Some kind of admission that we should be equally critical of Jackson as we are with because they both made mistakes and their teams are both 0-1? You don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask do you?
With regards to this season yes indeed Jackson should be slammed for tonight's performance. Those fumbles were 100% the difference in a win or a loss
If you read recaps of the game and none of them make any mention of the fumbles you'd probably have a valid complaint.
But if your expectation is that the same percentage of Ravens fans should be as down on their QB as Giants fans are on Jones, I don't think you'll be satisfied.
That's not my point but enough about Jackson and Jones buddy!
Is this serious? Lamar Jackson won a freaking league MVP. He’s 30-7 as a starter. 68:18 TD:INT ratio. 64% completion %. Lamar has proven he can play at a pretty high level consistently for 3 years now. Maybe he’s a little overrated but like why is he being compared to Jones here? Jones hasn’t accomplished even near half of what Lamar has accomplished. Lamar had 2 bad fumbles in this game but like come on it’s one freaking game. Of course he doesn’t get “a pass” for those fumbles— they’re fucking lost fumbles. But the point is Jones has turned the ball over way more often and has made a horrible habit of losing fumbles, and he still hasn’t proved in any way that he can play consistently at an elite level and win games. So like what is the argument here? That Jones is just as good as Jackson because both players fumbled in week 1? LMAO. Or even that Lamar Jackson is overrated (which again is probably true to some extent but at the same time results speak for themselves), but just because Lamar is overrated by some doesn’t then mean that Jones is equally as good as him. Wtf even is this logic?
My personal opinion of Lamar: yeah he’s not always the greatest passer but he HAS shown an elite ability to convert TD passes in the red zone, which is an extremely *underrated* aspect of him. Yeah he misses throws and has things to work on, but he has a fantastic knack for getting the he ball in the end zone. Everything is tighter in the red zone and more difficult to make throws down there, but he has consistently gotten it done. Part of that is helped by his threat as a runner but the point is he has gotten the job done, while the Giants in that span have been one of the worst red zone teams in the NFL.
And seriously the comment about the fact he’s only won 1 more playoff game than Jones? Is that a serious comment? We’ll both have an equal number of Super Bowls too so I guess they’re equally as good as each other right? LOL. So Lamar got bounced in his first 2 playoffs, and then last year won his first playoff game as a road underdog @Tennessee. He’s 24 years old!! A lot of QBs take 3-4 years to even make it to their first playoff game. It’s supposed to be worse that he’s made it there and then lost? And then won just 1st playoff game at 23/24? He has plenty of room for improvement just like any 24 year old QB for fucks sakes. What is this assumption that people have that a 24 year old player is just going to be exactly what he is right now forever?
All that aside though — seriously, look at what Lamar am has done/accomplished in this league and then look at what Jones has accomplished. What is the argument here? No QB is “excused” for any interception or fumble… but even the best QBs in the league lose games and do things that specially made their team lose the game, it’s the nature of the fucking position. But look at Lamar’s resume and then look at Jones’s resume— what is the argument about here? The guy has 2 bad fumbles and loses a tough road game in week fucking 1 and there are BBIers laughing it up and erasing his entire history as an NFL player and saying Jones is equally as good or better because he also lost a fumble and lost on opening day?
When he’s been in the league 3 full years? He was eliminated from the playoffs twice one year? Lol you say “1 playoff win in 4 years” so I guess you’re already giving him a hard time for not winning a playoff game in the 2021-22 season.
When he’s been in the league 3 full years? He was eliminated from the playoffs twice one year? Lol you say “1 playoff win in 4 years” so I guess you’re already giving him a hard time for not winning a playoff game in the 2021-22 season.
My breakdown was one win out of four games and I should have presented it that way instead of Win/Lose style. Sorry but if that's your whole argument it's pretty sad..LOL.
But how does that change anything? You asked what has he accomplished?" I stated ONE (1) playoff win.....Am I wrong?
They were 26-31 the ~3.5 years before he took over as starter and then went 30-7 since. He won MVP because he was a major reason they went 14-2 that year. This narrative you’re painting that he’s “on a stacked team” and he’s just a long for the ride is just not realistic— he’s a huge reason why they’ve been a winning team. Even in his rookie year— he was 6-1 as a starter and the team was 4-5 otherwise! They’re whole offensive game plan changed around him and that’s when they started winning again — like a lot.
Only 24 years old, 3 seasons in the league— he won a league MVP in 2019, took his team to the playoffs 3 straight years, won a road playoff game last year. Then you look at the great stats, TD:INT ratio, completion %, total TDs… we’re basically supposed to just throw all that out and call all it a wash compared to Jones because the count is just 1 playoff win to 0 playoff wins?
Winning in the regular season is an accomplishment for a young QB IMO. The playoffs are a different animal and often require experience to succeed. Players and teams as a whole take their lumps in the playoffs before growing and improving and making deeper runs later. We’ve seen plenty of young QBs have success in the regular season and then struggle in their first few playoff appearances (Eli being one of them)— the point is that regular season success for a young QB usually means postseason success will come in time. But because Lamar has an unorthodox style it’s easier for you to paint this narrative that “he doesn’t win in the playoffs because his style of play will never win championships” even though the more likely scenario is he’s just a young QB who was still taking his early-career playoff lumps.
