Was watching one of the NFL season preview shows last evening and they did a spot on the Chiefs and how they are attempting to replace/retool all 5 starting guys on their (near) championship-level team from a year ago. Since Offensive Line issues are always a constant topic here with regards to how it has been a significant reason of the Giant's decline in the past decade and a clear thorn in the side of any positive traction from Dave Gettleman's overall rebuilding process, I thought it deserved a closer look.
From Sports Illustrated-
The Chiefs completely overhauled their offensive line after injuries and opt-outs forced them to use a makeshift group in the most important game of the season. And when their collection of backups and off-the-scrap-heap fill-ins were dominated by the Buccaneers in the Super Bowl, General Manager Brett Veach wasted no time rebuilding from the ground up.
This is what GM Veach did in a few short months..
Left Tackle- replaced expensive All-Pro Eric Fisher who's injury in the AFC Championship game was really the Chiefs ultimate undoing in the Super Bowl. They gave up a 1st round 2021 pick and swapped a bunch of other picks and landed Orlando Brown Jr, a Pro Bowl OT himself with the Ravens.
Left Guard- down goes Nick Alligretti to bench and he is upgraded with a very solid free agent guard Joe Thuney signed this offseason.
Center- KC lets a fairly average Austin Reiter go this offseason and are inserting promising rookie Creed Humphrey from Oklahoma who they drafted at bottom of Rd 2 this year. Kansas City also signed a capable veteran Center/Guard Austin Blythe in free agency but Humphrey beat him out this summer for the starting gig.
Right Guard- down goes Andrew Wylie to bench and insert drafted rookie Trey Smith from Tennessee in 6th round this year who looks to have won the starting job after his first summer with the team.
Right Tackle- released long-time perennial All-Pro Mitchell Shwartz who was hurt for most of last season and now will insert Lucas Niang who they drafted in 3rd round in 2020. Niang was drafted at nearly same point that the Giants picked their hopeful future Right Tackle Matt Peart, although Niang opted out his rookie year altogether as part of a Covid decision.
So the Chiefs are going to war in 2021 with 5 new starters, including 2 rookies and another player who is also basically a rookie for all practical purposes in Niang. From some of the articles I read, it appears the new look KC Offensive Line was doing pretty well in preseason game snaps and Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes were impressed with the play of all the new faces, how cohesive the overall unit has been during the summer, and that they also may have improved their depth thru a well planned-out competitive process as well.
So what do you think of what GM Veach and the Chiefs have done here on the OL, in just one offseason? Clearly they see that they are in a Super Bowl window period and want to take advantage of it. But on the other hand, some of these moves are with pretty inexpensive young drafted guys to go along with a more expensive trade and free agent signings. Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.
As we all know first hand, rebuilding an entire Offensive Line takes a great deal of time and patience...or does it?
Plus they gave up a 1st rounder for their 5th OL. So they did use a lot of capital on their left side and from C-RT is a huge unknown. Its very risky but could pay huge dividens. Teams will catch onto their 3 unknown players weaknesses really quick. This a big boom or bust situation.
before anointing KC, they are starting basically 3 rookies so I would expect some growing pains but the trade for Brown and Thuney signing were very good moves. Both will end up being very expensive (both cost more than Solder did for comparison) but I think both have more good football left too.
all that said their defense just keeps getting weaker. every big resource commitment comes with an opportunity cost. I'd have chosen to prioritize protecting Mahomes after what happened last year also but if the rookies on the OL struggle or either big ticket player doesn't have a good year, they could easily wonder whether the picks/$ spent would have been better used adding some talent to a defense that is basically just Chris Jones and Honey badger.
This. Chiefs have their franchise QB and made the SB the past two years. Their major issue was their OL. They aren't about to trade a high 1st round pick for a disgruntled OT. As for some of the other moves, the Chiefs used their 1, 2 and 6 on OL, and a 3 last year. Is that really much different than the Giants using a 1, 3, and 5 on OL last year? Whether they are the right players is TBD
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You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.
