Was watching one of the NFL season preview shows last evening and they did a spot on the Chiefs and how they are attempting to replace/retool all 5 starting guys on their (near) championship-level team from a year ago. Since Offensive Line issues are always a constant topic here with regards to how it has been a significant reason of the Giant's decline in the past decade and a clear thorn in the side of any positive traction from Dave Gettleman's overall rebuilding process, I thought it deserved a closer look.
From Sports Illustrated-
The Chiefs completely overhauled their offensive line after injuries and opt-outs forced them to use a makeshift group in the most important game of the season. And when their collection of backups and off-the-scrap-heap fill-ins were dominated by the Buccaneers in the Super Bowl, General Manager Brett Veach wasted no time rebuilding from the ground up.
This is what GM Veach did in a few short months..
Left Tackle- replaced expensive All-Pro Eric Fisher who's injury in the AFC Championship game was really the Chiefs ultimate undoing in the Super Bowl. They gave up a 1st round 2021 pick and swapped a bunch of other picks and landed Orlando Brown Jr, a Pro Bowl OT himself with the Ravens.
Left Guard- down goes Nick Alligretti to bench and he is upgraded with a very solid free agent guard Joe Thuney signed this offseason.
Center- KC lets a fairly average Austin Reiter go this offseason and are inserting promising rookie Creed Humphrey from Oklahoma who they drafted at bottom of Rd 2 this year. Kansas City also signed a capable veteran Center/Guard Austin Blythe in free agency but Humphrey beat him out this summer for the starting gig.
Right Guard- down goes Andrew Wylie to bench and insert drafted rookie Trey Smith from Tennessee in 6th round this year who looks to have won the starting job after his first summer with the team.
Right Tackle- released long-time perennial All-Pro Mitchell Shwartz who was hurt for most of last season and now will insert Lucas Niang who they drafted in 3rd round in 2020. Niang was drafted at nearly same point that the Giants picked their hopeful future Right Tackle Matt Peart, although Niang opted out his rookie year altogether as part of a Covid decision.
So the Chiefs are going to war in 2021 with 5 new starters, including 2 rookies and another player who is also basically a rookie for all practical purposes in Niang. From some of the articles I read, it appears the new look KC Offensive Line was doing pretty well in preseason game snaps and Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes were impressed with the play of all the new faces, how cohesive the overall unit has been during the summer, and that they also may have improved their depth thru a well planned-out competitive process as well.
So what do you think of what GM Veach and the Chiefs have done here on the OL, in just one offseason? Clearly they see that they are in a Super Bowl window period and want to take advantage of it. But on the other hand, some of these moves are with pretty inexpensive young drafted guys to go along with a more expensive trade and free agent signings. Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.
As we all know first hand, rebuilding an entire Offensive Line takes a great deal of time and patience...or does it?
Plus they gave up a 1st rounder for their 5th OL. So they did use a lot of capital on their left side and from C-RT is a huge unknown. Its very risky but could pay huge dividens. Teams will catch onto their 3 unknown players weaknesses really quick. This a big boom or bust situation.
before anointing KC, they are starting basically 3 rookies so I would expect some growing pains but the trade for Brown and Thuney signing were very good moves. Both will end up being very expensive (both cost more than Solder did for comparison) but I think both have more good football left too.
all that said their defense just keeps getting weaker. every big resource commitment comes with an opportunity cost. I'd have chosen to prioritize protecting Mahomes after what happened last year also but if the rookies on the OL struggle or either big ticket player doesn't have a good year, they could easily wonder whether the picks/$ spent would have been better used adding some talent to a defense that is basically just Chris Jones and Honey badger.
This. Chiefs have their franchise QB and made the SB the past two years. Their major issue was their OL. They aren't about to trade a high 1st round pick for a disgruntled OT. As for some of the other moves, the Chiefs used their 1, 2 and 6 on OL, and a 3 last year. Is that really much different than the Giants using a 1, 3, and 5 on OL last year? Whether they are the right players is TBD
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You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.
This. Chiefs have their franchise QB and made the SB the past two years. Their major issue was their OL. They aren't about to trade a high 1st round pick for a disgruntled OT. As for some of the other moves, the Chiefs used their 1, 2 and 6 on OL, and a 3 last year. Is that really much different than the Giants using a 1, 3, and 5 on OL last year? Whether they are the right players is TBD
Should read the Giants aren't about to trade their high 1st
Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.
