actually who knows? ... Phil Simms did not come into his own until his what 4th ... 5th year? Parcells started SCOTT BRUNNER over Simms in 1982?
"Simms' next four years (drafted in 1979) were marred by injuries and inconsistent play. He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards"
I happen to be one who thinks we do not know what we have in DJ yet really. Call me thick headed.
We had a chance to draft Tom Brady like 6 times.....
one year after drafting them unless they show serious character issues. Herbert would likely be a Giant had he left college after his junior season (rumor was that he was DG's choice), but he didn't and the Giants took Jones. This is the year the team is likely to go in a new direction should Jones not show significant improvement.
But he returned to school as a senior , so they joke Jones. If Herbert came out, they would have traded up for him, they liked him that much. But once they invested in Jones, they liked the investment.
They went to something like 7 Oregon games Herbert's his junior year IIRC.
I just not sure if he would do much better.....with the Giants
He needs time....has similar traits as Jones. He has great weapons with chargers
I understand why the Giants didn't give up on Jones and draft Herbert as his replacement. But if you really think that Herbert wouldn't do much beter with the Giants, then you haven't been watching him play.
But he returned to school as a senior , so they joke Jones. If Herbert came out, they would have traded up for him, they liked him that much. But once they invested in Jones, they liked the investment.
They went to something like 7 Oregon games Herbert's his junior year IIRC.
All in on Herbert? When after the fact when he had a great rookie year? If they really were all in on him they would have waited for him and just started Eli another year.
actually who knows? ... Phil Simms did not come into his own until his what 4th ... 5th year? Parcells started SCOTT BRUNNER over Simms in 1982?
"Simms' next four years (drafted in 1979) were marred by injuries and inconsistent play. He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards"
I happen to be one who thinks we do not know what we have in DJ yet really. Call me thick headed.
Simms had serious injuries that delayed his emergence. Jones hasn't had any such injuries.
You guys keep going on inventing excuses for Daniel Jones. The evidence of what we have piles up game after game. He had a few games at the beginning of his career before DC's had a book on him. Now they have a book on him and the results are not pretty. He needs to pick it up.
All in on Herbert? When after the fact when he had a great rookie year? If they really were all in on him they would have waited for him and just started Eli another year.
I'm as concerned about Jones as anybody, but what bbn you're suggesting is foolish.
They should have taken a QB sooner if anything. They could have had Allen.
but I said it leading up to the 2019 draft, I would've not picked a QB at #6 and waited for the 2020 draft. My take was the Giants were very likely going to be back in the top 10 in 2020, and I'd rather have a shot at Herbert. Alas ...
The good news is Jones has plenty of opportunity ahead to prove it wrong.
If he were such a slam dunk the other 5 teams between Burrow and SD would have taken Herbert.
I think even the WFT would have went Herbert over Young at this point.
That's true to a degree. But there was no argument that Herbert was an elite thrower of the ball. The question was could he make the transition to the NFL with decision making.
A few of us argued that he may have been hamstrung by the rather simple passing system Cristobal runs at Oregon.
I have a feeling that not drafting Herbert might be the biggest in the long run. Herbert has performed very well with an offensive line not much better than ours. He has 1 really good receiver. Instead, we’re locked into a QB who might be a good game manager at best but needs to be surrounded by real talent at all positions. At worst, he’ll be a good backup. I have hopes that Thomas will be become a good OT but he’ll never be anything special.
If the Giants are going to suck, it might have made sense to bite the bullet on Jones last year and draft a real franchise QB and build the offensive line to keep him healthy. A good QB will make the ordinary receivers look good. Good receivers don’t make a bad QB look good. Unfortunately, taking Herbert would have been a ballsy move and Gettleman would not or could not admit that he made a mistake.
actually who knows? ... Phil Simms did not come into his own until his what 4th ... 5th year? Parcells started SCOTT BRUNNER over Simms in 1982?
"Simms' next four years (drafted in 1979) were marred by injuries and inconsistent play. He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards"
I happen to be one who thinks we do not know what we have in DJ yet really. Call me thick headed.
Simms had serious injuries that delayed his emergence. Jones hasn't had any such injuries.