I think it explains why even though he had a less impressive 2020 regular season compared to his 2019 MVP season, he clearly took a stop forward in the 2020 playoffs winning a road playoff game as an underdog. (A *much less glorious version* of Mahomes having a less impressive 2019 regular season compared to his 2018 MVP season, but clearly showing more maturity in the 2019 playoffs and winning a super bowl.)
Speaking of which— This almost sounds similar to if you were to say after the 2018 season: “well the Chiefs were already a playoff team the year before Mahomes took over, and then all Mahomes did was win 1 playoff game in his first year on a stacked team— so what’s all the hype about? Did he really accomplish anything of value.” Like, we aren’t allowed to get in excited about him throwing 50 TDs in his first year starting? Winning MVP means nothing apparently according to your post above. I’ve never seen someone scoff so condescendingly at a league MVP by a 2nd year player lol.
The past is usually our best indicator of what will happen in the future— and if a player is consistently good in the regular season we can reasonably expect that will someday translate to the playoffs, unless they’re just an absolute choke artist but I don’t think we know that by 24 years old about a guy. And No— the answer then isn’t “well If the past is an indicator of the future— can’t we expect him to lose more playoff games?” No, because 1-3 is not a large enough sample size, and we know young QBs often struggle in the playoffs early in their career. But 37 regular season games is enough of a sample size to know a guy can flat out PLAY. Being able to play football well usually bodes well for winning playoff games eventually (believe it or not) so I think that’s why people tend to, ya know, CARE about how a guy has actually played and how many games he’s won as opposed to just looking at the fact he’s only won 1 playoff game by the age of 24 and writing him off as an unaccomplished scrub.
They were 26-31 the ~3.5 years before he took over as starter and then went 30-7 since. He won MVP because he was a major reason they went 14-2 that year. This narrative you’re painting that he’s “on a stacked team” and he’s just a long for the ride is just not realistic— he’s a huge reason why they’ve been a winning team. Even in his rookie year— he was 6-1 as a starter and the team was 4-5 otherwise! They’re whole offensive game plan changed around him and that’s when they started winning again — like a lot.
Only 24 years old, 3 seasons in the league— he won a league MVP in 2019, took his team to the playoffs 3 straight years, won a road playoff game last year. Then you look at the great stats, TD:INT ratio, completion %, total TDs… we’re basically supposed to just throw all that out and call all it a wash compared to Jones because the count is just 1 playoff win to 0 playoff wins?
Winning in the regular season is an accomplishment for a young QB IMO. The playoffs are a different animal and often require experience to succeed. Players and teams as a whole take their lumps in the playoffs before growing and improving and making deeper runs later. We’ve seen plenty of young QBs have success in the regular season and then struggle in their first few playoff appearances (Eli being one of them)— the point is that regular season success for a young QB usually means postseason success will come in time. But because Lamar has an unorthodox style it’s easier for you to paint this narrative that “he doesn’t win in the playoffs because his style of play will never win championships” even though the more likely scenario is he’s just a young QB who was still taking his early-career playoff lumps.
I think it explains why even though he had a less impressive 2020 regular season compared to his 2019 MVP season, he clearly took a stop forward in the 2020 playoffs winning a road playoff game as an underdog. (A *much less glorious version* of Mahomes having a less impressive 2019 regular season compared to his 2018 MVP season, but clearly showing more maturity in the 2019 playoffs and winning a super bowl.)
Speaking of which— This almost sounds similar to if you were to say after the 2018 season: “well the Chiefs were already a playoff team the year before Mahomes took over, and then all Mahomes did was win 1 playoff game in his first year on a stacked team— so what’s all the hype about? Did he really accomplish anything of value.” Like, we aren’t allowed to get in excited about him throwing 50 TDs in his first year starting? Winning MVP means nothing apparently according to your post above. I’ve never seen someone scoff so condescendingly at a league MVP by a 2nd year player lol.
The past is usually our best indicator of what will happen in the future— and if a player is consistently good in the regular season we can reasonably expect that will someday translate to the playoffs, unless they’re just an absolute choke artist but I don’t think we know that by 24 years old about a guy. And No— the answer then isn’t “well If the past is an indicator of the future— can’t we expect him to lose more playoff games?” No, because 1-3 is not a large enough sample size, and we know young QBs often struggle in the playoffs early in their career. But 37 regular season games is enough of a sample size to know a guy can flat out PLAY. Being able to play football well usually bodes well for winning playoff games eventually (believe it or not) so I think that’s why people tend to, ya know, CARE about how a guy has actually played and how many games he’s won as opposed to just looking at the fact he’s only won 1 playoff game by the age of 24 and writing him off as an unaccomplished scrub.
Leg, I see your point and realize that it is valid when taken into an overall context. But my single point in this thread is for 2021 his play was a direct reason as to why the Ravens lost. The other aspect that should always be taken into context with Lamar is that he went to a team that had a truly solid foundation for winning football games. Comparing the two players should always include that aspect.
But with regards to this first weekend he is the number 1 reason why they lost tonight and that IMO should not be ignored
Of course there would be frustration. But the frustration Baltimore fans have is of the "how do we take that final step to a championship" variety. That is very frustrating, but you know you have a legit shot. Even with tonight's loss the Ravens are probably a playoff team... You've got to get there first before you can win a title.
That's Baltimore's struggle with Jackson as their quarterback. The Giants' struggle with Jones as their quarterback is to score 20 points in a game. The quality of the football is pathetic - the worst this organization has played in 40 years. That's not all his fault, but he's squarely in "part of the problem, not the solution" territory.
