I also want to see improved pocket presence and movement. Forget TDs or YPA, if Jones displays the pocket movement he showed in 2020, he simply can’t start in the league.
While I get the YPA target, and it's relevant, we just need more points. A lot more points. And that has to be largely derivative of TD passes from Jones. It's his job, really.
You read some of this and you really get the idea that some fans want Jones to fail just to say they told you so
Failing this season would be a better outcome than mediocrity that stirs false hope from ownership. That's the worst case scenario.
I’ll raise you. The worst scenario is if Jones gets seriously injured in week 4 and isn’t healthy the rest of the season after several blah games in September. Then Mara gives the entire team an incomplete and a do-over in 2022.
There are 3 or 4 BBI "experts" who "know how to measure QB success" better than several professionals including Coach Judge, who is on record recognizing the long list of developmental obstacles ("excuses" to the BBI "experts") for Jones' in his 2nd season. Coach Judge is also on record saying that Jones needed more coaching and better weapons (bunch of BS to the BBI "experts").
It should also be obvious that Judge could've easily done something to "upgrade" QB in the offseason, if he really didn't believe in Jones (Fields and the NE Jones were right there in the draft and there were vet QBs available either via FA or trade). Instead he brought in Mike Glennon.... Other professionals who disagree with the 3 or 4 BBI "experts" include HOF talent evaluator, Gil Brandt.
Wellington Mara once had a pretty good quote on how it's nice to "see arrogance humbled". I really look forward to that.
For someone who says he tries to be nice to everyone
It's time for Jones to get this engine fired up, and for the other young players to also take a step forward.
I found his logic to be really poor - essentially said that he put up 24 TDs in his rookie year in 12 games so he should put up more now. Sort of odd.
He downplays last year's efforts. I feel like a lot of proponents of Jones' ignore that all of Jones' statistical peers in terms of touchdown production were replaced as starters. It was an incredibly poor season.
I was hoping Raanan saw something in practice, had intel from the coaches, to give him that conviction. It didn't seem like that was the reason for his confidence.
The most interesting part was that he thinks Toney looks great in practice while Golladay looks really poor.
Thanks, I've not had the free time to listen to many podcasts. After awhile, a lot of the perspectives and opinions sounds like football cliche and rhetoric to me anyway. Run the football, stop the run, win the turnover battle, don't beat yourself. blah blah blah. Need to see the performance factor on the field!
It's time for Jones to get this engine fired up, and for the other young players to also take a step forward.
I found his logic to be really poor - essentially said that he put up 24 TDs in his rookie year in 12 games so he should put up more now. Sort of odd.
He downplays last year's efforts. I feel like a lot of proponents of Jones' ignore that all of Jones' statistical peers in terms of touchdown production were replaced as starters. It was an incredibly poor season.
I was hoping Raanan saw something in practice, had intel from the coaches, to give him that conviction. It didn't seem like that was the reason for his confidence.
The most interesting part was that he thinks Toney looks great in practice while Golladay looks really poor.
Doesn't having the 31st ranked offensive line also hurt?
Doesn't having backup rb's for the whole season also hurt?
Doesn't having a completely awful wide receiving crew also hurt?
Why are you ignoring these factors? You mean having a miserable OL, a miserable RB crew and a miserable WR crew doesn't matter?
It's time for Jones to get this engine fired up, and for the other young players to also take a step forward.
I found his logic to be really poor - essentially said that he put up 24 TDs in his rookie year in 12 games so he should put up more now. Sort of odd.
He downplays last year's efforts. I feel like a lot of proponents of Jones' ignore that all of Jones' statistical peers in terms of touchdown production were replaced as starters. It was an incredibly poor season.
I was hoping Raanan saw something in practice, had intel from the coaches, to give him that conviction. It didn't seem like that was the reason for his confidence.
The most interesting part was that he thinks Toney looks great in practice while Golladay looks really poor.
Doesn't having the 31st ranked offensive line also hurt?
Doesn't having backup rb's for the whole season also hurt?
Doesn't having a completely awful wide receiving crew also hurt?
Why are you ignoring these factors? You mean having a miserable OL, a miserable RB crew and a miserable WR crew doesn't matter?
I am not ignoring those factors, I just don't feel the need to post them every time I discuss Jones.
I also think analyzing Jones in isolation shows he had a poor season. I fully expect Jones to improve this year and post better numbers.
and given sentiment- he is buying low as expectations are quite poor, the preseason looked sh$t, and last season was dog squeeze.
I am a buyer of Jones vs. expectations right now but unfortunately its contingent on a bunch of things.
1) the coordinator, will he use Jones as a run threat
2) if barkley isnt healthy the backfield is tragic
I am not going to bet on the OL because that is all hope (And i hope they do better)--- but if they have more skill players, and call good plays, and Jones is a threat to run... then they can do a decent job of helping the OL out while they gel and improve.
it is hard however to have faith in the things Jones will need. anyway I'm all in as well fk it cause if he sucks hes gone anyway. buy the option in decays over the next 5 months.
You read some of this and you really get the idea that some fans want Jones to fail just to say they told you so
I think the better read is some here know how to measure QB success. And therefore Jones has a long, long way to go...
lol. Ah yes, you are all supreme QB experts. Your opinion carries much weight, really Much more so than the other 100,000 guys posting opinions on this site.
