Just watching him last night, getting the better of Tyron Smith (in my opinion), for most of the night, it's depressing to watch this player who carried our defense to a championship a decade ago, continue to be one of the most disruptive defensive players in the game. No one figured he would ever play the way he has the past couple years again, so I'm not gonna kill Gettleman on this one, but with the return being Billy Price (after the Hill trade and Lauletta having been off the roster for years), it's just unfortunate to be on the absolute losing side of this trade.
That said, I'm happy for JPP. Guy's career should have been over on 7/4/15, and not only did he make it back into the NFL, he's got himself another ring and has a real shot at yet another.
Wherever people want to rank Dak and what they think of him is similar to when Romo was there. Dallas is going to be a major pain in the ass to deal with offensively and they are going score points
The Giants are not going to beat Dallas scoring 20-24 points.
As they showed last night though, it is difficult settling for FG's and winning
Yep.
That is what the season is all about for Giants. Can their offense put up enough points to win games...
Just watching him last night, getting the better of Tyron Smith (in my opinion), for most of the night, it's depressing to watch this player who carried our defense to a championship a decade ago, continue to be one of the most disruptive defensive players in the game. No one figured he would ever play the way he has the past couple years again, so I'm not gonna kill Gettleman on this one, but with the return being Billy Price (after the Hill trade and Lauletta having been off the roster for years), it's just unfortunate to be on the absolute losing side of this trade.
That said, I'm happy for JPP. Guy's career should have been over on 7/4/15, and not only did he make it back into the NFL, he's got himself another ring and has a real shot at yet another.
I’ll never understand that trade!
RE: Dak had a very good game last night. Stop looking for reasons
to discount his play because of a particular stat that you want to give somebody crap about, or because you are indirectly (indirectly) trying to defend Daniel Jones from his critics.
Watch the game with your eyes and assess Dak's play. He was tough, accurate, decisive, productive from start to finish and, most importantly, he put his team ahead with a minute to go in the game. If you look at him objectively, its near impossible to say he didn't play very good last night and is one of the top QBs in the league.
You would need to be chucklehead to suggest otherwise...
I agree 100% with this. I have always been someone to knock Dak, but every year it gets harder and harder to see him as anything other than a top 10 QB. Yes, you can say he's always had an elite OL, Zeke, weapons all over the field, but every successful QB has a system/personnel around them that fits with their skill set. Are we going to discount Jones this year if he has a 4,500 yard, 30 TD season because the Giants brought in Golladay, Rudolph, Toney, and get Barkley back? Absolutely not, we'll say he finally had the pieces around him to succeed (OL not withstanding).
Shock, +1000. I've largely been in Gettleman's camp and like the team he's built, but I just can't make sense of letting JPP go.
We'll hear everything from "he's in FLA" as to the reason he's playing well, to "he was a cancer" here.
The bottom line is he's a dominant football player, just like he was here. And it would be great if we still had him. Imagine having JPP next to Leonard Williams & Dexter Lawrence?
The ironic thing is, he's pretty much the missing piece to us having a great D now.
he was paid a lot and didn't produce much for the last few years. We were a bad team. Paying an aging vet a lot of money while you are rebuilding doesn't make sense.
He gets traded and then winds up with Tom Brady and the all star team on offense - is it any shock why he'd start to play better and harder?
In sum, the JPP you see wouldn't likely be the one we'd have for us. Maybe the Graham factor changes that but he wasn't here when JPP was traded.
RE: Dak had a very good game last night. Stop looking for reasons
to discount his play because of a particular stat that you want to give somebody crap about, or because you are indirectly (indirectly) trying to defend Daniel Jones from his critics.
Watch the game with your eyes and assess Dak's play. He was tough, accurate, decisive, productive from start to finish and, most importantly, he put his team ahead with a minute to go in the game. If you look at him objectively, its near impossible to say he didn't play very good last night and is one of the top QBs in the league.
You would need to be chucklehead to suggest otherwise...
Top QBs win big games. And if Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, etc... had the ball at the end of the game - their clock mangament wouldnt let Brady get the ball back. See Brady use the clock to his advantage last night? Lets not forget the awful sack Dak took at the end of the first half before a holding penalty to take the mout of field goal range. They had the chance to take the lead or be within a FG of the lead, and got the ball tostart the 2nd half - and he failed.
Dak was fine last night. He played well, and did what he had to do to win the game. But people thinking that was some kind of great or elite performance are just wanting to prop other players to push down the ones they root for.
RE: RE: Dak had a very good game last night. Stop looking for reasons
to discount his play because of a particular stat that you want to give somebody crap about, or because you are indirectly (indirectly) trying to defend Daniel Jones from his critics.
Watch the game with your eyes and assess Dak's play. He was tough, accurate, decisive, productive from start to finish and, most importantly, he put his team ahead with a minute to go in the game. If you look at him objectively, its near impossible to say he didn't play very good last night and is one of the top QBs in the league.
You would need to be chucklehead to suggest otherwise...
