More money matters: The #Giants converted $2.4 million of Leonard Williams’ salary into a bonus. It created $1.6M in cap space. They were tight against the cap entering this week.
players who got multi-year 2nd contracts drafted by NYG in the 6 drafts from 12-17
2 here (OBJ, Shep)
6 elsewhere (Pugh, Richburg, Kennard, Collins, Hart, Tomlinson)
(aka why Marc Ross went pro in something other than GM'ing)
by contrast, here's how the 2 drafts from 18-19 look right now:
1 already extended (gates udfa)
2 will likely extend health permitting (Barkley, Lawrence)
6 on the fence (Hernandez, Carter, Jones, Ximines, Love, Slayton)
(7 if you count beal but he's way more on the fence than the others)
in case you needed any more reason to believe this is a pretty pivotal year for determining whether or not this regime's key draft decisions were good enough.
If you had to choose between a nice healthy cap OR acquiring the players we did this off-season, which would you choose? And don't say "they need to do better drafting", that's a different discussion for a different thread.
A competent group should be able to do better in both directions. I'm not angry or disappointed by it, merely pointing out from a business competency standpoint, the end result ROI is below average and needs a lot of work. Those who fail to see the difference (usual suspects, not you, Dave) are not surprising.
Yup I’m one of them. You can go ahead and say it. I was always one of the OT a very very select few that said we’d have a busy offseason last spring (many here said we COULDN’T, let’s not BS anyone here) and also I said days before week 1 last year that the defense was going to exceed EVERYONE’s expectations.
Now I’m saying this team will be kept together if they are worthy of being kept together. The financials won’t hinder that. And I think they will be worthy. We can revisit that too.
You basically agreed with re: drafting unless I'm missing your point. Good examples of poor drafting.
You know who else agreed? John Mara when he fired the guys who did that poor drafting in January 2018.
The poor drafting then is why the new regime had available $ for UFA's the past 2-3 years - not as much the draft record of the new regime.
The Patriots spending spree this past offseason was an example of the same thing with a different organization. Their drafting was pretty bad from 2014-2019, and they compounded their errors by letting some of their best picks leave without drafting well enough to replace them.
if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
This so called blind loyalist predicted 7-9 last year and said the offense would mightily struggle, especially early on but the D would forge an identity in 2020. That’s not a take a blind fan comes up with.
Just because I don’t condemn DG doesn’t mean I’m blind. I just don’t agree with the DG hot takes around here. I know what I’m watching.
6-10. They almost lost to the Bengals while pushing the Bucs in defeat. That's what bad teams do, find ways to lose.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
The lack of turnover in the scouting staff during DG's first two years was quite surprising to me. It sounds like he toggled how players are ranked, but the issue seemed to run much deeper.
I look at the Colts/Ravens 2018 drafts. Or even NYG's 2004 and 2005 (and 2007) drafts. Those are drafts that lead to contenders. We have not had one of those yet under DG.
Jon re: the bold isn't this basically established fact already?
if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
was there anyone credibly arguing that there weren't systemic failures that resulted in terrible drafts from basically 2011-2017? other than Marc Ross' parents?
my point isn't to withhold judgement from the current regime, just that they their judgement needs to be evaluated against the context of their situation. They spent money in FA because they did't have anyone to spend money on from the drafts. Enter Nate Solder, Leonard Williams, James Bradberry, Blake Martinez, Logan Ryan, Kenny Golladay, Adoree Jackson.
I didn't/don't agree with all of those signings but I'd disagree with calling any of those moves head scratchers. Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
This is it in a nutshell. DGs drafts will look fine IF Jones and Thomas are the goods. Barkley as well but I think ownership would give DG a pass if Bark just can’t get healthy as he’s clearly an NFL star talent.
It’s probably a little too simple but it does come down to Jones and the LT. DG can find talent in the middle rounds and he appears to have a good rapport with Judge. The QB usually sways the needle. It’s pretty much on Jones, but at least now there aren’t any excuses. He’s had time in the same system, etc.