There are 3 or 4 BBI "experts" who "know how to measure QB success" better than several professionals including Coach Judge, who is on record recognizing the long list of developmental obstacles ("excuses" to the BBI "experts") for Jones' in his 2nd season. Coach Judge is also on record saying that Jones needed more coaching and better weapons (bunch of BS to the BBI "experts").
It should also be obvious that Judge could've easily done something to "upgrade" QB in the offseason, if he really didn't believe in Jones (Fields and the NE Jones were right there in the draft and there were vet QBs available either via FA or trade). Instead he brought in Mike Glennon.... Other professionals who disagree with the 3 or 4 BBI "experts" include HOF talent evaluator, Gil Brandt.
Wellington Mara once had a pretty good quote on how it's nice to "see arrogance humbled". I really look forward to that.
You haven't learned a thing. Every year posters such as yourself say the same thing. We could replay the statement you just made by you or if not you others with McAdoo and Shurmur.
But I do agree with you though about arrogance. It sure was nice to hear from the arrogant "Peacock Resume Dave Gettleman" get humbled and admit is moronic attempts ot rebuild WHILE trying to win.
I think we're set up nicely though for 2022. It's about time -- hopefully.
There are 3 or 4 BBI "experts" who "know how to measure QB success" better than several professionals including Coach Judge, who is on record recognizing the long list of developmental obstacles ("excuses" to the BBI "experts") for Jones' in his 2nd season. Coach Judge is also on record saying that Jones needed more coaching and better weapons (bunch of BS to the BBI "experts").
It should also be obvious that Judge could've easily done something to "upgrade" QB in the offseason, if he really didn't believe in Jones (Fields and the NE Jones were right there in the draft and there were vet QBs available either via FA or trade). Instead he brought in Mike Glennon.... Other professionals who disagree with the 3 or 4 BBI "experts" include HOF talent evaluator, Gil Brandt.
Judge can say whatever he likes, but if you really think Coach Judge gets to decide whether or not the Giants drafted Fields and cut bait on Daniel Jones, I have a bridge to sell you. That is 100% a combined decision between Judge, Mara, and Gettleman.
I would venture to say there was no chance two of those three decision makers would vote not to give Daniel Jones a third year. No chance.
Wellington Mara once had a pretty good quote on how it's nice to "see arrogance humbled". I really look forward to that.
You haven't learned a thing. Every year posters such as yourself say the same thing. We could replay the statement you just made by you or if not you others with McAdoo and Shurmur.
But I do agree with you though about arrogance. It sure was nice to hear from the arrogant "Peacock Resume Dave Gettleman" get humbled and admit is moronic attempts ot rebuild WHILE trying to win.
I think we're set up nicely though for 2022. It's about time -- hopefully.
Every year? Yeah there are a few posters that hype the team, Milton comes to mind. I don't know if you've noticed, but the sentiment on this board has completely changed on this team. It used to be cautious optimism and hoping for the best. Most people this year have completely bought into the team and think it has a winning season this year. Anyone can point to past results and say prove it to me, that shit is unbelievable easy. Prognostication takes a little bit more than that.
I follow the gambling markets and public sentiment on the Giants is down, but the guys behind the lines and the pros are a bit higher on the Giants than most. Just need to look at where they believe the Broncos line should be and where its currently at (and the Broncos are a team that they also have rated higher than public sentiment) Why is that? Well because the public is fickle and they only go on what happened milliseconds before. AT was fairly solid throught preseason until the Pats game, and now the fucking sky is falling.
and given sentiment- he is buying low as expectations are quite poor, the preseason looked sh$t, and last season was dog squeeze.
I am a buyer of Jones vs. expectations right now but unfortunately its contingent on a bunch of things.
1) the coordinator, will he use Jones as a run threat
2) if barkley isnt healthy the backfield is tragic
I am not going to bet on the OL because that is all hope (And i hope they do better)--- but if they have more skill players, and call good plays, and Jones is a threat to run... then they can do a decent job of helping the OL out while they gel and improve.
it is hard however to have faith in the things Jones will need. anyway I'm all in as well fk it cause if he sucks hes gone anyway. buy the option in decays over the next 5 months.
Doesn't having the 31st ranked offensive line also hurt?
Doesn't having backup rb's for the whole season also hurt?
Doesn't having a completely awful wide receiving crew also hurt?
Why are you ignoring these factors? You mean having a miserable OL, a miserable RB crew and a miserable WR crew doesn't matter?
I am not ignoring those factors, I just don't feel the need to post them every time I discuss Jones.
I also think analyzing Jones in isolation shows he had a poor season. I fully expect Jones to improve this year and post better numbers.
Yes he did. Bu he isn't Mahomes. So if his whole offensive teams suck he is going to suck.
It's just that I read some comments and listen to radio in which statements are made every now and then that if the team stinks this year then the Giants HAVE to find a new QB.
That isn't true. If the OL sucks - DJones can't overcome that. He's more like Tannehill. With an awful OL, awful RB's, and awful WR's like Jones had - Tannehill is going to suck.
Every year? Yeah there are a few posters that hype the team, Milton comes to mind. I don't know if you've noticed, but the sentiment on this board has completely changed on this team. It used to be cautious optimism and hoping for the best. Most people this year have completely bought into the team and think it has a winning season this year. Anyone can point to past results and say prove it to me, that shit is unbelievable easy. Prognostication takes a little bit more than that.
