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KC Chiefs: Rebuilding an Offensive Line

Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 10:23 am
Was watching one of the NFL season preview shows last evening and they did a spot on the Chiefs and how they are attempting to replace/retool all 5 starting guys on their (near) championship-level team from a year ago. Since Offensive Line issues are always a constant topic here with regards to how it has been a significant reason of the Giant's decline in the past decade and a clear thorn in the side of any positive traction from Dave Gettleman's overall rebuilding process, I thought it deserved a closer look.

From Sports Illustrated-
The Chiefs completely overhauled their offensive line after injuries and opt-outs forced them to use a makeshift group in the most important game of the season. And when their collection of backups and off-the-scrap-heap fill-ins were dominated by the Buccaneers in the Super Bowl, General Manager Brett Veach wasted no time rebuilding from the ground up.

This is what GM Veach did in a few short months..

Left Tackle- replaced expensive All-Pro Eric Fisher who's injury in the AFC Championship game was really the Chiefs ultimate undoing in the Super Bowl. They gave up a 1st round 2021 pick and swapped a bunch of other picks and landed Orlando Brown Jr, a Pro Bowl OT himself with the Ravens.

Left Guard- down goes Nick Alligretti to bench and he is upgraded with a very solid free agent guard Joe Thuney signed this offseason.

Center- KC lets a fairly average Austin Reiter go this offseason and are inserting promising rookie Creed Humphrey from Oklahoma who they drafted at bottom of Rd 2 this year. Kansas City also signed a capable veteran Center/Guard Austin Blythe in free agency but Humphrey beat him out this summer for the starting gig.

Right Guard- down goes Andrew Wylie to bench and insert drafted rookie Trey Smith from Tennessee in 6th round this year who looks to have won the starting job after his first summer with the team.

Right Tackle- released long-time perennial All-Pro Mitchell Shwartz who was hurt for most of last season and now will insert Lucas Niang who they drafted in 3rd round in 2020. Niang was drafted at nearly same point that the Giants picked their hopeful future Right Tackle Matt Peart, although Niang opted out his rookie year altogether as part of a Covid decision.

So the Chiefs are going to war in 2021 with 5 new starters, including 2 rookies and another player who is also basically a rookie for all practical purposes in Niang. From some of the articles I read, it appears the new look KC Offensive Line was doing pretty well in preseason game snaps and Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes were impressed with the play of all the new faces, how cohesive the overall unit has been during the summer, and that they also may have improved their depth thru a well planned-out competitive process as well.

So what do you think of what GM Veach and the Chiefs have done here on the OL, in just one offseason? Clearly they see that they are in a Super Bowl window period and want to take advantage of it. But on the other hand, some of these moves are with pretty inexpensive young drafted guys to go along with a more expensive trade and free agent signings. Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.

As we all know first hand, rebuilding an entire Offensive Line takes a great deal of time and patience...or does it?
I'm still pissed we took BJ Hill over Orlando Brown  
90.Cal : 9/8/2021 10:27 am : link
Traded up for DeAndre Baker instead of taking Elgton Jenkins and damn Wirfs and Becton look good and Thomas looks bad.... the list goes on, we cannot get the OL right for nothing
Everything always looks  
winoguy : 9/8/2021 10:30 am : link
much better on paper. Lets see what happens when the bullets fly.
When you only have one major issue  
UberAlias : 9/8/2021 10:31 am : link
You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.
Rebuilding  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 10:33 am : link
Starting 2 rookies on a O line is risky, but what they did on the L side of the line is the way to go with 2 proven commodities. Unlike the Giants who way overrated what they had, and went to lawn sales after to try, and fix. I’ve said since FA that signing Thuney would have helped the Giants more than KG.
Lot of gray area here  
GNewGiants : 9/8/2021 10:33 am : link
They are basically going with 3 guys who never played an NFL snap before and signed the most expensive FA OL (Thuney) who may or may not work out.

Plus they gave up a 1st rounder for their 5th OL. So they did use a lot of capital on their left side and from C-RT is a huge unknown. Its very risky but could pay huge dividens. Teams will catch onto their 3 unknown players weaknesses really quick. This a big boom or bust situation.
Andy Reid has always been great at prioritizing OL (back to Runyan)  
Eric on Li : 9/8/2021 10:34 am : link
pretty sure that was his first big free agent move when he got hired in Philly and it obviously helped set them up on the OL for a while.

before anointing KC, they are starting basically 3 rookies so I would expect some growing pains but the trade for Brown and Thuney signing were very good moves. Both will end up being very expensive (both cost more than Solder did for comparison) but I think both have more good football left too.

all that said their defense just keeps getting weaker. every big resource commitment comes with an opportunity cost. I'd have chosen to prioritize protecting Mahomes after what happened last year also but if the rookies on the OL struggle or either big ticket player doesn't have a good year, they could easily wonder whether the picks/$ spent would have been better used adding some talent to a defense that is basically just Chris Jones and Honey badger.
RE: When you only have one major issue  
KDavies : 9/8/2021 10:34 am : link
In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:
Quote:
You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.


This. Chiefs have their franchise QB and made the SB the past two years. Their major issue was their OL. They aren't about to trade a high 1st round pick for a disgruntled OT. As for some of the other moves, the Chiefs used their 1, 2 and 6 on OL, and a 3 last year. Is that really much different than the Giants using a 1, 3, and 5 on OL last year? Whether they are the right players is TBD
RE: RE: When you only have one major issue  
KDavies : 9/8/2021 10:35 am : link
In comment 15355924 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:


Quote:


You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.



This. Chiefs have their franchise QB and made the SB the past two years. Their major issue was their OL. They aren't about to trade a high 1st round pick for a disgruntled OT. As for some of the other moves, the Chiefs used their 1, 2 and 6 on OL, and a 3 last year. Is that really much different than the Giants using a 1, 3, and 5 on OL last year? Whether they are the right players is TBD


Should read the Giants aren't about to trade their high 1st
RE: When you only have one major issue  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 10:36 am : link
In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:
Quote:
You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.


Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.
Starting 3 Rookies could very well have some big 'growing pains'  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 10:40 am : link
for that Offensive Line. But as noted, the Chiefs had veteran alternatives at all three spots and the rookies won their respective jobs in camp this summer. And they can at least turn to a recent former starter if the rookie(s) stumble.

Fairly impressive, and would suggest Chiefs and their coaches seem to know a little about good offensive line play...