This. Chiefs have their franchise QB and made the SB the past two years. Their major issue was their OL. They aren't about to trade a high 1st round pick for a disgruntled OT. As for some of the other moves, the Chiefs used their 1, 2 and 6 on OL, and a 3 last year. Is that really much different than the Giants using a 1, 3, and 5 on OL last year? Whether they are the right players is TBD
Should read the Giants aren't about to trade their high 1st
Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.
Fairly impressive, and would suggest Chiefs and their coaches seem to know a little about good offensive line play...
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You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.
Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.
It's not that simple. Look at the separation stats on the Giants WR the past two years. They needed huge upgrades at that position as well. Golladay (and Collin Johnson) are two bigger WRs who can use their size. Toney is an a good route runner that can get open in the short game.
I am offering the theory that having huge weapons like Mahommes, Hill, Kelce, and Helaire, make such an impact on the defense that the OL isn't getting the full thrust of the attack. They need to cover the receivers, keep Mahommes in the pocket, and contain Helaire. All this means a controlled rush, reacting to the offense, rather than just trying to blow up the ol. With the Giants we had no receiver worth a dam, so the defense would just pin its ears back and run-blitz to stop Barkley. When Barkley went down it was ever worse. I think we saw a difference once Jones started to run a little, it loosened up the defense.
Solving one problem (the biggest) is always better than trying to solve all at the same time. Solving all your problems and not focusing on the most important is how you build a mediocre team.
With the exception of the Belichick outlier, teams that draft poorly over a 2/3 or more year period become awful teams for at least that long. Hello NY Giants. #2, #6, #4 and not much to show for it and the rest of the drafts haven't produced a single for bowl level player.
When you have weapons all over the field (Mahomes, CEH, Kelce, Hill, Hardman, Watkins (until this year) and with those weapons SPEED galore, you present problems for opposing teams in such a way that they (the defense) cannot just try and flat out exploit the OL.
The Giants of 2020, once Barkley went down had the exact opposite as we had NO real threats and a GLARING lack of speed on the field at our skill positions. Teams were able to load up and come after our run game and our young QB.
It is also hard to compliment the Chiefs who seem to haev lucked out on Trey Smith as all 31 other teams let him slide through 5 rounds (which include some comp picks) and some teams that let him go through round 6 as well.
I am not ready to call anyone a winner yet based on 3 Pre-Season games where most teams were not playing their starters period!
Agree. If I had only included something like this in my OP...
:-)
With that said, the Chiefs are in another stratosphere.
The “deficiencies” of that offense (specifically line) are disguised by their all-world QB, future hall of fame coach, and spectacular TE and WR.
With that said, the Chiefs are in another stratosphere.
The “deficiencies” of that offense (specifically line) are disguised by their all-world QB, future hall of fame coach, and spectacular TE and WR.
And to sweeten the pot, they added 2 All Pro alternate-type lineman.
I think Cleveland's front 7 is going to have a nice game
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We just say they did a great job?
Agree. If I had only included something like this in my OP...
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Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.
:-)
It wasn't directed at you.
Care to share some of tomorrow's lotto numbers while you're at it?
It was all so easy, just draft a second rounder and 6th rounder and plug em in. Every team should be so lucky. And they don't even have to play a game.
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In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:
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You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.
Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.
It's not that simple. Look at the separation stats on the Giants WR the past two years. They needed huge upgrades at that position as well. Golladay (and Collin Johnson) are two bigger WRs who can use their size. Toney is an a good route runner that can get open in the short game.
All of this stuff doesn’t mean diddly squat if you don’t have a O line to block, and the Giants don’t have a O line to block. The Giants have drafted. RB at 2, and a QB at 6, and how has that made the team better? It hasn’t, and it won’t until the O line is fixed.
I guess that can't happen.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
The Giants have better lineman than Brown and Thuney?