I follow the gambling markets and public sentiment on the Giants is down, but the guys behind the lines and the pros are a bit higher on the Giants than most. Just need to look at where they believe the Broncos line should be and where its currently at (and the Broncos are a team that they also have rated higher than public sentiment) Why is that? Well because the public is fickle and they only go on what happened milliseconds before. AT was fairly solid throught preseason until the Pats game, and now the fucking sky is falling.
Yes- every year.
You mean it hasn’t been from many “I’ll believe the GM (or coach) rather than you?” type of posts? Even though the negative posts come not only from BBI posters but other analysis (we can fight all day who is considered an “expert” but you get the point I think. It’s every year we get the sarcasm from posters like Dr D whether we should criticize the blundering made by the front office etc. So yeah there has been cautious optimism – and that cautious optimism is usually in the form of “Well the GM (or coach) knows better than you so stop being such a miserable bastard.”
With respect – look at one of your recent posts. You recently posted that some Giants fans on here would rather see the team lose so they could be right. I mean seriously—c’mon. You really think a life-long Giant fan is going to want to sit and watch their favorite team lose for 3+ hours so they can post how smart they are on BBI? That’s so far off-the-wall thinking. I just get the feeling some of you are actually serious with those comments. SO while you call things of the past “cautious optimism” I called “irrational homersim” that a fan wants to just close his eyes and think nothing but positive. For these type of fans I wonder if they think everyone deserves a trophy and everyone deserves a hug even when they lose.
And so what “the public” is fickle. I just find it odd you think it was the New England game. Before that they were projected a 7 win team. So now it’s 6.5 to 7 games. It’s more than just BBI posters. The past years the fickle public has been right too, and the cautious optimist has been wrong. To make up things like some of us Giants fans want the Giants to lose is quite a bit off-the-rails.
And as for Dr D’s post - yeah every year the cautious optimism tries to shout down what has been the negative pov by calling them miserable bastards etc or us fans want the Giants to lose etc, or as I implied on here "well that's the GM (or coach), and I'd rather believe them than YOU." Yet they somehow seem to not understand that the negative pov is coming from other sources not just BBI posters.
You mean it hasn’t been from many “I’ll believe the GM (or coach) rather than you?” type of posts? Even though the negative posts come not only from BBI posters but other analysis (we can fight all day who is considered an “expert” but you get the point I think. It’s every year we get the sarcasm from posters like Dr D whether we should criticize the blundering made by the front office etc. So yeah there has been cautious optimism – and that cautious optimism is usually in the form of “Well the GM (or coach) knows better than you so stop being such a miserable bastard.”
With respect – look at one of your recent posts. You recently posted that some Giants fans on here would rather see the team lose so they could be right. I mean seriously—c’mon. You really think a life-long Giant fan is going to want to sit and watch their favorite team lose for 3+ hours so they can post how smart they are on BBI? That’s so far off-the-wall thinking. I just get the feeling some of you are actually serious with those comments. SO while you call things of the past “cautious optimism” I called “irrational homersim” that a fan wants to just close his eyes and think nothing but positive. For these type of fans I wonder if they think everyone deserves a trophy and everyone deserves a hug even when they lose.
And so what “the public” is fickle. I just find it odd you think it was the New England game. Before that they were projected a 7 win team. So now it’s 6.5 to 7 games. It’s more than just BBI posters. The past years the fickle public has been right too, and the cautious optimist has been wrong. To make up things like some of us Giants fans want the Giants to lose is quite a bit off-the-rails.
And as for Dr D’s post - yeah every year the cautious optimism tries to shout down what has been the negative pov by calling them miserable bastards etc or us fans want the Giants to lose etc, or as I implied on here "well that's the GM (or coach), and I'd rather believe them than YOU." Yet they somehow seem to not understand that the negative pov is coming from other sources not just BBI posters.
Yeah I actually do believe that if they see the Giants hoist a Lombardi and they see DG it will take a hit of their enjoyment. The hatred of him runs that deep.
I can't speak for everyone, but in years that the cautious optimism was shouting down the negative takes certainly wasn't me. I know personally, I took more of a hopeful approach. Even going into last year, I saw what they were doing with DJ early, but around week 5 I started to want to see it materialize in his play. I thought it started in the second half of that Bucs game, the light went on for him. I get others don't see it, but they'll be coming around by the end of the year.
This year is different though, absolutely bullish on the team. We have a legitimate NFL coaching staff, the offensive skill players have been revamped (our biggest weakness last year regardless of all the incessent whining about the OL which by the end of the year wasn't good but wasn't what we've seen in the past) and our best player was hurt. Without him it was a total death knell to the season because of the lack of any high end skill position talent. Oh and we added a second corner so we can actually run the defense the way Graham wants. Point to past results all you want, but unless DJ gets hurt or there are multiple major significant injuries to some of our elite players (Bradberry, Saquon, LW) this is a winning team. If you can't get excited, than the recent results of the team have killed you inside.
Yeah I actually do believe that if they see the Giants hoist a Lombardi and they see DG it will take a hit of their enjoyment. The hatred of him runs that deep.
Coming from somebody who is in the upper tier of those that think DG's reign as GM has been awful, this viewpoint is simply ridiculous...
RE: For someone who says he tries to be nice to everyone
are just blindly optimistic every year, I admit I am generally an optimistic person, but that doesn't mean I think the Giants are going to win 10 games every year. There have been seasons lately that i wasn't very excited for bc I wasn't optimistic. This year is different.