RE: RE: When you only have one major issue  
KDavies : 9/8/2021 10:42 am : link
In comment 15355928 Old Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:


Quote:


You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.



Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.


It's not that simple. Look at the separation stats on the Giants WR the past two years. They needed huge upgrades at that position as well. Golladay (and Collin Johnson) are two bigger WRs who can use their size. Toney is an a good route runner that can get open in the short game.

Can we wait to see how they perform before  
robbieballs2003 : 9/8/2021 10:46 am : link
We just say they did a great job?
I have a hard time believing that "talent wise" that KC OL  
PatersonPlank : 9/8/2021 10:48 am : link
is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.

I am offering the theory that having huge weapons like Mahommes, Hill, Kelce, and Helaire, make such an impact on the defense that the OL isn't getting the full thrust of the attack. They need to cover the receivers, keep Mahommes in the pocket, and contain Helaire. All this means a controlled rush, reacting to the offense, rather than just trying to blow up the ol. With the Giants we had no receiver worth a dam, so the defense would just pin its ears back and run-blitz to stop Barkley. When Barkley went down it was ever worse. I think we saw a difference once Jones started to run a little, it loosened up the defense.
RE: When you only have one major issue  
BamaBlue : 9/8/2021 10:51 am : link
In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:
Quote:
You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.


Solving one problem (the biggest) is always better than trying to solve all at the same time. Solving all your problems and not focusing on the most important is how you build a mediocre team.
The draft is a huge TV moneymaker and a profit center  
arniefez : 9/8/2021 10:52 am : link
onto itself for an entire sub industry of mock drafts at this point but its importance to winning football teams is probably still underrated.

With the exception of the Belichick outlier, teams that draft poorly over a 2/3 or more year period become awful teams for at least that long. Hello NY Giants. #2, #6, #4 and not much to show for it and the rest of the drafts haven't produced a single for bowl level player.
I will say this- not defending DG at all  
jvm52106 : 9/8/2021 10:53 am : link
but-

When you have weapons all over the field (Mahomes, CEH, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins (until this year) and with those weapons SPEED galore, you present problems for opposing teams in such a way that they (the defense) cannot just try and flat out exploit the OL.

The Giants of 2020, once Barkley went down had the exact opposite as we had NO real threats and a GLARING lack of speed on the field at our skill positions. Teams were able to load up and come after our run game and our young QB.

It is also hard to compliment the Chiefs who seem to haev lucked out on Trey Smith as all 31 other teams let him slide through 5 rounds (which include some comp picks) and some teams that let him go through round 6 as well.

I am not ready to call anyone a winner yet based on 3 Pre-Season games where most teams were not playing their starters period!
RE: Can we wait to see how they perform before  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 10:55 am : link
In comment 15355940 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
We just say they did a great job?


Agree. If I had only included something like this in my OP...

Quote:
Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.


:-)
I understand the frustration with the offensive line.  
Vin_Cuccs : 9/8/2021 10:56 am : link
It is certainly warranted.

With that said, the Chiefs are in another stratosphere.

The “deficiencies” of that offense (specifically line) are disguised by their all-world QB, future hall of fame coach, and spectacular TE and WR.


RE: I understand the frustration with the offensive line.  
christian : 9/8/2021 11:08 am : link
In comment 15355954 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
It is certainly warranted.

With that said, the Chiefs are in another stratosphere.

The “deficiencies” of that offense (specifically line) are disguised by their all-world QB, future hall of fame coach, and spectacular TE and WR.



And to sweeten the pot, they added 2 All Pro alternate-type lineman.
RE: Everything always looks  
MotownGIANTS : 9/8/2021 11:11 am : link
In comment 15355915 winoguy said:
Quote:
much better on paper. Lets see what happens when the bullets fly.


I think Cleveland's front 7 is going to have a nice game
I’m not convinced  
Dave on the UWS : 9/8/2021 11:19 am : link
KCs talent leve is “far” superior. On paper, our defense runs rings around KCs. What makes the Chiefs so special is 3 things: Mahomes, Mahomes, Mahomes. He has a lot of great weapons, well so do we now. That OL Kyle be a recipe for disaster. I trust Reid to scheme to protect them more than Garrett does here. Those are the major differences.
RE: RE: Can we wait to see how they perform before  
robbieballs2003 : 9/8/2021 11:22 am : link
In comment 15355953 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15355940 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


We just say they did a great job?



Agree. If I had only included something like this in my OP...



Quote:


Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.



:-)


It wasn't directed at you.
I didn't realize  
djm : 9/8/2021 11:24 am : link
the KC OL was in fact fixed? Can they play a game first?

Care to share some of tomorrow's lotto numbers while you're at it?

It was all so easy, just draft a second rounder and 6th rounder and plug em in. Every team should be so lucky. And they don't even have to play a game.
RE: RE: RE: When you only have one major issue  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 11:26 am : link
In comment 15355934 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15355928 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:


Quote:


You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.



Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.



It's not that simple. Look at the separation stats on the Giants WR the past two years. They needed huge upgrades at that position as well. Golladay (and Collin Johnson) are two bigger WRs who can use their size. Toney is an a good route runner that can get open in the short game.


All of this stuff doesn’t mean diddly squat if you don’t have a O line to block, and the Giants don’t have a O line to block. The Giants have drafted. RB at 2, and a QB at 6, and how has that made the team better? It hasn’t, and it won’t until the O line is fixed.
try and imagine this  
djm : 9/8/2021 11:26 am : link
the KC OL is in fact flawed, maybe it's average, or little below average or a little above, but the rest of their talented roster helps pick up that OL unit and the team finds its way to 11-12 wins. And maybe the OL still needs work next off-season.

I guess that can't happen.

RE: I have a hard time believing that  
bw in dc : 9/8/2021 11:31 am : link
In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.



Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?

RE: I have a hard time believing that  
christian : 9/8/2021 11:37 am : link
In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.


The Giants have better lineman than Brown and Thuney?

RE: RE: RE: Can we wait to see how they perform before  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 11:38 am : link
In comment 15355985 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 15355953 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15355940 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


We just say they did a great job?



Agree. If I had only included something like this in my OP...



Quote:


Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.



:-)



It wasn't directed at you.


I figured as much. Mine was only amplifying the same pt...
RE: I didn't realize  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 11:39 am : link
In comment 15355987 djm said:
Quote:
the KC OL was in fact fixed? Can they play a game first?

Care to share some of tomorrow's lotto numbers while you're at it?