6-10. They almost lost to the Bengals while pushing the Bucs in defeat. That's what bad teams do, find ways to lose.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
Well said. And while I've been fairly negative, there's more reason for optimism this year than any. Bluntly, I thought the people who thought we were going to get to ten wins in 2018-2020 were crazy. I can see a path there. A lot needs to break right (OL/Jones) and I certainly wouldn't bet on it - but I can at least see some potential good outcomes.
6-10. They almost lost to the Bengals while pushing the Bucs in defeat. That's what bad teams do, find ways to lose.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
Fair enough. I think 2020 can end up a productive bad year but 21 needs to validate things first. We shall see.
RE: Jon re: the bold isn't this basically established fact already?
if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
was there anyone credibly arguing that there weren't systemic failures that resulted in terrible drafts from basically 2011-2017? other than Marc Ross' parents?
my point isn't to withhold judgement from the current regime, just that they their judgement needs to be evaluated against the context of their situation. They spent money in FA because they did't have anyone to spend money on from the drafts. Enter Nate Solder, Leonard Williams, James Bradberry, Blake Martinez, Logan Ryan, Kenny Golladay, Adoree Jackson.
I didn't/don't agree with all of those signings but I'd disagree with calling any of those moves head scratchers. Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
I figured the context went without saying, it still points to backfilling poor draft picks. I'm not seeing where we disagree here ...
Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
Yes, I don't think drafting under DG is proving to be very successful
Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
RE: Yes, I don't think drafting under DG is proving to be very successful
Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
I feel the same way. Still time to turn a corner, but the lack of production from his first round investments to date is a concern. DG has had 6 first round selections, including a 2, and 4, and a 6. Time to see the returns on all that.
RE: RE: Teams with the most cap space in the NFL are often lousy
Getting bent over it one way or another is pointless in my view.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
What makes you say Abrams is good? I don't know how to properly analyze his performance but I see the assertion all the time.
Following the team for years I don't feel I've ever seen the salary cap as an obstacle. They're always utilizing the space without ever being "strapped". Anecdotally, this past offseason there were a lot of people claiming we were in cap trouble and wouldn't be able to do a thing. Most people here are always moving the goal posts though.
RE: Yes, I don't think drafting under DG is proving to be very successful
Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
My biggest issue with DG has been using a significant percentage of Day 1 and Day 2 picks on DBs and still needing to fill 3 of 4 starting positions with free agent signings.
RE: Yes, I don't think drafting under DG is proving to be very successful
Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
Lawrence and Barkly should be 2 of their better players on either side of the ball this year (and have been since being drafted when on the field).
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
RE: RE: RE: Teams with the most cap space in the NFL are often lousy
Getting bent over it one way or another is pointless in my view.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
What makes you say Abrams is good? I don't know how to properly analyze his performance but I see the assertion all the time.
Following the team for years I don't feel I've ever seen the salary cap as an obstacle. They're always utilizing the space without ever being "strapped". Anecdotally, this past offseason there were a lot of people claiming we were in cap trouble and wouldn't be able to do a thing. Most people here are always moving the goal posts though.
Thanks for the response - I don't know the cap stuff well, so I've always been hesitant to really have a view. To your point, I didn't really understand how we were able to do what we did this off-season.
RE: RE: Yes, I don't think drafting under DG is proving to be very successful
Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
Lawrence and Barkly should be 2 of their better players on either side of the ball this year (and have been since being drafted when on the field).
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
it's hard for me to think of very many reasons for either to be worse this year than they were last year but on the flip side I think there are lots of reasons they could be better (better talent around them, better depth, 2nd year with this coaching staff, a full training camp/offseason, etc). but that's why they play the games as they say.
it happens more often than not, it's why the draft is such a crapshoot. Especially when you spend top six picks on players who imv were not elite prospects in Jones and Thomas. In two days we will begin to learn more and I'm fired up for it.
Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
I am not in agreement with the above sentiments.
Headscratching is suggesting options were so scarce several years ago that making desperation-type player moves was a prudent path out of the abyss. As is supporting the drafting has gotten better (keeping in context of when they were drafting too) and free agency is getting more hits than misses, and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet.