Jackson and Jones aren't in the same universe. They're barely playing the same sport. It's a joke to compare them.
This organization was bad when Gettleman took over. He took a bad team and made it worse - and that process started when he took Barkley in a draft that had Lamar Jackson in it. The really sad thing is that our six 1st rounders since 2018 put together wouldn't be enough in trade to get Jackson now. That's the level of the disaster we're currently in.
Yeah no question he had 2 huge lost fumbles that cost them the game
It think that’s what’s confusing to me about the argument in this thread though— like, are you just saying that we should acknowledge the fact that it was BAD that he lost 2 fumbles? It was definitely bad. Without those 2 fumbles they more than likely win the game.
That said, no one player loses a game, and just like with any QB, you still have to look at the full game. He touches the ball every play and even makes up a massive part of the their running game, so he’s going to be directly responsible for many of their good plays within the game and responsible for many of their bad plays. You look at his stats:
19/30 (63.3% comp%)
235 yards
1 TD
0 INT
+ 12 rushes for 86 yards
That’s a pretty damn good game. And on top of that, his threat running the ball and the defense having to account for that also contributes to the run game being successful overall (34 carries for 189 yards by the team in total, 2 TDs, 5.6 ypc). So in a sense he was directly responsible for putting his team in a position to win so that he could be directly responsible for them losing it with those 2 costly fumbles.
Like with any QB, you have to take the good with the bad. Every QB makes good plays and bad plays in a game. In the end— If they’d had a different QB tonight would they have won? We really don’t know, and it Depends on the QB— That said, I would personally conclude that given those 2 turnovers came at very bad times, this WAS INDEED in the end a bad game for Lamar ( solidified by the fact they ultimately lost).
….But that said— it was one game. The 2021 season “today” that you just mentioned is only 1 game old. They’re 0-1. But going by their record since Lamar took over? We can reasonably expect them to win 13 of their next 16 games and finish 13-4 (81% win % coming into this season). Yes he had a bad game, but again it’s one game. If Mahomes were to lose 2 fumbles yesterday and ultimately lose that game to the Browns, I don’t think we’d be having this same discussion emphasizing the fact that “we need to make sure we properly blame Pat Mahomes for the fact HE lost the game for the Chiefs yesterday.” Like, I think in that case it would be obvious he was at fault for losing the game, but I don’t think that one game and those 2 fumbles would be leading us to having these in depth discussions about how much value he really brings to the Chiefs.
It sounds like (and I don’t want to put words in your mouth) you assume the Ravens would have just always been a position to win this game even if they had a very average QB out there, because they have a “winning culture,” but I personally don’t think I’d take that for granted. I think the Raiders were tough to beat tonight. And I think the Ravens are thoroughly built around Lamar at this point and it has proven to be a winning formula for them (yes, in the regular season), and while some overrate him I believe he brings a lot of winning value that is at times underrated (for instance— just a defense having to scheme for this offense every week is reportedly just a nightmare).
It’s not even like Lamar has a bad W/L record but racks up great stats, nor is he a guy who wins but has very less than stellar numbers. Look at his stats. He puts up great numbers AND he also wins a lot. The criticism comes in when looking at his playoff resume. But again I think MOST other QBs at 24 years old would get a pass for being 1-3 in the playoffs if they were putting up the regular season wins and stats that Lamar has consistently had. I think the fact he’s an unconventional QB is what leads people to want to read deeper into these things, and why people are quick to take a bad playoff game or even just a bad opening day REGULAR SEASON game and want to draw conclusions about why his style of play will never “succeed.” IDK just seems that way to me at least.
Wait until Baltimore has to pay Lamar. He’s gonna want Allen money (not here to say whether he deserves it or not…) but if they can’t win it with him on a rookie deal - it will be tougher to win it all with him as the highest paid player in football.
As the game progressed they became very comfortable talking football and the strategy of the game.
Not getting into the Jackson/Jones raging debate but I do think Jackson's throwing mechanics and leg positions have dramatically improved since his first year in the NFL.
after a rough beginning. I did think Peyton did a good job circling back to the game and Eli just seemed flat out mean at times. But overall hearing them talk strategy and how they think about what's happening in the game was refreshing. I dont know if I could watch a whole season but its a great change of pace.
One thing thought they had a great, competitive game especially in the 2nd half and OT. It will be interesting to see how they do when they get a clunker of a game. The guests were good, I agree they need to improve the audio quality at times it was hard to hear. They had a good mix of banter and hardcore football knowledge. I love how they got Kelce to admit that the KC offense is basically a bunch of free lancing and improvising. That could be a huge reason Bieniemy hasn't been given a HC job.
Hopefully they will improve the audio and make sure we can always see and follow the game. I didn't like when they went full screen. Keep the game up at all times and sometimes I had some difficulty follow down and down and distance.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
but Jackson looked pretty damn good overall. That scramble and strike to Marquis Brown in the back of the end zone was very impressive, and exactly what you look for when you say a QB has to be a producer of points. No one likes QB turnovers but if it comes with the amount of production/points this guy puts up each year, you accept a certain amount and move on to another issue.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
Hopefully they will improve the audio and make sure we can always see and follow the game. I didn't like when they went full screen. Keep the game up at all times and sometimes I had some difficulty follow down and down and distance.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
Seriously, it's delusional that there's even a "debate".
