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Field Yates
@FieldYates
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4m
The Giants converted $5.985M of WR Sterling Shepard’s base salary into a signing bonus, creating $3.99M in cap space.
Sterling’s cap charges go up by $1.995M in 2022-2023, while New York gets 2021 space.
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I though Shep was a goner after this year but it would be nice to keep him around as he looks great this preseason. Interested to see what kind of year he has and if he's healthy.
I don't think either of those are the biggest concerns. The biggest concern is his concussions.
When Shep reaches 'wily-veteran' status, maybe he'll have a move that pays off for us again and again.
make first downs.
And when you trace the 10-year downward spiral of this franchise, you'll see a team that can't make third downs very often.
Sterling Shepard is a very important player!
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
They'll almost certainly have to add a voidable year, but I think they'll end up with a couple of those.
His contract isn't the greatest value out there but it's far from an Albert Haynesworth or Landon Collins debacle.
As far as Jones, Barkley and Thomas are concerned, I agree the FO has to have the discipline to pay them in line with their performance, not draft status.
I have no problems with restructures in the abstract, but you don't do it on a bad or questionable contract to make it even harder to get out of. They should have restructured a contract like Leonard Williams
@twentee7
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50m
The Giants are using 2022 to pay 2021 salaries of Ryan, Jackson, Shep, and LW because they’re using 2021 to pay for Golden Tate and Solder and the bills that couldn’t be paid in 2019 because Eli needed 17 million to get benched after Week 2
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
The injuries are a killer but I don't think the contract is bad in terms of structure. His AAV comes in around 26 among veteran WR's. His stat lines for the seasons he has been health basically put him in line with that ranking, same if you prorate his stats last year over 16 games. His production hasn't fallen off when he is on the field so he's still the same player you paid for.
The Giants need him to stay healthy which I think will determine whether or not he's here next year. The Giants can move on and get 8.5 million back if they designate him as a post 6/1 cut so they have an out.
This type of cap moving will be happening for the rest of time. As long as a team has the flexibility it really doesn't matter in the long run. We saw it this year with the Giants who supposedly didn't have space to make any big signings and went after it aggressively.
His contract over the next two years is going to get pushed further and further down the list. 2018 1st round receivers have a cap hit of 11 million next year and Shep is already on the lower end of veteran receivers with multi-year contracts.
I tend to think of a total botch as someone who does not produce at all as well as a contract that completely hamstrings the team. This contract hasn't stopped the Giants from anything they want to do and is not one of the top WR deals in the league.
If you look at the top 10 or 12 contracts - i.e. what we are paying for now - the only obvious mistake is Solder ($9.5 hit). You could argue Saquon or Thomas, but a little soon in my book. In terms of dead money Tate, Baker, and Odenigbo were all mistakes in my book. Zeitler was not. All that is about $12.5MM
My point is the direct cause of the maneuvering is all the talent brought in over 2020 and 2021. Whether that is worth it will depend on this year. And maybe next. If we had done a great job drafting over the last 10 years, don't think it would be much different - we would just be paying our former draft choices.
Additionally, it looks like almost everything is in the next two year window. By 2023, outside of rookie contracts the only real big dead money is williams and Golladay. My recollection from last year is that contracts were pretty front end loaded compared to what is often done.
shep by the way is someone who can't stay healthy (which also begs the question why do this now with him) and someone who was the ideal person to release after this season and get out from his horrible contract. he's an overpaid, oft-injured slot player who isn't overly fast and doesn't stretch the field. simply put he is an average to slightly above average player who makes way to much money for what he actually brings to the field. he is also not a good outside receiver and is better in the slot
i bring up that last point, because if you wanted to keep shep beyond this year, why the hell did they draft toney in the first round? toney is best in the slot, though he can play outside, and the team has now invested significantly in two slot receivers. let's see how did that work out last time when we had tate and shep? oh right, it was a total failure. but beyond that, if you were going to commit to shep beyond this season, why draft toney at all? you're going to use a first round pick on a #3 WR and gadget guy / returner? when darrisaw was on the board? when you could have traded down again and grabbed offensive lineman? it's just once again an absolutely awful use of resources
the toney pick made sense in that he would replace shep after this year, freeing up a lot of cap space for the team. absent that, please tell me why we used a first round pick on him
Saquon shouldn't be an issue as he's still under contract for 2022 so they can structure his deal to basically start in 2023 and possibly lower his 2022 cap hit in the process. Cutting Solder will also bring back 14 million which makes up that cap difference and gives them about 8 million of cap space. They'll have other moves they can make as well to create more room.
