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Field Yates
@FieldYates
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4m
The Giants converted $5.985M of WR Sterling Shepard’s base salary into a signing bonus, creating $3.99M in cap space.
Sterling’s cap charges go up by $1.995M in 2022-2023, while New York gets 2021 space.
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I though Shep was a goner after this year but it would be nice to keep him around as he looks great this preseason. Interested to see what kind of year he has and if he's healthy.
I don't think either of those are the biggest concerns. The biggest concern is his concussions.
When Shep reaches 'wily-veteran' status, maybe he'll have a move that pays off for us again and again.
make first downs.
And when you trace the 10-year downward spiral of this franchise, you'll see a team that can't make third downs very often.
Sterling Shepard is a very important player!
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
They'll almost certainly have to add a voidable year, but I think they'll end up with a couple of those.
His contract isn't the greatest value out there but it's far from an Albert Haynesworth or Landon Collins debacle.
As far as Jones, Barkley and Thomas are concerned, I agree the FO has to have the discipline to pay them in line with their performance, not draft status.
I have no problems with restructures in the abstract, but you don't do it on a bad or questionable contract to make it even harder to get out of. They should have restructured a contract like Leonard Williams
@twentee7
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50m
The Giants are using 2022 to pay 2021 salaries of Ryan, Jackson, Shep, and LW because they’re using 2021 to pay for Golden Tate and Solder and the bills that couldn’t be paid in 2019 because Eli needed 17 million to get benched after Week 2
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
The injuries are a killer but I don't think the contract is bad in terms of structure. His AAV comes in around 26 among veteran WR's. His stat lines for the seasons he has been health basically put him in line with that ranking, same if you prorate his stats last year over 16 games. His production hasn't fallen off when he is on the field so he's still the same player you paid for.
The Giants need him to stay healthy which I think will determine whether or not he's here next year. The Giants can move on and get 8.5 million back if they designate him as a post 6/1 cut so they have an out.
This type of cap moving will be happening for the rest of time. As long as a team has the flexibility it really doesn't matter in the long run. We saw it this year with the Giants who supposedly didn't have space to make any big signings and went after it aggressively.
His contract over the next two years is going to get pushed further and further down the list. 2018 1st round receivers have a cap hit of 11 million next year and Shep is already on the lower end of veteran receivers with multi-year contracts.
I tend to think of a total botch as someone who does not produce at all as well as a contract that completely hamstrings the team. This contract hasn't stopped the Giants from anything they want to do and is not one of the top WR deals in the league.
If you look at the top 10 or 12 contracts - i.e. what we are paying for now - the only obvious mistake is Solder ($9.5 hit). You could argue Saquon or Thomas, but a little soon in my book. In terms of dead money Tate, Baker, and Odenigbo were all mistakes in my book. Zeitler was not. All that is about $12.5MM
My point is the direct cause of the maneuvering is all the talent brought in over 2020 and 2021. Whether that is worth it will depend on this year. And maybe next. If we had done a great job drafting over the last 10 years, don't think it would be much different - we would just be paying our former draft choices.
Additionally, it looks like almost everything is in the next two year window. By 2023, outside of rookie contracts the only real big dead money is williams and Golladay. My recollection from last year is that contracts were pretty front end loaded compared to what is often done.
shep by the way is someone who can't stay healthy (which also begs the question why do this now with him) and someone who was the ideal person to release after this season and get out from his horrible contract. he's an overpaid, oft-injured slot player who isn't overly fast and doesn't stretch the field. simply put he is an average to slightly above average player who makes way to much money for what he actually brings to the field. he is also not a good outside receiver and is better in the slot
i bring up that last point, because if you wanted to keep shep beyond this year, why the hell did they draft toney in the first round? toney is best in the slot, though he can play outside, and the team has now invested significantly in two slot receivers. let's see how did that work out last time when we had tate and shep? oh right, it was a total failure. but beyond that, if you were going to commit to shep beyond this season, why draft toney at all? you're going to use a first round pick on a #3 WR and gadget guy / returner? when darrisaw was on the board? when you could have traded down again and grabbed offensive lineman? it's just once again an absolutely awful use of resources
the toney pick made sense in that he would replace shep after this year, freeing up a lot of cap space for the team. absent that, please tell me why we used a first round pick on him
Saquon shouldn't be an issue as he's still under contract for 2022 so they can structure his deal to basically start in 2023 and possibly lower his 2022 cap hit in the process. Cutting Solder will also bring back 14 million which makes up that cap difference and gives them about 8 million of cap space. They'll have other moves they can make as well to create more room.
