dong? What is a ding dong and you know this how?
Like the poster...
In comment 15356350 Jimmy Googs said:
Very simply, fans can like the trade down deal without liking who they ultimately chose at #20. That those points can be looked at completely independent of one another.
I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
In comment 15356350 Jimmy Googs said:
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Very simply, fans can like the trade down deal without liking who they ultimately chose at #20. That those points can be looked at completely independent of one another.
I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
Ok. I guess your point was lost with the insertion of that puzzle for no particular reason.
:-)
I may have missed that
I may have missed that
Maybe it was he took a horse dewormer. I forget...
I may have missed that
NGD - I have no idea. Was only surmising that Toney was unvaccinated.
Shep aint Jerry Rice but he is a reliable player who at times makes great plays to keep drives alive.
That is what we need as well as superstars at every position which no team has.
Man, it is so tiresome reading your posts.
Root for the Giants or get the hell off of here!
Terribly run organization.
Terribly run organization.
So leave.