Was watching one of the NFL season preview shows last evening and they did a spot on the Chiefs and how they are attempting to replace/retool all 5 starting guys on their (near) championship-level team from a year ago. Since Offensive Line issues are always a constant topic here with regards to how it has been a significant reason of the Giant's decline in the past decade and a clear thorn in the side of any positive traction from Dave Gettleman's overall rebuilding process, I thought it deserved a closer look.
From Sports Illustrated-
The Chiefs completely overhauled their offensive line after injuries and opt-outs forced them to use a makeshift group in the most important game of the season. And when their collection of backups and off-the-scrap-heap fill-ins were dominated by the Buccaneers in the Super Bowl, General Manager Brett Veach wasted no time rebuilding from the ground up.
This is what GM Veach did in a few short months..
Left Tackle- replaced expensive All-Pro Eric Fisher who's injury in the AFC Championship game was really the Chiefs ultimate undoing in the Super Bowl. They gave up a 1st round 2021 pick and swapped a bunch of other picks and landed Orlando Brown Jr, a Pro Bowl OT himself with the Ravens.
Left Guard- down goes Nick Alligretti to bench and he is upgraded with a very solid free agent guard Joe Thuney signed this offseason.
Center- KC lets a fairly average Austin Reiter go this offseason and are inserting promising rookie Creed Humphrey from Oklahoma who they drafted at bottom of Rd 2 this year. Kansas City also signed a capable veteran Center/Guard Austin Blythe in free agency but Humphrey beat him out this summer for the starting gig.
Right Guard- down goes Andrew Wylie to bench and insert drafted rookie Trey Smith from Tennessee in 6th round this year who looks to have won the starting job after his first summer with the team.
Right Tackle- released long-time perennial All-Pro Mitchell Shwartz who was hurt for most of last season and now will insert Lucas Niang who they drafted in 3rd round in 2020. Niang was drafted at nearly same point that the Giants picked their hopeful future Right Tackle Matt Peart, although Niang opted out his rookie year altogether as part of a Covid decision.
So the Chiefs are going to war in 2021 with 5 new starters, including 2 rookies and another player who is also basically a rookie for all practical purposes in Niang. From some of the articles I read, it appears the new look KC Offensive Line was doing pretty well in preseason game snaps and Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes were impressed with the play of all the new faces, how cohesive the overall unit has been during the summer, and that they also may have improved their depth thru a well planned-out competitive process as well.
So what do you think of what GM Veach and the Chiefs have done here on the OL, in just one offseason? Clearly they see that they are in a Super Bowl window period and want to take advantage of it. But on the other hand, some of these moves are with pretty inexpensive young drafted guys to go along with a more expensive trade and free agent signings. Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.
As we all know first hand, rebuilding an entire Offensive Line takes a great deal of time and patience...or does it?
When you have weapons all over the field (Mahomes, CEH, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins (until this year) and with those weapons SPEED galore, you present problems for opposing teams in such a way that they (the defense) cannot just try and flat out exploit the OL.
Mahomes benefits more from all that talent than the OL does.
I think when it's all said and done the OL issue in the SB will come out as a bit of an excuse.
Too much hero style ball and not enough unsexy ball control offense (with limited shots) did the Chiefs in a bit, IMO.
I'm sure they will be blamed again once Wilson stops performing.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.
But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.
So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.
Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?
I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?
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Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.
But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.
So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.
Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?
I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?
Well said, and this O line mess has been hashed over 100 times over if not more. Thomas a #4 pick is young, but so far a bust, and Peart who just because a 3rd round pick many on here thinks he is a future all pro, and so far he’s been a bust. WH lost his job last year to a 5th round center who wasn’t to good himself. The Giants so called brain trust have made their bed with this bunch, and they’ll have to lie in it. If it doesn’t pan out, and I don’t think it will then the Giants will have to start all over again from DG, and JJ on down, and set the winning process back even further. Not upgrading this line this off season was professional incompetent.
Let me present an additional take, which could at the end of the day and season be even more damning of the Giants' FO futility--and it has been said often--this past decade the franchise has been mostly inept in identifying talent for the OL.
I believe that OLs generally present the greatest opportunity for misdrafting: that is to say we often see and hear that a 4th or 5th Round pick has stepped in as a starter as a rookie on team x and performed adequately, if not better--they don't have to all be Day 1 and Day 2 picks--imo it's a misconception that talent on OL necessarily traces to draft position. It should help, but in the Giants' case for a decade it has not.
