More money matters: The #Giants converted $2.4 million of Leonard Williams’ salary into a bonus. It created $1.6M in cap space. They were tight against the cap entering this week.
with a starting QB on rookie contract and not being a contender caliber team is not a good sign.
we BARELY missed the playoffs last year and added
barkley, golladay, adoree jackson, and kyle rudolph.
say what you want but thats 4 talented football players added to this team. I think if we have those 4 last year we are absolutely a playoff team. You get in the dance and you never know.
this board is WAY down on the giants, but again....we barely missed playoffs last year with WAY less talent on offense specifically.
with a starting QB on rookie contract and not being a contender caliber team is not a good sign.
we BARELY missed the playoffs last year and added
barkley, golladay, adoree jackson, and kyle rudolph.
say what you want but thats 4 talented football players added to this team. I think if we have those 4 last year we are absolutely a playoff team. You get in the dance and you never know.
this board is WAY down on the giants, but again....we barely missed playoffs last year with WAY less talent on offense specifically.
We won six games last year. Six win teams have no business in the playoffs, we just happened to be in a historically shitty division. We were six back of any other division winner.
Team has to make a giant leap to be competitive with the other upper tier NFC teams. The division is like to be shitty again so that's a bonus but it doesn't mean we are ready to compete when it matters. All on Jones.
with a starting QB on rookie contract and not being a contender caliber team is not a good sign.
I’d disagree. This offseason was as good, if not maybe better, a one since the Plexico offseason We added solid talent all over the team. It was money well spent no matter the short term cap implications. And with the new TV contract it is short term.
If you look at who they are restructuring and who has the highest cap
The Giants are literally borrowing money from the future.
When you don’t know your future situation or needs, spending that money now might have consequences on a spectrum from minor (like these moves) to major.
I always say this — moves like this aren’t a tragedy, but they aren’t consequence free.
The Giants are literally borrowing money from the future.
When you don’t know your future situation or needs, spending that money now might have consequences on a spectrum from minor (like these moves) to major.
I always say this — moves like this aren’t a tragedy, but they aren’t consequence free.
I understand. I was not attempting to spin it as good. There has been a lot of back and forth about cap flexibility. The cap is flexible
RE: If you look at who they are restructuring and who has the highest cap
And some are even itching to somehow blast DG over this, but why can’t we dial it back 5-6 months to when the giants didn’t even have enough money or cap room to utilize UFA? Or do we just conveniently forget about that widely held belief around here. Go ahead and move on and forget it’s fine.
The giants aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary. It’s football business. Why are we angry again?
It’s literally being flexed and bent right before your eyes! And yes, this is all going to impact future moves, to some extent, that’s how it works. Would you prefer we go back and just never sign Williams? Or Bradbury in 2020? Or jackson?
It is what it is. The alternative is don’t sign those guys. Don’t build a team that on paper has talent. If this teams doesn’t win, like any other team or franchise, those players inevitably are purged or traded. That’s how it works. Want to win? You’re going to pay players. You’re going to move money around. Every team does it.
If you had to choose between a nice healthy cap OR acquiring the players we did this off-season, which would you choose? And don't say "they need to do better drafting", that's a different discussion for a different thread.
sam beal counting over 1M against this years cap. he should be making or be replaced by someone making the league minimum for what he brings to the table
booker is making 2.5M. he should be around the league minimum
riley dixon is making 2.9M. he should be about half that
evan engram should have been traded this offseason which would have saved them 6M against the cap.
they made bad decisions to get them here and now that they are here are compounding the problem by making more bad decisions because of the bad decisions that led them here
The giants have a shit load of players that are either starting or logging big snap counts that were in fact drafted over the last 3-4 years. I can rattle off about 12 players. That is good drafting. Now, some of these players (jones, Barkley, Thomas) need to have healthy and productive years to validate the pick, but I wouldn’t say the draft has been a let down lately. The jury is still out on some but many of these drafted players have shown serious staying power.
Everything hinges on this season but there are encouraging signs from 2020, notably the defense. If it carries over we might very well have a team with staying power.
The giants have a shit load of players that are either starting or logging big snap counts that were in fact drafted over the last 3-4 years. I can rattle off about 12 players. That is good drafting. Now, some of these players (jones, Barkley, Thomas) need to have healthy and productive years to validate the pick, but I wouldn’t say the draft has been a let down lately. The jury is still out on some but many of these drafted players have shown serious staying power.
Everything hinges on this season but there are encouraging signs from 2020, notably the defense. If it carries over we might very well have a team with staying power.
please do youself a favor and list out the draft picks under DG. when you're done with that exercise you cannot reach any other conclusion but the drafting under DG has been putrid at best
It is not really fair to compare the Giants 2021 cap to the 2020 record as the team was very active in free agency and spent considerable 2021 cash on new players. Would we be happier if we saved 2021 cap money and not signed Golladay, Jackson, Rudolph etc?
The giants have a shit load of players that are either starting or logging big snap counts that were in fact drafted over the last 3-4 years. I can rattle off about 12 players. That is good drafting. Now, some of these players (jones, Barkley, Thomas) need to have healthy and productive years to validate the pick, but I wouldn’t say the draft has been a let down lately. The jury is still out on some but many of these drafted players have shown serious staying power.
Everything hinges on this season but there are encouraging signs from 2020, notably the defense. If it carries over we might very well have a team with staying power.
please do youself a favor and list out the draft picks under DG. when you're done with that exercise you cannot reach any other conclusion but the drafting under DG has been putrid at best
Barkley is a good player
Hernandez is a starter (let’s see how he does this year but solid in 18)
Carter was a sensible pick. Need to see this season
Hill was a sensible pick and carried value
Lawrence is a damn good pick
Jones jury is out but sensible pick — need to see more
Baker was a bust
Love is a nice pick maybe even better
X man not bad by any means this year will tell us more
Last year’s draft needs this year to grow but everyone loves McKinney and nearly every rookie played last year. Talk to me after this season but it’s far from a debacle based on early returns.
Not to mention guys like Gates and more under the radar FAs.
This season needs to unfold, but you’re a little jumpy on the drafts.
with a starting QB on rookie contract and not being a contender caliber team is not a good sign.
Bingo
So what are you implying? That if jones blows up this year and goes 4300 total yards with 30 total tds and the giants win 10 games this team won’t be kept together due to cap issues? That they would sign jones and lose core talent? Wanna bet ?
You guys worry too much. The 2016 paying spree led to a two year bike from orbit phase and that does suck, but that only happened because the team fell apart, lack of leadership being the main catalyst. That doesn’t have to happen here this time around and likely won’t, and if it doesn’t, the giants will find a way to keep the core together.