In comment 15355851 Sean said:
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Will
@twentee7
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50m
The Giants are using 2022 to pay 2021 salaries of Ryan, Jackson, Shep, and LW because they’re using 2021 to pay for Golden Tate and Solder and the bills that couldn’t be paid in 2019 because Eli needed 17 million to get benched after Week 2
the nyg are currently 18th in dead money - so not exactly an outlier of cap mismanagement. OTC also published this chart yesterday indicating they have one of the youngest rosters in the nfl (specifically the youngest defense in the NFL, which obviously played pretty well last year and looks to be deeper this year).
they put in big bets on Golladay and Jackson. And obviously on Jones/Thomas/Toney/Barkley via draft. Maybe we should let them play a game together as giants before determining it all a failure?
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Will
@twentee7
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50m
The Giants are using 2022 to pay 2021 salaries of Ryan, Jackson, Shep, and LW because they’re using 2021 to pay for Golden Tate and Solder and the bills that couldn’t be paid in 2019 because Eli needed 17 million to get benched after Week 2
Brutal. And also shocking considering our GM and our "salary cap expert" are supposedly fantastic at their jobs.
The Giants have a lot of players with a second contract coming up who shouldn’t get that contract because they haven’t earned it. Hernandez, Barkley, Engram, Peppers. Carter. If they play great this year, then try to give them a second contract. If not, bye bye.
Letting Tomlinson go may prove to be a mistake, but in that case, it would have been hard to justify the contract based on his value to the team and he was at a position where 90% of his production can be easily replaced.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
Over those same two years the Giants paid Colt McCoy and Eli Manning 18.4M as backups.
There were savings out there in the back up market.
Hell, if Fitzpatrick is the Giants back up last year, they might have gone to the playoffs.
4yrs 41m is a reasonable deal for him too.The cap planning took a little hit because of the revenue drop last year which was pretty hard to predict.
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
^This.
They spent a ton of money on the Titans corner.
He needs to produce and help create a dominate D or that was a terrible move.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
The dumb is strong in this post. Do you realize you’re talking about a GM who traded down twice for extra 2022 picks?
4yrs 41m is a reasonable deal for him too.The cap planning took a little hit because of the revenue drop last year which was pretty hard to predict.
stop with the rational thinking please. clearly there were much better players available at a much lower cost.
The Giants currently have the least amount of dead money on the books for the 2022 season.
The Giants cleared a substantial amount of space, and now are having to move more.
The risk is next year, when the Giants are presumably closer to contention, they’ll have fewer dollars to add depth because they used it this year.
The Giants currently have the least amount of dead money on the books for the 2022 season.
You could add to that the expectation the cap goes up next year. But pausing and thinking rationally isn’t popular around here these days.
The Giants cleared a substantial amount of space, and now are having to move more.
The risk is next year, when the Giants are presumably closer to contention, they’ll have fewer dollars to add depth because they used it this year.
they seem to be anticipating that to be the case and wisely added draft capital. I think it's pretty clever that they've put themselves in a position where either:
- Jones proves he's the guy, they have a lot of draft capital to improve the team around him without as much need of big $ UFA (which is always risky anyway).
- Jones proves he isn't the guy, they have draft capital to secure a QB and essentially vacate the future cap he would have cost with a 2nd contract to have more flexibility (whether that's used to extend other players or do more via UFA).