Fairly impressive, and would suggest Chiefs and their coaches seem to know a little about good offensive line play...
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You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.
Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.
It's not that simple. Look at the separation stats on the Giants WR the past two years. They needed huge upgrades at that position as well. Golladay (and Collin Johnson) are two bigger WRs who can use their size. Toney is an a good route runner that can get open in the short game.
I am offering the theory that having huge weapons like Mahommes, Hill, Kelce, and Helaire, make such an impact on the defense that the OL isn't getting the full thrust of the attack. They need to cover the receivers, keep Mahommes in the pocket, and contain Helaire. All this means a controlled rush, reacting to the offense, rather than just trying to blow up the ol. With the Giants we had no receiver worth a dam, so the defense would just pin its ears back and run-blitz to stop Barkley. When Barkley went down it was ever worse. I think we saw a difference once Jones started to run a little, it loosened up the defense.
Solving one problem (the biggest) is always better than trying to solve all at the same time. Solving all your problems and not focusing on the most important is how you build a mediocre team.
With the exception of the Belichick outlier, teams that draft poorly over a 2/3 or more year period become awful teams for at least that long. Hello NY Giants. #2, #6, #4 and not much to show for it and the rest of the drafts haven't produced a single for bowl level player.
When you have weapons all over the field (Mahomes, CEH, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins (until this year) and with those weapons SPEED galore, you present problems for opposing teams in such a way that they (the defense) cannot just try and flat out exploit the OL.
The Giants of 2020, once Barkley went down had the exact opposite as we had NO real threats and a GLARING lack of speed on the field at our skill positions. Teams were able to load up and come after our run game and our young QB.
It is also hard to compliment the Chiefs who seem to haev lucked out on Trey Smith as all 31 other teams let him slide through 5 rounds (which include some comp picks) and some teams that let him go through round 6 as well.
I am not ready to call anyone a winner yet based on 3 Pre-Season games where most teams were not playing their starters period!
Agree. If I had only included something like this in my OP...
:-)
With that said, the Chiefs are in another stratosphere.
The “deficiencies” of that offense (specifically line) are disguised by their all-world QB, future hall of fame coach, and spectacular TE and WR.
With that said, the Chiefs are in another stratosphere.
The “deficiencies” of that offense (specifically line) are disguised by their all-world QB, future hall of fame coach, and spectacular TE and WR.
And to sweeten the pot, they added 2 All Pro alternate-type lineman.
I think Cleveland's front 7 is going to have a nice game
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We just say they did a great job?
Agree. If I had only included something like this in my OP...
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Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.
:-)
It wasn't directed at you.
Care to share some of tomorrow's lotto numbers while you're at it?
It was all so easy, just draft a second rounder and 6th rounder and plug em in. Every team should be so lucky. And they don't even have to play a game.
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In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:
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You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.
Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.
It's not that simple. Look at the separation stats on the Giants WR the past two years. They needed huge upgrades at that position as well. Golladay (and Collin Johnson) are two bigger WRs who can use their size. Toney is an a good route runner that can get open in the short game.
All of this stuff doesn’t mean diddly squat if you don’t have a O line to block, and the Giants don’t have a O line to block. The Giants have drafted. RB at 2, and a QB at 6, and how has that made the team better? It hasn’t, and it won’t until the O line is fixed.
I guess that can't happen.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
The Giants have better lineman than Brown and Thuney?
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In comment 15355940 robbieballs2003 said:
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We just say they did a great job?
Agree. If I had only included something like this in my OP...
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Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.
:-)
It wasn't directed at you.
I figured as much. Mine was only amplifying the same pt...
Care to share some of tomorrow's lotto numbers while you're at it?
It was all so easy, just draft a second rounder and 6th rounder and plug em in. Every team should be so lucky. And they don't even have to play a game.
such as, for this guy...
No offense to Gary Brightwell and Rodarius Williams, but with Smith starting in KC, one does wonder whether he was on the Giants’ board.
No offense to Gary Brightwell and Rodarius Williams, but with Smith starting in KC, one does wonder whether he was on the Giants’ board.