Top QBs win big games. And if Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, etc... had the ball at the end of the game - their clock mangament wouldnt let Brady get the ball back. See Brady use the clock to his advantage last night? Lets not forget the awful sack Dak took at the end of the first half before a holding penalty to take the mout of field goal range. They had the chance to take the lead or be within a FG of the lead, and got the ball tostart the 2nd half - and he failed.
Dak was fine last night. He played well, and did what he had to do to win the game. But people thinking that was some kind of great or elite performance are just wanting to prop other players to push down the ones they root for.
I said Dak was very good last night, not great or elite. And this isn't about Brady...I already know he's great.
he was paid a lot and didn't produce much for the last few years. We were a bad team. Paying an aging vet a lot of money while you are rebuilding doesn't make sense.
He gets traded and then winds up with Tom Brady and the all star team on offense - is it any shock why he'd start to play better and harder?
In sum, the JPP you see wouldn't likely be the one we'd have for us. Maybe the Graham factor changes that but he wasn't here when JPP was traded.
There are things I disagree with, and others I agree with here. 2015 was a lost year and just a miracle he even made it on the field for 8 games. 2016 he had 7 sacks through 12 games and was a big part of the Giants defense being one of the best in the league, then he followed it up with 8.5 sacks in 2017 on a terrible team that fell apart.
That said, I believe you are right in some of the intangible elements of his game and the dynamics within the team at that point in time. That's why I stated I don't really blame Gettleman for this one. It's just frustrating for me that the Giants had the patience with this player, gave him a second chance after his incident, and worked him back into being a solid player, to see him have a total rebirth on another team.
Despite his numbers, he is still not one of the top QBs in the game until he proves he can win big games year in and year out. He has the talent surrounding him and a shitty division to do so.
But letting JPP go isn't one. Yes, JPP still had talent when he was traded, but it looked to be a talent and effort level on the decline. And the Giants did get decent value. But to his credit, JPP clearly has had a re-birth of sorts over the past couple years and his play on the field shows it.
To evaluate because he has a good OL and probably a top 3 WR core in the league. I mean Gallup was a monster last night and he’s their third best WR.
If I’m TB - I would be really concerned cause their secondary was atrocious. Many of Dak’s completions were to guys that many of us could have completed.
Based on an average of 16 games per season, here are a few of Dak Prescott's career stats:
QB Rating
97.4
Completed Passes
356
Pass Attempts
537
Pass Completion Percentage
66.2%
Passing Yardage
4,123
TD Passes
25
INTs
9
Dak Prescott is an elite NFL QB.
Didnt look it up but isnt that basically daniel Jones rookie year stats in 12 games?
We can't talk about Jones' rookie year, at least not positively. He only had 3 good games against crappy teams, according to the BBI master haters.
In reality, prorated over 16 games, he would've had 32 TDs and over 4000 yds, but it doesn't matter.
he was paid a lot and didn't produce much for the last few years. We were a bad team. Paying an aging vet a lot of money while you are rebuilding doesn't make sense.
He gets traded and then winds up with Tom Brady and the all star team on offense - is it any shock why he'd start to play better and harder?
In sum, the JPP you see wouldn't likely be the one we'd have for us. Maybe the Graham factor changes that but he wasn't here when JPP was traded.
There are things I disagree with, and others I agree with here. 2015 was a lost year and just a miracle he even made it on the field for 8 games. 2016 he had 7 sacks through 12 games and was a big part of the Giants defense being one of the best in the league, then he followed it up with 8.5 sacks in 2017 on a terrible team that fell apart.
That said, I believe you are right in some of the intangible elements of his game and the dynamics within the team at that point in time. That's why I stated I don't really blame Gettleman for this one. It's just frustrating for me that the Giants had the patience with this player, gave him a second chance after his incident, and worked him back into being a solid player, to see him have a total rebirth on another team.
Good discussion. JPP is an interesting case study. He’s the type of player typically that you would think would be a Giant his whole career and the team wouldn’t sell away. I think a big part of why it happened can be attributed to the poor leadership we had here in this organization at that time. McAdoo and Shurmer didn’t really run programs that held players accountable, JPP is a guy with a sort of goofy personality, I think the Giants didn’t really see him as a leader and worth the money for how broken this team was at the time when leadership was the biggest thing missing.
I am happy fir him that he has had a resurgence in Tampa. I think he found the perfect place, close to his home, and he fits in with that teams philosophy and coaching staff perfectly. Shame he couldn’t remain a Giant for life, but it just didn’t pan out with our down years. It’s disappointing a bit, almost as disappointing as how much this organization wasted Eli’s years after those Super Bowls with poor roster management, etc. It is what it is, happens to every team over certain periods.
RE: There are a ton of reasons to slam Gettleman, and trust me,
But letting JPP go isn't one. Yes, JPP still had talent when he was traded, but it looked to be a talent and effort level on the decline. And the Giants did get decent value. But to his credit, JPP clearly has had a re-birth of sorts over the past couple years and his play on the field shows it.
he was paid a lot and didn't produce much for the last few years. We were a bad team. Paying an aging vet a lot of money while you are rebuilding doesn't make sense.
