I’ve already seen Charles Barkley, Ray Lewis and Russel Wilson among the guests they have lined up - not sure if they’re all coming on tonight or in the future, but I’m sure it’ll make for some fun interviews during the season.
Do you mean like in general or just while you’re watching this game? Because like if you only want this in small doses you can always switch back to the main telecast and then switch to this when you feel like it.
People complain about anything. BTW... Peyton is trending #2 of Twitter and the majority of what I'm reading is positive. Glad I'm not the only one enjoying it.
In the booth. Great insight and not as forced as his brother. Peyton does a bit too much talking while Eli has a laid back demeanor that is ideal for a color analyst.
Btw, Mark Schlereth was unbearable yesterday. Nothing worse than a color guy who loves the sound of his own voice.
they've calmed down and it's got much, much better
on football and not yukking it up with Sir Charles it's excellent. I prefer them to the other bozos any day. They just know what they're talking about and the in-depth analysis is fantastic.
But Eli is way better than Peyton. Much better tempo, funny and adding value with his breakdowns. Eli really show how freaking smart he was when he was under center.
But Eli is way better than Peyton. Much better tempo, funny and adding value with his breakdowns. Eli really show how freaking smart he was when he was under center.
I totally agree. You can see Eli really watching the game and the wheels turning. Not that Peyton isn't either, but Eli just has a better rhythm and more concise delivery. He's excellent.
found something with this. I'd watch these guys for any game. Instead of the bullshit talking heads....you actually get some substance.
Yeah I’m guessing Eli/Peyton will routinely get higher ratings than the regular MNF crew. They should probably limit the guests to football guys though - Barkley didn’t really fit.
Ray would fit right in as a 3rd guy. He’s literally just the defensive version of the Manning’s cerebrally. That 2nd quarter was hugely entertaining with the 3 of them. It’d be cool if he were added as a fairly regular guest at least.
Ray would fit right in as a 3rd guy. He’s literally just the defensive version of the Manning’s cerebrally. That 2nd quarter was hugely entertaining with the 3 of them. It’d be cool if he were added as a fairly regular guest at least.
The knowledge they are spouting is stuff you don't really hear during a broadcast.
It also needs to be taken into account that the main broadcast has a multitude of spotters and statisticians feeding them info. Eli and Peyton are doing this off the cuff
It’s like watching a game I don’t care about with a bunch of my friends. You watch the game and talk some football and talk some yawk. I love this.
I have to say I always thought the play-by-play guy was entirely pointless. Like, why do we need a guy to tell us the ball was snapped and handed off every single play? We can literally see it right in front of us. And if something needs to be communicated to the viewers the color guy(s) can tell us that. I know sometimes you wanna know who caught a pass or made a tackle that play, but couldn’t that just be summed up in a little play by play ticker at the bottom that just says the name of the guy who had the ball and who made the tackle (for those interested)? I feel like this could revolutionize football “announcing”.
It’s like watching a game I don’t care about with a bunch of my friends. You watch the game and talk some football and talk some yawk. I love this.
I have to say I always thought the play-by-play guy was entirely pointless. Like, why do we need a guy to tell us the ball was snapped and handed off every single play? We can literally see it right in front of us. And if something needs to be communicated to the viewers the color guy(s) can tell us that. I know sometimes you wanna know who caught a pass or made a tackle that play, but couldn’t that just be summed up in a little play by play ticker at the bottom that just says the name of the guy who had the ball and who made the tackle (for those interested)? I feel like this could revolutionize football “announcing”.
Yep, radio needs play by play guys. TV, not so much
Ray would fit right in as a 3rd guy. He’s literally just the defensive version of the Manning’s cerebrally. That 2nd quarter was hugely entertaining with the 3 of them. It’d be cool if he were added as a fairly regular guest at least.
Loved it
yes, makes you realize just how good Ray was. I loved that quarter
It’s like watching a game I don’t care about with a bunch of my friends. You watch the game and talk some football and talk some yawk. I love this.
I have to say I always thought the play-by-play guy was entirely pointless. Like, why do we need a guy to tell us the ball was snapped and handed off every single play? We can literally see it right in front of us. And if something needs to be communicated to the viewers the color guy(s) can tell us that. I know sometimes you wanna know who caught a pass or made a tackle that play, but couldn’t that just be summed up in a little play by play ticker at the bottom that just says the name of the guy who had the ball and who made the tackle (for those interested)? I feel like this could revolutionize football “announcing”.
These guys know so much. That was great with Ray Lewis! When I was in HS the team would get together and watch the weekend games at the house of the school’s former head coach who was retired but still lived just off campus. It was great because we’d get a little film study and call out plays and just have some fun. With the internet the NFL can absolutely make some of these innovations in broadcasting. How much would you pay to get Peyton and Eli and Ray Ray every week? I love it.
This is fantastic. It is so much better than listening to the regular commentators. I love hearing the inside perspective of the Mannings as the game is happening, but I also love hearing the stories that they’re telling. Ray Lewis was fantastic as well.
I'm envious of the plays I'm seeing in this game from both teams.
Thought the same thing. QBs making plays and leading their teams.
Derek Carr could be someone to keep an eye on if Gruden gets tired of him.
Yeah, I've brought that Carr idea in the past. But the BBI intelligentsia told me he was overrated, cost too much, too old, etc. You know the drill.
Carr is a solid, solid QB. He was in the MVP hunt 2016 before he got hurt. Was having a great year. I'd definitely take him right now over Jones...easily.
I'm envious of the plays I'm seeing in this game from both teams.
Thought the same thing. QBs making plays and leading their teams.
Derek Carr could be someone to keep an eye on if Gruden gets tired of him.
Yeah, I've brought that Carr idea in the past. But the BBI intelligentsia told me he was overrated, cost too much, too old, etc. You know the drill.
Carr is a solid, solid QB. He was in the MVP hunt 2016 before he got hurt. Was having a great year. I'd definitely take him right now over Jones...easily.
Those were two great throws at the end there, and very good plays. I can't imagine us doing that.
but I’ve always thought Lamar was a tad overrated and it’s shown in playoff games, he can’t throw in cold weather. Amazing athlete and regular season QB however
So you're admitting you give a pass for all 6 INT'z that went off engram's hands! Glad to see you being so honest
If that specific play was Jones to Engram near the goal line, I would hold that play against the receiver.
I have always believed INTs should be considered turnovers if the receiver blew the catch. There should be a scorekeeper decision like it's done in baseball...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Jackson gets excused because the Ravens have won 75% of the games he's started in large part because the offense he's led scores about 30 PPG.
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
Pretty sure that post meant "in the process of scoring points", or at least that was the intention.
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Jackson gets excused because the Ravens have won 75% of the games he's started in large part because the offense he's led scores about 30 PPG.
When Jones does that, he'll get excuses too.
And yet, for all that he’s done, he has a whopping ONE more playoff win than Jones.
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
Pretty sure that post meant "in the process of scoring points", or at least that was the intention.
Jones fumbled in the red zone; is that not in the process of scoring points?
You live with fumbles when the team scores more.
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
I don't read that as an excuse about a particular play. I read that as a distinction being made between the two players. Jackson is a winning QB whose offense has put up a ton of points, many made directly by him. Is anyone going to say the same of Jones, even if you think "he just sucks" is unfair?
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
Pretty sure that post meant "in the process of scoring points", or at least that was the intention.
You live with fumbles when the team scores more.
Jones fumbled in the red zone, is that not in the process of trying to score points?
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Jackson gets excused because the Ravens have won 75% of the games he's started in large part because the offense he's led scores about 30 PPG.
When Jones does that, he'll get excuses too.
Jackson also has a defense that gets him the ball more than four times in a half.
Yes. And Barkley too. Referencing the entire mess that began the day we passed on Jackson for an overrated running back. That's been a theme on this board for every primetime game Jackson has played since he became the starter. I suspect it's part of the reason so many players are so quick to knock him - because he's better than Barkley and Jones combined. Fork in the road.
That a reality-based Jones is held to a different standard than a hypothetical Jackson?
You don't think that's a fair question?
I mean, I guess if they lost his mistake ought to be held as a reason why.
But since that didn't happen, here we are.
Yes indeed, here we are!
Jackson's 2nd fumble was definitely Jonesesque since it was a game-turner. But the first one you referenced? It didn't change the lead to the Raiders, he answered with a score, and he even led them to a go ahead FG with 30 seconds left.
If Jones does all that only to lose in OT because the opposing QB makes 2 awesome throws and the opposing kicker makes a 55 yards -- and does it on the road on national TV -- I'm sure most wouldn't say that earlier fumble defines him. But I imagine we'll never know.
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
Pretty sure that post meant "in the process of scoring points", or at least that was the intention.
You live with fumbles when the team scores more.
Jones fumbled in the red zone, is that not in the process of trying to score points?
Who gives a shit about the intent? What I'm saying is that if your QB recently won an MVP and puts ups a shitload of points on a consistent basis, you live with the fumbles etc.
Everyone on the field is trying to score points on offense
Yes. And Barkley too. Referencing the entire mess that began the day we passed on Jackson for an overrated running back. That's been a theme on this board for every primetime game Jackson has played since he became the starter. I suspect it's part of the reason so many players are so quick to knock him - because he's better than Barkley and Jones combined. Fork in the road.
So you accused another poster of bringing up Jones; at least you’re admitting it was you all along.
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
I don't read that as an excuse about a particular play. I read that as a distinction being made between the two players. Jackson is a winning QB whose offense has put up a ton of points, many made directly by him. Is anyone going to say the same of Jones, even if you think "he just sucks" is unfair?