Smith got some traction around here as a target pre-draft and during the draft. If he works out for KC, it's a real coup...
As a 6th round pick, he should have been worth the stretch for any team.
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is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
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In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:
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is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
If they are doing well, its because of their stud playmakers making their jobs easier. Mahommes moves around and has a great arm, the receivers are open all over the place, and they have a top RB pick (like we do).
i hate when we pass on guys for no reason just to pack up CB, WR, or DE. who gives a fuck about our 6th CB when our 1st OG can't block worth a damn?
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is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
It’s thinking like this is why the Giants have been a losing team year after year for the last ten years. Scheme, or playmakers is not the reason, but lack of talent on the O line is, and all the coaching in the world won’t fix like so many dreamers seem to think.
He's flushed from the pocket quite often and making either sidearm throws or off balance throws while being pursued.
The SuperBowl was an anomaly but I've watched a lot of their games and he's constantly being flushed.
From a pure pass blocking perspective, I think the Chiefs OL is a bit overrated simply because Mahomes is so calm and elusive in outside the pocket.
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In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:
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is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
Enough with the silly annointing them great comments...no one is suggesting it from what I have read.
But more than happy to have a side bet on who has the more stable offensive line this year, NY or KC. Let me know if you want any of that action.
I know we all would love for the Giant OL (and team for that matter) to be better this season. But why is it so hard to take a look at what some other GMs/teams do in addressing their own problems without being defensive about it?
But, KC really doesn't have any options.
Brown will demand Huge money next year. Chiefs may or may not be able to afford it. They certainly can't afford other good vets if they sign Brown to a huge deal.
He's flushed from the pocket quite often and making either sidearm throws or off balance throws while being pursued.
The SuperBowl was an anomaly but I've watched a lot of their games and he's constantly being flushed.
You are right in all you say, but like I keep saying the Giants don’t have a Mahomes, or the speed, and weapons he has at his disposal, which is all the more reason the Giants need a better O line, and if not the losing seasons will extend to 5 in a row.
From a pure pass blocking perspective, I think the Chiefs OL is a bit overrated simply because Mahomes is so calm and elusive in outside the pocket.
They have two very high pedigree players in Thuney and Brown. The three young players in the lineup beat out legitimate NFL players in Remmers, Blythe, and Tardif.
Comparisons between the Giants and Chiefs are pretty silly. They have better top line talent and depth.
The only players on the Giants who would make the Chiefs roster are Thomas and Gates.
Fairly impressive, and would suggest Chiefs and their coaches seem to know a little about good offensive line play...
One thing you can say about Andy Reid, he knows OL. But we don't know yet clearly. Those 3 rookies should be certainly be interesting. Their problem was OL depth to my mind. Their starting guys for much of last year were good enough to win. It's when they went down that was the issue.
I would certainly trust Reid's opinion on OL over anyone on the Giants at this point... but I can say with some hope/optimism is I like the fact that we were really addressing depth on those last 2 moves on Price and Bredeson. That signifies that Judge and co. really are ready to go to battle with who they had slated to start, they saw they needed much better depth and they addressed it. Judge said as much that the best time to upgrade depth is when it comes time for the cutdowns to 53.
I am confused Bill. Didn't the Giants begin the offseason process with all of the expected 5 OL starters already on the team and under contract?
They made a lot of changes affecting backups/depth but since they really didn't address the OL in early free agency or draft, they assumed they had the solutions in place. If they really needed to fix the starting OL in their eyes, then they forgot...
It isn't an either/or necessarily. There are multiple factors that go into building a successful unit, not excluding good fortune.
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In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:
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You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.
Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.
It's not that simple. Look at the separation stats on the Giants WR the past two years. They needed huge upgrades at that position as well. Golladay (and Collin Johnson) are two bigger WRs who can use their size. Toney is an a good route runner that can get open in the short game.
Good points, and also prompts a question: were the WR stats due to Garrett's route trees and play designs or the talent? Will they stretch the field with the new toys, or will it be 4 guys running the same old 5-7 yd routes in traffic?? I'm really interested to see how the offense evolves.