It was all so easy, just draft a second rounder and 6th rounder and plug em in. Every team should be so lucky. And they don't even have to play a game.


such as, for this guy...
If Trey Smith’s blood clot problems don’t recur…  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/8/2021 11:40 am : link
… he could be one of the steals of the draft. His health was a small gamble that the Chiefs could easily afford.

No offense to Gary Brightwell and Rodarius Williams, but with Smith starting in KC, one does wonder whether he was on the Giants’ board.
RE: If Trey Smith’s blood clot problems don’t recur…  
bw in dc : 9/8/2021 11:47 am : link
In comment 15356009 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
… he could be one of the steals of the draft. His health was a small gamble that the Chiefs could easily afford.

No offense to Gary Brightwell and Rodarius Williams, but with Smith starting in KC, one does wonder whether he was on the Giants’ board.


Smith got some traction around here as a target pre-draft and during the draft. If he works out for KC, it's a real coup...

As a 6th round pick, he should have been worth the stretch for any team.
RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
PatersonPlank : 9/8/2021 11:48 am : link
In comment 15355996 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.





Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?


As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).

Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
PatersonPlank : 9/8/2021 11:51 am : link
In comment 15356019 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 15355996 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.





Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?




As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).

Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.


If they are doing well, its because of their stud playmakers making their jobs easier. Mahommes moves around and has a great arm, the receivers are open all over the place, and they have a top RB pick (like we do).
I’m glad Googs highlighted this because the success of this effort  
cosmicj : 9/8/2021 11:52 am : link
Will have a big influence on who hoists the next Lombardi trophy.
basically spend 1st-3rd round picks  
Platos : 9/8/2021 11:53 am : link
on OL talent either in trades or by selecting FUCKIN NO BRAINERS like creed humphrey and take flyers on the Trey Smiths who plummet on draft day.

i hate when we pass on guys for no reason just to pack up CB, WR, or DE. who gives a fuck about our 6th CB when our 1st OG can't block worth a damn?
RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 11:54 am : link
In comment 15355996 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.





Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?


It’s thinking like this is why the Giants have been a losing team year after year for the last ten years. Scheme, or playmakers is not the reason, but lack of talent on the O line is, and all the coaching in the world won’t fix like so many dreamers seem to think.
watching a lot of Chiefs games...  
BillKo : 9/8/2021 11:54 am : link
...seems to me Mahomes is creating plays - more than any QB in the league?

He's flushed from the pocket quite often and making either sidearm throws or off balance throws while being pursued.

The SuperBowl was an anomaly but I've watched a lot of their games and he's constantly being flushed.

From a pure pass blocking perspective, I think the Chiefs OL is a bit overrated simply because Mahomes is so calm and elusive in outside the pocket.
RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 12:02 pm : link
In comment 15356019 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 15355996 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.





Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?




As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).

Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.


Enough with the silly annointing them great comments...no one is suggesting it from what I have read.

But more than happy to have a side bet on who has the more stable offensive line this year, NY or KC. Let me know if you want any of that action.

I know we all would love for the Giant OL (and team for that matter) to be better this season. But why is it so hard to take a look at what some other GMs/teams do in addressing their own problems without being defensive about it?
We will see  
ZogZerg : 9/8/2021 12:05 pm : link
Two Rookies and a 3rd rounder from last year who didn't play doesn't sound like the makings for a "Rebuilt" line.

But, KC really doesn't have any options.
Brown will demand Huge money next year. Chiefs may or may not be able to afford it. They certainly can't afford other good vets if they sign Brown to a huge deal.
RE: watching a lot of Chiefs games...  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 12:06 pm : link
In comment 15356031 BillKo said:
Quote:
...seems to me Mahomes is creating plays - more than any QB in the league?

He's flushed from the pocket quite often and making either sidearm throws or off balance throws while being pursued.

The SuperBowl was an anomaly but I've watched a lot of their games and he's constantly being flushed.

You are right in all you say, but like I keep saying the Giants don’t have a Mahomes, or the speed, and weapons he has at his disposal, which is all the more reason the Giants need a better O line, and if not the losing seasons will extend to 5 in a row.
From a pure pass blocking perspective, I think the Chiefs OL is a bit overrated simply because Mahomes is so calm and elusive in outside the pocket.
 
christian : 9/8/2021 12:07 pm : link
The Chiefs have a completely revamped line — Mahome’s previous play is immaterial.

They have two very high pedigree players in Thuney and Brown. The three young players in the lineup beat out legitimate NFL players in Remmers, Blythe, and Tardif.

Comparisons between the Giants and Chiefs are pretty silly. They have better top line talent and depth.

The only players on the Giants who would make the Chiefs roster are Thomas and Gates.
When the only thing you have to do is fix one unit it looks easy  
BillT : 9/8/2021 12:08 pm : link
The Giants coming into this offseason had to fix the OL, the WR, the pass rush and find a #2 CB. All things considered I think we did better job than KC. But if all you want to do with a post is say bad things about the Giants then this was a great post.
RE: Starting 3 Rookies could very well have some big 'growing pains'  
Johnny5 : 9/8/2021 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15355933 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
for that Offensive Line. But as noted, the Chiefs had veteran alternatives at all three spots and the rookies won their respective jobs in camp this summer. And they can at least turn to a recent former starter if the rookie(s) stumble.

Fairly impressive, and would suggest Chiefs and their coaches seem to know a little about good offensive line play...

One thing you can say about Andy Reid, he knows OL. But we don't know yet clearly. Those 3 rookies should be certainly be interesting. Their problem was OL depth to my mind. Their starting guys for much of last year were good enough to win. It's when they went down that was the issue.

I would certainly trust Reid's opinion on OL over anyone on the Giants at this point... but I can say with some hope/optimism is I like the fact that we were really addressing depth on those last 2 moves on Price and Bredeson. That signifies that Judge and co. really are ready to go to battle with who they had slated to start, they saw they needed much better depth and they addressed it. Judge said as much that the best time to upgrade depth is when it comes time for the cutdowns to 53.
RE: When the only thing you have to do is fix one unit it looks easy  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 12:16 pm : link
In comment 15356054 BillT said:
Quote:
The Giants coming into this offseason had to fix the OL, the WR, the pass rush and find a #2 CB. All things considered I think we did better job than KC. But if all you want to do with a post is say bad things about the Giants then this was a great post.


I am confused Bill. Didn't the Giants begin the offseason process with all of the expected 5 OL starters already on the team and under contract?