In 2021 each team has played one (1) game. If you claim Jones cost the game yesterday because he fumbled in the red zone (which the Broncos O did nothing with) how on Earth do you not lay the same opinion on Lamar for his game tonight?
As of right now, past seasons don't mean squat. That's stuff all of us can throw around when more data for this season becomes available. Lamar Jackson and his play cost the Ravens the game tonight and that can't be just brushed over
That a reality-based Jones is held to a different standard than a hypothetical Jackson?
You don't think that's a fair question?
I mean, I guess if they lost his mistake ought to be held as a reason why.
But since that didn't happen, here we are.
Yes indeed, here we are!
Jackson's 2nd fumble was definitely Jonesesque since it was a game-turner. But the first one you referenced? It didn't change the lead to the Raiders, he answered with a score, and he even led them to a go ahead FG with 30 seconds left.
If Jones does all that only to lose in OT because the opposing QB makes 2 awesome throws and the opposing kicker makes a 55 yards -- and does it on the road on national TV -- I'm sure most wouldn't say that earlier fumble defines him. But I imagine we'll never know.
Come on Santa, that first fumble turned the whole game around. Ravens were in control at that point.
Some kind of admission that we should be equally critical of Jackson as we are with because they both made mistakes and their teams are both 0-1? You don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask do you?
Cost them the game... they would have had to have been ahead for that to be the case. But it cost them a mere chance to even be in the game.
I agree to a degree with this. It cost the team in confidence and momentum
Oh yeah, it was costly, but it didn't lose them a winnable game. He's one of the worst red zone QBs in the league... why even assume a TD if he didn't fumble?.
RE: Jeez, I'm not sure what you're looking for montana
Some kind of admission that we should be equally critical of Jackson as we are with because they both made mistakes and their teams are both 0-1? You don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask do you?
With regards to this season yes indeed Jackson should be slammed for tonight's performance. Those fumbles were 100% the difference in a win or a loss
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Is that some kind of complaint
That a reality-based Jones is held to a different standard than a hypothetical Jackson?
You don't think that's a fair question?
I mean, I guess if they lost his mistake ought to be held as a reason why.
But since that didn't happen, here we are.
Yes indeed, here we are!
Jackson's 2nd fumble was definitely Jonesesque since it was a game-turner. But the first one you referenced? It didn't change the lead to the Raiders, he answered with a score, and he even led them to a go ahead FG with 30 seconds left.
If Jones does all that only to lose in OT because the opposing QB makes 2 awesome throws and the opposing kicker makes a 55 yards -- and does it on the road on national TV -- I'm sure most wouldn't say that earlier fumble defines him. But I imagine we'll never know.
Come on Santa, that first fumble turned the whole game around. Ravens were in control at that point.
They did a good job regaining it though, on the road. But the Raiders kept answering... in pretty dramatic fashion too. Give them some credit.
There are 50 threads to shit on Jones/or fanboy defend him
Some kind of admission that we should be equally critical of Jackson as we are with because they both made mistakes and their teams are both 0-1? You don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask do you?
With regards to this season yes indeed Jackson should be slammed for tonight's performance. Those fumbles were 100% the difference in a win or a loss
If you read recaps of the game and none of them make any mention of the fumbles you'd probably have a valid complaint.
But if your expectation is that the same percentage of Ravens fans should be as down on their QB as Giants fans are on Jones, I don't think you'll be satisfied.
RE: There are 50 threads to shit on Jones/or fanboy defend him
This thread is to appreciate what we just got to watch on the broadcast. Pure gold. I wish they were on all Sunday long. Just fantastic.
You know what? Excellent point and I will stick to the OP's discussion.
I agree 100% of how good this broadcast was. So much more entertaining than a regular broadcast. Just listening to them describe what they would do or simple strategies we would never know without their insight (IE: "You never go hardcount on the 1 yard line") was great.
RE: RE: RE: Jeez, I'm not sure what you're looking for montana
Some kind of admission that we should be equally critical of Jackson as we are with because they both made mistakes and their teams are both 0-1? You don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask do you?
With regards to this season yes indeed Jackson should be slammed for tonight's performance. Those fumbles were 100% the difference in a win or a loss
If you read recaps of the game and none of them make any mention of the fumbles you'd probably have a valid complaint.
But if your expectation is that the same percentage of Ravens fans should be as down on their QB as Giants fans are on Jones, I don't think you'll be satisfied.
That's not my point but enough about Jackson and Jones buddy!
Is this serious? Lamar Jackson won a freaking league MVP. He’s 30-7 as a starter. 68:18 TD:INT ratio. 64% completion %. Lamar has proven he can play at a pretty high level consistently for 3 years now. Maybe he’s a little overrated but like why is he being compared to Jones here? Jones hasn’t accomplished even near half of what Lamar has accomplished. Lamar had 2 bad fumbles in this game but like come on it’s one freaking game. Of course he doesn’t get “a pass” for those fumbles— they’re fucking lost fumbles. But the point is Jones has turned the ball over way more often and has made a horrible habit of losing fumbles, and he still hasn’t proved in any way that he can play consistently at an elite level and win games. So like what is the argument here? That Jones is just as good as Jackson because both players fumbled in week 1? LMAO. Or even that Lamar Jackson is overrated (which again is probably true to some extent but at the same time results speak for themselves), but just because Lamar is overrated by some doesn’t then mean that Jones is equally as good as him. Wtf even is this logic?
My personal opinion of Lamar: yeah he’s not always the greatest passer but he HAS shown an elite ability to convert TD passes in the red zone, which is an extremely *underrated* aspect of him. Yeah he misses throws and has things to work on, but he has a fantastic knack for getting the he ball in the end zone. Everything is tighter in the red zone and more difficult to make throws down there, but he has consistently gotten it done. Part of that is helped by his threat as a runner but the point is he has gotten the job done, while the Giants in that span have been one of the worst red zone teams in the NFL.
And seriously the comment about the fact he’s only won 1 more playoff game than Jones? Is that a serious comment? We’ll both have an equal number of Super Bowls too so I guess they’re equally as good as each other right? LOL. So Lamar got bounced in his first 2 playoffs, and then last year won his first playoff game as a road underdog @Tennessee. He’s 24 years old!! A lot of QBs take 3-4 years to even make it to their first playoff game. It’s supposed to be worse that he’s made it there and then lost? And then won just 1st playoff game at 23/24? He has plenty of room for improvement just like any 24 year old QB for fucks sakes. What is this assumption that people have that a 24 year old player is just going to be exactly what he is right now forever?
All that aside though — seriously, look at what Lamar am has done/accomplished in this league and then look at what Jones has accomplished. What is the argument here? No QB is “excused” for any interception or fumble… but even the best QBs in the league lose games and do things that specially made their team lose the game, it’s the nature of the fucking position. But look at Lamar’s resume and then look at Jones’s resume— what is the argument about here? The guy has 2 bad fumbles and loses a tough road game in week fucking 1 and there are BBIers laughing it up and erasing his entire history as an NFL player and saying Jones is equally as good or better because he also lost a fumble and lost on opening day?
When he’s been in the league 3 full years? He was eliminated from the playoffs twice one year? Lol you say “1 playoff win in 4 years” so I guess you’re already giving him a hard time for not winning a playoff game in the 2021-22 season.
When he’s been in the league 3 full years? He was eliminated from the playoffs twice one year? Lol you say “1 playoff win in 4 years” so I guess you’re already giving him a hard time for not winning a playoff game in the 2021-22 season.
My breakdown was one win out of four games and I should have presented it that way instead of Win/Lose style. Sorry but if that's your whole argument it's pretty sad..LOL.
But how does that change anything? You asked what has he accomplished?" I stated ONE (1) playoff win.....Am I wrong?
They were 26-31 the ~3.5 years before he took over as starter and then went 30-7 since. He won MVP because he was a major reason they went 14-2 that year. This narrative you’re painting that he’s “on a stacked team” and he’s just a long for the ride is just not realistic— he’s a huge reason why they’ve been a winning team. Even in his rookie year— he was 6-1 as a starter and the team was 4-5 otherwise! They’re whole offensive game plan changed around him and that’s when they started winning again — like a lot.
Only 24 years old, 3 seasons in the league— he won a league MVP in 2019, took his team to the playoffs 3 straight years, won a road playoff game last year. Then you look at the great stats, TD:INT ratio, completion %, total TDs… we’re basically supposed to just throw all that out and call all it a wash compared to Jones because the count is just 1 playoff win to 0 playoff wins?
Winning in the regular season is an accomplishment for a young QB IMO. The playoffs are a different animal and often require experience to succeed. Players and teams as a whole take their lumps in the playoffs before growing and improving and making deeper runs later. We’ve seen plenty of young QBs have success in the regular season and then struggle in their first few playoff appearances (Eli being one of them)— the point is that regular season success for a young QB usually means postseason success will come in time. But because Lamar has an unorthodox style it’s easier for you to paint this narrative that “he doesn’t win in the playoffs because his style of play will never win championships” even though the more likely scenario is he’s just a young QB who was still taking his early-career playoff lumps.
I think it explains why even though he had a less impressive 2020 regular season compared to his 2019 MVP season, he clearly took a stop forward in the 2020 playoffs winning a road playoff game as an underdog. (A *much less glorious version* of Mahomes having a less impressive 2019 regular season compared to his 2018 MVP season, but clearly showing more maturity in the 2019 playoffs and winning a super bowl.)