BBI can't give any other QB credit. This is even worse than the Dak discussion after the Cowboys-Bucs game.
Hopefully they will improve the audio and make sure we can always see and follow the game. I didn't like when they went full screen. Keep the game up at all times and sometimes I had some difficulty follow down and down and distance.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
I don't think anybody is seriously saying that they would rather have Jones than Jackson. It is more about Go Terps and his insistence that we should have drafted Lamar Jackson #2 overall and his excuses to justify worse play yesterday than Jones had on Sunday even though Jackson was facing the worse defense on paper. You can't just look at point totals.
but Jackson looked pretty damn good overall. That scramble and strike to Marquis Brown in the back of the end zone was very impressive, and exactly what you look for when you say a QB has to be a producer of points. No one likes QB turnovers but if it comes with the amount of production/points this guy puts up each year, you accept a certain amount and move on to another issue.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
In fact, it really isn't a debate at all...
In the playoffs he is facing higher quality defenses that can tackle and keep him in the pocket. He still has a long way to go when he is not able to improvise.
Hopefully they will improve the audio and make sure we can always see and follow the game. I didn't like when they went full screen. Keep the game up at all times and sometimes I had some difficulty follow down and down and distance.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
I don't think anybody is seriously saying that they would rather have Jones than Jackson. It is more about Go Terps and his insistence that we should have drafted Lamar Jackson #2 overall and his excuses to justify worse play yesterday than Jones had on Sunday even though Jackson was facing the worse defense on paper. You can't just look at point totals.
How is Go Terps wrong though? The team would be better with Jackson and whoever else they would have taken the next year instead of Barkley and Jones.
On top of that, the post Go Terps got shit for -- that Jackson fumbles in the process of putting points on the board, which Jones does not do -- is 100% true.
Jackson has more leeway to make those mistakes (and have a game where these mistakes lead to a loss) because his play routinely has led to points and wins in the past.
Why is it so hard for Giants fans to accept that Jones has been flat out bad? Yes, we all have some degree of bias, but this is just like wilful ignorance of reality at this point.
Contrary to what people might think, I've never gotten the impression Go Terps hates Daniel Jones as a person or has questions about his personality/intangibles/work ethic (can't say the same for OBJ when Terps was making posts about his distaste for Beckham, for example). He just isn't the answer at this point though, and it's becoming exceedingly obvious.
His ceiling is Mariotta. Quite frankly, even when there was reason to be optimism about Jones after his rookie year, his ceiling always still came off to me as a better Jake Plummer. I guess that'll make people claim I "always hated Jones and want him to fail", but that couldn't be further than the truth -- I wanted nothing more than to be completely wrong, and it sucks that I have not been up to this point.
RE: RE: Tough game losing those fumbles and the game
but Jackson looked pretty damn good overall. That scramble and strike to Marquis Brown in the back of the end zone was very impressive, and exactly what you look for when you say a QB has to be a producer of points. No one likes QB turnovers but if it comes with the amount of production/points this guy puts up each year, you accept a certain amount and move on to another issue.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
In fact, it really isn't a debate at all...
In the playoffs he is facing higher quality defenses that can tackle and keep him in the pocket. He still has a long way to go when he is not able to improvise.
Yes, playoff teams are better teams. But its not logical to think he didn't play well against playoff-type teams or teams with good defenses in compiling a 30-8 regular season record as as starter. Is it?
And if he still has a long way to go then his ceiling might be pretty damn high, or are you suggesting he's at his limit? Do you think he and the coaches cannot keep developing his game further or is this all there is...30-8 records, MVPs and playoff appearances?
just to say I loved the broadcast. I actually watched the first quarter regular because the gf was using the main tv (Met Gala lol). So having missed whatever growing pains in the first quarter, I thought the broadcast was fantastic. Russ and Ray Lewis were amazing. Kelce was also good, and I didn't realize what a meathead he is. (His brother seems a lot more polished in interviews lol.)
The guests really help make it. I believe Peyton and Brady are actually somewhat friends, so hopefully we can get him for a quarter.
I also loved Eli's and Peyton's reactions when things were going poorly or bad decisions were made. It felt like watching the game with friends.
Of course there would be frustration. But the frustration Baltimore fans have is of the "how do we take that final step to a championship" variety. That is very frustrating, but you know you have a legit shot. Even with tonight's loss the Ravens are probably a playoff team... You've got to get there first before you can win a title.
That's Baltimore's struggle with Jackson as their quarterback. The Giants' struggle with Jones as their quarterback is to score 20 points in a game. The quality of the football is pathetic - the worst this organization has played in 40 years. That's not all his fault, but he's squarely in "part of the problem, not the solution" territory.
Jackson and Jones aren't in the same universe. They're barely playing the same sport. It's a joke to compare them.
This organization was bad when Gettleman took over. He took a bad team and made it worse - and that process started when he took Barkley in a draft that had Lamar Jackson in it. The really sad thing is that our six 1st rounders since 2018 put together wouldn't be enough in trade to get Jackson now. That's the level of the disaster we're currently in.
Not one time in this whole thread have I claimed that Jones and Jackson should be compared. Not once have I claimed Jones is better or that Jackson stinks. As a matter of fact I never even brought up Jones.
The whole point of my argument is that 2021 is a clean slate and is all that matters now. Given that fact, the single biggest reason as to why the Ravens lost was the two fumbles by Jackson. That can't be excused with "Well he was an MVP one year" because that has zip to do with this season. For that reason alone he should be catching all kinds of hell by those who clamor for him
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
LOL...I know a double screw-up on my part. He's 1-4 during the playoffs. My bad
Still, no. 1-3.