They made a lot of changes affecting backups/depth but since they really didn't address the OL in early free agency or draft, they assumed they had the solutions in place. If they really needed to fix the starting OL in their eyes, then they forgot...
.  
crick n NC : 9/8/2021 12:22 pm : link
Quote:
As we all know first hand, rebuilding an entire Offensive Line takes a great deal of time and patience...or does it?


It isn't an either/or necessarily. There are multiple factors that go into building a successful unit, not excluding good fortune.
RE: RE: RE: When you only have one major issue  
Victor in CT : 9/8/2021 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15355934 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15355928 Old Blue said:


Quote:


In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:


Quote:


You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.



Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.



It's not that simple. Look at the separation stats on the Giants WR the past two years. They needed huge upgrades at that position as well. Golladay (and Collin Johnson) are two bigger WRs who can use their size. Toney is an a good route runner that can get open in the short game.


Good points, and also prompts a question: were the WR stats due to Garrett's route trees and play designs or the talent? Will they stretch the field with the new toys, or will it be 4 guys running the same old 5-7 yd routes in traffic?? I'm really interested to see how the offense evolves.
RE: When the only thing you have to do is fix one unit it looks easy  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15356054 BillT said:
Quote:
The Giants coming into this offseason had to fix the OL, the WR, the pass rush and find a #2 CB. All things considered I think we did better job than KC. But if all you want to do with a post is say bad things about the Giants then this was a great post.


All those areas needed upgrades, but NONE were more Important than the O line that they DID NOT upgrade, so that’s why they are getting all the bad things said, and deservedly so.
Agree with Eric LI  
Lines of Scrimmage : 9/8/2021 12:24 pm : link
Reid has always made it a priority. He was first a OL coach and definitely has a very strong ability identifying potential talent and getting the most out of it.

One thing that remains to be seen is with all the attention paid to the OL will they have a big deficiency elsewhere? Let's see how the defense is.

RE: RE: Starting 3 Rookies could very well have some big 'growing pains'  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15356069 Johnny5

I would certainly trust Reid's opinion on OL over anyone on the Giants at this point... but I can say with some hope/optimism is I like the fact that we were really addressing depth on those last 2 moves on Price and Bredeson. That signifies that Judge and co. really are ready to go to battle with who they had slated to start, they saw they needed much better depth and they addressed it. Judge said as much that the best time to upgrade depth is when it comes time for the cutdowns to 53. [/quote]

Looks like the KC approach to improve their depth was quite a bit different.

They targeted a few All Pro/Pro Bowl players as immediate replacements, and then trusted their draft process to find talent that just beat out other veteran starters for their respective jobs this summer. Now they have a fairly reliable bench to boot...
RE: RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
PatersonPlank : 9/8/2021 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15356043 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15356019 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


In comment 15355996 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.





Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?




As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).

Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.



Enough with the silly annointing them great comments...no one is suggesting it from what I have read.

But more than happy to have a side bet on who has the more stable offensive line this year, NY or KC. Let me know if you want any of that action.

I know we all would love for the Giant OL (and team for that matter) to be better this season. But why is it so hard to take a look at what some other GMs/teams do in addressing their own problems without being defensive about it?


That isn't where I was going. I was answering the question from someone else. My point pertaining to your initial post is that I don't think that KC has done much different from us on the OL. I think they look better because of the great playmakers taking the pressure off them. Whether its Mahommes buying a lot of time scrambling, Kelce or Hill creating huge amounts of separation, or Mahommes unbelievable arm, all of these mean the OL has to hold their blocks a lot less, and means that the defenses are structuring to stop Mahommes/Kelce/Hill/Helaire rather than having no fear, putting their ears back, and just attacking.

I actually don't think either OL is all that good, but KC's doesn't need to be.
Re-posting this Johnny as formatting got screwed...  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 12:31 pm : link
In comment 15356069 Johnny5 said:
Quote:

I would certainly trust Reid's opinion on OL over anyone on the Giants at this point... but I can say with some hope/optimism is I like the fact that we were really addressing depth on those last 2 moves on Price and Bredeson. That signifies that Judge and co. really are ready to go to battle with who they had slated to start, they saw they needed much better depth and they addressed it. Judge said as much that the best time to upgrade depth is when it comes time for the cutdowns to 53.




Looks like the KC approach to improve their depth was quite a bit different.

They targeted a few All Pro/Pro Bowl players as immediate replacements, and then trusted their draft process to find talent that just beat out other veteran starters for their respective jobs this summer. Now they have a fairly reliable bench to boot...
Googs  
Johnny5 : 9/8/2021 12:31 pm : link
I don't disagree, but with the injuries they had no choice but to upgrade both depth and starters. It wouldn't be a surprise to me to find out that they drafted better OL than the Giants though... lol.

Still, I thought the OL was coming together at the end of last year. I like what I saw from WH at RG so far. And if nothing else, I'm impressed that they jettisoned the depth they had for guys who they thought were a better fit and provide better depth. Hopefully they are right in their faith in who their projected starters were to at least give us decent OL play.
I will also add that KC's overall situation is much different than  
PatersonPlank : 9/8/2021 12:35 pm : link
ours. With relatively few holes to fill, they could afford to spend a lot on the vets to fill LT and LG. We had a lot to fill, so one chunk of money wasn't going to cover everything. The choice seems to be to spend on the defense, bringing in what I think are some really good players, and build the OL through the draft (please note I am not saying we have done a good or bad job at this). All I am saying is I understand the approach and it certainly is resonable
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 12:37 pm : link
In comment 15356096 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:


That isn't where I was going. I was answering the question from someone else. My point pertaining to your initial post is that I don't think that KC has done much different from us on the OL. I think they look better because of the great playmakers taking the pressure off them. Whether its Mahommes buying a lot of time scrambling, Kelce or Hill creating huge amounts of separation, or Mahommes unbelievable arm, all of these mean the OL has to hold their blocks a lot less, and means that the defenses are structuring to stop Mahommes/Kelce/Hill/Helaire rather than having no fear, putting their ears back, and just attacking.

I actually don't think either OL is all that good, but KC's doesn't need to be.


Very much disagree. Kansas City's GM/Coach do not think their playmakers take pressure off the OL enough, which is why the strategy this year was to retool/rebuild the entire starting OL and create better depth.

And KC hasn't even played a game with this new 5 man OL so how do you already know that they aren't all that good? Isn't this the same comment everybody throws out here all the time in the never ending defense of the Giants?
RE: Googs  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 12:41 pm : link
In comment 15356098 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
I don't disagree, but with the injuries they had no choice but to upgrade both depth and starters. It wouldn't be a surprise to me to find out that they drafted better OL than the Giants though... lol.