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would be lower today than when then signed him>
The Giants currently have the least amount of dead money on the books for the 2022 season.
You could add to that the expectation the cap goes up next year. But pausing and thinking rationally isn’t popular around here these days.
The point is a team with as many 8 figure cap hits as the Giants do, while still probably being under .500 again is not a good thing.
The Giants cleared a substantial amount of space, and now are having to move more.
The risk is next year, when the Giants are presumably closer to contention, they’ll have fewer dollars to add depth because they used it this year.
They're in a pretty decent spot next year. They have 43 rostered players. That will be 42 after they cut Solder, there's no chance he stays around. That cut will get them some cap room and extending Saquon will probably create a little more with the way they structure his deal.
They have 11 draft picks as well so I think we'll see churn with people like Davante Booker as they can get out of his contract and help create room to re-sign Peppers if that's the plan.
2022 will be the year of extending our own players while adding 2 first-round picks to the fold along with another draft class. Any FA signings should be to add depth on reasonable deals.
As I posted above, I don’t think these minor moves are a tragedy, but they do add up and on the fringes, and can keep you from adding depth.
No one wants to be kicking the can, it’s a necessary evil. Good cap management is about avoiding it as much as possible.
Nate Solder doesn’t need to be cut, his final year was voided. There’s no cap savings to be had, he will have a cap charge of 4M dead money.
shep by the way is someone who can't stay healthy (which also begs the question why do this now with him) and someone who was the ideal person to release after this season and get out from his horrible contract. he's an overpaid, oft-injured slot player who isn't overly fast and doesn't stretch the field. simply put he is an average to slightly above average player who makes way to much money for what he actually brings to the field. he is also not a good outside receiver and is better in the slot
i bring up that last point, because if you wanted to keep shep beyond this year, why the hell did they draft toney in the first round? toney is best in the slot, though he can play outside, and the team has now invested significantly in two slot receivers. let's see how did that work out last time when we had tate and shep? oh right, it was a total failure. but beyond that, if you were going to commit to shep beyond this season, why draft toney at all? you're going to use a first round pick on a #3 WR and gadget guy / returner? when darrisaw was on the board? when you could have traded down again and grabbed offensive lineman? it's just once again an absolutely awful use of resources
the toney pick made sense in that he would replace shep after this year, freeing up a lot of cap space for the team. absent that, please tell me why we used a first round pick on him
DG is desperately trying to keep his job.
If Jones continues to suck, this is a 5 win team . If that happens Judge could be gone too because a new GM is going to want his own guy as HC
you can very easily next year convert some salary into a guarantee and save money on the cap. offer 1/2 of the salary as a guarantee and you save $4M off the cap. To me this is a non issue
In comment 15355944 christian said:
As I posted above, I don’t think these minor moves are a tragedy, but they do add up and on the fringes, and can keep you from adding depth.
No one wants to be kicking the can, it’s a necessary evil. Good cap management is about avoiding it as much as possible.
my point was simply that the nyg have seemed to hedge themselves against their gambles.
if Jones gets to a 2nd contract, that will make things tight against the cap. But they will have a franchise QB presumably worth a 2nd contract.
if Jones doesn't get to a 2nd contract, they will have a solid veteran roster and then likely find another rookie QB to restart the "cheap QB years" clock.
their cap management is way down the list of my concerns.
you can very easily next year convert some salary into a guarantee and save money on the cap. offer 1/2 of the salary as a guarantee and you save $4M off the cap. To me this is a non issue
This is what the Giants did today, and what you’d like to avoid doing in the future.
It seems to be the history of recent Giants management. They sport a losing record and never have cap space.
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Will
@twentee7
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50m
The Giants are using 2022 to pay 2021 salaries of Ryan, Jackson, Shep, and LW because they’re using 2021 to pay for Golden Tate and Solder and the bills that couldn’t be paid in 2019 because Eli needed 17 million to get benched after Week 2
While likely true, that guy is such a fucking crybaby.
i'm not a fan of restructuring an oft-injured guy like shepard but the giants have much bigger problems to worry about on the offensive side
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This is also what happens when you have a GM that knows he has to win now. Gettleman couldn't give a shit about 2022 because he knows he may be out after 2021.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
The dumb is strong in this post. Do you realize you’re talking about a GM who traded down twice for extra 2022 picks?