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
it's hard for me to think of very many reasons for either to be worse this year than they were last year but on the flip side I think there are lots of reasons they could be better (better talent around them, better depth, 2nd year with this coaching staff, a full training camp/offseason, etc). but that's why they play the games as they say.
Agree here. The OL is probably the reason why they can be worse, but all other main areas should point to same or better...
it happens more often than not, it's why the draft is such a crapshoot. Especially when you spend top six picks on players who imv were not elite prospects in Jones and Thomas. In two days we will begin to learn more and I'm fired up for it.
Of course - but Jones rookie year he showed a lot. And his ball placement especially has stood out from day 1. Most of my concerns with Jones relate more to the offensive scheme around him than his abilities.
Thomas could just be what he is (and I just saw the other thread with Schwartz' comments which if true are very concerning).
Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
I am not in agreement with the above sentiments.
Headscratching is suggesting options were so scarce several years ago that making desperation-type player moves was a prudent path out of the abyss. As is supporting the drafting has gotten better (keeping in context of when they were drafting too) and free agency is getting more hits than misses, and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet.
"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
Giants are prepared to NOT be active in free agency in 2022.
I think that they think that they have built a team (at least on the defensive side) that they can go with for at least the next 2-3 seasons. Offense is still shaky because of the o-line and everyone there needs to step up but I think next year’s draft will be used to create needed future starter development and depth. The 2021 draft class should be very deep and the cap will rise.
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
Eric, Jon — I have a mildly different take on the signing drafted players.
Yes, on the rookie deal you need premium output. But with the minor structural advantage (comp picks) actually with letting players go, I never get hung up on signing drafted players IF you use the resources to sign better players.
All things equal I’m not losing sleep the Giants let Tomlinson go and signed Golladay for example.
In comment 15358300 Dave on the UWS said: Quote:
If you had to choose between a nice healthy cap OR acquiring the players we did this off-season, which would you choose? And don't say "they need to do better drafting", that's a different discussion for a different thread.//////
A competent group should be able to do better in both directions. I'm not angry or disappointed by it, merely pointing out from a business competency standpoint, the end result ROI is below average and needs a lot of work. Those who fail to see the difference (usual suspects, not you, Dave) are not surprising.
A point I believe not enough people are talking about, and which would turn this discussion of all the FAs signed as a good and necessary use of cap space upside down is that EACH and EVERY one of these marquis FAs comes with material risk/likelihood of not being on the field for 17 games: Golladay, Jackson, Rudolph, each has already nursed familiar injuries in camp. Jackson is the only one of the three to see some pre-season activity, and got dinged.
Beyond this, you have 4 of the first 5 picks in this draft class not even suiting up for a game in pre-season, and the 5th (and team's 2nd) having his time in pre-season 'managed' because of his injury history.
Yep, it's why I wasn't thrilled with signing KG or Jackson. They're both highly effective NFL players at times, but both came with questions including injuries. I knew they wanted KG badly, he was no surprise they were willing to gamble on him. Jackson was a surprise to me.
"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
hence my inclusion of the word "yet"...
Was there something else?
RE: Giants are prepared to NOT be active in free agency in 2022.
I think that they think that they have built a team (at least on the defensive side) that they can go with for at least the next 2-3 seasons. Offense is still shaky because of the o-line and everyone there needs to step up but I think next year’s draft will be used to create needed future starter development and depth. The 2021 draft class should be very deep and the cap will rise.
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
They will focus on the draft and bring in tier1 and tier2 young cost control talent ... that will balance the cap and give the abililty groom and coach up ... The kicker is does Jones not make the step and we have to switch gears and use the draft capital to get a top pick @ QB (which will still be cost controlled)
RE: Giants are prepared to NOT be active in free agency in 2022.
I think that they think that they have built a team (at least on the defensive side) that they can go with for at least the next 2-3 seasons. Offense is still shaky because of the o-line and everyone there needs to step up but I think next year’s draft will be used to create needed future starter development and depth. The 2021 draft class should be very deep and the cap will rise.