All those areas needed upgrades, but NONE were more Important than the O line that they DID NOT upgrade, so that’s why they are getting all the bad things said, and deservedly so.
One thing that remains to be seen is with all the attention paid to the OL will they have a big deficiency elsewhere? Let's see how the defense is.
I would certainly trust Reid's opinion on OL over anyone on the Giants at this point... but I can say with some hope/optimism is I like the fact that we were really addressing depth on those last 2 moves on Price and Bredeson. That signifies that Judge and co. really are ready to go to battle with who they had slated to start, they saw they needed much better depth and they addressed it. Judge said as much that the best time to upgrade depth is when it comes time for the cutdowns to 53. [/quote]
Looks like the KC approach to improve their depth was quite a bit different.
They targeted a few All Pro/Pro Bowl players as immediate replacements, and then trusted their draft process to find talent that just beat out other veteran starters for their respective jobs this summer. Now they have a fairly reliable bench to boot...
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In comment 15355996 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:
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is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
Enough with the silly annointing them great comments...no one is suggesting it from what I have read.
But more than happy to have a side bet on who has the more stable offensive line this year, NY or KC. Let me know if you want any of that action.
I know we all would love for the Giant OL (and team for that matter) to be better this season. But why is it so hard to take a look at what some other GMs/teams do in addressing their own problems without being defensive about it?
That isn't where I was going. I was answering the question from someone else. My point pertaining to your initial post is that I don't think that KC has done much different from us on the OL. I think they look better because of the great playmakers taking the pressure off them. Whether its Mahommes buying a lot of time scrambling, Kelce or Hill creating huge amounts of separation, or Mahommes unbelievable arm, all of these mean the OL has to hold their blocks a lot less, and means that the defenses are structuring to stop Mahommes/Kelce/Hill/Helaire rather than having no fear, putting their ears back, and just attacking.
I actually don't think either OL is all that good, but KC's doesn't need to be.
I would certainly trust Reid's opinion on OL over anyone on the Giants at this point... but I can say with some hope/optimism is I like the fact that we were really addressing depth on those last 2 moves on Price and Bredeson. That signifies that Judge and co. really are ready to go to battle with who they had slated to start, they saw they needed much better depth and they addressed it. Judge said as much that the best time to upgrade depth is when it comes time for the cutdowns to 53.
Looks like the KC approach to improve their depth was quite a bit different.
They targeted a few All Pro/Pro Bowl players as immediate replacements, and then trusted their draft process to find talent that just beat out other veteran starters for their respective jobs this summer. Now they have a fairly reliable bench to boot...
Still, I thought the OL was coming together at the end of last year. I like what I saw from WH at RG so far. And if nothing else, I'm impressed that they jettisoned the depth they had for guys who they thought were a better fit and provide better depth. Hopefully they are right in their faith in who their projected starters were to at least give us decent OL play.
That isn't where I was going. I was answering the question from someone else. My point pertaining to your initial post is that I don't think that KC has done much different from us on the OL. I think they look better because of the great playmakers taking the pressure off them. Whether its Mahommes buying a lot of time scrambling, Kelce or Hill creating huge amounts of separation, or Mahommes unbelievable arm, all of these mean the OL has to hold their blocks a lot less, and means that the defenses are structuring to stop Mahommes/Kelce/Hill/Helaire rather than having no fear, putting their ears back, and just attacking.
I actually don't think either OL is all that good, but KC's doesn't need to be.
Very much disagree. Kansas City's GM/Coach do not think their playmakers take pressure off the OL enough, which is why the strategy this year was to retool/rebuild the entire starting OL and create better depth.
And KC hasn't even played a game with this new 5 man OL so how do you already know that they aren't all that good? Isn't this the same comment everybody throws out here all the time in the never ending defense of the Giants?
Still, I thought the OL was coming together at the end of last year. I like what I saw from WH at RG so far. And if nothing else, I'm impressed that they jettisoned the depth they had for guys who they thought were a better fit and provide better depth. Hopefully they are right in their faith in who their projected starters were to at least give us decent OL play.
Johnny - I think their is some optimism for the NY Giant OL too.
Although the complete turnover of the entire bench in the last week, the poor outing by the starting OTs in the last preseason, and now the announcement of Solder being put back on the field (even if only rotational) are all big time red flags...