Beat me to it.
Judge is building HIS vision of a team. Some guys we like will be gone in 22 or 23, in part the cap, in part where talent for his vision does not value out at the contract.
Our 5 picks in the top 3 rounds will likely look for OL, WR, DT/ DE and LB to evolve out of the big contracts of KG, LW, Solder, and possibly Maritinez, if the talent is there this draft.
The organization has spent decades being player loyal, sometimes to a fault.
We are now in 21st century football business operations, finally. That’s what DG has been trying to do, while giving ownership much of what they still wanted.
He now has an ally in JJ .
Change is a process.
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In comment 15355887 Go Terps said:
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This is also what happens when you have a GM that knows he has to win now. Gettleman couldn't give a shit about 2022 because he knows he may be out after 2021.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
The dumb is strong in this post. Do you realize you’re talking about a GM who traded down twice for extra 2022 picks?
Beat me to it.
Judge is building HIS vision of a team. Some guys we like will be gone in 22 or 23, in part the cap, in part where talent for his vision does not value out at the contract.
Our 5 picks in the top 3 rounds will likely look for OL, WR, DT/ DE and LB to evolve out of the big contracts of KG, LW, Solder, and possibly Maritinez, if the talent is there this draft.
The organization has spent decades being player loyal, sometimes to a fault.
We are now in 21st century football business operations, finally. That’s what DG has been trying to do, while giving ownership much of what they still wanted.
He now has an ally in JJ .
Change is a process.
Ah yes the guy who signed the corpse of Johnathan Stewart for the sole reason he had him in Carolina is the anti player loyalty guy
The Giants cleared a substantial amount of space, and now are having to move more.
The risk is next year, when the Giants are presumably closer to contention, they’ll have fewer dollars to add depth because they used it this year.
The counter balance is draftees are cheaper and moving picks to get quality and production (college) vs diamond in the rough and projects .... Also IF Jones does not take the step get the best rookie QB available and if we dont do well may not need to trade up and if we do should not be cost prohibitive (no future picks in rd 1) we have multiple 1s in 2022
i'm not a fan of restructuring an oft-injured guy like shepard but the giants have much bigger problems to worry about on the offensive side
The Giants had no choice with Solder this year because his dead money for being cut would have been really high. Once he decided to come back and not retire he wasn't moving from this roster. They got him to change his deal but next year they can separate from him much more easily. If he doesn't play well this year they can basically cut him for any other replacement level RT and save money to be in the same spot.
Now obviously Peart becoming a serviceable player at the least would make this even easier. But yeah they have picks they can invest and if Thomas doesn't work out at LT you can invest one of those 2 1st rounders for a LT and try swinging Thomas to RT.
You can't pay Solder a 4 million dollar roster bonus on the first day of the league year when releasing him saves you 14 million dollars. Even if you want to bring him back you have to release him first unless they can convince him to play for the veteran minimum salary and pay out his roster bonus since they'd have the same amount of dead cap letting him go.
The Giants cleared a substantial amount of space, and now are having to move more.
The risk is next year, when the Giants are presumably closer to contention, they’ll have fewer dollars to add depth because they used it this year.
The counter balance is draftees are cheaper and moving picks to get quality and production (college) vs diamond in the rough and projects can be done easily. Also IF Jones does not take the next step then get the best rookie QB available and if we dont do well may not need to trade up and if we do it should not be cost prohibitive (no future picks in rd 1) we have multiple 1s in 2022
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Which is much too high. This will force a base salary renegotiation next offseason.
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
The injuries are a killer but I don't think the contract is bad in terms of structure. His AAV comes in around 26 among veteran WR's.