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
Agreed. I think they are set up next year to use the draft to supplement talent. They will largely sit out FA, and recoup some comp picks for guys they let go
Yep, it's why I wasn't thrilled with signing KG or Jackson. They're both highly effective NFL players at times, but both came with questions including injuries. I knew they wanted KG badly, he was no surprise they were willing to gamble on him. Jackson was a surprise to me.
this we are in agreement on. I was much more confident in the 2020 offseason moves as soon as they happened than this years, though I do think this year's moves were worthy gambles. They are higher risk and higher reward - but with a 3rd year QB who could go either way I like the aggressiveness.
the strategy makes sense to give Jones every resource possible to succeed, and the fact that they were able to hedge with 2 firsts next year is even better. Worst case scenario they are QB shopping again and the new QB has some non-ideal veterans around him (like KG). But in reality most likely the roster would have to get largely retooled if they have to break in a new QB again any way.
(and of course none of that is to say plan A will work or that anyone in the current FO should be in the drivers seat for plan B - just that as plans go, they could each work out).
"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
Bottom line with resource allocation is winning. Winning always requires good top and middle shelf vets, and contribution from young players.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
They only have ONE player drafted by the team prior to '18. I don't know for sure, but my guess is we're the only team in the league in that situation (not totally, but largely due to the failure of prior GM and staff).
It's mathematically impossible to completely overhaul an NFL roster (ok, 52 out of 53) in that short a time, without a significant number of FA signings. If you assume 8 draft picks (including a comp, not including trades) per yr X 4 = 32. Even the most brilliant GM doesn't hit on nearly every pick. Don't know for sure, but would guess hitting on 3-4 per draft is pretty good. 3.5 x 4 = 14. That leaves roughly 39 players needed to overhaul (hopefully eventually improve) the roster via FA (including UDFAs).
A team like Cincy would do more bargain bin shopping in this situation. We're fortunate that the Giants have done some shopping in the high $ bin (Golladay, L. Williams, Martinez, Jackson, et al..). I'll let Abrams and co. worry about the cap.
Bottom line with resource allocation is winning. Winning always requires good top and middle shelf vets, and contribution from young players.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
The team was in shambles prior to the current GM and then they made the mistake of trying to build around Eli. There were other bad moves but some of that was coach choices and the impact they may have had on personal moves. A year and a half ago nobody could have seen the cap dropping. Overall I think the team has moved forward over the last two years talent wise and I hope it translates to more wins this year in year 2 of the new coaching regime.
Bottom line with resource allocation is winning. Winning always requires good top and middle shelf vets, and contribution from young players.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
The team was in shambles prior to the current GM and then they made the mistake of trying to build around Eli. There were other bad moves but some of that was coach choices and the impact they may have had on personal moves. A year and a half ago nobody could have seen the cap dropping. Overall I think the team has moved forward over the last two years talent wise and I hope it translates to more wins this year in year 2 of the new coaching regime.
Convenient paragraph to shift the blame for the last four years as best you can. At this point, it's on the guys that are still here so let's keep it real.
We all hope it translates to more wins this time...
The team was in shambles prior to the current GM and then they made the mistake of trying to build around Eli. There were other bad moves but some of that was coach choices and the impact they may have had on personal moves. A year and a half ago nobody could have seen the cap dropping. Overall I think the team has moved forward over the last two years talent wise and I hope it translates to more wins this year in year 2 of the new coaching regime.
I think it takes 3 years to evaluate a big overhaul, and I don’t get stuck on how/who/why. The failures were New York Giants failures. Coaching, draft picks, veteran acquisitions.
The big moves in 2018 all stunk. I’ll reserve judgement on the big 2020 moves until after next season. A lot can change between now and then, both good and bad.
You go into each season, and your wins and losses judge how well you put together your roster and staff. Until the Giants compete for a winning record , I’m not giving anyone much credit for anything.