You guys keep going on inventing excuses for Daniel Jones. The evidence of what we have piles up game after game. He had a few games at the beginning of his career before DC's had a book on him. Now they have a book on him and the results are not pretty. He needs to pick it up.
He was drafted in 2019 .... right?
This is 2021 .... this is his 3rd season (he has 32 games under hi belt?).
I am not ready to give up on him yet .... I am sorry.
It is not like he is surrounded by a bunch of pro-bowl/all-pro talent.
Every discussion I hear about Jones is (if not straight said, is implied) - "He is the weak-link in the Chain" .... seriously?
Are you (not you Homer specifically) - kidding me?
was no guarantee that the Giants would have been in a position to draft Herbert in 2020. If you want to argue that they still should have passed on Jones at #6 in 2019, that's fine. But you can't say they should have done so in order to draft Herbert in 2020. Of course as it turned out they still could have drafted Herbert in 2020 and traded Jones, but that would have been stunning.
to play out his contract. Daniel Jones was not the guy to reach for a year before they had to have a new QB. I understand the thought process of letting a rookie see how Eli went about his business but it was the wrong guy. Daniel Jones never showed anything college to make anyone believe he was an elite prospect.
was no guarantee that the Giants would have been in a position to draft Herbert in 2020. If you want to argue that they still should have passed on Jones at #6 in 2019, that's fine. But you can't say they should have done so in order to draft Herbert in 2020. Of course as it turned out they still could have drafted Herbert in 2020 and traded Jones, but that would have been stunning.
No guarantee expected, only to not spend a #6 on a QB I didn't believe in, and to keep flexibility for 2020 options on a QB.
I'd rather play behind a Bridgewater in the interim, and invest those top six picks in much better football prospects.
You can't see it as much in the box score, but Herbert looked
the part yesterday just fine. Chargers need to figure out their red zone issues, and if they do then Herbert could be an MVP-type. He is very talented for a second year guy.
I watched a ton of that game yesterday and his decisiveness, quick release and arm strength was on display. The WFT corners and LBs had almost no opportunity to react to his passes since they are almost always a laser shot.
was no guarantee that the Giants would have been in a position to draft Herbert in 2020. If you want to argue that they still should have passed on Jones at #6 in 2019, that's fine. But you can't say they should have done so in order to draft Herbert in 2020. Of course as it turned out they still could have drafted Herbert in 2020 and traded Jones, but that would have been stunning.
No guarantee expected, only to not spend a #6 on a QB I didn't believe in, and to keep flexibility for 2020 options on a QB.
I'd rather play behind a Bridgewater in the interim, and invest those top six picks in much better football prospects.
I didn't want Jones at #6. I'd seen him play a number of times, and like most, didn't think he was worth that pick. I thought the Giants would take Allen at #6. I wanted them to trade their second round pick (37?) for Josh Rosen. (In my defense, I think Sy wanted them to trade #6 for Rosen.) I also would have been fine with them taking Lock at #17 or in the second round, or just punting the whole QB decision for another year.
Drafting Jones and Thomas were reactionary picks imv. Yes, we had big needs at both positions, but I just didn't think either player was worth the pick and yet the Giants tripped over themselves to draft both. I hope they prove me wrong, really do. But, right now they're proving why drafting prospects you think are the best available at a particular position is bad strategy early in the draft.
Herbert threw an ill timed pick and had an ill timed fumble when they were trying to come back yesterday. Difference is his defense got him the ball back. Is Garrett not going to run 4 stick routes with Herbert at QB. Do Peart and Solder not completely wiff on Miller if Herbert is QB. Does Saquon learn how to pass block with Herbert
But he returned to school as a senior , so they joke Jones. If Herbert came out, they would have traded up for him, they liked him that much. But once they invested in Jones, they liked the investment.
They went to something like 7 Oregon games Herbert's his junior year IIRC.
All in on Herbert? When after the fact when he had a great rookie year? If they really were all in on him they would have waited for him and just started Eli another year.
Waited on him? Teams don't "wait" on prospects a year out. That isn't how the draft works. They need to field a competitive team every year and it's not a given they would even have had a chance to draft him.