Nope, a strong sign drafting isn't working to this point and they're spending via UFA to try and make up for it.
the players who are signed in FA replace draft picks that don't make it to 2nd contracts from the drafts 4-5 years prior. They didn't need to use the $ sign Leonard Williams because Dexter Lawrence was a bust, it was because they didn't have anyone worth signing to a second contract from the 14/15/16 drafts.
Nate Solder was signed in 2018 (and Zeitler added in 2019) because of the failed Ereck Flowers, Weston Richburg, and Justin Pugh picks in 13/14/15.
James Bradberry was signed in 2020 because of the failed Eli Apple pick in 2016.
Peppers and Ryan ended up here because Collins (15) and Thompson (16) aren't.
Paying Leonard Williams over Tomlinson was more of a choice than a replacement. Same with Golladay I suppose, though if OBJ were still here I doubt Golladay would be. Or if Evan Engram was the player they thought he'd be when they drafted him and someone they were preparing to give a big contract to.
Giants likely won’t be big spenders next offseason
barely missing the playoffs with said record is real empty consideration, imv.
we were in some very winnable games if we had half and offense is more the message there. we almost beat the current champs if it wasn't for a deflected INT. eagles game was off the fingers of engram. lots of 2-3 point games.
And some are even itching to somehow blast DG over this, but why can’t we dial it back 5-6 months to when the giants didn’t even have enough money or cap room to utilize UFA? Or do we just conveniently forget about that widely held belief around here. Go ahead and move on and forget it’s fine.
The giants aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary. It’s football business. Why are we angry again?
because our team has sucked for most of the past decade, and we're kinda over it.
Nope, a strong sign drafting isn't working to this point and they're spending via UFA to try and make up for it.
the players who are signed in FA replace draft picks that don't make it to 2nd contracts from the drafts 4-5 years prior. They didn't need to use the $ sign Leonard Williams because Dexter Lawrence was a bust, it was because they didn't have anyone worth signing to a second contract from the 14/15/16 drafts.
Nate Solder was signed in 2018 (and Zeitler added in 2019) because of the failed Ereck Flowers, Weston Richburg, and Justin Pugh picks in 13/14/15.
James Bradberry was signed in 2020 because of the failed Eli Apple pick in 2016.
Peppers and Ryan ended up here because Collins (15) and Thompson (16) aren't.
Paying Leonard Williams over Tomlinson was more of a choice than a replacement. Same with Golladay I suppose, though if OBJ were still here I doubt Golladay would be. Or if Evan Engram was the player they thought he'd be when they drafted him and someone they were preparing to give a big contract to.
Exactly. I’m sorry but using this restructure or front office offseason behavior as some sort of way to indict the last 3-4 drafts is just crazy to me. Like I said the jury might me out on some of the picks, but even conjuring up Barkley as one is kind of ridiculous. The guy is an all caliber pro talent.
We already got more out of the 18-21 drafts than we ever got out of 13-17. My god the mid rounds and undrafted FAs alone, from 18-21 blow away anything from 13-17.
That is absolutely correct. The moves made this year seemed generally positive, but it is hard to argue that they are patching holes to make up for very poor moves the last few years.
Let’s say 2016, we really only liked hankins, beckham and Collins. Apple was average at best his first year then sucked forever. Pugh was ok. We’re we’re holding out for dear life on those guys alone. No mid rounds with any hope at all unless I am missing someone, ok kennard.
Whatever we will see this year. Book isn’t finished yet.
Point is 18-21 has a chance here to help this team move forward here. Let’s see if. Just because 13-17 failed doesn’t mean these guys fail. There’s meat in these drafts I firmly believe it.
RE: Jackson was to patch the hole due to baker miss
Point is 18-21 has a chance here to help this team move forward here. Let’s see if. Just because 13-17 failed doesn’t mean these guys fail. There’s meat in these drafts I firmly believe it.
Not to mention, the Giants have 5 picks in the next 3 rounds next year, including 2 1sts. Things are looking up.
More Fans here would be hopeful about the future. I get the fear and skeptical takes but things are clearly looking up. The coffers aren’t bare anymore and the team has a cohesive plan. There’s leadership. Enjoy this season it won’t be dull. And it won’t be bad.
Good asset allocation is just one of many requirements to build a playoff team.
The danger with spending future money on current needs, is you don’t know what your future needs will be. You get the top shelf guys all right, and still miss out if you don’t get the middle tier guys right too.
It takes such precision to be good in a league where the resources are fixed, and the talent is so close.
The best outcome is to not have to resort to paying players more than you intended in any year, and that’s what kicking the can does.
It’s just one of many things the Giants have been bad at the last 7 years, and it’s something to watch.
I’m scared shitless lol. But I can’t shake the feeling that the giants team is solid. I keep going back to judge and the overall feel. I feel good even if nervous. I shudder to think what this place and overall climate will be if the giants crash n burn. We need a Renaissance here in a big way.
And some are even itching to somehow blast DG over this, but why can’t we dial it back 5-6 months to when the giants didn’t even have enough money or cap room to utilize UFA? Or do we just conveniently forget about that widely held belief around here. Go ahead and move on and forget it’s fine.
I assume you know no one who understands football well on this site ever felt that way.
It’s never a question of whether a team will have money to make moves — it’s whether they have to borrow future money and sacrifice other good players to make those moves.
The Giants made a number of moves to free up the cap space to sign those UFAs, and in doing so made concessions in other areas.
Whether those moves prove to be the right decisions are very much left to be determined.
If the Giants have a meaningful step back defensive and offensive line play next year — those moves deserve to be questioned.
If you had to choose between a nice healthy cap OR acquiring the players we did this off-season, which would you choose? And don't say "they need to do better drafting", that's a different discussion for a different thread.
A competent group should be able to do better in both directions. I'm not angry or disappointed by it, merely pointing out from a business competency standpoint, the end result ROI is below average and needs a lot of work. Those who fail to see the difference (usual suspects, not you, Dave) are not surprising.
players who got multi-year 2nd contracts drafted by NYG in the 6 drafts from 12-17
2 here (OBJ, Shep)
6 elsewhere (Pugh, Richburg, Kennard, Collins, Hart, Tomlinson)
(aka why Marc Ross went pro in something other than GM'ing)
by contrast, here's how the 2 drafts from 18-19 look right now:
1 already extended (gates udfa)
2 will likely extend health permitting (Barkley, Lawrence)
6 on the fence (Hernandez, Carter, Jones, Ximines, Love, Slayton)
(7 if you count beal but he's way more on the fence than the others)
in case you needed any more reason to believe this is a pretty pivotal year for determining whether or not this regime's key draft decisions were good enough.
If you had to choose between a nice healthy cap OR acquiring the players we did this off-season, which would you choose? And don't say "they need to do better drafting", that's a different discussion for a different thread.