He gets traded and then winds up with Tom Brady and the all star team on offense - is it any shock why he'd start to play better and harder?
In sum, the JPP you see wouldn't likely be the one we'd have for us. Maybe the Graham factor changes that but he wasn't here when JPP was traded.
totally agree.
That was a push off by the TB receiver in late 4th qtr
Despite his numbers, he is still not one of the top QBs in the game until he proves he can win big games year in and year out. He has the talent surrounding him and a shitty division to do so.
I totally agree that winning big games should be part of that calculus for the great QBs. And Dak needs to represent he can before getting a great or elite designation.
He is still one of the top QBs in the league, and some of that is because there are only a few elite ones.
Last night was a big game, and when he left the field for the night he put his team ahead with both a 4QTR Comeback and a Game Winning Drive.
Unfortunately for Dak, the other team had one of those elite guys at QB that flipped those to himself...
RE: RE: There are a ton of reasons to slam Gettleman, and trust me,
But letting JPP go isn't one. Yes, JPP still had talent when he was traded, but it looked to be a talent and effort level on the decline. And the Giants did get decent value. But to his credit, JPP clearly has had a re-birth of sorts over the past couple years and his play on the field shows it.
To evaluate because he has a good OL and probably a top 3 WR core in the league. I mean Gallup was a monster last night and he’s their third best WR.
If I’m TB - I would be really concerned cause their secondary was atrocious. Many of Dak’s completions were to guys that many of us could have completed.
Based on an average of 16 games per season, here are a few of Dak Prescott's career stats:
QB Rating
97.4
Completed Passes
356
Pass Attempts
537
Pass Completion Percentage
66.2%
Passing Yardage
4,123
TD Passes
25
INTs
9
Dak Prescott is an elite NFL QB.
Didnt look it up but isnt that basically daniel Jones rookie year stats in 12 games?
We can't talk about Jones' rookie year, at least not positively. He only had 3 good games against crappy teams, according to the BBI master haters.
In reality, prorated over 16 games, he would've had 32 TDs and over 4000 yds, but it doesn't matter.
Here are the same stats for Daniel Jones. Dak's are in parentheses:
QB Rating
84.1
(97.4)
Completed Passes
334
(356)
Pass Attempts
537
(537)
Pass Completion Percentage
62.2%
(66.2%)
Passing Yardage
3538
(4,123)
TD Passes
21
(25)
INTs
13
(9)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Dak will always be really tough
To evaluate because he has a good OL and probably a top 3 WR core in the league. I mean Gallup was a monster last night and he’s their third best WR.
If I’m TB - I would be really concerned cause their secondary was atrocious. Many of Dak’s completions were to guys that many of us could have completed.
Based on an average of 16 games per season, here are a few of Dak Prescott's career stats:
QB Rating
97.4
Completed Passes
356
Pass Attempts
537
Pass Completion Percentage
66.2%
Passing Yardage
4,123
TD Passes
25
INTs
9
Dak Prescott is an elite NFL QB.
Didnt look it up but isnt that basically daniel Jones rookie year stats in 12 games?
We can't talk about Jones' rookie year, at least not positively. He only had 3 good games against crappy teams, according to the BBI master haters.
In reality, prorated over 16 games, he would've had 32 TDs and over 4000 yds, but it doesn't matter.
Here are the same stats for Daniel Jones. Dak's are in parentheses:
QB Rating
84.1
(97.4)
Completed Passes
334
(356)
Pass Attempts
537
(537)
Pass Completion Percentage
62.2%
(66.2%)
Passing Yardage
3538
(4,123)
TD Passes
21
(25)
INTs
13
(9)
so really not to far off, with a lot worse weapons and oline..
I like Dak, think he is a good QB but he is not Elite, You are an Elite QB when you are in the conversatio when talking about QBs you want in a game that is must win..
No one figured he would ever play the way he has the past couple years again, so I'm not gonna kill Gettleman on this one, but with the return being Billy Price (after the Hill trade and Lauletta having been off the roster for years), it's just unfortunate to be on the absolute losing side of this trade.
Lauletta should not be included as a return for JPP since the Giants actually got a worse fourth round pick in the swap that was part of the overall trade.
That said,there were a number of players who went in the third round after Giants picked B.J. Hill who would have made that trade look a whole lot better (Orlando Brown, Mark Andrews, Michael Gallup, Sam Hubbard).
Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
they are looking much, much better. Once Martin comes back, the running game will improve and they will score a ton of points. What Collinsworth said struck me, they want to run the ball and have explosive plays. That OL is healthy will let them do that.
Defensively, they don't look much better, I think they really miss not getting one of the top 2 corners. I think it will be the achilles heel for them this year and I predict they will make a trade to shore that up.