Still, I thought the OL was coming together at the end of last year. I like what I saw from WH at RG so far. And if nothing else, I'm impressed that they jettisoned the depth they had for guys who they thought were a better fit and provide better depth. Hopefully they are right in their faith in who their projected starters were to at least give us decent OL play.


Johnny - I think their is some optimism for the NY Giant OL too.

Although the complete turnover of the entire bench in the last week, the poor outing by the starting OTs in the last preseason, and now the announcement of Solder being put back on the field (even if only rotational) are all big time red flags...
I hear ya  
Johnny5 : 9/8/2021 12:53 pm : link
I'm less concerned about the turnover of the depth (but in truth it's because I liked Harrison and Slade). If they were that much higher on Price and Bredeson, I'm all for it. Thomas also I read (and/or heard) he may have been working on different drop technique which is why they were running stick routes in the 1st half. Based on his play the 2nd half of last year I'm also less worried about him. I do agree 100% though that Peart has seemed to regress and that is very concerning. I am just hoping it's because he bulked up and is still getting used to the additional weight on his footwork, etc.

But yeah, I'm optimistic as usual but yeah definitely still concerned.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
PatersonPlank : 9/8/2021 1:04 pm : link
In comment 15356109 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15356096 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:




That isn't where I was going. I was answering the question from someone else. My point pertaining to your initial post is that I don't think that KC has done much different from us on the OL. I think they look better because of the great playmakers taking the pressure off them. Whether its Mahommes buying a lot of time scrambling, Kelce or Hill creating huge amounts of separation, or Mahommes unbelievable arm, all of these mean the OL has to hold their blocks a lot less, and means that the defenses are structuring to stop Mahommes/Kelce/Hill/Helaire rather than having no fear, putting their ears back, and just attacking.

I actually don't think either OL is all that good, but KC's doesn't need to be.



Very much disagree. Kansas City's GM/Coach do not think their playmakers take pressure off the OL enough, which is why the strategy this year was to retool/rebuild the entire starting OL and create better depth.

And KC hasn't even played a game with this new 5 man OL so how do you already know that they aren't all that good? Isn't this the same comment everybody throws out here all the time in the never ending defense of the Giants?


Seeing how 3/5 of their OL hasn't played a single NFL game, I don't see how anyone can say they are good (if that is what you are saying). They are very much a question mark until proven differently, like the Giants OL
Not sure I have even mentioned that once. This was about  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 1:10 pm : link
the massive overhaul KC was executing on their entire OL unit in just one single offseason.

As I wrote in the OP (once again), their success or not will be on display this season.
Yeah, in one single offseason KC  
90.Cal : 9/8/2021 1:19 pm : link
Got 2 All Pro caliber OL... thats 2 more than we've gotten in 10 offseasons...
But yeah let's just wait and see how it plays out  
90.Cal : 9/8/2021 1:22 pm : link
Like we haven't seen this shit 10 years straight now let's see an 11th time and see if it's any better.

I can promise you KC OL will be much better than outs. Orlando Brown has been dominant every year he's been in the NFL and even further going back to Oklahoma. Thuney is just as solid as it gets and the rest of them aren't any better or worse than what we've got 1-5 so... yeah that OL is and will be better than ours, no questions, fuck waiting and seeing how they play first.
RE: I will say this- not defending DG at all  
NINEster : 9/8/2021 2:13 pm : link
In comment 15355949 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
but-

When you have weapons all over the field (Mahomes, CEH, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins (until this year) and with those weapons SPEED galore, you present problems for opposing teams in such a way that they (the defense) cannot just try and flat out exploit the OL.


Mahomes benefits more from all that talent than the OL does.

I think when it's all said and done the OL issue in the SB will come out as a bit of an excuse.

Too much hero style ball and not enough unsexy ball control offense (with limited shots) did the Chiefs in a bit, IMO.
Seahawks have 11 OL  
NINEster : 9/8/2021 2:15 pm : link
on their final 53, lol.

I'm sure they will be blamed again once Wilson stops performing.
RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
bw in dc : 9/8/2021 3:49 pm : link
In comment 15356019 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:

Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?




As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).

Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.


I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.

But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.

So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.

Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?

I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?
RE: RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 4:39 pm : link
In comment 15356285 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15356019 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:



Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?




As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).

Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.



I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.

But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.

So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.

Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?

I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?


Well said, and this O line mess has been hashed over 100 times over if not more. Thomas a #4 pick is young, but so far a bust, and Peart who just because a 3rd round pick many on here thinks he is a future all pro, and so far he’s been a bust. WH lost his job last year to a 5th round center who wasn’t to good himself. The Giants so called brain trust have made their bed with this bunch, and they’ll have to lie in it. If it doesn’t pan out, and I don’t think it will then the Giants will have to start all over again from DG, and JJ on down, and set the winning process back even further. Not upgrading this line this off season was professional incompetent.
Googs' thread is a thoughtful, if tangential, way at  
ColHowPepper : 9/8/2021 5:39 pm : link
getting to, exploring, what ails the NY Giants' OL.

Let me present an additional take, which could at the end of the day and season be even more damning of the Giants' FO futility--and it has been said often--this past decade the franchise has been mostly inept in identifying talent for the OL.

I believe that OLs generally present the greatest opportunity for misdrafting: that is to say we often see and hear that a 4th or 5th Round pick has stepped in as a starter as a rookie on team x and performed adequately, if not better--they don't have to all be Day 1 and Day 2 picks--imo it's a misconception that talent on OL necessarily traces to draft position. It should help, but in the Giants' case for a decade it has not.

Arbitrarily, I chose the Steelers as a team to focus on. In the 2020 season its OL allowed 14 sacks, the fewest since 1982, the OL went five games in a row without allowing a single sack, and that is with a very immobile (but tough to haul to the ground) Rothliesberger at QB. That OL is now without all of its starters (except one part timer) from 2020, including long entrenched starters, DeCastro and Wisniewski, injured during the 2020 season and no longer even on the roster.

So, who are the Steelers' starters for 2021? Here you go:

LT Dan Moore, Rookie, 4th Round, 128th pick
LG Kevin Dotson, 2nd Year, 4th Round, 135th pick
C Kendall Green, Rookie, 3rd Round, 87th pick
RG Trai Turner, 6th Year, 3rd Round 2014, yep, him
RT Chukwuma Okorafor, 4th Year, 3rd Round, 92nd pick

Other than Dotson, who started four games last year, there is not one holdover starter for the Steelers' OL in 2021.