A competent group should be able to do better in both directions. I'm not angry or disappointed by it, merely pointing out from a business competency standpoint, the end result ROI is below average and needs a lot of work. Those who fail to see the difference (usual suspects, not you, Dave) are not surprising.
Yup I’m one of them. You can go ahead and say it. I was always one of the OT a very very select few that said we’d have a busy offseason last spring (many here said we COULDN’T, let’s not BS anyone here) and also I said days before week 1 last year that the defense was going to exceed EVERYONE’s expectations.
Now I’m saying this team will be kept together if they are worthy of being kept together. The financials won’t hinder that. And I think they will be worthy. We can revisit that too.
You basically agreed with re: drafting unless I'm missing your point. Good examples of poor drafting.
You know who else agreed? John Mara when he fired the guys who did that poor drafting in January 2018.
The poor drafting then is why the new regime had available $ for UFA's the past 2-3 years - not as much the draft record of the new regime.
The Patriots spending spree this past offseason was an example of the same thing with a different organization. Their drafting was pretty bad from 2014-2019, and they compounded their errors by letting some of their best picks leave without drafting well enough to replace them.
if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
This so called blind loyalist predicted 7-9 last year and said the offense would mightily struggle, especially early on but the D would forge an identity in 2020. That’s not a take a blind fan comes up with.
Just because I don’t condemn DG doesn’t mean I’m blind. I just don’t agree with the DG hot takes around here. I know what I’m watching.
6-10. They almost lost to the Bengals while pushing the Bucs in defeat. That's what bad teams do, find ways to lose.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
The lack of turnover in the scouting staff during DG's first two years was quite surprising to me. It sounds like he toggled how players are ranked, but the issue seemed to run much deeper.
I look at the Colts/Ravens 2018 drafts. Or even NYG's 2004 and 2005 (and 2007) drafts. Those are drafts that lead to contenders. We have not had one of those yet under DG.
Jon re: the bold isn't this basically established fact already?
if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
was there anyone credibly arguing that there weren't systemic failures that resulted in terrible drafts from basically 2011-2017? other than Marc Ross' parents?
my point isn't to withhold judgement from the current regime, just that they their judgement needs to be evaluated against the context of their situation. They spent money in FA because they did't have anyone to spend money on from the drafts. Enter Nate Solder, Leonard Williams, James Bradberry, Blake Martinez, Logan Ryan, Kenny Golladay, Adoree Jackson.
I didn't/don't agree with all of those signings but I'd disagree with calling any of those moves head scratchers. Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
This is it in a nutshell. DGs drafts will look fine IF Jones and Thomas are the goods. Barkley as well but I think ownership would give DG a pass if Bark just can’t get healthy as he’s clearly an NFL star talent.
It’s probably a little too simple but it does come down to Jones and the LT. DG can find talent in the middle rounds and he appears to have a good rapport with Judge. The QB usually sways the needle. It’s pretty much on Jones, but at least now there aren’t any excuses. He’s had time in the same system, etc.
6-10. They almost lost to the Bengals while pushing the Bucs in defeat. That's what bad teams do, find ways to lose.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
Well said. And while I've been fairly negative, there's more reason for optimism this year than any. Bluntly, I thought the people who thought we were going to get to ten wins in 2018-2020 were crazy. I can see a path there. A lot needs to break right (OL/Jones) and I certainly wouldn't bet on it - but I can at least see some potential good outcomes.
6-10. They almost lost to the Bengals while pushing the Bucs in defeat. That's what bad teams do, find ways to lose.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
Fair enough. I think 2020 can end up a productive bad year but 21 needs to validate things first. We shall see.
RE: Jon re: the bold isn't this basically established fact already?
if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
was there anyone credibly arguing that there weren't systemic failures that resulted in terrible drafts from basically 2011-2017? other than Marc Ross' parents?
my point isn't to withhold judgement from the current regime, just that they their judgement needs to be evaluated against the context of their situation. They spent money in FA because they did't have anyone to spend money on from the drafts. Enter Nate Solder, Leonard Williams, James Bradberry, Blake Martinez, Logan Ryan, Kenny Golladay, Adoree Jackson.
I didn't/don't agree with all of those signings but I'd disagree with calling any of those moves head scratchers. Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
I figured the context went without saying, it still points to backfilling poor draft picks. I'm not seeing where we disagree here ...
Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
Yes, I don't think drafting under DG is proving to be very successful
Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
RE: Yes, I don't think drafting under DG is proving to be very successful
Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
I feel the same way. Still time to turn a corner, but the lack of production from his first round investments to date is a concern. DG has had 6 first round selections, including a 2, and 4, and a 6. Time to see the returns on all that.
RE: RE: Teams with the most cap space in the NFL are often lousy
Getting bent over it one way or another is pointless in my view.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
What makes you say Abrams is good? I don't know how to properly analyze his performance but I see the assertion all the time.
Following the team for years I don't feel I've ever seen the salary cap as an obstacle. They're always utilizing the space without ever being "strapped". Anecdotally, this past offseason there were a lot of people claiming we were in cap trouble and wouldn't be able to do a thing. Most people here are always moving the goal posts though.
RE: Yes, I don't think drafting under DG is proving to be very successful
Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
My biggest issue with DG has been using a significant percentage of Day 1 and Day 2 picks on DBs and still needing to fill 3 of 4 starting positions with free agent signings.
RE: Yes, I don't think drafting under DG is proving to be very successful
Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
Lawrence and Barkly should be 2 of their better players on either side of the ball this year (and have been since being drafted when on the field).
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
RE: RE: RE: Teams with the most cap space in the NFL are often lousy
Getting bent over it one way or another is pointless in my view.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
What makes you say Abrams is good? I don't know how to properly analyze his performance but I see the assertion all the time.
Following the team for years I don't feel I've ever seen the salary cap as an obstacle. They're always utilizing the space without ever being "strapped". Anecdotally, this past offseason there were a lot of people claiming we were in cap trouble and wouldn't be able to do a thing. Most people here are always moving the goal posts though.
Thanks for the response - I don't know the cap stuff well, so I've always been hesitant to really have a view. To your point, I didn't really understand how we were able to do what we did this off-season.
RE: RE: Yes, I don't think drafting under DG is proving to be very successful
Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
Lawrence and Barkly should be 2 of their better players on either side of the ball this year (and have been since being drafted when on the field).
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
it's hard for me to think of very many reasons for either to be worse this year than they were last year but on the flip side I think there are lots of reasons they could be better (better talent around them, better depth, 2nd year with this coaching staff, a full training camp/offseason, etc). but that's why they play the games as they say.
it happens more often than not, it's why the draft is such a crapshoot. Especially when you spend top six picks on players who imv were not elite prospects in Jones and Thomas. In two days we will begin to learn more and I'm fired up for it.
Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
I am not in agreement with the above sentiments.
Headscratching is suggesting options were so scarce several years ago that making desperation-type player moves was a prudent path out of the abyss. As is supporting the drafting has gotten better (keeping in context of when they were drafting too) and free agency is getting more hits than misses, and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet.
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
it's hard for me to think of very many reasons for either to be worse this year than they were last year but on the flip side I think there are lots of reasons they could be better (better talent around them, better depth, 2nd year with this coaching staff, a full training camp/offseason, etc). but that's why they play the games as they say.
Agree here. The OL is probably the reason why they can be worse, but all other main areas should point to same or better...
it happens more often than not, it's why the draft is such a crapshoot. Especially when you spend top six picks on players who imv were not elite prospects in Jones and Thomas. In two days we will begin to learn more and I'm fired up for it.
Of course - but Jones rookie year he showed a lot. And his ball placement especially has stood out from day 1. Most of my concerns with Jones relate more to the offensive scheme around him than his abilities.
Thomas could just be what he is (and I just saw the other thread with Schwartz' comments which if true are very concerning).
Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
I am not in agreement with the above sentiments.
Headscratching is suggesting options were so scarce several years ago that making desperation-type player moves was a prudent path out of the abyss. As is supporting the drafting has gotten better (keeping in context of when they were drafting too) and free agency is getting more hits than misses, and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet.
"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
Giants are prepared to NOT be active in free agency in 2022.
I think that they think that they have built a team (at least on the defensive side) that they can go with for at least the next 2-3 seasons. Offense is still shaky because of the o-line and everyone there needs to step up but I think next year’s draft will be used to create needed future starter development and depth. The 2021 draft class should be very deep and the cap will rise.
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
Eric, Jon — I have a mildly different take on the signing drafted players.
Yes, on the rookie deal you need premium output. But with the minor structural advantage (comp picks) actually with letting players go, I never get hung up on signing drafted players IF you use the resources to sign better players.
All things equal I’m not losing sleep the Giants let Tomlinson go and signed Golladay for example.
In comment 15358300 Dave on the UWS said: Quote:
If you had to choose between a nice healthy cap OR acquiring the players we did this off-season, which would you choose? And don't say "they need to do better drafting", that's a different discussion for a different thread.//////
A competent group should be able to do better in both directions. I'm not angry or disappointed by it, merely pointing out from a business competency standpoint, the end result ROI is below average and needs a lot of work. Those who fail to see the difference (usual suspects, not you, Dave) are not surprising.
A point I believe not enough people are talking about, and which would turn this discussion of all the FAs signed as a good and necessary use of cap space upside down is that EACH and EVERY one of these marquis FAs comes with material risk/likelihood of not being on the field for 17 games: Golladay, Jackson, Rudolph, each has already nursed familiar injuries in camp. Jackson is the only one of the three to see some pre-season activity, and got dinged.
Beyond this, you have 4 of the first 5 picks in this draft class not even suiting up for a game in pre-season, and the 5th (and team's 2nd) having his time in pre-season 'managed' because of his injury history.
Yep, it's why I wasn't thrilled with signing KG or Jackson. They're both highly effective NFL players at times, but both came with questions including injuries. I knew they wanted KG badly, he was no surprise they were willing to gamble on him. Jackson was a surprise to me.
"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
hence my inclusion of the word "yet"...
Was there something else?
RE: Giants are prepared to NOT be active in free agency in 2022.
I think that they think that they have built a team (at least on the defensive side) that they can go with for at least the next 2-3 seasons. Offense is still shaky because of the o-line and everyone there needs to step up but I think next year’s draft will be used to create needed future starter development and depth. The 2021 draft class should be very deep and the cap will rise.
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
They will focus on the draft and bring in tier1 and tier2 young cost control talent ... that will balance the cap and give the abililty groom and coach up ... The kicker is does Jones not make the step and we have to switch gears and use the draft capital to get a top pick @ QB (which will still be cost controlled)
RE: Giants are prepared to NOT be active in free agency in 2022.
I think that they think that they have built a team (at least on the defensive side) that they can go with for at least the next 2-3 seasons. Offense is still shaky because of the o-line and everyone there needs to step up but I think next year’s draft will be used to create needed future starter development and depth. The 2021 draft class should be very deep and the cap will rise.
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
Agreed. I think they are set up next year to use the draft to supplement talent. They will largely sit out FA, and recoup some comp picks for guys they let go
Yep, it's why I wasn't thrilled with signing KG or Jackson. They're both highly effective NFL players at times, but both came with questions including injuries. I knew they wanted KG badly, he was no surprise they were willing to gamble on him. Jackson was a surprise to me.
this we are in agreement on. I was much more confident in the 2020 offseason moves as soon as they happened than this years, though I do think this year's moves were worthy gambles. They are higher risk and higher reward - but with a 3rd year QB who could go either way I like the aggressiveness.
the strategy makes sense to give Jones every resource possible to succeed, and the fact that they were able to hedge with 2 firsts next year is even better. Worst case scenario they are QB shopping again and the new QB has some non-ideal veterans around him (like KG). But in reality most likely the roster would have to get largely retooled if they have to break in a new QB again any way.
(and of course none of that is to say plan A will work or that anyone in the current FO should be in the drivers seat for plan B - just that as plans go, they could each work out).
"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
Bottom line with resource allocation is winning. Winning always requires good top and middle shelf vets, and contribution from young players.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
They only have ONE player drafted by the team prior to '18. I don't know for sure, but my guess is we're the only team in the league in that situation (not totally, but largely due to the failure of prior GM and staff).
It's mathematically impossible to completely overhaul an NFL roster (ok, 52 out of 53) in that short a time, without a significant number of FA signings. If you assume 8 draft picks (including a comp, not including trades) per yr X 4 = 32. Even the most brilliant GM doesn't hit on nearly every pick. Don't know for sure, but would guess hitting on 3-4 per draft is pretty good. 3.5 x 4 = 14. That leaves roughly 39 players needed to overhaul (hopefully eventually improve) the roster via FA (including UDFAs).
A team like Cincy would do more bargain bin shopping in this situation. We're fortunate that the Giants have done some shopping in the high $ bin (Golladay, L. Williams, Martinez, Jackson, et al..). I'll let Abrams and co. worry about the cap.
Bottom line with resource allocation is winning. Winning always requires good top and middle shelf vets, and contribution from young players.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
The team was in shambles prior to the current GM and then they made the mistake of trying to build around Eli. There were other bad moves but some of that was coach choices and the impact they may have had on personal moves. A year and a half ago nobody could have seen the cap dropping. Overall I think the team has moved forward over the last two years talent wise and I hope it translates to more wins this year in year 2 of the new coaching regime.
