Conservative gameplans require near-perfect execution and leave little room for error. Under Judge, we have been operating conservative gameplans, hoping to win in the margins and "execute" better than the other team with well-coached fundamentals, etc. We will not win with creativity: our offense is jarringly vanilla (the most creative thing we do are end-arounds in painfully obvious situations). Our defense is jarringly conservative (mostly zone, bend but don't break style -- I will say I prefer this defensive philosophy but bear with me). Our special teams gameplans are aggressive in the sense that in plus territory we try to draw the other team offsides before punting, which in reality is conservative.
Here's why this won't work in the modern NFL: offenses are too good. If we are conservative on offense while almost every other team in the NFL is playing with a lot more movement, a lot more passing, and at least SOME shots past the sticks, and we are trying to establish the run and win with quick-game, we will always be fighting an uphill battle. Our only chance to win will be if we muddy up the game, shorten the game, and execute very well. This isn't sustainable, especially with our ridiculously mistake-prone QB.
Once we start piling up losses, the media will be quick to say it's Judge's attitude and demeanor that's rubbing people the wrong way. That won't be why we're losing. Judge is a good coach, but his overal game winning philosophies are dated at best, and predicated on HOF talent at worst. Consider his history: he was at Alabama where the talent disparity was such that _execution_ would win you games; he was then at NE where the defenses were famously great, and the quarterback was the greatest of all time. Under these learnings, Judge was deluded to think that you win with execution and abiding by the classic winning philosophies of football. He's trying to win like it's 2003, where the tropes of establish the run, bend but don't break, win the special teams battle, and win TOP by sustaining long drives ran supreme.
This is a new NFL. The Chiefs win despite making tons of mistakes. The Bucs win despite making tons of mistakes. The Bills win by passing 80% of the time. We simply cannot win with our offensive philosophy. We will only win 1-score games where something positive happens either on defense or special teams. We will not be able to put teams away. We will never be able to dominate. People are quick to blame Garrett, and rightfully so, but Judge hired Garrett when there were so many other options available. This is Joe Judge's philosophy. The guy punts from the +40. The guy has practically coached Jones to play scared. Jones is not good--he is turnover and mistake prone and locks on his first read. But he is set up to fail if we are not trying to actually _score_ with him. We are trying to sustain and manage with him. It's conservative, it's playing scared, and it's definitely had a negative impact on Jones. He is worse than he was in his first game with us. He looks best when he's moving around and getting the ball down the field. We have convinced ourselves that it is 100% on the OLine because he doesn't have time to throw down field. Watch again. The OLine doesn't lose every rep. But the receivers are always 8 yards downfield. There is zero creativity to the play calls. We try to force feed our running back with basic NFL plays. We play into our opponent defense's hands. That is not al on Jones, or Garrett, or the OLine. That is the team's philosophy. That is on Joe Judge.
Joe Judge was popular to our ownership and GM because he was a perfect encapsulation of the old guard of the NFL. He validated what they believed builds winning football teams. He was their self-fulfilling prophecy. He will fail because he's empowered to run a philosophy that doesn't work in 2021. If he does not get with the times and recognize the failings of this team is not solely on the players inability to always execute or the coaches ability to "coach up" on execution, he will fail a lot more quickly than any of us want to believe. Adjust or die.
He won't be fired, though. So I conclude by saying: be prepared to be a bad team for a good deal longer -- unless we pull out a few 13-10 wins this year and make people forget that this style of winning, the way we won 6 games last year, is much harder to do than most other styles.
And then Garrett calls an end around with Toney, which went for -6 and then Saquon or Booker, i forgot which one, for a one yard run. Now it’s 3rd and 15…then, a short incomplete pass a few yards beyond the line of scrimmage ..thanks a lot Jason G….you just killed a potentially nice drive with 3 calls not going downfield.
If anything the Giants couldn’t get the run game going.
Honestly, I don’t see our passing game offense as very aggressive… just saying.
We didn't look like an at-all different team from last year. We were a 6-10 team that probably should have been worse last year. That is problematic.
That is also on Judge and his general philosophies.
That's because we have the same issue we had last year. The QB looks like last year. The OL looks like year. Golladay and Toney and Barkley didn't jack shit yesterday so it's the same as last year at the skill position thus far.