Speaking of which— This almost sounds similar to if you were to say after the 2018 season: “well the Chiefs were already a playoff team the year before Mahomes took over, and then all Mahomes did was win 1 playoff game in his first year on a stacked team— so what’s all the hype about? Did he really accomplish anything of value.” Like, we aren’t allowed to get in excited about him throwing 50 TDs in his first year starting? Winning MVP means nothing apparently according to your post above. I’ve never seen someone scoff so condescendingly at a league MVP by a 2nd year player lol.
The past is usually our best indicator of what will happen in the future— and if a player is consistently good in the regular season we can reasonably expect that will someday translate to the playoffs, unless they’re just an absolute choke artist but I don’t think we know that by 24 years old about a guy. And No— the answer then isn’t “well If the past is an indicator of the future— can’t we expect him to lose more playoff games?” No, because 1-3 is not a large enough sample size, and we know young QBs often struggle in the playoffs early in their career. But 37 regular season games is enough of a sample size to know a guy can flat out PLAY. Being able to play football well usually bodes well for winning playoff games eventually (believe it or not) so I think that’s why people tend to, ya know, CARE about how a guy has actually played and how many games he’s won as opposed to just looking at the fact he’s only won 1 playoff game by the age of 24 and writing him off as an unaccomplished scrub.
They were 26-31 the ~3.5 years before he took over as starter and then went 30-7 since. He won MVP because he was a major reason they went 14-2 that year. This narrative you’re painting that he’s “on a stacked team” and he’s just a long for the ride is just not realistic— he’s a huge reason why they’ve been a winning team. Even in his rookie year— he was 6-1 as a starter and the team was 4-5 otherwise! They’re whole offensive game plan changed around him and that’s when they started winning again — like a lot.
Only 24 years old, 3 seasons in the league— he won a league MVP in 2019, took his team to the playoffs 3 straight years, won a road playoff game last year. Then you look at the great stats, TD:INT ratio, completion %, total TDs… we’re basically supposed to just throw all that out and call all it a wash compared to Jones because the count is just 1 playoff win to 0 playoff wins?
Winning in the regular season is an accomplishment for a young QB IMO. The playoffs are a different animal and often require experience to succeed. Players and teams as a whole take their lumps in the playoffs before growing and improving and making deeper runs later. We’ve seen plenty of young QBs have success in the regular season and then struggle in their first few playoff appearances (Eli being one of them)— the point is that regular season success for a young QB usually means postseason success will come in time. But because Lamar has an unorthodox style it’s easier for you to paint this narrative that “he doesn’t win in the playoffs because his style of play will never win championships” even though the more likely scenario is he’s just a young QB who was still taking his early-career playoff lumps.
I think it explains why even though he had a less impressive 2020 regular season compared to his 2019 MVP season, he clearly took a stop forward in the 2020 playoffs winning a road playoff game as an underdog. (A *much less glorious version* of Mahomes having a less impressive 2019 regular season compared to his 2018 MVP season, but clearly showing more maturity in the 2019 playoffs and winning a super bowl.)
Speaking of which— This almost sounds similar to if you were to say after the 2018 season: “well the Chiefs were already a playoff team the year before Mahomes took over, and then all Mahomes did was win 1 playoff game in his first year on a stacked team— so what’s all the hype about? Did he really accomplish anything of value.” Like, we aren’t allowed to get in excited about him throwing 50 TDs in his first year starting? Winning MVP means nothing apparently according to your post above. I’ve never seen someone scoff so condescendingly at a league MVP by a 2nd year player lol.
The past is usually our best indicator of what will happen in the future— and if a player is consistently good in the regular season we can reasonably expect that will someday translate to the playoffs, unless they’re just an absolute choke artist but I don’t think we know that by 24 years old about a guy. And No— the answer then isn’t “well If the past is an indicator of the future— can’t we expect him to lose more playoff games?” No, because 1-3 is not a large enough sample size, and we know young QBs often struggle in the playoffs early in their career. But 37 regular season games is enough of a sample size to know a guy can flat out PLAY. Being able to play football well usually bodes well for winning playoff games eventually (believe it or not) so I think that’s why people tend to, ya know, CARE about how a guy has actually played and how many games he’s won as opposed to just looking at the fact he’s only won 1 playoff game by the age of 24 and writing him off as an unaccomplished scrub.
Leg, I see your point and realize that it is valid when taken into an overall context. But my single point in this thread is for 2021 his play was a direct reason as to why the Ravens lost. The other aspect that should always be taken into context with Lamar is that he went to a team that had a truly solid foundation for winning football games. Comparing the two players should always include that aspect.
But with regards to this first weekend he is the number 1 reason why they lost tonight and that IMO should not be ignored
Of course there would be frustration. But the frustration Baltimore fans have is of the "how do we take that final step to a championship" variety. That is very frustrating, but you know you have a legit shot. Even with tonight's loss the Ravens are probably a playoff team... You've got to get there first before you can win a title.
That's Baltimore's struggle with Jackson as their quarterback. The Giants' struggle with Jones as their quarterback is to score 20 points in a game. The quality of the football is pathetic - the worst this organization has played in 40 years. That's not all his fault, but he's squarely in "part of the problem, not the solution" territory.
Jackson and Jones aren't in the same universe. They're barely playing the same sport. It's a joke to compare them.
This organization was bad when Gettleman took over. He took a bad team and made it worse - and that process started when he took Barkley in a draft that had Lamar Jackson in it. The really sad thing is that our six 1st rounders since 2018 put together wouldn't be enough in trade to get Jackson now. That's the level of the disaster we're currently in.
Yeah no question he had 2 huge lost fumbles that cost them the game
It think that’s what’s confusing to me about the argument in this thread though— like, are you just saying that we should acknowledge the fact that it was BAD that he lost 2 fumbles? It was definitely bad. Without those 2 fumbles they more than likely win the game.
That said, no one player loses a game, and just like with any QB, you still have to look at the full game. He touches the ball every play and even makes up a massive part of the their running game, so he’s going to be directly responsible for many of their good plays within the game and responsible for many of their bad plays. You look at his stats:
19/30 (63.3% comp%)
235 yards
1 TD
0 INT
+ 12 rushes for 86 yards
That’s a pretty damn good game. And on top of that, his threat running the ball and the defense having to account for that also contributes to the run game being successful overall (34 carries for 189 yards by the team in total, 2 TDs, 5.6 ypc). So in a sense he was directly responsible for putting his team in a position to win so that he could be directly responsible for them losing it with those 2 costly fumbles.
Like with any QB, you have to take the good with the bad. Every QB makes good plays and bad plays in a game. In the end— If they’d had a different QB tonight would they have won? We really don’t know, and it Depends on the QB— That said, I would personally conclude that given those 2 turnovers came at very bad times, this WAS INDEED in the end a bad game for Lamar ( solidified by the fact they ultimately lost).
….But that said— it was one game. The 2021 season “today” that you just mentioned is only 1 game old. They’re 0-1. But going by their record since Lamar took over? We can reasonably expect them to win 13 of their next 16 games and finish 13-4 (81% win % coming into this season). Yes he had a bad game, but again it’s one game. If Mahomes were to lose 2 fumbles yesterday and ultimately lose that game to the Browns, I don’t think we’d be having this same discussion emphasizing the fact that “we need to make sure we properly blame Pat Mahomes for the fact HE lost the game for the Chiefs yesterday.” Like, I think in that case it would be obvious he was at fault for losing the game, but I don’t think that one game and those 2 fumbles would be leading us to having these in depth discussions about how much value he really brings to the Chiefs.
It sounds like (and I don’t want to put words in your mouth) you assume the Ravens would have just always been a position to win this game even if they had a very average QB out there, because they have a “winning culture,” but I personally don’t think I’d take that for granted. I think the Raiders were tough to beat tonight. And I think the Ravens are thoroughly built around Lamar at this point and it has proven to be a winning formula for them (yes, in the regular season), and while some overrate him I believe he brings a lot of winning value that is at times underrated (for instance— just a defense having to scheme for this offense every week is reportedly just a nightmare).
It’s not even like Lamar has a bad W/L record but racks up great stats, nor is he a guy who wins but has very less than stellar numbers. Look at his stats. He puts up great numbers AND he also wins a lot. The criticism comes in when looking at his playoff resume. But again I think MOST other QBs at 24 years old would get a pass for being 1-3 in the playoffs if they were putting up the regular season wins and stats that Lamar has consistently had. I think the fact he’s an unconventional QB is what leads people to want to read deeper into these things, and why people are quick to take a bad playoff game or even just a bad opening day REGULAR SEASON game and want to draw conclusions about why his style of play will never “succeed.” IDK just seems that way to me at least.
Wait until Baltimore has to pay Lamar. He’s gonna want Allen money (not here to say whether he deserves it or not…) but if they can’t win it with him on a rookie deal - it will be tougher to win it all with him as the highest paid player in football.
As the game progressed they became very comfortable talking football and the strategy of the game.
Not getting into the Jackson/Jones raging debate but I do think Jackson's throwing mechanics and leg positions have dramatically improved since his first year in the NFL.
after a rough beginning. I did think Peyton did a good job circling back to the game and Eli just seemed flat out mean at times. But overall hearing them talk strategy and how they think about what's happening in the game was refreshing. I dont know if I could watch a whole season but its a great change of pace.