I haven't been optimistic like this in years and I believe there's good logic behind the optimism. I think this could be an '84 or '05 type year (not SB, but big step in right direction). Keep in mind, almost no one predicts those type years, when a team makes a 4 or more win leap from 1 yr to the next. But they happen often, including to the Giants, usually with a good new or 2nd yr coach and a major infusion of talent. This is one of those years.
I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to explain. LFGG!
Yeah I actually do believe that if they see the Giants hoist a Lombardi and they see DG it will take a hit of their enjoyment. The hatred of him runs that deep.
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! MG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just wow. Some of you just live in such a fantasy world.
A poster here had a bit of an argument with me recently and made a comment about who takes the posts so serious. This post of yours steps right up the top of the ladder in terms of lunacy. Incredible.
RE: For Giantstock and others who think people like myself
are just blindly optimistic every year, I admit I am generally an optimistic person, but that doesn't mean I think the Giants are going to win 10 games every year. There have been seasons lately that i wasn't very excited for bc I wasn't optimistic. This year is different.
I haven't been optimistic like this in years and I believe there's good logic behind the optimism. I think this could be an '84 or '05 type year (not SB, but big step in right direction). Keep in mind, almost no one predicts those type years, when a team makes a 4 or more win leap from 1 yr to the next. But they happen often, including to the Giants, usually with a good new or 2nd yr coach and a major infusion of talent. This is one of those years.
I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to explain. LFGG!
The point I had with your post is the questioning of Judge (and indirectly DG) for not addressing the OL/QB. Anyone that is criticizing him-- you sarcastically replied referring to them as "experts."
That's my point this type of comment made over-and-over by those that for example have supported DG on here.
You're making sarcastic comments slamming those "experts" yet overall "teh experts" you are slamming have ben right for these least several years. It's the same tired song we've heard year over year - regardless. The defense of your argument is to slam other posters because they don't share your pov.
It just comes back to-- you and others just don't seem to want to hear anything bad about a team that has been miserable 7 of the past 8 years. Instead - you sarcastically call them "experts" that complain and when challenged some of you get personal (you haven't) which is mind-boggling to me considering how awful this team has been over the years. I thought NY fans were "tough." AND THE SARCASM IS FINE - NO PROBLEM! BUT WHEN IT'S THE SAME SARCASM YEAR OVER YEAR - IT GETS OLD. *** Haven't we heard for several years that DG and/or the prior coaches are the experts for those that have defended management? And yet we suck. That's the point.
the fact that we've sucked the last X number of years isn't relevant. Different coaching staff, different roster, different decision makers assembling the roster, etc. Going 5-3 the second half of '20, while it doesn't mean a lot, it is more relevant than what we did in '19 or any year before that. And we added a lot of talent to the team that finished 5-3.
The people who believe Jones deserves this year to prove himself aren't predicting anything. They're not definitively saying he's great or is going to be great. But those on the other side someone think they KNOW he SUCKS and is ALWAYS going to SUCK (bc they "know how to measure QB success" - that's a quote, I didn't make that up).
Same with the OL. Those who aren't panicking aren't saying definitively that they're going to be great. But it might be the youngest OL in the league and it showed signs of progress the second half of last year.
As Aikman said at the end of the last game of '20, (in a game with playoff implications at the time) dallas knew we wanted to run the ball to run out the clock and yet we were able to do just that (w/ Gallman who's barely hanging onto his career this yr). We haven't been able to do that in a long time. It's a positive sign.
And it's not accurate to say the team hasn't tried to address the OL. A first, third and 5th in '20, FAs and trades, but they need time to develop.
Giantstock, you go ahead and bet the under. Have fun.
the fact that we've sucked the last X number of years isn't relevant. Different coaching staff, different roster, different decision makers assembling the roster, etc. Going 5-3 the second half of '20, while it doesn't mean a lot, it is more relevant than what we did in '19 or any year before that. And we added a lot of talent to the team that finished 5-3.
The people who believe Jones deserves this year to prove himself aren't predicting anything. They're not definitively saying he's great or is going to be great. But those on the other side someone think they KNOW he SUCKS and is ALWAYS going to SUCK (bc they "know how to measure QB success" - that's a quote, I didn't make that up).
Same with the OL. Those who aren't panicking aren't saying definitively that they're going to be great. But it might be the youngest OL in the league and it showed signs of progress the second half of last year.
As Aikman said at the end of the last game of '20, (in a game with playoff implications at the time) dallas knew we wanted to run the ball to run out the clock and yet we were able to do just that (w/ Gallman who's barely hanging onto his career this yr). We haven't been able to do that in a long time. It's a positive sign.
And it's not accurate to say the team hasn't tried to address the OL. A first, third and 5th in '20, FAs and trades, but they need time to develop.
Giantstock, you go ahead and bet the under. Have fun.
It is relevant because the problems run deeper than coaching staff and the roster. The people may be different but the philosophical is the same and that's what has dragged this team down.
That's why JJ is such a breath of fresh air, but I'll be optimistic when we get breaths of fresh air at some FO positions too.
Quote:
In comment 15357395 christian said:
Quote:
27 TDs in a 17 game season is roughly 25 in a 16 game season. That’s right in the middle of the pack.
If he has 8 Ints then that's a pretty good season.