2 here (OBJ, Shep)
6 elsewhere (Pugh, Richburg, Kennard, Collins, Hart, Tomlinson)
(aka why Marc Ross went pro in something other than GM'ing)
by contrast, here's how the 2 drafts from 18-19 look right now:
1 already extended (gates udfa)
2 will likely extend health permitting (Barkley, Lawrence)
6 on the fence (Hernandez, Carter, Jones, Ximines, Love, Slayton)
(7 if you count beal but he's way more on the fence than the others)
in case you needed any more reason to believe this is a pretty pivotal year for determining whether or not this regime's key draft decisions were good enough.
The giants aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary. It’s football business. Why are we angry again?
Right? Why look a gift horse in the mouth? This is working, the proof is in the pudding.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
What makes you say Abrams is good? I don't know how to properly analyze his performance but I see the assertion all the time.
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If you had to choose between a nice healthy cap OR acquiring the players we did this off-season, which would you choose? And don't say "they need to do better drafting", that's a different discussion for a different thread.
A competent group should be able to do better in both directions. I'm not angry or disappointed by it, merely pointing out from a business competency standpoint, the end result ROI is below average and needs a lot of work. Those who fail to see the difference (usual suspects, not you, Dave) are not surprising.
Yup I’m one of them. You can go ahead and say it. I was always one of the OT a very very select few that said we’d have a busy offseason last spring (many here said we COULDN’T, let’s not BS anyone here) and also I said days before week 1 last year that the defense was going to exceed EVERYONE’s expectations.
Now I’m saying this team will be kept together if they are worthy of being kept together. The financials won’t hinder that. And I think they will be worthy. We can revisit that too.
You know who else agreed? John Mara when he fired the guys who did that poor drafting in January 2018.
The poor drafting then is why the new regime had available $ for UFA's the past 2-3 years - not as much the draft record of the new regime.
The Patriots spending spree this past offseason was an example of the same thing with a different organization. Their drafting was pretty bad from 2014-2019, and they compounded their errors by letting some of their best picks leave without drafting well enough to replace them.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
Just because I don’t condemn DG doesn’t mean I’m blind. I just don’t agree with the DG hot takes around here. I know what I’m watching.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
The lack of turnover in the scouting staff during DG's first two years was quite surprising to me. It sounds like he toggled how players are ranked, but the issue seemed to run much deeper.
I look at the Colts/Ravens 2018 drafts. Or even NYG's 2004 and 2005 (and 2007) drafts. Those are drafts that lead to contenders. We have not had one of those yet under DG.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
was there anyone credibly arguing that there weren't systemic failures that resulted in terrible drafts from basically 2011-2017? other than Marc Ross' parents?
my point isn't to withhold judgement from the current regime, just that they their judgement needs to be evaluated against the context of their situation. They spent money in FA because they did't have anyone to spend money on from the drafts. Enter Nate Solder, Leonard Williams, James Bradberry, Blake Martinez, Logan Ryan, Kenny Golladay, Adoree Jackson.
I didn't/don't agree with all of those signings but I'd disagree with calling any of those moves head scratchers. Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
This is it in a nutshell. DGs drafts will look fine IF Jones and Thomas are the goods. Barkley as well but I think ownership would give DG a pass if Bark just can’t get healthy as he’s clearly an NFL star talent.
It’s probably a little too simple but it does come down to Jones and the LT. DG can find talent in the middle rounds and he appears to have a good rapport with Judge. The QB usually sways the needle. It’s pretty much on Jones, but at least now there aren’t any excuses. He’s had time in the same system, etc.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
Well said. And while I've been fairly negative, there's more reason for optimism this year than any. Bluntly, I thought the people who thought we were going to get to ten wins in 2018-2020 were crazy. I can see a path there. A lot needs to break right (OL/Jones) and I certainly wouldn't bet on it - but I can at least see some potential good outcomes.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
Fair enough. I think 2020 can end up a productive bad year but 21 needs to validate things first. We shall see.