Watching them last night, I dont have a ton of confidence the Giants can beat them, they seem like a bad matchup. WR talent all over the place, good running game. Lawrence vs Thomas. Can we beat them in a shootout? We'll see. Jones will have to play really well after watching that DAL O.
Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
Bucs secondary is also trash and the Giants, on paper, is one of the best in football, Dak is not going to have wrs running free against the giants
Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
Their offense looks very solid. Their defense is going to keep them from earning wins. This is game one of the regular season, so you need to take things with a grain of salt as well. Tampa lost a lot of key players in their secondary early last night, and both teams tossed the ball at an exceptionally high rate. Was almost like watching arena football.
Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
Bucs secondary is also trash and the Giants, on paper, is one of the best in football, Dak is not going to have wrs running free against the giants
Dallas had that ball coming out quick, and to all the targets on the field. Teams will attack weak spots and even the Giant secondary has some that will need to step up...slot CB, and middle LBs and Peppers in coverage.
they are looking much, much better. Once Martin comes back, the running game will improve and they will score a ton of points. What Collinsworth said struck me, they want to run the ball and have explosive plays. That OL is healthy will let them do that.
Defensively, they don't look much better, I think they really miss not getting one of the top 2 corners. I think it will be the achilles heel for them this year and I predict they will make a trade to shore that up.
Watching them last night, I dont have a ton of confidence the Giants can beat them, they seem like a bad matchup. WR talent all over the place, good running game. Lawrence vs Thomas. Can we beat them in a shootout? We'll see. Jones will have to play really well after watching that DAL O.
I was thinking about this during the game last night too, that the Giants play those 2 teams three times. We haven't seen what the Giants are capable of yet, but I don't get the sense that they match up particularly well with Dallas. Dallas protects the QB, and our pass rush is very unproven. Giants secondary is good, but can they hold up against 3 #1 receivers and a QB who can deliver accurate balls to these guys in stride? It'll take 30+ points to win games against both of these teams, and with the state of the Giants OL, I'm not convinced they can do that at this point.
Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
Their offense looks very solid. Their defense is going to keep them from earning wins. This is game one of the regular season, so you need to take things with a grain of salt as well. Tampa lost a lot of key players in their secondary early last night, and both teams tossed the ball at an exceptionally high rate. Was almost like watching arena football.
I forget to put in my first post that the thing that's likely to hold them back the most is McCarthy. Dallas with a better HC probably wins last night
Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
Bucs secondary is also trash and the Giants, on paper, is one of the best in football, Dak is not going to have wrs running free against the giants
Dallas had that ball coming out quick, and to all the targets on the field. Teams will attack weak spots and even the Giant secondary has some that will need to step up...slot CB, and middle LBs and Peppers in coverage.
Yeah they might have the next best trio of WRs in the league next to the Bucs. Cooper, Lamb and Gallup are all bug fast physical guys. They caught just about everything thrown at them last night, and made some great contested catches. Moore is a very good OC, hopefully he leaves soon for a job elsewhere. But the offense is what’s going to keep them alive this year, unlike how our defense is built though and it should be perfect for stopping them. If our offense can’t take advantage of that defense they have then we don’t deserve the division.
Something like the Bucs are the first team to win a game having a -3 turnover ratio, over 100 yds in penalties, and giving up 450 passing yards (might have this a little wrong).
The Bucs were bad and handed it to the Cowboys. The Cowboys couldn't run the ball at all, and couldn't play defense at all. The Bucs easily should have had 40+ pts if they played ok. The Bucs also gave the Cowboys 2 turnovers deep in their own territory, and had penalties galore to extend drives. ALso I have no idea what the Bucs defensive backs were doing, and I'm not sure they did either
On any other Sunday this game would have handed 45 - 17 or so. I am not impressed with the Cowboys at all. In my opinion this game was more about TB's ineptitude than the Cowboys
Something like the Bucs are the first team to win a game having a -3 turnover ratio, over 100 yds in penalties, and giving up 450 passing yards (might have this a little wrong).
The Bucs were bad and handed it to the Cowboys. The Cowboys couldn't run the ball at all, and couldn't play defense at all. The Bucs easily should have had 40+ pts if they played ok. The Bucs also gave the Cowboys 2 turnovers deep in their own territory, and had penalties galore to extend drives. ALso I have no idea what the Bucs defensive backs were doing, and I'm not sure they did either
On any other Sunday this game would have handed 45 - 17 or so. I am not impressed with the Cowboys at all. In my opinion this game was more about TB's ineptitude than the Cowboys
Both team's run game was stoned.
Dallas D handled the run game just fine. They just couldn't stop Tom Brady.
Same could be said about the Bucs. Their D also stopped the run game, but they couldn't handle Dak Prescott.
Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
Bucs secondary is also trash and the Giants, on paper, is one of the best in football, Dak is not going to have wrs running free against the giants
I don't get it. People are saying they should have run the ball more, why? Against that front 7 and a massive talent differntial on the outside. The Bucs secondary isn't good and they only looked "good" last year because the Bucs score forcing teams to throw the ball and their front 7 pressure creates some gimmes. If you put them on a team with a mediocre front 7 they'd be getting torched all over the place.