He has 14 and it's not.
Raanan also says he thinks Jones will be in the 'Eli caliber's of QBs but not top ten. I think he's really underrating Eli.
Raanan hated Coughlin and Eli. I think that was pretty much understood.
I don't pay that much attention to the beat writers, so that's sort of news to me. Thanks.
Quote:
In comment 15357402 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 15357395 christian said:
Quote:
27 TDs in a 17 game season is roughly 25 in a 16 game season. That’s right in the middle of the pack.
If he has 8 Ints then that's a pretty good season.
He has 14 and it's not.
Raanan also says he thinks Jones will be in the 'Eli caliber's of QBs but not top ten. I think he's really underrating Eli.
Raanan hated Coughlin and Eli. I think that was pretty much understood.
I don't pay that much attention to the beat writers, so that's sort of news to me. Thanks.
News to all of us, I believe.
While I get the YPA target, and it's relevant, we just need more points. A lot more points. And that has to be largely derivative of TD passes from Jones. It's his job, really.
That's a different metric - right. But 7.5 feels low. I think closer to 8...??
Jones was 30th at 6.1.
Low bar here. For comparisons sake Rodgers led the league at 9.6.
I think the better read is some here know how to measure QB success. And therefore Jones has a long, long way to go...
Failing this season would be a better outcome than mediocrity that stirs false hope from ownership. That's the worst case scenario.
Eli Faces?...
Quote:
That's the number you want to see at 7.5.
That's a different metric - right. But 7.5 feels low. I think closer to 8...??
7.5 YPA doesn’t make Jones an All Pro but it’s a decent level for a starting QB. It’s also a level he has never reached at Duke or in the NFL.
Competence as a first step.
Quote:
You read some of this and you really get the idea that some fans want Jones to fail just to say they told you so
Failing this season would be a better outcome than mediocrity that stirs false hope from ownership. That's the worst case scenario.
I’ll raise you. The worst scenario is if Jones gets seriously injured in week 4 and isn’t healthy the rest of the season after several blah games in September. Then Mara gives the entire team an incomplete and a do-over in 2022.
This year more than likely Jones should get a pass. Until the OL is fixed - unless your Mahomes- you are gonna struggle.
Quote:
...at anything other than sacks, turnovers, penalties and Eli faces, I'll take that.
Eli Faces?...
Oh yeah... well known. Here is Eli passing the torch...
It should also be obvious that Judge could've easily done something to "upgrade" QB in the offseason, if he really didn't believe in Jones (Fields and the NE Jones were right there in the draft and there were vet QBs available either via FA or trade). Instead he brought in Mike Glennon.... Other professionals who disagree with the 3 or 4 BBI "experts" include HOF talent evaluator, Gil Brandt.
Wellington Mara once had a pretty good quote on how it's nice to "see arrogance humbled". I really look forward to that.
It's time for Jones to get this engine fired up, and for the other young players to also take a step forward.
It's time for Jones to get this engine fired up, and for the other young players to also take a step forward.
Raanan has been trying to play 'good cop' with his NYG articles/podcasts since free agency started. Might be looking to keep the peace...
It's time for Jones to get this engine fired up, and for the other young players to also take a step forward.
I found his logic to be really poor - essentially said that he put up 24 TDs in his rookie year in 12 games so he should put up more now. Sort of odd.
He downplays last year's efforts. I feel like a lot of proponents of Jones' ignore that all of Jones' statistical peers in terms of touchdown production were replaced as starters. It was an incredibly poor season.
I was hoping Raanan saw something in practice, had intel from the coaches, to give him that conviction. It didn't seem like that was the reason for his confidence.
The most interesting part was that he thinks Toney looks great in practice while Golladay looks really poor.
There's so much fluff. I listened for about 15 minutes to get what I thought was 30 seconds of meat.
Quote:
wonder what's behind it ...
It's time for Jones to get this engine fired up, and for the other young players to also take a step forward.
I found his logic to be really poor - essentially said that he put up 24 TDs in his rookie year in 12 games so he should put up more now. Sort of odd.
He downplays last year's efforts. I feel like a lot of proponents of Jones' ignore that all of Jones' statistical peers in terms of touchdown production were replaced as starters. It was an incredibly poor season.
I was hoping Raanan saw something in practice, had intel from the coaches, to give him that conviction. It didn't seem like that was the reason for his confidence.
The most interesting part was that he thinks Toney looks great in practice while Golladay looks really poor.
Doesn't having the 31st ranked offensive line also hurt?
Doesn't having backup rb's for the whole season also hurt?
Doesn't having a completely awful wide receiving crew also hurt?
Why are you ignoring these factors? You mean having a miserable OL, a miserable RB crew and a miserable WR crew doesn't matter?
There's so much fluff. I listened for about 15 minutes to get what I thought was 30 seconds of meat.
Quote:
In comment 15358172 JonC said:
Quote:
wonder what's behind it ...
It's time for Jones to get this engine fired up, and for the other young players to also take a step forward.
I found his logic to be really poor - essentially said that he put up 24 TDs in his rookie year in 12 games so he should put up more now. Sort of odd.
He downplays last year's efforts. I feel like a lot of proponents of Jones' ignore that all of Jones' statistical peers in terms of touchdown production were replaced as starters. It was an incredibly poor season.
I was hoping Raanan saw something in practice, had intel from the coaches, to give him that conviction. It didn't seem like that was the reason for his confidence.