Arbitrarily, I chose the Steelers as a team to focus on. In the 2020 season its OL allowed 14 sacks, the fewest since 1982, the OL went five games in a row without allowing a single sack, and that is with a very immobile (but tough to haul to the ground) Rothliesberger at QB. That OL is now without all of its starters (except one part timer) from 2020, including long entrenched starters, DeCastro and Wisniewski, injured during the 2020 season and no longer even on the roster.
So, who are the Steelers' starters for 2021? Here you go:
LT Dan Moore, Rookie, 4th Round, 128th pick
LG Kevin Dotson, 2nd Year, 4th Round, 135th pick
C Kendall Green, Rookie, 3rd Round, 87th pick
RG Trai Turner, 6th Year, 3rd Round 2014, yep, him
RT Chukwuma Okorafor, 4th Year, 3rd Round, 92nd pick
Other than Dotson, who started four games last year, there is not one holdover starter for the Steelers' OL in 2021.
Thus, Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert (GM), two pretty good football men, are entrusting the offense and protecting Ben to an entirely re-built OL, overwhelmingly young and inexperienced. Will we hear that the Giants' OL is far more talented, owing to the notion largely of their draft position (that's why so many of us love Gates)?
Place your bets
Just a quick housecleaning item, though, on the Steelers OL last year. While they were good at protecting BR, they were 30th in YPA. And that's because BR was getting rid of the ball super-quickly. It was out of necessity because they had no running game due of injuries at RB and the OL just couldn't move anybody.
Let me present an additional take, which could at the end of the day and season be even more damning of the Giants' FO futility--and it has been said often--this past decade the franchise has been mostly inept in identifying talent for the OL.
I believe that OLs generally present the greatest opportunity for misdrafting: that is to say we often see and hear that a 4th or 5th Round pick has stepped in as a starter as a rookie on team x and performed adequately, if not better--they don't have to all be Day 1 and Day 2 picks--imo it's a misconception that talent on OL necessarily traces to draft position. It should help, but in the Giants' case for a decade it has not.
Arbitrarily, I chose the Steelers as a team to focus on. In the 2020 season its OL allowed 14 sacks, the fewest since 1982, the OL went five games in a row without allowing a single sack, and that is with a very immobile (but tough to haul to the ground) Rothliesberger at QB. That OL is now without all of its starters (except one part timer) from 2020, including long entrenched starters, DeCastro and Wisniewski, injured during the 2020 season and no longer even on the roster.
So, who are the Steelers' starters for 2021? Here you go:
LT Dan Moore, Rookie, 4th Round, 128th pick
LG Kevin Dotson, 2nd Year, 4th Round, 135th pick
C Kendall Green, Rookie, 3rd Round, 87th pick
RG Trai Turner, 6th Year, 3rd Round 2014, yep, him
RT Chukwuma Okorafor, 4th Year, 3rd Round, 92nd pick
Other than Dotson, who started four games last year, there is not one holdover starter for the Steelers' OL in 2021.
Thus, Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert (GM), two pretty good football men, are entrusting the offense and protecting Ben to an entirely re-built OL, overwhelmingly young and inexperienced. Will we hear that the Giants' OL is far more talented, owing to the notion largely of their draft position (that's why so many of us love Gates)?
Place your bets
One major difference is that Pittsburg unlike the Giants hasn’t had losing season after losing season, and the Giants O line problems are magnified because of that, and a #4 pick like Thomas doesn’t get much leeway, or time to see if he is any good or not.
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Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.
But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.
So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.
Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?
I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?
Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.
Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.
It's an odd stance because you have a surer thing with two proven Pro Bowl players protecting their QB's blind side.
Beyond that, it's an organization trust factor at this point.
Which begs this question - who do you trust to put together an OL? Gettleman/Judge/Sale? Or Veach/Reid/Heck?
I think their OL will be fine.
I think their OL will be fine.
I think this is the real outcome. With Mahomes, Hill, Kelcie, and Helaire, the OL really doesn't need to be that good.
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Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.
It's an odd stance because you have a surer thing with two proven Pro Bowl players protecting their QB's blind side.
Beyond that, it's an organization trust factor at this point.
Which begs this question - who do you trust to put together an OL? Gettleman/Judge/Sale? Or Veach/Reid/Heck?
I have said my stance numerous times now, so I am dropping this thread. I am not going to be one of the "everything sucks" voices. Yes I would rather have 3 players on the Giants OL at this time than the Chiefs, and 2 players on the Chiefs OL over the Giants.
Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.