RE: Why are we assuming Herbert we be any different with Garret
Herbert threw an ill timed pick and had an ill timed fumble when they were trying to come back yesterday. Difference is his defense got him the ball back. Is Garrett not going to run 4 stick routes with Herbert at QB. Do Peart and Solder not completely wiff on Miller if Herbert is QB. Does Saquon learn how to pass block with Herbert
He did have those turnovers.
And if you watched a good bit of that game yesterday, it was clear Herbert was absolutely the best player on the field (on either team) and the reason the Chargers came out with a win. The turnovers only delayed it a bit from happening much earlier...
RE: RE: Why are we assuming Herbert we be any different with Garret
Herbert threw an ill timed pick and had an ill timed fumble when they were trying to come back yesterday. Difference is his defense got him the ball back. Is Garrett not going to run 4 stick routes with Herbert at QB. Do Peart and Solder not completely wiff on Miller if Herbert is QB. Does Saquon learn how to pass block with Herbert
He did have those turnovers.
And if you watched a good bit of that game yesterday, it was clear Herbert was absolutely the best player on the field (on either team) and the reason the Chargers came out with a win. The turnovers only delayed it a bit from happening much earlier...
Best player? No way, that goes to the Chargers OL, Ekeler, or Keenan Allen. He played well and better than his stat line, but he had two bad turnovers. Put Herbert in the crap we trotted out yestereday and the results are the same.
Lot easier to play QB when your OL picks up an OL blitz and gives you a 3 yard well and you actually call plays downfield.
I can't tell if the Chargers OL is that good or WFT front is that overrated. They were mauling people. In fact they probably put up more than 20 points if they run the ball a bit more.
His team also gives him more opportunities. Can’t trash Jones for a single fumble, when only 5 qbs in the league did not throw a pick or fumble the ball this past weekend. Teams rally, don’t fold and let the other team run a 5 minute drive. Giants d frieze their O yesterday. And judge cripples this team with not forcing the ball down the field.
Herbert was clearly the best player on that field, and
His team also gives him more opportunities. Can’t trash Jones for a single fumble, when only 5 qbs in the league did not throw a pick or fumble the ball this past weekend. Teams rally, don’t fold and let the other team run a 5 minute drive. Giants d frieze their O yesterday. And judge cripples this team with not forcing the ball down the field.
His team does give him more opportunities. But Herbert also does it himself too. For example, he ensured there would be no WFT comeback with his fantastic throws on that final drive to run the clock out.
It was very impressive.
RE: I think we also had a chance to draft Joe Montana ....
But, went with Phil Simms instead. The 49'ers got Montana in the 3rd round if I recall correctly.
FO = Idiots for a long time now.
It's well known Walsh wanted Simms. Per Wikipedia:
Quote:
"Before the 1979 NFL Draft, new San Francisco 49ers head coach Bill Walsh flew to Morehead State with assistant coach Sam Wyche to work out Simms.Walsh was so impressed that he planned to draft Simms in the third round, preferring him over the quarterback they ultimately took, Joe Montana of Notre Dame."
You can't compare the offenses of Bill Parcells/Ron Erhardt to Bill Walsh, nor can you compare the WR's of the 49'er to what the Giants had during that era. And the Giants offensive line when Simms started was worst than what we have now, unlike the 49'er O Line.
If the Giants had picked Montana (who was not a big guy), that would have been a disaster...Joe would not have lasted more than two seasons, and wouldn't have had any success with the Giants offense at the time. Oh, and Simms would have won more Superbowls than Joe with the 49'ers. He was that good.
By the way, you're talking about the FO that was headed by George Young, Hall of Famer. Don't embarrass yourself making that comparison with what we have had the last 10 years. GY was light years ahead of what we have had, and with Accorsi built a FO that won 4 Superbowls.
There was a point at which we were sold a bill of goods
that Jones was well-coached and pro-ready, and I fail to see it. When you're caught on tape staring down your receivers 3 years into your career, I have to wonder what the malfunction in. He had great coaching in college, he had great coaching as a rookie.