But yeah, I'm optimistic as usual but yeah definitely still concerned.
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That isn't where I was going. I was answering the question from someone else. My point pertaining to your initial post is that I don't think that KC has done much different from us on the OL. I think they look better because of the great playmakers taking the pressure off them. Whether its Mahommes buying a lot of time scrambling, Kelce or Hill creating huge amounts of separation, or Mahommes unbelievable arm, all of these mean the OL has to hold their blocks a lot less, and means that the defenses are structuring to stop Mahommes/Kelce/Hill/Helaire rather than having no fear, putting their ears back, and just attacking.
I actually don't think either OL is all that good, but KC's doesn't need to be.
Very much disagree. Kansas City's GM/Coach do not think their playmakers take pressure off the OL enough, which is why the strategy this year was to retool/rebuild the entire starting OL and create better depth.
And KC hasn't even played a game with this new 5 man OL so how do you already know that they aren't all that good? Isn't this the same comment everybody throws out here all the time in the never ending defense of the Giants?
Seeing how 3/5 of their OL hasn't played a single NFL game, I don't see how anyone can say they are good (if that is what you are saying). They are very much a question mark until proven differently, like the Giants OL
As I wrote in the OP (once again), their success or not will be on display this season.
I can promise you KC OL will be much better than outs. Orlando Brown has been dominant every year he's been in the NFL and even further going back to Oklahoma. Thuney is just as solid as it gets and the rest of them aren't any better or worse than what we've got 1-5 so... yeah that OL is and will be better than ours, no questions, fuck waiting and seeing how they play first.
When you have weapons all over the field (Mahomes, CEH, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins (until this year) and with those weapons SPEED galore, you present problems for opposing teams in such a way that they (the defense) cannot just try and flat out exploit the OL.
Mahomes benefits more from all that talent than the OL does.
I think when it's all said and done the OL issue in the SB will come out as a bit of an excuse.
Too much hero style ball and not enough unsexy ball control offense (with limited shots) did the Chiefs in a bit, IMO.
I'm sure they will be blamed again once Wilson stops performing.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.
But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.
So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.
Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?
I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?
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Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.
But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.
So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.
Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?
I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?
Well said, and this O line mess has been hashed over 100 times over if not more. Thomas a #4 pick is young, but so far a bust, and Peart who just because a 3rd round pick many on here thinks he is a future all pro, and so far he’s been a bust. WH lost his job last year to a 5th round center who wasn’t to good himself. The Giants so called brain trust have made their bed with this bunch, and they’ll have to lie in it. If it doesn’t pan out, and I don’t think it will then the Giants will have to start all over again from DG, and JJ on down, and set the winning process back even further. Not upgrading this line this off season was professional incompetent.
Let me present an additional take, which could at the end of the day and season be even more damning of the Giants' FO futility--and it has been said often--this past decade the franchise has been mostly inept in identifying talent for the OL.
I believe that OLs generally present the greatest opportunity for misdrafting: that is to say we often see and hear that a 4th or 5th Round pick has stepped in as a starter as a rookie on team x and performed adequately, if not better--they don't have to all be Day 1 and Day 2 picks--imo it's a misconception that talent on OL necessarily traces to draft position. It should help, but in the Giants' case for a decade it has not.
Arbitrarily, I chose the Steelers as a team to focus on. In the 2020 season its OL allowed 14 sacks, the fewest since 1982, the OL went five games in a row without allowing a single sack, and that is with a very immobile (but tough to haul to the ground) Rothliesberger at QB. That OL is now without all of its starters (except one part timer) from 2020, including long entrenched starters, DeCastro and Wisniewski, injured during the 2020 season and no longer even on the roster.
So, who are the Steelers' starters for 2021? Here you go:
LT Dan Moore, Rookie, 4th Round, 128th pick
LG Kevin Dotson, 2nd Year, 4th Round, 135th pick
C Kendall Green, Rookie, 3rd Round, 87th pick
RG Trai Turner, 6th Year, 3rd Round 2014, yep, him
RT Chukwuma Okorafor, 4th Year, 3rd Round, 92nd pick
Other than Dotson, who started four games last year, there is not one holdover starter for the Steelers' OL in 2021.