The most interesting part was that he thinks Toney looks great in practice while Golladay looks really poor.
Doesn't having the 31st ranked offensive line also hurt?
Doesn't having backup rb's for the whole season also hurt?
Doesn't having a completely awful wide receiving crew also hurt?
Why are you ignoring these factors? You mean having a miserable OL, a miserable RB crew and a miserable WR crew doesn't matter?
I am not ignoring those factors, I just don't feel the need to post them every time I discuss Jones.
I also think analyzing Jones in isolation shows he had a poor season. I fully expect Jones to improve this year and post better numbers.
Quote:
Ha, understood - I seldom listen but I'm staved for football content - and more starved for reasons for optimism about Jones and the team.
There's so much fluff. I listened for about 15 minutes to get what I thought was 30 seconds of meat.
I find podcasts to be incredibly inefficient ways of learning.
Completely agree. I don't have the patience for it, either.
I am a buyer of Jones vs. expectations right now but unfortunately its contingent on a bunch of things.
1) the coordinator, will he use Jones as a run threat
2) if barkley isnt healthy the backfield is tragic
I am not going to bet on the OL because that is all hope (And i hope they do better)--- but if they have more skill players, and call good plays, and Jones is a threat to run... then they can do a decent job of helping the OL out while they gel and improve.
it is hard however to have faith in the things Jones will need. anyway I'm all in as well fk it cause if he sucks hes gone anyway. buy the option in decays over the next 5 months.
Quote:
You read some of this and you really get the idea that some fans want Jones to fail just to say they told you so
I think the better read is some here know how to measure QB success. And therefore Jones has a long, long way to go...
lol. Ah yes, you are all supreme QB experts. Your opinion carries much weight, really Much more so than the other 100,000 guys posting opinions on this site.
It should also be obvious that Judge could've easily done something to "upgrade" QB in the offseason, if he really didn't believe in Jones (Fields and the NE Jones were right there in the draft and there were vet QBs available either via FA or trade). Instead he brought in Mike Glennon.... Other professionals who disagree with the 3 or 4 BBI "experts" include HOF talent evaluator, Gil Brandt.
Wellington Mara once had a pretty good quote on how it's nice to "see arrogance humbled". I really look forward to that.
You haven't learned a thing. Every year posters such as yourself say the same thing. We could replay the statement you just made by you or if not you others with McAdoo and Shurmur.
But I do agree with you though about arrogance. It sure was nice to hear from the arrogant "Peacock Resume Dave Gettleman" get humbled and admit is moronic attempts ot rebuild WHILE trying to win.
I think we're set up nicely though for 2022. It's about time -- hopefully.
It should also be obvious that Judge could've easily done something to "upgrade" QB in the offseason, if he really didn't believe in Jones (Fields and the NE Jones were right there in the draft and there were vet QBs available either via FA or trade). Instead he brought in Mike Glennon.... Other professionals who disagree with the 3 or 4 BBI "experts" include HOF talent evaluator, Gil Brandt.
Judge can say whatever he likes, but if you really think Coach Judge gets to decide whether or not the Giants drafted Fields and cut bait on Daniel Jones, I have a bridge to sell you. That is 100% a combined decision between Judge, Mara, and Gettleman.
I would venture to say there was no chance two of those three decision makers would vote not to give Daniel Jones a third year. No chance.
Quote:
Wellington Mara once had a pretty good quote on how it's nice to "see arrogance humbled". I really look forward to that.
You haven't learned a thing. Every year posters such as yourself say the same thing. We could replay the statement you just made by you or if not you others with McAdoo and Shurmur.
But I do agree with you though about arrogance. It sure was nice to hear from the arrogant "Peacock Resume Dave Gettleman" get humbled and admit is moronic attempts ot rebuild WHILE trying to win.
I think we're set up nicely though for 2022. It's about time -- hopefully.
Every year? Yeah there are a few posters that hype the team, Milton comes to mind. I don't know if you've noticed, but the sentiment on this board has completely changed on this team. It used to be cautious optimism and hoping for the best. Most people this year have completely bought into the team and think it has a winning season this year. Anyone can point to past results and say prove it to me, that shit is unbelievable easy. Prognostication takes a little bit more than that.
I follow the gambling markets and public sentiment on the Giants is down, but the guys behind the lines and the pros are a bit higher on the Giants than most. Just need to look at where they believe the Broncos line should be and where its currently at (and the Broncos are a team that they also have rated higher than public sentiment) Why is that? Well because the public is fickle and they only go on what happened milliseconds before. AT was fairly solid throught preseason until the Pats game, and now the fucking sky is falling.
I am a buyer of Jones vs. expectations right now but unfortunately its contingent on a bunch of things.
1) the coordinator, will he use Jones as a run threat
2) if barkley isnt healthy the backfield is tragic
I am not going to bet on the OL because that is all hope (And i hope they do better)--- but if they have more skill players, and call good plays, and Jones is a threat to run... then they can do a decent job of helping the OL out while they gel and improve.
it is hard however to have faith in the things Jones will need. anyway I'm all in as well fk it cause if he sucks hes gone anyway. buy the option in decays over the next 5 months.
42!
Quote:
In comment 15358205 BrettNYG10 said:
Doesn't having the 31st ranked offensive line also hurt?
Doesn't having backup rb's for the whole season also hurt?