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if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
was there anyone credibly arguing that there weren't systemic failures that resulted in terrible drafts from basically 2011-2017? other than Marc Ross' parents?
my point isn't to withhold judgement from the current regime, just that they their judgement needs to be evaluated against the context of their situation. They spent money in FA because they did't have anyone to spend money on from the drafts. Enter Nate Solder, Leonard Williams, James Bradberry, Blake Martinez, Logan Ryan, Kenny Golladay, Adoree Jackson.
I didn't/don't agree with all of those signings but I'd disagree with calling any of those moves head scratchers. Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
I figured the context went without saying, it still points to backfilling poor draft picks. I'm not seeing where we disagree here ...
as opposed to the drafts 4-5+ years ago?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
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Getting bent over it one way or another is pointless in my view.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
What makes you say Abrams is good? I don't know how to properly analyze his performance but I see the assertion all the time.
Following the team for years I don't feel I've ever seen the salary cap as an obstacle. They're always utilizing the space without ever being "strapped". Anecdotally, this past offseason there were a lot of people claiming we were in cap trouble and wouldn't be able to do a thing. Most people here are always moving the goal posts though.
My biggest issue with DG has been using a significant percentage of Day 1 and Day 2 picks on DBs and still needing to fill 3 of 4 starting positions with free agent signings.
Lawrence and Barkly should be 2 of their better players on either side of the ball this year (and have been since being drafted when on the field).
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
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In comment 15358277 Chris684 said:
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Getting bent over it one way or another is pointless in my view.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
What makes you say Abrams is good? I don't know how to properly analyze his performance but I see the assertion all the time.
Following the team for years I don't feel I've ever seen the salary cap as an obstacle. They're always utilizing the space without ever being "strapped". Anecdotally, this past offseason there were a lot of people claiming we were in cap trouble and wouldn't be able to do a thing. Most people here are always moving the goal posts though.
Thanks for the response - I don't know the cap stuff well, so I've always been hesitant to really have a view. To your point, I didn't really understand how we were able to do what we did this off-season.
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Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
Lawrence and Barkly should be 2 of their better players on either side of the ball this year (and have been since being drafted when on the field).
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
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Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
it's hard for me to think of very many reasons for either to be worse this year than they were last year but on the flip side I think there are lots of reasons they could be better (better talent around them, better depth, 2nd year with this coaching staff, a full training camp/offseason, etc). but that's why they play the games as they say.
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Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
I am not in agreement with the above sentiments.
Headscratching is suggesting options were so scarce several years ago that making desperation-type player moves was a prudent path out of the abyss. As is supporting the drafting has gotten better (keeping in context of when they were drafting too) and free agency is getting more hits than misses, and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet.
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Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
it's hard for me to think of very many reasons for either to be worse this year than they were last year but on the flip side I think there are lots of reasons they could be better (better talent around them, better depth, 2nd year with this coaching staff, a full training camp/offseason, etc). but that's why they play the games as they say.
Agree here. The OL is probably the reason why they can be worse, but all other main areas should point to same or better...
Of course - but Jones rookie year he showed a lot. And his ball placement especially has stood out from day 1. Most of my concerns with Jones relate more to the offensive scheme around him than his abilities.
Thomas could just be what he is (and I just saw the other thread with Schwartz' comments which if true are very concerning).
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In comment 15358467 Jimmy Googs said:
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Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
I am not in agreement with the above sentiments.
Headscratching is suggesting options were so scarce several years ago that making desperation-type player moves was a prudent path out of the abyss. As is supporting the drafting has gotten better (keeping in context of when they were drafting too) and free agency is getting more hits than misses, and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet.
"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
Yes, on the rookie deal you need premium output. But with the minor structural advantage (comp picks) actually with letting players go, I never get hung up on signing drafted players IF you use the resources to sign better players.
All things equal I’m not losing sleep the Giants let Tomlinson go and signed Golladay for example.
That is all.
If you had to choose between a nice healthy cap OR acquiring the players we did this off-season, which would you choose? And don't say "they need to do better drafting", that's a different discussion for a different thread.//////
A competent group should be able to do better in both directions. I'm not angry or disappointed by it, merely pointing out from a business competency standpoint, the end result ROI is below average and needs a lot of work. Those who fail to see the difference (usual suspects, not you, Dave) are not surprising.