One thing thought they had a great, competitive game especially in the 2nd half and OT. It will be interesting to see how they do when they get a clunker of a game. The guests were good, I agree they need to improve the audio quality at times it was hard to hear. They had a good mix of banter and hardcore football knowledge. I love how they got Kelce to admit that the KC offense is basically a bunch of free lancing and improvising. That could be a huge reason Bieniemy hasn't been given a HC job.
Hopefully they will improve the audio and make sure we can always see and follow the game. I didn't like when they went full screen. Keep the game up at all times and sometimes I had some difficulty follow down and down and distance.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
but Jackson looked pretty damn good overall. That scramble and strike to Marquis Brown in the back of the end zone was very impressive, and exactly what you look for when you say a QB has to be a producer of points. No one likes QB turnovers but if it comes with the amount of production/points this guy puts up each year, you accept a certain amount and move on to another issue.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
Hopefully they will improve the audio and make sure we can always see and follow the game. I didn't like when they went full screen. Keep the game up at all times and sometimes I had some difficulty follow down and down and distance.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
Seriously, it's delusional that there's even a "debate".
BBI can't give any other QB credit. This is even worse than the Dak discussion after the Cowboys-Bucs game.
Hopefully they will improve the audio and make sure we can always see and follow the game. I didn't like when they went full screen. Keep the game up at all times and sometimes I had some difficulty follow down and down and distance.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
I don't think anybody is seriously saying that they would rather have Jones than Jackson. It is more about Go Terps and his insistence that we should have drafted Lamar Jackson #2 overall and his excuses to justify worse play yesterday than Jones had on Sunday even though Jackson was facing the worse defense on paper. You can't just look at point totals.
but Jackson looked pretty damn good overall. That scramble and strike to Marquis Brown in the back of the end zone was very impressive, and exactly what you look for when you say a QB has to be a producer of points. No one likes QB turnovers but if it comes with the amount of production/points this guy puts up each year, you accept a certain amount and move on to another issue.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
In fact, it really isn't a debate at all...
In the playoffs he is facing higher quality defenses that can tackle and keep him in the pocket. He still has a long way to go when he is not able to improvise.
Hopefully they will improve the audio and make sure we can always see and follow the game. I didn't like when they went full screen. Keep the game up at all times and sometimes I had some difficulty follow down and down and distance.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
I don't think anybody is seriously saying that they would rather have Jones than Jackson. It is more about Go Terps and his insistence that we should have drafted Lamar Jackson #2 overall and his excuses to justify worse play yesterday than Jones had on Sunday even though Jackson was facing the worse defense on paper. You can't just look at point totals.
How is Go Terps wrong though? The team would be better with Jackson and whoever else they would have taken the next year instead of Barkley and Jones.
On top of that, the post Go Terps got shit for -- that Jackson fumbles in the process of putting points on the board, which Jones does not do -- is 100% true.
Jackson has more leeway to make those mistakes (and have a game where these mistakes lead to a loss) because his play routinely has led to points and wins in the past.
Why is it so hard for Giants fans to accept that Jones has been flat out bad? Yes, we all have some degree of bias, but this is just like wilful ignorance of reality at this point.
Contrary to what people might think, I've never gotten the impression Go Terps hates Daniel Jones as a person or has questions about his personality/intangibles/work ethic (can't say the same for OBJ when Terps was making posts about his distaste for Beckham, for example). He just isn't the answer at this point though, and it's becoming exceedingly obvious.
His ceiling is Mariotta. Quite frankly, even when there was reason to be optimism about Jones after his rookie year, his ceiling always still came off to me as a better Jake Plummer. I guess that'll make people claim I "always hated Jones and want him to fail", but that couldn't be further than the truth -- I wanted nothing more than to be completely wrong, and it sucks that I have not been up to this point.
RE: RE: Tough game losing those fumbles and the game
but Jackson looked pretty damn good overall. That scramble and strike to Marquis Brown in the back of the end zone was very impressive, and exactly what you look for when you say a QB has to be a producer of points. No one likes QB turnovers but if it comes with the amount of production/points this guy puts up each year, you accept a certain amount and move on to another issue.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
In fact, it really isn't a debate at all...
In the playoffs he is facing higher quality defenses that can tackle and keep him in the pocket. He still has a long way to go when he is not able to improvise.
Yes, playoff teams are better teams. But its not logical to think he didn't play well against playoff-type teams or teams with good defenses in compiling a 30-8 regular season record as as starter. Is it?
And if he still has a long way to go then his ceiling might be pretty damn high, or are you suggesting he's at his limit? Do you think he and the coaches cannot keep developing his game further or is this all there is...30-8 records, MVPs and playoff appearances?
just to say I loved the broadcast. I actually watched the first quarter regular because the gf was using the main tv (Met Gala lol). So having missed whatever growing pains in the first quarter, I thought the broadcast was fantastic. Russ and Ray Lewis were amazing. Kelce was also good, and I didn't realize what a meathead he is. (His brother seems a lot more polished in interviews lol.)
The guests really help make it. I believe Peyton and Brady are actually somewhat friends, so hopefully we can get him for a quarter.
I also loved Eli's and Peyton's reactions when things were going poorly or bad decisions were made. It felt like watching the game with friends.
Of course there would be frustration. But the frustration Baltimore fans have is of the "how do we take that final step to a championship" variety. That is very frustrating, but you know you have a legit shot. Even with tonight's loss the Ravens are probably a playoff team... You've got to get there first before you can win a title.
That's Baltimore's struggle with Jackson as their quarterback. The Giants' struggle with Jones as their quarterback is to score 20 points in a game. The quality of the football is pathetic - the worst this organization has played in 40 years. That's not all his fault, but he's squarely in "part of the problem, not the solution" territory.
Jackson and Jones aren't in the same universe. They're barely playing the same sport. It's a joke to compare them.
This organization was bad when Gettleman took over. He took a bad team and made it worse - and that process started when he took Barkley in a draft that had Lamar Jackson in it. The really sad thing is that our six 1st rounders since 2018 put together wouldn't be enough in trade to get Jackson now. That's the level of the disaster we're currently in.
Not one time in this whole thread have I claimed that Jones and Jackson should be compared. Not once have I claimed Jones is better or that Jackson stinks. As a matter of fact I never even brought up Jones.
The whole point of my argument is that 2021 is a clean slate and is all that matters now. Given that fact, the single biggest reason as to why the Ravens lost was the two fumbles by Jackson. That can't be excused with "Well he was an MVP one year" because that has zip to do with this season. For that reason alone he should be catching all kinds of hell by those who clamor for him
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
LOL...I know a double screw-up on my part. He's 1-4 during the playoffs. My bad
Still, no. 1-3.
If Jackson had his career thus far here everyone would be going insane for him.
Oh, FFS! He'd be getting the same shit that Eli got for his playoff record after the 2006 season - 0-3, three 1 and dones, playoff choker, etc, etc. etc.
If you don't think that would be the case - well, you are even a bigger hypocrite that I thought...
I mean seriously - do you not remember how much crap Eli got? They almost ran him out of town. And the (deserved) crap he got even into the '07 season (until the light went on)? MVP notwithstanding, the would be saying the same things about Jackson. NY'ers really only care about championships...
Lamar Jackson is a much better QB than Daniel Jones.
I'd take Lamar Jackson over Daniel Jones.
I'm still making fun of Lamar Jackson when he shits the bed because it has nothing to do with the Giants and I don't need my team to be good to laugh at others.
A whole bunch of fabricated arguments on this thread which is also hilarious to watch transpire.
Greg Roman is one of the most underrated coaches in NFL History. While Lamar is very talented - he knows how to best utilize him. Jones May never be a great QB but let’s not act like Jason Garrett does him many favors either.
Drew Brees works for NBC. MNF is on ESPN.
Huh? They are talking about the game.
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they are making it about them rather than adding value to the game.
Huh? They are talking about the game.
they literally didn't show the mariotta run until the play was over because they were doing a dumb bit by the white board
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In comment 15365443 GiantsFan84 said:
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they are making it about them rather than adding value to the game.
Huh? They are talking about the game.
they literally didn't show the mariotta run until the play was over because they were doing a dumb bit by the white board
That’s a production issue.
I like it.
Need to bring Olivia into the mix....
I like it.
Really smart dudes...
Do you mean like in general or just while you’re watching this game? Because like if you only want this in small doses you can always switch back to the main telecast and then switch to this when you feel like it.
Ehh it's INC, but still
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they are making it about them rather than adding value to the game.
Huh? They are talking about the game.
I was gonna say literally just 8 minutes in? Where’s the patience these days smh
Peyton nervous? Don’t think that s true. He s just not laid back like Eli
People complain about anything. BTW... Peyton is trending #2 of Twitter and the majority of what I'm reading is positive. Glad I'm not the only one enjoying it.
Btw, Mark Schlereth was unbearable yesterday. Nothing worse than a color guy who loves the sound of his own voice.
I believe they are doing 10 Monday Night games.
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Is this a one time thing or every week now?
I believe they are doing 10 Monday Night games.
Wow nice. And through 2023 too I just read.
Will be cool if a scheduled one is the Giants/Bucs this year.
Except in January.
Kyle Boller 🤣🤣🤣
Kyle Boller 🤣🤣🤣
That was funny, but very insightful. I could see guys like Lewis and Reed shaking their own QB’s confidence on the practice field.
I totally agree. You can see Eli really watching the game and the wheels turning. Not that Peyton isn't either, but Eli just has a better rhythm and more concise delivery. He's excellent.
Yeah I’m guessing Eli/Peyton will routinely get higher ratings than the regular MNF crew. They should probably limit the guests to football guys though - Barkley didn’t really fit.