Thus, Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert (GM), two pretty good football men, are entrusting the offense and protecting Ben to an entirely re-built OL, overwhelmingly young and inexperienced. Will we hear that the Giants' OL is far more talented, owing to the notion largely of their draft position (that's why so many of us love Gates)?
Place your bets
Just a quick housecleaning item, though, on the Steelers OL last year. While they were good at protecting BR, they were 30th in YPA. And that's because BR was getting rid of the ball super-quickly. It was out of necessity because they had no running game due of injuries at RB and the OL just couldn't move anybody.
Let me present an additional take, which could at the end of the day and season be even more damning of the Giants' FO futility--and it has been said often--this past decade the franchise has been mostly inept in identifying talent for the OL.
I believe that OLs generally present the greatest opportunity for misdrafting: that is to say we often see and hear that a 4th or 5th Round pick has stepped in as a starter as a rookie on team x and performed adequately, if not better--they don't have to all be Day 1 and Day 2 picks--imo it's a misconception that talent on OL necessarily traces to draft position. It should help, but in the Giants' case for a decade it has not.
Arbitrarily, I chose the Steelers as a team to focus on. In the 2020 season its OL allowed 14 sacks, the fewest since 1982, the OL went five games in a row without allowing a single sack, and that is with a very immobile (but tough to haul to the ground) Rothliesberger at QB. That OL is now without all of its starters (except one part timer) from 2020, including long entrenched starters, DeCastro and Wisniewski, injured during the 2020 season and no longer even on the roster.
So, who are the Steelers' starters for 2021? Here you go:
LT Dan Moore, Rookie, 4th Round, 128th pick
LG Kevin Dotson, 2nd Year, 4th Round, 135th pick
C Kendall Green, Rookie, 3rd Round, 87th pick
RG Trai Turner, 6th Year, 3rd Round 2014, yep, him
RT Chukwuma Okorafor, 4th Year, 3rd Round, 92nd pick
Other than Dotson, who started four games last year, there is not one holdover starter for the Steelers' OL in 2021.
Thus, Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert (GM), two pretty good football men, are entrusting the offense and protecting Ben to an entirely re-built OL, overwhelmingly young and inexperienced. Will we hear that the Giants' OL is far more talented, owing to the notion largely of their draft position (that's why so many of us love Gates)?
Place your bets
One major difference is that Pittsburg unlike the Giants hasn’t had losing season after losing season, and the Giants O line problems are magnified because of that, and a #4 pick like Thomas doesn’t get much leeway, or time to see if he is any good or not.
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Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.
But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.
So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.
Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?
I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?
Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.
Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.
It's an odd stance because you have a surer thing with two proven Pro Bowl players protecting their QB's blind side.
Beyond that, it's an organization trust factor at this point.
Which begs this question - who do you trust to put together an OL? Gettleman/Judge/Sale? Or Veach/Reid/Heck?
I think their OL will be fine.
I think their OL will be fine.
I think this is the real outcome. With Mahomes, Hill, Kelcie, and Helaire, the OL really doesn't need to be that good.
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Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.
It's an odd stance because you have a surer thing with two proven Pro Bowl players protecting their QB's blind side.
Beyond that, it's an organization trust factor at this point.
Which begs this question - who do you trust to put together an OL? Gettleman/Judge/Sale? Or Veach/Reid/Heck?
I have said my stance numerous times now, so I am dropping this thread. I am not going to be one of the "everything sucks" voices. Yes I would rather have 3 players on the Giants OL at this time than the Chiefs, and 2 players on the Chiefs OL over the Giants.
Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.
I think it's a fair stance too. Rookie O-linemen typically get their heads handed to them a lot in year one, even really good ones.
But as mentioned (again) KC seems to have run a pretty good orchestrated-process of bringing along the young guys all summer in competition against veterans who held the starting job at these positions previously. And the younger guys won the job.
Which is exactly how you want it to work out in the end...
And I find the Orlando Brown praising funny considering how much shit DG caught for trading for a player in a contract year (because supposedly you have no leverage and can just sign guys in FA like it Madden by pressing a button) Rule number one of negotiation, things get easier once you have them in the building.
How much is coaching? How much is the QB/surrounding players?