RE: RE: RE: Why are we assuming Herbert we be any different with Garret
Best player? No way, that goes to the Chargers OL, Ekeler, or Keenan Allen. He played well and better than his stat line, but he had two bad turnovers. Put Herbert in the crap we trotted out yestereday and the results are the same.
Lot easier to play QB when your OL picks up an OL blitz and gives you a 3 yard well and you actually call plays downfield.
I can't tell if the Chargers OL is that good or WFT front is that overrated. They were mauling people. In fact they probably put up more than 20 points if they run the ball a bit more.
Allen had a huge drop in the game that stopped a key drive. So he didn't play perfectly either.
The Chargers have upgraded solid OL with Slater and Linsey (who I wanted in free agency). I believe you saw some of those dividends paying off yesterday. Remember, Herbert was under more pressure than any QB in football last year...and had one of the highest QBRs when under pressure (which made his rookie year even more impressive).
Herbert had the bad pick in the red zone. That is a legit criticism. But man he made some throws on third down that were brilliant. And that's because his velocity is so good he can throw receivers open...
RE: Herbert was clearly the best player on that field, and
Best player? No way, that goes to the Chargers OL, Ekeler, or Keenan Allen. He played well and better than his stat line, but he had two bad turnovers. Put Herbert in the crap we trotted out yestereday and the results are the same.
I didn't see his second interception, but the first turnover was an absurd call. I mean look at this shit lol - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: Why are we assuming Herbert we be any different with Garret
Best player? No way, that goes to the Chargers OL, Ekeler, or Keenan Allen. He played well and better than his stat line, but he had two bad turnovers. Put Herbert in the crap we trotted out yestereday and the results are the same.
I didn't see his second interception, but the first turnover was an absurd call. I mean look at this shit lol - ( New Window )
Agreed, awful call and since it rolled thru the end zone, they lost possession no less.
The INT was on Herbert as the WFT secondary read him nicely on the play. His defense got him the ball right back though and he fired a TD to make up for it about 2 minutes later...
But, went with Phil Simms instead. The 49'ers got Montana in the 3rd round if I recall correctly.
FO = Idiots for a long time now.
actually who knows? ... Phil Simms did not come into his own until his what 4th ... 5th year? Parcells started SCOTT BRUNNER over Simms in 1982?
"Simms' next four years (drafted in 1979) were marred by injuries and inconsistent play. He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards"
I happen to be one who thinks we do not know what we have in DJ yet really. Call me thick headed.
He needs time....has similar traits as Jones. He has great weapons with chargers
They went to something like 7 Oregon games Herbert's his junior year IIRC.
He needs time....has similar traits as Jones. He has great weapons with chargers
I understand why the Giants didn't give up on Jones and draft Herbert as his replacement. But if you really think that Herbert wouldn't do much beter with the Giants, then you haven't been watching him play.
They went to something like 7 Oregon games Herbert's his junior year IIRC.
All in on Herbert? When after the fact when he had a great rookie year? If they really were all in on him they would have waited for him and just started Eli another year.
Quote:
.
actually who knows? ... Phil Simms did not come into his own until his what 4th ... 5th year? Parcells started SCOTT BRUNNER over Simms in 1982?
"Simms' next four years (drafted in 1979) were marred by injuries and inconsistent play. He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards"
I happen to be one who thinks we do not know what we have in DJ yet really. Call me thick headed.
You guys keep going on inventing excuses for Daniel Jones. The evidence of what we have piles up game after game. He had a few games at the beginning of his career before DC's had a book on him. Now they have a book on him and the results are not pretty. He needs to pick it up.
All in on Herbert? When after the fact when he had a great rookie year? If they really were all in on him they would have waited for him and just started Eli another year.
I'm as concerned about Jones as anybody, but what bbn you're suggesting is foolish.
They should have taken a QB sooner if anything. They could have had Allen.
He's a PERFECT example of what you look for in a high investment at the QB position - physical, elite talent.
If he were such a slam dunk the other 5 teams between Burrow and SD would have taken Herbert.
I think even the WFT would have went Herbert over Young at this point.