I think it's a fair stance too. Rookie O-linemen typically get their heads handed to them a lot in year one, even really good ones.
But as mentioned (again) KC seems to have run a pretty good orchestrated-process of bringing along the young guys all summer in competition against veterans who held the starting job at these positions previously. And the younger guys won the job.
Which is exactly how you want it to work out in the end...
And I find the Orlando Brown praising funny considering how much shit DG caught for trading for a player in a contract year (because supposedly you have no leverage and can just sign guys in FA like it Madden by pressing a button) Rule number one of negotiation, things get easier once you have them in the building.
How much is coaching? How much is the QB/surrounding players?
The Patriots have succeeded with minimal investment in the line. They constantly have good lines. Why?
How much is coaching? How much is the QB/surrounding players?
The Patriots have succeeded with minimal investment in the line. They constantly have good lines. Why?
Well, the Pats had Dante Scarnecchia, who is a brilliant coach.
How much is coaching? How much is the QB/surrounding players?
The Patriots have succeeded with minimal investment in the line. They constantly have good lines. Why?
Well, Scarnecchia for sure. Guy should be in the Hall of Fame. But Belichick has a very good guy for drafting OLs.
I said this the other day. If I were Judge, I would have walked into Mara's office at the end of last year and asked for a blank check. And when Mara said what for, I would have said because it's finally time for a sure thing to fix this OL jinx. And I am going to basically bribe Dante Scarnecchia out of retirement.
[quote] In comment 15356285 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15356019 PatersonPlank said:
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Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.
But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.
So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.
Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?
I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?
Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance. [/quote
Saying you would rather have a washed up RT, and a RG who got benched for a rookie 5th round draft pick last year who wasn’t very good himself is very sound thinking. Only on the Giants would you get high praise like this. HUMPTY Dumpty lives on.
Brown and Thuney aren’t high ceiling players, they are high accomplishment players. Both guys are near All Pro caliber players, who have proven it on the field.
Duvernay-Tardif is a good football player, and his broken hand is about healed. Don’t be surprised if he’s back in the line up in a few weeks.
The Chiefs also have 3 other proven backups in Blythe, Remmers, and Wylie.
Humphrey, Smith, and Niang have beaten pretty decent players.
And I find the Orlando Brown praising funny considering how much shit DG caught for trading for a player in a contract year (because supposedly you have no leverage and can just sign guys in FA like it Madden by pressing a button) Rule number one of negotiation, things get easier once you have them in the building.
Who is saying the KC process is already a win? Please show me that post.
thx
Brown and Thuney aren’t high ceiling players, they are high accomplishment players. Both guys are near All Pro caliber players, who have proven it on the field.
Duvernay-Tardif is a good football player, and his broken hand is about healed. Don’t be surprised if he’s back in the line up in a few weeks.
The Chiefs also have 3 other proven backups in Blythe, Remmers, and Wylie.
Humphrey, Smith, and Niang have beaten pretty decent players.
We keep writing posts that have similar themes. This little dupe handle game isn't going to work out if it continues...
Brown and Thuney aren’t high ceiling players, they are high accomplishment players. Both guys are near All Pro caliber players, who have proven it on the field.
Duvernay-Tardif is a good football player, and his broken hand is about healed. Don’t be surprised if he’s back in the line up in a few weeks.
The Chiefs also have 3 other proven backups in Blythe, Remmers, and Wylie.
Humphrey, Smith, and Niang have beaten pretty decent players.
Remmers? The same guy that was pretty bad while he was here?
FMIC?
Remmers is much better suited as a swing tackle. He’s pretty good in that role.
I have noticed that as well.
But the scandal is not forgotten. So eagerly await the return... ;)
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Remmers? The same guy that was pretty bad while he was here?
Remmers is much better suited as a swing tackle. He’s pretty good in that role.
He did not get better in KC and looked like crap when he had to play after the injuries in the playoffs.
I can't speak for others, but I am getting somewhat concerned that my friend may be stuck in one of those escape hatches he uses all too often...
Are you kidding? I love battling out with him. Of course I miss him.
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It seems that some of you may actually missing fighting with him.
I can't speak for others, but I am getting somewhat concerned that my friend may be stuck in one of those escape hatches he uses all too often...
"Escape hatches" are used often on here by most posters whether that is leaving a thread or intentionally changing the subject.
Anyway, quite a weird turn for this thread.
🙈
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
I think you miss him far more...
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In comment 15356476 crick n NC said:
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It seems that some of you may actually missing fighting with him.