Something like the Bucs are the first team to win a game having a -3 turnover ratio, over 100 yds in penalties, and giving up 450 passing yards (might have this a little wrong).
The Bucs were bad and handed it to the Cowboys. The Cowboys couldn't run the ball at all, and couldn't play defense at all. The Bucs easily should have had 40+ pts if they played ok. The Bucs also gave the Cowboys 2 turnovers deep in their own territory, and had penalties galore to extend drives. ALso I have no idea what the Bucs defensive backs were doing, and I'm not sure they did either
On any other Sunday this game would have handed 45 - 17 or so. I am not impressed with the Cowboys at all. In my opinion this game was more about TB's ineptitude than the Cowboys
Tampa is the least impressive very good/great team I've seen in a long time.
They won the SB in dominating fashion (perhaps aided by some factors), but couldn't dominate good teams last year. Postseason wasn't clear cut dominant either, could have lost any of the 3 games they played in.
Maybe Brady is the equalizing factors, allowing them to win close games. But overall as a team I think they're a bit overrated.
That said, I'm happy for JPP. Guy's career should have been over on 7/4/15, and not only did he make it back into the NFL, he's got himself another ring and has a real shot at yet another.
The Giants are not going to beat Dallas scoring 20-24 points.
As they showed last night though, it is difficult settling for FG's and winning
Yep.
That is what the season is all about for Giants. Can their offense put up enough points to win games...
That said, I'm happy for JPP. Guy's career should have been over on 7/4/15, and not only did he make it back into the NFL, he's got himself another ring and has a real shot at yet another.
I’ll never understand that trade!
Watch the game with your eyes and assess Dak's play. He was tough, accurate, decisive, productive from start to finish and, most importantly, he put his team ahead with a minute to go in the game. If you look at him objectively, its near impossible to say he didn't play very good last night and is one of the top QBs in the league.
You would need to be chucklehead to suggest otherwise...
I agree 100% with this. I have always been someone to knock Dak, but every year it gets harder and harder to see him as anything other than a top 10 QB. Yes, you can say he's always had an elite OL, Zeke, weapons all over the field, but every successful QB has a system/personnel around them that fits with their skill set. Are we going to discount Jones this year if he has a 4,500 yard, 30 TD season because the Giants brought in Golladay, Rudolph, Toney, and get Barkley back? Absolutely not, we'll say he finally had the pieces around him to succeed (OL not withstanding).
We'll hear everything from "he's in FLA" as to the reason he's playing well, to "he was a cancer" here.
The bottom line is he's a dominant football player, just like he was here. And it would be great if we still had him. Imagine having JPP next to Leonard Williams & Dexter Lawrence?
The ironic thing is, he's pretty much the missing piece to us having a great D now.
He gets traded and then winds up with Tom Brady and the all star team on offense - is it any shock why he'd start to play better and harder?
In sum, the JPP you see wouldn't likely be the one we'd have for us. Maybe the Graham factor changes that but he wasn't here when JPP was traded.
Watch the game with your eyes and assess Dak's play. He was tough, accurate, decisive, productive from start to finish and, most importantly, he put his team ahead with a minute to go in the game. If you look at him objectively, its near impossible to say he didn't play very good last night and is one of the top QBs in the league.
You would need to be chucklehead to suggest otherwise...
Top QBs win big games. And if Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, etc... had the ball at the end of the game - their clock mangament wouldnt let Brady get the ball back. See Brady use the clock to his advantage last night? Lets not forget the awful sack Dak took at the end of the first half before a holding penalty to take the mout of field goal range. They had the chance to take the lead or be within a FG of the lead, and got the ball tostart the 2nd half - and he failed.
Dak was fine last night. He played well, and did what he had to do to win the game. But people thinking that was some kind of great or elite performance are just wanting to prop other players to push down the ones they root for.
Quote:
to discount his play because of a particular stat that you want to give somebody crap about, or because you are indirectly (indirectly) trying to defend Daniel Jones from his critics.
Watch the game with your eyes and assess Dak's play. He was tough, accurate, decisive, productive from start to finish and, most importantly, he put his team ahead with a minute to go in the game. If you look at him objectively, its near impossible to say he didn't play very good last night and is one of the top QBs in the league.
You would need to be chucklehead to suggest otherwise...
Top QBs win big games. And if Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, etc... had the ball at the end of the game - their clock mangament wouldnt let Brady get the ball back. See Brady use the clock to his advantage last night? Lets not forget the awful sack Dak took at the end of the first half before a holding penalty to take the mout of field goal range. They had the chance to take the lead or be within a FG of the lead, and got the ball tostart the 2nd half - and he failed.
Dak was fine last night. He played well, and did what he had to do to win the game. But people thinking that was some kind of great or elite performance are just wanting to prop other players to push down the ones they root for.
I said Dak was very good last night, not great or elite. And this isn't about Brady...I already know he's great.