If Jackson had his career thus far here everyone would be going insane for him.
Oh, FFS! He'd be getting the same shit that Eli got for his playoff record after the 2006 season - 0-3, three 1 and dones, playoff choker, etc, etc. etc.
If you don't think that would be the case - well, you are even a bigger hypocrite that I thought...
I mean seriously - do you not remember how much crap Eli got? They almost ran him out of town. And the (deserved) crap he got even into the '07 season (until the light went on)? MVP notwithstanding, the would be saying the same things about Jackson. NY'ers really only care about championships...
Lamar Jackson is a much better QB than Daniel Jones.
I'd take Lamar Jackson over Daniel Jones.
I'm still making fun of Lamar Jackson when he shits the bed because it has nothing to do with the Giants and I don't need my team to be good to laugh at others.
A whole bunch of fabricated arguments on this thread which is also hilarious to watch transpire.
Greg Roman is one of the most underrated coaches in NFL History. While Lamar is very talented - he knows how to best utilize him. Jones May never be a great QB but let’s not act like Jason Garrett does him many favors either.
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In comment 15365786 santacruzom said:
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Some kind of admission that we should be equally critical of Jackson as we are with because they both made mistakes and their teams are both 0-1? You don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask do you?
With regards to this season yes indeed Jackson should be slammed for tonight's performance. Those fumbles were 100% the difference in a win or a loss
If you read recaps of the game and none of them make any mention of the fumbles you'd probably have a valid complaint.
But if your expectation is that the same percentage of Ravens fans should be as down on their QB as Giants fans are on Jones, I don't think you'll be satisfied.
That's not my point but enough about Jackson and Jones buddy!
I’ll be curious about the ratings and the feedback.
My personal opinion of Lamar: yeah he’s not always the greatest passer but he HAS shown an elite ability to convert TD passes in the red zone, which is an extremely *underrated* aspect of him. Yeah he misses throws and has things to work on, but he has a fantastic knack for getting the he ball in the end zone. Everything is tighter in the red zone and more difficult to make throws down there, but he has consistently gotten it done. Part of that is helped by his threat as a runner but the point is he has gotten the job done, while the Giants in that span have been one of the worst red zone teams in the NFL.
And seriously the comment about the fact he’s only won 1 more playoff game than Jones? Is that a serious comment? We’ll both have an equal number of Super Bowls too so I guess they’re equally as good as each other right? LOL. So Lamar got bounced in his first 2 playoffs, and then last year won his first playoff game as a road underdog @Tennessee. He’s 24 years old!! A lot of QBs take 3-4 years to even make it to their first playoff game. It’s supposed to be worse that he’s made it there and then lost? And then won just 1st playoff game at 23/24? He has plenty of room for improvement just like any 24 year old QB for fucks sakes. What is this assumption that people have that a 24 year old player is just going to be exactly what he is right now forever?
All that aside though — seriously, look at what Lamar am has done/accomplished in this league and then look at what Jones has accomplished. What is the argument here? No QB is “excused” for any interception or fumble… but even the best QBs in the league lose games and do things that specially made their team lose the game, it’s the nature of the fucking position. But look at Lamar’s resume and then look at Jones’s resume— what is the argument about here? The guy has 2 bad fumbles and loses a tough road game in week fucking 1 and there are BBIers laughing it up and erasing his entire history as an NFL player and saying Jones is equally as good or better because he also lost a fumble and lost on opening day?
What the fuck?
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
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One playoff win in 4 years on a stacked team
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
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In comment 15365810 montanagiant said:
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One playoff win in 4 years on a stacked team
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
LOL...I know a double screw-up on my part. He's 1-4 during the playoffs. My bad
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In comment 15365811 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15365810 montanagiant said:
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One playoff win in 4 years on a stacked team
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
LOL...I know a double screw-up on my part. He's 1-4 during the playoffs. My bad
Still, no. 1-3.
If Jackson had his career thus far here everyone would be going insane for him.
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In comment 15365812 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15365811 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15365810 montanagiant said:
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One playoff win in 4 years on a stacked team
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
LOL...I know a double screw-up on my part. He's 1-4 during the playoffs. My bad
Still, no. 1-3.
If Jackson had his career thus far here everyone would be going insane for him.
You honestly don't think he would be catching shit for his playoff performances? Come on now let's be real.
My breakdown was one win out of four games and I should have presented it that way instead of Win/Lose style. Sorry but if that's your whole argument it's pretty sad..LOL.
But how does that change anything? You asked what has he accomplished?" I stated ONE (1) playoff win.....Am I wrong?
Only 24 years old, 3 seasons in the league— he won a league MVP in 2019, took his team to the playoffs 3 straight years, won a road playoff game last year. Then you look at the great stats, TD:INT ratio, completion %, total TDs… we’re basically supposed to just throw all that out and call all it a wash compared to Jones because the count is just 1 playoff win to 0 playoff wins?
Winning in the regular season is an accomplishment for a young QB IMO. The playoffs are a different animal and often require experience to succeed. Players and teams as a whole take their lumps in the playoffs before growing and improving and making deeper runs later. We’ve seen plenty of young QBs have success in the regular season and then struggle in their first few playoff appearances (Eli being one of them)— the point is that regular season success for a young QB usually means postseason success will come in time. But because Lamar has an unorthodox style it’s easier for you to paint this narrative that “he doesn’t win in the playoffs because his style of play will never win championships” even though the more likely scenario is he’s just a young QB who was still taking his early-career playoff lumps.