A point I believe not enough people are talking about, and which would turn this discussion of all the FAs signed as a good and necessary use of cap space upside down is that EACH and EVERY one of these marquis FAs comes with material risk/likelihood of not being on the field for 17 games: Golladay, Jackson, Rudolph, each has already nursed familiar injuries in camp. Jackson is the only one of the three to see some pre-season activity, and got dinged.
Beyond this, you have 4 of the first 5 picks in this draft class not even suiting up for a game in pre-season, and the 5th (and team's 2nd) having his time in pre-season 'managed' because of his injury history.
To me, none of this augurs positively.
"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
hence my inclusion of the word "yet"...
Was there something else?
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
They will focus on the draft and bring in tier1 and tier2 young cost control talent ... that will balance the cap and give the abililty groom and coach up ... The kicker is does Jones not make the step and we have to switch gears and use the draft capital to get a top pick @ QB (which will still be cost controlled)
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
Agreed. I think they are set up next year to use the draft to supplement talent. They will largely sit out FA, and recoup some comp picks for guys they let go
this we are in agreement on. I was much more confident in the 2020 offseason moves as soon as they happened than this years, though I do think this year's moves were worthy gambles. They are higher risk and higher reward - but with a 3rd year QB who could go either way I like the aggressiveness.
the strategy makes sense to give Jones every resource possible to succeed, and the fact that they were able to hedge with 2 firsts next year is even better. Worst case scenario they are QB shopping again and the new QB has some non-ideal veterans around him (like KG). But in reality most likely the roster would have to get largely retooled if they have to break in a new QB again any way.
(and of course none of that is to say plan A will work or that anyone in the current FO should be in the drivers seat for plan B - just that as plans go, they could each work out).
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"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
hence my inclusion of the word "yet"...
Was there something else?
I stand corrected, sorry.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
It's mathematically impossible to completely overhaul an NFL roster (ok, 52 out of 53) in that short a time, without a significant number of FA signings. If you assume 8 draft picks (including a comp, not including trades) per yr X 4 = 32. Even the most brilliant GM doesn't hit on nearly every pick. Don't know for sure, but would guess hitting on 3-4 per draft is pretty good. 3.5 x 4 = 14. That leaves roughly 39 players needed to overhaul (hopefully eventually improve) the roster via FA (including UDFAs).
A team like Cincy would do more bargain bin shopping in this situation. We're fortunate that the Giants have done some shopping in the high $ bin (Golladay, L. Williams, Martinez, Jackson, et al..). I'll let Abrams and co. worry about the cap.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
The team was in shambles prior to the current GM and then they made the mistake of trying to build around Eli. There were other bad moves but some of that was coach choices and the impact they may have had on personal moves. A year and a half ago nobody could have seen the cap dropping. Overall I think the team has moved forward over the last two years talent wise and I hope it translates to more wins this year in year 2 of the new coaching regime.
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Bottom line with resource allocation is winning. Winning always requires good top and middle shelf vets, and contribution from young players.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
The team was in shambles prior to the current GM and then they made the mistake of trying to build around Eli. There were other bad moves but some of that was coach choices and the impact they may have had on personal moves. A year and a half ago nobody could have seen the cap dropping. Overall I think the team has moved forward over the last two years talent wise and I hope it translates to more wins this year in year 2 of the new coaching regime.
Convenient paragraph to shift the blame for the last four years as best you can. At this point, it's on the guys that are still here so let's keep it real.
We all hope it translates to more wins this time...
I think it takes 3 years to evaluate a big overhaul, and I don’t get stuck on how/who/why. The failures were New York Giants failures. Coaching, draft picks, veteran acquisitions.
The big moves in 2018 all stunk. I’ll reserve judgement on the big 2020 moves until after next season. A lot can change between now and then, both good and bad.
You go into each season, and your wins and losses judge how well you put together your roster and staff. Until the Giants compete for a winning record , I’m not giving anyone much credit for anything.