Bronx - the 26th is the problem. Sterling is more like the 40-50th best WR in the league and should probably be getting around $7-8mm a year. Maybe you are right that I should have just written that it was a “botch” and not a “total botch”. I don’t consider this a disaster but it’s representative of the sloppiness and minor mistakes all over the Giants team building.
The Giants cleared a substantial amount of space, and now are having to move more.
The risk is next year, when the Giants are presumably closer to contention, they’ll have fewer dollars to add depth because they used it this year.
I’d point to both Sterlings original 2019 contract and this offseason’s signings as causes.
I’ll add that in their favor the Giants have one of the smaller dead cap hit totals in 2021. But they are a young rebuilding team, so it should be that way.
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In comment 15355820 cosmicj said:
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Which is much too high. This will force a base salary renegotiation next offseason.
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
The injuries are a killer but I don't think the contract is bad in terms of structure. His AAV comes in around 26 among veteran WR's.
Bronx - the 26th is the problem. Sterling is more like the 40-50th best WR in the league and should probably be getting around $7-8mm a year. Maybe you are right that I should have just written that it was a “botch” and not a “total botch”. I don’t consider this a disaster but it’s representative of the sloppiness and minor mistakes all over the Giants team building.
If you look at where his contract lands for veterans on multi year deals he's basically at the bottom of the list. I did some calculations and his production if he were to stay on the field is solidly in the 20-30 range for receptions and TDs, he's maybe a little lower on yards.
That's why I said the big key is him staying on the field. He produces at a rate worthy of that contract but it looks worse because he's only playing 2/3rds of the year.
I completely understand that point but contracts at the position don't make this look like a huge overpay when you look at what other comparable players are getting paid in this league. Randall Cobb and Jamison Crowder are the best comps I can find in terms of players who have had issues staying healthy and they signed a very similar deal to Shepard as far as AAV.
Shepards deal is basically the minimum vets WR's get paid on multi-year contracts for players his age. The market dictates this isn't an overpay even though the pure numbers feel like that.
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In comment 15355820 cosmicj said:
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Which is much too high. This will force a base salary renegotiation next offseason.
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
The injuries are a killer but I don't think the contract is bad in terms of structure. His AAV comes in around 26 among veteran WR's.
Bronx - the 26th is the problem. Sterling is more like the 40-50th best WR in the league and should probably be getting around $7-8mm a year. Maybe you are right that I should have just written that it was a “botch” and not a “total botch”. I don’t consider this a disaster but it’s representative of the sloppiness and minor mistakes all over the Giants team building.
Basically what I'm getting at is did you think the Giants should have let him walk in 2019? If the answer is Yes that I get your point. If you wanted them to resign him, this was a fine deal as there was no way they were getting him for less. He would have been wearing the jersey of another team.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
No plan? What do you call stockpiling picks in next years very deep draft?
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This is also what happens when you have a GM that knows he has to win now. Gettleman couldn't give a shit about 2022 because he knows he may be out after 2021.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
No plan? What do you call stockpiling picks in next years very deep draft?
An enticement for a new quality GM...
And it was borne from an inflated second contract on Shepard, Gettleman being outnegotiated by Team Williams, and big time spending spree in free agency this past year.
Mentioned on another thread, its nice to have Owners that let the GM spend up to the cap limit each year to build a winning team. But we're all still waiting...
Too, Restructuring of younger players is fine with me, especially given how we rocked the off-season (with health) and it’s a very small price to pay, imv
the numbers quite obviously point towards the reality that this roster is very young has been mostly rebuilt through the draft.
whether or not the plan succeeds will largely depend on how good their evaluations were (their 3 highest picks Jones, Thomas, and Barkley are obviously perhaps the 3 biggest variables for this season).
But since you think DG and everyone at the top is incompetent, how would you handle things? (yes this is a call out, put your money where your mouth is)
they have a shit ton of picks next year with possible comp picks coming for engram and peppers. there was no reason to lock themselves into shep for another year or absorb a cap hit from him. as noted, they just drafted toney. they will still have slayton. cutting shep after this year was the biggest no brainer decision this team could make
The sad part is, I believe you're right: this roster is likely the best Dave Gettleman could do. Which is why I don't know why he still has a job.