Bottom line with resource allocation is winning. Winning always requires good top and middle shelf vets, and contribution from young players.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
The team was in shambles prior to the current GM and then they made the mistake of trying to build around Eli. There were other bad moves but some of that was coach choices and the impact they may have had on personal moves. A year and a half ago nobody could have seen the cap dropping. Overall I think the team has moved forward over the last two years talent wise and I hope it translates to more wins this year in year 2 of the new coaching regime.
Convenient paragraph to shift the blame for the last four years as best you can. At this point, it's on the guys that are still here so let's keep it real.
We all hope it translates to more wins this time...
The team was in shambles prior to the current GM and then they made the mistake of trying to build around Eli. There were other bad moves but some of that was coach choices and the impact they may have had on personal moves. A year and a half ago nobody could have seen the cap dropping. Overall I think the team has moved forward over the last two years talent wise and I hope it translates to more wins this year in year 2 of the new coaching regime.
I think it takes 3 years to evaluate a big overhaul, and I don’t get stuck on how/who/why. The failures were New York Giants failures. Coaching, draft picks, veteran acquisitions.
The big moves in 2018 all stunk. I’ll reserve judgement on the big 2020 moves until after next season. A lot can change between now and then, both good and bad.
You go into each season, and your wins and losses judge how well you put together your roster and staff. Until the Giants compete for a winning record , I’m not giving anyone much credit for anything.
always have cap issues.
always have cap issues.
yep, the cap is fluid...
It's got to be a few at least...
It's all the money they keep pouring into the offensive line.
we BARELY missed the playoffs last year and added
barkley, golladay, adoree jackson, and kyle rudolph.
say what you want but thats 4 talented football players added to this team. I think if we have those 4 last year we are absolutely a playoff team. You get in the dance and you never know.
this board is WAY down on the giants, but again....we barely missed playoffs last year with WAY less talent on offense specifically.
The cap is goingnto keep going uo, every team in the league is doing this
With a 17 game season, teams will need at least 3-4 million in space for future signings.
Right now, according to ATC, the Giants have 3.4 million in space. No idea if it includes this restructure, but I would guess that it does.
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with a starting QB on rookie contract and not being a contender caliber team is not a good sign.
It's all the money they keep pouring into the offensive line.
Money well spent...
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with a starting QB on rookie contract and not being a contender caliber team is not a good sign.
we BARELY missed the playoffs last year and added
barkley, golladay, adoree jackson, and kyle rudolph.
say what you want but thats 4 talented football players added to this team. I think if we have those 4 last year we are absolutely a playoff team. You get in the dance and you never know.
this board is WAY down on the giants, but again....we barely missed playoffs last year with WAY less talent on offense specifically.
We won six games last year. Six win teams have no business in the playoffs, we just happened to be in a historically shitty division. We were six back of any other division winner.
Team has to make a giant leap to be competitive with the other upper tier NFC teams. The division is like to be shitty again so that's a bonus but it doesn't mean we are ready to compete when it matters. All on Jones.
I’d disagree. This offseason was as good, if not maybe better, a one since the Plexico offseason We added solid talent all over the team. It was money well spent no matter the short term cap implications. And with the new TV contract it is short term.
MAYBE Jackson.
Otherwise, it is the core / best players on the team.
That’s not by definition always good.
The Giants are literally borrowing money from the future.
When you don’t know your future situation or needs, spending that money now might have consequences on a spectrum from minor (like these moves) to major.
I always say this — moves like this aren’t a tragedy, but they aren’t consequence free.
I have to agree. I don't understand the whole "the Giants are always good with the cap" posts. They always seem to have a lot of dead money.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
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To an extent which is where some say it is fluid.
That’s not by definition always good.
The Giants are literally borrowing money from the future.
When you don’t know your future situation or needs, spending that money now might have consequences on a spectrum from minor (like these moves) to major.
I always say this — moves like this aren’t a tragedy, but they aren’t consequence free.
I understand. I was not attempting to spin it as good. There has been a lot of back and forth about cap flexibility. The cap is flexible
MAYBE Jackson.
Otherwise, it is the core / best players on the team.
i would not consider shep to be in that group of core / best players on the team
The giants aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary. It’s football business. Why are we angry again?
Indeed. I have to roll my eyes whenever anyone starts beating the drum about almost winning the worst division in recent NFL history.
most yards in any season - 872
most touchdowns in any season - 8
only played in 16 games in 2 out of 5 seasons
not the guy you want to invest in and be locked into under any circumstance. i cannot understand why people think he's good
It is what it is. The alternative is don’t sign those guys. Don’t build a team that on paper has talent. If this teams doesn’t win, like any other team or franchise, those players inevitably are purged or traded. That’s how it works. Want to win? You’re going to pay players. You’re going to move money around. Every team does it.
For the N.O. 2nd and our 2030 7th?
booker is making 2.5M. he should be around the league minimum
riley dixon is making 2.9M. he should be about half that
evan engram should have been traded this offseason which would have saved them 6M against the cap.
they made bad decisions to get them here and now that they are here are compounding the problem by making more bad decisions because of the bad decisions that led them here
Everything hinges on this season but there are encouraging signs from 2020, notably the defense. If it carries over we might very well have a team with staying power.
Everything hinges on this season but there are encouraging signs from 2020, notably the defense. If it carries over we might very well have a team with staying power.
please do youself a favor and list out the draft picks under DG. when you're done with that exercise you cannot reach any other conclusion but the drafting under DG has been putrid at best
Bingo
And these are being done because they had to...
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The giants have a shit load of players that are either starting or logging big snap counts that were in fact drafted over the last 3-4 years. I can rattle off about 12 players. That is good drafting. Now, some of these players (jones, Barkley, Thomas) need to have healthy and productive years to validate the pick, but I wouldn’t say the draft has been a let down lately. The jury is still out on some but many of these drafted players have shown serious staying power.
Everything hinges on this season but there are encouraging signs from 2020, notably the defense. If it carries over we might very well have a team with staying power.
please do youself a favor and list out the draft picks under DG. when you're done with that exercise you cannot reach any other conclusion but the drafting under DG has been putrid at best
Barkley is a good player
Hernandez is a starter (let’s see how he does this year but solid in 18)
Carter was a sensible pick. Need to see this season
Hill was a sensible pick and carried value
Lawrence is a damn good pick
Jones jury is out but sensible pick — need to see more
Baker was a bust
Love is a nice pick maybe even better
X man not bad by any means this year will tell us more
Last year’s draft needs this year to grow but everyone loves McKinney and nearly every rookie played last year. Talk to me after this season but it’s far from a debacle based on early returns.
Not to mention guys like Gates and more under the radar FAs.