Loved it
It also needs to be taken into account that the main broadcast has a multitude of spotters and statisticians feeding them info. Eli and Peyton are doing this off the cuff
I have to say I always thought the play-by-play guy was entirely pointless. Like, why do we need a guy to tell us the ball was snapped and handed off every single play? We can literally see it right in front of us. And if something needs to be communicated to the viewers the color guy(s) can tell us that. I know sometimes you wanna know who caught a pass or made a tackle that play, but couldn’t that just be summed up in a little play by play ticker at the bottom that just says the name of the guy who had the ball and who made the tackle (for those interested)? I feel like this could revolutionize football “announcing”.
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It’s like watching a game I don’t care about with a bunch of my friends. You watch the game and talk some football and talk some yawk. I love this.
I have to say I always thought the play-by-play guy was entirely pointless. Like, why do we need a guy to tell us the ball was snapped and handed off every single play? We can literally see it right in front of us. And if something needs to be communicated to the viewers the color guy(s) can tell us that. I know sometimes you wanna know who caught a pass or made a tackle that play, but couldn’t that just be summed up in a little play by play ticker at the bottom that just says the name of the guy who had the ball and who made the tackle (for those interested)? I feel like this could revolutionize football “announcing”.
Yep, radio needs play by play guys. TV, not so much
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Ray would fit right in as a 3rd guy. He’s literally just the defensive version of the Manning’s cerebrally. That 2nd quarter was hugely entertaining with the 3 of them. It’d be cool if he were added as a fairly regular guest at least.
Loved it
yes, makes you realize just how good Ray was. I loved that quarter
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It’s like watching a game I don’t care about with a bunch of my friends. You watch the game and talk some football and talk some yawk. I love this.
I have to say I always thought the play-by-play guy was entirely pointless. Like, why do we need a guy to tell us the ball was snapped and handed off every single play? We can literally see it right in front of us. And if something needs to be communicated to the viewers the color guy(s) can tell us that. I know sometimes you wanna know who caught a pass or made a tackle that play, but couldn’t that just be summed up in a little play by play ticker at the bottom that just says the name of the guy who had the ball and who made the tackle (for those interested)? I feel like this could revolutionize football “announcing”.
These guys know so much. That was great with Ray Lewis! When I was in HS the team would get together and watch the weekend games at the house of the school’s former head coach who was retired but still lived just off campus. It was great because we’d get a little film study and call out plays and just have some fun. With the internet the NFL can absolutely make some of these innovations in broadcasting. How much would you pay to get Peyton and Eli and Ray Ray every week? I love it.
This is what bites him in the playoffs.
The commentary is perfect
Lewis and Kielce were both very good guests. Loving this format.
Cough cough
Eli is hilarious on Twitter.
I can watch this every week like this. And they are going to get better once they get into a groove. ESPN finally got something right .
Ha, I just realized i'm about 8 mins delayed
You don't think that's a fair question?
Thought the same thing. QBs making plays and leading their teams.
Love this trio !
Love this trio !
Yep 👍
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I'm envious of the plays I'm seeing in this game from both teams.
Thought the same thing. QBs making plays and leading their teams.
Derek Carr could be someone to keep an eye on if Gruden gets tired of him.
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That a reality-based Jones is held to a different standard than a hypothetical Jackson?
You don't think that's a fair question?
I mean, I guess if they lost his mistake ought to be held as a reason why.
But since that didn't happen, here we are.
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In comment 15365656 santacruzom said:
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I'm envious of the plays I'm seeing in this game from both teams.
Thought the same thing. QBs making plays and leading their teams.
Derek Carr could be someone to keep an eye on if Gruden gets tired of him.
Yeah, I've brought that Carr idea in the past. But the BBI intelligentsia told me he was overrated, cost too much, too old, etc. You know the drill.
Carr is a solid, solid QB. He was in the MVP hunt 2016 before he got hurt. Was having a great year. I'd definitely take him right now over Jones...easily.
Jackson makes plays to create points. Jones just sucks.
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In comment 15365662 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15365656 santacruzom said:
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I'm envious of the plays I'm seeing in this game from both teams.
Thought the same thing. QBs making plays and leading their teams.
Derek Carr could be someone to keep an eye on if Gruden gets tired of him.
Yeah, I've brought that Carr idea in the past. But the BBI intelligentsia told me he was overrated, cost too much, too old, etc. You know the drill.
Carr is a solid, solid QB. He was in the MVP hunt 2016 before he got hurt. Was having a great year. I'd definitely take him right now over Jones...easily.
Those were two great throws at the end there, and very good plays. I can't imagine us doing that.
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Do we blame Lamar because of the fumble he just had?
Jackson makes plays to create points. Jones just sucks.
Ravens win this game in regulation if Jackson doesn’t fumble
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In comment 15365657 montanagiant said:
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Do we blame Lamar because of the fumble he just had?
Jackson makes plays to create points. Jones just sucks.
Ravens win this game in regulation if Jackson doesn’t fumble
Ravens lose this game 31-7 in regulation if Jones is their quarterback.
Eli is spectacular in his insight
I believe it is being produced by Peyton’s production company, which has a contract with ESPN. Eli and Peyton are not ESPN employees.
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Do we blame Lamar because of the fumble he just had?
Jackson makes plays to create points. Jones just sucks.
What does Jones have to do with it?
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Do we blame Lamar because of the fumble he just had?
Jackson makes plays to create points. Jones just sucks.
LOL. So fucking predictable
I'm sure you weren't cursing Jones when he fumbled.
But your boy fumbles,and it's "he's just trying to make things happen out there!
"
So fucking pathetic.
But expect nothing less from you...
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In comment 15365657 montanagiant said:
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Do we blame Lamar because of the fumble he just had?
Jackson makes plays to create points. Jones just sucks.
What does Jones have to do with it?
Terps just can't help himself.
Fucking loser...
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Do we blame Lamar because of the fumble he just had?
Jackson makes plays to create points. Jones just sucks.
Lol. “Makes plays to create points.” What the fuck does that even mean? And what do you think Jones was trying to do on the play that he fumbled?
Wasn't Carr's fault. Right through the receiver's hands.
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In comment 15365657 montanagiant said:
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Do we blame Lamar because of the fumble he just had?
Jackson makes plays to create points. Jones just sucks.
Lol. “Makes plays to create points.” What the fuck does that even mean? And what do you think Jones was trying to do on the play that he fumbled?
He's just embarrassing himself at this point
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And that happens
Wasn't Carr's fault. Right through the receiver's hands.
When Engram does that on Daniel Jones INT’s I see Jones blamed
Snead has to catch that.
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That Carr threw the ball as hard as he could which to me said carr had some responsibility
Snead has to catch that.
Just repeating what Russell Wilson said
But he's just trying to create points, right??
The gay guy got to him
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In comment 15365704 Mike in NY said:
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And that happens
Wasn't Carr's fault. Right through the receiver's hands.
When Engram does that on Daniel Jones INT’s I see Jones blamed
Jones can't throw the ball that hard. ;)
Seriously, I wouldn't blame Jones for that...
He was only trying to make a play. Cut him some slack will ya.
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And that happens
Wasn't Carr's fault. Right through the receiver's hands.
So just like when Jones throws the ball the engram??
He has a point. Just not a good one.
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
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In comment 15365706 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15365704 Mike in NY said:
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And that happens
Wasn't Carr's fault. Right through the receiver's hands.
When Engram does that on Daniel Jones INT’s I see Jones blamed
Jones can't throw the ball that hard. ;)
Seriously, I wouldn't blame Jones for that...
So you're admitting you give a pass for all 6 INT'z that went off engram's hands! Glad to see you being so honest
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Are you saying that Wilson does not have a point?
He has a point. Just not a good one.
I'll go ahead and put you, bw in DC down for an individual qualified to correct Russell Wilson at his job.
Jones can't throw the ball that hard. ;)
Seriously, I wouldn't blame Jones for that...
So you're admitting you give a pass for all 6 INT'z that went off engram's hands! Glad to see you being so honest
If that specific play was Jones to Engram near the goal line, I would hold that play against the receiver.
I have always believed INTs should be considered turnovers if the receiver blew the catch. There should be a scorekeeper decision like it's done in baseball...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
He has a point. Just not a good one.
I'll go ahead and put you, bw in DC down for an individual qualified to correct Russell Wilson at his job.
When it comes to throws near the goal line, Wilson should not be considered an expert. Ask the Patriots... ;)
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Jackson gets excused because the Ravens have won 75% of the games he's started in large part because the offense he's led scores about 30 PPG.
When Jones does that, he'll get excuses too.
Quote:
He has a point. Just not a good one.
I'll go ahead and put you, bw in DC down for an individual qualified to correct Russell Wilson at his job.
When it comes to throws near the goal line, Wilson should not be considered an expert. Ask the Patriots... ;)
Yep, clearly that is a weakness of his...
You brought Jones into this thread with this idiocy. Don't complain about Jones being mentioned when you brought him up.
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In comment 15365731 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
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In comment 15365740 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15365731 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
You live with fumbles when the team scores more.
Quote:
In comment 15365740 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15365731 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
That's because Jones really, really sucks.
Terps, were you not referencing Jones here?
Quote:
In comment 15365731 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Jackson gets excused because the Ravens have won 75% of the games he's started in large part because the offense he's led scores about 30 PPG.
When Jones does that, he'll get excuses too.
And yet, for all that he’s done, he has a whopping ONE more playoff win than Jones.