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In comment 15355940 robbieballs2003 said:
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We just say they did a great job?
Agree. If I had only included something like this in my OP...
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Nice mix of deals really, but whether they are actually successful in what was executed here will be on display this season.
:-)
It wasn't directed at you.
I figured as much. Mine was only amplifying the same pt...
Care to share some of tomorrow's lotto numbers while you're at it?
It was all so easy, just draft a second rounder and 6th rounder and plug em in. Every team should be so lucky. And they don't even have to play a game.
such as, for this guy...
No offense to Gary Brightwell and Rodarius Williams, but with Smith starting in KC, one does wonder whether he was on the Giants’ board.
No offense to Gary Brightwell and Rodarius Williams, but with Smith starting in KC, one does wonder whether he was on the Giants’ board.
Smith got some traction around here as a target pre-draft and during the draft. If he works out for KC, it's a real coup...
As a 6th round pick, he should have been worth the stretch for any team.
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is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
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In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:
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is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
If they are doing well, its because of their stud playmakers making their jobs easier. Mahommes moves around and has a great arm, the receivers are open all over the place, and they have a top RB pick (like we do).
i hate when we pass on guys for no reason just to pack up CB, WR, or DE. who gives a fuck about our 6th CB when our 1st OG can't block worth a damn?
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is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
It’s thinking like this is why the Giants have been a losing team year after year for the last ten years. Scheme, or playmakers is not the reason, but lack of talent on the O line is, and all the coaching in the world won’t fix like so many dreamers seem to think.
He's flushed from the pocket quite often and making either sidearm throws or off balance throws while being pursued.
The SuperBowl was an anomaly but I've watched a lot of their games and he's constantly being flushed.
From a pure pass blocking perspective, I think the Chiefs OL is a bit overrated simply because Mahomes is so calm and elusive in outside the pocket.
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In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:
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is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
Enough with the silly annointing them great comments...no one is suggesting it from what I have read.
But more than happy to have a side bet on who has the more stable offensive line this year, NY or KC. Let me know if you want any of that action.
I know we all would love for the Giant OL (and team for that matter) to be better this season. But why is it so hard to take a look at what some other GMs/teams do in addressing their own problems without being defensive about it?
But, KC really doesn't have any options.
Brown will demand Huge money next year. Chiefs may or may not be able to afford it. They certainly can't afford other good vets if they sign Brown to a huge deal.
He's flushed from the pocket quite often and making either sidearm throws or off balance throws while being pursued.
The SuperBowl was an anomaly but I've watched a lot of their games and he's constantly being flushed.
You are right in all you say, but like I keep saying the Giants don’t have a Mahomes, or the speed, and weapons he has at his disposal, which is all the more reason the Giants need a better O line, and if not the losing seasons will extend to 5 in a row.
From a pure pass blocking perspective, I think the Chiefs OL is a bit overrated simply because Mahomes is so calm and elusive in outside the pocket.
They have two very high pedigree players in Thuney and Brown. The three young players in the lineup beat out legitimate NFL players in Remmers, Blythe, and Tardif.
Comparisons between the Giants and Chiefs are pretty silly. They have better top line talent and depth.
The only players on the Giants who would make the Chiefs roster are Thomas and Gates.
Fairly impressive, and would suggest Chiefs and their coaches seem to know a little about good offensive line play...
One thing you can say about Andy Reid, he knows OL. But we don't know yet clearly. Those 3 rookies should be certainly be interesting. Their problem was OL depth to my mind. Their starting guys for much of last year were good enough to win. It's when they went down that was the issue.
I would certainly trust Reid's opinion on OL over anyone on the Giants at this point... but I can say with some hope/optimism is I like the fact that we were really addressing depth on those last 2 moves on Price and Bredeson. That signifies that Judge and co. really are ready to go to battle with who they had slated to start, they saw they needed much better depth and they addressed it. Judge said as much that the best time to upgrade depth is when it comes time for the cutdowns to 53.