The good news is Jones has plenty of opportunity ahead to prove it wrong.
If he were such a slam dunk the other 5 teams between Burrow and SD would have taken Herbert.
I think even the WFT would have went Herbert over Young at this point.
That's true to a degree. But there was no argument that Herbert was an elite thrower of the ball. The question was could he make the transition to the NFL with decision making.
A few of us argued that he may have been hamstrung by the rather simple passing system Cristobal runs at Oregon.
If the Giants are going to suck, it might have made sense to bite the bullet on Jones last year and draft a real franchise QB and build the offensive line to keep him healthy. A good QB will make the ordinary receivers look good. Good receivers don’t make a bad QB look good. Unfortunately, taking Herbert would have been a ballsy move and Gettleman would not or could not admit that he made a mistake.
Quote:
In comment 15363647 short lease said:
Quote:
.
actually who knows? ... Phil Simms did not come into his own until his what 4th ... 5th year? Parcells started SCOTT BRUNNER over Simms in 1982?
"Simms' next four years (drafted in 1979) were marred by injuries and inconsistent play. He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards"
I happen to be one who thinks we do not know what we have in DJ yet really. Call me thick headed.
Simms had serious injuries that delayed his emergence. Jones hasn't had any such injuries.
You guys keep going on inventing excuses for Daniel Jones. The evidence of what we have piles up game after game. He had a few games at the beginning of his career before DC's had a book on him. Now they have a book on him and the results are not pretty. He needs to pick it up.
He was drafted in 2019 .... right?
This is 2021 .... this is his 3rd season (he has 32 games under hi belt?).
I am not ready to give up on him yet .... I am sorry.
It is not like he is surrounded by a bunch of pro-bowl/all-pro talent.
Every discussion I hear about Jones is (if not straight said, is implied) - "He is the weak-link in the Chain" .... seriously?
Are you (not you Homer specifically) - kidding me?
No guarantee expected, only to not spend a #6 on a QB I didn't believe in, and to keep flexibility for 2020 options on a QB.
I'd rather play behind a Bridgewater in the interim, and invest those top six picks in much better football prospects.
I watched a ton of that game yesterday and his decisiveness, quick release and arm strength was on display. The WFT corners and LBs had almost no opportunity to react to his passes since they are almost always a laser shot.
Very impressive...
Quote:
was no guarantee that the Giants would have been in a position to draft Herbert in 2020. If you want to argue that they still should have passed on Jones at #6 in 2019, that's fine. But you can't say they should have done so in order to draft Herbert in 2020. Of course as it turned out they still could have drafted Herbert in 2020 and traded Jones, but that would have been stunning.
No guarantee expected, only to not spend a #6 on a QB I didn't believe in, and to keep flexibility for 2020 options on a QB.
I'd rather play behind a Bridgewater in the interim, and invest those top six picks in much better football prospects.
I didn't want Jones at #6. I'd seen him play a number of times, and like most, didn't think he was worth that pick. I thought the Giants would take Allen at #6. I wanted them to trade their second round pick (37?) for Josh Rosen. (In my defense, I think Sy wanted them to trade #6 for Rosen.) I also would have been fine with them taking Lock at #17 or in the second round, or just punting the whole QB decision for another year.
Quote:
But he returned to school as a senior , so they joke Jones. If Herbert came out, they would have traded up for him, they liked him that much. But once they invested in Jones, they liked the investment.
They went to something like 7 Oregon games Herbert's his junior year IIRC.
All in on Herbert? When after the fact when he had a great rookie year? If they really were all in on him they would have waited for him and just started Eli another year.
Waited on him? Teams don't "wait" on prospects a year out. That isn't how the draft works. They need to field a competitive team every year and it's not a given they would even have had a chance to draft him.
He did have those turnovers.
And if you watched a good bit of that game yesterday, it was clear Herbert was absolutely the best player on the field (on either team) and the reason the Chargers came out with a win. The turnovers only delayed it a bit from happening much earlier...
Quote:
Herbert threw an ill timed pick and had an ill timed fumble when they were trying to come back yesterday. Difference is his defense got him the ball back. Is Garrett not going to run 4 stick routes with Herbert at QB. Do Peart and Solder not completely wiff on Miller if Herbert is QB. Does Saquon learn how to pass block with Herbert
He did have those turnovers.