Thus, Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert (GM), two pretty good football men, are entrusting the offense and protecting Ben to an entirely re-built OL, overwhelmingly young and inexperienced. Will we hear that the Giants' OL is far more talented, owing to the notion largely of their draft position (that's why so many of us love Gates)?

Place your bets

ColHowPepper...  
bw in dc : 9/8/2021 5:50 pm : link
Interesting post. The Steelers will be an excellent proxy this year. An OL of non-descript players for sure.

Just a quick housecleaning item, though, on the Steelers OL last year. While they were good at protecting BR, they were 30th in YPA. And that's because BR was getting rid of the ball super-quickly. It was out of necessity because they had no running game due of injuries at RB and the OL just couldn't move anybody.
RE: Googs' thread is a thoughtful, if tangential, way at  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 5:58 pm : link
In comment 15356355 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
getting to, exploring, what ails the NY Giants' OL.

Let me present an additional take, which could at the end of the day and season be even more damning of the Giants' FO futility--and it has been said often--this past decade the franchise has been mostly inept in identifying talent for the OL.

I believe that OLs generally present the greatest opportunity for misdrafting: that is to say we often see and hear that a 4th or 5th Round pick has stepped in as a starter as a rookie on team x and performed adequately, if not better--they don't have to all be Day 1 and Day 2 picks--imo it's a misconception that talent on OL necessarily traces to draft position. It should help, but in the Giants' case for a decade it has not.

Arbitrarily, I chose the Steelers as a team to focus on. In the 2020 season its OL allowed 14 sacks, the fewest since 1982, the OL went five games in a row without allowing a single sack, and that is with a very immobile (but tough to haul to the ground) Rothliesberger at QB. That OL is now without all of its starters (except one part timer) from 2020, including long entrenched starters, DeCastro and Wisniewski, injured during the 2020 season and no longer even on the roster.

So, who are the Steelers' starters for 2021? Here you go:

LT Dan Moore, Rookie, 4th Round, 128th pick
LG Kevin Dotson, 2nd Year, 4th Round, 135th pick
C Kendall Green, Rookie, 3rd Round, 87th pick
RG Trai Turner, 6th Year, 3rd Round 2014, yep, him
RT Chukwuma Okorafor, 4th Year, 3rd Round, 92nd pick

Other than Dotson, who started four games last year, there is not one holdover starter for the Steelers' OL in 2021.

Thus, Mike Tomlin and Kevin Colbert (GM), two pretty good football men, are entrusting the offense and protecting Ben to an entirely re-built OL, overwhelmingly young and inexperienced. Will we hear that the Giants' OL is far more talented, owing to the notion largely of their draft position (that's why so many of us love Gates)?

Place your bets

One major difference is that Pittsburg unlike the Giants hasn’t had losing season after losing season, and the Giants O line problems are magnified because of that, and a #4 pick like Thomas doesn’t get much leeway, or time to see if he is any good or not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
PatersonPlank : 9/8/2021 6:28 pm : link
In comment 15356285 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15356019 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:



Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?




As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).

Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.



I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.

But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.

So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.

Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?

I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?


Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
bw in dc : 9/8/2021 6:48 pm : link
In comment 15356386 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:

Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.


It's an odd stance because you have a surer thing with two proven Pro Bowl players protecting their QB's blind side.

Beyond that, it's an organization trust factor at this point.

Which begs this question - who do you trust to put together an OL? Gettleman/Judge/Sale? Or Veach/Reid/Heck?
Once you get punched in the mouth  
Giant John : 9/8/2021 7:06 pm : link
Game plan is gone. We will see how the oline works together.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/8/2021 7:09 pm : link
Well, the Chiefs also have Mahomes so...

I think their OL will be fine.
RE: ...  
PatersonPlank : 9/8/2021 7:12 pm : link
In comment 15356420 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Well, the Chiefs also have Mahomes so...

I think their OL will be fine.


I think this is the real outcome. With Mahomes, Hill, Kelcie, and Helaire, the OL really doesn't need to be that good.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
PatersonPlank : 9/8/2021 7:15 pm : link
In comment 15356399 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15356386 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:



Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.



It's an odd stance because you have a surer thing with two proven Pro Bowl players protecting their QB's blind side.

Beyond that, it's an organization trust factor at this point.

Which begs this question - who do you trust to put together an OL? Gettleman/Judge/Sale? Or Veach/Reid/Heck?


I have said my stance numerous times now, so I am dropping this thread. I am not going to be one of the "everything sucks" voices. Yes I would rather have 3 players on the Giants OL at this time than the Chiefs, and 2 players on the Chiefs OL over the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 7:16 pm : link
In comment 15356386 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:



Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance.


I think it's a fair stance too. Rookie O-linemen typically get their heads handed to them a lot in year one, even really good ones.

But as mentioned (again) KC seems to have run a pretty good orchestrated-process of bringing along the young guys all summer in competition against veterans who held the starting job at these positions previously. And the younger guys won the job.

Which is exactly how you want it to work out in the end...
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/8/2021 7:19 pm : link
Listen, the bottom-line is that the Chiefs FO deserves much more of the benefit of the doubt than the Giants FO. That's a well run organization.
The season hasn't even started yet and you are declaring  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/8/2021 7:20 pm : link
this process a win? The amount of twisting some people will do to paint this organization in a bad light is unbelievable.

And I find the Orlando Brown praising funny considering how much shit DG caught for trading for a player in a contract year (because supposedly you have no leverage and can just sign guys in FA like it Madden by pressing a button) Rule number one of negotiation, things get easier once you have them in the building.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 9/8/2021 7:28 pm : link
I think if KC succeeds and the Giants fail, it raises interesting questions about what makes an OL succeed.

How much is coaching? How much is the QB/surrounding players?

The Patriots have succeeded with minimal investment in the line. They constantly have good lines. Why?
RE: .....  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/8/2021 7:31 pm : link
In comment 15356440 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I think if KC succeeds and the Giants fail, it raises interesting questions about what makes an OL succeed.

How much is coaching? How much is the QB/surrounding players?

The Patriots have succeeded with minimal investment in the line. They constantly have good lines. Why?


Well, the Pats had Dante Scarnecchia, who is a brilliant coach.
RE: .....  
bw in dc : 9/8/2021 7:40 pm : link
In comment 15356440 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I think if KC succeeds and the Giants fail, it raises interesting questions about what makes an OL succeed.