I think it explains why even though he had a less impressive 2020 regular season compared to his 2019 MVP season, he clearly took a stop forward in the 2020 playoffs winning a road playoff game as an underdog. (A *much less glorious version* of Mahomes having a less impressive 2019 regular season compared to his 2018 MVP season, but clearly showing more maturity in the 2019 playoffs and winning a super bowl.)
Speaking of which— This almost sounds similar to if you were to say after the 2018 season: “well the Chiefs were already a playoff team the year before Mahomes took over, and then all Mahomes did was win 1 playoff game in his first year on a stacked team— so what’s all the hype about? Did he really accomplish anything of value.” Like, we aren’t allowed to get in excited about him throwing 50 TDs in his first year starting? Winning MVP means nothing apparently according to your post above. I’ve never seen someone scoff so condescendingly at a league MVP by a 2nd year player lol.
The past is usually our best indicator of what will happen in the future— and if a player is consistently good in the regular season we can reasonably expect that will someday translate to the playoffs, unless they’re just an absolute choke artist but I don’t think we know that by 24 years old about a guy. And No— the answer then isn’t “well If the past is an indicator of the future— can’t we expect him to lose more playoff games?” No, because 1-3 is not a large enough sample size, and we know young QBs often struggle in the playoffs early in their career. But 37 regular season games is enough of a sample size to know a guy can flat out PLAY. Being able to play football well usually bodes well for winning playoff games eventually (believe it or not) so I think that’s why people tend to, ya know, CARE about how a guy has actually played and how many games he’s won as opposed to just looking at the fact he’s only won 1 playoff game by the age of 24 and writing him off as an unaccomplished scrub.
Only 24 years old, 3 seasons in the league— he won a league MVP in 2019, took his team to the playoffs 3 straight years, won a road playoff game last year. Then you look at the great stats, TD:INT ratio, completion %, total TDs… we’re basically supposed to just throw all that out and call all it a wash compared to Jones because the count is just 1 playoff win to 0 playoff wins?
Winning in the regular season is an accomplishment for a young QB IMO. The playoffs are a different animal and often require experience to succeed. Players and teams as a whole take their lumps in the playoffs before growing and improving and making deeper runs later. We’ve seen plenty of young QBs have success in the regular season and then struggle in their first few playoff appearances (Eli being one of them)— the point is that regular season success for a young QB usually means postseason success will come in time. But because Lamar has an unorthodox style it’s easier for you to paint this narrative that “he doesn’t win in the playoffs because his style of play will never win championships” even though the more likely scenario is he’s just a young QB who was still taking his early-career playoff lumps.
I think it explains why even though he had a less impressive 2020 regular season compared to his 2019 MVP season, he clearly took a stop forward in the 2020 playoffs winning a road playoff game as an underdog. (A *much less glorious version* of Mahomes having a less impressive 2019 regular season compared to his 2018 MVP season, but clearly showing more maturity in the 2019 playoffs and winning a super bowl.)
Speaking of which— This almost sounds similar to if you were to say after the 2018 season: “well the Chiefs were already a playoff team the year before Mahomes took over, and then all Mahomes did was win 1 playoff game in his first year on a stacked team— so what’s all the hype about? Did he really accomplish anything of value.” Like, we aren’t allowed to get in excited about him throwing 50 TDs in his first year starting? Winning MVP means nothing apparently according to your post above. I’ve never seen someone scoff so condescendingly at a league MVP by a 2nd year player lol.
The past is usually our best indicator of what will happen in the future— and if a player is consistently good in the regular season we can reasonably expect that will someday translate to the playoffs, unless they’re just an absolute choke artist but I don’t think we know that by 24 years old about a guy. And No— the answer then isn’t “well If the past is an indicator of the future— can’t we expect him to lose more playoff games?” No, because 1-3 is not a large enough sample size, and we know young QBs often struggle in the playoffs early in their career. But 37 regular season games is enough of a sample size to know a guy can flat out PLAY. Being able to play football well usually bodes well for winning playoff games eventually (believe it or not) so I think that’s why people tend to, ya know, CARE about how a guy has actually played and how many games he’s won as opposed to just looking at the fact he’s only won 1 playoff game by the age of 24 and writing him off as an unaccomplished scrub.
Leg, I see your point and realize that it is valid when taken into an overall context. But my single point in this thread is for 2021 his play was a direct reason as to why the Ravens lost. The other aspect that should always be taken into context with Lamar is that he went to a team that had a truly solid foundation for winning football games. Comparing the two players should always include that aspect.
But with regards to this first weekend he is the number 1 reason why they lost tonight and that IMO should not be ignored
That's Baltimore's struggle with Jackson as their quarterback. The Giants' struggle with Jones as their quarterback is to score 20 points in a game. The quality of the football is pathetic - the worst this organization has played in 40 years. That's not all his fault, but he's squarely in "part of the problem, not the solution" territory.
Jackson and Jones aren't in the same universe. They're barely playing the same sport. It's a joke to compare them.
This organization was bad when Gettleman took over. He took a bad team and made it worse - and that process started when he took Barkley in a draft that had Lamar Jackson in it. The really sad thing is that our six 1st rounders since 2018 put together wouldn't be enough in trade to get Jackson now. That's the level of the disaster we're currently in.