Doesn't having a completely awful wide receiving crew also hurt?
Why are you ignoring these factors? You mean having a miserable OL, a miserable RB crew and a miserable WR crew doesn't matter?
I am not ignoring those factors, I just don't feel the need to post them every time I discuss Jones.
I also think analyzing Jones in isolation shows he had a poor season. I fully expect Jones to improve this year and post better numbers.
Yes he did. Bu he isn't Mahomes. So if his whole offensive teams suck he is going to suck.
It's just that I read some comments and listen to radio in which statements are made every now and then that if the team stinks this year then the Giants HAVE to find a new QB.
That isn't true. If the OL sucks - DJones can't overcome that. He's more like Tannehill. With an awful OL, awful RB's, and awful WR's like Jones had - Tannehill is going to suck.
Quote:
In comment 15358162 Dr. D said:
Quote:
Every year? Yeah there are a few posters that hype the team, Milton comes to mind. I don't know if you've noticed, but the sentiment on this board has completely changed on this team. It used to be cautious optimism and hoping for the best. Most people this year have completely bought into the team and think it has a winning season this year. Anyone can point to past results and say prove it to me, that shit is unbelievable easy. Prognostication takes a little bit more than that.
I follow the gambling markets and public sentiment on the Giants is down, but the guys behind the lines and the pros are a bit higher on the Giants than most. Just need to look at where they believe the Broncos line should be and where its currently at (and the Broncos are a team that they also have rated higher than public sentiment) Why is that? Well because the public is fickle and they only go on what happened milliseconds before. AT was fairly solid throught preseason until the Pats game, and now the fucking sky is falling.
Yes- every year.
You mean it hasn’t been from many “I’ll believe the GM (or coach) rather than you?” type of posts? Even though the negative posts come not only from BBI posters but other analysis (we can fight all day who is considered an “expert” but you get the point I think. It’s every year we get the sarcasm from posters like Dr D whether we should criticize the blundering made by the front office etc. So yeah there has been cautious optimism – and that cautious optimism is usually in the form of “Well the GM (or coach) knows better than you so stop being such a miserable bastard.”
With respect – look at one of your recent posts. You recently posted that some Giants fans on here would rather see the team lose so they could be right. I mean seriously—c’mon. You really think a life-long Giant fan is going to want to sit and watch their favorite team lose for 3+ hours so they can post how smart they are on BBI? That’s so far off-the-wall thinking. I just get the feeling some of you are actually serious with those comments. SO while you call things of the past “cautious optimism” I called “irrational homersim” that a fan wants to just close his eyes and think nothing but positive. For these type of fans I wonder if they think everyone deserves a trophy and everyone deserves a hug even when they lose.
And so what “the public” is fickle. I just find it odd you think it was the New England game. Before that they were projected a 7 win team. So now it’s 6.5 to 7 games. It’s more than just BBI posters. The past years the fickle public has been right too, and the cautious optimist has been wrong. To make up things like some of us Giants fans want the Giants to lose is quite a bit off-the-rails.
And as for Dr D’s post - yeah every year the cautious optimism tries to shout down what has been the negative pov by calling them miserable bastards etc or us fans want the Giants to lose etc, or as I implied on here "well that's the GM (or coach), and I'd rather believe them than YOU." Yet they somehow seem to not understand that the negative pov is coming from other sources not just BBI posters.
When a group of principals keeps blowing it, healthy skepticism is warranted.
Yes- every year.
You mean it hasn’t been from many “I’ll believe the GM (or coach) rather than you?” type of posts? Even though the negative posts come not only from BBI posters but other analysis (we can fight all day who is considered an “expert” but you get the point I think. It’s every year we get the sarcasm from posters like Dr D whether we should criticize the blundering made by the front office etc. So yeah there has been cautious optimism – and that cautious optimism is usually in the form of “Well the GM (or coach) knows better than you so stop being such a miserable bastard.”
With respect – look at one of your recent posts. You recently posted that some Giants fans on here would rather see the team lose so they could be right. I mean seriously—c’mon. You really think a life-long Giant fan is going to want to sit and watch their favorite team lose for 3+ hours so they can post how smart they are on BBI? That’s so far off-the-wall thinking. I just get the feeling some of you are actually serious with those comments. SO while you call things of the past “cautious optimism” I called “irrational homersim” that a fan wants to just close his eyes and think nothing but positive. For these type of fans I wonder if they think everyone deserves a trophy and everyone deserves a hug even when they lose.
And so what “the public” is fickle. I just find it odd you think it was the New England game. Before that they were projected a 7 win team. So now it’s 6.5 to 7 games. It’s more than just BBI posters. The past years the fickle public has been right too, and the cautious optimist has been wrong. To make up things like some of us Giants fans want the Giants to lose is quite a bit off-the-rails.
And as for Dr D’s post - yeah every year the cautious optimism tries to shout down what has been the negative pov by calling them miserable bastards etc or us fans want the Giants to lose etc, or as I implied on here "well that's the GM (or coach), and I'd rather believe them than YOU." Yet they somehow seem to not understand that the negative pov is coming from other sources not just BBI posters.
Yeah I actually do believe that if they see the Giants hoist a Lombardi and they see DG it will take a hit of their enjoyment. The hatred of him runs that deep.