The more troubling issue was the defense yesterday.
But I follow the entire NFL. There are a lot of very bad offensive lines.
Teams overcome it. The Titans last year, for example, went through like 4 LTs. Their offense was top 10. Their offense was creative and hard to gameplan for. Yes, it was a run first offense, but they put up crazy numbers.
We make too many excuses for who we decide is "good" on the team. Some people have decided that Judge must be a pretty decent coach for getting 6 wins with a crappy roster last year. I'm arguing that yes he is a good coach, but his philosophy won't lead to success. And we will suck. And we will blame everyone but him until he is the last man standing, and we still suck.
Quote:
They did, including on the first drive of the game.
And then Garrett calls an end around with Toney, which went for -6 and then Saquon or Booker, i forgot which one, for a one yard run. Now it’s 3rd and 15…then, a short incomplete pass a few yards beyond the line of scrimmage ..thanks a lot Jason G….you just killed a potentially nice drive with 3 calls not going downfield.
BBI'ers said we needed to get Toney the ball on quick plays. They did and it blew up in their face. Now those same BBI'ers are saying 'bad play!"
Are you also saying we should have run the ball LESS than 14 times? Yikes.
Our talent level, our team building philosophy, our QB, our HC, our ownership style, etc. etc.
We got lucky to have a little bit of sustained success under TC and Eli. It was because we developed one aspect of our team that was far superior to most others (our DL), and we caught a few breaks and our QB got hot. Twice!
But the second Eli and the DL could no longer carry this team, we completely fell apart and it exposed the warts that run deep within this franchise. It's sad. I worry for the next 5-10 years of fandom, and if I'm even going to make it.
Is there a theoretical world where Jones is a top 10 QB? Look at all the QB talent out there. There's not a chance, unfortunately.
So let's reroll the dice and hopefully not try tp replicate Eli and just find the best modern QB out there.
But don't act surprise when our conservative ass team rolls it back with DJ next year after we go 6-11.
I don't recall a lot of fans complaining about the conservative play calling in Seattle last year.
That play-calling in Seattle happened to be exactly what was needed to get a win against a very good Seattle team, on the road, with a backup QB. It also required a virtually monumental effort on the defensive side of the ball. We aren't going to get that kind of effort from the defense every game (particularly because the rules simply don't allow for you to "win by defense" these days). To be a playoff team in 2021 you have to have some sort of a lethal offense that can push the ball downfield. You aren't going to win with conservative play-calling all game unless you have a) an elite running game, b) a QB who can be counted on to not turn the ball over, and c) at least a pretty good defense. C I'm willing to hold out hope for. a & b I don't think we have in 2021.
It's about being creative. Kellen Moore had a great and creative gameplan to beat the Bucs and their DL. I couldn't imagine in 100 opportunities the Giants being able to do that.
The genius defensive gameplan we had last year was running a ton of Cover 3 against Seattle because all they wanted to do was take deep shots. That was a gameplan win -- and it was a creative way of hiding our talent deficiencies. So there is one example of positivity I can think about the Giants. And it was on defense, utilizing a bend but don't break approach successfully. Lol.
If anything the Giants couldn’t get the run game going.
Agree. No running efficiency to keep the chains moving (which is not to suggest establish the run).
Jones continues to look somewhat "gun shy" though. Some of that may be just a function of slow processing, some may be from last year when they reeled in the passing gameplan in mid-year because he was turning the ball over too much, some may simply be not on same page with new targets or the pick he threw to Engram in last preseason. Who knows...
Funny, but that first pass he wasn't gun shy at all but maybe the free play from offsides gave him the quick confidence :-)
Quote:
In comment 15365281 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
They did, including on the first drive of the game.
And then Garrett calls an end around with Toney, which went for -6 and then Saquon or Booker, i forgot which one, for a one yard run. Now it’s 3rd and 15…then, a short incomplete pass a few yards beyond the line of scrimmage ..thanks a lot Jason G….you just killed a potentially nice drive with 3 calls not going downfield.
BBI'ers said we needed to get Toney the ball on quick plays. They did and it blew up in their face. Now those same BBI'ers are saying 'bad play!"