Impressive.
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In comment 15365658 santacruzom said:
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That a reality-based Jones is held to a different standard than a hypothetical Jackson?
You don't think that's a fair question?
I mean, I guess if they lost his mistake ought to be held as a reason why.
But since that didn't happen, here we are.
Yes indeed, here we are!
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In comment 15365745 santacruzom said:
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In comment 15365740 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15365731 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
That's because Jones really, really sucks.
Cough cough - hypocrite - cough cough.
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In comment 15365745 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15365740 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15365731 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
Pretty sure that post meant "in the process of scoring points", or at least that was the intention.
Jones fumbled in the red zone; is that not in the process of scoring points?
You live with fumbles when the team scores more.
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
I don't read that as an excuse about a particular play. I read that as a distinction being made between the two players. Jackson is a winning QB whose offense has put up a ton of points, many made directly by him. Is anyone going to say the same of Jones, even if you think "he just sucks" is unfair?
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In comment 15365745 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15365740 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15365731 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
Pretty sure that post meant "in the process of scoring points", or at least that was the intention.
You live with fumbles when the team scores more.
Jones fumbled in the red zone, is that not in the process of trying to score points?
Quote:
In comment 15365731 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Jackson gets excused because the Ravens have won 75% of the games he's started in large part because the offense he's led scores about 30 PPG.
When Jones does that, he'll get excuses too.
Jackson also has a defense that gets him the ball more than four times in a half.
Quote:
No excuses needed for Jackson.
Terps, were you not referencing Jones here?
Yes. And Barkley too. Referencing the entire mess that began the day we passed on Jackson for an overrated running back. That's been a theme on this board for every primetime game Jackson has played since he became the starter. I suspect it's part of the reason so many players are so quick to knock him - because he's better than Barkley and Jones combined. Fork in the road.
No. According to some, anyway.
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In comment 15365661 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15365658 santacruzom said:
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That a reality-based Jones is held to a different standard than a hypothetical Jackson?
You don't think that's a fair question?
I mean, I guess if they lost his mistake ought to be held as a reason why.
But since that didn't happen, here we are.
Yes indeed, here we are!
Jackson's 2nd fumble was definitely Jonesesque since it was a game-turner. But the first one you referenced? It didn't change the lead to the Raiders, he answered with a score, and he even led them to a go ahead FG with 30 seconds left.
If Jones does all that only to lose in OT because the opposing QB makes 2 awesome throws and the opposing kicker makes a 55 yards -- and does it on the road on national TV -- I'm sure most wouldn't say that earlier fumble defines him. But I imagine we'll never know.
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In comment 15365750 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15365745 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15365740 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15365731 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The dislike of Jackson is a little weird...
Also, Peyton and Eli might make more money with this gig than they did as players. They've got something.
It's not the hatred of Jackson. It's just the laughs watching you (and others) twisting yourself into a knot excusing the things that you criticize Jones for. The hypocrisy is pathetic.
,
Where in this thread did that happen?
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
Pretty sure that post meant "in the process of scoring points", or at least that was the intention.
You live with fumbles when the team scores more.
Jones fumbled in the red zone, is that not in the process of trying to score points?
Everyone on the field is trying to score points on offense
Those were costly turnovers tonight - yes.
So Jackson, a former MVP, is now 30-8 as a starter.
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In comment 15365542 Go Terps said:
Quote:
No excuses needed for Jackson.
Terps, were you not referencing Jones here?
Yes. And Barkley too. Referencing the entire mess that began the day we passed on Jackson for an overrated running back. That's been a theme on this board for every primetime game Jackson has played since he became the starter. I suspect it's part of the reason so many players are so quick to knock him - because he's better than Barkley and Jones combined. Fork in the road.
So you accused another poster of bringing up Jones; at least you’re admitting it was you all along.
Quote:
When he excused the first Lamar fumble during the scramble by saying that “he’s just trying to create points”
Jones did the same thing yesterday, but doesn’t get the same pass.
I don't read that as an excuse about a particular play. I read that as a distinction being made between the two players. Jackson is a winning QB whose offense has put up a ton of points, many made directly by him. Is anyone going to say the same of Jones, even if you think "he just sucks" is unfair?
In 2021 each team has played one (1) game. If you claim Jones cost the game yesterday because he fumbled in the red zone (which the Broncos O did nothing with) how on Earth do you not lay the same opinion on Lamar for his game tonight?
As of right now, past seasons don't mean squat. That's stuff all of us can throw around when more data for this season becomes available. Lamar Jackson and his play cost the Ravens the game tonight and that can't be just brushed over
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Each time resulting in a Raiders score (one of them in overtime) and the Raiders win the game does that mean he cost the Ravens the game?
Those were costly turnovers tonight - yes.
So Jackson, a former MVP, is now 30-8 as a starter.
So a former MVP means what in the standings for 2021?
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Each time resulting in a Raiders score (one of them in overtime) and the Raiders win the game does that mean he cost the Ravens the game?
Those were costly turnovers tonight - yes.
So Jackson, a former MVP, is now 30-8 as a starter.
And has a grand total of one playoff win. Yay…
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In comment 15365675 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 15365661 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 15365658 santacruzom said:
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That a reality-based Jones is held to a different standard than a hypothetical Jackson?
You don't think that's a fair question?
I mean, I guess if they lost his mistake ought to be held as a reason why.
But since that didn't happen, here we are.
Yes indeed, here we are!
Jackson's 2nd fumble was definitely Jonesesque since it was a game-turner. But the first one you referenced? It didn't change the lead to the Raiders, he answered with a score, and he even led them to a go ahead FG with 30 seconds left.
If Jones does all that only to lose in OT because the opposing QB makes 2 awesome throws and the opposing kicker makes a 55 yards -- and does it on the road on national TV -- I'm sure most wouldn't say that earlier fumble defines him. But I imagine we'll never know.
Come on Santa, that first fumble turned the whole game around. Ravens were in control at that point.
I agree to a degree with this. It cost the team in confidence and momentum
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In comment 15365765 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Each time resulting in a Raiders score (one of them in overtime) and the Raiders win the game does that mean he cost the Ravens the game?
Those were costly turnovers tonight - yes.
So Jackson, a former MVP, is now 30-8 as a starter.
So a former MVP means what in the standings for 2021?
I tell you what it means. It means Jackson has built up enough good equity where it's easier to give him a pass on what happened tonight.
Those were costly turnovers tonight - yes.
So Jackson, a former MVP, is now 30-8 as a starter.
And has a grand total of one playoff win. Yay…
I agree. The former MVP needs to perform better in the playoffs.
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Cost them the game... they would have had to have been ahead for that to be the case. But it cost them a mere chance to even be in the game.
I agree to a degree with this. It cost the team in confidence and momentum
Oh yeah, it was costly, but it didn't lose them a winnable game. He's one of the worst red zone QBs in the league... why even assume a TD if he didn't fumble?.
With regards to this season yes indeed Jackson should be slammed for tonight's performance. Those fumbles were 100% the difference in a win or a loss
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In comment 15365756 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15365675 santacruzom said:
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In comment 15365661 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15365658 santacruzom said:
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That a reality-based Jones is held to a different standard than a hypothetical Jackson?
You don't think that's a fair question?
I mean, I guess if they lost his mistake ought to be held as a reason why.
But since that didn't happen, here we are.
Yes indeed, here we are!
Jackson's 2nd fumble was definitely Jonesesque since it was a game-turner. But the first one you referenced? It didn't change the lead to the Raiders, he answered with a score, and he even led them to a go ahead FG with 30 seconds left.
If Jones does all that only to lose in OT because the opposing QB makes 2 awesome throws and the opposing kicker makes a 55 yards -- and does it on the road on national TV -- I'm sure most wouldn't say that earlier fumble defines him. But I imagine we'll never know.
Come on Santa, that first fumble turned the whole game around. Ravens were in control at that point.
They did a good job regaining it though, on the road. But the Raiders kept answering... in pretty dramatic fashion too. Give them some credit.
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In comment 15365775 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15365765 montanagiant said:
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Each time resulting in a Raiders score (one of them in overtime) and the Raiders win the game does that mean he cost the Ravens the game?
Those were costly turnovers tonight - yes.
So Jackson, a former MVP, is now 30-8 as a starter.
So a former MVP means what in the standings for 2021?
I tell you what it means. It means Jackson has built up enough good equity where it's easier to give him a pass on what happened tonight.
What 2021 stat line with regards to the W/L column takes into account "Equity"?
Once again, WTF does his past have to do with tonight's game?
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Some kind of admission that we should be equally critical of Jackson as we are with because they both made mistakes and their teams are both 0-1? You don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask do you?
With regards to this season yes indeed Jackson should be slammed for tonight's performance. Those fumbles were 100% the difference in a win or a loss
If you read recaps of the game and none of them make any mention of the fumbles you'd probably have a valid complaint.
But if your expectation is that the same percentage of Ravens fans should be as down on their QB as Giants fans are on Jones, I don't think you'll be satisfied.
You know what? Excellent point and I will stick to the OP's discussion.
I agree 100% of how good this broadcast was. So much more entertaining than a regular broadcast. Just listening to them describe what they would do or simple strategies we would never know without their insight (IE: "You never go hardcount on the 1 yard line") was great.
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In comment 15365786 santacruzom said:
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Some kind of admission that we should be equally critical of Jackson as we are with because they both made mistakes and their teams are both 0-1? You don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask do you?