How much is coaching? How much is the QB/surrounding players?

The Patriots have succeeded with minimal investment in the line. They constantly have good lines. Why?


Well, Scarnecchia for sure. Guy should be in the Hall of Fame. But Belichick has a very good guy for drafting OLs.

I said this the other day. If I were Judge, I would have walked into Mara's office at the end of last year and asked for a blank check. And when Mara said what for, I would have said because it's finally time for a sure thing to fix this OL jinx. And I am going to basically bribe Dante Scarnecchia out of retirement.
Hate my phone...  
bw in dc : 9/8/2021 7:41 pm : link
Should say Belichick has a very eye for drafting OLs...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I have a hard time believing that  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 7:43 pm : link
In comment 15356386 PatersonPlank said:
[quote] In comment 15356285 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15356019 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:



Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?




As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).

Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.



I'm not anointing the KC OL anything. They do have things to prove.

But they have two Pro Bowl players on the left side. Players who are, arguably, top 10 at their respective positions. We don't have anything near that.

So to suggest the situations are comparable rings hollow.

Who do you think Jones would rather have protecting his blind side right now? Thomas and Lemieux/Bredeson or Orlando Brown and Joe Thunay?

I mean, do you have to think about that seriously for more than a second?



Of course I'd rather have the left side of KC's line, who wouldn't. However right now I'd rather have Gates/WH/Solder than the right side of KC's line. 3 guys with a combined 0 NFL games between them. I really don't understand why this is a controversial stance. [/quote

Saying you would rather have a washed up RT, and a RG who got benched for a rookie 5th round draft pick last year who wasn’t very good himself is very sound thinking. Only on the Giants would you get high praise like this. HUMPTY Dumpty lives on.
 
christian : 9/8/2021 7:44 pm : link
The Chiefs situation couldn’t be any different than the Giants.

Brown and Thuney aren’t high ceiling players, they are high accomplishment players. Both guys are near All Pro caliber players, who have proven it on the field.

Duvernay-Tardif is a good football player, and his broken hand is about healed. Don’t be surprised if he’s back in the line up in a few weeks.

The Chiefs also have 3 other proven backups in Blythe, Remmers, and Wylie.

Humphrey, Smith, and Niang have beaten pretty decent players.
I think Oline is  
section125 : 9/8/2021 7:46 pm : link
very much on the coaching. Most players are pretty much equal ability save a few special players. I think that is why they brought in Sale and brought Flats back.
RE: The season hasn't even started yet and you are declaring  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 7:47 pm : link
In comment 15356431 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
this process a win? The amount of twisting some people will do to paint this organization in a bad light is unbelievable.

And I find the Orlando Brown praising funny considering how much shit DG caught for trading for a player in a contract year (because supposedly you have no leverage and can just sign guys in FA like it Madden by pressing a button) Rule number one of negotiation, things get easier once you have them in the building.


Who is saying the KC process is already a win? Please show me that post.

thx

RE: …  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 7:51 pm : link
In comment 15356449 christian said:
Quote:
The Chiefs situation couldn’t be any different than the Giants.

Brown and Thuney aren’t high ceiling players, they are high accomplishment players. Both guys are near All Pro caliber players, who have proven it on the field.

Duvernay-Tardif is a good football player, and his broken hand is about healed. Don’t be surprised if he’s back in the line up in a few weeks.

The Chiefs also have 3 other proven backups in Blythe, Remmers, and Wylie.

Humphrey, Smith, and Niang have beaten pretty decent players.


We keep writing posts that have similar themes. This little dupe handle game isn't going to work out if it continues...
RE: …  
section125 : 9/8/2021 7:55 pm : link
In comment 15356449 christian said:
Quote:
The Chiefs situation couldn’t be any different than the Giants.

Brown and Thuney aren’t high ceiling players, they are high accomplishment players. Both guys are near All Pro caliber players, who have proven it on the field.

Duvernay-Tardif is a good football player, and his broken hand is about healed. Don’t be surprised if he’s back in the line up in a few weeks.

The Chiefs also have 3 other proven backups in Blythe, Remmers, and Wylie.

Humphrey, Smith, and Niang have beaten pretty decent players.


Remmers? The same guy that was pretty bad while he was here?
 
christian : 9/8/2021 7:57 pm : link
Speaking of which, someone has been particularly quiet lately. It’s been nice.
RE: …  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/8/2021 8:01 pm : link
In comment 15356460 christian said:
Quote:
Speaking of which, someone has been particularly quiet lately. It’s been nice.


FMIC?
RE: RE: …  
christian : 9/8/2021 8:03 pm : link
In comment 15356457 section125 said:
Quote:
Remmers? The same guy that was pretty bad while he was here?


Remmers is much better suited as a swing tackle. He’s pretty good in that role.
So much less drama that it's like night and day on here.  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 8:04 pm : link
A few connected others have also calmed down. Have you noticed that as well?

RE: …  
bw in dc : 9/8/2021 8:15 pm : link
In comment 15356460 christian said:
Quote:
Speaking of which, someone has been particularly quiet lately. It’s been nice.


I have noticed that as well.

But the scandal is not forgotten. So eagerly await the return... ;)
From my view  
crick n NC : 9/8/2021 8:17 pm : link
It seems that some of you may actually missing fighting with him.
RE: RE: RE: …  
section125 : 9/8/2021 8:19 pm : link
In comment 15356463 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15356457 section125 said:


Quote:


Remmers? The same guy that was pretty bad while he was here?



Remmers is much better suited as a swing tackle. He’s pretty good in that role.


He did not get better in KC and looked like crap when he had to play after the injuries in the playoffs.
RE: From my view  
bw in dc : 9/8/2021 8:24 pm : link
In comment 15356476 crick n NC said:
Quote:
It seems that some of you may actually missing fighting with him.


I can't speak for others, but I am getting somewhat concerned that my friend may be stuck in one of those escape hatches he uses all too often...
Some of the comments are laughable  
WillVAB : 9/8/2021 8:28 pm : link
I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.
RE: From my view  
christian : 9/8/2021 8:28 pm : link
In comment 15356476 crick n NC said:
Quote:
It seems that some of you may actually missing fighting with him.


Are you kidding? I love battling out with him. Of course I miss him.
RE: RE: From my view  
crick n NC : 9/8/2021 8:29 pm : link
In comment 15356481 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15356476 crick n NC said:


Quote:


It seems that some of you may actually missing fighting with him.