This season needs to unfold, but you’re a little jumpy on the drafts.
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with a starting QB on rookie contract and not being a contender caliber team is not a good sign.
Bingo
So what are you implying? That if jones blows up this year and goes 4300 total yards with 30 total tds and the giants win 10 games this team won’t be kept together due to cap issues? That they would sign jones and lose core talent? Wanna bet ?
You guys worry too much. The 2016 paying spree led to a two year bike from orbit phase and that does suck, but that only happened because the team fell apart, lack of leadership being the main catalyst. That doesn’t have to happen here this time around and likely won’t, and if it doesn’t, the giants will find a way to keep the core together.
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with a starting QB on rookie contract and not being a contender caliber team is not a good sign.
Bingo
+2.
the players who are signed in FA replace draft picks that don't make it to 2nd contracts from the drafts 4-5 years prior. They didn't need to use the $ sign Leonard Williams because Dexter Lawrence was a bust, it was because they didn't have anyone worth signing to a second contract from the 14/15/16 drafts.
Nate Solder was signed in 2018 (and Zeitler added in 2019) because of the failed Ereck Flowers, Weston Richburg, and Justin Pugh picks in 13/14/15.
James Bradberry was signed in 2020 because of the failed Eli Apple pick in 2016.
Peppers and Ryan ended up here because Collins (15) and Thompson (16) aren't.
Paying Leonard Williams over Tomlinson was more of a choice than a replacement. Same with Golladay I suppose, though if OBJ were still here I doubt Golladay would be. Or if Evan Engram was the player they thought he'd be when they drafted him and someone they were preparing to give a big contract to.
This team has its budget near max but there’s little to no dead weight. Time to put it all together.
we were in some very winnable games if we had half and offense is more the message there. we almost beat the current champs if it wasn't for a deflected INT. eagles game was off the fingers of engram. lots of 2-3 point games.
The giants aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary. It’s football business. Why are we angry again?
because our team has sucked for most of the past decade, and we're kinda over it.
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Nope, a strong sign drafting isn't working to this point and they're spending via UFA to try and make up for it.
the players who are signed in FA replace draft picks that don't make it to 2nd contracts from the drafts 4-5 years prior. They didn't need to use the $ sign Leonard Williams because Dexter Lawrence was a bust, it was because they didn't have anyone worth signing to a second contract from the 14/15/16 drafts.
Nate Solder was signed in 2018 (and Zeitler added in 2019) because of the failed Ereck Flowers, Weston Richburg, and Justin Pugh picks in 13/14/15.
James Bradberry was signed in 2020 because of the failed Eli Apple pick in 2016.
Peppers and Ryan ended up here because Collins (15) and Thompson (16) aren't.
Paying Leonard Williams over Tomlinson was more of a choice than a replacement. Same with Golladay I suppose, though if OBJ were still here I doubt Golladay would be. Or if Evan Engram was the player they thought he'd be when they drafted him and someone they were preparing to give a big contract to.
Exactly. I’m sorry but using this restructure or front office offseason behavior as some sort of way to indict the last 3-4 drafts is just crazy to me. Like I said the jury might me out on some of the picks, but even conjuring up Barkley as one is kind of ridiculous. The guy is an all caliber pro talent.
We already got more out of the 18-21 drafts than we ever got out of 13-17. My god the mid rounds and undrafted FAs alone, from 18-21 blow away anything from 13-17.
That is absolutely correct. The moves made this year seemed generally positive, but it is hard to argue that they are patching holes to make up for very poor moves the last few years.
Whatever we will see this year. Book isn’t finished yet.
Not to mention, the Giants have 5 picks in the next 3 rounds next year, including 2 1sts. Things are looking up.
The danger with spending future money on current needs, is you don’t know what your future needs will be. You get the top shelf guys all right, and still miss out if you don’t get the middle tier guys right too.
It takes such precision to be good in a league where the resources are fixed, and the talent is so close.
The best outcome is to not have to resort to paying players more than you intended in any year, and that’s what kicking the can does.
It’s just one of many things the Giants have been bad at the last 7 years, and it’s something to watch.
I assume you know no one who understands football well on this site ever felt that way.
It’s never a question of whether a team will have money to make moves — it’s whether they have to borrow future money and sacrifice other good players to make those moves.
The Giants made a number of moves to free up the cap space to sign those UFAs, and in doing so made concessions in other areas.
Whether those moves prove to be the right decisions are very much left to be determined.
If the Giants have a meaningful step back defensive and offensive line play next year — those moves deserve to be questioned.
A competent group should be able to do better in both directions. I'm not angry or disappointed by it, merely pointing out from a business competency standpoint, the end result ROI is below average and needs a lot of work. Those who fail to see the difference (usual suspects, not you, Dave) are not surprising.
2 here (OBJ, Shep)
6 elsewhere (Pugh, Richburg, Kennard, Collins, Hart, Tomlinson)
(aka why Marc Ross went pro in something other than GM'ing)
by contrast, here's how the 2 drafts from 18-19 look right now:
1 already extended (gates udfa)
2 will likely extend health permitting (Barkley, Lawrence)
6 on the fence (Hernandez, Carter, Jones, Ximines, Love, Slayton)
(7 if you count beal but he's way more on the fence than the others)
in case you needed any more reason to believe this is a pretty pivotal year for determining whether or not this regime's key draft decisions were good enough.
The giants aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary. It’s football business. Why are we angry again?
Right? Why look a gift horse in the mouth? This is working, the proof is in the pudding.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
What makes you say Abrams is good? I don't know how to properly analyze his performance but I see the assertion all the time.
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If you had to choose between a nice healthy cap OR acquiring the players we did this off-season, which would you choose? And don't say "they need to do better drafting", that's a different discussion for a different thread.
A competent group should be able to do better in both directions. I'm not angry or disappointed by it, merely pointing out from a business competency standpoint, the end result ROI is below average and needs a lot of work. Those who fail to see the difference (usual suspects, not you, Dave) are not surprising.
Yup I’m one of them. You can go ahead and say it. I was always one of the OT a very very select few that said we’d have a busy offseason last spring (many here said we COULDN’T, let’s not BS anyone here) and also I said days before week 1 last year that the defense was going to exceed EVERYONE’s expectations.
Now I’m saying this team will be kept together if they are worthy of being kept together. The financials won’t hinder that. And I think they will be worthy. We can revisit that too.
You know who else agreed? John Mara when he fired the guys who did that poor drafting in January 2018.
The poor drafting then is why the new regime had available $ for UFA's the past 2-3 years - not as much the draft record of the new regime.