I am confused Bill. Didn't the Giants begin the offseason process with all of the expected 5 OL starters already on the team and under contract?
They made a lot of changes affecting backups/depth but since they really didn't address the OL in early free agency or draft, they assumed they had the solutions in place. If they really needed to fix the starting OL in their eyes, then they forgot...
It isn't an either/or necessarily. There are multiple factors that go into building a successful unit, not excluding good fortune.
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In comment 15355919 UberAlias said:
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You can focus on that. Overall talent level between NYG and KC is not remotely comparable. Oline is our biggest problem, but in too many fans eyes, its the only problem. I fully expect a major push for Oline next offseason provided DJ proves to be the answer.
Overall talent is not comparable, which is all the more reason that you need to fix the O line first. KG is just window dressing.
It's not that simple. Look at the separation stats on the Giants WR the past two years. They needed huge upgrades at that position as well. Golladay (and Collin Johnson) are two bigger WRs who can use their size. Toney is an a good route runner that can get open in the short game.
Good points, and also prompts a question: were the WR stats due to Garrett's route trees and play designs or the talent? Will they stretch the field with the new toys, or will it be 4 guys running the same old 5-7 yd routes in traffic?? I'm really interested to see how the offense evolves.
All those areas needed upgrades, but NONE were more Important than the O line that they DID NOT upgrade, so that’s why they are getting all the bad things said, and deservedly so.
One thing that remains to be seen is with all the attention paid to the OL will they have a big deficiency elsewhere? Let's see how the defense is.
I would certainly trust Reid's opinion on OL over anyone on the Giants at this point... but I can say with some hope/optimism is I like the fact that we were really addressing depth on those last 2 moves on Price and Bredeson. That signifies that Judge and co. really are ready to go to battle with who they had slated to start, they saw they needed much better depth and they addressed it. Judge said as much that the best time to upgrade depth is when it comes time for the cutdowns to 53. [/quote]
Looks like the KC approach to improve their depth was quite a bit different.
They targeted a few All Pro/Pro Bowl players as immediate replacements, and then trusted their draft process to find talent that just beat out other veteran starters for their respective jobs this summer. Now they have a fairly reliable bench to boot...
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In comment 15355996 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15355942 PatersonPlank said:
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is any better than ours. We have players just as good, or better. I'm thinking its either scheme and/or playmakers.
Who do we have better than Orlando Brown and Joe Thuney?
As a complete 5 man line, yes I do think its comparable. The KC right side is a 6th rounder, a guy drafted with Peart, and Humphrey a 2nd rd pick. Not one player on the right side has ever played in an NFL regular season game. So yes I think we are at least comparable. We have a #1, a #2, a #3 (who looks to have been beaten out), and a few highly drafted vets like Bredeson and Price (4th and a 1st respectively).
Don't just focus on 2 players out of the 5 and anoint them great, its a 5 (or 6) man effort, and 3/5 of that effort is highly suspect.
Enough with the silly annointing them great comments...no one is suggesting it from what I have read.
But more than happy to have a side bet on who has the more stable offensive line this year, NY or KC. Let me know if you want any of that action.
I know we all would love for the Giant OL (and team for that matter) to be better this season. But why is it so hard to take a look at what some other GMs/teams do in addressing their own problems without being defensive about it?
That isn't where I was going. I was answering the question from someone else. My point pertaining to your initial post is that I don't think that KC has done much different from us on the OL. I think they look better because of the great playmakers taking the pressure off them. Whether its Mahommes buying a lot of time scrambling, Kelce or Hill creating huge amounts of separation, or Mahommes unbelievable arm, all of these mean the OL has to hold their blocks a lot less, and means that the defenses are structuring to stop Mahommes/Kelce/Hill/Helaire rather than having no fear, putting their ears back, and just attacking.
I actually don't think either OL is all that good, but KC's doesn't need to be.