I can't speak for others, but I am getting somewhat concerned that my friend may be stuck in one of those escape hatches he uses all too often...
"Escape hatches" are used often on here by most posters whether that is leaving a thread or intentionally changing the subject.
No, they aren't actually. Just ones with a bit too much hubris...
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
Not better. It was implied that the right side of the Giants line was "preferred" over the right side of KC's.
Nobody said KC got it all correct. The thread was about how they have gone thru a big transformation at all 5 positions at once, and lets see what happens next...
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In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
Not better. It was implied that the right side of the Giants line was "preferred" over the right side of KC's.
Nobody said KC got it all correct. The thread was about how they have gone thru a big transformation at all 5 positions at once, and lets see what happens next...
The implication was clearly that the Chiefs can do this major change all at the same time and get it right. The same point about the 5 changes was brought up on another thread earlier this week.
It really doesn't matter. The Chiefs are great and the Giants? WTF knows.
Of course. Any rational thinking poster would.
Even Paterson Plank.
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In comment 15356498 section125 said:
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In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
Not better. It was implied that the right side of the Giants line was "preferred" over the right side of KC's.
Nobody said KC got it all correct. The thread was about how they have gone thru a big transformation at all 5 positions at once, and lets see what happens next...
The implication was clearly that the Chiefs can do this major change all at the same time and get it right. The same point about the 5 changes was brought up on another thread earlier this week.
It really doesn't matter. The Chiefs are great and the Giants? WTF knows.
I will be fair. I wrote the OP with moreso a challenging "wait and see approach" if KC can rebuild their OL quicker/better in one offseason than it takes the Giants GMs/FO a decade.
I also wrote it because I think the Chiefs GM absolutely did his retool in a blue-print fashion and I am interested in whether he got it right...
I will be fair. I wrote the OP with moreso a challenging "wait and see approach" if KC can rebuild their OL quicker/better in one offseason than it takes the Giants GMs/FO a decade.
I also wrote it because I think the Chiefs GM absolutely did his retool in a blue-print fashion and I am interested in whether he got it right...
Blue-print? There is a blue print? I guess if there is, it is get some guys with some ability and give them to Andy Reid. That would be a good decision.
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
Of course. Any rational thinking poster would.
Even Paterson Plank.
Some of you are real jerks. No wonder people stop posting here.
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In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
Of course. Any rational thinking poster would.
Even Paterson Plank.
Some of you are real jerks. No wonder people stop posting here.
The O line is tied to the success of everything. The QB, the RB, the WR, and the success of the team, or in the Giants case lack of success, and has been dissected over a million times here on a million different threads by all the pundits than can be imagined. Bottom line is that HUMPTY Dumpty can’t be fixed and that’s the bottom line cause Stone Cold says so.
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
Seems like you did, read the first page. The excuse making and minimizing is all over. Bottom line it may not work out, but I’d bet it does. They rebuilt it better with high end talent at every spot:
Brown — dominant LT — why dipshit passed on him in the draft when the OL was in shambles, no idea
Thuney — experienced, high end proven commodity in FA.
Humphrey — was the top rated Center the year before he actually came out of the draft
Smith — arguably the most talented OG in the class who fell because of medicals. Giants apparently didn’t think he was worth a flyer in the 6th round.
Niang — was a top rated Tackle prospect before he had some injuries in college. Chiefs get Niang and we end up with a shitty project in Peart.
Savvy rebuild that’s not rocket science. They added two elite vets and filled out the remainder with high end performers with pedigree. Meanwhile the Giants have meandered around clueless without a plan for the OL for 10+ years.
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In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
Seems like you did, read the first page. The excuse making and minimizing is all over. Bottom line it may not work out, but I’d bet it does. They rebuilt it better with high end talent at every spot:
Brown — dominant LT — why dipshit passed on him in the draft when the OL was in shambles, no idea
Thuney — experienced, high end proven commodity in FA.
Humphrey — was the top rated Center the year before he actually came out of the draft
Smith — arguably the most talented OG in the class who fell because of medicals. Giants apparently didn’t think he was worth a flyer in the 6th round.
Niang — was a top rated Tackle prospect before he had some injuries in college. Chiefs get Niang and we end up with a shitty project in Peart.
Savvy rebuild that’s not rocket science. They added two elite vets and filled out the remainder with high end performers with pedigree. Meanwhile the Giants have meandered around clueless without a plan for the OL for 10+ years.
Clueless? The fallback plan was Nate Solder, and rummaging through lawn sales for bargains. Clueless is giving them to much credit.