The Patriots spending spree this past offseason was an example of the same thing with a different organization. Their drafting was pretty bad from 2014-2019, and they compounded their errors by letting some of their best picks leave without drafting well enough to replace them.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
Just because I don’t condemn DG doesn’t mean I’m blind. I just don’t agree with the DG hot takes around here. I know what I’m watching.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
The lack of turnover in the scouting staff during DG's first two years was quite surprising to me. It sounds like he toggled how players are ranked, but the issue seemed to run much deeper.
I look at the Colts/Ravens 2018 drafts. Or even NYG's 2004 and 2005 (and 2007) drafts. Those are drafts that lead to contenders. We have not had one of those yet under DG.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
was there anyone credibly arguing that there weren't systemic failures that resulted in terrible drafts from basically 2011-2017? other than Marc Ross' parents?
my point isn't to withhold judgement from the current regime, just that they their judgement needs to be evaluated against the context of their situation. They spent money in FA because they did't have anyone to spend money on from the drafts. Enter Nate Solder, Leonard Williams, James Bradberry, Blake Martinez, Logan Ryan, Kenny Golladay, Adoree Jackson.
I didn't/don't agree with all of those signings but I'd disagree with calling any of those moves head scratchers. Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
This is it in a nutshell. DGs drafts will look fine IF Jones and Thomas are the goods. Barkley as well but I think ownership would give DG a pass if Bark just can’t get healthy as he’s clearly an NFL star talent.
It’s probably a little too simple but it does come down to Jones and the LT. DG can find talent in the middle rounds and he appears to have a good rapport with Judge. The QB usually sways the needle. It’s pretty much on Jones, but at least now there aren’t any excuses. He’s had time in the same system, etc.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
Well said. And while I've been fairly negative, there's more reason for optimism this year than any. Bluntly, I thought the people who thought we were going to get to ten wins in 2018-2020 were crazy. I can see a path there. A lot needs to break right (OL/Jones) and I certainly wouldn't bet on it - but I can at least see some potential good outcomes.
Until that six increases it's a lot of IFs, BUTs, and optimism. I want results. It's been a decade of really poor management.
It's fine if others don't agree, I'm not here to smash their hopes or be the bad guy. We all want the Giants to start winning. But, there's plenty of visible shit that hasn't changed much yet on the field.
Let's hope 2021 is a reversal of fortune, and that it begins on Sunday.
Fair enough. I think 2020 can end up a productive bad year but 21 needs to validate things first. We shall see.
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if your point is it's still early to judge DG's drafts, I could understand the view it's still perhaps a bit early to definitively make one. But, my point was rather to the systemic failures going back a decade or more. Hell, they were drafting poorly even leading up to the 2011 title run, eg, the OL disintegrating before our eyes. There are aspects to the current regime's personnel decision that are really head-scratchers tho, and it's showing up on the field.
NYG needs SB, Jones, and Thomas to step up big and do it fast. They're the linchpins of success for the immediate future, or there will be changes. There will be changes regardless, because no team hits on every draft pick or UFA decision, of course.
was there anyone credibly arguing that there weren't systemic failures that resulted in terrible drafts from basically 2011-2017? other than Marc Ross' parents?
my point isn't to withhold judgement from the current regime, just that they their judgement needs to be evaluated against the context of their situation. They spent money in FA because they did't have anyone to spend money on from the drafts. Enter Nate Solder, Leonard Williams, James Bradberry, Blake Martinez, Logan Ryan, Kenny Golladay, Adoree Jackson.
I didn't/don't agree with all of those signings but I'd disagree with calling any of those moves head scratchers. Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
I figured the context went without saying, it still points to backfilling poor draft picks. I'm not seeing where we disagree here ...
as opposed to the drafts 4-5+ years ago?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
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Getting bent over it one way or another is pointless in my view.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
What makes you say Abrams is good? I don't know how to properly analyze his performance but I see the assertion all the time.
Following the team for years I don't feel I've ever seen the salary cap as an obstacle. They're always utilizing the space without ever being "strapped". Anecdotally, this past offseason there were a lot of people claiming we were in cap trouble and wouldn't be able to do a thing. Most people here are always moving the goal posts though.
My biggest issue with DG has been using a significant percentage of Day 1 and Day 2 picks on DBs and still needing to fill 3 of 4 starting positions with free agent signings.
Lawrence and Barkly should be 2 of their better players on either side of the ball this year (and have been since being drafted when on the field).
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
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In comment 15358277 Chris684 said:
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Getting bent over it one way or another is pointless in my view.
Kevin Abrams is good at what he does.
What makes you say Abrams is good? I don't know how to properly analyze his performance but I see the assertion all the time.
Following the team for years I don't feel I've ever seen the salary cap as an obstacle. They're always utilizing the space without ever being "strapped". Anecdotally, this past offseason there were a lot of people claiming we were in cap trouble and wouldn't be able to do a thing. Most people here are always moving the goal posts though.
Thanks for the response - I don't know the cap stuff well, so I've always been hesitant to really have a view. To your point, I didn't really understand how we were able to do what we did this off-season.
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Some could turn the corner and surprise us, and hope they do. But, a good example is ROI on their first round picks is pretty bad to this point, and I'm straining to find signs otherwise based on what I see out there. Optimism alone doesn't work for me, MMV for others.
Lawrence and Barkly should be 2 of their better players on either side of the ball this year (and have been since being drafted when on the field).
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
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Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
it's hard for me to think of very many reasons for either to be worse this year than they were last year but on the flip side I think there are lots of reasons they could be better (better talent around them, better depth, 2nd year with this coaching staff, a full training camp/offseason, etc). but that's why they play the games as they say.
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Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
I am not in agreement with the above sentiments.
Headscratching is suggesting options were so scarce several years ago that making desperation-type player moves was a prudent path out of the abyss. As is supporting the drafting has gotten better (keeping in context of when they were drafting too) and free agency is getting more hits than misses, and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet.
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Jones and Thomas are in position to either be the reason the team succeeds this year or the reason it doesn't. Like a lot of other high draft picks in prominent positions going into their 2nd/3rd years (especially QBs). We've seen them both play well before. If we see it more consistently this year it won't take much straining to see good ROI from their selections. Honest question do you think the odds are worse than a coin flip for either player having a good year?
Yes I actually do. The bad habits of both players tend to be very difficult to permanently fix at this level with live bullets flying, especially those of Jones. I want to be wrong! And it's time for them to start doing it or let's move on, because I'm not detecting the special qualities required.
it's hard for me to think of very many reasons for either to be worse this year than they were last year but on the flip side I think there are lots of reasons they could be better (better talent around them, better depth, 2nd year with this coaching staff, a full training camp/offseason, etc). but that's why they play the games as they say.
Agree here. The OL is probably the reason why they can be worse, but all other main areas should point to same or better...
Of course - but Jones rookie year he showed a lot. And his ball placement especially has stood out from day 1. Most of my concerns with Jones relate more to the offensive scheme around him than his abilities.