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They upgraded the roster as much as possible
The sad part is, I believe you're right: this roster is likely the best Dave Gettleman could do. Which is why I don't know why he still has a job.
that's a plus one...
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One of DG's past strengths hasn't panned out so far as GM, and it puts strain on the structure. The drafts must begin to pay off, especially the big three ...
they have a shit ton of picks next year with possible comp picks coming for engram and peppers. there was no reason to lock themselves into shep for another year or absorb a cap hit from him. as noted, they just drafted toney. they will still have slayton. cutting shep after this year was the biggest no brainer decision this team could make
I wouldn't have drafted Toney, they needed a WR to push Slayton more, imv. Not to mention Toney's a fookin ding dong.
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In comment 15356242 JonC said:
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One of DG's past strengths hasn't panned out so far as GM, and it puts strain on the structure. The drafts must begin to pay off, especially the big three ...
they have a shit ton of picks next year with possible comp picks coming for engram and peppers. there was no reason to lock themselves into shep for another year or absorb a cap hit from him. as noted, they just drafted toney. they will still have slayton. cutting shep after this year was the biggest no brainer decision this team could make
I wouldn't have drafted Toney, they needed a WR to push Slayton more, imv. Not to mention Toney's a fookin ding dong.
i agree with you 1,000%. but they did draft toney. so with that being the case, i don't understand this decision
is this already admitting a mistake with their most recent 1st round pick?
also as noted they have options to replace shep via the draft next year with all their picks. no reason to stay locked in to a horrible contract for an oft injured and non-difference making player
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In comment 15356242 JonC said:
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One of DG's past strengths hasn't panned out so far as GM, and it puts strain on the structure. The drafts must begin to pay off, especially the big three ...
they have a shit ton of picks next year with possible comp picks coming for engram and peppers. there was no reason to lock themselves into shep for another year or absorb a cap hit from him. as noted, they just drafted toney. they will still have slayton. cutting shep after this year was the biggest no brainer decision this team could make
I wouldn't have drafted Toney, they needed a WR to push Slayton more, imv. Not to mention Toney's a fookin ding dong.
Stop picking on Toney.
He got injured somehow while out of practice; caught Covid because he wasn't vaccinated; missed some camp time because he was negotiating a relatively fixed contract; and of course he had cleats that didn't fit.
It's all upside from here...
I still wouldn't have drafted the ding dong lol.
Maybe there is no plan. But you can't argue that signing a bunch of FA this year means Gettleman is all in on saving himself, then discount that he traded for future picks.
You are just seeing what you want to see and making shit up.
Heck maybe there is no plan, or maybe the plan sucks, but so doesn't you argument if you can only see it through one lens.
I'd like to solve the puzzle:
__________ if you do, _________ if you don't
(i'd have done the trade down just for the chicago pick btw, irrespective of projecting out whoever was left at #20 so this isn't a knock on trade downs).
As for what my plan would be - it depends on what the starting point is. I've been pretty clear since they made the mistake of drafting Barkley that this front office stinks, and what I would do differently.
If you're asking what I would do starting today, there's little that can be done. Season starts Sunday. I can tell you that the moment this team dips below .500 I'd start trading whatever players I can for draft picks. My full expectation is that a new project will be starting in 2022 or 2023 at the latest - I'd try to enter that period with as much cap space and as many draft picks as possible.
That's step one. Step two is to replace Gettleman and Garrett with people that know what year it is.
I'd like to solve the puzzle:
__________ if you do, _________ if you don't
(i'd have done the trade down just for the chicago pick btw, irrespective of projecting out whoever was left at #20 so this isn't a knock on trade downs).
What's your problem with those that support the trade down deal but not with who was later selected in Rd 1?
They actually can be looked at independently which shouldn't be puzzling...