The Patriots have succeeded with minimal investment in the line. They constantly have good lines. Why?
How much is coaching? How much is the QB/surrounding players?
The Patriots have succeeded with minimal investment in the line. They constantly have good lines. Why?
Well, the Pats had Dante Scarnecchia, who is a brilliant coach.
How much is coaching? How much is the QB/surrounding players?
The Patriots have succeeded with minimal investment in the line. They constantly have good lines. Why?
Well, Scarnecchia for sure. Guy should be in the Hall of Fame. But Belichick has a very good guy for drafting OLs.
I said this the other day. If I were Judge, I would have walked into Mara's office at the end of last year and asked for a blank check. And when Mara said what for, I would have said because it's finally time for a sure thing to fix this OL jinx. And I am going to basically bribe Dante Scarnecchia out of retirement.
[quote] In comment 15356285 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15356019 PatersonPlank said:
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Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.
But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.
So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.
Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?
I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?
Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance. [/quote
Saying you would rather have a washed up RT, and a RG who got benched for a rookie 5th round draft pick last year who wasn’t very good himself is very sound thinking. Only on the Giants would you get high praise like this. HUMPTY Dumpty lives on.
Brown and Thuney aren’t high ceiling players, they are high accomplishment players. Both guys are near All Pro caliber players, who have proven it on the field.
Duvernay-Tardif is a good football player, and his broken hand is about healed. Don’t be surprised if he’s back in the line up in a few weeks.
The Chiefs also have 3 other proven backups in Blythe, Remmers, and Wylie.
Humphrey, Smith, and Niang have beaten pretty decent players.
And I find the Orlando Brown praising funny considering how much shit DG caught for trading for a player in a contract year (because supposedly you have no leverage and can just sign guys in FA like it Madden by pressing a button) Rule number one of negotiation, things get easier once you have them in the building.
Who is saying the KC process is already a win? Please show me that post.
thx
Brown and Thuney aren’t high ceiling players, they are high accomplishment players. Both guys are near All Pro caliber players, who have proven it on the field.
Duvernay-Tardif is a good football player, and his broken hand is about healed. Don’t be surprised if he’s back in the line up in a few weeks.
The Chiefs also have 3 other proven backups in Blythe, Remmers, and Wylie.
Humphrey, Smith, and Niang have beaten pretty decent players.
We keep writing posts that have similar themes. This little dupe handle game isn't going to work out if it continues...
Brown and Thuney aren’t high ceiling players, they are high accomplishment players. Both guys are near All Pro caliber players, who have proven it on the field.
Duvernay-Tardif is a good football player, and his broken hand is about healed. Don’t be surprised if he’s back in the line up in a few weeks.
The Chiefs also have 3 other proven backups in Blythe, Remmers, and Wylie.
Humphrey, Smith, and Niang have beaten pretty decent players.
Remmers? The same guy that was pretty bad while he was here?
FMIC?
Remmers is much better suited as a swing tackle. He’s pretty good in that role.
I have noticed that as well.
But the scandal is not forgotten. So eagerly await the return... ;)
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Remmers? The same guy that was pretty bad while he was here?
Remmers is much better suited as a swing tackle. He’s pretty good in that role.
He did not get better in KC and looked like crap when he had to play after the injuries in the playoffs.
I can't speak for others, but I am getting somewhat concerned that my friend may be stuck in one of those escape hatches he uses all too often...
Are you kidding? I love battling out with him. Of course I miss him.
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It seems that some of you may actually missing fighting with him.
I can't speak for others, but I am getting somewhat concerned that my friend may be stuck in one of those escape hatches he uses all too often...
"Escape hatches" are used often on here by most posters whether that is leaving a thread or intentionally changing the subject.
Anyway, quite a weird turn for this thread.
🙈
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
I think you miss him far more...
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In comment 15356476 crick n NC said:
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It seems that some of you may actually missing fighting with him.
I can't speak for others, but I am getting somewhat concerned that my friend may be stuck in one of those escape hatches he uses all too often...
"Escape hatches" are used often on here by most posters whether that is leaving a thread or intentionally changing the subject.
No, they aren't actually. Just ones with a bit too much hubris...
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
Not better. It was implied that the right side of the Giants line was "preferred" over the right side of KC's.