And you just made my last point...
He gets traded and then winds up with Tom Brady and the all star team on offense - is it any shock why he'd start to play better and harder?
In sum, the JPP you see wouldn't likely be the one we'd have for us. Maybe the Graham factor changes that but he wasn't here when JPP was traded.
There are things I disagree with, and others I agree with here. 2015 was a lost year and just a miracle he even made it on the field for 8 games. 2016 he had 7 sacks through 12 games and was a big part of the Giants defense being one of the best in the league, then he followed it up with 8.5 sacks in 2017 on a terrible team that fell apart.
That said, I believe you are right in some of the intangible elements of his game and the dynamics within the team at that point in time. That's why I stated I don't really blame Gettleman for this one. It's just frustrating for me that the Giants had the patience with this player, gave him a second chance after his incident, and worked him back into being a solid player, to see him have a total rebirth on another team.
Despite his numbers, he is still not one of the top QBs in the game until he proves he can win big games year in and year out. He has the talent surrounding him and a shitty division to do so.
Happy he has found a second wind and I think being in Florida has really helped him. Look forward to him being in the Ring of Honor.
But letting JPP go isn't one. Yes, JPP still had talent when he was traded, but it looked to be a talent and effort level on the decline. And the Giants did get decent value. But to his credit, JPP clearly has had a re-birth of sorts over the past couple years and his play on the field shows it.
Good for him, not bad for us...
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In comment 15357985 GNewGiants said:
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To evaluate because he has a good OL and probably a top 3 WR core in the league. I mean Gallup was a monster last night and he’s their third best WR.
If I’m TB - I would be really concerned cause their secondary was atrocious. Many of Dak’s completions were to guys that many of us could have completed.
Based on an average of 16 games per season, here are a few of Dak Prescott's career stats:
QB Rating
97.4
Completed Passes
356
Pass Attempts
537
Pass Completion Percentage
66.2%
Passing Yardage
4,123
TD Passes
25
INTs
9
Dak Prescott is an elite NFL QB.
Didnt look it up but isnt that basically daniel Jones rookie year stats in 12 games?
We can't talk about Jones' rookie year, at least not positively. He only had 3 good games against crappy teams, according to the BBI master haters.
In reality, prorated over 16 games, he would've had 32 TDs and over 4000 yds, but it doesn't matter.
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he was paid a lot and didn't produce much for the last few years. We were a bad team. Paying an aging vet a lot of money while you are rebuilding doesn't make sense.
He gets traded and then winds up with Tom Brady and the all star team on offense - is it any shock why he'd start to play better and harder?
In sum, the JPP you see wouldn't likely be the one we'd have for us. Maybe the Graham factor changes that but he wasn't here when JPP was traded.
There are things I disagree with, and others I agree with here. 2015 was a lost year and just a miracle he even made it on the field for 8 games. 2016 he had 7 sacks through 12 games and was a big part of the Giants defense being one of the best in the league, then he followed it up with 8.5 sacks in 2017 on a terrible team that fell apart.
That said, I believe you are right in some of the intangible elements of his game and the dynamics within the team at that point in time. That's why I stated I don't really blame Gettleman for this one. It's just frustrating for me that the Giants had the patience with this player, gave him a second chance after his incident, and worked him back into being a solid player, to see him have a total rebirth on another team.
Good discussion. JPP is an interesting case study. He’s the type of player typically that you would think would be a Giant his whole career and the team wouldn’t sell away. I think a big part of why it happened can be attributed to the poor leadership we had here in this organization at that time. McAdoo and Shurmer didn’t really run programs that held players accountable, JPP is a guy with a sort of goofy personality, I think the Giants didn’t really see him as a leader and worth the money for how broken this team was at the time when leadership was the biggest thing missing.
I am happy fir him that he has had a resurgence in Tampa. I think he found the perfect place, close to his home, and he fits in with that teams philosophy and coaching staff perfectly. Shame he couldn’t remain a Giant for life, but it just didn’t pan out with our down years. It’s disappointing a bit, almost as disappointing as how much this organization wasted Eli’s years after those Super Bowls with poor roster management, etc. It is what it is, happens to every team over certain periods.
But letting JPP go isn't one. Yes, JPP still had talent when he was traded, but it looked to be a talent and effort level on the decline. And the Giants did get decent value. But to his credit, JPP clearly has had a re-birth of sorts over the past couple years and his play on the field shows it.
Good for him, not bad for us...
This I agree with you 100%.
He gets traded and then winds up with Tom Brady and the all star team on offense - is it any shock why he'd start to play better and harder?
In sum, the JPP you see wouldn't likely be the one we'd have for us. Maybe the Graham factor changes that but he wasn't here when JPP was traded.
totally agree.
Despite his numbers, he is still not one of the top QBs in the game until he proves he can win big games year in and year out. He has the talent surrounding him and a shitty division to do so.
I totally agree that winning big games should be part of that calculus for the great QBs. And Dak needs to represent he can before getting a great or elite designation.