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and the player selected is a bad pick sight unseen.
I'd like to solve the puzzle:
__________ if you do, _________ if you don't
(i'd have done the trade down just for the chicago pick btw, irrespective of projecting out whoever was left at #20 so this isn't a knock on trade downs).
What's your problem with those that support the trade down deal but not with who was later selected in Rd 1?
They actually can be looked at independently which shouldn't be puzzling...
You are right and I really don't think that was what was meant. They could have gone in another direction with the #20 pick. A lot of people liked Moore. Judge liked Toney. Judge probably thought that he has Golladay and Slayton, two regular WRs so he looked for a Tyrek Hill playmaker. They may have gone OT if AVT made it that far.
But yes you can like the trade down and like a different player at #20.
I didn't like it at the time but I'm willing to give the Toney pick a chance. But this Shepard restructuring reminds me too much of the Solder restructured deal - again trying to fix a cap problem by giving more guaranteed money to non-difference-making players.
And it's hard to imagine the scenario where it's proven out that the decisions regarding the WR group were all correct. If Shepard plays well, and Toney struggles, then it was a poor draft selection. If Toney plays well, and Shepard doesn't, then it was a bad reinvestment in Shep. If they both play well, then you have to question how much production Golladay (the big FA signing) was able to provide.
If all 3 of those guys are great this year then of course it's Yahtzee - Daniel Jones and the OLine would likely to have also been terrific, and you have a top tier offense. But I think that is the least likely scenario.
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and the player selected is a bad pick sight unseen.
I'd like to solve the puzzle:
__________ if you do, _________ if you don't
(i'd have done the trade down just for the chicago pick btw, irrespective of projecting out whoever was left at #20 so this isn't a knock on trade downs).
What's your problem with those that support the trade down deal but not with who was later selected in Rd 1?
They actually can be looked at independently which shouldn't be puzzling...
i think there's a lack of acknowledgement of the reality that that is the exact downside of a trade down. that there are going to have lesser prospects available to choose from. and inversely that's why teams trade up - to get the chance to draft better prospects. if the goal was a higher ranked prospect they likely had to stay at #11 and take AVT or Slater and forgo CHI's 2022 first. There's no magical 3rd option where they get the trade down and get a top 10 prospect (or at least it's highly unlikely at #20).
also the fact that we haven't seen Toney take a live snap yet. I too have disagreed with plenty of picks made in real time too and were I drafting for the nyg I probably would have taken Moore or Rousseau (I didn't think they'd even have toney on their board). but i certainly am not ready to declare myself right and them wrong before even seeing them all play in a regular season game. not to mention the fact that both players i liked stayed on the board for a while so clearly other nfl teams didn't agree with me.
So you decided to extrapolate that out and make a bigger deal of it that Gettleman/Giants get criticized by everybody/anybody on BBI now whether they trade down or not. And I am telling you...that is not a fair account.
Very simply, fans can like the trade down deal without liking who they ultimately chose at #20. That those points can be looked at completely independent of one another.
I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
I feel the same way about the trade down and the Toney pick. The trade down was a huge win IMO but I was shocked that they took Toney because nobody saw it coming. Toney is talented enough to go that high but if he disappoints it will hurt especially if any of the offensive linemen go on to have great careers.
If Jones isn't the answer and struggles this season then we will all be very grateful that the Giants traded down this year.
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I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
I feel the same way about the trade down and the Toney pick. The trade down was a huge win IMO but I was shocked that they took Toney because nobody saw it coming. Toney is talented enough to go that high but if he disappoints it will hurt especially if any of the offensive linemen go on to have great careers.
If Jones isn't the answer and struggles this season then we will all be very grateful that the Giants traded down this year.
Yep, agree.
But also need to have top QBs worth taking next year. And a new GM that knows how to scout them, but that is a thread for another day...
So the thing Toney has is superb quickness, elusiveness and shiftiness. Is that transferable to the NFL? And how many extra yards per completion does that shiftiness generate?