That said, no one player loses a game, and just like with any QB, you still have to look at the full game. He touches the ball every play and even makes up a massive part of the their running game, so he’s going to be directly responsible for many of their good plays within the game and responsible for many of their bad plays. You look at his stats:
19/30 (63.3% comp%)
235 yards
1 TD
0 INT
+ 12 rushes for 86 yards
That’s a pretty damn good game. And on top of that, his threat running the ball and the defense having to account for that also contributes to the run game being successful overall (34 carries for 189 yards by the team in total, 2 TDs, 5.6 ypc). So in a sense he was directly responsible for putting his team in a position to win so that he could be directly responsible for them losing it with those 2 costly fumbles.
Like with any QB, you have to take the good with the bad. Every QB makes good plays and bad plays in a game. In the end— If they’d had a different QB tonight would they have won? We really don’t know, and it Depends on the QB— That said, I would personally conclude that given those 2 turnovers came at very bad times, this WAS INDEED in the end a bad game for Lamar ( solidified by the fact they ultimately lost).
….But that said— it was one game. The 2021 season “today” that you just mentioned is only 1 game old. They’re 0-1. But going by their record since Lamar took over? We can reasonably expect them to win 13 of their next 16 games and finish 13-4 (81% win % coming into this season). Yes he had a bad game, but again it’s one game. If Mahomes were to lose 2 fumbles yesterday and ultimately lose that game to the Browns, I don’t think we’d be having this same discussion emphasizing the fact that “we need to make sure we properly blame Pat Mahomes for the fact HE lost the game for the Chiefs yesterday.” Like, I think in that case it would be obvious he was at fault for losing the game, but I don’t think that one game and those 2 fumbles would be leading us to having these in depth discussions about how much value he really brings to the Chiefs.
It sounds like (and I don’t want to put words in your mouth) you assume the Ravens would have just always been a position to win this game even if they had a very average QB out there, because they have a “winning culture,” but I personally don’t think I’d take that for granted. I think the Raiders were tough to beat tonight. And I think the Ravens are thoroughly built around Lamar at this point and it has proven to be a winning formula for them (yes, in the regular season), and while some overrate him I believe he brings a lot of winning value that is at times underrated (for instance— just a defense having to scheme for this offense every week is reportedly just a nightmare).
It’s not even like Lamar has a bad W/L record but racks up great stats, nor is he a guy who wins but has very less than stellar numbers. Look at his stats. He puts up great numbers AND he also wins a lot. The criticism comes in when looking at his playoff resume. But again I think MOST other QBs at 24 years old would get a pass for being 1-3 in the playoffs if they were putting up the regular season wins and stats that Lamar has consistently had. I think the fact he’s an unconventional QB is what leads people to want to read deeper into these things, and why people are quick to take a bad playoff game or even just a bad opening day REGULAR SEASON game and want to draw conclusions about why his style of play will never “succeed.” IDK just seems that way to me at least.
Wait until Baltimore has to pay Lamar. He’s gonna want Allen money (not here to say whether he deserves it or not…) but if they can’t win it with him on a rookie deal - it will be tougher to win it all with him as the highest paid player in football.
Not getting into the Jackson/Jones raging debate but I do think Jackson's throwing mechanics and leg positions have dramatically improved since his first year in the NFL.
Over and out
BTW, Lamar Jackson has greatly improved as a passer. He looked very good. Gonna get big bucks from someone.
BTW, Lamar Jackson has greatly improved as a passer. He looked very good. Gonna get big bucks from someone.
Really? Through the first three quarters I saw a lot of throws way off target.
<Back to you guys arguing about literally anything>
<Back to you guys arguing about literally anything>
Lol so true on both points
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
As for people stating in writing that Jones is in any way comparable to Lamar Jackson, well, I thought I'd seen it all.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
In fact, it really isn't a debate at all...
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
BBI can't give any other QB credit. This is even worse than the Dak discussion after the Cowboys-Bucs game.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
I don't think anybody is seriously saying that they would rather have Jones than Jackson. It is more about Go Terps and his insistence that we should have drafted Lamar Jackson #2 overall and his excuses to justify worse play yesterday than Jones had on Sunday even though Jackson was facing the worse defense on paper. You can't just look at point totals.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
In fact, it really isn't a debate at all...
In the playoffs he is facing higher quality defenses that can tackle and keep him in the pocket. He still has a long way to go when he is not able to improvise.
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Hopefully they will improve the audio and make sure we can always see and follow the game. I didn't like when they went full screen. Keep the game up at all times and sometimes I had some difficulty follow down and down and distance.
But I'll watch them instead of the main feed every time they do this.
Off topic I can't believe there's a debate about Daniel Jones vs Lamar Jackson. Can you imagine the looks you would get if you walked into a bar in Chicago, who has no rooting interest in this fight, and asked 100 people in that bar which QB they would choose for the Bears? I'm thinking 95 of them would just laugh while they quickly picked Jackson and the other 5 would pick Jackson too. Only Giants fans. Gotta love us.
I don't think anybody is seriously saying that they would rather have Jones than Jackson. It is more about Go Terps and his insistence that we should have drafted Lamar Jackson #2 overall and his excuses to justify worse play yesterday than Jones had on Sunday even though Jackson was facing the worse defense on paper. You can't just look at point totals.