He is still one of the top QBs in the league, and some of that is because there are only a few elite ones.
Last night was a big game, and when he left the field for the night he put his team ahead with both a 4QTR Comeback and a Game Winning Drive.
Unfortunately for Dak, the other team had one of those elite guys at QB that flipped those to himself...
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I have mentioned nearly all of them thus far.
But letting JPP go isn't one. Yes, JPP still had talent when he was traded, but it looked to be a talent and effort level on the decline. And the Giants did get decent value. But to his credit, JPP clearly has had a re-birth of sorts over the past couple years and his play on the field shows it.
Good for him, not bad for us...
This I agree with you 100%.
Good, glad to see you catching on...
:-)
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In comment 15357989 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15357985 GNewGiants said:
Quote:
To evaluate because he has a good OL and probably a top 3 WR core in the league. I mean Gallup was a monster last night and he’s their third best WR.
If I’m TB - I would be really concerned cause their secondary was atrocious. Many of Dak’s completions were to guys that many of us could have completed.
Based on an average of 16 games per season, here are a few of Dak Prescott's career stats:
QB Rating
97.4
Completed Passes
356
Pass Attempts
537
Pass Completion Percentage
66.2%
Passing Yardage
4,123
TD Passes
25
INTs
9
Dak Prescott is an elite NFL QB.
Didnt look it up but isnt that basically daniel Jones rookie year stats in 12 games?
We can't talk about Jones' rookie year, at least not positively. He only had 3 good games against crappy teams, according to the BBI master haters.
In reality, prorated over 16 games, he would've had 32 TDs and over 4000 yds, but it doesn't matter.
Here are the same stats for Daniel Jones. Dak's are in parentheses:
QB Rating
84.1
(97.4)
Completed Passes
334
(356)
Pass Attempts
537
(537)
Pass Completion Percentage
62.2%
(66.2%)
Passing Yardage
3538
(4,123)
TD Passes
21
(25)
INTs
13
(9)
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In comment 15357991 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 15357989 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15357985 GNewGiants said:
Quote:
To evaluate because he has a good OL and probably a top 3 WR core in the league. I mean Gallup was a monster last night and he’s their third best WR.
If I’m TB - I would be really concerned cause their secondary was atrocious. Many of Dak’s completions were to guys that many of us could have completed.
Based on an average of 16 games per season, here are a few of Dak Prescott's career stats:
QB Rating
97.4
Completed Passes
356
Pass Attempts
537
Pass Completion Percentage
66.2%
Passing Yardage
4,123
TD Passes
25
INTs
9
Dak Prescott is an elite NFL QB.
Didnt look it up but isnt that basically daniel Jones rookie year stats in 12 games?
We can't talk about Jones' rookie year, at least not positively. He only had 3 good games against crappy teams, according to the BBI master haters.
In reality, prorated over 16 games, he would've had 32 TDs and over 4000 yds, but it doesn't matter.
Here are the same stats for Daniel Jones. Dak's are in parentheses:
QB Rating
84.1
(97.4)
Completed Passes
334
(356)
Pass Attempts
537
(537)
Pass Completion Percentage
62.2%
(66.2%)
Passing Yardage
3538
(4,123)
TD Passes
21
(25)
INTs
13
(9)
so really not to far off, with a lot worse weapons and oline..
I like Dak, think he is a good QB but he is not Elite, You are an Elite QB when you are in the conversatio when talking about QBs you want in a game that is must win..
Lauletta should not be included as a return for JPP since the Giants actually got a worse fourth round pick in the swap that was part of the overall trade.
That said,there were a number of players who went in the third round after Giants picked B.J. Hill who would have made that trade look a whole lot better (Orlando Brown, Mark Andrews, Michael Gallup, Sam Hubbard).
Real problem was in executing that pick.
Defensively, they don't look much better, I think they really miss not getting one of the top 2 corners. I think it will be the achilles heel for them this year and I predict they will make a trade to shore that up.
Watching them last night, I dont have a ton of confidence the Giants can beat them, they seem like a bad matchup. WR talent all over the place, good running game. Lawrence vs Thomas. Can we beat them in a shootout? We'll see. Jones will have to play really well after watching that DAL O.
Bucs secondary is also trash and the Giants, on paper, is one of the best in football, Dak is not going to have wrs running free against the giants
Their offense looks very solid. Their defense is going to keep them from earning wins. This is game one of the regular season, so you need to take things with a grain of salt as well. Tampa lost a lot of key players in their secondary early last night, and both teams tossed the ball at an exceptionally high rate. Was almost like watching arena football.
Prescott played pretty well, too. Maybe he really is that good.
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Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
Bucs secondary is also trash and the Giants, on paper, is one of the best in football, Dak is not going to have wrs running free against the giants
Dallas had that ball coming out quick, and to all the targets on the field. Teams will attack weak spots and even the Giant secondary has some that will need to step up...slot CB, and middle LBs and Peppers in coverage.