I can't speak for others, but I am getting somewhat concerned that my friend may be stuck in one of those escape hatches he uses all too often...


"Escape hatches" are used often on here by most posters whether that is leaving a thread or intentionally changing the subject.

Anyway, quite a weird turn for this thread.
RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 8:32 pm : link
In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
Quote:
I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.


🙈
RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
section125 : 9/8/2021 8:40 pm : link
In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
Quote:
I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.


I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.
RE: From my view  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 8:42 pm : link
In comment 15356476 crick n NC said:
Quote:
It seems that some of you may actually missing fighting with him.


I think you miss him far more...
RE: RE: RE: From my view  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 8:44 pm : link
In comment 15356489 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 15356481 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15356476 crick n NC said:


Quote:


It seems that some of you may actually missing fighting with him.



I can't speak for others, but I am getting somewhat concerned that my friend may be stuck in one of those escape hatches he uses all too often...



"Escape hatches" are used often on here by most posters whether that is leaving a thread or intentionally changing the subject.



No, they aren't actually. Just ones with a bit too much hubris...
RE: RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 8:49 pm : link
In comment 15356498 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.



I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.


Not better. It was implied that the right side of the Giants line was "preferred" over the right side of KC's.

Nobody said KC got it all correct. The thread was about how they have gone thru a big transformation at all 5 positions at once, and lets see what happens next...
RE: RE: RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
section125 : 9/8/2021 9:05 pm : link
In comment 15356506 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15356498 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.



I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.



Not better. It was implied that the right side of the Giants line was "preferred" over the right side of KC's.

Nobody said KC got it all correct. The thread was about how they have gone thru a big transformation at all 5 positions at once, and lets see what happens next...


The implication was clearly that the Chiefs can do this major change all at the same time and get it right. The same point about the 5 changes was brought up on another thread earlier this week.

It really doesn't matter. The Chiefs are great and the Giants? WTF knows.
RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
bw in dc : 9/8/2021 9:15 pm : link
In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:
Quote:
I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.


Of course. Any rational thinking poster would.

Even Paterson Plank.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2021 9:24 pm : link
In comment 15356512 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15356506 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15356498 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.



I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.



Not better. It was implied that the right side of the Giants line was "preferred" over the right side of KC's.

Nobody said KC got it all correct. The thread was about how they have gone thru a big transformation at all 5 positions at once, and lets see what happens next...



The implication was clearly that the Chiefs can do this major change all at the same time and get it right. The same point about the 5 changes was brought up on another thread earlier this week.

It really doesn't matter. The Chiefs are great and the Giants? WTF knows.


I will be fair. I wrote the OP with moreso a challenging "wait and see approach" if KC can rebuild their OL quicker/better in one offseason than it takes the Giants GMs/FO a decade.

I also wrote it because I think the Chiefs GM absolutely did his retool in a blue-print fashion and I am interested in whether he got it right...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
section125 : 9/8/2021 9:31 pm : link
In comment 15356524 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


I will be fair. I wrote the OP with moreso a challenging "wait and see approach" if KC can rebuild their OL quicker/better in one offseason than it takes the Giants GMs/FO a decade.

I also wrote it because I think the Chiefs GM absolutely did his retool in a blue-print fashion and I am interested in whether he got it right...


Blue-print? There is a blue print? I guess if there is, it is get some guys with some ability and give them to Andy Reid. That would be a good decision.
RE: RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
PatersonPlank : 9/8/2021 9:33 pm : link
In comment 15356518 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.



Of course. Any rational thinking poster would.

Even Paterson Plank.


Some of you are real jerks. No wonder people stop posting here.
RE: RE: RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 10:02 pm : link
In comment 15356532 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 15356518 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.



Of course. Any rational thinking poster would.

Even Paterson Plank.



Some of you are real jerks. No wonder people stop posting here.


The O line is tied to the success of everything. The QB, the RB, the WR, and the success of the team, or in the Giants case lack of success, and has been dissected over a million times here on a million different threads by all the pundits than can be imagined. Bottom line is that HUMPTY Dumpty can’t be fixed and that’s the bottom line cause Stone Cold says so.
RE: RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
WillVAB : 9/8/2021 10:05 pm : link
In comment 15356498 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.



I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.


Seems like you did, read the first page. The excuse making and minimizing is all over. Bottom line it may not work out, but I’d bet it does. They rebuilt it better with high end talent at every spot:

Brown — dominant LT — why dipshit passed on him in the draft when the OL was in shambles, no idea

Thuney — experienced, high end proven commodity in FA.

Humphrey — was the top rated Center the year before he actually came out of the draft

Smith — arguably the most talented OG in the class who fell because of medicals. Giants apparently didn’t think he was worth a flyer in the 6th round.

Niang — was a top rated Tackle prospect before he had some injuries in college. Chiefs get Niang and we end up with a shitty project in Peart.

Savvy rebuild that’s not rocket science. They added two elite vets and filled out the remainder with high end performers with pedigree. Meanwhile the Giants have meandered around clueless without a plan for the OL for 10+ years.
RE: RE: RE: Some of the comments are laughable  
Old Blue : 9/8/2021 10:14 pm : link
In comment 15356557 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 15356498 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15356485 WillVAB said:


Quote:


I’d trade the Giants OL for the Chiefs OL right now straight up no questions asked.



I guess I missed where somebody said the Giants line was better than the Chiefs. I think people said just because they changed people does not mean they got it correct. Knowing Andy Reid they probably did get it right. Their line was pretty good until both starting tackles got hurt at the end of the year.



Seems like you did, read the first page. The excuse making and minimizing is all over. Bottom line it may not work out, but I’d bet it does. They rebuilt it better with high end talent at every spot:

Brown — dominant LT — why dipshit passed on him in the draft when the OL was in shambles, no idea

Thuney — experienced, high end proven commodity in FA.

Humphrey — was the top rated Center the year before he actually came out of the draft

Smith — arguably the most talented OG in the class who fell because of medicals. Giants apparently didn’t think he was worth a flyer in the 6th round.

Niang — was a top rated Tackle prospect before he had some injuries in college. Chiefs get Niang and we end up with a shitty project in Peart.

Savvy rebuild that’s not rocket science. They added two elite vets and filled out the remainder with high end performers with pedigree. Meanwhile the Giants have meandered around clueless without a plan for the OL for 10+ years.


Clueless? The fallback plan was Nate Solder, and rummaging through lawn sales for bargains. Clueless is giving them to much credit.
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