On top of that, the post Go Terps got shit for -- that Jackson fumbles in the process of putting points on the board, which Jones does not do -- is 100% true.
Jackson has more leeway to make those mistakes (and have a game where these mistakes lead to a loss) because his play routinely has led to points and wins in the past.
Why is it so hard for Giants fans to accept that Jones has been flat out bad? Yes, we all have some degree of bias, but this is just like wilful ignorance of reality at this point.
Contrary to what people might think, I've never gotten the impression Go Terps hates Daniel Jones as a person or has questions about his personality/intangibles/work ethic (can't say the same for OBJ when Terps was making posts about his distaste for Beckham, for example). He just isn't the answer at this point though, and it's becoming exceedingly obvious.
His ceiling is Mariotta. Quite frankly, even when there was reason to be optimism about Jones after his rookie year, his ceiling always still came off to me as a better Jake Plummer. I guess that'll make people claim I "always hated Jones and want him to fail", but that couldn't be further than the truth -- I wanted nothing more than to be completely wrong, and it sucks that I have not been up to this point.
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but Jackson looked pretty damn good overall. That scramble and strike to Marquis Brown in the back of the end zone was very impressive, and exactly what you look for when you say a QB has to be a producer of points. No one likes QB turnovers but if it comes with the amount of production/points this guy puts up each year, you accept a certain amount and move on to another issue.
Other teams know how to shut him down and stop him in the playoffs? Jackson has a 30-8 record as a starter in the regular season and won an MVP...do teams not try to shut him down in the regular season or are you saying he is just a "choker" in big games? What is his problem that cannot be overcome?
Suggesting Daniel Jones > Lamar Jackson isn't really that interesting a debate at this point in their respective careers.
In fact, it really isn't a debate at all...
In the playoffs he is facing higher quality defenses that can tackle and keep him in the pocket. He still has a long way to go when he is not able to improvise.
Yes, playoff teams are better teams. But its not logical to think he didn't play well against playoff-type teams or teams with good defenses in compiling a 30-8 regular season record as as starter. Is it?
And if he still has a long way to go then his ceiling might be pretty damn high, or are you suggesting he's at his limit? Do you think he and the coaches cannot keep developing his game further or is this all there is...30-8 records, MVPs and playoff appearances?
Maybe, but that is a different topic.
And if true, imagine what would happen to Giants if Daniel Jones' cap allocation goes up materially on a second deal...
The guests really help make it. I believe Peyton and Brady are actually somewhat friends, so hopefully we can get him for a quarter.
I also loved Eli's and Peyton's reactions when things were going poorly or bad decisions were made. It felt like watching the game with friends.
That's Baltimore's struggle with Jackson as their quarterback. The Giants' struggle with Jones as their quarterback is to score 20 points in a game. The quality of the football is pathetic - the worst this organization has played in 40 years. That's not all his fault, but he's squarely in "part of the problem, not the solution" territory.
Jackson and Jones aren't in the same universe. They're barely playing the same sport. It's a joke to compare them.
This organization was bad when Gettleman took over. He took a bad team and made it worse - and that process started when he took Barkley in a draft that had Lamar Jackson in it. The really sad thing is that our six 1st rounders since 2018 put together wouldn't be enough in trade to get Jackson now. That's the level of the disaster we're currently in.
Not one time in this whole thread have I claimed that Jones and Jackson should be compared. Not once have I claimed Jones is better or that Jackson stinks. As a matter of fact I never even brought up Jones.
The whole point of my argument is that 2021 is a clean slate and is all that matters now. Given that fact, the single biggest reason as to why the Ravens lost was the two fumbles by Jackson. That can't be excused with "Well he was an MVP one year" because that has zip to do with this season. For that reason alone he should be catching all kinds of hell by those who clamor for him
Not one person has claimed the other. Your point?
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next question please.
Not one person has claimed the other. Your point?
I completely misread your post. Please ignore my response
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In comment 15365812 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15365811 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15365810 montanagiant said:
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One playoff win in 4 years on a stacked team
I was actually too optimistic. He is 0-2 in the Playoffs
Actually, no.
LOL...I know a double screw-up on my part. He's 1-4 during the playoffs. My bad
Still, no. 1-3.
If Jackson had his career thus far here everyone would be going insane for him.
Oh, FFS! He'd be getting the same shit that Eli got for his playoff record after the 2006 season - 0-3, three 1 and dones, playoff choker, etc, etc. etc.
If you don't think that would be the case - well, you are even a bigger hypocrite that I thought...
I mean seriously - do you not remember how much crap Eli got? They almost ran him out of town. And the (deserved) crap he got even into the '07 season (until the light went on)? MVP notwithstanding, the would be saying the same things about Jackson. NY'ers really only care about championships...
I'd take Lamar Jackson over Daniel Jones.
I'm still making fun of Lamar Jackson when he shits the bed because it has nothing to do with the Giants and I don't need my team to be good to laugh at others.
A whole bunch of fabricated arguments on this thread which is also hilarious to watch transpire.
Yep, it typically starts with a poster or two making comments looking to instigate just like this thread
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And blew it up into one of this biggest mismatched football arguments of all time. This place has gotten mind boggling.
Yep, it typically starts with a poster or two making comments looking to instigate just like this thread
You have to install the secret ignore feature - once you have that in there you can bypass the noise. Its a Chrome add on.
I'm picky with my ignore features.