Nobody said KC got it all correct. The thread was about how they have gone thru a big transformation at all 5 positions at once, and lets see what happens next...
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In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
Not better. It was implied that the right side of the Giants line was "preferred" over the right side of KC's.
Nobody said KC got it all correct. The thread was about how they have gone thru a big transformation at all 5 positions at once, and lets see what happens next...
The implication was clearly that the Chiefs can do this major change all at the same time and get it right. The same point about the 5 changes was brought up on another thread earlier this week.
It really doesn't matter. The Chiefs are great and the Giants? WTF knows.
Of course. Any rational thinking poster would.
Even Paterson Plank.
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In comment 15356498 section125 said:
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In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
Not better. It was implied that the right side of the Giants line was "preferred" over the right side of KC's.
Nobody said KC got it all correct. The thread was about how they have gone thru a big transformation at all 5 positions at once, and lets see what happens next...
The implication was clearly that the Chiefs can do this major change all at the same time and get it right. The same point about the 5 changes was brought up on another thread earlier this week.
It really doesn't matter. The Chiefs are great and the Giants? WTF knows.
I will be fair. I wrote the OP with moreso a challenging "wait and see approach" if KC can rebuild their OL quicker/better in one offseason than it takes the Giants GMs/FO a decade.
I also wrote it because I think the Chiefs GM absolutely did his retool in a blue-print fashion and I am interested in whether he got it right...
I will be fair. I wrote the OP with moreso a challenging "wait and see approach" if KC can rebuild their OL quicker/better in one offseason than it takes the Giants GMs/FO a decade.
I also wrote it because I think the Chiefs GM absolutely did his retool in a blue-print fashion and I am interested in whether he got it right...
Blue-print? There is a blue print? I guess if there is, it is get some guys with some ability and give them to Andy Reid. That would be a good decision.
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
Of course. Any rational thinking poster would.
Even Paterson Plank.
Some of you are real jerks. No wonder people stop posting here.
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In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
Of course. Any rational thinking poster would.
Even Paterson Plank.
Some of you are real jerks. No wonder people stop posting here.
The O line is tied to the success of everything. The QB, the RB, the WR, and the success of the team, or in the Giants case lack of success, and has been dissected over a million times here on a million different threads by all the pundits than can be imagined. Bottom line is that HUMPTY Dumpty can’t be fixed and that’s the bottom line cause Stone Cold says so.
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
Seems like you did, read the first page. The excuse making and minimizing is all over. Bottom line it may not work out, but I’d bet it does. They rebuilt it better with high end talent at every spot:
Brown — dominant LT — why dipshit passed on him in the draft when the OL was in shambles, no idea
Thuney — experienced, high end proven commodity in FA.
Humphrey — was the top rated Center the year before he actually came out of the draft
Smith — arguably the most talented OG in the class who fell because of medicals. Giants apparently didn’t think he was worth a flyer in the 6th round.
Niang — was a top rated Tackle prospect before he had some injuries in college. Chiefs get Niang and we end up with a shitty project in Peart.
Savvy rebuild that’s not rocket science. They added two elite vets and filled out the remainder with high end performers with pedigree. Meanwhile the Giants have meandered around clueless without a plan for the OL for 10+ years.
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In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
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I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
Seems like you did, read the first page. The excuse making and minimizing is all over. Bottom line it may not work out, but I’d bet it does. They rebuilt it better with high end talent at every spot:
Brown — dominant LT — why dipshit passed on him in the draft when the OL was in shambles, no idea
Thuney — experienced, high end proven commodity in FA.
Humphrey — was the top rated Center the year before he actually came out of the draft
Smith — arguably the most talented OG in the class who fell because of medicals. Giants apparently didn’t think he was worth a flyer in the 6th round.
Niang — was a top rated Tackle prospect before he had some injuries in college. Chiefs get Niang and we end up with a shitty project in Peart.
Savvy rebuild that’s not rocket science. They added two elite vets and filled out the remainder with high end performers with pedigree. Meanwhile the Giants have meandered around clueless without a plan for the OL for 10+ years.
Clueless? The fallback plan was Nate Solder, and rummaging through lawn sales for bargains. Clueless is giving them to much credit.