With regards to this season yes indeed Jackson should be slammed for tonight's performance. Those fumbles were 100% the difference in a win or a loss
If you read recaps of the game and none of them make any mention of the fumbles you'd probably have a valid complaint.
But if your expectation is that the same percentage of Ravens fans should be as down on their QB as Giants fans are on Jones, I don't think you'll be satisfied.
That's not my point but enough about Jackson and Jones buddy!
I’ll be curious about the ratings and the feedback.
My personal opinion of Lamar: yeah he’s not always the greatest passer but he HAS shown an elite ability to convert TD passes in the red zone, which is an extremely *underrated* aspect of him. Yeah he misses throws and has things to work on, but he has a fantastic knack for getting the he ball in the end zone. Everything is tighter in the red zone and more difficult to make throws down there, but he has consistently gotten it done. Part of that is helped by his threat as a runner but the point is he has gotten the job done, while the Giants in that span have been one of the worst red zone teams in the NFL.
And seriously the comment about the fact he’s only won 1 more playoff game than Jones? Is that a serious comment? We’ll both have an equal number of Super Bowls too so I guess they’re equally as good as each other right? LOL. So Lamar got bounced in his first 2 playoffs, and then last year won his first playoff game as a road underdog @Tennessee. He’s 24 years old!! A lot of QBs take 3-4 years to even make it to their first playoff game. It’s supposed to be worse that he’s made it there and then lost? And then won just 1st playoff game at 23/24? He has plenty of room for improvement just like any 24 year old QB for fucks sakes. What is this assumption that people have that a 24 year old player is just going to be exactly what he is right now forever?
All that aside though — seriously, look at what Lamar am has done/accomplished in this league and then look at what Jones has accomplished. What is the argument here? No QB is “excused” for any interception or fumble… but even the best QBs in the league lose games and do things that specially made their team lose the game, it’s the nature of the fucking position. But look at Lamar’s resume and then look at Jones’s resume— what is the argument about here? The guy has 2 bad fumbles and loses a tough road game in week fucking 1 and there are BBIers laughing it up and erasing his entire history as an NFL player and saying Jones is equally as good or better because he also lost a fumble and lost on opening day?
What the fuck?
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
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One playoff win in 4 years on a stacked team
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
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In comment 15365810 montanagiant said:
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One playoff win in 4 years on a stacked team
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
LOL...I know a double screw-up on my part. He's 1-4 during the playoffs. My bad
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In comment 15365811 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15365810 montanagiant said:
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One playoff win in 4 years on a stacked team
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
LOL...I know a double screw-up on my part. He's 1-4 during the playoffs. My bad
Still, no. 1-3.
If Jackson had his career thus far here everyone would be going insane for him.
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In comment 15365812 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15365811 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15365810 montanagiant said:
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One playoff win in 4 years on a stacked team
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
LOL...I know a double screw-up on my part. He's 1-4 during the playoffs. My bad
Still, no. 1-3.
If Jackson had his career thus far here everyone would be going insane for him.
You honestly don't think he would be catching shit for his playoff performances? Come on now let's be real.
My breakdown was one win out of four games and I should have presented it that way instead of Win/Lose style. Sorry but if that's your whole argument it's pretty sad..LOL.
But how does that change anything? You asked what has he accomplished?" I stated ONE (1) playoff win.....Am I wrong?
Only 24 years old, 3 seasons in the league— he won a league MVP in 2019, took his team to the playoffs 3 straight years, won a road playoff game last year. Then you look at the great stats, TD:INT ratio, completion %, total TDs… we’re basically supposed to just throw all that out and call all it a wash compared to Jones because the count is just 1 playoff win to 0 playoff wins?
Winning in the regular season is an accomplishment for a young QB IMO. The playoffs are a different animal and often require experience to succeed. Players and teams as a whole take their lumps in the playoffs before growing and improving and making deeper runs later. We’ve seen plenty of young QBs have success in the regular season and then struggle in their first few playoff appearances (Eli being one of them)— the point is that regular season success for a young QB usually means postseason success will come in time. But because Lamar has an unorthodox style it’s easier for you to paint this narrative that “he doesn’t win in the playoffs because his style of play will never win championships” even though the more likely scenario is he’s just a young QB who was still taking his early-career playoff lumps.
I think it explains why even though he had a less impressive 2020 regular season compared to his 2019 MVP season, he clearly took a stop forward in the 2020 playoffs winning a road playoff game as an underdog. (A *much less glorious version* of Mahomes having a less impressive 2019 regular season compared to his 2018 MVP season, but clearly showing more maturity in the 2019 playoffs and winning a super bowl.)
Speaking of which— This almost sounds similar to if you were to say after the 2018 season: “well the Chiefs were already a playoff team the year before Mahomes took over, and then all Mahomes did was win 1 playoff game in his first year on a stacked team— so what’s all the hype about? Did he really accomplish anything of value.” Like, we aren’t allowed to get in excited about him throwing 50 TDs in his first year starting? Winning MVP means nothing apparently according to your post above. I’ve never seen someone scoff so condescendingly at a league MVP by a 2nd year player lol.
The past is usually our best indicator of what will happen in the future— and if a player is consistently good in the regular season we can reasonably expect that will someday translate to the playoffs, unless they’re just an absolute choke artist but I don’t think we know that by 24 years old about a guy. And No— the answer then isn’t “well If the past is an indicator of the future— can’t we expect him to lose more playoff games?” No, because 1-3 is not a large enough sample size, and we know young QBs often struggle in the playoffs early in their career. But 37 regular season games is enough of a sample size to know a guy can flat out PLAY. Being able to play football well usually bodes well for winning playoff games eventually (believe it or not) so I think that’s why people tend to, ya know, CARE about how a guy has actually played and how many games he’s won as opposed to just looking at the fact he’s only won 1 playoff game by the age of 24 and writing him off as an unaccomplished scrub.
Only 24 years old, 3 seasons in the league— he won a league MVP in 2019, took his team to the playoffs 3 straight years, won a road playoff game last year. Then you look at the great stats, TD:INT ratio, completion %, total TDs… we’re basically supposed to just throw all that out and call all it a wash compared to Jones because the count is just 1 playoff win to 0 playoff wins?
Winning in the regular season is an accomplishment for a young QB IMO. The playoffs are a different animal and often require experience to succeed. Players and teams as a whole take their lumps in the playoffs before growing and improving and making deeper runs later. We’ve seen plenty of young QBs have success in the regular season and then struggle in their first few playoff appearances (Eli being one of them)— the point is that regular season success for a young QB usually means postseason success will come in time. But because Lamar has an unorthodox style it’s easier for you to paint this narrative that “he doesn’t win in the playoffs because his style of play will never win championships” even though the more likely scenario is he’s just a young QB who was still taking his early-career playoff lumps.
I think it explains why even though he had a less impressive 2020 regular season compared to his 2019 MVP season, he clearly took a stop forward in the 2020 playoffs winning a road playoff game as an underdog. (A *much less glorious version* of Mahomes having a less impressive 2019 regular season compared to his 2018 MVP season, but clearly showing more maturity in the 2019 playoffs and winning a super bowl.)
Speaking of which— This almost sounds similar to if you were to say after the 2018 season: “well the Chiefs were already a playoff team the year before Mahomes took over, and then all Mahomes did was win 1 playoff game in his first year on a stacked team— so what’s all the hype about? Did he really accomplish anything of value.” Like, we aren’t allowed to get in excited about him throwing 50 TDs in his first year starting? Winning MVP means nothing apparently according to your post above. I’ve never seen someone scoff so condescendingly at a league MVP by a 2nd year player lol.
The past is usually our best indicator of what will happen in the future— and if a player is consistently good in the regular season we can reasonably expect that will someday translate to the playoffs, unless they’re just an absolute choke artist but I don’t think we know that by 24 years old about a guy. And No— the answer then isn’t “well If the past is an indicator of the future— can’t we expect him to lose more playoff games?” No, because 1-3 is not a large enough sample size, and we know young QBs often struggle in the playoffs early in their career. But 37 regular season games is enough of a sample size to know a guy can flat out PLAY. Being able to play football well usually bodes well for winning playoff games eventually (believe it or not) so I think that’s why people tend to, ya know, CARE about how a guy has actually played and how many games he’s won as opposed to just looking at the fact he’s only won 1 playoff game by the age of 24 and writing him off as an unaccomplished scrub.
Leg, I see your point and realize that it is valid when taken into an overall context. But my single point in this thread is for 2021 his play was a direct reason as to why the Ravens lost. The other aspect that should always be taken into context with Lamar is that he went to a team that had a truly solid foundation for winning football games. Comparing the two players should always include that aspect.
But with regards to this first weekend he is the number 1 reason why they lost tonight and that IMO should not be ignored
That's Baltimore's struggle with Jackson as their quarterback. The Giants' struggle with Jones as their quarterback is to score 20 points in a game. The quality of the football is pathetic - the worst this organization has played in 40 years. That's not all his fault, but he's squarely in "part of the problem, not the solution" territory.
Jackson and Jones aren't in the same universe. They're barely playing the same sport. It's a joke to compare them.
This organization was bad when Gettleman took over. He took a bad team and made it worse - and that process started when he took Barkley in a draft that had Lamar Jackson in it. The really sad thing is that our six 1st rounders since 2018 put together wouldn't be enough in trade to get Jackson now. That's the level of the disaster we're currently in.