Are you also saying we should have run the ball LESS than 14 times? Yikes.
Yes. Tampa' s run:pass ratio was 14:50, they put up 31 points after 4 turnovers.
Dallas's was 18:28 they put up 29 points aftee 1 turnover.
We put up 7 points.
Running for 2 yards on more than half of you first down's accomplishes nothing, when the running game is obviously not producing. When you are down 2 scores in the 3rd and running for 2 yards on most first downs it's even worse.
In the first half, the Giants only had 20 offensive snaps. Only six of those were running plays by the running backs.
Giants running backs had 14 carries all game.
The Giants weren't conservative.
Throwing passes does not equal "aggressive".
I don't subscribe to that point of view.
I think if we had an OL that could block and Saquon was picking up 4, 6, 10 yards a clip, Garrett would "miraculously" be perceived as changing his ways.
In fact, I will predict it now. Sometime around mid-season, many BBI'ers will say Garrett "has changed and is calling plays better now."
But because Judge will be our coach, we will never be good. Lol.
Quote:
it worked more often than it didn't. The best play we had all game was when DJ got us a free play with a hard count. For all we know, that was likely pre-determined... if we get a free play, the X runs a go and we take the shot.
That's not creativity ... that's an example of when good execution wins. But our whole offense cannot be predicated on that.
If your offensive line can't function, there isn't much you can do. If your QB is having a bad game, it's doubly hard to do much.
BBI'ers have a long history of scapegoating. "Game has passed Coughlin by, he needs to go." "Same with Eli." "McAdoo and his coaching staff suck, we need to fire them. "Shurmur and his coaching staff suck, we need to fire them."
It usually comes down the players. If you have an offensive line that can function and a good quarterback and defense, you will win in the NFL. If you don't, you'll lose.
Absolutely. People blame Garrett. When he was HC at Dallas I dreaded when Giants played that team
I don't subscribe to that point of view.
I think if we had an OL that could block and Saquon was picking up 4, 6, 10 yards a clip, Garrett would "miraculously" be perceived as changing his ways.
In fact, I will predict it now. Sometime around mid-season, many BBI'ers will say Garrett "has changed and is calling plays better now."
Agreed
Haha. Harsh, but fair.
But I follow the entire NFL. There are a lot of very bad offensive lines.
Teams overcome it. The Titans last year, for example, went through like 4 LTs. Their offense was top 10. Their offense was creative and hard to gameplan for. Yes, it was a run first offense, but they put up crazy numbers.
We make too many excuses for who we decide is "good" on the team. Some people have decided that Judge must be a pretty decent coach for getting 6 wins with a crappy roster last year. I'm arguing that yes he is a good coach, but his philosophy won't lead to success. And we will suck. And we will blame everyone but him until he is the last man standing, and we still suck.
Are the Giants really running Judge offense? My understanding is that the OC was forced on Judge. I'm trying to see any semblance between the Giants offence and New England and I'm coming up blank. This leads me to believe that this is not Judge offence.
The problem is, the players either aren’t good enough, injuries, or still young and trying to gel together to figure it all out. We saw a glimpse of this the last game of the season and the home Philly game last year. This offense works when the OL is performing well.
It’s time for everyone not named Gates and Thomas to step up or be shown the door.
Quote:
that a lot of fans are not even really watching the games.
In the first half, the Giants only had 20 offensive snaps. Only six of those were running plays by the running backs.
Giants running backs had 14 carries all game.
The Giants weren't conservative.
Throwing passes does not equal "aggressive".
The Giants threw the 5th lowest percentage of passes over 20 yards, the only teams lower were Pitt, SF, CHI, and PHL. The Giants only had 1 attempt over 20 yards and it was during a free play.
Quote:
our OL, especially the right side, is quite bad.
But I follow the entire NFL. There are a lot of very bad offensive lines.
Teams overcome it. The Titans last year, for example, went through like 4 LTs. Their offense was top 10. Their offense was creative and hard to gameplan for. Yes, it was a run first offense, but they put up crazy numbers.
We make too many excuses for who we decide is "good" on the team. Some people have decided that Judge must be a pretty decent coach for getting 6 wins with a crappy roster last year. I'm arguing that yes he is a good coach, but his philosophy won't lead to success. And we will suck. And we will blame everyone but him until he is the last man standing, and we still suck.