In comment 15355851 Sean said:
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Will
@twentee7
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50m
The Giants are using 2022 to pay 2021 salaries of Ryan, Jackson, Shep, and LW because they’re using 2021 to pay for Golden Tate and Solder and the bills that couldn’t be paid in 2019 because Eli needed 17 million to get benched after Week 2
the nyg are currently 18th in dead money - so not exactly an outlier of cap mismanagement. OTC also published this chart yesterday indicating they have one of the youngest rosters in the nfl (specifically the youngest defense in the NFL, which obviously played pretty well last year and looks to be deeper this year).
they put in big bets on Golladay and Jackson. And obviously on Jones/Thomas/Toney/Barkley via draft. Maybe we should let them play a game together as giants before determining it all a failure?
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Will
@twentee7
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50m
The Giants are using 2022 to pay 2021 salaries of Ryan, Jackson, Shep, and LW because they’re using 2021 to pay for Golden Tate and Solder and the bills that couldn’t be paid in 2019 because Eli needed 17 million to get benched after Week 2
Brutal. And also shocking considering our GM and our "salary cap expert" are supposedly fantastic at their jobs.
The Giants have a lot of players with a second contract coming up who shouldn’t get that contract because they haven’t earned it. Hernandez, Barkley, Engram, Peppers. Carter. If they play great this year, then try to give them a second contract. If not, bye bye.
Letting Tomlinson go may prove to be a mistake, but in that case, it would have been hard to justify the contract based on his value to the team and he was at a position where 90% of his production can be easily replaced.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
Over those same two years the Giants paid Colt McCoy and Eli Manning 18.4M as backups.
There were savings out there in the back up market.
Hell, if Fitzpatrick is the Giants back up last year, they might have gone to the playoffs.
4yrs 41m is a reasonable deal for him too.The cap planning took a little hit because of the revenue drop last year which was pretty hard to predict.
The 2019 Shepard contract looks like a total botch at this point. Abrams and DG really need to do better.
And this cap hit shifting is happening in a context where the Giants are enjoying a QB under a first contract.
^This.
They spent a ton of money on the Titans corner.
He needs to produce and help create a dominate D or that was a terrible move.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
The dumb is strong in this post. Do you realize you’re talking about a GM who traded down twice for extra 2022 picks?
4yrs 41m is a reasonable deal for him too.The cap planning took a little hit because of the revenue drop last year which was pretty hard to predict.
stop with the rational thinking please. clearly there were much better players available at a much lower cost.
The Giants currently have the least amount of dead money on the books for the 2022 season.
The Giants cleared a substantial amount of space, and now are having to move more.
The risk is next year, when the Giants are presumably closer to contention, they’ll have fewer dollars to add depth because they used it this year.
The Giants currently have the least amount of dead money on the books for the 2022 season.
You could add to that the expectation the cap goes up next year. But pausing and thinking rationally isn’t popular around here these days.
The Giants cleared a substantial amount of space, and now are having to move more.
The risk is next year, when the Giants are presumably closer to contention, they’ll have fewer dollars to add depth because they used it this year.
they seem to be anticipating that to be the case and wisely added draft capital. I think it's pretty clever that they've put themselves in a position where either:
- Jones proves he's the guy, they have a lot of draft capital to improve the team around him without as much need of big $ UFA (which is always risky anyway).
- Jones proves he isn't the guy, they have draft capital to secure a QB and essentially vacate the future cap he would have cost with a 2nd contract to have more flexibility (whether that's used to extend other players or do more via UFA).
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would be lower today than when then signed him>
The Giants currently have the least amount of dead money on the books for the 2022 season.
You could add to that the expectation the cap goes up next year. But pausing and thinking rationally isn’t popular around here these days.
The point is a team with as many 8 figure cap hits as the Giants do, while still probably being under .500 again is not a good thing.
The Giants cleared a substantial amount of space, and now are having to move more.
The risk is next year, when the Giants are presumably closer to contention, they’ll have fewer dollars to add depth because they used it this year.
They're in a pretty decent spot next year. They have 43 rostered players. That will be 42 after they cut Solder, there's no chance he stays around. That cut will get them some cap room and extending Saquon will probably create a little more with the way they structure his deal.
They have 11 draft picks as well so I think we'll see churn with people like Davante Booker as they can get out of his contract and help create room to re-sign Peppers if that's the plan.
2022 will be the year of extending our own players while adding 2 first-round picks to the fold along with another draft class. Any FA signings should be to add depth on reasonable deals.
As I posted above, I don’t think these minor moves are a tragedy, but they do add up and on the fringes, and can keep you from adding depth.
No one wants to be kicking the can, it’s a necessary evil. Good cap management is about avoiding it as much as possible.