Thomas could just be what he is (and I just saw the other thread with Schwartz' comments which if true are very concerning).
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In comment 15358467 Jimmy Googs said:
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Solder turned out to be a complete bust but was anyone arguing at the time that they didn't need to invest in the OL and a competent left tackle?
Seeing a big hole in the roster and writing the biggest paycheck in history for an Olineman that was 1) no where close to that type of value based on his play & age and 2) for a rebuilding team that had no business setting contract history, was a mistake.
And it was a mistake that is still negatively affecting this team and the cap....
ok so a team with minimal talent in the building at positions of need spending a lot in FA out of desperation had a few big misses and a few big hits. seems the opposite of head-scratching. the fact that they've possibly had more hits than misses on the balance is probably a better outcome than usual for FA. So far at least obviously Golladay/Jackson remain to be seen and imo are probably the 2 riskiest moves they've made.
I am not in agreement with the above sentiments.
Headscratching is suggesting options were so scarce several years ago that making desperation-type player moves was a prudent path out of the abyss. As is supporting the drafting has gotten better (keeping in context of when they were drafting too) and free agency is getting more hits than misses, and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet.
"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
Yes, on the rookie deal you need premium output. But with the minor structural advantage (comp picks) actually with letting players go, I never get hung up on signing drafted players IF you use the resources to sign better players.
All things equal I’m not losing sleep the Giants let Tomlinson go and signed Golladay for example.
That is all.
If you had to choose between a nice healthy cap OR acquiring the players we did this off-season, which would you choose? And don't say "they need to do better drafting", that's a different discussion for a different thread.//////
A competent group should be able to do better in both directions. I'm not angry or disappointed by it, merely pointing out from a business competency standpoint, the end result ROI is below average and needs a lot of work. Those who fail to see the difference (usual suspects, not you, Dave) are not surprising.
A point I believe not enough people are talking about, and which would turn this discussion of all the FAs signed as a good and necessary use of cap space upside down is that EACH and EVERY one of these marquis FAs comes with material risk/likelihood of not being on the field for 17 games: Golladay, Jackson, Rudolph, each has already nursed familiar injuries in camp. Jackson is the only one of the three to see some pre-season activity, and got dinged.
Beyond this, you have 4 of the first 5 picks in this draft class not even suiting up for a game in pre-season, and the 5th (and team's 2nd) having his time in pre-season 'managed' because of his injury history.
To me, none of this augurs positively.
"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
hence my inclusion of the word "yet"...
Was there something else?
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
They will focus on the draft and bring in tier1 and tier2 young cost control talent ... that will balance the cap and give the abililty groom and coach up ... The kicker is does Jones not make the step and we have to switch gears and use the draft capital to get a top pick @ QB (which will still be cost controlled)
Players who will not be here in 2022 include Engram, Solder. Going forward, Barkley will stay in 2022 but under the franchise tag or reasonable contract in 2023 depending on his 2021-2022 performances. At the present time, Barkley owes the Giants a good season. Carter and Ximines need good seasons. Shepard needs a good year too.
Agreed. I think they are set up next year to use the draft to supplement talent. They will largely sit out FA, and recoup some comp picks for guys they let go
this we are in agreement on. I was much more confident in the 2020 offseason moves as soon as they happened than this years, though I do think this year's moves were worthy gambles. They are higher risk and higher reward - but with a 3rd year QB who could go either way I like the aggressiveness.
the strategy makes sense to give Jones every resource possible to succeed, and the fact that they were able to hedge with 2 firsts next year is even better. Worst case scenario they are QB shopping again and the new QB has some non-ideal veterans around him (like KG). But in reality most likely the roster would have to get largely retooled if they have to break in a new QB again any way.
(and of course none of that is to say plan A will work or that anyone in the current FO should be in the drivers seat for plan B - just that as plans go, they could each work out).
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"and yet the GM still hasn't been able to create close to a winning team yet."
This is the part that is wrong. Today's Giants team hasn't even played one game yet and you choose to say that they can't be a winning team. You are using the past to project the future, and while you may end up being correct, it is far from a known certainty.
hence my inclusion of the word "yet"...
Was there something else?
I stand corrected, sorry.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
It's mathematically impossible to completely overhaul an NFL roster (ok, 52 out of 53) in that short a time, without a significant number of FA signings. If you assume 8 draft picks (including a comp, not including trades) per yr X 4 = 32. Even the most brilliant GM doesn't hit on nearly every pick. Don't know for sure, but would guess hitting on 3-4 per draft is pretty good. 3.5 x 4 = 14. That leaves roughly 39 players needed to overhaul (hopefully eventually improve) the roster via FA (including UDFAs).
A team like Cincy would do more bargain bin shopping in this situation. We're fortunate that the Giants have done some shopping in the high $ bin (Golladay, L. Williams, Martinez, Jackson, et al..). I'll let Abrams and co. worry about the cap.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
The team was in shambles prior to the current GM and then they made the mistake of trying to build around Eli. There were other bad moves but some of that was coach choices and the impact they may have had on personal moves. A year and a half ago nobody could have seen the cap dropping. Overall I think the team has moved forward over the last two years talent wise and I hope it translates to more wins this year in year 2 of the new coaching regime.
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Bottom line with resource allocation is winning. Winning always requires good top and middle shelf vets, and contribution from young players.
There’s a reason Gettleman and Abrams have historically liked having a buffer going into each season — if an interesting trade or need emerges. That’s one risk this year if they go in right up to the limit.
The goal isn’t winning the cap, it’s to have the flexibility to add what you need. And the results will always tell you if you were right.
The silliest view point in my view is taking a snap shot of what happened, and saying “see, they were able to make all the moves they wanted.” Especially when the team has failed so dramatically recently.
The team was in shambles prior to the current GM and then they made the mistake of trying to build around Eli. There were other bad moves but some of that was coach choices and the impact they may have had on personal moves. A year and a half ago nobody could have seen the cap dropping. Overall I think the team has moved forward over the last two years talent wise and I hope it translates to more wins this year in year 2 of the new coaching regime.
Convenient paragraph to shift the blame for the last four years as best you can. At this point, it's on the guys that are still here so let's keep it real.
We all hope it translates to more wins this time...
I think it takes 3 years to evaluate a big overhaul, and I don’t get stuck on how/who/why. The failures were New York Giants failures. Coaching, draft picks, veteran acquisitions.
The big moves in 2018 all stunk. I’ll reserve judgement on the big 2020 moves until after next season. A lot can change between now and then, both good and bad.
You go into each season, and your wins and losses judge how well you put together your roster and staff. Until the Giants compete for a winning record , I’m not giving anyone much credit for anything.