Are the Giants really running Judge offense? My understanding is that the OC was forced on Judge. I'm trying to see any semblance between the Giants offence and New England and I'm coming up blank. This leads me to believe that this is not Judge offence.
Yeah I agree with this-- isn't it more Garrett that's the problem? I flat-out just think Garrett and DJ, while both could be fine individually, are not a good fit for one another. I've thought this ever since Garrett was hired. DJ needs someone who's going to want to push the ball down the field more consistently, which is why he did better under Shurmer. Garrett would do better with a QB who can make smart decisions very quickly (i.e. not turn the ball over) and simply throw short-intermediate passes accurately. IMO that's what this comes down to.
I do hope they do more to use DJ's legs to move the pocket as the season goes on, i.e. preemptively guard against the fact we have an awful OL.
Quote:
In comment 15365285 adambear said:
Quote:
it worked more often than it didn't. The best play we had all game was when DJ got us a free play with a hard count. For all we know, that was likely pre-determined... if we get a free play, the X runs a go and we take the shot.
That's not creativity ... that's an example of when good execution wins. But our whole offense cannot be predicated on that.
If your offensive line can't function, there isn't much you can do. If your QB is having a bad game, it's doubly hard to do much.
BBI'ers have a long history of scapegoating. "Game has passed Coughlin by, he needs to go." "Same with Eli." "McAdoo and his coaching staff suck, we need to fire them. "Shurmur and his coaching staff suck, we need to fire them."
It usually comes down the players. If you have an offensive line that can function and a good quarterback and defense, you will win in the NFL. If you don't, you'll lose.
Absolutely. People blame Garrett. When he was HC at Dallas I dreaded when Giants played that team
I mean yeah I feared them too but it was mainly because they had the best offensive line in the entire a league...
I also feared them more when Kellen Moore was calling the plays as opposed to Garrett.
I don't subscribe to that point of view.
I think if we had an OL that could block and Saquon was picking up 4, 6, 10 yards a clip, Garrett would "miraculously" be perceived as changing his ways.
In fact, I will predict it now. Sometime around mid-season, many BBI'ers will say Garrett "has changed and is calling plays better now."
You mean many on the site will change their minds at the drop of a hat...shocking!
Yes, if the NYG score 20+ points on the same play calls, posters will believe Garrett is doing a better job. However, at this stage him even lasting to mid-season seems unlikely...
I don't subscribe to that point of view.
I think if we had an OL that could block and Saquon was picking up 4, 6, 10 yards a clip, Garrett would "miraculously" be perceived as changing his ways.
In fact, I will predict it now. Sometime around mid-season, many BBI'ers will say Garrett "has changed and is calling plays better now."
Eric, the blocking wasn't great, but when the Broncos are showing two high and crashing hard post snap to stop Saquon, it's up to Garrett to call better plays to take advantage of that because you won't adjust at the line as a QB seeing what they show presnap. I've defended Garrett, but he needs to be much better than that. I give him a slight pass because I think he's still figuring out how to use Golladay and Toney, but he could have busted out the read option.
Graham needs to adjust as well, we added Adoree and lost Dalvin. Which means we won't be able to stop the run as well most likely in zone leading to much more manageable thrid down (and 4th down situations). Have to be more aggressive, especially with a supposed improved offense where the line isn't a strenght. Need to give them a chance to have the skill guys find a groove. Teams with better offensive lines can get away sitting on the bench for 10 minutes at a time because they can generate first downs on their own. Hopefully Judge gets us to play better complimentary football because the team looked to be on completely different wavelengths offensively and defensively. It's week 1 and weird shit happens, I just don't know how you get outcoached so bad when you have all year to prepare. Here's to hoping they had a lot of focus on the WFT game considering the imporantance of an non conferenc opponent vs divsional game.
If I’m Judge, I’m firing Garrett on Friday morning if the offense is poor again. I don’t think Garrett was a Judge hire. 10 days would be time to make the switch to Kitchens.
But not when they were backed up at the goal line before the half.
The 2nd down and 3rd down calls were flat out brutal and doomed to fail.