Because of the way the draft fell out, I question whether Toney was as fully evaluated by the Giants as he should have been.
And then there’s the fact that he’s a ding dong,
I'm pumped for the future of this team.
I mean he brought in Gates as an UDFA and Lemiuex already looks solid value for a 5th rounder. We know he can run block. Hernandez looks like a different player this year as well. We'll find out more about AT and Peart (I'm bullish on AT and bearish on Peart). They clearly wanted AVT to fall to 20 but he didn't and probably would have been the pick had we not got that sweet offer.
His biggest mistake was the Solder contract, but it seemed like the whole organization was desperate to give Eli one last chance and it clouded the entire orginizations judgement.
So the thing Toney has is superb quickness, elusiveness and shiftiness. Is that transferable to the NFL? And how many extra yards per completion does that shiftiness generate?
Because of the way the draft fell out, I question whether Toney was as fully evaluated by the Giants as he should have been.
And then there’s the fact that he’s a ding dong,
Yeah, Toney is not 4.6.
He's a ding dong? What is a ding dong and you know this how?
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I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
I feel the same way about the trade down and the Toney pick. The trade down was a huge win IMO but I was shocked that they took Toney because nobody saw it coming. Toney is talented enough to go that high but if he disappoints it will hurt especially if any of the offensive linemen go on to have great careers.
If Jones isn't the answer and struggles this season then we will all be very grateful that the Giants traded down this year.
why? this QB class sucks. if jones isn't the answer you should be making the case that they shouldn't have traded down and just drafted fields. fields is significantly better than the players in this class
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The way I see it Percy Harvin, an upper echelon gadget player with 4.4 speed, was drafted right around where Toney was. Toney in contrast plays some special teams and probably runs in the 4.5-4.6 range. That speed downgrade makes him look right away like an overdraft. He’s more like a high 2nd rounder.
So the thing Toney has is superb quickness, elusiveness and shiftiness. Is that transferable to the NFL? And how many extra yards per completion does that shiftiness generate?
Because of the way the draft fell out, I question whether Toney was as fully evaluated by the Giants as he should have been.
And then there’s the fact that he’s a ding dong,
Yeah, Toney is not 4.6.
He's a ding dong? What is a ding dong and you know this how?
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In comment 15356415 cosmicj said:
Quote:
The way I see it Percy Harvin, an upper echelon gadget player with 4.4 speed, was drafted right around where Toney was. Toney in contrast plays some special teams and probably runs in the 4.5-4.6 range. That speed downgrade makes him look right away like an overdraft. He’s more like a high 2nd rounder.
So the thing Toney has is superb quickness, elusiveness and shiftiness. Is that transferable to the NFL? And how many extra yards per completion does that shiftiness generate?
Because of the way the draft fell out, I question whether Toney was as fully evaluated by the Giants as he should have been.
And then there’s the fact that he’s a ding dong,
Yeah, Toney is not 4.6.
He's a ding dong? What is a ding dong and you know this how?
Like the poster...
In comment 15356350 Jimmy Googs said:
Very simply, fans can like the trade down deal without liking who they ultimately chose at #20. That those points can be looked at completely independent of one another.
I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
In comment 15356350 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Very simply, fans can like the trade down deal without liking who they ultimately chose at #20. That those points can be looked at completely independent of one another.
I for one loved the trade down of Smith was gone, and was just "okay" with Toney. Not because he is a ding dong, but because of the type of WR I think the Offense really needed and the OL still on the board.
Ok. I guess your point was lost with the insertion of that puzzle for no particular reason.
:-)
I may have missed that
I may have missed that
Maybe it was he took a horse dewormer. I forget...
I may have missed that
NGD - I have no idea. Was only surmising that Toney was unvaccinated.
Shep aint Jerry Rice but he is a reliable player who at times makes great plays to keep drives alive.
That is what we need as well as superstars at every position which no team has.
Man, it is so tiresome reading your posts.
Root for the Giants or get the hell off of here!
Terribly run organization.
Terribly run organization.
So leave.