I can't speak for everyone, but in years that the cautious optimism was shouting down the negative takes certainly wasn't me. I know personally, I took more of a hopeful approach. Even going into last year, I saw what they were doing with DJ early, but around week 5 I started to want to see it materialize in his play. I thought it started in the second half of that Bucs game, the light went on for him. I get others don't see it, but they'll be coming around by the end of the year.
This year is different though, absolutely bullish on the team. We have a legitimate NFL coaching staff, the offensive skill players have been revamped (our biggest weakness last year regardless of all the incessent whining about the OL which by the end of the year wasn't good but wasn't what we've seen in the past) and our best player was hurt. Without him it was a total death knell to the season because of the lack of any high end skill position talent. Oh and we added a second corner so we can actually run the defense the way Graham wants. Point to past results all you want, but unless DJ gets hurt or there are multiple major significant injuries to some of our elite players (Bradberry, Saquon, LW) this is a winning team. If you can't get excited, than the recent results of the team have killed you inside.
Coming from somebody who is in the upper tier of those that think DG's reign as GM has been awful, this viewpoint is simply ridiculous...
I don't think I was mean. I just used someone's quote to support my observation, without naming any names.
I haven't been optimistic like this in years and I believe there's good logic behind the optimism. I think this could be an '84 or '05 type year (not SB, but big step in right direction). Keep in mind, almost no one predicts those type years, when a team makes a 4 or more win leap from 1 yr to the next. But they happen often, including to the Giants, usually with a good new or 2nd yr coach and a major infusion of talent. This is one of those years.
I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to explain. LFGG!
Quote:
In comment 15358645 Zeke's Alibi said:
Yeah I actually do believe that if they see the Giants hoist a Lombardi and they see DG it will take a hit of their enjoyment. The hatred of him runs that deep.
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! MG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just wow. Some of you just live in such a fantasy world.
A poster here had a bit of an argument with me recently and made a comment about who takes the posts so serious. This post of yours steps right up the top of the ladder in terms of lunacy. Incredible.
I haven't been optimistic like this in years and I believe there's good logic behind the optimism. I think this could be an '84 or '05 type year (not SB, but big step in right direction). Keep in mind, almost no one predicts those type years, when a team makes a 4 or more win leap from 1 yr to the next. But they happen often, including to the Giants, usually with a good new or 2nd yr coach and a major infusion of talent. This is one of those years.
I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to explain. LFGG!
The point I had with your post is the questioning of Judge (and indirectly DG) for not addressing the OL/QB. Anyone that is criticizing him-- you sarcastically replied referring to them as "experts."
That's my point this type of comment made over-and-over by those that for example have supported DG on here.
You're making sarcastic comments slamming those "experts" yet overall "teh experts" you are slamming have ben right for these least several years. It's the same tired song we've heard year over year - regardless. The defense of your argument is to slam other posters because they don't share your pov.
It just comes back to-- you and others just don't seem to want to hear anything bad about a team that has been miserable 7 of the past 8 years. Instead - you sarcastically call them "experts" that complain and when challenged some of you get personal (you haven't) which is mind-boggling to me considering how awful this team has been over the years. I thought NY fans were "tough." AND THE SARCASM IS FINE - NO PROBLEM! BUT WHEN IT'S THE SAME SARCASM YEAR OVER YEAR - IT GETS OLD. *** Haven't we heard for several years that DG and/or the prior coaches are the experts for those that have defended management? And yet we suck. That's the point.
The people who believe Jones deserves this year to prove himself aren't predicting anything. They're not definitively saying he's great or is going to be great. But those on the other side someone think they KNOW he SUCKS and is ALWAYS going to SUCK (bc they "know how to measure QB success" - that's a quote, I didn't make that up).
Same with the OL. Those who aren't panicking aren't saying definitively that they're going to be great. But it might be the youngest OL in the league and it showed signs of progress the second half of last year.
As Aikman said at the end of the last game of '20, (in a game with playoff implications at the time) dallas knew we wanted to run the ball to run out the clock and yet we were able to do just that (w/ Gallman who's barely hanging onto his career this yr). We haven't been able to do that in a long time. It's a positive sign.
And it's not accurate to say the team hasn't tried to address the OL. A first, third and 5th in '20, FAs and trades, but they need time to develop.
Giantstock, you go ahead and bet the under. Have fun.
The people who believe Jones deserves this year to prove himself aren't predicting anything. They're not definitively saying he's great or is going to be great. But those on the other side someone think they KNOW he SUCKS and is ALWAYS going to SUCK (bc they "know how to measure QB success" - that's a quote, I didn't make that up).
Same with the OL. Those who aren't panicking aren't saying definitively that they're going to be great. But it might be the youngest OL in the league and it showed signs of progress the second half of last year.
As Aikman said at the end of the last game of '20, (in a game with playoff implications at the time) dallas knew we wanted to run the ball to run out the clock and yet we were able to do just that (w/ Gallman who's barely hanging onto his career this yr). We haven't been able to do that in a long time. It's a positive sign.
And it's not accurate to say the team hasn't tried to address the OL. A first, third and 5th in '20, FAs and trades, but they need time to develop.
Giantstock, you go ahead and bet the under. Have fun.
It is relevant because the problems run deeper than coaching staff and the roster. The people may be different but the philosophical is the same and that's what has dragged this team down.
That's why JJ is such a breath of fresh air, but I'll be optimistic when we get breaths of fresh air at some FO positions too.