If I’m Judge, I’m firing Garrett on Friday morning if the offense is poor again. I don’t think Garrett was a Judge hire. 10 days would be time to make the switch to Kitchens.
Agreed.
It's not the entire problem, but it's certainly part of the problem.
When our 1st round pick entered the game (announcer said it on TV), I almost could predict what was coming. Denver certainly knew.
Play action on 1st down, roll our, Jones can throw fine on the run, a jet sweep what a concept.
entertain us for god sakes
This is what happens when you pump everything into the secondary and skill guys on offense.
Hope for no big injuries, it would be a built-in get out of jail free card for the whole operation.
The Giants have a bit of a mess at right tackle and left guard, but the line played surprisingly pretty well.
I’m about to choke typing this — but what else can Gettleman give him?
The Giants are legit four deep at WR, have two passable TEs, and good depth at RB.
Eric - The offensive line and Garrett's play calling can both be bad. I think there is a knowledgeable section of the fan base who were critical of Garrett's offensive philosophy when we first hired him and our first game this year did nothing to change their minds.
Look at the play calling after Logan Ryan's fumble recovery. We didn't even try to throw for a first down.
I do think criticism of Garrett has caught on to more of the casual fan, but the criticism is still valid.
Personally, I think Garrett and Jones are not a great combination. I think a different coordinator would get more out of Jones and I think Garrett needs a better QB to reach the ceiling of his offense.
It isn't just Garrett though, my biggest complaint is that the scheme and overall mentality, was the easiest thing to correct. Player progression and vastly increasing the talent level in one offseason was a pipe dream. There needed to be a holistic approach when talking about the 31st ranked offense last year that only scored 24+ twice in a year where offenses were putting up slot machine numbers. It's only one game against one of the best DCs in the league, but that was not encouraging at all. That was the exact offense we ran last year.
Peyton had some great quotes last night during the game but the best was something to the effect of "the goal isn't to get to 3rd and short, the goal is to not get to 3rd down".
the drive inside our own 5 yard flipped the game because they wasted 3 plays not even trying to get a 1st down. Nobody is saying they should call a 50 yard bomb from your end zone (though I would have on 3rd down because even an INT is like a punt and maybe you catch them off guard or get a flag). But how about a quick slant or a seam route? Do something to put a defender in a position where they might get flagged for PI or holding at least.
The lack of recognition at how important just 1 first down could have been in that situation for both field position and burning another 2 minutes off the clock before halftime was embarrassing and while they couldn't have foreseen how the next 2 drives would go for Denver, they made their breaks by being aggressive and we didn't make ours.
We have a bingo!
We saw it last year - the Giants offense frequently moved the ball, but much of the movement would consist of long, slow, clock-killing drives that all too often resulted in field goals, if any points at all. They were terrible inside the 20, and remain terrible in the red zone. This is pretty much the opposite of what they used to run under Gilbride. The Giants in those years didn't always move the ball consistently but they'd score on a lot of big plays.
If you're going to run that methodical style, then you have to be very efficient in the red zone to take advantage of those drives. The Giants don't have what it takes to do that.
The drive inside our own 5 yard flipped the game because they wasted 3 plays not even trying to get a 1st down. Nobody is saying they should call a 50 yard bomb from your end zone (though I would have on 3rd down because even an INT is like a punt and maybe you catch them off guard or get a flag). But how about a quick slant or a seam route?
[/quote]
It was there; Golladay is wide open. Easy first down and possibly more but Jones stared at Rudolph from the snap and never looked for another receiver, even though Rudolph's momentum was in wrong direction and had 2 defenders near by and 9 years to go when he caught the ball.
3rd and 9 at giants 5 - ( New Window )
Make Daniel Jones beat you.
Until Jones proves he can beat this simple gameplan, the 90s Dallas OL couldn't fix us. When you look at the all 22 the D has ZERO fear of being beat over the top. The slants, outs and curls are covered.
Throw it deep to Golloday or this season is over before it began..
The Giants threw the 5th lowest percentage of passes over 20 yards, the only teams lower were Pitt, SF, CHI, and PHL. The Giants only had 1 attempt over 20 yards and it was during a free play.
Interestingly, Pitt, SF and Philly all won. ;)