And if you watched a good bit of that game yesterday, it was clear Herbert was absolutely the best player on the field (on either team) and the reason the Chargers came out with a win. The turnovers only delayed it a bit from happening much earlier...
Best player? No way, that goes to the Chargers OL, Ekeler, or Keenan Allen. He played well and better than his stat line, but he had two bad turnovers. Put Herbert in the crap we trotted out yestereday and the results are the same.
Lot easier to play QB when your OL picks up an OL blitz and gives you a 3 yard well and you actually call plays downfield.
I can't tell if the Chargers OL is that good or WFT front is that overrated. They were mauling people. In fact they probably put up more than 20 points if they run the ball a bit more.
His team does give him more opportunities. But Herbert also does it himself too. For example, he ensured there would be no WFT comeback with his fantastic throws on that final drive to run the clock out.
It was very impressive.
But, went with Phil Simms instead. The 49'ers got Montana in the 3rd round if I recall correctly.
FO = Idiots for a long time now.
It's well known Walsh wanted Simms. Per Wikipedia:
You can't compare the offenses of Bill Parcells/Ron Erhardt to Bill Walsh, nor can you compare the WR's of the 49'er to what the Giants had during that era. And the Giants offensive line when Simms started was worst than what we have now, unlike the 49'er O Line.
If the Giants had picked Montana (who was not a big guy), that would have been a disaster...Joe would not have lasted more than two seasons, and wouldn't have had any success with the Giants offense at the time. Oh, and Simms would have won more Superbowls than Joe with the 49'ers. He was that good.
By the way, you're talking about the FO that was headed by George Young, Hall of Famer. Don't embarrass yourself making that comparison with what we have had the last 10 years. GY was light years ahead of what we have had, and with Accorsi built a FO that won 4 Superbowls.
Best player? No way, that goes to the Chargers OL, Ekeler, or Keenan Allen. He played well and better than his stat line, but he had two bad turnovers. Put Herbert in the crap we trotted out yestereday and the results are the same.
Lot easier to play QB when your OL picks up an OL blitz and gives you a 3 yard well and you actually call plays downfield.
I can't tell if the Chargers OL is that good or WFT front is that overrated. They were mauling people. In fact they probably put up more than 20 points if they run the ball a bit more.
Allen had a huge drop in the game that stopped a key drive. So he didn't play perfectly either.
The Chargers have upgraded solid OL with Slater and Linsey (who I wanted in free agency). I believe you saw some of those dividends paying off yesterday. Remember, Herbert was under more pressure than any QB in football last year...and had one of the highest QBRs when under pressure (which made his rookie year even more impressive).
Herbert had the bad pick in the red zone. That is a legit criticism. But man he made some throws on third down that were brilliant. And that's because his velocity is so good he can throw receivers open...
I'm not the one with biases here boss. That or you don't really understand what you are looking at...
Quote:
you continue to discredit young QBs around the league with your biases..
I'm not the one with biases here boss. That or you don't really understand what you are looking at...
Yeah, you are and its fairly obvious as discussed. This has been going on with a ton of your posts since the Thursday night game...
Best player? No way, that goes to the Chargers OL, Ekeler, or Keenan Allen. He played well and better than his stat line, but he had two bad turnovers. Put Herbert in the crap we trotted out yestereday and the results are the same.
I didn't see his second interception, but the first turnover was an absurd call. I mean look at this shit
lol - ( New Window )
Quote:
Best player? No way, that goes to the Chargers OL, Ekeler, or Keenan Allen. He played well and better than his stat line, but he had two bad turnovers. Put Herbert in the crap we trotted out yestereday and the results are the same.
I didn't see his second interception, but the first turnover was an absurd call. I mean look at this shit lol - ( New Window )
Agreed, awful call and since it rolled thru the end zone, they lost possession no less.
The INT was on Herbert as the WFT secondary read him nicely on the play. His defense got him the ball right back though and he fired a TD to make up for it about 2 minutes later...