Defensively, they don't look much better, I think they really miss not getting one of the top 2 corners. I think it will be the achilles heel for them this year and I predict they will make a trade to shore that up.
Watching them last night, I dont have a ton of confidence the Giants can beat them, they seem like a bad matchup. WR talent all over the place, good running game. Lawrence vs Thomas. Can we beat them in a shootout? We'll see. Jones will have to play really well after watching that DAL O.
I was thinking about this during the game last night too, that the Giants play those 2 teams three times. We haven't seen what the Giants are capable of yet, but I don't get the sense that they match up particularly well with Dallas. Dallas protects the QB, and our pass rush is very unproven. Giants secondary is good, but can they hold up against 3 #1 receivers and a QB who can deliver accurate balls to these guys in stride? It'll take 30+ points to win games against both of these teams, and with the state of the Giants OL, I'm not convinced they can do that at this point.
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Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
Their offense looks very solid. Their defense is going to keep them from earning wins. This is game one of the regular season, so you need to take things with a grain of salt as well. Tampa lost a lot of key players in their secondary early last night, and both teams tossed the ball at an exceptionally high rate. Was almost like watching arena football.
I forget to put in my first post that the thing that's likely to hold them back the most is McCarthy. Dallas with a better HC probably wins last night
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In comment 15358104 Scooter185 said:
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Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
Bucs secondary is also trash and the Giants, on paper, is one of the best in football, Dak is not going to have wrs running free against the giants
Dallas had that ball coming out quick, and to all the targets on the field. Teams will attack weak spots and even the Giant secondary has some that will need to step up...slot CB, and middle LBs and Peppers in coverage.
Yeah they might have the next best trio of WRs in the league next to the Bucs. Cooper, Lamb and Gallup are all bug fast physical guys. They caught just about everything thrown at them last night, and made some great contested catches. Moore is a very good OC, hopefully he leaves soon for a job elsewhere. But the offense is what’s going to keep them alive this year, unlike how our defense is built though and it should be perfect for stopping them. If our offense can’t take advantage of that defense they have then we don’t deserve the division.
They can limit the damage and (hopefully) keep the point total down.
But that's not the worry.
What will our offense do?
If there isn't significant improvement over the past several years, 0-2 against the Cowboys.
The Bucs were bad and handed it to the Cowboys. The Cowboys couldn't run the ball at all, and couldn't play defense at all. The Bucs easily should have had 40+ pts if they played ok. The Bucs also gave the Cowboys 2 turnovers deep in their own territory, and had penalties galore to extend drives. ALso I have no idea what the Bucs defensive backs were doing, and I'm not sure they did either
On any other Sunday this game would have handed 45 - 17 or so. I am not impressed with the Cowboys at all. In my opinion this game was more about TB's ineptitude than the Cowboys
The Bucs were bad and handed it to the Cowboys. The Cowboys couldn't run the ball at all, and couldn't play defense at all. The Bucs easily should have had 40+ pts if they played ok. The Bucs also gave the Cowboys 2 turnovers deep in their own territory, and had penalties galore to extend drives. ALso I have no idea what the Bucs defensive backs were doing, and I'm not sure they did either
On any other Sunday this game would have handed 45 - 17 or so. I am not impressed with the Cowboys at all. In my opinion this game was more about TB's ineptitude than the Cowboys
Both team's run game was stoned.
Dallas D handled the run game just fine. They just couldn't stop Tom Brady.
Same could be said about the Bucs. Their D also stopped the run game, but they couldn't handle Dak Prescott.
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Dallas showed more than anyone was really expecting, especially Dak coming off injury. They didn't get the all important dub at the end of the night, but they look like they're going to be a problem for the division.
Bucs secondary is also trash and the Giants, on paper, is one of the best in football, Dak is not going to have wrs running free against the giants
I don't get it. People are saying they should have run the ball more, why? Against that front 7 and a massive talent differntial on the outside. The Bucs secondary isn't good and they only looked "good" last year because the Bucs score forcing teams to throw the ball and their front 7 pressure creates some gimmes. If you put them on a team with a mediocre front 7 they'd be getting torched all over the place.
The Bucs were bad and handed it to the Cowboys. The Cowboys couldn't run the ball at all, and couldn't play defense at all. The Bucs easily should have had 40+ pts if they played ok. The Bucs also gave the Cowboys 2 turnovers deep in their own territory, and had penalties galore to extend drives. ALso I have no idea what the Bucs defensive backs were doing, and I'm not sure they did either
On any other Sunday this game would have handed 45 - 17 or so. I am not impressed with the Cowboys at all. In my opinion this game was more about TB's ineptitude than the Cowboys
Tampa is the least impressive very good/great team I've seen in a long time.
They won the SB in dominating fashion (perhaps aided by some factors), but couldn't dominate good teams last year. Postseason wasn't clear cut dominant either, could have lost any of the 3 games they played in.
Maybe Brady is the equalizing factors, allowing them to win close games. But overall as a team I think they're a bit overrated.