That said, no one player loses a game, and just like with any QB, you still have to look at the full game. He touches the ball every play and even makes up a massive part of the their running game, so he’s going to be directly responsible for many of their good plays within the game and responsible for many of their bad plays. You look at his stats:
19/30 (63.3% comp%)
235 yards
1 TD
0 INT
+ 12 rushes for 86 yards
That’s a pretty damn good game. And on top of that, his threat running the ball and the defense having to account for that also contributes to the run game being successful overall (34 carries for 189 yards by the team in total, 2 TDs, 5.6 ypc). So in a sense he was directly responsible for putting his team in a position to win so that he could be directly responsible for them losing it with those 2 costly fumbles.
Like with any QB, you have to take the good with the bad. Every QB makes good plays and bad plays in a game. In the end— If they’d had a different QB tonight would they have won? We really don’t know, and it Depends on the QB— That said, I would personally conclude that given those 2 turnovers came at very bad times, this WAS INDEED in the end a bad game for Lamar ( solidified by the fact they ultimately lost).
….But that said— it was one game. The 2021 season “today” that you just mentioned is only 1 game old. They’re 0-1. But going by their record since Lamar took over? We can reasonably expect them to win 13 of their next 16 games and finish 13-4 (81% win % coming into this season). Yes he had a bad game, but again it’s one game. If Mahomes were to lose 2 fumbles yesterday and ultimately lose that game to the Browns, I don’t think we’d be having this same discussion emphasizing the fact that “we need to make sure we properly blame Pat Mahomes for the fact HE lost the game for the Chiefs yesterday.” Like, I think in that case it would be obvious he was at fault for losing the game, but I don’t think that one game and those 2 fumbles would be leading us to having these in depth discussions about how much value he really brings to the Chiefs.
It sounds like (and I don’t want to put words in your mouth) you assume the Ravens would have just always been a position to win this game even if they had a very average QB out there, because they have a “winning culture,” but I personally don’t think I’d take that for granted. I think the Raiders were tough to beat tonight. And I think the Ravens are thoroughly built around Lamar at this point and it has proven to be a winning formula for them (yes, in the regular season), and while some overrate him I believe he brings a lot of winning value that is at times underrated (for instance— just a defense having to scheme for this offense every week is reportedly just a nightmare).
It’s not even like Lamar has a bad W/L record but racks up great stats, nor is he a guy who wins but has very less than stellar numbers. Look at his stats. He puts up great numbers AND he also wins a lot. The criticism comes in when looking at his playoff resume. But again I think MOST other QBs at 24 years old would get a pass for being 1-3 in the playoffs if they were putting up the regular season wins and stats that Lamar has consistently had. I think the fact he’s an unconventional QB is what leads people to want to read deeper into these things, and why people are quick to take a bad playoff game or even just a bad opening day REGULAR SEASON game and want to draw conclusions about why his style of play will never “succeed.” IDK just seems that way to me at least.
Wait until Baltimore has to pay Lamar. He’s gonna want Allen money (not here to say whether he deserves it or not…) but if they can’t win it with him on a rookie deal - it will be tougher to win it all with him as the highest paid player in football.
Not getting into the Jackson/Jones raging debate but I do think Jackson's throwing mechanics and leg positions have dramatically improved since his first year in the NFL.
Over and out
BTW, Lamar Jackson has greatly improved as a passer. He looked very good. Gonna get big bucks from someone.
BTW, Lamar Jackson has greatly improved as a passer. He looked very good. Gonna get big bucks from someone.
Really? Through the first three quarters I saw a lot of throws way off target.
<Back to you guys arguing about literally anything>
<Back to you guys arguing about literally anything>
Lol so true on both points
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
As for people stating in writing that Jones is in any way comparable to Lamar Jackson, well, I thought I'd seen it all.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
In fact, it really isn't a debate at all...
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
BBI can't give any other QB credit. This is even worse than the Dak discussion after the Cowboys-Bucs game.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
I don't think anybody is seriously saying that they would rather have Jones than Jackson. It is more about Go Terps and his insistence that we should have drafted Lamar Jackson #2 overall and his excuses to justify worse play yesterday than Jones had on Sunday even though Jackson was facing the worse defense on paper. You can't just look at point totals.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
In fact, it really isn't a debate at all...
In the playoffs he is facing higher quality defenses that can tackle and keep him in the pocket. He still has a long way to go when he is not able to improvise.
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Hopefully they will improve the audio and make sure we can always see and follow the game. I didn't like when they went full screen. Keep the game up at all times and sometimes I had some difficulty follow down and down and distance.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
I don't think anybody is seriously saying that they would rather have Jones than Jackson. It is more about Go Terps and his insistence that we should have drafted Lamar Jackson #2 overall and his excuses to justify worse play yesterday than Jones had on Sunday even though Jackson was facing the worse defense on paper. You can't just look at point totals.
On top of that, the post Go Terps got shit for -- that Jackson fumbles in the process of putting points on the board, which Jones does not do -- is 100% true.
Jackson has more leeway to make those mistakes (and have a game where these mistakes lead to a loss) because his play routinely has led to points and wins in the past.
Why is it so hard for Giants fans to accept that Jones has been flat out bad? Yes, we all have some degree of bias, but this is just like wilful ignorance of reality at this point.
Contrary to what people might think, I've never gotten the impression Go Terps hates Daniel Jones as a person or has questions about his personality/intangibles/work ethic (can't say the same for OBJ when Terps was making posts about his distaste for Beckham, for example). He just isn't the answer at this point though, and it's becoming exceedingly obvious.
His ceiling is Mariotta. Quite frankly, even when there was reason to be optimism about Jones after his rookie year, his ceiling always still came off to me as a better Jake Plummer. I guess that'll make people claim I "always hated Jones and want him to fail", but that couldn't be further than the truth -- I wanted nothing more than to be completely wrong, and it sucks that I have not been up to this point.
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but Jackson looked pretty damn good overall. That scramble and strike to Marquis Brown in the back of the end zone was very impressive, and exactly what you look for when you say a QB has to be a producer of points. No one likes QB turnovers but if it comes with the amount of production/points this guy puts up each year, you accept a certain amount and move on to another issue.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
In fact, it really isn't a debate at all...
In the playoffs he is facing higher quality defenses that can tackle and keep him in the pocket. He still has a long way to go when he is not able to improvise.
Yes, playoff teams are better teams. But its not logical to think he didn't play well against playoff-type teams or teams with good defenses in compiling a 30-8 regular season record as as starter. Is it?
And if he still has a long way to go then his ceiling might be pretty damn high, or are you suggesting he's at his limit? Do you think he and the coaches cannot keep developing his game further or is this all there is...30-8 records, MVPs and playoff appearances?
Maybe, but that is a different topic.
And if true, imagine what would happen to Giants if Daniel Jones' cap allocation goes up materially on a second deal...
The guests really help make it. I believe Peyton and Brady are actually somewhat friends, so hopefully we can get him for a quarter.
I also loved Eli's and Peyton's reactions when things were going poorly or bad decisions were made. It felt like watching the game with friends.
That's Baltimore's struggle with Jackson as their quarterback. The Giants' struggle with Jones as their quarterback is to score 20 points in a game. The quality of the football is pathetic - the worst this organization has played in 40 years. That's not all his fault, but he's squarely in "part of the problem, not the solution" territory.
Jackson and Jones aren't in the same universe. They're barely playing the same sport. It's a joke to compare them.
This organization was bad when Gettleman took over. He took a bad team and made it worse - and that process started when he took Barkley in a draft that had Lamar Jackson in it. The really sad thing is that our six 1st rounders since 2018 put together wouldn't be enough in trade to get Jackson now. That's the level of the disaster we're currently in.
Not one time in this whole thread have I claimed that Jones and Jackson should be compared. Not once have I claimed Jones is better or that Jackson stinks. As a matter of fact I never even brought up Jones.
The whole point of my argument is that 2021 is a clean slate and is all that matters now. Given that fact, the single biggest reason as to why the Ravens lost was the two fumbles by Jackson. That can't be excused with "Well he was an MVP one year" because that has zip to do with this season. For that reason alone he should be catching all kinds of hell by those who clamor for him
Not one person has claimed the other. Your point?
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next question please.
Not one person has claimed the other. Your point?
I completely misread your post. Please ignore my response
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In comment 15365812 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15365811 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15365810 montanagiant said:
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One playoff win in 4 years on a stacked team
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
LOL...I know a double screw-up on my part. He's 1-4 during the playoffs. My bad
Still, no. 1-3.
If Jackson had his career thus far here everyone would be going insane for him.
Oh, FFS! He'd be getting the same shit that Eli got for his playoff record after the 2006 season - 0-3, three 1 and dones, playoff choker, etc, etc. etc.
If you don't think that would be the case - well, you are even a bigger hypocrite that I thought...
I mean seriously - do you not remember how much crap Eli got? They almost ran him out of town. And the (deserved) crap he got even into the '07 season (until the light went on)? MVP notwithstanding, the would be saying the same things about Jackson. NY'ers really only care about championships...
I'd take Lamar Jackson over Daniel Jones.
I'm still making fun of Lamar Jackson when he shits the bed because it has nothing to do with the Giants and I don't need my team to be good to laugh at others.
A whole bunch of fabricated arguments on this thread which is also hilarious to watch transpire.
Yep, it typically starts with a poster or two making comments looking to instigate just like this thread
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And blew it up into one of this biggest mismatched football arguments of all time. This place has gotten mind boggling.
Yep, it typically starts with a poster or two making comments looking to instigate just like this thread
You have to install the secret ignore feature - once you have that in there you can bypass the noise. Its a Chrome add on.
I'm picky with my ignore features.