Nate Solder doesn’t need to be cut, his final year was voided. There’s no cap savings to be had, he will have a cap charge of 4M dead money.
shep by the way is someone who can't stay healthy (which also begs the question why do this now with him) and someone who was the ideal person to release after this season and get out from his horrible contract. he's an overpaid, oft-injured slot player who isn't overly fast and doesn't stretch the field. simply put he is an average to slightly above average player who makes way to much money for what he actually brings to the field. he is also not a good outside receiver and is better in the slot
i bring up that last point, because if you wanted to keep shep beyond this year, why the hell did they draft toney in the first round? toney is best in the slot, though he can play outside, and the team has now invested significantly in two slot receivers. let's see how did that work out last time when we had tate and shep? oh right, it was a total failure. but beyond that, if you were going to commit to shep beyond this season, why draft toney at all? you're going to use a first round pick on a #3 WR and gadget guy / returner? when darrisaw was on the board? when you could have traded down again and grabbed offensive lineman? it's just once again an absolutely awful use of resources
the toney pick made sense in that he would replace shep after this year, freeing up a lot of cap space for the team. absent that, please tell me why we used a first round pick on him
DG is desperately trying to keep his job.
If Jones continues to suck, this is a 5 win team . If that happens Judge could be gone too because a new GM is going to want his own guy as HC
you can very easily next year convert some salary into a guarantee and save money on the cap. offer 1/2 of the salary as a guarantee and you save $4M off the cap. To me this is a non issue
In comment 15355944 christian said:
As I posted above, I don’t think these minor moves are a tragedy, but they do add up and on the fringes, and can keep you from adding depth.
No one wants to be kicking the can, it’s a necessary evil. Good cap management is about avoiding it as much as possible.
my point was simply that the nyg have seemed to hedge themselves against their gambles.
if Jones gets to a 2nd contract, that will make things tight against the cap. But they will have a franchise QB presumably worth a 2nd contract.
if Jones doesn't get to a 2nd contract, they will have a solid veteran roster and then likely find another rookie QB to restart the "cheap QB years" clock.
their cap management is way down the list of my concerns.
you can very easily next year convert some salary into a guarantee and save money on the cap. offer 1/2 of the salary as a guarantee and you save $4M off the cap. To me this is a non issue
This is what the Giants did today, and what you’d like to avoid doing in the future.
It seems to be the history of recent Giants management. They sport a losing record and never have cap space.
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Will
@twentee7
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50m
The Giants are using 2022 to pay 2021 salaries of Ryan, Jackson, Shep, and LW because they’re using 2021 to pay for Golden Tate and Solder and the bills that couldn’t be paid in 2019 because Eli needed 17 million to get benched after Week 2
While likely true, that guy is such a fucking crybaby.
i'm not a fan of restructuring an oft-injured guy like shepard but the giants have much bigger problems to worry about on the offensive side
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This is also what happens when you have a GM that knows he has to win now. Gettleman couldn't give a shit about 2022 because he knows he may be out after 2021.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
The dumb is strong in this post. Do you realize you’re talking about a GM who traded down twice for extra 2022 picks?
Beat me to it.
Judge is building HIS vision of a team. Some guys we like will be gone in 22 or 23, in part the cap, in part where talent for his vision does not value out at the contract.
Our 5 picks in the top 3 rounds will likely look for OL, WR, DT/ DE and LB to evolve out of the big contracts of KG, LW, Solder, and possibly Maritinez, if the talent is there this draft.
The organization has spent decades being player loyal, sometimes to a fault.
We are now in 21st century football business operations, finally. That’s what DG has been trying to do, while giving ownership much of what they still wanted.
He now has an ally in JJ .
Change is a process.
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In comment 15355887 Go Terps said:
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This is also what happens when you have a GM that knows he has to win now. Gettleman couldn't give a shit about 2022 because he knows he may be out after 2021.
There is still no plan here even as we speak.
The dumb is strong in this post. Do you realize you’re talking about a GM who traded down twice for extra 2022 picks?
Beat me to it.
Judge is building HIS vision of a team. Some guys we like will be gone in 22 or 23, in part the cap, in part where talent for his vision does not value out at the contract.
Our 5 picks in the top 3 rounds will likely look for OL, WR, DT/ DE and LB to evolve out of the big contracts of KG, LW, Solder, and possibly Maritinez, if the talent is there this draft.
The organization has spent decades being player loyal, sometimes to a fault.
We are now in 21st century football business operations, finally. That’s what DG has been trying to do, while giving ownership much of what they still wanted.
He now has an ally in JJ .
Change is a process.
Ah yes the guy who signed the corpse of Johnathan Stewart for the sole reason he had him in Carolina is the anti player loyalty guy